Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 21, 2020

Coronavirus - On Western Government Failures And Possible Therapies

The U.S. intelligence services fear to come under questioning for not raising enough warning about the novel coronavirus pandemic. To prevent any criticism they asked their favored stenographers to write an exculpating piece.

Thus the Washington Post headlines:

U.S. intelligence reports from January and February warned about a likely pandemic

U.S. intelligence agencies were issuing ominous, classified warnings in January and February about the global danger posed by the coronavirus while President Trump and lawmakers played down the threat and failed to take action that might have slowed the spread of the pathogen, according to U.S. officials familiar with spy agency reporting.

The intelligence reports didn’t predict when the virus might land on U.S. shores or recommend particular steps that public health officials should take, issues outside the purview of the intelligence agencies. But they did track the spread of the virus in China, and later in other countries, and warned that Chinese officials appeared to be minimizing the severity of the outbreak.

If the spy services were really concerned about the issue why did they not warn the public? Instead of leaking new idiotic fairytales they could have leaked a warning about the pandemic. Instead we were given this:

If the intelligence services had taken the pandemic seriously they could have warned the public via their countless stenographers in the media. Instead they kept the media filled with false anti-Russian stories and told Trump that the Chinese are lying which they were in fact not. And now they blame Trump for not listening to them.

Trump of course would have not have believed the intelligence reports anyway. Why would he? The FBI and CIA have for three years tried to get him impeached. They created Russiagate based on a fake dossier. They lied to get FISA warrants to spy on his campaign. When Russiagate finally fell apart the CIA sent a fake 'whistleblower' to launch Ukrainegate. In Trump's place there is no reason to believe a word of whatever any of the 'intelligence officials' say.

The intelligence services failed to issue effective warnings. But they were not the only ones. All institution in 'western' countries and their leaders have lacked in their preparation for a larger outbreak.

China warned us early on. The WHO was informed in late December. On January 3 the director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was informed by his Chinese colleagues. After China recognized that the new SARS-CoV-2 virus indeed jumped from person to person it took radical measures to get a grip on the epidemic and those measures have worked well. China has only 3,255 death in a nation of 1.4 billion people. Today all checkpoints were removed from Wuhan city and life there is slowly turning back to normal.

Other Asian nations have likewise reacted fast and effectively. It was and is the 'west' which, despite having been warned, is responding poorly to the crisis.


In 2002/2003 Asian countries fought the SARS epidemic. In 2015 South Korea had a large outbreak caused by the MERS virus. Those countries have learned the lessons from the outbreaks and worked early on to keep the current curves flat. Why was no western country able to learn from them?

Iona Craig أيونا كريچ @ionacraig - 18:22 UTC · Mar 21, 2020

You know the world has turned upside down when family and friends - including Yemeni friends in the UK, US & India - are telling you to stay in Yemen for your own safety. In a time of world firsts. In 10yrs living in or reporting on Yemen, 5 of them in war time. It's a 1st for me.

Meanwhile we learn more about the new virus and about possible therapies. This though isn't a reasonable one:

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump - 14:13 UTC · Mar 21, 2020

HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE & AZITHROMYCIN, taken together, have a real chance to be one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine. The FDA has moved mountains - Thank You! Hopefully they will BOTH (H works better with A, International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents)..... put in use IMMEDIATELY. PEOPLE ARE DYING, MOVE FAST, and GOD BLESS EVERYONE!
@US_FDA @SteveFDA @CDCgov @HSgov

The claim that the anti-malaria drug (hydro-)chloroquine helps in SARS-CoV-2 infection cases comes from two Chinese studies which are only based on in-vitro tests on the virus and human cells. The doses were relatively high and chloroquine is know to have some bad side effects. There is also no sound way yet to get chloroquine into the lower lungs where the virus resides and where it would be actually needed.

There is also a small French trial with chloroquine based on real patients but which is unfortunately invalid. It was a non-randomized study with only 42 patients of which 6 dropped out.

The researches counted the number of viruses before and after the medication to see if it works. But they only took swabs in the throat to look for viruses. During the cause of a SARS-CoV-2 infection the virus does start to multiply in the throat but it then migrates down into the lower lung. Only there does the virus begin to grow in really big numbers and to cause serious damage. While that happens the virus count in the throat region goes down. The French researchers did not know that.

The above details are from the daily podcast no. 17 by Professor Dr. Christian Drosten, the chief of the virology department at the Charité in Berlin. German transcripts are available here. Drosten was involved in several clinical case studies with Covid-19 cases during which every development was measured and detailed.  He knows how the disease proceeds.

There is more to be criticized in that French study. Gaetan Burgio, a geneticist at the Australian National University, summarizes his own critique:

In short, all this hype on the clinical trial is based on a open label, non randomized and underpowered clinical trial on HCQ treatment against #COVID19 with viral load as an outcome that was not properly measured in 2/3 of the control cohort !!!

So to answer the question: What is the evidence of justifying using HCQ or CQ as a prophylactic or curative treatment against #COVID19. The simple or short answer is NONE. To ascertain it, we need a proper and powered randomized clinical trial

While I understand we are in a #COVID19 pandemic, there is no reason or whatsoever to throw away all the evidence based medicine and not doing rigorous science or a randomized clinical trial !

Chinese researcher believe they will have more success with interrupting the bonding process with which the virus sneaks into the cell:

The virus uses the outreaching spike protein to hook on to the host cell, but normally this protein is inactive. The cleavage site structure’s job is to trick the human furin protein, so it will cut and activate the spike protein and cause a “direct fusion” of the viral and cellular membranes.

Compared to the Sars’ way of entry, this binding method is “100 to 1,000 times” as efficient, according to the study.
Chinese researchers said drugs targeting the furin enzyme could have the potential to hinder the virus’ replication in the human body. These include “a series of HIV-1 therapeutic drugs such as Indinavir, Tenofovir Alafenamide, Tenofovir Disoproxil and Dolutegravir and hepatitis C therapeutic drugs including Boceprevir and Telaprevir”, according to Li’s study.

This suggestion is in line with reports by some Chinese doctors who self-administered HIV drugs after testing positive for the new coronavirus, but there is as yet no clinical evidence to support the theory.

There are now dozens of ongoing trials with real patients. Thousands of capable researchers are working on a therapy for the Covid-19 disease and on a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 virus. In a few months we are likely to have both available.

Meanwhile we can stay out of the way and learn how to make our own face masks.

Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 21, 2020 at 19:17 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

What can be done?
Simply for starters..

1. Nationalize and/or directly control those already working utilities that can be done so easily and benefit the population and serve some minimum number [1.000>] of households , to provide electricity, gas, water&sewer, garbage collection. All employees will cooperate. Eject and replace management that refuses to cooperate to maintain continuity of service.

1a. Directly subsidize the first $XX/XX of the billable utility amounts to households. [A direct benefit to the survival of persons, done with fairness.]

1b. Make the subsidy retroactive to February, 2020 billings.

2. Remit the first $1,000 of 2019 Federal Tax due, for all incomes up to $100,000, then pro-rated to $0 for incomes between $100,000 -200,000. Other direct grants can be legislated later.

3.. Etc. as appropriate.

Posted by: chu teh | Mar 22 2020 6:23 utc | 101


I raised the same issues a couple of days ago:

The real danger was always in the possibility that the healthcare system is overwhelmed. Then you get large numbers of unnecessary deaths.

So a country needs to flatten the curve. The best way to do that is to close the schools as soon as community spread is detected. In the West, this should've been done in early February - it wasn't.

By mid-February, it was clear that certain drugs and anti-virals were effective. It was important to have widespread tests so that these drugs could be administered early, especially to vulnerable populations. Yet weeks later, the West (especially USA) was still unprepared to test.

There didn't need to be a crisis or a panic. But a CRISIS! is something that is politically useful: to direct hate against China; to provide extraordinary support to favored interests like Banks and Wall Street and Boeing.

The Empire Games Covid-19

<> <> <> <> <>

In addition, it seems that USA/Trump was hoping that remdesivir, developed by Gilead Sciences, would be the (expensive) drug of choice to treat Covid-19.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 6:40 utc | 102


The link to my prior comment.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 6:41 utc | 103

USA is still dragging its feet about Chloroquine.

I expect USA will announce that there is a low-cost treatment only after the Boeing bailout is done (which could happen Monday or Tuesday).


