Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 19, 2020

False Claims About The Novel Coronavirus And How To Debunk Them

Today China reported zero new domestic cases of novel coronavirus infections. It has beaten the epidemic just as we predicted early on. Other countries with still expanding epidemics will have to adopt all the measures China has taken to also win the fight.

Our extensive reporting about the novel cornonavirus has attracted many new commentators to this site. Unfortunately some of these, as well as some of the regulars, continue to spread disinformation and myths about the current pandemic and its causes.

To keep some level of quality at this site requires an aggressive countering of such comments. But our capacity to do so is limited. We do delete comments that are nonsensical or have been debunked and we do block people who insist on posting or reposting nonsense. But there are now many more comments per day than we can read. We therefore have to ask other commentators to counter the bad false ones.

Here are some of the false claims that are made about the pandemic and the facts needed to debunk them.


The novel coronavirus SARS-CoV-2 is a Chinese virus that comes from bats. It infected people because Chinese people eat bats.


The source of the virus is actually not known. The patient number 1, the person who first carried the virus, has not been found. The Wuhan wet market where exotic animals are sold was not the source of the outbreak:

The paper, written by a large group of Chinese researchers from several institutions, offers details about the first 41 hospitalized patients who had confirmed infections with what has been dubbed 2019 novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV). In the earliest case, the patient became ill on 1 December 2019 and had no reported link to the seafood market, the authors report. “No epidemiological link was found between the first patient and later cases,” they state. Their data also show that, in total, 13 of the 41 cases had no link to the marketplace. “That’s a big number, 13, with no link,” says Daniel Lucey, an infectious disease specialist at Georgetown University.

While the novel corona virus might be one that was originally carried by bats it is unlikely to have jumped from a bat to a human. The older SARS virus, which is somewhat similar to the novel coronavirus, originated from bats but first spread to other animals before mutating from there into a form that infects humans.

The only place where bats are regularly used as food is the Pacific island Palau which is more or less a U.S. colony. Videos showing Chinese citizens eating fruit bat soup were actually filmed on that island.


The virus is related to HIV, the virus that causes aids.


Some Indian researchers found four genome sequences in the novel coronavirus that can also be found in the HIV virus. They self published their findings in a paper that was not peer reviewed. We discussed that paper in detail on February 1 in our second post on the virus and we strongly expressed our doubt about its veracity. A few days later the paper was retracted by its authors after other scientists had pointed out that the lengths of each of the four sequences they had compared were way too small to be of statistical significance.


Asian people are genetically more receptive for the novel coronavirus.


The virus enters human cells by binding to the ACE-2 receptor on the cells hull. There were assertions that people in Asia have more ACE-2 receptors than people elsewhere. But detailed studies of various genome sequence databases have found no statistical basis for such claims. People of Asian, Caucasian or African heritage all have the same numbers of ACE-2 building elements and receptors. The virus will effect them equally.


The virus originated from a military weapon research laboratory.


There is zero evidence that the virus is from a Chinese or U.S. or other (weapon) laboratory and the claim actually makes no sense. The genome of the virus consists of more then 23,000 'letters'. It is significantly different than the genome of other known viruses. (Added:) It is not lab made:

We offer a perspective on the notable features of the SARS-CoV-2 genome and discuss scenarios by which they could have arisen. Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.

To artificially create such a complex entity and to test all its variants would have been a program of the size of the Manhattan project and would have cost billions.

Weapon researchers are sane people with a limited budget. They look for methods to defeat an enemy. A virus that affects all humans indiscriminately but kills mostly very old ones would have no military value.


Moon of Alabama has downplayed the danger of the virus.


Our first post on the issue was headlined The Coronavirus - No Need To Panic. It discussed the infectiousness and fatality rate of the novel coronavirus disease in comparison to other virus caused diseases. We pointed out that it is less infectious and less deadly than for example SARS but never said that it is not dangerous at all. In fact the numbers we pointed out said the opposite.

The piece simple put the current epidemic into perspective. We have since posted a total of 15 detailed pieces on the pandemic. To claim that this is a downplaying of the issue is nonsensical.

Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 19, 2020 at 12:19 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

Pollution; The Po river contains some of the worst waste from industrial pig farms upriver..

I must agree with RJPJR | Mar 19 2020 19:59 utc | 159 that "Germ weapons researchers are anything but sane! They are world-class psychopaths, just like those who dream of waging and winning a nuclear war."

In fact apart from the five labs in the US and the 17 they also have in "other" countries, any major country with an armed force seems to have their own personal labs; US, UK, China, Russia, France, Israel, Canada, Germany. etc. Possibly they are all considerered "leak proof". Well, almost "leak proof". But what about other labs, undeclared by wannabe dictators, that may not be up to the same standards? So there must be many groups working hard to find the best way to kill off humanity, either in bits or altogether. This cannot be considered sane by any reference.

They are very similar to the "atomic/nuclear" scientists before the MAD doctrine became accepted. These "scientists/experts" were proudly claiming that they could kill everyone in the world 15 times over. Overkill. Almost like a game in which you could get "zapped" 14 times before you were really dead. Multiple resurrections guaranteed. It was only when someone pointed out the stupidity of their attitude that people began to really think. (Think I am exaggerating,? Well yes, they only got as far as anticipating killing every living thing on the planet ten times over, not 15. Much better, almost human)

By trying to "debunk" the idea that the coronavirus could have come from a military unit, b is doing us a defavour, as this will stop people questioning exactly why there are thousands of ant-brains being paid to find ways to kill thousands of innocent people. (or millions if the blunder is big enough.)

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 19 2020 21:53 utc | 201

No specific vulnerability of East Asians?

"The East Asian populations have much higher AFs in the eQTL variants associated with higher ACE2 expression in tissues (Fig. 1c), which may suggest different susceptibility or response to 2019-nCoV/SARS-CoV-2 from different populations under the similar conditions."

This is a "we do not know yet", not a "we can exclude".

No lab-generated strain?

The Furin docking cleavage site has not been found yet in any other beta-CoV strain, it is only known from other completely different viruses and seem to be related there with being highly contagious. In adition, a recent study found a third docking option via GRP78 expressions on the cell surface (usually by cells experiencing stress), . This is already two strange features more compared to SARS and MERS.

There is only a "there is no proof, neither a direct hint found yet", not a "we can exclude", but a mere belief.

Most irritating is that there is are not intermediate or other similar strains found yet, and that there is a strange pattern of first occurences in the early phase in Wuhan (and probably also in the US). We still have no sound explanation how it came into existence, not even some plausible facts suggesting a pathway. Given the technical capabilities since 15 years, the multitude of stakeholders working on gene editing, for vaccine research also on dangerous stains, and some irritating cui bono issues, it is too early to discard some suspicions already. The scope of potential perpetrators (by accident or intentionally with a not expected outcome) is broad and - given the very intransparent transnational companies - quite opaque. In issues of global security and extreme relevance for humanity, transparency should be enforced and secrecy for corporate interests should not be tolerated in such cases.

Anyway, most important now is to mitigate the ongoing desaster, we should only not forget some issues for later investigation.

Posted by: Kassandra | Mar 19 2020 22:00 utc | 202

Thanks b, for your excellent posts.

In the bigger scheme of things, it matters not a whit whether the virus originated in a human or natural laboratory. Human civilization has "progressed" to a state of massive human and animal overcrowding, vastly decreased biological diversity, where capitalist priests have wasted life-saving anti-biotics on animals bred in horrific gulags and flooded the environment with immune system suppressing hormones and toxic chemicals.

All of which makes a perfect petri dish for pandemics. You ain't seen nothing yet.

Posted by: Trisha | Mar 19 2020 22:01 utc | 203


How many countries are looking at bio weapons as a way to kill is difficult to guess at, but in most things most of the big players apart from one try and live up to agreements treaties they have made, conventions they have signed etc.
With just one rogue play, it is critical all others research this shit for defence, even if they have no intention of building a weapon to use.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 22:01 utc | 204

@187 Wagwan Likkklemore, inna lockdown in Marrakech. State of Emergency starts tomorrow:

Me right now:

Musical choice right now:

But this is not about me or my difference of opinions with jr:

@188 JR. At least have the merit of not being the bar's Magistrate on what is or not admissible. That is b's role..

Posted by: Lozion | Mar 19 2020 22:15 utc | 205


you have a very good memory. I hadn't thought of Seveso for a good long time. This happened just after the birth of my son and we were a bit concerned even though we lived more than 200 kms to the east.

years ago Milano had a lot of smog, there was a constant yellow cloud above the city you could see from far away. Another really stinky city was Marghera which is just outside Venice, they had a lot of chemical processing plants there as well. Milan is much much better now and Marghera seems to have either really cleaned up their act or shut down completely.

We also have a pretty high incidence of cancer here in northern Italy....I seem to remember that one out of every three deaths is from cancer.

but it is still pretty nice...maybe not as nice as where John lives in Perugia. Umbria is for me the best there is and they don't seem to have all this pollution stuff either. nor has the corona hit them as hard

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 19 2020 22:17 utc | 206

Try this on for size...

The virus got out of the lab at Fort Detrick, which is why it was shut down. At least one person -- probably more -- was contaminated.

Since Fort Detrick is a military lab, it is reasonable to suppose the infected were military personnel who infected others.

