Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 17, 2020

Coronavirus - A Lockdown Is Not Enough

Dr. Carl Juaneau, who is specialized in epidemiology, has pointed me to a page where he collects useful information about the novel Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2 and the current pandemic it causes.

COVID-19: Why America May Be Hit Hard for 3-4 Months & What To Do

It is quite good. Make sure that you scroll beyond the long country statistic for additional useful information.


Eight days after we wrote Why We Must Shut Everything Down And Do It Now it finally gets done. European countries have closed their borders and told their people to hunker down. Major car companies like Volkswagen, Peugeot and Fiat have stopped their production as car sales have slumped anyway. Airbus shut down two of its production sites to revamp them for better protection of its workers. In the U.S. the Bay Area, New York, Seattle and other major cities have also basically closed down.

Even Britain's Prime Minister Boris Johnson has changed his mind. Instead of taking it "on the chin" as he had suggested and letting many people die until the rest achieves 'herd immunity' Britain will now finally try to stop the spreading epidemic.

Racism is the reason that this is happening so late. China, South Korea and Singapore had already shown what needs to be done fo fight the epidemic and how to do it successfully. But Asian voices do not count in 'white' decision making. The political action in Europe and the U.S. only started to happen after Italy was hit very hard.

And our governments are still not doing enough.

We must test every person's temperature at airports and trains and build up drive thru testing capacity. If one does not search for the virus one will not find it. We must test, test, test to track all virus carriers down and to stop the spreading. 

There must be a mandatory isolation of people who are probably infected but do not show symptoms as well as separate isolation of suspected and detected cases with 'mild' symptoms.

Telling a probably infected person to shelter with their family, as is now done in the U.S. and the U.K, will only kill more people. 75%-80% of the cases in China got infected through direct family contact. The family chain must be broken to effectively stop the epidemic.

Probably infected persons, i.e. those who had contact with another infected person, should be put under quarantine in sport arenas or exposition facilities to be supervised by medics.

Contact tracing teams must ask each of them with whom they met over the last days and then check on those persons. This requires lots of people and resources but China has show that it is doable. Tracing cellphones may be useful to help with this. Community monitoring may be a viable alternative.

Additional hospital capacity must be built. There must be hospitals exclusively for Covis-19 cases and others for people with different medical problems.

NYT science and health reporter Donald McNeil, who was in China during the shutdown, explains very well how China has beaten the epidemic in Wuhan. Please watch this:

Organizing all those measures is exactly what our governments should have done since the end of January. Today they are still only discussing most of those measures.

Boris Johnson is said to have changed his strategy based on a new study from the Imperial College. The study says:

Two fundamental strategies are possible: (a) mitigation, which focuses on slowing but not necessarily stopping epidemic spread – reducing peak healthcare demand while protecting those most at risk of severe disease from infection, and (b) suppression, which aims to reverse epidemic growth, reducing case numbers to low levels and maintaining that situation indefinitely.

Mitigation was the way Boris Johnson had planned to go because he wanted to achieve 'herd immunity' for all of Britain. That is something that can only be done through vaccinations. The idea was clearly lunatic. The study says that such a 'mitigation' would have resulted in "hundreds of thousands of deaths and health systems (most notably intensive care units) being overwhelmed many times over."

That leaves suppression as the only way to go. Cut the epidemic down as much as possible and test, test, test to find each and every new case. Cutting the epidemic down requires a two months shutdown and all the above listed additional measures.

There was by the way nothing new in Johnson's 'new' Imperial College study. Here is Richard Horten, the editor of the famous medical journal Lancet, telling it like it is (emphasis added):

richard horton @richardhorton1 - 6:56 UTC · Mar 17, 2020

It said it took a study from Imperial to understand the likely burden of COVID-19 on the NHS. But read the first paper we published on COVID-19 on Jan 24. 32% admitted to ITU with 15% mortality. We have wasted 7 weeks. This crisis was entirely preventable.

The morning after the dramatic change in strategy to COVID-19 by this govt, I can’t help but feel angry that it has taken almost two months for politicians and even “experts” to understand the scale of the danger from SARS-CoV-2. Those dangers were clear from the very beginning.

Chinese clinicians and scientists—Chen Wang, George Gao, Chen Zhu, Bin Cao—did the world a great service by immediately sharing their data, warning the world that SARS-CoV-2 was a dangerous new virus. I’m appalled to say that western “experts” failed to heed their warnings.

Laura Kuenssberg says (BBC) that, “The science has changed.” This is not true. The science has been the same since January. What has changed is that govt advisors have at last understood what really took place in China and what is now taking place in Italy. It was there to see.

Even with a shutdown the situation for Britain's National Health Service is likely to become catastrophic. The red line in the graphic below is the actual critical case capacity the NHS has. There are some 10 critical care beds per 100.000 people. All prediction variants show that it will be exceed several times. Johnson's 'do nothing' strategy would have required 180 critical care beds per 100,000 people.  Even with all measures that will now be taken there will likely be a need for several more critical care beds for each one that currently exists.


"You may live" and "you must die" decisions will have to be made as there is not enough capacity in place.

Shutting down most public life is now clearly the best thing to do. In Italy, the town of Lodi (green) had the first case, and locked down on Feb 23. Bergamo (red) waited until March 8. See the difference:

Source - bigger

Today ANSA reported that there are now no more free intensive care beds in Bergamo, a city with more than 120,000 inhabitants.

The delay between the shutdown in Wuhan and a fall in new daily cases was 12 days. 10 to 14 days from now we will probably see a drop in the number of new cases in European societies and within the shutdown areas in the U.S. But that is not guaranteed unless the additional measures come into play.

The late shutdown decisions by 'western' governments come at a very high price. Many more people will die because the time and information China gave us to prepare was not used to make the necessary decisions. The late decisions will also increase the time it will take to fight the epidemic down. They thereby also increased the economic damage all this will cause.

People should ask their governments why they disregarded the information and experience from Asia.

Previous Moon of Alabama posts on the issue:

Posted by b on March 17, 2020 at 18:39 UTC | Permalink

next page »

At some point in a shutdown, starvation will become a problem. The authorities will have to implement a food distribution strategy so that everyone can get a share of the available food instead of just the hoarders and usurious re-sellers.

Posted by: JasonT | Mar 17 2020 18:48 utc | 1

This is a worthwhile opinion piece to read, not for its information but for its view of the situation,

A HREF="">When the Coronavirus Scare Is Over, Economic Armageddon Will Remain!

Posted by: JasonT | Mar 17 2020 18:57 utc | 2

Here in a part of South Western rural France the Gendarmes are out and about stopping people. If you don’t have written permission to be outside your residence, e.g. to go shopping, going to the chemist etc, the fine starts at 35 euro. If you get continually caught the fine increases to 1.330 Euros. France IS taking the virus seriously, better late than never.

Posted by: Beibdnn | Mar 17 2020 18:58 utc | 3

thank you b... the video in the middle is good.. china has done everything they can to help... meanwhile, trump refers to it as the china virus... boris the chimp is finally on board... i still can't believe the uk people voted for him.. i think we are on new ground here and as others have said - things are not going to return to normal any time soon.. this is a bigger event then 9-11 in terms of significance and impact.

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2020 18:58 utc | 4

When the Coronavirus Scare Is Over, Economic Armageddon Will Remain
Hopefully the above is a better linky.

Posted by: JasonT | Mar 17 2020 18:59 utc | 5

@ 3 hey sharon... lets revisit this in a month... i addressed your comments on the previous thread, but you may not have seen them.. i personally think you are underestimating what is going on here..

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2020 19:00 utc | 6

China’s is a perfect example of how to act. We need to kick all capitalist journalists out of the country, and have the US government take the lead in all future reporting on the virus. Shut down these comment sections immediately. We can only beat this if we all think exactly the same.