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 6:46 utc | 104

Three or so cases here that were apparently community spread. Victoria and NSW going into some sort of lockdown in the next day or so. As far as I know, public transport stopped and only essential shops and services open.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 7:07 utc | 105

Turns out the reason the military were brought in to move the bodies in Italy is that local crematoriums in hard hit areas cannot handle the numbers. The military trucks are to take bodies to crematoriums in other regions.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 7:13 utc | 106

@Dick | Mar 22 2020 0:48 utc | 66

'They hate us for our freedoms'. Neither of these phrases made any rational sense despite 911. The last thing Muslims in the Middle East care about is American's freedoms, maybe it was all the bombs the US was dropping on them.

Bush didn't lie when he said that, but he wasn't referring to muslims in the middle east. The people behind 911 do indeed hate the civil liberties of people, the whole purpose of these events is to remove our freedoms and enslave us. But 'They' are not the muslims of the middle east, 'They' are the people who control politics and war.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 22 2020 7:35 utc | 107

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 7:13 utc | 108
Someone living in Italy and commenting on the Net gave a link to this article mentioning the problem,


Google translation,

The photograph taken from the window of a building shows a long column of military vehicles with the coffins of coronavirus victims who no longer found a place in the city cemetery because the times of cremations have become too long. The coffins were transported to other cities where cremation is possible. The Bergamo crematorium, at full capacity, can dispose of only 25 deaths a day, working continuously, 24 hours a day.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 7:37 utc | 108

Tom_LX thanks.
From the article. Town of 120,000 - 400 deaths just in one day. Those numbers give some perspective.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 8:02 utc | 109

Some thoughts about local news: we hear that tomorrow, at least, the nursing homes and retirements homes will get some masks they have been crying for since a month. To give an exemple, we are told that in the latest days, some 5 patients of such a place were tested positive. This seems normal: they received visits until last week, the staff had no masks, neither did they (for most of them, I assume, since people could have owned a couple of masks). Now obviously the whole staff is going to be tested, and the figure will increase.

About the so-called 2nd wave: in Asia, lots of students who were on programs abroad have been flown back (unlike the 120,000 French tourists who are still stuck all over the world with no solution, and often without being able to get any information from the embassies). These students and workers who have been flown back are tested, and some of them are positive. Therefore the surge in the figures.

If quarantines are applied correctly, as in Asia, these new cases won't infect others, since in Asia again, protective equipements are used by the medical staff. In France and other countries trying to please their aging populations (and their main voters, mind you), they pretend that confinement works better than quarantine, and they tell people to stay home and go out only for shopping and the pharmacy which results in lines, crowds, and the constant handling of products after anyone has sneezed on it before you arrived etc.

On top of that, the news do mention the problems of homeless, be they migrants or not, and call for people to give money, but say the state is quite invisible, since even the municipality in many places have disappeared (to go "isolate" in their countryside cottage, i.e. spreading their bugs to the local supermarkets where it did not arrive yet.... think 80 cases yesterday in Noirmoutiers by the Atlantic Ocean...). of course most of these cases will remain minor ones, but when tests are made on the people who have attended them, the figures will rise.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 8:19 utc | 110

And I forget: the simple 'poor' have completely disappeared from local news, speaking of really good business for the food industry ("as if new year's eve was happening everyday" "with people buying for 500-700 euros food each time they go to the supermarket" !! SIC).
What about the people who lived with 2 euros a day, and relied on their friends for 2-3 meals a week?? Are they going to be found starved? Suicided? Collapsed after too much booze and snacks?

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 8:50 utc | 111

Link to a review of available evidence for chloroquine treatments cited:

A systematic review on the efficacy and safety of chloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19

Click the PDF link at the top of the page. 5 Pages.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 22 2020 8:55 utc | 112

mina @112 "the news do mention the problems of homeless, be they migrants or not, and call for people to give money, but say the state is quite invisible"

San Francisco *exempted* the homeless from the shelter in place order, merely "urging" them to seek shelter (where? the city doesn't have enough...), and "urging" the city to provide that shelter - without apparently budgeting any money for that. So perhaps in due time we'll see the National Guard here rounding them up and putting them in a tent city (which San Francisco looks like these days anyway, at least in my Tenderloin neighborhood) in Golden Gate Park. That would at least be better than letting them roam around the city infecting people who have to be outside for essential business.

But of course the real estate crowd here probably think this is a great way to get rid of the homeless - just let all these immune-compromised people drop dead due to lack of medical care...

I live in a Single Room Occupancy hotel managed by the Tenderloin Housing Clinic. According to the SF Health Department order, such places are supposed to get enhanced cleaning "at least once a day". Good luck with that, Health Department... This place is likely to be ground zero for the next supervirus all on its own. Got a lot of elderly people here - including me - odds don't look good.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 22 2020 9:03 utc | 113

My sister flew into Sydney from London via Singapore on friday - no testing happening at Sydney airport - just sign a bit paper to say you will go into 14 days isolation.

Idiots can't even get the basics right.
Singapore, Hong Kong & S.Korea - test everywhere, you can't go anywhere without being tested & by all accounts they have thing under control.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 22 2020 9:07 utc | 114

Thanks b for this great article and especially for the link to the interview of Christian Drosten by Korinna Henning.
I think the most important keyword which Drosten used there is "tropism" and tropism shifting.
This therm is also used for climate shifting and climate warming.

The question about temper or temperatur rising is a very old "problem" also in the field of music.The so called "Pythagorean Comma" and the question which standard pitch is used to tune a piano or other string instruments.

There is a mathematical difference between the Phytagorean "clean" Temper and the now commonly used "equal steps temper" We can call this a "mood swing"

From a mathematical point of view toward the "energy transformation" or "stress distribution" the problem of the mood swing is the same!

There is a kind of residual energy (Restenergie) or refuge / temperate zone where the Viruses find also a niche to exist and to mutate...especially in the tissue of the nose, vocal cord, and the pulmonary tissue.

As a breathing / physical therapist working on the big opera houses of Vienna, Paris, London with opera singers and musicians I have studied this "problem" very much.
The healing effects of music and chanted prayers are uncontested and have probably the most influence to the evolution of human culture.

From my point of view there is a very strong correlation between the wast produced by turbo capitalism and the energetic wast produced by inefficient and disharmonious breathing, which fills up the lungs and other tissues.

Its not the virus who produces this waste!
The Viruses finds there the climate to exist!

What we see now is that the air and water quality got much better since the economy shoot down.
On the other side the shoot down of opera, theaters, sportevents because we cannot deal with the wast in our bodies is the biggest mistake.

Panic and fear leave a lot of energetic wast in our lungs!
The result is a growing pulmonary fibrosis caused by untransformed centripetal energy. This is what the chinese call YIN or in a mythical interpretation it is
an unfertile earth (mother)
But for the viruses the unfertile earth is their climate niche & playground.

All this people who seem to die from a virus, die actually by a growing pulmonary fibrosis..finally they can not open their lungs anymore because of too much untransformed centripetal astringent energy! (Dr. Owen Tsang came to an similar conclution)

I have created breathing techniques to avoid this energetic wast but it is not possible to teach this in Fema concentration camps.
This breathing technique is also the best for a parturient woman (the opposite of an unfertile woman / earth / Yin). The breathing technique is inspired by the Chinese philosopher Lao tse.

Posted by: Hempus | Mar 22 2020 9:20 utc | 115


Had just the one case in this area. Had just got back from overseas went up to the regional hospital and got tested. I had thought the government had tighter controls than that, but no testing at the airports is bullshit. This one would have come in at the Melbourne airport.
Now all Victoria is going into lockdown because there has been three community required cases.
Pity they didn't just test and quarantine at arrivals instead of shutting the country down.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 9:24 utc | 116

This from link @ Richard Steven Hack | Mar 22 2020 8:55 utc | 114

"chloroquine was highly effective in reducing viral replication, with an Effective Concentration (EC)90 of 6.90 μM that can be easily achievable with standard dosing, due to its favourable penetration in tissues, including in the lung"

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 9:36 utc | 117

French corporate government can fine over 40000 citizens,outside without the paper,mainly people that try to cope,grandmothers that don't have a printer,delivery drivers who forgot their Ausweisz.But in the banlieu police and gendarme don't interfere when half of the youth is outdoors selling dope,because they are scared.A MacDonald was burnt down,food delivery truck raided,but ,I knew it already,and the world can witness now how heavyhandedly french fascist regime goes about with average working people,whilst looking the other way when banlieusards are in plundering mode.