Since the asymptomatic incubation period can last up to several weeks, one can then assume that somebody among the infected took it to Wuhan during the World Military Games without anybody realizing what was happening.

Wuhan had just turned on 5G.

The Swiss parliament refused the legislation authorizing the implementation of G5 because of an intense campaign against it by the Swiss Medical Association (Fédération médicale helvétique -- FMH). One of the proven harmful effects of G5 millimeter wave radiation is on the lungs: up to 80% loss of oxygen uptake. (Remember, COVID-19 is NOT a flu but a lung infection.) This would explain why the virus spread so rapidly there and caused such death.

I do not believe the Chinese government figures, for they have too many reasons to want to minimize the outbreak, and there is coherent and credible evidence that there were hundreds of thousands of deaths -- one hundred times the official figures.

The Chinese were not expecting this and were caught off guard, hence the slowness of their approach.

Northern Italy, one of the richest regions in Europe (and the entire world) has Chinese industrial projects there with Chinese working there. Italy goes into low gear for the end-of-year holidays, which means that the Chinese would have gone home for that time and come back in January, after Chinese new year -- just in time to start infecting the local Lombardian population.

Iran, under server sanctions, also has major projects under way with China, with Chinese working there. They, too, would have wanted to go home for the new year.

The difference of the virus strains could easily be explained by mutation, but they have all been traced back to the U.S.

I suspect that the Trump Administration's response to the escaped virus was to deny it. (They have shown themselves to be good at this sort of thing.) Johns Hopkins, the Gates Foundation and the World Economic Forum people were willing to acknowledge the seriousness of the threat that it posed and organized Event 201 to try to plan, just in case...

Trump & C° had to admit that it was serious, but the meetings under the auspices of Health and Human Services were held in secret -- more hiding, more hoping...

If ones watches Trump carefully, it is obvious that he is terrified. (He looks like he is barely sleeping. Is he infected? He's something of a hypochondriac.)

The financial melt-down, I believe, was not planned, but it was coming. Most serious analysts who work within or are closely connected to the insiders, seemed to be taking for granted that a "market correction" was coming but not until after the election. Given that Trump has constantly trumpeted how the United States economy is in great shape, this makes sense -- it's been his ace in hand.

Now that it is underway, we can only wait and see how it plays out, for the slide of the Dow Jones Average may bottom out after all (I'm not betting on it happening for a while). In any event, it is not the collapse such as we saw in Octobet 1987 or in September 2008 but a slide, with a distinct downward trend.

This exposes the utter bankruptcy of the United States' unhealthcase system and the utter ineptness and profiteering (corruption) inherent in the system overall.

Posted by: RJPJR | Mar 19 2020 22:17 utc | 207

Posted by: Laguerre | Mar 19 2020 18:36 utc | 111

My guess would be that the virus has been spread by Chinese business people (and tourists) since November. That would explain Italy and it would explain Iran. For some reason Iran does not shut down the country the way China did.
The large amount of deaths in Italy is strange - either the real number of infected people is much larger than assumed, or they are doing something wrong in their hospitals or it is a different mutation of the Virus.

By the way, Angela Merkel did not say this
Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 19 2020 21:45 utc | 198
"could leave Germany in worse conditions than after WWII"

She called the situation "the biggest challenge since WWII" which is a different thing altogether but - I agree - still silly.

I think the speech writer was ordered to write some Churchill "blood, sweat and tears" stuff so s/he came up with this. To call WWII "a challenge" is the understatement of the last century, as I seem to remember people in Germany talking about experiences like watching people freeze to death, starve or being bombed or shot, never mind other ways of getting killed. Dying of a disease was too insignificant to get mentioned in the reports of this "challenge".

Posted by: somebody | Mar 19 2020 22:20 utc | 208

An interesting story at Common Dreams
"A look at financial records reveal that Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Sen. Richard Burr last month—just as he was big-dollar donors, but not the general public about the looming threat of the coronavirus—personal stock holdings worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, many of them in industries now seriously impacted by the outbreak..."

".....In an audio recording obtained by NPR, the North Carolina Republican was heard telling donors at a luncheon on Feb. 27 that the coronavirus, officially called COVID-19, would likely spread through the population aggressively—and suggested it could kill hundreds of thousands of people.

"It is much more aggressive in its transmission than anything that we have seen in recent history," Burr said.

"It is probably more akin to the 1918 pandemic," he added, referring to the flu pandemic which killed more than 600,000 Americans...."
There is audio here

Posted by: bevin | Mar 19 2020 22:32 utc | 209

@206 RJPJR Thank you for articulating some of my thoughts, am too exhausted for eloquence..

Posted by: Lozion | Mar 19 2020 22:36 utc | 210

I must admit I like the idea of some sick-of-humanity scientist or other nutcase releasing this pandemic, but I think it might have more to do with solar minimum and the increase of cosmic rays.

sunspot cycle minima and pandemics

Posted by: David Shinn | Mar 19 2020 22:38 utc | 211

@ 204 lozion.. i hope that works out for you stuck in morocco for the moment! i am enjoying the music track you shared.. thanks!

@ 205 dan of steele.. thanks for the update on all that.. i recall you are in venice from a previous post.. that link of the event in 1976 is pretty shocking.. i agree with peter au. claiming the death rate of covid 19 in italy is based off pollution is crap..

@ 209 bevin.. interesting audio find that npr has.. that gives some credence to jackrabbits view that the empire is using this for malevolent purposes.. either that, or why didn't they impose the self isolation and closing over everything sooner??

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2020 22:38 utc | 212


Not that you'll care what I have to say, since you're so far into the hole for the CCP you'll never get out (I don't think you're any kind of 50 cent hasbara type though; you strike me as a completely genuine useful idiot).

But another interpretation of what is going on here is that the Party is just offering up some people low on the food chain to put blame on.

Regardless, even if it was entirely the fault of local authorities, the fact that their first reaction was to 'admonish' Li Wenliang, and then force him to sign a false confession, is in and of itself damning of the Chinese system. Suppression and thought control is so embedded in the system that the local elements automatically engaged in it when confronted with a problem. That's a much deeper seated problem than just the Central Committee being assholes.

Posted by: Benjamin | Mar 19 2020 22:38 utc | 213

@ 206 RJPJR quote "Northern Italy, one of the richest regions in Europe (and the entire world) has Chinese industrial projects there with Chinese working there. Italy goes into low gear for the end-of-year holidays, which means that the Chinese would have gone home for that time and come back in January, after Chinese new year -- just in time to start infecting the local Lombardian population." that is what i was thinking having visited northern italy and noticing how many chinese own the businesses in places like sienna and venice... thanks for putting that into words..

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2020 22:40 utc | 214

Here is the patent application filed in 2004 showing that the virus was invented in a lab:

Posted by: Bongocero | Mar 19 2020 22:41 utc | 215

Really, it is hard stop thinking this was a preplanned event...

Wall Street is pressuring key healthcare firms to hike prices over the coronavirus crisis. Audio here of bankers asking drug companies, firms supplying N95 masks & ventilators, to figure out how to profit from the Covid-19 emergency.

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 19 2020 22:43 utc | 216

Today's Keiser Report declares petrodollar and fiat dollar dead and announces the world will need to have a confab to arrange a new commercial currency or currency basket. Other interesting food for thought's discussed. The 2nd half interview is with a metals broker who says we must demand physical delivery instead of paper because the derivatives aren't properly reflecting physical price. An item from Shadowstats's Daily Update, "the February 2020 Cass Freight Index® Continued in Annual Decline for the 15th Straight Month, Down by 7.5% (-7.5%)," further ongoing confirmation that we've actually been in a recession for at least that long.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 19 2020 22:50 utc | 217

Hmmm... would TPTB like to shut down any 'unhelpful' websites? (Don't they always....note their ham-fisted effort with 'propornot' et al) Does the current 'security' hysteria give them an unimpeachable opportunity? Would it be wise for MoA to pre-emptively 'cya' with this post by B?
BTW - 'they' might not be the smartest knives in the drawer... but they surely know how to hire the best... note where the STEM geniuses went in the 80's etc... to Wall Street. I'm glad B put it up.

Posted by: Nancy | Mar 19 2020 22:50 utc | 218

@Lozion 204

UWI offers a remedial - it's " gwaan." one love -
di muzik irie. Stay safe,
little Justin ordered your return. Did you not get the text message from .gov?

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 19 2020 22:57 utc | 219

Thank you for that breath of sanity. Since we will see more nonsense promulgated, perhaps you could make this a weekly feature?

In the meantime, could Iagainn ask knowledgeable readers to help answer any of these questions?

As far as I can determine, none of them have been publicly addressed:

1. When was patient zero detected in the US? 
2. What are the names of the hospitals that detected Covid-19 earliest?  
3. How many people are infected? 
4. After WHO issued a Red Alert January 1, why were US health authorities forbidden (per NYT) to test for Covid-19 until March?
5. Why does the CDC classify its coronavirus deliberations?
6. Why are Coronavirus meetings at HHS held in Sensitive Compartmentalized Information Facilities, which are usually reserved for intelligence and military operations?

Posted by: Godfree Roberts | Mar 19 2020 23:01 utc | 220

@ Posted by: Benjamin | Mar 19 2020 22:38 utc | 213

It wasn't the central government which forced the dr. to sign the admonition letter, it was the local police. A bunch of policemen without advanced education did that - it wasn't like the entire CCP fell over the dr.