Posted by: Billy | Mar 17 2020 19:04 utc | 7

" keep the hospitals from being overwhelmed "... here where i live the hospital is already running at 100% and no declared cases of covid 19 in this community yet... think about that for a minute.. if it comes here, and it sounds like it will - it won't take much to overwhelm the hospital... - i am on vancouver island..

Posted by: james | Mar 17 2020 19:14 utc | 8

In "Clusterfucks R Us" Oz, Scum Mo's "decisive action" thieves, bandits, cheapskates and liars have diverted $millions earmarked for bushfire disaster relief to Coronavirus disaster relief. One of his fake ministers announced that "Oz has obtained 89,000 new test kits which will be added to our existing stockpile." BUT there have never been enough test kits so the "existing stockpile" drivel means "hardly any". And that was the same for masks for which the stockpile turned out to be zero.

Oz won't be able to get on top of the pandemic until Scum Mo and his henchmen are quarantined, incommunicado, in the lunatic asylum from which they escaped.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 17 2020 19:17 utc | 9

This is just vile. What a complete psychological meltdown. Pure hysteria. Sieg Heil.

For the life of me I can't imagine why those here who have surrendered to this insanity even pretended to oppose the empire, the "war on terror", creeping and now galloping totalitarianism...

I'd bet any amount of money that deep down it's not really any physical fears for oneself (let alone for others) that has everyone losing their minds and shrieking for the government to imprison them all in order to save them, but that it's seeing this worthless economy of junk tottering.

Well, now you have your own White Helmets/OPCW to worship and obey.

Thank god I still know some people in real life who still retain their humanity and vow to continue living as human beings, even as so many are, in real time, openly screaming that they want to rush to permanent totalitarianism right this moment.

And over NOTHING even remotely comparable as an evil to the "cure" for which they shriek.

Posted by: Russ | Mar 17 2020 19:25 utc | 10

I must admit: I clearly am not able to judge this. Both sides are very convincing to me. And both sides are both extremes. What side is true? I dont have a fucking clue.
But my personal belief as a (young) old school social democrat always is to give preference to social concerns over economy. As i am in danger myself with having a chronic lung disease, i surely understand that exposing 100,000s of my fellow compatriots here in Germany to death (which are expected when correlating the death rate and likely spreading in case of no shutdowns), is no position to take.
Eugenists like the Algo Saxons may differ.
We will only know for sure in some years. But not taking the measures now would be a gamble with the lives of millions all over the world.

My fear is, that after 30-40 years of neoliberal indoctrination, no solidarity of social resposibility exists anymore here.
That was different long time ago, but the times where our society would have pulled and stood together are long gone.
Going grocery shopping is totally mad now, no more bread, soap, milk, sugar, grain, canned vegetables.. (and ofc the famous toilet paper hoarders).

Even flu vacs are out, even for risked demographics like me with lung disease.

The veneer of civilization is already coming off, what will be in 2-3 months??

I expected our economy to crash, our society and the EU to disintegrate. But SO SOON? Even i am suprised.

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Mar 17 2020 19:26 utc | 11

A much clearer description of the Italian situation.

This was updated on 17th of March,

According to the latest data of the Italian National Health Institute ISS, the average age of the positively-tested deceased in Italy is currently about 81 years. 10% of the deceased are over 90 years old. 90% of the deceased are over 70 years old.

80% of the deceased had suffered from two or more chronic diseases. 50% of the deceased had suffered from three or more chronic diseases. The chronic diseases include in particular cardiovascular problems, diabetes, respiratory problems and cancer.

Less than 1% of the deceased were healthy persons, i.e. persons without pre-existing chronic diseases. Only about 25% of the deceased are women.

The doctor also points out the following aspects:

Northern Italy has one of the oldest populations and the worst air quality in Europe, which has already led to an increased number of respiratory diseases and deaths in the past and is likely an additional risk factor in the current epidemic.


Posted by: Tom_LX | Mar 17 2020 19:35 utc | 12

2020. May Truth RIP. After a long illness, alt. Media passed on and joined MSM. Both have ascended from this world and are no longer constrained by truth and facts. For those left on earth, maybe we can return to the days of underground news letters because the DOD-ARAPNET created internet is obviously under martial law.

For aliens enroute to Earth hoping to meet intelligent life and likely monitoring communications, so sorry you have made the long trip. As you can see there is no longer any intelligent life here on Earth, must be a virus or something. Go home ET, lest you get infected as well.

Posted by: Pft | Mar 17 2020 19:35 utc | 13

>hysteria panic, which is far more contagious than the corona virus itself.

So the intensive care beds in Italy are filled with hysterical people, not deathly ill people?

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Mar 17 2020 19:44 utc | 14

Wouldn’t it be simpler and cheaper given the death statistics to isolate the at risk population.

Maybe we could avoid the depression that assuredly will follow your prescribed course of action. A depression that will kill far more people than this virus if we isolate the olds. I happen to be one of the olds and would rather take the risks attendant on my strategy then risk my child’s future with yours.

Posted by: Hvd | Mar 17 2020 19:47 utc | 15

Thanks b, for your continuing helpful information.

US Healthcare professionals are in fright. On the previous thread I posted the press release from the Society of Critical Medicine-the system will be overwhelmed by shortage of specialists and ventilators.

That's not the only shortages I see.

The US leadership have a shortage of basic decency. In this COVID-19 pandemic the US should lift sanctions on Iran:
Earlier, Tehran called on Washington to lift its economic sanctions as they prevent Iran from adequately responding to the Covid-19 outbreak. Other countries, such as Russia and China, have also urged the US to cancel the sanctions against Iran. LINK

Karma will bitch slap.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 17 2020 19:51 utc | 16

@ 25


A lesson for Pompeo.

Cuba give a helping hand: the UK is very grateful for Cuba's help to Cruise Ship with COVID-19 infected passengers

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 17 2020 19:57 utc | 17

@Tom_LX #19
The problem is that the 10% are the rest of the population. That's 250 out of total 31,500 infected. If say, half of these are 70 or older, we're still talking about a significant mortality rate.
Normally, you see single digit percentages of dead working age people in a war.

Posted by: c1ue | Mar 17 2020 20:04 utc | 18

"..Do not believe China's claims of "returning to normal"......My own sources,..."

Are yr sources include - Gordon C Chang, NTD (New Tang Dynasty Television) Gladstone Institutes, and..... more

Posted by: JC | Mar 17 2020 20:07 utc | 19

DontBelieveEitherPR @17

I'm with you on everything you said. I think it is possible that both things are true. We have a raging epidemic that needs to be addressed by all of humanity working together. I would prefer that be voluntary, but as you stated, we may lack the social responsibility to make that happen. At the same time, the crisis is being used to usurp freedoms that stand a good chance of being permanently removed.

Based on the information available, I'm pretty certain that this was created as a bio-weapon. How or who released it, if intentional or not, is not yet known to us. Sadly, as an American, I'm not discounting that my country created and released it against its perceived enemy (China, Iran). After all, we know that the use of nuclear weapons to conquer Russia has been and still is acceptable by the USA as long as our losses were only xx million.

Regardless, for now we have two tasks. 1) To do all we can to protect and treat as many people as possible and especially our health care workers as outlined by b. 2) To demand that any draconian processes that removed our freedoms are thoroughly and immediately repealed as soon as the crisis abates. We should be pressing our governments on both of these NOW. If we fail in either of these, we will have succumbed to the will of the NWO.

I see some good that has come out of this situation so far. First, more people seem to be waking up to the desire to care for others both in their own community and abroad. Second, the awakening to the corrupt and fragile economic system we have. One that is once again quick to provide socialism for banks and large corporations and capitalism for everyone else.

Good luck to all. If we work together we can beat this.