It would seem now that previous governments under Sarkozy,and Hollande,with their jewish ministry have been working hard in getting rid of anything useful in a health crisis.Where have one billion and a half masks gone?They have been closing 4000 hospital beds and 3000 community health centers in the last few years.I blame the french who are at least the equals of americans in stupidity and sheepdogged voting.We have a B.Sanders actor of our own,his name is Mélenchon,and you wouldn't believe how useful he is to media.For example,every article on Venezuela,half of the comments mention his name in despise,because once or twice he visited Hugo Chavez,see the picture?

Posted by: willie | Mar 22 2020 9:36 utc | 118

re: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 6:46 utc @ 106

You may find the following, interesting:
Israeli Pharmaceutical Company Teva to send 10 million doses of hydroxychloroquine to the United states, free of charge. | The Times of Israel
Quote Tweet
· Mar 20

Swiss pharmaceutical company Novartis to donate 130 million doses of hydroxychloroquine to the United States.

50 million doses now and another 80 million doses by the end of may.

Enough to treat millions of Americas who have been infected with COVID-19 | Reuters
12:09 AM · Mar 21, 2020

I don't have the time nor need to try to do any 'confirmation'.
Regards X- in Sweden

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 22 2020 9:41 utc | 119

Kuddo to the rabbit (above thread) for taking pain translating a MUST READ ARTICLE

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 9:48 utc | 120

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 8:50 utc | 113

What about the people who lived with 2 euros a day, and relied on their friends for 2-3 meals a week?? Are they going to be found starved? Suicided? Collapsed after too much booze and snacks?

Mina, you are one sharp cookie. Glad you raised this issue as on the Web it is hardly mentioned.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 9:48 utc | 121

Chloroquine I have noticed is also called chloroquine phosphate. Phosphate I believe is the binder that holds the chloroquine powder in tablet form. According to the paper linked by RSH @114 there is 300mg of chloroquine in a 500mg chloroquine phosphate tablet.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 9:57 utc | 122

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 21 2020 21:25 utc | 31
"Wonderful show of world-wide solidarity."

Wonderful show of highly-touted "Western values":
-- UK withholding ordered (paid for?) masks to Iran;
-- Germany taking supplies meant for Switzerland;
-- EU wdn't lend to Italians;
-- IMF wdn't lend to Venezuelans;
-- US stops Swiss from selling to Iran;
-- US grabs masks from a devastated Bergamo;
-- Mossad "collecting" masks for the Chosen People;
-- Pompeo: "Iran will not escape sanctions even in a pandemic"

But at least they still hope to make others become "normal nations" just like them. LOL

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 9:59 utc | 123

c1ue | Mar 22 2020 3:01 utc | 81
in reply to my post 31

Malaria; You are right of course about exact doses etc. Which I was not putting forward as a "solution". As this was about 40 years ago in PNG, the exact figures have got lost in the mists of time. However, my point was more that an acceptable level of risk might have to be taken into account generally as the pandemic progresses. Secondly, the age factor might also be considered. The present "National" reactions are quite age related, tailor-made for countries with older populations. (Isolation, fear of the unknown danger, and over-protection are all reactions of the old - not the young)

Side note is that the anti-malarial doses were also a factor in "contraception". ie. My wife and I couldn't have children until after we left, and it was well known that the earlier expats who owned the Plantations didn't have children unless they went back (mainly to Australia). The secondary effects of coronavirus, forced "isolation" and a possible "quinine" treatment will take nine months to be seen.

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 22 2020 10:00 utc | 124

in fact we do hear about the migrant, and a little less about the homeless; lots of police operations going on
some countries take a chance to implement some Hungary like practices but they have the viral smoke screen for cover
you bet they want to try to keep that on as much as possible

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 10:01 utc | 125

chu teh #103

Those disbursements to wage earners are vital for the social cohesion to remain in place. I thought Tulsi Gabbard championing that minimum basic income strategy was essential as well.

I empathise totally with USians that are trapped in the vulgar exploitative nightmare of the usury in that country. Debt Jubilee for all under $100,000 income would be a start. But that might create a vulgar backlash as well.

The naked ferocity of capitalism in the USA is truly a fearsome thing.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 22 2020 10:02 utc | 126

Posted by: Hempus | Mar 22 2020 9:20 utc | 117

I will share this link again as it in a way dovetails with what you are saying.
Sun and Air

research paper

Then there is the case of those "crazy" Russians using High Pressure Oxygen Chambers to heal wounds. "Sham" is the adjective frequently used to describe it as was acupuncture for long long time in the West.
Research Paper

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 10:09 utc | 127

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 21 2020 22:32 utc | 50
"These officials "failed us" in the same way that our media "fails us":
they serve the interests of the EMPIRE-FIRST Deep State."

Yuppp. Our error is to assume all 17 intelligence agencies; the presstitudes; and US "leadership" exist to serve the American people. And so, yes, they "fail" the people.

But, from the point of view of the controllers of those agencies and of those "leaders", they hardly ever fail !!!

While the people argue over virulent minutae, they are once again helping theirselves to the US Treasury.... Trillions of USDs.... LOL

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 10:11 utc | 128

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 22 2020 10:02 utc | 128

Debt Jubilee for all under $100,000 income would be a start. But that might create a vulgar backlash as well.

Now that is something which if it were on the campaign platform of a presidential candidate would justify taking the time to go and vote for.
I'm not holding my breath on that one except in a case when I need to make sure I don't breath-in the dreaded Covid-19 when someone sneezes.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 10:21 utc | 129

Posted by: AJ | Mar 21 2020 22:56 utc | 52

AJ, you are way off base. Go and read more. Start by digesting what B is writing lately. We all grow by learning. Makes a better world for everyone. Cheers

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 10:21 utc | 130

Stonebird 126

On the reproduction side, would that apply only if Chloroquine was taken regularly as a preventive or did it have lingering affects if it was simply used to cure an infection.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 10:29 utc | 131

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 21 2020 23:10 utc | 54
"Caitlin Johnstone also sees the response being manipulated to focus hate on China...."

Yuppp, blaming China, hating on China achieves several objectives:
-- it misdirects Americans from blaming Trump's "leadership";
-- it excuses Trump's mismanagement ("...the Chinese LIED...")
-- it absolves the CDC, 17 "intelligence" agencies, etc;
-- it continues The Great China Pivot started by Great Pretender Obama;
-- it uses current fear to mobilise Americans to hate China more;
-- it prepares Americans for when war on China becomes feasible;

Just look at how US leadership has been hating on Russia for the last 100 years, waiting to whack them with a sneak attack if feasible.

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 10:36 utc | 132

I don't know. Seems to me that we have a nasty virus with flu like symptoms, its fatality rate may be higher or similar to flu but undoubtedly targets the old or those with compromised immune systems. Funny how numbers cited in the news never mention the age or differentiate current flu. However the only advice from the media is washing hands, never a single word about strengthening the immune system which would seem the logical time proven response. We are designed to live on this planet and viruses are part of our natural integrated environment.

Australia currently seems to be handling it quite well, progressive news though is screaming out for a total lock-down of probably 6 months. They say we should have a vaccine by then, but if not we just stay in lock-down. This ill thought scenario presumably needs a vaccine as borders stay closed as there would be many people not exposed and thus without acquired immunity for now or if it ever comes back.

I am not dogmatic about being right as I'm often not, but believe it is being hyped with fear. Why someone desires the world economy to crash I don't know.

Posted by: Rancid | Mar 22 2020 10:57 utc | 133

News articles in relation to Swiss company and Israel supplying US with hydroxychloroquine

Looks like Trump is getting in early and securing what is likely to be good chunk of the worlds hydroxychloroquine supplies. If they get confirmed cases onto antivirals early, fatalities will be low. I think I would prefer the US to do the herd immunity thing though.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 10:59 utc | 134

The coming lockdown of Vic and NSW in a day or so surprised me. Very little community spread as yet.
If we can't keep control of the bug while keeping things ticking along, its going to be a long wait for a vaccine. China has brought under control a major outbreak and is getting going again.
My thought was that there would only be lockdowns where there is an outbreak of community spread virus but that doesn't seem to be the case. Where we are at know in confirmed cases is as good as it gets, as a large number of are people arriving from overseas. To bring on a lockdown - no public transport ect means many factories and businesses closing down - at this stage means we will be locked down until a vaccine turns up.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 11:11 utc | 135

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 2:45 utc | 79
".... was then told to STOP TESTING...... A medical person would not try to suppress testing. That would be a "management decision" and its the Nation Security Council that was running the show (and which had classified all discussions related to virus preparations)...."