When the central government became aware of the situation, it was already too late to stop it from being a pandemic.

Besides, the dr. never sought the authorities. He just shared it with a group of ten friends in a private chat. He never warned the authorities - and suggested his friends to not do so because it was only circumstancial evidence.

Either way, the seafood market where the dr. saw the people with symptoms wasn't ground zero, so, even if he had warned, and even if the local government had believed him warned the central government, it would be too late.

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2020 23:04 utc | 221

In the wake of the coronavirus outbreak, investors who bought “pandemic bonds” from the World Bank in 2017 are set to lose hundreds of millions of dollars.

Posted by: Mao | Mar 19 2020 23:07 utc | 222

Nancy @218

Capitalism's immune system is building up to the equivalent of a cytokine storm, so I believe our host's move is definitely warranted. In fact, this is a serious enough issue that those of us voicing strong skepticism of the official narrative might want to consider lowering our profile slightly and making our points with more circuitous and ambiguous language. I'm considering toning things down because as Wally says, belaboring the point right now doesn't serve a very productive purpose.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 19 2020 23:13 utc | 223

It seems people here don't understand the concept of "burden of proof".

Burden of proof arives from a logical necessity. If you treat every hypothesis existent in the universe for which there are no scientific evidence as a priori true, the it would mean they are all true at the same time. The same if you treat them as all false.

That, of course, would be a logical fallacy, since contradictory hypotheses would be true or false at the same time.

That's why the absence of evidence the SARS CoV-2 isn't a bioweapon doesn't make it a bioweapon. Since we don't know that, that would make, by the same logic, it a bioweapon and a not-bioweapon at the same time. It is the same fallacy of religion: you can't prove God doesn't exist (and you really can't, since God is a metaphysical concept, not a physical one), therefore it must exist in the eyes of the religious.

Except that, in the case here, there is strong evidence the SARS CoV-2 is fruit of evolution, so I don't even know why people are bringing the opposite hypothesis here without even a hint of evidence.

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2020 23:17 utc | 224

“Some Indian researchers found four genome sequences in the novel coronavirus that can also be found in the HIV virus. They self published their findings in a paper that was not peer reviewed. We discussed that paper in detail on February 1 in our second post on the virus and we strongly expressed our doubt about its veracity. A few days later the paper was retracted by its authors after other scientists had pointed out that the lengths of each of the four sequences they had compared were way too small to be of statistical significance.”

The authors retracted the study temporarily to allow it to be peer reviewed. They did not concede their results were insignificant. The stated reason for retracting the study from one of the authors is because the study was being used to promote conspiracy theories that the virus was intentionally released as weapon since they made no such contention

“Asian people are not more genetically receptive for the novel coronavirus.”

Yet the study you linked to states “The East Asian populations have much higher AFs in the eQTL variants associated with higher ACE2 expression in tissues (Fig. 1c), which may suggest different susceptibility or response to 2019-nCoV/SARS-CoV-2 from different populations under the similar conditions.”

There is zero evidence that the virus is from a Chinese or U.S. or other (weapon) laboratory and the claim actually makes no sense. The genome of the virus consists of more then 23,000 'letters'. It is significantly different than the genome of other known viruses.”

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Actually, its pretty similar to the bat virus found in 2013 as reported by Shi Zheng Li in January , 2020. And the key word is “known”. How stupid would you have you have to be to publish the sequence data in public papers of the exact virus that will be used as a weapon before unleashing the virus. Shi Zhengli was involved in gain of function research for over a decade working with Ralph Baric at UNC on some research.

If you look at the research thats been done on corona viruses gain of function and corona virus/ebola/zika virus vaccines you run into the same names a lot, Chinese scientists like Shi Zhengli, American scientists like Ralph Baric of UNC, Wuhan institute of Virology/BSL-4 lab, ,Duke University and USAMRIID, both of which has ties with Wuhan University-Institute of Medical Virology all funded by USAMRIID, DARPA, NIAD, BARDA, NIH , chinese military, chinese CDC, Bill Gates (WHO, Event 201, AMC, CEPI) , and various vaccine makers such as Innovio, Moderna, NanoViricides, etc, often in collaboration with each other. George Gao of China CDC attended Event 201.

Look close at Project Bioshield-The Department of Homeland Security uses intelligence reports to decide which diseases and biological threats are considered "material," or realistic threats to US security. It then refers these findings to Health and Human Services (HHS), which determines whether it's necessary for the government to order new drugs from pharmaceutical companies to combat the threats.

A funding agency within HHS called the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA) hands out lucrative contracts for research, parts of which can be paid up front.

The parent agency (HHS) in charge of funding drugs and vaccines for the national stockpile, is also the one that is separately funding research into new diseases that could result in a bioterror or accidental infection, which would in turn demand a response from the national stockpile. Sounds like a racket

More on Ralph Baric- also known as the Godfather of Corona Virus due in part to a corona virus vaccine patent in 2002 as well as his subsequent research. But Dr. Ralph Baric's lab
is designed to develop drugs against new emerging pathogens focuses on coronaviruses. Baric and his 30-person team partnered with Gilead Sciences, Inc. six years ago to test antiviral drugs such as Remdesivir to curb emerging viral diseases that were then largely overlooked by big pharmaceutical companies.

Gilead Science as you recall struck gold with Tamiflu thanks to Bird Flu scares that followed after SARS. Also known for its association with Donald Rumsfeld.

Posted by: Pft | Mar 19 2020 23:25 utc | 225

A group of economists and policy experts on Wednesday called on President Donald Trump to immediately lift the United States’ crippling sanctions against Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, and other countries, warning that the economic warfare — in addition to being cruel in itself — is “feeding the coronavirus epidemic” by hampering nations’ capacity to respond.

“This policy is unconscionable and flagrantly against international law. It is imperative that the U.S. lift these immoral and illegal sanctions to enable Iran and Venezuela to confront the epidemic as effectively and rapidly as possible,” Columbia University professor Jeffrey Sachs said in a statement just hours after the Trump administration intensified sanctions against Iran, which has been devastated by COVID-19.

Posted by: Mao | Mar 19 2020 23:25 utc | 226

@219 True dat, One Love for One & All..

Regarding repatriation (no not the Abyssinians tune..), the issue is complicated by the laws of the host country.
The King has authorized outgoing flights for a few more days but I would have to go through UK or Europe, where airports are a mess and amazing vectors for contagion & infection. Plus, I'm an expat not a tourist with vehicle, girlfriend, belongings, etc. so am just gonna hunker down and sit it out for now. I know you are very finance savvy and I think I share that feeling deep in the gut (?) that things will only get alot worse before they get better but

Guidance. Always..

Posted by: Lozion | Mar 19 2020 23:31 utc | 227


"A bunch of policemen without advanced education did that - it wasn't like the entire CCP fell over the dr."

Ah yes, it was just some dumb people in a vacuum. Riiiight.

You're failing to engage with my core point, which is that the local authorities actions are entirely characteristic of the environment in China.

As you say, he had only shared his thoughts with a few friends on the internet, yet the response of police was to force a false confession. And the fact that local authorities knew about the contents of a local resident's private chat is also extremely disturbing. I doubt even the US has yet sifted down to that level of timely, granular detail (and yes, I'm well aware western governments also spy on their citizens. It's unacceptable when anyone does it).


Keiser is, frankly, a thundering dumbass. He's only useful insofar as he occasionally provides an outlet for people who actually know what they're talking about, like Michael Hudson and Steve Keen.

The 'petrodollar' isn't a thing. The US dollar is not about to collapse (just as it hasn't collapsed any of the other thousand times idiots have screamed about the end being nigh).

Posted by: Benjamin | Mar 19 2020 23:34 utc | 228

chu teh | Mar 19 2020 20:59 utc | 179 polyoma

Yeah, man. I knew about it. But they didn't. Thanks very ties into coincidence theory when you tie it to New Orleans and Tulane and the circles and so forth...and the peculiar affair of Mary Sherman, does it not?

Posted by: Walter | Mar 19 2020 23:36 utc | 229

Promising to “smash” Venezuela’s government during a “maximum pressure March,” Trump has imposed crushing sanctions that force Venezuela to spend three times as much as non-sanctioned countries on coronavirus testing kits.

Posted by: Mao | Mar 19 2020 23:37 utc | 230

Thanks b for this. And no thanks to those who're messing up the comments section. If your facts are no match for your theory, just shut up.

Much more important is the Western response to the virus. Severe social distancing alone slows spread of the coronavirus but doesn't get rid of it. To rid China of the coronavirus, it has been necessary to monitor everyone in China, identify possible carriers, and isolate those individuals and people they've been in close proximity to. None of this is being done in the West.