Posted by: lgfocus | Mar 17 2020 20:19 utc | 20

By the looks of this comment thread, a lot of people struggle with reality.
We have lived in a lucky age with antibiotics and vaccinations that have prevented pandemics.
No wars between great powers for the last 70 years.

This pandemic will change our world right down to the personal level for the foreseeable future - well until a vaccine comes out. For those intellectually challenged by reality, dont blame your problems on b.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 17 2020 20:22 utc | 21

Sharon M, agree. very surprised by the enthusiastic buy-in.'sheltered in place' in the east bay and our folks angry, different from those who believe in the constitution and feel their rights violated. a different anger fueled by mistrust and generational resistance.

Posted by: kiawi | Mar 17 2020 20:24 utc | 22

The Dow is up 1,000 pts on the announcement that $1,000 checks will be "printed-out-of-air" for each American citizen as part of an $850 billion stimulating package. Drip, drip in bits to north of $3 trillion. Industry sector will need north of $1.5 trillion.

To my U.S. barflies, how far will a USD$1,000 take ya?

I am math challenged. My trusted calculator: Assume a 3 week lay-off and rest assured it will be months:

$15.00 per hour minimum wage 40 hours per week x 3 weeks = $1,800.

and those with debt and no savings?

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 17 2020 20:31 utc | 23

There's a front page article in today's edition of Bezos's organ the Washington Post from a reporter based in Peking giving first-hand evidence that life in Peking is returning to normal. Restaurants have reopened.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 17 2020 20:31 utc | 24

As an Asthmatic I found this information interesting. You might need to scroll down - as simple solutions (mainly before you really get it !) are near the end.

Quotes; A: Are you asking for some simple recommendations? First of all, take a good care for the nasal mucosa and oropharyngeal area.

Q: To wash it with saltwater?
A: Yes, wash it thoroughly. But “lors” – non-prescription medications and sinus cleaners to stop running nose and for an effective lavage. That is, the feeling of free unobstructed breath should come after all. The second thing is the oropharyngeal area behind the uvula. And there, too, you need to make a good lavage of the oropharyngeal region.

Q: So you don’t just have to squirt it up your nose, you have to gargle it deep down your throat?
A: Yes, and rinse it out. And don’t be lazy. Do do it until you get a feeling of clean, good airways. Of all the ways, this is the most effective. I would advise those people who can afford to buy a nebulizer or…

Q: Do you mean, it’s aerosol, right? With ultrasound?
A: Yes. And it allows the hygiene of the upper respiratory tract to be brought to a good state. When a cough starts, it is desirable to still apply the medications that we prescribe for patients with bronchial asthma. This is either Berodual, or Ventolin, or Salbutamol. Because these drugs improve mucociliary clearance, relieve spasm.

Q: You mean expectorant?” Mucolytic ACC?
A: Yes, ACC and Fluimucil. And what you can’t do is use glucocorticosteroids. This virus replication is rapidly increasing by them.

Q: What does that mean?
A: Corticosteroids is prednisone, methylprednisolone, dexamethasone, betamethasone.

Q: So you don’t need to inject hormones, relatively speaking, if you have a viral infection?
A: There are inhaled steroids. But there are patients with asthma who are ill and are on this therapy. But this has to be a tailor-made solutions.


b's and most western Government's change of heart, makes sense if the re-infection rate is much higher and more lethal than the first onset of the virus. I don't know the truth about this but there was a small, quickly suppressed, report from *researchers* in Hubei that this is the case. The second time round we are talking about an attack on the "vital" organs (heart etc) in a relatively short period of days.

What will happen is a societal collapse, or a total financial scam where the billionaires come out of hiding and take everything for a few shekels. Remember that debts can be "claimed" decades after they are made. So ordinary people will have to pay back all these massive "aids" later, through taxes.

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 17 2020 20:33 utc | 25

My two critical comments have been erased. Didn't know b did such things. But I can't erase a Rachel Maddow/MSNBC video, of all videos, posted in an "alternative" news site. You may as well just post a picture of masses of people with their hands up surrendering to the pandemic panic. This should never have to be restated to b, but apparently he's been kidnapped:

"Those who would give up their liberty for security, deserve neither"

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 17 2020 20:35 utc | 26

lysias 24

Areas that were not hard hit in China came out of lockdown a week or so back.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 17 2020 20:39 utc | 27

Although I would not be surprised to learn that racism (and the Great Game hybrid infowars) do play a role; I think another distinguish feature is the degree to which corporations and neoliberal actors hold sway over Western governments. Even though Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and China have powerful business combines, I think there is still a sense of a national industrial strategy (that recognizes the people as a competitive resource). I had expected and hoped to see Russia under President Putin also recognizing that effective management of the pandemic, and coming out the other side quickly and with minimal damage, to join China and the other effective responders, might be seen as a source of immense strategic advantage. Then I saw a Russian football stadium jammed with people, just 2 days ago. So maybe not.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Mar 17 2020 20:41 utc | 28

Did Western governments fail for so long to learn from the Chinese example because of racism or because they wanted the epidemic to occur?

My household has had the foresight to stock up on a few months' worth of rice and beans. Is that hoarding? Should we be made to share it? Rice and beans are not exactly luxury.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 17 2020 20:43 utc | 29

@6 james

I do not believe we did vote for Johnson. Several indicators include a doubling of postal votes from 19% in 2017 to 38% in 2019, the suicidal remain stance by Starmer (Trilateral Commission member and next leader of Labour), the media telling us there would be an 80 seat win 48hrs before the vote and Prime Minister Theresa May telling Corbyn "We will not let you become Prime Minister"

I still ponder just who We is, and how far We goes...

Posted by: Some Random Passerby | Mar 17 2020 20:50 utc | 30

The American Liberace Grifter in Chief tweeted that this is a Chinese virus to show everyone his superior brilliance.

Americans and much of the Western world deserves every gram of bad karma coming its deserved way...and I am an American

Thanks for the evolving reporting b. Signs of a honorable journalist

Posted by: psychohistorian | Mar 17 2020 20:50 utc | 31

San Francisco and most Bay Area counties have now ordered a "shelter in place" - it will be a misdemeanor offense to go out without a good reason (although charges will be "a last resort", whatever that means.)

Well, are the Board of Supervisors going to feed us, too? Because I need to go the store today - assuming there's any food left in the store. I went to my usual convenience store a block away from me that I usually go to, intending to pick up my usual lettuce and tomatoes. They're completely out of tomatoes, although they still had lettuce.

This is going to be a problem in a lot less than two weeks. And given that this is likely to continue for at least a month, maybe three or four... Everyone is assuming these measures will only be for two weeks. Good luck with that...

My dental appointment for next Monday was canceled today, as dentists are closing down. They said they would reschedule in two weeks. Good luck with that, too...

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 17 2020 20:52 utc | 32

From Australian Government Dept. of Health:

"Of the 375 confirmed cases in Australia, 27 have recovered and 5 have died from COVID-19."

That is 5 (five) - no ages given.

From Yahoo....

"A 90-year-old woman died on Saturday and testing confirmed that she had COVID-19, NSW Health said in a statement on Sunday night.
A 77-year-old woman has also died from coronavirus, NSW Health said on Sunday.
Three other Australians, aged 95, 82 and 78, have also died."

Extreme measures should be taken to protect the elderly and the infirm.

If I am missing something here please feel free to enlighten me.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 17 2020 20:54 utc | 33

Stonebird | Mar 17 2020 20:33 utc | 25 I keep seeing people recommending this salt water lavage.

So I looked it up on the Internet. No, it does *not* kill the virus. It might ease the symptoms, but does nothing to eliminate the virus.

As far as I know from reading so far, there are *no* "home remedies" that can deal with this virus.