Thanks for reminding us of Dr Chu's story. What if the US leadership:
-- knew the coronavirus was already out in the wild in the US by Sep 2019;
-- decided to set up China to be the "origin" to be blamed;
-- realised that a "pandemic" can be the cover for kicking the table over to do the Great Financial Reset;

Posted by: kiwiklown | Mar 22 2020 11:25 utc | 137

Jackrabbit, thanks for the Bolton tweet. One might start raising questions if he were still the National Security Advisor. It is better PR for the US at this point that he is not. Which makes the timing of his resignation interesting: in September 2019. How does that one fit your chronology?

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 22 2020 11:25 utc | 138

From what I understand, it is not a matter of "to do or not to do herd immunity"; it is an on-going process anyway and all the people still going to work every day (supermarkets, hospitals, police, transports etc) are the ones participating in it, consciously and voluntarily or not.
The lock-down are simply meant to stop the on-going world migration crisis, and give another turn of authority screw and be provided with necessary excuses for complete economic disaster (already well at play because of the Empire's wars all over the planet).
In France they have adopted emergency laws that allow the parliament to meet with a reduced number of deputies. And they just passed a law saying that the group's president votes for his whole group!! Wonderful suppress of dissent, soon in your neighborhood!

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 11:29 utc | 139

b you should stick to geopolitics, please.

The french Doctor DiDier Raoult is according to one of the foremost percent expert on human influenza,indeed into the top one percent of them. He is one of the main advocate and proponent of the hydroxychloroquine which has been efficient for all his cases of Covid-19. Chloroquine in general and vitamin C Has been used by the Chinese with a death toll rate now smaller than the Italian one for twice as much people infected. Contrary to what people (the media) are saying or not saying ,the only reason so much people are dying in Italy is fourfold:they are mostly old and have other Disease and finally the government and the healthcare system is unable to face the cases due to the dislocation of the latter..

Now lets use common sense Corona Virus is not a new virus:

"Coronaviruses are a large family of viruses which may cause illness in animals or humans. In humans, several coronaviruses are known to cause respiratory infections ranging from the common cold to more severe diseases such as Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) and Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS). The most recently discovered coronavirus causes coronavirus disease COVID-19."

Although its Covid-19 mutation is new, it is certainly not an epidemic. The media would like us to believe so but words have meaning b. And for being a pandemic, Covid-19 isn't an epidemic in the slightest. To date (while I am writing this post) there has been 13069 death of Covid-19 for 308,594 cases among which 95,829 has recovered:

We can hardly call that an epidemic when according to The WHO 3 to 5 millions people each year having influenza are of sever cases:

and 107861 already died of the very regular seasonal flu without anyone blinking an eye: (go down to the health part to see the number).

And even less so Can it be stamped a dangerous disease for human kind with only 0.2% of the people between 10-39 years old able to catch it, 0.4 % of those between 40-49, 1.3% of the one between 50 and 59, 3.6% among 60-69, 8% between 70-79 and finally 14.8 % for the 80+:

You will all notice that the range pertaining to the 0 to 9 years old isn't mentioned for they are immune to the Coronavirus altogether.Like I said in a previous post the coronavirus is nothing else than mere influenza very similar to the flu and common cold and it will start going away in the next two weeks with the warming temperature of springs and later summer taking place:">">

Really, just looking at the plain factual numbers up there the CoronaVirus or Covid-19 does not deserve the fuzz and frenzy like behaviors Media (and you b) are making it out to be. Yes the management of the crisis by the countries state government of the world has been poor, inefficient and shameful while the death toll is saddening and emotionally wrenching in every way. Yet, the Coronavirus is far from deserving massive human quarantine ,closing of borders, stopping airplanes traffic, cancelling main events and social life and asking specific papers and proof of good health to go around about (France , Italy...). Locking up about 99.99 percent of the world population for a few coronavirus cases is insane and inefficient*; absolutely insane and mad.I hope you understand it b. A huge part of the economy made of casual and average folks (and not the vultures and/or mega rich using every made up crisis or not to buy bonds for peanuts and increase their already insane wealth later once the crisis end and the prices rise again) took a hit, it may never recover totally from. But much more the population at large was deprived of its basic rights and liberties without acceptable and relevant reason of meaning.A few step forward in these insane measures and it'd have felt like George Orwell's 1984, in worst, probably.

Now I don't blame the people. They don't know much and even the smartest and wisest of them can get trapped in this media propaganda; but as to you b, I don't get it.I really don't and you lost much faith from me every time you add a post on this subject.Certainly there must be something else more valuable to say on the geopolitical landscape these days for you to pursue on this Coronavirus delusional path. With the fall of the oil price due to the increasing production from Saudi Arabia in order to hurt Russia and its geopolitical consequences in the middle east:

to the inhuman sanction against Venezuela and Iran:

and last but not the least, the Defender Europe 2020 military exercises from the NATO countries happening right along the Russian border right now with 20 000 American soldiers having been shipped there a few weeks ago to participate in to the exercises, there certainly must be:

The defender Europe military exercises are the greatest military exercises in eastern Europe since the end of the soviet union (25 years ago):

... I know that these foregoing events may have slipped under your Radar b but these are pretty heavy moves on the world scale and quiet frankly much more important than the CoronaVirus paranoia and fear for our future. Unless, you start truly talking about the huge elephant in the room which is seemingly the forthcoming lack of liberty and perhaps kind of soft totalitarian society the could bring upon us all in the future if people fall into that trap of fearing every possible virus without some hard facts checking and common sense first. Virus now could very well become the new terrorism or be coupled with it to manipulate populations..and I for one don't wish that for our world and sanity. So please b get back to your roots, on track and talk about what matters.Because right now your posts about the coronavirus are useless, annoying and boring to me.

What s happening in Syria,so far ? I don t think the Coronavirus stopped the war there.

* quarantine is useless as we can see with Italy as compared to south Korea non quarantine use:

*There is more than two hundred of them out there when it comes to influenza and common cold and most if not all of them are contagious. Human population just happens to have naturally build immunity against them as it will for the Covid-19 if we just let most people catch it while we protect and make test medication and ultimately bed for the weakest..keeping most people in quarantine will just slow the process of adaptation to this new virus

Posted by: lebretteurfredonnant | Mar 22 2020 11:43 utc | 140

Jonathan W | Mar 22 2020 11:33 utc | 141

The cops down at the Dewdrop Inn said that CV19 creates
a "une raison plausible de la guerre contre la Chine"

@ Anoxia the fuzz have a department assigned to bust confidence games.

Wally's gunna read your harvardtobighous...

And tips his funny hat. Thanks John.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 11:49 utc | 141

Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 10:29 utc | 132

Lingering effects peter, as we could not be said to take tablets "regularly". Although with hindsight is is quite difficult to estimate the time necessary.

But for "births" as a result of isolation - what about the power cut in NY a few years ago and the later explosion of kiddies? Which provokes a question in itself, what is happening in high rise buildings now? There are lifts but how can you even enforce social exclusion in a building with 40+ floors?

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 22 2020 11:51 utc | 142

Not one but two of your links fucked up the page.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 12:08 utc | 143

It is also possible hat b has had a visit from a friendly national security official at the time different parts of the world went into a lockdown which would account for the new curatory zeal. It is a state of emergency, by whichever name you call it.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 22 2020 12:08 utc | 144

The hydroxychloroquine treatment of COVID-19 was accepted as standard in China and other countries for clinical practice:
Not sure if the French addition of amikacin was a significant improvement or just countered opportunistic bacterial infections. Much research was done on SARS in 2004,
and some drugs that worked in vitro then seem to be working, somewhat, now.

At present there are few options (extremely expensive antivirals not shown effective either). While "do no harm" is generally a good idea for physicians,
desperate times call for desperate measures, and reasoned treatments or combinations of older drugs, having some efficacy, may make significant differences in fatality rates.

Posted by: michael888 | Mar 22 2020 12:19 utc | 145

Why not try something like this:

Posted by: Lubo | Mar 22 2020 12:21 utc | 146

Rancid | Mar 22 2020 10:57 utc | 133

Somewhat OT but in reply to your post - it is only SOME of the financial system that will crash. Hedge Funds and big money "masters" have and will be bailed out.. Not Banks (yet) or airlines. The 700(?) trillion parallel derivatives black hole where the major part of "off the ledger" business is transacted is what they are trying to save. (one major clearing house has already been liquidated)

The financial crash will impact those, (huh, be honest - us) who might have something in a Bank or a house that could be considered an asset. The present "lockdown" can be used to control very rebellious populations when the "Banks" declare they will seize everything. In the EU your assets in a Bank belong to the bank. You are an unsecured creditor. Bond holders will be paid off first, you might get the crumbs. Safe deposits are included.