The West's response seems to ensure: 1) severe social distancing and all its damaging social/economic effects will go on for much longer than the length of the effort in China. Minor example: the Olympics (in July) will definitely be cancelwd 2) A much larger population percentage will die in the West than have died in China. At least a million in the U.S., for example.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 19 2020 23:38 utc | 231

Bernhard when will Chump and his neo-confederates drain the swamp ? “ProPublica reported on Thursday that republican Senator Burr sold off up to $1.56 million in stock on February 13th, as he was reassuring the public about coronavirus preparedness. At the time, Burr and the Intelligence Committee were receiving daily briefings about COVID-19.
Three weeks ago, the Republican chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee privately warned dozens of donors about the harrowing impact the coronavirus would have on the United States, while keeping the general public in the dark.
In a secret recording obtained by NPR, North Carolina Sen. Richard Burr is heard giving attendees of a club luncheon a much different message than most federal government officials, especially President Trump, were giving the public at the time.
“There’s one thing that I can tell you about this,” Burr said, “It is much more aggressive in its transmission than anything that we have seen in recent history.” He added, “It is probably more akin to the 1918 pandemic.”
That pandemic claimed more than 600,000 American lives...
Burr warned the business leaders about effects on travel 13 days before the State Department released info on restrictions and 15 days before the Trump administration banned European travelers.”“ProPublica reported on Thursday that Sen. Burr sold off up to $1.56 million in stock on February 13th, as he was reassuring the public about coronavirus preparedness. At the time, Burr and the Intelligence Committee were receiving daily briefings about COVID-19.
Three weeks ago, the Republican chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee privately warned dozens of donors about the harrowing impact the coronavirus would have on the United States, while keeping the general public in the dark.
In a secret recording obtained by NPR, North Carolina Sen. Richard Burr is heard giving attendees of a club luncheon a much different message than most federal government officials, especially President Trump, were giving the public at the time.
“There’s one thing that I can tell you about this,” Burr said, “It is much more aggressive in its transmission than anything that we have seen in recent history.” He added, “It is probably more akin to the 1918 pandemic.”
That pandemic claimed more than 600,000 American lives...
Burr warned the business leaders about effects on travel 13 days before the State Department released info on restrictions and 15 days before the Trump administration banned European travelers.”

Posted by: Augustin L | Mar 19 2020 23:39 utc | 232

Why we, paranoids, would think the US capable of unleashing a bioweapon on China or the world, even withe the possibility of being got red-handed?

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has threatened members of the International Criminal Court and their families with retaliation for investigating US war crimes in Afghanistan

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 19 2020 23:40 utc | 233

Max Blumenthal:

While Venezuela copes with #coronavirus, the US has ramped up lethal sanctions that have devastated the country's healthcare sector & drove up the cost of tests.

In a decent world, the architects of US sanctions would be prosecuted & jailed indefinitely.

Posted by: Mao | Mar 19 2020 23:41 utc | 234

Here in Australia I have been bemused with this toilet paper hoarding. Frankly, if I was facing two weeks quarantine, I would stock up on nonperishable canned foods. If you do not have food to eat, toilet paper becomes rather redundant. People need to realise a calm mind makes the wisest decisions, so everyone needs to calmly and rationally workout what are the priority needs of their family during the duration of this pandemic and act accordingly and calmly.

The major supermarkets, Coles and Woolworths, set aside shopping hours from 7 to 8 AM for elderly citizens. This is intended to allow the elderly to shop free from the panic mob that exist during regular trading hours. Guess what! Being over 70 I took advantage and tried to shop at this time, but the elderly behaved no differently than the younger panic mob. I chose to walkout rather than compete with this madness. It was like two old grannies fighting one another with their canes for the last bottle of prune juice! And yes, the toilet paper aisle was the prime area of conflict!

Posted by: Dick | Mar 19 2020 23:47 utc | 235

Benjamin 227

Have you seen the environment in China.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 19 2020 23:49 utc | 236

@ Posted by: Benjamin | Mar 19 2020 23:34 utc | 227

Sure, because they are all commies, right? That police office absolutely had a hot line directly to Xi Jinping, and it was Xi himself who ordered them to force the doctor to sign the admonition letter. Because, you know, that's how communists do things - they are just a hive mind society...

Posted by: vk | Mar 19 2020 23:49 utc | 237

The age of 'facts' is over. 'Facts' have gone extinct. Although there are still obvious fallacies, which are far hardier. So please spare me the so-called 'facts'. Stick a fork in 'em. There are hundreds of level 4 'bio-containment labs', and a lot of experts say they mostly design bio-weapons, and that they 'leak' a lot. Although, staffed by scientists as they are, they presumably conduct some amount of pure science. Some experimenter may well have inserted HIV 'spikes' into a coronavirus, just to see 'what would happen'. The 'fact' that papers referring to such were retracted is merely another 'fact'. But perhaps equally likely, this virus may have evolved in the wild. Perhaps somebody with HIV caught a mild coronavirus, and recombination occurred in hisher body. Who knows? Or maybe something entirely different caused this.

I have thinking up ways to combat this virus. Can't use ionizing UV radiation, since for one thing, it generates ozone (very bad for lungs, although it can be filtered with activated carbon, but probably not adequately in the long run). So ionization is out in most settings. So perhaps the alternative is heating (cooking the virus). You simply wear a Jetson's style space helmet that is continually flushed with air in which the virus has been previously 'cooked' (by heating). One way might be to pass the air through a 'lamp' that emitted strong near-ultraviolet light. The light would heat up the virus, and thus kill it (but would not produce ozone). (Infrared might be too long-wave to heat the tiny virus.) Perhaps a better way would be to pass the air through a sort of 'non-fueled' diesel 'pseudo-engine'. The air would get very hot on the down-stroke (killing the viruses), and cool right down again on the up-stroke.

This sort of measure could even wipe out the common colds and flu.

Posted by: blues | Mar 20 2020 0:09 utc | 238

One more evidence against propagandizing here about those "miracle drugs":

New Study Finds Drug Approved to Treat Covid-19 in China Largely Ineffective

Note: it's the HIV one. I remember people here preaching for the "SARS CoV-2 comes from HIV, therefore is a bioweapon" conspiracy theory.

I'll repeat again: in desperate times, doctors have the liberty to try anything. Doesn't mean it is a viable treatment, let alone a cure.

Posted by: vk | Mar 20 2020 0:09 utc | 239

Is AIDS U.S. $90B Taxpayer Dollars A Global Slush Fund?

Chapter 1: The Evolution of HIV/AIDS and The Orchestration of The “Rescue Funds” Timeline

Chapter 2: The Global Fund

Chapter 3: Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation

Gates & UN Control It All! Billions in Taxpayer Dollars

How do NGOs rule the world, while bleeding us dry? This is a comprehensive breakdown on who runs the healthcare industry (and other industries), how they do it, how they get funding, how they influence policies and priorities, the money flow, and billions in taxpayer dollars.

Posted by: Mao | Mar 20 2020 0:15 utc | 240

Benjamin @227

I am seconding the request by Peter AU1 @235. Do you have any clue about the subject you are going on about at all? Even a faint clue would improve your argument. What is this "environment in China" that you imagine the "local authorities actions" are characteristic of?

By the way, here is a video of some arsehole trying to argue his way out of a traffic citation in China. Shanghai cops have all kinds of nifty equipment on their belts, but look closely for what is missing: guns.

Real oppressive "environment" there in China where some arsehole can argue with cops and not get shot like he would in the USA.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 20 2020 0:27 utc | 241

James @ 47, 194:

I mentioned @ 162 an industrial accident occurring in northern Italy in the 1970s that Alessandro Monti's urban folk album was inspired by but didn't have the details at the time. I got 'em now.

Marc Lallanilla, "Briefing: The Seveso Disaster" (updated March 2019)

"... A small suburban town some 10 miles north of Milan, Italy, Seveso had a population of about 17,000 in the 1970s. Other nearby cities include Desio, Cesano Maderno and Meda; together, these formed a mix of urban, residential and small farming areas. A local chemical plant, constructed many years earlier in Meda, was owned by ICMESA, a subsidiary of pharmaceutical giant Hoffman-La Roche.

Overall, the plant was not perceived as a threat by the local population. All that changed, however, on the afternoon of Saturday, July 10, 1976, as parts of the plant were being shut down for the weekend. While residents of Seveso and the surrounding area were tending their gardens, running errands or watching their children play, one of the buildings in the chemical plant was getting dangerously hot as cooling mechanisms were turned off.

When the temperature inside one of the plant's tanks reached a critical level, a pressure release valve opened, and about six metric tons of toxic gas were emitted from the facility. The resulting gas cloud that drifted over the Seveso area contained an estimated one kilogram of TCDD, technically known as 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzodioxin ..."

Yes I now recall from past memory of reading about the disaster that it was similar to the Bhopal disaster in India in the mid-1980s, in that a cloud of toxic gas containing dioxin (a known carcinogen) from a leakage in a tank located in one of the buildings in the chemical plant in Seveso spread over the town.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 20 2020 0:31 utc | 242

Please inform Donald J. Trump that he needs to stop spreading disinformation on the Coronavirus.

Trump calls Coronavirus, the China virus and Chinese virus and blamed China for spreading it to the U.S.

Tom Cotton, the dumb as a rock Senator from Arkansas wants to go to war with China over the Coronavirus.


You can't make this stuff up.

Posted by: Circe | Mar 20 2020 0:34 utc | 243

Benjamin | Mar 19 2020 23:34 utc | 227 (max the dumbazz)

Maybe, but he's the ringer...yer falling for the stick.

Stacy is the boss.

Some people have trouble reading theater...the Mise-en-scène tells you the story...

But of course, they may be a con... duh!

Fun a watchin', specially the Wally bets she spanks him.

Think laurel an's comedy. Vaudeville. He even does magic tricks...Wally's waiting for the pony and monkey.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 20 2020 0:34 utc | 244

Well, with apology, it's perhaps not topic, but Wally does have an anecdotal report from 40N @ Anoxia. He was obliged to perform a sally.