I have seen suggestions to boost your vitamin intake in hopes of boosting your immune system. I've upped my C to 3 grams a day instead of my usual 1 and my D-3 to 6,000 units instead of my usual 4,000.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 17 2020 20:57 utc | 34

What is happening now in Italy explained by one of the doctors fighting the pandemic in Bergamo, this was on 9 March, today the situation in Bergamo and all Italy is much worse with this "normal flu" (sarc):

Dr Daniele Macchini's post, translated by Dr Silvia Stringhini

"After much thought about whether and what to write about what is happening to us, I felt that silence was not responsible.

"I will therefore try to convey to people far from our reality what we are living in Bergamo in these days of Covid-19 pandemic. I understand the need not to create panic, but when the message of the dangerousness of what is happening does not reach people I shudder.

"I myself watched with some amazement the reorganization of the entire hospital in the past week, when our current enemy was still in the shadows: the wards slowly 'emptied', elective activities were interrupted, intensive care were freed up to create as many beds as possible.

"All this rapid transformation brought an atmosphere of silence and surreal emptiness to the corridors of the hospital that we did not yet understand, waiting for a war that was yet to begin and that many (including me) were not so sure would ever come with such ferocity.

"I still remember my night call a week ago when I was waiting for the results of a swab. When I think about it, my anxiety over one possible case seems almost ridiculous and unjustified, now that I've seen what's happening. Well, the situation now is dramatic to say the least.

"The war has literally exploded and battles are uninterrupted day and night. But now that need for beds has arrived in all its drama. One after the other the departments that had been emptied fill up at an impressive pace.

"The boards with the names of the patients, of different colours depending on the operating unit, are now all red and instead of surgery you see the diagnosis, which is always the damned same: bilateral interstitial pneumonia.

"Now, explain to me which flu virus causes such a rapid drama. [post continues comparing Covid19 to flu, link here]. And while there are still people who boast of not being afraid by ignoring directions, protesting because their normal routine is 'temporarily' put in crisis, the epidemiological disaster is taking place. And there are no more surgeons, urologists, orthopedists, we are only doctors who suddenly become part of a single team to face this tsunami that has overwhelmed us.

"Cases are multiplying, we arrive at a rate of 15-20 admissions per day all for the same reason. The results of the swabs now come one after the other: positive, positive, positive. Suddenly the E.R. is collapsing.

"Reasons for the access always the same: fever and breathing difficulties, fever and cough, respiratory failure. Radiology reports always the same: bilateral interstitial pneumonia, bilateral interstitial pneumonia, bilateral interstitial pneumonia. All to be hospitalized.

"Someone already to be intubated and go to intensive care. For others it's too late... Every ventilator becomes like gold: those in operating theatres that have now suspended their non-urgent activity become intensive care places that did not exist before.

"The staff is exhausted. I saw the tiredness on faces that didn't know what it was despite the already exhausting workloads they had. I saw a solidarity of all of us, who never failed to go to our internist colleagues to ask, 'What can I do for you now?'

"Doctors who move beds and transfer patients, who administer therapies instead of nurses. Nurses with tears in their eyes because we can't save everyone, and the vital parameters of several patients at the same time reveal an already marked destiny.

"There are no more shifts, no more hours. Social life is suspended for us. We no longer see our families for fear of infecting them. Some of us have already become infected despite the protocols.

"Some of our colleagues who are infected also have infected relatives and some of their relatives are already struggling between life and death. So be patient, you can't go to the theatre, museums or the gym. Try to have pity on the myriad of old people you could exterminate.

"We just try to make ourselves useful. You should do the same: we influence the life and death of a few dozen people. You with yours, many more. Please share this message. We must spread the word to prevent what is happening here from happening all over Italy.

"I finish by saying that I really don't understand this war on panic. The only reason I see is mask shortages, but there's no mask on sale anymore. We don't have a lot of studies, but is it panic really worse than neglect and carelessness during an epidemic of this sort?"

And now let the people make "normal life" and adquire "herd immunity", BoJo and a good part of the western governments (if not all) are criminals

Posted by: DFC | Mar 17 2020 20:59 utc | 35

It really beggars belief that normally sensible people persist in the nonsense that the current crisis was designed to take away the liberty of Americans.

Any government that has wanted to do that has simply had to ask them: Americans give away liberties, civil rights, legal safeguards with a relish. Then they re-elect the politicians who stole those freedoms. This was well established by the time of the Palmer Raids. In the last century Americans have readily agreed to ban socialists in trade unions, watch while primaries are stolen, allow the President to arrogate the war making power. And anything else a fascist could ever ask for.

And yet, we are suddenly asked to believe, it has now become necessary to arrange a pandemic in order to persuade people to sacrifice their rights to cough what they want where they want over whomsoever they might choose; to go to work whether sick or well, because it is their god given right to spread any diseases that they might have acquired.

So far, all that I have seen from the imperialist governments, which are clearly at a complete loss as to what to do, are the long overdue imposition of sensible restrictions on potential disease spreaders, that were routinely accepted in Chaucer's fucking day!
As I have noted before, the current crises are a severe and perhaps terminal embarrassment to the capitalist class, which is beginning to realise that the ideology that didn't work in the late C18th doesn't work 200 plus years later, simply because it has been rebranded as neo-liberalism.
Now is the time to be pressing for reform, for the sort of responses that b outlines above and for the complete destruction of the for profit healthcare system from pharmaceutical manufacturing to the "care home" racket. And all in between.
Then we can get to work on providing a social safety net- a week after the SNAP Food Stamp programme was gutted.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 17 2020 21:03 utc | 36

If or when they institute drive through testing coupled with online self diagnosis you will see a mad rush of healthy people rushing for the test like they did for toilet paper. This is a sociologist and psychologists dream. They will be studying this event in detail for years.

There was distrust from what was going on in China but I think the US did pay attention to what was going on in Korea and Japan. So far the affects are minimal and only time will tell if this explodes or recedes.

It is easy to be a keyboard quarterback. Getting resources coordinated in a massive country is quite another story.

Posted by: dltravers | Mar 17 2020 21:03 utc | 37

so do we do this EVERY flu season? what makes novel corona virus 19 different? just the hysteria

' The family chain must be broken to effectively stop the epidemic.'
thats ridiculous!

Posted by: brian | Mar 17 2020 21:05 utc | 38

@ SharonM 26 My two critical comments have been erased. Didn't know b did such things.

When b erases, due over-the-top abuse, he will post an announcement in the comments.

I find when using Safari browser some embedded links, with flash or "live" videos, will disappear the comment.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 17 2020 21:05 utc | 39

Hvd @15

Your proposal makes a lot of sense, except for one thing:

We don't really know which strain is going to hit us, here in the US. All five of currently identified strains of the virus have been reported here, while Iran, where a special one is raging, different from the one in Hubei and extremely deadly by the looks of it (1/2 of total cases are reported dead; what with part of the government getting ill right at the start, these 3 things are of course feeding the theory that this is some biological war action by Israel and/or the US, and who can blame the theorizers?) Be that as it may, the fact that we are not sure if we are to be hit by a very virulent or relatively tame virus -- tame for the population under-65, that is.

Isolating everybody? Not possible for a multiple-month duration.

Posted by: Piero Colombo | Mar 17 2020 21:12 utc | 40

Some Random Passerby | Mar 17 2020 20:50 utc | 30

Yes, I am also very doubtful 'we' voted for Johnson. As well as the ridiculously high, and conveniently spaced, alleged postal vote, the unseemly hurry to hold that general election in December and the media's orchestrated campaign against the Labour campaign now looks even more suspicious given subsequent events. Was the plan to clear the decks of UK politics, with Brexit etc, and make sure all opposition was completely humiliated and neutralised so that a stooge like Johnson could with a free hand collude in crashing the financial markets and wrecking the economy so the banks could be bailed out again (as I feel will happen)? All under the cover of the coronavirus.