(Example; you have a mortgage and you think the Bank holds the title? Think again, with rehypothetication and "daisy-chaining" the Bank has "bundled" your house as part of it's own assets, with others it has in it's possesion, which are then sold on in bits. The buyers (the next Bank or financier) will take that bit, "bundle" it with some others it holds, create a divisible "fund", sell on bits, = rinse repeat as long as you can. - So someone further up the chain needs money urgently? He will ask for the sum that is "owed" to be provided rapidly or the asset at the base. - so on back down the chain. Your house could/will be foreclosed by someone you have never heard of. There are not enough assets in the world to cover the debts in that market.)

This link might be a start to an "explanation", but there are so many types of arcane financial "quick shoe shuffles" derivative vehicles, it is a lot of work.

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 22 2020 12:25 utc | 147

Lombardy region. 500 - 600- 800 dead in a day and numbers per day are climbing
An article when it started feb 23rd. One month.

One of the first to die there "However, the man who died in Veneto had not met the main risk factors for the virus when he was diagnosed with pneumonia two weeks ago. He had not travelled to China, nor come into contact with anyone who had. Therefore he was only tested for the virus after he did not respond to conventional pneumonia treatment, and by then it was too late, according to Francesca Russo, the head of healthcare for the Veneto region."

Not to worry. this is just the flue. They are all old and unhealthy anyway. They only died with the virus not because of it. Pollution that's the problem.

From the article " Despite the alarm, authorities urged calm and tried to balance precautionary closures with the economic reality of regions highly dependent on tourism and commerce. Hotel reservations in Venice were down one-third during the first weekend of Carnival, though the floods in the lagoon city late last year are likely to have scared off visitors.

“This is not an Italian ‘Wuhan’,” insisted Ivana Jelenic, president of the federation of Italian tourism and travel agencies, Fiavet. “Avoiding all travel at this time would just be alarmist.”'

22nd today. 4,825 dead. Tomorrow will be the 23rd. One month over 5000 dead in one region of Italy and the rate is speeding up not slowing down.

And I guess everybody thinks they are not Lombardy.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 12:26 utc | 148

Jonathan W | Mar 22 2020 12:08 utc | 144

The "debunking" post was written by "we" the committee.

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 22 2020 12:31 utc | 149

uncle tungsten #126

"But that might create a vulgar backlash as well."

... the backlash would not only come from the creditors. The millions who kept their older car running rather than trade it for a shiny new one, forgo the Caribbean vacation, or got into less expensive housing because they decided to live within their means... those people might also be a little ticked off.
Just target it to things like student loan debt and medical-related debt, then most everyone except the creditors would be on board.

Posted by: Carciofi | Mar 22 2020 12:31 utc | 150

Looks like the harvardtobighouse dotcom post is gone "poof!".

But Wally scanned the article... (BTW the long links are a fubar. )

He smells rhetoric in the article,authors have agenda other than science. It seems to be what it is, an argument for a global stop to gain of function research, with a petition. (like are they stupid? a petition?)

art title> "Logistical and Technical Exploration into the Origins of the Wuhan Strain of Coronavirus"

They speculate it was, is, more or less a negligent release.

And seem to say that both Sam and Chin were together on work related to the germ, but given the sloppy work in Chine... you get the idea.

The shape of the argument follows "he who smelt it, dealt it".

What does it matter?

It's dated 31 January 2020.

The blame, if any, is so unutterably vast that nobody will ever know.

But it would be nice if they, everybody, stopped screwing around with bioweapon research, and, while they're at it, stopped screwing around with weapons bigger than a 30.06 rifle, or bowz an' arrahs, eh?

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 12:31 utc | 151

Nice realtime display of total Covid-10 active cases, total deaths, global, by country, linear or log graph


Posted by: Carciofi | Mar 22 2020 12:53 utc | 152

I suspect we will be seeing figures well over 1,000 per day coming from Italy soon.
Numbers of confirmed cases have been rising exponentially. Even if no new cases were found,
death numbers would continue rising exponentially for the next week or so due to lag time.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 12:55 utc | 153

Another reason for the curves in chaotic Fr/It/Sp is a point underlined by Campbell on 19/3 about
the fact the soccer team Manchester United has opened up its hotel free of charge for medical
staff, so that they can return from work to a neutral place rather than to their families and spread
the bug further. Such measures have been applied in Asia and they should have been on the mind of
the EU gov, but apparently they were too busy thinking about their luxury holidays or their shares
in the stocks.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 12:57 utc | 154

Whoever @140

I have deleted your post on my client side to restore readability to the thread. It appears that you wrote a lot, but due to your (lazy?) inability to format links your post is unreadable and thus I will never know if what you wrote is worth the time spent by the electrons that conveyed it to me.

Hopefully our host deletes your post so that I do not have to do it myself every time I reload the page, and then you expend the time and effort to properly format your post so that it is readable before re-posting it.

As to the topic of this discussion, I am sure regular readers are familiar with my opinion of the "intelligence community", which is that "intelligence" is nothing more than a label they apply to themselves and has nothing whatsoever to do with any personal qualities of the individuals employed therein. As they, organization-wide, firmly embrace victim culture and identity politics, they proudly flaunt their incompetence because it is an integral component of their identities and proof of their victimhood. Due to this cherished incompetence, their failures cannot possibly be their own faults, which leads to this reflexive blamethrowing.

Irrational? Yes, it is, but what more can you expect from a culture suffering from late-state capitalism? Moreover, the misnamed "intelligence community" is populated strictly with "traditional" students transitioning from privileged plastic suburbia to the uber-artificial manicured garden communities of northern Virginia via safe-zoned Ivy League campuses with never a step outside that Disney pipeline to experience reality. After all, everything they might need to know about reality they learned in a "student-centered" and "inquiry-base" classroom experience at Harvard. What more do they need than that?

In essence, the misnamed "intelligence community" is a distillation of the gravest intellectual flaws in contemporary neoliberal (non-STEM) academia.

So naturally when China tries to "out-victim" them by pointing out that the virus was a bioweapon attack, these members of the misnamed "intelligence community" feel honor bound to defend the supremacy of their own victim status by minimizing China's victim status. That may sound crazy to people from prior generations, but it is the logical destination for victim culture.

Posted by: William Gruff | Mar 22 2020 12:57 utc | 155

Which would so explain why b flaunted the numbers of visitors to this site.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 22 2020 12:59 utc | 156

Maybe we could get some clarification on censorship here.

I left a very rational comment yesterday about environmental causes that was left up all night and now gone.

I guess censorship and hysteria are also the new normal?

The dangerous air, soil and water pollution is one of THE major very factors that make capitalist society unhealthy, sick and weak leaving everyone with compromised immune systems to varying of degrees and hence vulnerable to disease.

Attributing to coronavirus as the cause to continuously occurring deaths associated with other ailments or conditions or weakness of immune system for other reasons is manipulative and dishonest way to stoke more fear of high mortality of victims while data is still insufficient to make such judgments.

A virus which impacts upper respiratory functions attacking those who are vulnerable due to years of having their upper respiratory systems assaulted non-stop by heavy doses of pollutants of all varieties- that's what we are seeing. None of this is new except to the degree. In all the areas listed below, N Italy, N China, Madrid, Tehran they have been experiencing a dramatic increase in upper respiratory disease for years now.

And please don't tell me the solution is some vaccination or some great new cure that will be discovered (and profited from) by the miraculous men of modern medicine. The solution is to clean up the environment so that we are not vulnerable in the first place. Without that prepare for COVID-20 the sequel or whatever name the thoroughly bought off WHO and CDC and...wish to place upon this next "pandemic."

Posted by: Allen | Mar 22 2020 13:05 utc | 157

I can't see why the lockdown system should function since the way it is applied is meant to satisfy some
voters as in "security-security-security". 2 points: the medical staff gets infected (one died today in France)
and infect their families when they return home, or their colleagues, or their patients; the people who are
asked to work (supermarkets, pharmacies etc) get infected by people who don't know they are infected and they
reinfect their household.
Social distancing, intl transports to a standstill or almost, no indoor events seem the only sane solution
(and long-term) to me.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 13:05 utc | 158

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 12:31 utc | 151

I found it but you better hurry.

If you look on Google using the title of the article you will find it with its link. If you click on it, as you say, NOTHING.