Nobody he noticed wore a mask. Everybody keeps 6 feet distance, except for commerce. Nobody touches.

There are shortages of food choice, but not quantity, and sundries like wooden matches are limited.

Traffic is quite light. Gas is cheap. No panic.

Most people seem (Wally did some chatting up of a school teacher (a cute blond) and a lower class laborer, - the Provence is almost all "white" and nominally Christian -. They think the US did it, and they're not surprised by that. But their preoccupation is entirely pragmatic. Get on with urgent personal matters, but with also the understanding that the people have to ubnite.

Wally's opinion? Pre-revolutionary meta-stability on an unstable ground.

That's an isotropic blink of a quiet riverain town just now, from a sample of 3.

On the cop-o-tronic scanner receiver (circa 155 mc) Wally hears a lot of cop errands...a bit of increase in people arguing inside their dwellings, "domestic" calls, and many "welfare-checks". Also petty theft and some public fighting when the fight inside goes outdoors. He's say some general angst.

In genuine public space people are quiet and polite, shrugging at their vision of a Philip K. Dick scene. Perhaps in shock.

Just an anecdote.

Everyone is astonished and pleased at 50 miles visibility and the prettiest sky sink New Mexico in 1955. Absolutely chemtrail = zero and gorgeous.

Happy equinox.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 20 2020 0:56 utc | 245

" jackrabbits view that the empire is using this for malevolent purposes.. either that, or why didn't they impose the self isolation and closing over everything sooner??"

The Empire uses everything for malevolent purposes: malevolence is what it does. It is founded on the malevolence of stealing from all-exploitation- and sundry-imperialism. It is good that JR has caught up with that much.
Why didn't they take the sensible measures immediately? Because, in a word, they don't know what they are doing. They are used to doing nothing while market forces, the big corporations, the military, Israel etc (all their sponsors) take decisions for them. Plus: they are used to acting with impunity, there being no organised opposition and the media being totally devoted to covering up for them. They had forgotten that there is a real world- the same real world warming up rapidly- which they cannot make moot then sit by and watch as all the smartarses in the population-who ought to be opposing them- argue that 'there is no environmental crisis' 'global warming is just a scam' 'the Syrian government is a dictatorship' and 'this is just another 'flu going around and I have the Rolls Royce of Health Insurance coverage."

Posted by: bevin | Mar 20 2020 1:04 utc | 246

On the subject of bioweapons... The logic is that folks actually KNOW what they are doing, that there are high levels of proficiency. We have absolute disasters in conventional weapons programs. The money flows, which seems to be what many people care about: engineering scientists or lab scientists- interesting jobs that people get used to doing (and don't want to lose).

The US dropped disease infected insects on North Korea in the 50s.
Lyme Disease's epicenter was right in the area of Plum Island (US military research facility [or such]).

Nuclear energy is safe...

Mistakes happen. Coverups happen. As noted, no government would possibly admit to being at the center of a mistake like this.

Posted by: Seer | Mar 20 2020 1:07 utc | 247

B, der angenommene 4. Mythos wird von dir so rationalisierend entmystifiziert, dass ich vermute, du kannst aus irgendeinem Grund diese Möglichkeit nicht an dich heranlassen. Wir haben ja alle unsere unbeleuchteten Ecken, aus denen wir eine Bedrohung verleugnen müssen. Welcome in the club! I regret not being able for expressing my thoughts in English. And many thanks for your work from the bottom of my heart.

Posted by: Dilara | Mar 20 2020 1:08 utc | 248

Pft @224:

"Gilead Science as you recall struck gold with Tamiflu thanks to Bird Flu scares that followed after SARS. Also known for its association with Donald Rumsfeld."

. . . as well as its exclusive rights to HIV PrEP, i.e. Truvada, which lists at $25K annually.

Posted by: corvo | Mar 20 2020 1:16 utc | 249

Forgot to add another one...

The CIA unleashed LSD with the thought/hope that it could be a mind control drug. It turned out to be the complete opposite: LSD tended to turn people into being anti-establishment!

So, yes, we can seemingly point out that COVID-19 isn't exactly a good bioweapon*, but who knows what, if it was manufactured, the early thoughts were.

*We are, however, assuming that it's death count that's the actual measure, not total fear? If you consider that the US govt (and others too) are in economic meltdown over this then I'd have to say that it's actually as effective a weapons as you could figure. US sanctions target the general population of a country to get them to oust their political leaders. One could speculate that COVID-19 was the perfect tool to overthrow a global economic system that was nearing it's end: add in that China's Belt and Road initiative was seen as the end of USD hegemony. It's big game stakes we're talking about.

Posted by: Seer | Mar 20 2020 1:18 utc | 250

Frigging yanks. Had all this time to get organised and now they are flying in test kit swabs from Italy of all places. Going by the numbers Italy is showing, it needs to do a lot more testing to get ahead of the bug.
"“There’s multiple parts to testing,” Air Force Brig. Gen. Dr. Paul Friedrichs, the Joint Staff surgeon, said at the same briefing. “The first is the swabs that are used to collect the sample from the individual who’s being tested, then there’s a liquid … that you put the swab into. That’s what composed what we brought over from Italy.”

These types of swabs are made by companies in the U.S. and overseas, he said.

“This is a great example of how nations are working together to ensure that we’re meeting the global demand,” Friedrichs said."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 20 2020 1:19 utc | 251

There have been two, and now three great imponderables during the course of my life:
1) Was there a second shooter in Dallas?
2) How did Building 7 collapse into its own footprint?
3) Where did Covid 19 come from?
And when pondering each, cui bono is as good a place to start as any.

Posted by: Hal Duell | Mar 20 2020 1:21 utc | 252

@ jen 241... see @ 205 dan of steeles response to you with the link he provided on that.. i read it - and yes, just like you describe it.. quite shocking actually.. thanks!

@ 245 bevin.. thanks.. i get that.. it seems to me we are going to have to weather a lot more crap and bullshit like what we are living thru now, before people really really wake up.. and even then, i am not so sure.. i got a laugh out of pat langs silence when i complimented blue peacock for his comments on pats thread about closing the stock market.. check it out in the comment sections here.. .. it seems to me people put there head in the sand - pl is a good example of this - when confronted or challenged about there rosy ideologies - capitalism in pls case... i had said they privatize the profits and socialize the losses... that is essentially how capitalism and the stock market as a first hand example of it, work.... i think it is going to take some serious mayhem before people wake up..the politicians will be the last to wake up.. thanks for your ongoing commentary..

Posted by: james | Mar 20 2020 1:26 utc | 253

@ seer.. thanks.. good comments!!

Posted by: james | Mar 20 2020 1:28 utc | 254

Hal Duell @251:

Amazing how it's the same "cui" each time, isn't it?

Posted by: corvo | Mar 20 2020 1:32 utc | 255


Gilead made Remdesivir as an anti viral against Ebola. Testing finished August 19. Although it was proved safe to use, it was not effective against Ebola. As luck would have it, it is very effective against coronavirus. And as luck would have it, it has also been proved safe to use.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 20 2020 1:32 utc | 256

COVID-19: 39 new cases, three more deaths reported on Chinese mainland

All the cases came from abroad.

Fun fact: Macao, so far, has had only 17, with 10 recovered and no deaths - much better than S. Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan (the "democratic trifecta").

Posted by: vk | Mar 20 2020 1:36 utc | 257

Whether this virus jumped species or was made in a bath tub, I can't say. What I can do is count. in 2019 there were 30,000 deaths in the USA attributed to the Flu. Now, here we are in 2020 with the first quarter of the year nearing coming on, and there are less than 75 deaths traced to ncov19. So, in my estimation maybe we may record 2,000 dead this year. Is it rational that we're watching our hard earned 401k's tank, self quarantining, suffering food shortages, told to distance, avoid our neighbors, and panic over what is little more than the common cold? Why must the President address the nation every morning with the Dow Jones numbers flashing in sync? Why are people in hazmat suits poking around our cities spreading fear, and asking inane questions such as: do you have a cough, have you recently been to Iran, China, N. Korea or Iran? I was screened at my local VA hospital on the March 13th, and those were the questions asked of me. After saying negative a purple wrist ban was put on me and I was allowed access.
This all reminds me of the movie 'Citizen Kane'. For those old enough to remember it Orson Welles played the owner of a major newspaper. One day his headline read "WAR DECLARED IN … (some fictitious country)" Consequently, the President of said fictitious country called the editor by phone, and complained that the paper had it wrong, and there wasn't any war going on in his country, and how could he. However, Orson responded quite cavalierly with something on the order of; "Why of course there is a war, because I said there is"
This theatre has gone far enough.

Posted by: joetv | Mar 20 2020 1:37 utc | 258

james | Mar 19 2020 22:40 utc | 214

Problem with that theory is that Wuhan was entirely shut down - no one in or out - before the end of the Chinese New Year.

Instead of obsessing on the coronavirus source, the whole world should be up in arms about the West's response, which will result in a long global depression and millions of unnecessary deaths. We need to imitate China's approach, NOW!

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 20 2020 1:47 utc | 259

Walter | Mar 19 2020 23:36 utc | 228
And thanks your many posts n b n K1 n PsychH et al that have my attention.