Posted by: Tom74 | Mar 17 2020 21:12 utc | 41

It is impossible to convince some people, for many they will never be convinced that this is a pandemic, because they do not want to know what is happening right now in the overwhelming ICU's in North Italy or Madrid, but probably they end up seeing this in their cities if their leaders do not take draconian measures. OK some of them even knowing this epidemic will kill hundred of thousands of fellow countrymen will not change their minds, but may be some o them have a never know with this disasters

Posted by: DFC | Mar 17 2020 21:15 utc | 42


The comment has been erased, but you said something to the effect that there's all this hysteria because of 'just a flu'.

Your comment reveals a fundamental ignorance, that seems to be very widespread. There is no such thing as 'just a flu'. Influenza is not merely a particularly bad cold. It is a disease which is inherently deadly; at all times potentially lethal. Maybe it doesn't seem like it in this age of widespread immunity and vaccines, but more mundane strains of it still regularly kill people in their thousands.

The danger in coronavirus is that currently no one has immunity to it. The Spanish Flu of a century ago infected a quarter of the planet and killed up to a hundred million people. Some significant fraction of that is the worst case scenario for the current outbreak.

And it's one thing to dismiss Italy because it's mostly very old people dying. Iran is a very young country, and just today Iranian state TV warned that the virus there could kill millions. Does that seem like 'just a flu' to you?

Speaking of Iran, if even just hundreds of thousands there die, to say nothing of millions, one of the outcomes could be the overthrow of the Iranian government. They're already on shaky ground because of recent events. And there's no guarantee that whatever replaced it would be any better, nor that it wouldn't be subservient to the Gulf States, Israel, and the US. One of the consequences of COVID-19 could be the collapse of the Axis of Resistance, which would be a bad thing in general, and particularly for Syria, which is finally piecing itself back together (made even worse if the virus tears through Syria).

And I've got to say, it's amusing to watch the idiots come out of the woodwork, screaming about the 'NWO' and how b has betrayed the cause or whatever. Especially Russ. 'Sieg Heil'? You fucking muppet. It'll be fun to see what you smooth brains have to say in a few weeks time, if and when the bodies start pilling up in the streets in earnest.

Posted by: Benjamin | Mar 17 2020 21:15 utc | 43

Thank you, Russ @ 10

Posted by: Art | Mar 17 2020 21:19 utc | 44

The armchair epidemiologists are really something else! They're in the same boat as Jared Kushner and TrumpCo as the following citation from this article makes clear (Hat Tip to Pepe Escobar):

"For weeks [Trump] resisted telling Americans to cancel or stay away from large gatherings, reluctant even on Thursday to call off his own campaign rallies even as he grudgingly acknowledged he would probably have to. Instead it fell to Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the government’s most famous scientist, to say publicly what the president would not, leading the nation’s basketball, hockey, soccer, and baseball leagues in just 24 hours to suspend play and call off tournaments. Mayors and county executives, hospital executives, and factory owners received no further direction from the president as he talked about the virus in the Oval Office on Thursday than they did during his prime-time address to the nation the night before. Beyond travel limits and wash-your-hands reminders, Mr. Trump has left it to others to set the course in combating the pandemic and has indicated he was in no rush to take further action."

At first, Trump clearly thought he torpedoed China's economy with his bioweapon attack and there'd be few if any desperate consequences. Pompeo, Pence, and Trump continued to pile on with ubber-arrogant racism and smears of China, while within their ideologically addled brains they assumed China would never be able to mount the sort of defense and counter-attack that ensued. Once again, they were 100% wrong, and the coming blowback one hopes will finally force the Outlaw US Empire to succumb.

It seems Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2 was supposed to act like a chemical Blister Agent, whose goal is to demobilize, debilitate personnel and create havoc in rear echelon areas by overwhelming medical facilities and reducing their productivity by afflicting the workforce. There being no natural immunity to such agents, the only way to avoid becoming afflicted was to already be clad within your NBC gear. (One of the first items discarded by GIs is their gas mask given its bulk and perceived unlikely need for its use.) But Blister Agents are confined to the area wherein their deployed, don't drift very far, and aren't communicable.

I agree with William Gruff that the CIA deployed the Sars-CoV-2 and presented it as a fait accompli to Trump, just as its's done on several other occasions. Pompeo's glee that something was finally being done about China as he boasted is the equivalent of a confession. Being drawn and quartered while still alive and his remains fed to chickens would be a fitting punishment for him.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 17 2020 21:19 utc | 45

The answer to your last question: Deeply entrenched racism and US exceptionalism.

Posted by: Babyl-on | Mar 17 2020 21:20 utc | 46


Get one of these! They work great for what you read. Yes, and reasonable.

Posted by: Taffyboy | Mar 17 2020 21:25 utc | 47

Benjamin @ 43

"....And it's one thing to dismiss Italy because it's mostly very old people dying."

And Australia too.
This begs the questions...
What are the ages of the people dying in other countries?
What are the underlying pre-existing medical conditions of those dying?

Where is the data on the victims?

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 17 2020 21:29 utc | 48

Do not explain by racism what can be explained by incompetence.

When the virus took hold, the European Union first held a meeting of finance ministers. A meeting of health ministers was held a few days later. This shows where priorities lie.

Heavily hit countries in Europe are Italy, Spain and France. These are countries that resisted closing borders, as it would hurt tourism.

We have politicians that are trained to think of everyting in terms of percentages of GDP. And it shows.

Posted by: passerby | Mar 17 2020 21:33 utc | 49

It seems some here dismiss the need to quarantine or lockdown the public, fearing totalitarianism. as a retired health care provider, the more information I read and obtain from communicating with ER physicians.. the crisis is real... and the US fell short in addressing the issue, as b says it may be due to racism, Americans tend to think they are exceptional. We should have immediately quarantined Kirkland washingon and shut down international air travel. Yet we did not, why NOT, certainly not because the government was concerned about being labeled authoritarian ( the majority of us already live in a police state) but because of economic worries. Yes elderly with co morbides are at most risk to die, but other age cohorts are also at risk if they have conditions that effect their immune system. The US population as a whole is unhealthy.. gross obesity , high blood pressure elevated "bad" cholesterol and that is among our children. Evidence is showing those that get ill enough to be but on respirator and have their blood recycled with added o2.. and live probably will develop chronic respiratory problems such as pulmonary fibrosis. Quarantining populations and shutting down business used to a regular thing when ever there was an epidemic but we have gotten so used to having a pill or an injection for everything... it seems people panic and scream totalitarianism! That being said sadly people will profit from the suffering of others.

Posted by: dp | Mar 17 2020 21:37 utc | 50

Bumptious and abrasive Trump has successfully alienated the Chinese. It wasn't enough to start a trade dispute, but to also directly attack Huawei for having bested US development in the 5G arena is a despicable tactic that has finally driven the CCP to expell US journalists. They stood the abuse for as log as they could. We will no longer have first hand reporting of what's actually going on in China. We cannot directly verify claims. It is being said that the Chinese handling of the pandemic has been successful. Would the Party say otherwise? Like Trump, the Party never makes mistakes and makes it all up as it goes along. When the industrial machine gets going again and the spy satellites detect the normal noxious levels of pollutants, that is the time we will know for certain the CCP has been successful. We're still banging around in the dark.

Posted by: jadan | Mar 17 2020 21:37 utc | 51

My friend in Hongkong told me today on the phone that everybody there was and is obliged to wear a face mask, which we dont get here in Europe. Otherwise the economic activities continued and they voluntarily reduced social contacts somewhat. Their actual numbers are 168 total cases and 4 total deaths with a population of 7,3 millions. My own SEIR simulations showed me that given a moderate seasonality and autoimmunization a reduction to 50% in social contacts would be sufficient, not even using facemasks. Sorry b, you contradict your own earlier articles about this topic and please do not forget that we melting down the world economy and creating far more deaths with the coming global social disaster and poverty. Please reconsider your position and read your own previous articles on this topic.