The trick is to hit the little green down arrow and you will see the word "CASHED". There it is.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 13:06 utc | 159

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 12:31 utc | 151

Just in case it is not clear here is what I put into Google,


That search also leads to other sites where it appeared. That is ALSO interesting.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 13:08 utc | 160

WHO Lock-downs Not Enough to Defeat the virus
But alot of nations do not even commit to a lock-down!

Posted by: Zanon | Mar 22 2020 13:10 utc | 161

@ harvardtobighouse site art title "China owns Nature magazine’s ass – Debunking “The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2” claiming COVID-19 definitely wasn’t from a lab" is a subject for analysis.

Wally avoids attempts to criticism of the paper(s) in quo as to technical value, but he is "innarrested" in the implied actual reasons for the creation of papers in re CV19.

Wally wonders about the goals of the authors. Their reasons, not their science.

Truth, they say, is first casualty of war. Wally says that lies are effaced by actions over Time...antelopes do not (poof!") become zebras, and thus Truth is, in a time of lies, that which the mark knows but refuses to see.

Look. See. Say Truth. But after Truth? Obey. "They" hold all the cards.

War is a racket. That which seems to be other than what it is, is a racket. It is also the art of limiting the options in an opponent, while maximizing your own option set. Before CV Imperial options were one. (that was gitoutta da zuswang, kick over table) Now Imperial option horizon is vast. Your options, fellas, are pret-near zilch.

Need pictures?

Wash your hands and be polite. Obey. Make the best of the freak show toboggan ride. Read real books.

Oh, Wally's got a gudun. "The Hidden History of the Korean War" (I. F. Stone. He found it in pdf ferfree.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 13:14 utc | 162

This is the google coronavirus site. Has all stats by country rather than breaking some of them up into cities and states and much easier to compare numbers. Something very wrong with US and German numbers. Ratios completely different from all the rest. It is like they have been using a very effective antiviral drug on confirmed cases.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 13:17 utc | 163

Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 13:08 utc | 159

Wally's saved both "harvardto..." articles.

Use duckduckgo etc...

They say that before enlightenment one chops wood and carries water.

And after enlightenment?

Chop wood, carry water...

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 13:23 utc | 164

I live in Sweden as most know.
I used duckduckgo and found the - "Logistical and Technical Exploration into the Origins of the Wuhan Strain of Coronavirus" -story immediately.
No problem accessing, downloading it.
Eventually, I'll take-a-look at it.
I got 5 apple trees to prune, among other things to do outside...

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 22 2020 13:36 utc | 165

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 13:23 utc | 163

The magic happens on the fly in the Internet Space. Memory is constantly being "adjusted" for the Proles.

"What are you doing Winston ?"

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 13:36 utc | 166

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 22 2020 13:36 utc | 164

Now I see what happened. The original link on MoA was when on that blog the article appeared in his "February 2020" link.

Now it is in "March 2020", hence the confusion. It is as you say.

However "CASHED" is a facility that can be used ,at times, when something is removed and you been super curious want to see it. Of course you must know first that it was there to begin with.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 13:42 utc | 167

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 22 2020 13:36 utc | 164

Never mind, I'm confused. Too much Corona. Need fresh air and Sun. Over and out.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 13:45 utc | 168

"I got 5 apple trees to prune, among other things to do outside...

Posted by: Veritas X- | Mar 22 2020 13:36 utc | 164"

Yes, so, chop wood, carry water, and garden, prune trees. Wally an' Mrs Wally will be doing just that, an, yeah, screwing around in the shop too.

It used to be kinna noisy at the LZ here in Anoxia, and the sky used to be buttermilk-blue, hazy, what with the chemtrailz or/and contrails.

Now it's as pretty as kin be, and quiet. There's an owl that hunts Wally's yard. And he kin hear the hoots right this second.


Evidently at the Celestial Wisdom Department down at the State Capitol there may be confusion about "the rules" in California. see front page la times. Pitiful. "Law" seems now to be the semantic equivalent to "rules".

"The governor pleaded with Californians to stay home, saying his administration is working to clear up confusion over state and local orders. " (They do not seem to give any attention to Federal "rules")


Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 13:57 utc | 169

@ The hydroxycloroquine squad

The Brazilian President, Bolsonaro, has become a hydroxycloroquine fangirl. He's publicly advocating for mass production of the drug.

Literally every medical expert and all competent medical institutions of Brazil are veemently condemning his proposal. They condemn it not only as a not science-based decision, but also as a very dangerous policy, since hydrocloroquine is very harmful at high doses.

There's no miracle drug. The goal is to survive the first wave (which the most dellusional western governments claim will last just two months), then delay the second wave the most possible - until a vaccine is developed, probably 12 months from now. Long story short, the goal is to survive one more year.

After a vaccine is developed, then herd immunity is the way to go.


This is interesting:

Coronavirus: ‘strange pneumonia’ seen in Lombardy in November, leading Italian doctor says

Virus was circulating ‘before we were aware of the outbreak in China’, says Giuseppe Remuzzi, director of the Mario Negri Institute for Pharmacological Research

Posted by: vk | Mar 22 2020 14:01 utc | 170

Here's a pretty good overview on the major avenues to attack nCOV/COVID-19 from a treatment perspective: Ars Technica overview

In particular, this article talks about targeting different aspects of the nCOV life cycle and how these are targeted by treatments to attack nCOV:
1) Reproduction: remdesivir and others
2) [viral] protein processing: protease inhibitors such as HIV drugs
3) [viral] packaging: attack the final protein packaging of the virus such as a Hep B treatment - but very few such examples exist, of any kind
4) viral shell: plasma distilled from existing recovered victims used to prime immune system of ongoing infected. Vaccines will eventually enable this via manufacturing processes.
5) new infection capability: chloroquines. In particular

One of these targets is the drop in pH. This is the step that's targeted by chloroquine, the antimalarial drug. Chloroquine can cross membranes and so can enter the sac containing the virus. Once there, it can neutralize the pH.

That's significant, because many proteases are only active at lower pH. If the pH inside the sac doesn't change, it's possible that the coronavirus spike protein won't be cut and thus won't be activated. This appears to be the case in cultured cells infected by the virus, and there are anecdotal case reports of chloroquine helping COVID-19 patients.

It is also clear - from this description - why evolutionary pressures could create defenses against this type of attack (chloroquine pH change)

Again, a theoretical operation, even the clinical test tube trials, doesn't equate to effective therapy.
However, IMO, the cost and risk factor for chloroquines makes for a far better gambit than anything else at this moment in time. And note that because of the way chloroquines are supposed to affect nCOV - if chloroquines work, they have to be taken when symptoms first appear or potentially even as a preventative.
I would discourage the preventative use though - that will likely accelerate the nCOV evolution around the chloroquine pH attack.

Another reason: it appears the US only has 160,000 ventilators available Johns Hopkins estimate
of which a bit under 30K are being used for neonatal/pediatric care.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 14:05 utc | 171

Jonathan W @138:

the timing of his resignation interesting: in September 2019. How does that one fit your chronology?

From an earlier comment of mine (responding to someone else):

What are you implying about the connection between Bolton's departure and the virus timeline?

I'm implying that if there was any deliberate use of a bio-weapon then Bolton might well be involved and that he would probably want to leave the scene of the crime as soon as his role (to guide/initiate it) was done.

I didn't find his departure at all strange.

His departure was very strange. No real reason was given and a dispute arose about whether he was fired or resigned of his own accord.

My sense is that Bolton pushed and prodded Trump too much for his liking, overstepping his advisory role, especially in regards to pushing for kinetic action against Iran, a conflict Trump is loathe to get mired in.

Yeah, this is what we've been led to believe by the constant refrain that our saintly, peace-loving President is undermined by the advisors that he selects. Many people at moa have pointed out the absurdity of that POV.

And, at the time that Bolton left, we were unaware of the shut down of Ft. Detrick and the coronavirus outbreak that began just weeks later.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 22 2020 14:08 utc | 172

@vk #170
I won't say no one is pushing the chloroquines as a miracle drug; I certainly am not.
I have been very clear in noting that it may not work, that it has severe side effects and is potentially very dangerous at high doses.
However, given the health care system impacts - it seems irresponsible for an early stage nCOV victim to not try it at a known safe dosage given that it is low cost, is a long time prescribed medication even for rheumatoid arthritis and is relatively common.
I have also been clear that it does not make sense to think chloroquines will help once an nCOV victim has already progressed to stage 2 - viral and bacterial pneumonia - or later.
What I have been doing is to learn about the details of the nCOV virus, the COVID-19 disease progression, the epidemiological outcomes known to date, the ways by which various proposed treatments attack the above and to pass this information on for every person to decide themselves what they want to do.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 14:12 utc | 173

hydroxycloroquine overdose, the boffins say, can destroy the retina of the eyes.