Today startling data from a George Webb site that seems to claim knowledge of the 1st COVID19 patient,namely a military staffer from Ft Belvoir who participated od Wuhan 2929 military games October 2019, whose name is available...did I hear that right? Because it seemed to me weeks ago that in a case of accidental release, such an active infective would simultaneously claim its 1st patient from its release source. [Not so with a deliberate release.]

This 1st patient US Army Sergeant X now suddenly exists? [The terminology Patient 0 or 1 is used to indicate the 1st victim. Unsure which, and so was G Webb] He talks solo n fast n often mis-speaks but no one there to correct him. His data abt locating 1st victim so significant it begs confirmation. Here is my source :

Posted by: chu teh | Mar 20 2020 1:53 utc | 260

But what about other labs, undeclared by wannabe dictators, that may not be up to the same standards?

Stonebird | Mar 19 2020 21:53 utc | 200:

Non-state actors (i.e. wealthy people and their god damn foundations) should not be dismissed as well. Some of them do have enough resources to make it happen.

Seer | Mar 20 2020 1:07 utc | 246:

The Tuskegee syphilis experiment could be considered as one, under the guise of scientific research.

Posted by: Ian2 | Mar 20 2020 1:55 utc | 261

Dilara | Mar 20 2020 1:08 utc | 247 (myth 4)

Ich stimme zu, dass Mythos vier die schwächste Position ist, und erwarte, dass sich mit der Zeit herausstellen wird, dass er falsch ist.

Ich denke jedoch, dass es nicht an der Zeit ist, für das Überleben und die Zusammenarbeit zu arbeiten.

Auch keine Zeit, Verbrechen zu vergessen.

(pardon my bad German)

And yes, happy to meet you.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 20 2020 2:00 utc | 262

You can't prove <=does not exist .. by: vk | Mar 19 2020 23:17 utc | 223 <=is not a proper hypothesis.. scientific hypothesis test is null.. that is you prove the null of the order to eliminate the hypothesis, not to prove or disprove a subject.

there is no god..<= requires first, that one define god.. then to prove the null it would be necessary to produce a god that meets the long as no one can produce a god that meets the definition the hypothesis stands.. its not a proof, its a hypothesis.. and the null when produced disproves the hypothesis, not the object claimed to be or not to be a fact. .

It is easy to confuse hypothesis testing with establishing proof of a fact..but the two are vastly different.

Posted by: snake | Mar 20 2020 2:01 utc | 263

PokeTheTruth #150:

Also there is no proof that COVID-19 is "more contagious" either by laboratory analysis or in fielded studies than influenza. If you know of such a paper, I would appreciate a link so that I can examine it for myself.

From the Wikipedia article “Basic reproduction number” (see the article for references):

    Disease                           R0

COVID-19 1.4–3.9
Influenza (1918 pandemic strain) 1.4–2.8
Influenza (2009 pandemic strain) 1.4–1.6
Influenza (seasonal strains) 0.9–2.1

More comparisons between COVID-19 and influenza: How does the new coronavirus compare with the flu? (Live Science).

Posted by: S | Mar 20 2020 2:08 utc | 264

Mar 20 2020 1:07 utc | 246
...Mistakes happen. Coverups happen. As noted, no government would possibly admit to being at the center of a mistake like this...

And no pro or semi-pro lab personnel would ever deliberately create highly dangerous bio-active chemical without simultaneously researching an antidote or other mitigating agent just in case. QED--announced or not, such agents Only the true insiders know.

BTW, COVID19 involves multiple strains with different bio-targets and lethality effectiveness, depending blood types and Rh+/- factors.

Also, much R&D is done piecemeal by persons/institutions having not the foggiest what the ultimate use may be.

Posted by: chu teh | Mar 20 2020 2:15 utc | 265

@ 258 fairleft.. i agree with your main comment at the end.. regarding RJPJRs quote which you are addressing and which i agreed with - it can be more general then that.. there is a lot of traffic both in chinese tourist and in chinese business people in northern italy into venice in particular regardless when the chinese new year is, but then again venice isnt were most of the challenging dynamic is located in northern italy.. regardless i agree the west needs to up the ante here considerably in order to stop what is happening in italy from happening here..

Posted by: james | Mar 20 2020 2:22 utc | 266

@ Jack R | Mar 19 2020 16:33 utc | 58
For the use of chloroquine phosphate: Sorry, that I am not able to write down my thoughts in English, but i assume you and everybody else can read between the lines.
“The international press ignored President Xi Jinping’s thanks to his Cuban counterpart, Miguel Díaz-Canel, on 28 February. It therefore did not mention the role of Interferon Alfa 2B (IFNrec). Instead, it mentioned the use of chloroquine phosphate, which is already being used against malaria. There was also no mention of the state of vaccine research. China should be in a position to carry out the first human trials at the end of April, the laboratory at the Institute for Vaccine and Serum Research in St Petersburg has already developed five prototype vaccines.”

@Walter | Mar 20 2020 2:00 utc | 261
Thank you! Das "nicht" an der Stelle ist zuviel, ich denke mir es weg, dann stimme ich mit dir überein.

Posted by: Dilara | Mar 20 2020 2:29 utc | 267

@ Benjamin

I think your own prejudices are betraying you. But, hey, the English media has been trying hard to spin it as a Chinese coverup, so that net has been cast wide.

The facts are that Dr. Li was asked by local police to sign a document agreeing to not spread 'false rumors.' His information was in fact false because he mistakenly surmised that people at the Wuhan market had SARS symptoms. Dr. Li did not know it was, in fact, a new virus until he was later informed of that by the Chinese govt. He was an eye doctor; it's not as if he was in a position to differentiate the illness from SARS or to to identify it as a new virus.

And he was not a whistleblower, because his (mistaken) speculation was not reported to authorities through official channels; it was merely shared in a WeChat chat room. Later, someone in the chat room took a screenshot of what he said, and that false rumor spread from there. False rumors of pandemics create panic, and whatever one's views are of how the local police handled the matter, it is indeed the government's responsibility that people speak responsibly, since even false speech has real consequences. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from responsible speech.

The Chinese govt reported Covid cases to the WHO starting from January 3rd, on continued on a daily basis. The whole idea that the govt carried one with willful coverup is part of US-based disinformation campaign that has been ongoing for the last two years, overlapping with the trade war.

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 20 2020 2:29 utc | 268

Dan of Steele @ 205, James @ 252:

Thanks Dan for the compliment about my memory. I only knew about the Seveso incident third-hand in a superficial way from the music album I have.

Got to wonder whether a lot of elderly people who died from COVID-19 in Milan or other parts of Lombardia might have had chronic conditions or even undiscovered cancers deriving from dioxin poisoning from the Seveso incident and other past industrial accidents in that part of Italy. What a tragedy that would be for those people if that should be the case, even if they are a few individuals.

Posted by: Jen | Mar 20 2020 2:29 utc | 269

This is in answer to Bluemot5 @107 - memories of the polio epidemic. I was in grade school in New Zealand when it came there in 1947, later than in the US. It lasted, at least restrictions did, until 1940. We lived in a suburb of Auckland which was one of the hardest hit areas, particularly during the summer months, but it spread throughout the country. It was known as "Infantile Paralysis" and there were 70 deaths with about a thousand infected, children and adults. It was thought to be caught from swimming - and I do remember that in the Auckland coastal area certain beaches had been already declared unsafe for swimming since sewage drained into the harbour.

All schools were closed and swimming forbidden. I remember we had correspondence classes from radio and newspaper. I got sick, but it wasn't polio. Our doctor came to our house and diagnosed scarletina, a milder version of scarlet fever. A girl from my school, a twin from the younger set of two twin pairings in the family, died.

I've verified the dates, which I wasn't sure of, via an April, 2018 article in the New Zealand Herald.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 20 2020 2:54 utc | 270

I'm sorry - should have said 'it lasted...until 1949.

Posted by: juliania | Mar 20 2020 2:55 utc | 271

@ Posted by: chu teh | Mar 20 2020 2:15 utc | 264

And no pro or semi-pro lab personnel would ever deliberately create highly dangerous bio-active chemical without simultaneously researching an antidote or other mitigating agent just in case. QED--announced or not, such agents Only the true insiders know.

One would think. I'd tend to agree, but... it's not a given. Would be curious to hear from experts on who this kind of research moves forward. But as you note, it's a good bet that "insiders" would know (and the reasons why they would tend to hold back).

Posted by: Seer | Mar 20 2020 2:58 utc | 272

chu teh@264

seems to be a general reluctance to consider lab origin of this virus. Discovering the source is less urgent than the effort to bring it to heel, but it seems the lab would have provided the pathogen with an antidote as a standard procedure. Dr. Francis Boyle in a video interview via, claims to have received a copy of a patent application for an antidote or vaccine from an unknown source. Have you seen this video and does it seems credible to you?

Posted by: jadan | Mar 20 2020 3:09 utc | 273

States have created mass killing machines. We have seen states support human experimentation and torture. All happily supported by science.

Despite all the detractors I see businesses taking this very seriously in California on direction from the US Government, especially the SF Bay Area, and implementing successful strategies used in China and Korea. I see companies kicking into high gear to contain.

Despite all the doom and gloom and all the talk of depression I see us getting through. A society that collapses because it took a couple of months off was doomed anyway. We will bounce back and the markets will slingshot up starting in the summer.

There are cities that will get hit hard. NY is one.