Posted by: SEIR simulator | Mar 17 2020 21:40 utc | 52

Richard Steven Hack | Mar 17 2020 20:57 utc | 34

No, salt water won't "kill" the virus. What it might do is to slow or stop it's development towards the lower part of the lung. In the Saker link it mentions that "Fungi" were found in autopsies in the lowest areas of infested lungs. Sounds horrible.
There is possibly a better preventive medecine but it is made by the Cubans and is forbidden to be exported by "you know who".

Quote; #Cuba has an anti-viral #Heberon (Interferon Alpha 2b) which is being used to successfully treat the #coronavirus - it is a therapeutic not a vaccine - a joint venture in #China is producing an inhalable version, including production for export.

If you read spanish (which I don't) here is a link

As James said on an earlier post - be careful of overdosing with vitamin C. Can have side-effects.

Posted by: Stonebird | Mar 17 2020 21:42 utc | 53

"Racism is the reason that this is happening so late." I would disagree with "racism" yet don't want to get into a row over what specific label the bigotry [I assume we can agree that some form of bigotry is in play] is entitled to. And it's not like I have what I would urge is a final answer. There's a cultural aspect maybe "anti-Han-ism". Anti-Confucian. I suspect it more along the line of bigotry to cover up envy at a more competent response and that the envy is a bit of "race/ethnicity/cultural" shame at not being the "best" when "Euro-American" "used to be" the best. or something along those lines.

Posted by: stevelaudig | Mar 17 2020 21:46 utc | 54

: karlof1 | Mar 17 2020 21:19 utc | 45 The story might be, "geewhiz mr prez, it leaked out and everybody guuna git it - so we gave it to the asiatic enemies an commies soz dey git blamed, we got an ad campaign ok wid dat?"

Posted by: Walter | Mar 17 2020 21:46 utc | 55

Daughters hospital had their gloves, alcohol ect stolen last night. Those items have to be kept locked up now.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Mar 17 2020 21:47 utc | 56

First off props to Russ for maintaining some degree of sensibility here. One problem to consider Russ is that people are dependent on what you accurately describe as an omnicidal economic social order. How to change that is what we need to address as you often point out.

Now I hope that those are calling for lock downs and shutting down the planet are also willing to help those who live paycheck to paycheck as we will witness a depression and the numerous accompanying social ills (suicide, alcoholism, homicides etc...). Otherwise you are just a colossal hypocrite who decidedly DOES NOT care for humanity even as you hyperventilate about saving everyone.

Keep in mind that even small reductions in income across a large number of people can mean a large cumulative loss of life and quality of life.

Whoops no such goodwill- just a lot of hoarding by those who have enough disposable income and storage space.

Now everyone put down the hysteria machine for a second and examine some additional facts that you won't get on your TEEVEE- I'm not talking about globalists or Plan 201 or any of this- I'm talking about severely compromised immune systems caused by primarily horrendous air quality. Once this occurs all sorts of infectious diseases and viruses can and will proliferate.

Now look through the links listed below which speak to the extreme levels of pollution in the Po Valley and Northern China. Then take a look at the study linked below- do we really need a study to draw this obvious conclusion. This study is quite important though it draws the wrong conclusion about the solution- we are not vaccinating our way out of ever mutating viruses- that's not how it works despite the barrage of ads and bought off doctors telling you so.

Now remove one sub-group of elderly with pre-existing conditions and the mortality rates of this so-called pandemic we are seeing go down significantly. Apologies for the morbidity of that.

Now how have they come to have these pre-existing conditions?

You must consider the conditions that have created a perfect environment for viral diseases (Wuhan and most of Northern China epitomize ecological toxic zones as is the case with the Po Valley in Northern Italy) and the accompanying and across the board breakdowns in immune systems. This is what needs to be addressed not schizophrenically being misled from one outrageous panic to the next.

BTW 1.6 million Chinese have been dying per year due to pollution- where has the media hysteria been on this? It is estimated that due to the temporary shut down of the Chinese economy the lives of 4,000 kids under 5 and 73,000 adults over 70 in China. What does that say about the Chinese (and global economy) that lives are "being saved" when it desists yet if that economy doesn't kick back in at some point those stats will change for the worse.

Investigating the impact of influenza on excess mortality in all ages in Italy during recent seasons (2013/14–2016/17 seasons)


In the winter seasons from 2013/14 to 2016/17, an estimated average of 5,290,000 ILI cases occurred in Italy, corresponding to an incidence of 9%.

More than 68,000 deaths attributable to flu epidemics were estimated in the study period.

Italy showed a higher influenza attributable excess mortality compared to other European countries. especially in the elderly.



In recent years, Italy has been registering peaks in death rates, particularly among the elderly during the winter season. Influenza epidemics have been indicated as one of the potential determinants of such an excess. The objective of our study was to estimate the influenza-attributable contribution to excess mortality during the influenza seasons from 2013/14 to 2016/17 in Italy.


We estimated excess deaths of 7,027, 20,259, 15,801 and 24,981 attributable to influenza epidemics in the 2013/14, 2014/15, 2015/16 and 2016/17, respectively, using the Goldstein index. The average annual mortality excess rate per 100,000 ranged from 11.6 to 41.2 with most of the influenza-associated deaths per year registered among the elderly. However children less than 5 years old also reported a relevant influenza attributable excess death rate in the 2014/15 and 2016/17 seasons (1.05/100,000 and 1.54/100,000 respectively).


Over 68,000 deaths were attributable to influenza epidemics in the study period. The observed excess of deaths is not completely unexpected, given the high number of fragile very old subjects living in Italy. In conclusion, the unpredictability of the influenza virus continues to present a major challenge to health professionals and policy makers. Nonetheless, vaccination remains the most effective means for reducing the burden of influenza, and efforts to increase vaccine coverage and the introduction of new vaccine strategies (such as vaccinating healthy children) should be considered to reduce the influenza attributable excess mortality experienced in Italy and in Europe in the last seasons.

Posted by: Allen | Mar 17 2020 21:48 utc | 57

@3 Beibdnn : "France IS taking the virus seriously, better late than never."

Yeah, but the borders, they shall remain open.

Posted by: trint | Mar 17 2020 21:58 utc | 58

Here an study of people hospitalized in Hubei, and they say:

"Results: Of the 1,590 cases, the mean age was 48.9 years. Severe cases accounted for 16.0% of the study population...399 (25.1%) reported having at least one comorbidity"

So of all the people hospitalized in Hubei only 25% had comorbidity or pre-existing conditions and the average age is 48,9 years, so forget about "for the people below 70 is a normal flu"

The real problem is a lot of people unde 70 needs to be help to breath to not die, but if the hospitals are overwhelmed many of them will die for a preventable cause

Even young and sportmen have huge lung problems:


Posted by: DFC | Mar 17 2020 22:03 utc | 59

This situation is going totally off the rails in hyping up fear.

Apparently there has been a TV program on Norwegian NRK TV (the local equivalent of the BBC) where some woman that is said to be well educated and trustable claims there will be 150 000 deaths in Norway alone (keep in mind we have 3 - three- deaths so far).

It is insane to say something like that.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 17 2020 22:04 utc | 60

This is how Euro-weenies deal with the problem.

Government guidance for replacing the handshake to avoid inter-personal transmission of the virus

Posted by: Yonatan | Mar 17 2020 22:10 utc | 61

The plural of anecdotes is not data.

"lockdown" proponents point to the Italian hospital doctor's anecdote.

"skeptics" point to the 20% total rate of infection (with 50% of the infections non-symptomatic) of the quarantined Diamond Princess.

"lockdown" proponents point to death rate numbers in Wuhan and Italy.

"skeptics" point out that the fundamental lack of a good test for infections makes all death rate numbers suspect.