Not a trivial side effect. Nothing to play with. Fer what it worth, better read up on the drug and pay attention. Eyes are nice to have.

Overdose of Q is Bad.

Wally read 60 years ago in Rome newspaper story that British air-line pilots, who drank their Gin an' Tonics, had been discovered to have very poor glare recovery. That, they said, was from the quinine in the tonic water. Henceforth, they were forbidden the tonic water, alas!

But Wally never drives at night and his airplane days ended back in the mists...

He's saving the quinine he's got, for now.

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 14:15 utc | 174

@ Jackrabbit. Agreed.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 22 2020 14:29 utc | 175

Drosten, in his podcast 18, is asked about the higher figures in Italy. He says it is difficult to speculate but maybe it has to do with smoking
In the group age of the deceased, many of these people, especially men (2/3 of the dead are men) have smoked in their life. Same goes
for China and that could explain some figures.
He also recommends to go out and move in fresh air (against, I fail to see why this cannot be organized in big cities with a system of
opening parks at specific hours with reserved access for that or that street or that or that building; why do we pay local taxes for?)
And he recommends to do much more testing.

Posted by: Mina | Mar 22 2020 14:36 utc | 176

It is one thing to say there is a Deep State but another to try to figure out who is part of it.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 22 2020 14:43 utc | 177

Why is anyone concerned with what b has to say on this? He was calling a nothingburger for weeks. Now he says western governments are not doing enough. What a joke.

Posted by: Boldizar | Mar 22 2020 14:44 utc | 178

It is a great site for collecting our emails and take it from there.

Posted by: Jonathan W | Mar 22 2020 14:48 utc | 179

@ Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 10:09 utc | 127

thx great links!
Its a funny coincident that this open air tent hospitals picture is from Boston.
"Boston bombing" is another remarkable event which tooked place in that city.
Martial law was declared to hunt the Tsarnaev brothers. The older Tsarnaev was hired by the cia but then used as a patsie..finally killed in confinement.
The Obama FBI used this to test how far they could go in creating martial law. Beforehand there was a drill with crisis actors on the end of the Boston marathon which then turned into "real"

On oktober 2019 the "Event 201" took place in which also Prof. Gao, director of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention since 2017 was involved. Among also former Deputy Director of the CIA during the Obama term, Avril Haines. The event was supported by the Linda & Bill gates foundation.

On this event the strategy and the design of the "Wuhan virus" epidemic was discussed. A drill which became a real scenario with all the partners of crime in the media.

What becomes more and more clear to me is that the most people in this covid-19 martial law trap, die, aside from precedent diseases, mainly on what I called an "acute pulmonary fibrosis". (not caused by a virus!)
Dr. Richard Hobday wrote: many people "succumbed to a condition similar to acute respiratory distress syndrome that could kill within days or hours".

Posted by: Hempus | Mar 22 2020 14:57 utc | 180

Long and and well researched complete report comparing measures taken in different countries and their proved success. Facts, graphics, and prospects. MUST READ. Spread, please, especially to gvernment officials if you can.

Coronavirus: The Hammer and the Dance

What the Next 18 Months Can Look Like, if Leaders Buy Us Time

Posted by: H.Schmatz | Mar 22 2020 15:19 utc | 181

Posted by: Hempus | Mar 22 2020 14:57 utc | 180
Glad to be of some service :-)

I liked your post because I love classical guitar. Seeing how you connected music to this mess got me think along the lines, "Well I didn't think of that.". Yin-Yang is not strange to me thanks to having Chinese friends and practicing Tai Chi. Tai Chi is all about Energy.

If you have other interesting observations share them if not here than in the Open Thread section.


Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 15:22 utc | 182

Jonathan @144
Stonebird @149
Jonathan W @156

I also have the same suspicion. I have never seen b react so stridently on an issue and wanting to shutdown any reasoned debate. It was quite surprising for me to see b's response to my post analyzing the science of the 'debunking' paper in an earlier thread. All he did was accuse me of being a conspiracy theorist instead of actually tackling the science.

This reminds me of what became of Gwynne Dyer's column a few years ago. Overnight it seemed Dyer switched gears to a much more Empire-friendly tone.

Posted by: JasonT | Mar 22 2020 15:48 utc | 183

Great article on Russian hospital capabilities for treating COVID-19 patients requiring ventilation and Extracorporeal Membrane Oxygenation (ECMO) treatment. Russia appears to be better prepared than the US as it has 27.3 ventilators/100,000 people compared to 18.8/100,000 people in the US. In contrast, Italy only has 8.3 ventilators/100,000 people, which may account for their high death rate.

While Russia has more ventilators per person than Italy, many of the ventilators cannot be used for contemporary lung ventilation procedures. Furthermore, Italy’s medical care system is considered to in the top five in the world. Italy also has a large number of nurses and other medical support staff compared to Russia.

Russia is sending italy “eight mobile brigades of military medics and special disinfection vehicles”. “The doctors and specialized equipment is being flown on nine Il-76 aircraft from an airfield outside Moscow.” Looks like Russia is also trying to get some training to improve their response once the pandemic hits Russia while also supporting the BRI in Italy.

Posted by: Krollchem | Mar 22 2020 15:54 utc | 184

Boldizar | Mar 22 2020 14:44 utc | 178 (why b etc)

Well, fair question.

answer 1 because who says a thing is independent from the verity of his statement.

answer 2 because by the actions of "b" he is gradually telling us, me anyway, who he is. And I like mysteries.

Anybody can see several more reasons, I think.

Wally might remark that your question borders on ad-homenim. It seem kinna silly, maybe rude...I dunno. If b is a German, well, they have some traditions about polite behavior.

You know Pete Seeger an' "The Big Muddy"?

It's on yt. According to your critical question, then, the "captain" ought to march straight in and drown, rather than accept that they are going the wrong way and turn 'round.

Is important

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 15:59 utc | 185

addendum> previously @ moa some one dropped in and claimed that "MoA & "b" are a DNB operation".

I examined that idea, and it seems plausible. However let's assume "b" is a pure and sound true boy-scout in a magical bat-cave.

DNB would still see it all. They'd save money too.

I shall consider Herr b is the true and sound boy-scout. This polite.

Anybody in the phuckin world can read b.

This is best > Assume "There Are No Secrets" (for any of us).

Posted by: Walter | Mar 22 2020 16:08 utc | 186

One possible factor for the high Italian figures is that Ibuprofen was used extensively as a pain killer. Unfortunately this also aggravates the effects of Coronavirus.

(Someone probably has already posted this in the myriad of comments, so I don't claim originality !)

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 22 2020 17:10 utc | 187

Posted by: Hempus | Mar 22 2020 9:20 utc | 115

Its not the virus who produces this waste!
The Viruses finds there the climate to exist!

This is the great misunderstanding of modern science. Modern science is too materialistic. There is rarely only one reason for illness or death. There are most always multiple factors. And the microbes (bacteria, fungi, viruses) are, in general, the result of an event in the organism, not the cause. Causes are many, and microbes find a fertile ground to spread or not. These microbes are around all the time, but we don't care as long as we are in good health. When we get sick we try to put the blame on some microbes, but that's the great misunderstanding. Microbes 'infect' organisms only when there is a reason, when the organisms are already out of balance.

Thank you for your post.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 22 2020 10:09 utc | 127

fresh air and direct sun are one of the best medicines. I cured a number of illnesses and symptoms that I carried for long time with me. They will come back when I sit in rooms for too long. Movement. One has to move, be agile, train the body's lungs, blood and nerve system and muscles. Each day at least one event that provokes high pulse heart beating. The best medicine is probably to keep a good spirit. And not cling to the body. Breathing properly is also important, as Hempus says.

Sitting at home and doing nothing physically is not the best idea, but it's alright for some weeks. One should go out a lot, more than average. Although this can be difficult in a town with coronavirus curfew. Well, then you can excercise a little bit at home and sit at the window or balcony.

Posted by: Allen | Mar 22 2020 13:05 utc | 157

And please don't tell me the solution is some vaccination or some great new cure that will be discovered (and profited from) by the miraculous men of modern medicine.

Vaccines are not the solution, I agree, but they are necessary in case of urgency. I however doubt that there will be a vaccine agains any virus. The best thing we can get, I guess, are drugs that support the organism before and during the illness. For those people who cannot be in fresh air, who cannot move, who cannot enjoy the sun.