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 20 2020 3:10 utc | 274

Regarding B's assertion that the Wuhan corona virus did NOT originate in a "wet market" - the trouble is that, according to the Chinese government and most scientists - it probably did.

The idea it is clear that it did not originate this way is simply fake news.

I suggest doing some searching with Bing or Yandex.

Posted by: FLORIN N | Mar 20 2020 3:18 utc | 275

chu teh and Seer "And no pro or semi-pro lab personnel would ever deliberately create highly dangerous bio-active chemical without simultaneously researching an antidote or other mitigating agent just in case."

Two words .. remdesivir and chloroquine. Remdesivir jointly developed by US military and Gilead Sciences. Designed built tested against coronaviruses Finished public testing (safe to use) August and ready to roll when the big bad coronavirus bug burst on the scene.
This bug has Made in Yankland stamped all over it.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 20 2020 3:19 utc | 276

@Walter 261
Just found in my inbox from today a new and better conformation about my assessment,
COVID-19: All Truth Has Three Stages By Larry Romanoff:
First, it is ignored.
Second, it is widely ridiculed.
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
Briefly, Chinese virologists discovered conclusively that the original source of the virus was not China, nor Wuhan, nor the seafood market, but had been traced to the US, a possible scenario being that the virus might have originated at the US Military’s bio-weapons lab at Fort Detrick (which was shut down by the CDC in July, because of outbreaks), and brought to China during the World Military Games in October 2019.
Also, Japanese and Taiwanese virologists arrived independently at the conclusion that the virus could have originated in the US.
Now Kam too tired to write more, it is several Hours After normal bedetime.

Posted by: Dilara | Mar 20 2020 3:26 utc | 277

Damn, can’t trust B anymore.
The last person I’d have thought would twist up his message, and deny twisting, is B.
I can handle the “China is awesome” theme we get here. It’s just always been an appreciated alternative message. It’s part of what makes this blog so outstanding.
But now, with this editorial and the encouraged smack downs of dissent to the official blog message....smh.
If MoA isn’t careful, it will become a parody of itself in short order.

Posted by: Cadence Calls | Mar 20 2020 3:43 utc | 278

As to having an antidote for a designer corona bug ...

GS-5734 is remdesivir

These are not some fabled bill gates patents on vaccines. The are linked in the wiki piece on remdesivir (2017)
Broad-spectrum antiviral GS-5734 inhibits both epidemic and zoonotic coronaviruses
Broad-spectrum therapies capable of inhibiting CoV infections would address an immediate unmet medical need and could be invaluable in the treatment of emerging and endemic CoV infections. (2018)
Coronavirus Susceptibility to the Antiviral Remdesivir (GS-5734) Is Mediated by the Viral Polymerase and the Proofreading Exoribonuclease
Furthermore, SARS- and MERS-like bat CoVs circulate in nature, can replicate efficiently in primary human airway cells, and use the same cellular receptors for entry as human CoVs (10,–13). The imminent threat of human emergence underscores the need for broadly active antivirals to combat any CoV that may emerge.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 20 2020 4:03 utc | 279

Peter AU1 @276

Too many coincidences and an 'inconvenient' timeline:

  • China hit with multiple viruses before Covid-19;

  • China the subject of West-backed democracy, human rights, protests and a trade war;
  • Ft Detrick shutdown (early Aug.);
  • Remdesivir development;
  • Bolton's sudden, unexplained departure (early Sept.);
  • Wuhan Games (Oct.);
  • Gates Foundation Pandemic meetings (Nov.);
  • Fortuitous timing of ARAMACO IPO (Nov.);
  • Trump's reversing himself about a trade deal (Dec.):
    President Trump on Friday announced a partial, tentative trade agreement with China despite his long-standing insistence that he would only strike a tough, comprehensive deal with Beijing.

    => China now has trouble meeting it's obligations under the trade deal;

  • Virus timing?

    If it hadn't been recognized as a threat a few weeks before Chinese New Year, it could've spread more widely through China;

  • US National Security classification for all virus preparation discussion (mid-Jan.);
  • USA/West blaming their lack of preparation on Chinese non-transparency

    => Even if USA/West didn't have all the info (no way to prove that ALL info has been released), they certainly had enough to warrant preparation and early action ...

    ... thus inadequate preparation is simply a means of stoking hatred of China;

  • Trump's pointing fingers via use of the term "Chinese Virus" ...

    ... further stokes hatred of China;

  • Unrefuted Chinese Claim: USA has 5 strains of the Covid-19 so it must be the source of the virus.

Some of the above may be unrelated/random and, as a whole, these may not constitute a 'smoking gun' but there is certainly reason to investigate further.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 20 2020 4:42 utc | 280

S @263

Mathematical calculations based upon subjective facts are no substitute for precise laboratory experimentation or controlled testing in the field. R0 can be misrepresented, misinterpreted, and misapplied in a variety of ways that distort the metric’s true meaning and value. Because of these various sources of confusion, R0 must be applied and discussed with caution in research and practice. This epidemiologic construct will only remain valuable and relevant when used and interpreted correctly.

The following article explains the complexity of the process to determine the R0. See:

R0 is not a static number or range, it is dynamic and varies as the values of the variables used in the calculation change over time. It depends upon numerous factors such as population density that epidemiologists use and not all of them agree on the same set of variables.


There are too many unknowns involved in a situation where one person has influenza and another COVID-19 to always say the COVID-19 patient will always spread the disease more so than the other.

Posted by: PokeTheTruth | Mar 20 2020 4:42 utc | 281

I always prefer Vid to txt commentaries. Promise you won't be disappointed this excellent vid CGTN's Zou Yue, "What works against the virus"

March 19 marked the first time that China has recorded zero new domestic cases of COVID-19 since the country implemented strict and sweeping quarantine measures to contain the spread of the virus. Decisive measures bring China one step closer to the end of the battle against the new coronavirus. Meanwhile, every country is now testing its own approach to beat this common enemy. #coronavirus

Posted by: JC | Mar 20 2020 4:49 utc | 282

Peter Au1

I don't know how this all started, whether accidental or deliberate, but I got this feeling too that there is a ready made cure just waiting to be deployed at the right time.
It's got this stench about it - MSM in lock step is always a big red flag.

Corporate media continually ramping up the fear, the disjointed government responses, no attempt of any inter-governmental co-operation among the western powers, no leadership or guidance from the UN or the WHO. No anything from our so-called 'leaders' except the same old tired bullshit.

No data & no meaningful attempt to collect data, & if there is they are certainly not passing it on to the public.

Let it run long enough to get the necessary corporate bail outs in place & financial markets sorted. Complete the wealth transfer.
Damage Iran, Venezuela & China.
See how far the 'lockdown' can be pushed - the global version of the Boston bombing.

A few tens of thousands will die but this will be of no concern to the psychopaths who are making sure they are the ones benefiting.

Who gives a fuck if Tom Hanks has got the virus - when the elite start dying then maybe I think again but so far its only these arsewipe Hollywood celebrities types & third rate politicians shouting "look at me I've got the virus, we are all in this together".
We are not in this together. You are nothing like us.

But I bet it is only the inconsequential, the old, the homeless and the designated 'burdens on society' that will die.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 20 2020 4:51 utc | 283

"You are doing good Moon. I love your work.
Posted by: Andre de Almeida | Mar 19 2020 20:40 utc | 172"

I second Andre @172

I love this place, and also some of the crazy & wild & unique people here...... very lively, and B is incredible researcher, a good writer, informative, and concerned

I wish us all good health and happiness

Posted by: michaelj72 | Mar 20 2020 4:53 utc | 284

Jackrabbit 280

After MERS and SARS there would have been a great deal of interest in this bug for weapon potential with small modifications. SARS was found in civets as the intermediate host and MERS was found in camels with one strain found in a Vietnamese bat so I take it they came about of their own accord.

Something I am thinking about. The researcher b linked to on the genome says it can live in animals such as bats and cats and I think another animal was mentioned. A natural reservoir or stepping stone host has not been found, and it has to be an animal with similar lung feature to a human.

Cats have the lung feature according to the guru (civet is a cat) so why isnt this infecting domestic cats..

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 20 2020 5:05 utc | 285

Looking back

1918 Spanish Flu. WWI ongoing. 675 , 000 deaths in US (300K excess deaths based on mortality stats published at the time) , 15 million estimated worldwide deaths in 7 months. No significant impact on GDP due to war

1950-1952 Polio peak panic-Korean War. No significant economic impact. 16,000 paralysis cases, 3000 deaths annually (mostly children)

1957 -58 influenza pandemic- over 100 K deaths in half the population. Significant recession in 1958 following Eisenhower’s cutting DOD spending. Cold War ramped up to boost spending. Business as usual for most people during the pandemic

1968 influenza pandemic, over 100k dead, peak Vietnam War, no significant economic impact

1976 Swine Flu- minimal deaths (dozens) Public health induced hype led to 45 million rushed to market vaccines. 450 people got Guillain-Barré syndrome from vaccines causing paralysis . No serious economic impact, business as usual except for vaccination

2003 SARS outbreak. Panic in China/Asia, 800 deaths. Significant economic disruption to Greater China region due to travel bans and quarantine measures. Iraq war began at same time. No economic impact in US

2009 H1N1 Pandemic. 12,000 estimated deaths in US. CDC recommended against testing in July. Not much panic. Country already in recession due to subprime crash. Obamacare passed in December. Arab spring followed. US government bought 229 million doses of vaccine mostly unused. Former CDC director hired by Merck probably got a nice bonus. Total cost 4 billion. About 2 billion went for vaccines,

2019- virus starts to spread in China starting from November 17. A month after Event 201 . This was attended by Dr Gao of China CDC. China covers up initially then began limited testing reporting few cases until January 18 when they expanded testing and cases spiked. . Did not quarantine Wuhan until Jan 23 allowing millions to leave city for other locations due to up upcoming Lunar New Year Holidays when everything shuts down fir 1-2 weeks anyways. Significant economic disruption and depression follow as West inflates panic among citizens with the help of MSM and altmedia to gain support for adopting Chinas draconian measures and curtailment of freedoms, with censorship sure to follow. Can another war to lift the West out of depression be far behind, or will that war be fought against the bottom 90% after lightbulbs go off and they realize they got played.