My point is that (if you accept the, IMHO, panic mongering statistics) we have been presented with a version of the ethical thought experiment called the Trolley Problem. If you read the link, this problem comes in a great variety of flavors (e.g., the fat man, the loop variant). Depending on which version of various statistics one buys into, there are similar varieties of the Corona Trolley Problem.

Since my wife was a philosophy major, I have heard this argument for decades. Given the well known "pick a side and fight" outcomes of discussing the (irresolvable) Trolley Problem, I wouldn't be surprised if TPTB are provoking these fights just to sidetrack the few people left who try to use logic and reason.

The people arguing the evidence is conclusive simply have not convinced me. I need real data, not anecdotes. The "coincidence" of the Gates Foundation events "simulation" is a warning flag. Do people really want to give our dysfunctional neoliberal one-party state the power to quarantine, to shut down entire cities, to cancel elections? Do you really want to give the Fed more excuses to throw Trillions more money to the 0.01%? Think it through before you agree to giving the solipsistic rich assholes running this society even more power.

Bottom line for me: show me some bulletproof statistics on people below age 70. Just FYI, I'm over age 70 so my request is not self-serving. Why can't we quarantine only those with a significant risk, instead of everyone? If you respond that we don't know what constitutes "significant", then you support my argument that the stats are not definitive.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 17 2020 22:12 utc | 62

I am with Corbett Report and I remain calm.

The stats do indicate heightened use of precaution but we should be careful not to throw the precautionary principle - as it applies to state and institutional totalitarianism - out of the window.

This is an opportunity for a grand Wall Street theft and I see they have not missed their chance. Nor has the UKUSA in landing military forces in Yemen.

It may take decades to disinfect our legislation and enforcement agencies of the totalitarian ascendency.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Mar 17 2020 22:22 utc | 63

@39 Likklemore

There was no abuse from me.

@43 Benjamin

There is a fundamental ignorance that you're expressing about the pandemic panic. Whatever liberties are absolved through this will be very difficult to get back. Power gained by governments, is power forfeited by the people. There are many many many people like yourself who surrender in the face of hardship. I frequent sites like this because I want to know the truth of matters, not because I want to be pacified with propaganda. We watch and read about Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians, etc., dying for their sovereignty by the millions. It is cowardly and embarrassing to have others who frequent sites like this to surrender so easily their liberties in the face of a flu.

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 17 2020 22:24 utc | 64

Richard Steven Hack @32: "Shelter in place" in San Francisco
Made me laugh.
I imagine that applies doubly to the homeless: stay away from the rest of us.

Posted by: ChasMark | Mar 17 2020 22:28 utc | 65

Kudos to Russ @10

To most of the rest of you - depressing the level of intellectual sterility.

Posted by: DM | Mar 17 2020 22:31 utc | 66

Walter @55--

The war's now moved to the information sphere:

"Beijing has fired back at Washington for restricting Chinese journalists by rescinding the press credentials of US correspondents with the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and Washington Post."

Yet while the Chinese Foreign Ministry was chewing a new hole in Pompeo, The Presidium of the Belt and Road Journalists Network sent this message via Global Times:

"Media serve as an important channel to strengthen communication and enhance understanding for human beings. We have seen that most of the media outlets in the world have played a positive and important role in communicating information, mobilizing the public, and fighting the epidemic, but there are also some media outlets that ignore facts, spread rumors, and even defame and stigmatize other countries, causing adverse effects. In times of crisis, rumors are more terrible than the virus itself. At a critical moment when people of all countries around the world work together to fight the epidemic, we call on member organizations and partners to strengthen unity, keep in close communication, guide the media and journalists to proactively communicate and amplify the objective, rational and scientific voice, and resolutely oppose unconstructive practices such as spreading false information and engaging in fear-mongering, blame-shifting and finger-pointing."

As I wrote a few days ago, China has the Empire over a barrel since it supplies 95% of its pharmaceuticals and medical gear--basic and complex. Then there're the other supply chains. Another aspect of TrumpCo's attack that wasn't thought through at all, proving that entire team is 4-F in the head and would probably place the latrine next to the bivouac's water source. At least Congress has provided signs of being capable of finally doing the right thing after showing its true colors by doing essentially nothing.

Time to start the corned beef and chill the beer.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 17 2020 22:34 utc | 67

I'm writing from the South of France and I'm french.
In our city of Marseille we have an institute with a professor in infectious deseases. Today he published the results of his week long trial on 24 patients. The results are spectacular. After 6 days only a quarter of patients still had a viral load. He gave them chloroquine. And also azythromycine a bacterial antibiotic to fight the secondary effect of pneumonia. Yes, this antibiotic also fights this virus.
The professor is Didier Raoult and he heads the IHU in Marseille. They have a YouTube channel.

Posted by: Stephane | Mar 17 2020 22:40 utc | 68

Here in Britain today. Boris Johnson gave his announcement of further emergency measures, targeting buseness.
On the surface one could say not be for time. Don’t be duped!
This is no light at the end of the tunnel.
He announced a new 333 billion package for buseness !
What he did’my say was that this is Tax payers money.
Taken from the poor given to the rich.
That money would go a long way to help the nhs.
It’s a very old buseness plan. Create a problem (germ warfare) exploit the problem make large profit.
So — — exactly how much money do they stand to gain in saved pensions? No really how much ?
How much will they save ‘eradicating’ the unemployed, the homeless, they have the tec already to run farms using drones. The working class are now obsolete! According to the elite.
Boris just stole you money, you did’nt notice think about that.
And I bet ‘lock step with trump !! amiright !

Posted by: Mark2 | Mar 17 2020 22:43 utc | 69

dp @ 50
"Quarantining populations and shutting down business used to a regular thing when ever there was an epidemic..."

In the 1800's? When people were actually self sufficient?

How about this for a scenario...

If otherwise healthy individuals working in key positions (eg maintenance electricians & fitters, nurses, doctors, mechanics etc.) that work at your local power station, bread factory, water works, gas supplier, hospital, milk factory etc. etc. test positive and are then shunted off to the nearest football stadium and placed in isolation - how long do you it will be before the power goes out, or there is no bread or milk, or the hospital has to shut down because there's not enough nurses or no air conditioning?

I am not talking about the 'dead-weight' academics, HR, marketing types but the workers that actually make a business function.

I really don't think you lot have thought about the ramifications of what is being proposed.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 17 2020 22:44 utc | 70

Incredible that even MOA readers still don't get it.

The delay in action wasn't due to racism, it was due to EMPIRE.

"Decoupling" will now be accelerated as USA and other Western governments blame China.

"Chinese Virus" (the new "Yellow Peril") and the McCarthyist Russiagate are essentially the same. They play on people's fears and are initiated to isolate China and Russia and squash dissent in Western populations.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 17 2020 22:44 utc | 71

bevin @ 36

You say:

It really beggars belief that normally sensible people persist in the nonsense that the current crisis was designed to take away the liberty of Americans.

Then, later, you say:

And yet, we are suddenly asked to believe, it has now become necessary to arrange a pandemic in order to persuade people

I'm not going to let you conflate a deliberately engineered economic crisis with the so-called pandemic.


Any government that has wanted to do that has simply had to ask them: Americans give away liberties, civil rights, legal safeguards with a relish. Then they re-elect the politicians who stole those freedoms. This was well established by the time of the Palmer Raids. In the last century Americans have readily agreed to ban socialists in trade unions, watch while primaries are stolen, allow the President to arrogate the war making power. And anything else a fascist could ever ask for.

Americans may give away liberties, but they always require a boogeyman to make them feel comfortable doing so. The Palmer Raids were justified by anarchist bombings. Many giveaways were justified by the Red Menace (the founding of the CIA, McCarthyism, the Cold War). Nuclear weapons with 15 minute decision loops caused people to let the President have more (and Congress less) war making power. When people found out about some of these power grabs, like the FBI's COINTELPRO, those programs were (at least for a while) ended. Of course, 911 terrorism was the boogeyman for the last 20 years of rights thievery, which make COINTELPRO look like a child's game.