Posted by: Phil | Mar 22 2020 18:26 utc | 188

And Glead Remdesivir?

Posted by: Gloria | Mar 22 2020 19:00 utc | 189


From what I have read there has been no indication ibufen give a worse outcome. Only steroids to date. Ibufen is a non steroidal anti inflammatory.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 19:14 utc | 190

In this interview ( german virologist confirms the low death toll of corona in Germany and he argues that this number does not justify draconian measures.
The high death toll in Italy is real enough - though we don't know many people are affected by the virus. However he points out that Northern Italy shares with China a long term high degree of air pollution and associated lung damage. Previously I assumed there would be the 'rich man's' death toll of 0.5-1% and a 'poor man's death toll' of 3-5% but Germany didn't fit with its overall low death count and Italy is uncertain but also doubtful because the death toll seemed to be high despite the high quality of the help. It does not mean the radical strategy is wrong everywhere. It does suggest a strong geographical component. This does not yet mean Italy is wrong in enforcing a lockdown. It could mean Germany would be wrong in enforcing a lockdown. Mitigation strategy could be right for them. This could change the overall picture of the pandemic somewhat.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Mar 22 2020 20:02 utc | 191

Maybe I should put the emphasis differently. he says death rate is 0.3% but only 0.5% gets really ill. That means they don't have this issue with the medical system overloading and suddenly 10 times more people dying. This is significant.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Mar 22 2020 20:36 utc | 192

' A 25-YEAR-old from Llandudno who discovered he had coronavirus initially thought he had the flu.

Connor Reed, who has lived in China for three years and has worked as a manager for a school in Wuhan for seven months, was diagnosed with coronavirus by doctors in December.

Connor, believed to be the 'first Brit known to have caught coronavirus', is said to have shook off the deadly illness with a 'hot toddy' after refusing antibiotics.

Speaking to the Pioneer, the former Ysgol Bro Gwydir pupil said: "What has been said in the national media about me is correct.

"I went to hospital about December 5/6. I was sick before with flu. I had pneumonia type thing, that is why I went to the hospital."

Connor, whose parents Hayley and Rod moved from Llandudno to Australia about 10 years ago, was ill for about two weeks.

He has since made a full recovery.

Connor, who is in quarantine, added: "It is not as serious as how it has been reported.

"I would like to give some acknowledgement to the Chinese authorities for their openness in terms of information. We are well informed, as opposed to Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (Sars) [in 2003].

"The best case of recovery is having enough rest and keeping quarantined and being by yourself. '

Posted by: brian | Mar 22 2020 21:24 utc | 193

Phil | Mar 22 2020 18:26 utc | 188

thanks for reflecting!
I would like to give some more thoughts about breathing, plulmonary fissure and pneumonia because that is the theater of this big Virus swindle.
When a baby leaves the womb of a mother it starts to breath but it cannot walk. It has to learn to deal with gravity to stand up. Usually it takes one and a half year. But to play football like George Best or to dance like Nurejev this is a lot of training for many years, hundreds of techniques. If you like to sing like Maria Callas you need good teachers and special breathing techniques. But there is also an "Art of moving & breathing" but of course you can living without too. Already the Egyptians developed such techniques as: "How to walk in the bright daylight" or "how to speak, sing the magic words" or "breathing in relation with the heavenly regime", or how to move in the heavenly waters.
Breathing is also a space extrusion and that creates waves.
Its possible to be "The Surver" on the waves you produce by yourself. Definitely those waves pass through your body and resonant moreover. But if those waves are not transformed they are like a blind driver...they crash already in your lungs and other tissues, leave an interference field ...crashed energy. After a long life millions of scarfs are on your alveolus and lung tissue. The alveolus loose the flexibility, getting tight and if fear and stress coming additionally this person might die because he cannot open the lungs anymore.
All this problems are not caused by a virus.
But at this crash sites are some energy mortuary: A good location to breed a virus colony.

Posted by: Hempus | Mar 22 2020 22:20 utc | 194


Approaches to moderate onset COVID-19 disease using Chloroquine as an off-the-shelf hammer approach to treatment has toxicity issues. The use of the alternative Hydroxychloroquine, or its sulfate salt, will reduce these toxicological effect but one must still be careful with the dose in the case of diabetic patients with the SARS-CoV-2 infections.

A slower release of this drug along with a higher uptake across epithelial cell walls both in the throat and lungs could be obtained by using niosomes that allow the encapsulation Hydroxychloroquine into labile organic nanospheres.

Preparation of niosomes involves encapsulation of Hydroxychloroquine in a non-ionic surfactant-based vesicle comprised of cholesterol and a non-ionic surfactant.
The recent development of these niosomes have advantages over earlier designed liposomes due to a longer shelf life and the ability to encapsulate hydrophilic and hydrophobic drugs. Niosomes containing hydroxychloroquine have been shown to be effective in treatment of the oral lichen planus immune disorder.

As an alternative to Hydroxychloroquine, Quercetin and other similar non-toxic bioflavanoids appear to serve the same function as Hydroxychloroquinine and Chloroquinine as Zinc Ionophores for inhibiting virus replicase as described in

Quercetin bioavailability via this mechanism is generally less than Hydroxychloroquinine, however, its encapsulation in liposomes has been shown to increase its effectiveness.

Quercetin may be even more effective if incorporated in phytosomes where it is chemically bonded to phospholipids. The preparation of liposomes and phytosomes and some of their applications are described here:

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 22 2020 22:24 utc | 195

@JasonT #183
The belief that coronavirus is a bioweapon or manufactured is the product of ignorance on just how difficult it is to create a new virus - especially without widespread testing to verify effectiveness.
Equally, there is a very well defined trail going from bats, to pangolins, to the human infection version.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 22:51 utc | 196

SARS was found in civets, and MERS was found in camels and bats.
As yet SARS-CoV-2 has not been found in an animal host. It is a cross between a known bat strain and a known pangolin strain. Where it came from is as yet unknown and origins undefined.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 22 2020 23:01 utc | 197

@krollchem #195
the chloroquines have side effects, but the reality is still that it is a 50+ year old drug which is extremely well understood and has been used widely worldwide.
The same cannot be said for any of the alternatives you put forward.
I'm not saying these other potential treatments will or will not prove out over time - simply that my personal view is the use of a product that is multi-decade tested in the real world, is affordable and has a reasonable path towards efficacy is better than trying things which are completely new and untested.
The individual risk faced by someone contracting nCOV this instant is not the same as stage 4 cancer, for example, where death is pretty much certain anyway and testing isn't going to change the outcomes to be worse.

I would also note that the theoretical packaging or products you mention have no more likelihood of being truly effective than the chloroquines in existing form - therefore my view is the least likelihood of harm is more important than anything else.

And to be clear, the off-label use of chloroquines is certainly going to accelerate the time when nCOV evolves a defense against it.

The situation today is one where over 200,000 people are confirmed nCOV cases (and have not recovered or died already). This number is going to increase to a significant degree in the next month - and a significant number of them are going to have serious complications, with some dying.

Put mathematically: a healthy person who contracts nCOV this instant, who is 20-59, has a 0.2% or less chance of dying from nCOV. They have a 16%-20% chance of getting serious complications, possibly requiring a hospital stay. This just isn't a bad enough situation to risk taking totally unproven products - both unproven in safety and efficacy.
Taking a product which is unproven in efficacy but is proven in safety, is a different risk scenario entirely.

But that's my personal view, YMMV.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 22 2020 23:02 utc | 198

One must not labor under the delusion that it is the job of the "intelligence services" -- or that they regard it as their job -- to warn the public about threats to the common good.

In fact, almost precisely the opposite is the case: It is the job of the "intelligence services" to counter and degrade the public good at every opportunity, real or manufactured.

Posted by: corvo | Mar 23 2020 0:06 utc | 199


Thanks for offering a critical viewpoint to my attempts to understand the mechanism of the COVID-19 disease progression. Some of my reservations relate to a aversion to ingesting chlorinated organic compounds if alternative exist.

The reason I am looking at the effectiveness of Quercetin is related to its
(1) antiviral properties

Quercetin and the mixture of isoquercitrin have been found to suppress the arthropod-borne Mayaro virus (MAYV) occurring in forested areas in tropical South America:

Perhaps we will see soon if some results soon for the SARS-CoV-2 virus

Other bioflavonoids option exist such as the reported effective inhibition of MERS-CoV infection by resveratrol.

and (2),
Enhancing mitochondrial function among the aged who have higher levels of the C-38 NADase protein.

Posted by: krollchem | Mar 23 2020 0:40 utc | 200

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