Experimental DNA changing vaccines being rushed to market. Total cost for everything will be tens of trillions. Thats a lot of pork. Helicopter money coming soon. Freedom and Democracy will be a pipe dream. That was Trumps role all along, to put the finishing touches on a 120 year program to destroy Democracy and replace it with an Elitist Dictatorship ruled by Philosopher Kings and Corporate Technocrats and enforced by the Military.

Posted by: Pft | Mar 20 2020 5:07 utc | 286

My post 259 mentions purported 1st COVID19 patient in Wuhan being US Army/Ft Belvoir Sergeant who was at Wuhan October Mil. games, pending confirmation bec source not very clear.

This indeed seems FALSE DATA. After checking, the data most likely referred to a 1st C-19 death in one of the East Coast states who supposedly attended the Wuhan games; NOT claimed necessarily as 1st case in Wuhan, though that is a possibility. My source was himself apparently confused.

Sorry to have caused distraction.

Posted by: chu teh | Mar 20 2020 5:10 utc | 287

Jackrabbit @280

There was also the incident back in July 2019 with virologist Xiangguo Qiu, and husband biologist Keding Cheng being expelled from the National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg. Plus some unnamed Chinese PHD student/researchers kicked out as well.
Also in December 2019 another Chinese research student Zheng Zaosong was caught at Logan Airport with vials of
'biological liquid'

Then there was the arrest of Harvard chemistry professor Charles Lieber for receiving suspect research funding from Wuhan University of Technology.

Coincidence? Reports were all very vague, but that could just be because of the low standard of reporting so common today.
In isolation maybe nothing to it, but...

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 20 2020 5:18 utc | 288

ted01 @288

Interesting. Do you have links?

<> <> <> <> <>

@everyone: please add to the timeline like ted01


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 20 2020 5:22 utc | 289

I agree with ted01's point that when the MSM is in lockstep, it is worrying. I'm thinking of how little airplay the story about Dr. Chu doing independent testing in Washington state earlier this year and finding a Covid-19 patient who had done no traveling, and how the US govt suppressed further inquiry. Now, there is no push in the MSM about trying to determine the actual timeline of Covid-19 on American soil, especially any possibility that there were untested cases back then of Covid-19. Past patients, previously categorized as influenza, could easily be tested to see if they developed Covid-19 antibodies and therefore whether they had Covid-19 instead of influenza or what not, but the CDC is totally uninterested in pursuing this, and the MSM is not pushing for it either. It's basically information lockdown about the virus timeline. The US govt doesn't want to know (or it to be known), as such information would undermine the idea of the 'Chinese' virus. It can only look bad from a PR standpoint; there is nothing to gain from knowing the truth of the timeline and scale of the virus in previous months, even going back to last year.

@ Jackrabbit "Bolton's sudden, unexplained departure (early Sept.)"

What are you implying about the connection between Bolton's departure and the virus timeline? I didn't find his departure at all strange. My sense is that Bolton pushed and prodded Trump too much for his liking, overstepping his advisory role, especially in regards to pushing for kinetic action against Iran, a conflict Trump is loathe to get mired in.

Posted by: occupatio | Mar 20 2020 5:36 utc | 290

Current figures for China is 81,193 confirmed cases. 3268 deaths. Numbers have stabilised now with no new cases in China, small number arriving from overseas. Earlier stats would have constantly included many newly confirmed cases which made the stats look good. Many if not most listed as recovered. A few cases still active but percentage of fatalities to confirmed cases can be seen.
This is similar numbers to South Korea which is looking to be around the 3-4% deaths amongst confirmed cases. Those numbers are with good tracking and going out and finding all the cases and good medical care.
Italy and Iran will be another story. Italy will be very much natural healthy living. The old weak and sick all culled out.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 20 2020 5:36 utc | 291
bailouts for everyone include Boeing

This utterly ridiculous the nation state giving those that have already failed trillions.. and making those that are still successful pay..
makes you wonder if the entire purpose of the COVID 19 thing was staged to cover up the greatest theft ever.
Trumpgate.. maybe.. none of those corporations should have been given one dime.

Posted by: snake | Mar 20 2020 5:37 utc | 292

@Jackrabbit | Mar 20 2020 4:42 utc | 280

The giveaway was that both China and Iran were hit simultaneously, even though thousands of miles apart. China is the no. 1 US enemy, Iran is the no. 1 Israeli enemy. Gilead is an israeli drug company, working with (for?) the US military. Israelis have a habit of flaunting their invincibility.

Posted by: zing | Mar 20 2020 5:41 utc | 293

More people are going to jump of a building because they cant pay there mortgage anymore than will die from the wutang, most Americans live in suburban housing and have personal cars don't take public transport

Posted by: Bob burger | Mar 20 2020 5:45 utc | 294

I have no idea of the nationality of covid-19 patient zero just as I have no idea of the origin of whatever virus causes covid-19, which is pretty much as it should be since there is a dearth of actual y'know demonstrated & peer reviewed data around this illness.

I haven't posted anything didactic claiming to assert one view or another, yet one of my posts disappeared & maybe it was just an accident but I am deeply upset by b's post where he announces that he wants to censor posts which don't toe the official as asserted by Angela Merkel, party line on the coronavirus.

Something has happened, this far from the only place insisting on only anodyne commentary. I paid my weekly visit to my pharmacy in town & was shocked to notice that my pharmacist with whom I frequently have wide-ranging critical examinations of any subject had also elected to silence diverse views. It is as if a set of instruction like a D notice has been circulated instructing anyone in a position of trust or influence to squash anything critical of the line being put out by proven self-interested touts for the elites.
It is damn sad as well as being the silliest idea the globalists have ever dreamed up.

Squashing dissent never works. As history teaches, as we have seen time & time again during the course of our own existence attempts to censor critical thinking always encourages dissent like to quote D Bowie, "putting out a fire with gasoline."
As I said I had no firm views on any of the coronavirus theories, but now I'm wondering that 'there is no smoke without fire, if the arseholes are forcing unquestioning compliance like this, they must have something to hide.'

Damn shame this was my preferred site.

Posted by: A User | Mar 20 2020 6:10 utc | 295

288 - Chinese research student and Harvard's Lieber

there was a recent very clumsy attempt on social media to link these arrests to the coronavirus. these arrests were centrepiece of a press conference to publicize a new DOJ initiative/program which is described in the last paragraph of the linked release.

Zheng was a cancer research student who foolishly hid vials of his research specimens in his luggage and initially misled security personnel about them at the airport.

Lieber's charge consists of not specifically identify China's Thousand Talents as being a co-sponsor to his research outreach with a school in Wuhan to Harvard officials. He may have honestly not been aware, and strict reporting guidelines about this specific program is very new in academia. Lieber's indictment makes a point of highlighting large sums of money, but downplays the fact these sums were subject to being pro-rated according to actual time put in. They certainly know how much he was paid and the extent of his affiliation but don't publish that information preferring to publicize big numbers which may be irrelevant. Lieber was busy enough at Harvard during the years in question. (i.e. the indictment might be political theater meant to intimidate academics from working with Chinese nationals).

Here is more info about the academic crackdown on association with Thousand Talents:

Posted by: jayc | Mar 20 2020 6:28 utc | 296

occupatio @290:

What are you implying about the connection between Bolton's departure and the virus timeline?

I'm implying that if there was any deliberate use of a bio-weapon then Bolton might well be involved and that he would probably want to leave the scene of the crime as soon as his role (to guide/initiate it) was done.

I didn't find his departure at all strange.

His departure was very strange. No real reason was given and a dispute arose about whether he was fired or resigned of his own accord.

My sense is that Bolton pushed and prodded Trump too much for his liking, overstepping his advisory role, especially in regards to pushing for kinetic action against Iran, a conflict Trump is loathe to get mired in.

Yeah, this is what we've been led to believe by the constant refrain that our saintly, peace-loving President is undermined by the advisors that he selects. Many people at moa have pointed out the absurdity of that POV.

And, at the time that Bolton left, we were unaware of the shut down of Ft. Detrick and the coronavirus outbreak that began just weeks later.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 20 2020 6:46 utc | 298

ted01 @298



Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 20 2020 6:47 utc | 299

@Dick | Mar 19 2020 23:47 utc | 234

Here in Australia I have been bemused with this toilet paper hoarding.

I guess it is the common mans message to Wall Street: We see toilet paper as the most profitable and useful stock right now.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 20 2020 6:51 utc | 300

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