Perhaps after 40 years of neoliberal looting, 20 years of antiterrorism security theatre, and 10 years of zombie economics, the public might just be wary of handing over more power to the same crowd that's been screwing them over.

And yet, we are suddenly asked to believe, it has now become necessary to arrange a pandemic in order to persuade people to sacrifice their rights to cough what they want where they want over whomsoever they might choose; to go to work whether sick or well, because it is their god given right to spread any diseases that they might have acquired.

The "pandemic" doesn't have to have been "arranged", only the propaganda about it. Such as the deliberate re-writing of the Wikipedia entry on the 1918 influenza epidemic to claim only a 2.5% mortality rate. Such as the profound silence in the media on the statistics of the Diamond Princess. Such as the silence on the Gates Foundation practice event last December. Such as the inability/refusal to disentangle normal flu and pneumonia deaths from "suspected" CV deaths.

Notice how the quarantines and market crash all happened overnight due to one speech by the Orange Satan. Just imagine how much insiders could have shorted the market based on that one speech. This is what I refer to when I say "deliberately engineered economic crisis".

There are many people who have been saying for years that the stock market bubble had to collapse. Well, the people running the show have the power to create an event big enough to pop that bubble. Just look at all the money the government is willing to give Wall St, yet again, and tell me that there is no potential upside to the 1% for this event. People on this board constantly float the "let the US crash, then the super-rich will return from their hideouts and buy up everything on the cheap". Why couldn't that actually be what is going on here?

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 17 2020 22:45 utc | 72

To ban or not to ban ...

This framing is itself part of the problem. There may be something in the Western intuition of liberty that has devolved to: "If it isn't banned, well then it must be okay."

The trouble of course with bans is that they are a crude instrument that, in its inflexibility, creates many negative consequences that disciplined, voluntary restraints might have avoided.

It follows then that when bans are announced (in a society with this debased intuition of liberty) it is often too late.

Obviously China enforced many of its decrees and there were some ugly scenes of people being dragged into vans. These people may have only been in the streets due to an exigent circumstance, even where most people and that person under other circumstances would have voluntarily complied.

Taiwan, Singapore and S.Korea (if a bit late) seem to have had success at least as high through disciplined voluntary compliance, instituted *early* -- as voluntary self-quarantine except for necessities could have been if communicated effectively (rather than reassuring everyone that things were under control until ... full lockdown was enforced).

But through a lack of trust, or a failure to understand that freedom is matched by responsibility, and appealing to that from the outset, or some combination of these, even here in Canada, where we have had more time to prepare than most places, and where civil society is already way ahead of the government in providing mutual aid, we are on the verge of lockdown, and still being reassured.

Can people be blamed for not understanding that the absence of a ban on gathering under 500, then 250, then 50 people, does not make 49 "fine"?

All of this is not to say that the West in the grip of global corporatist neoliberalism would have lobbyists and consultants whispering in every politician's ear.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Mar 17 2020 22:45 utc | 73

Norwegian it could very easily be an understatement if a high percentage of people surviving the infection are left more vulnerable to re-infection, other infections, and other medical problems.

We still know too little to be sure about any of that although it does look likely. We don't even know if people gain any significant resistance to the virus or for how long. This lack of knowledge is entirely natural for a new virus but people in general seem to be stuck in a normalcy bias of better known/old viruses and don't understand that it can take months or years to figure out.

The WHO and others have refrained from such speculation because it would be unethical (we simply don't know) and really could create widespread genuine panic which is when people start to actively hurt or kill themselves by their own actions (although some of that is already seen with speculative "folk remedies" and questionable narratives that encourage war).

What we really need right now are serology tests because at least in "the west" the testing is far too haphazard and reactive even though the governments claim to be following the WHO advice.

Except for China the pandemic preparedness has essentially been shown to have been zero with worthless plans giving false comfort which means absolutely nothing learnt from the "Spanish" flu survived after a hundred years D:

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 17 2020 22:50 utc | 74

Posted by: Stephane | Mar 17 2020 22:40 utc | 67

Thank you for that. I has occurred to me that antibiotics might be of help in fending off the disease, from the way it is described, but I have no expertise.

Posted by: Bemildred | Mar 17 2020 22:52 utc | 75

The author and plenty of commenters here are out of their minds. If you think I am going along with abandoning my family and being sent to an ‘old folks’ concentration camp, you are mistaken. People will take enough measures on their own to keep the spread to a level that can handled by the health-care system in the US. You now have to get written permission to leave your house in France or be accosted by a policeman!! Apparently ‘Jupiter’ doesn’t want to waste a good crisis. Much more of this and I’m going to start stockpiling weapons and ammunition, not canned goods.

Posted by: SteveK9 | Mar 17 2020 22:53 utc | 76

I understand how an epidemic can grow. But, in perspective 7,450 people die in the US ... every day.

Posted by: SteveK9 | Mar 17 2020 22:56 utc | 77

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Mar 17 2020 22:58 utc | 78

Jackrabbit @70

And the virus panic also will also mask a bailout of Banks, Boeing, and other favored corporates.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Mar 17 2020 22:59 utc | 79

DFC @ 58

You quote a scientific paper and the scandal-mongering, sensationalist, Murdoch-owned NY Post in the same comment. You know what that does to your credibility.

BTW, I actually looked at the paper, instead of the abstract you quoted. The paper does not break out the patients by age. It only gives means and standard deviations for everything. There is no basis in this paper for your claim that

the average age is 48,9 years, so forget about "for the people below 70 is a normal flu"

All they gave was the average age. They gave no breakout of any of the rates by year, except in one tab where they listed the mean/s.d. of the age of people with one or two comorbidities.

Of the 1,590 cases, 399 (25.1%) reported having at least one comorbidity...Patients with at least one comorbidity were older (mean: 60.8 vs. 44.8 years),

People with co-morbidities had much higher death rates, but they were on average 15 years older. You presented comorbidity and averge together, as if they referred to the same cohort. They don't.

Either you did not read the paper or you don't know how to interpret the statistical data.

Yours is exactly the kind of panic mongering that makes my teeth ache.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 17 2020 23:02 utc | 80

@Sunny Runny Burger 73

So a death rate of 150 thousand persons out of a total population of 5 million (infected or not) in a situation where the country is already in lockdown is realistic? This is crazy.

What we are looking at is a coup d'etat from descendants of the Khmer Rouge. They failed in scaring the population into giving them the power when they said we were all going to die from climate effects that no-one can observe, so now the same people are scaring us to give them the power because they say we are all going to die due to a virus that is claimed to have killed 3 - three - people so far.

I agree we don't know very much, therefore it is extremely irresponsible to tell people on public TV that "you are all going to die". And talking about the Spanish Flu, the number for Norway was ~15 000 over several years, they now claim it will be at least 10 times more in a few months, so clearly they have learned something.

Posted by: Norwegian | Mar 17 2020 23:05 utc | 81

By the way this virus requires BSL-3 labs to study (if in natural cultured form as well as if in animal infections ie.: mice) and BSL-4 labs if aerosolized scientifically (which doesn't seem like an unlikely study).

Many other viruses do too.

Without those labs there will be no vaccines etc. in any responsible manner.

Just saying in case some people feel like coming back to Earth ;)

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 17 2020 23:06 utc | 82

john brewster @ 78

"...Either you did not read the paper or you don't know how to interpret the statistical data."

I think this is done by design - very hard to generate the fear if it is only 80 year olds dying.

Posted by: ted01 | Mar 17 2020 23:11 utc | 83

BSL-4 labs
I believe we only have 8 in the US, and they are very expensive, and cumbersome.
With our current minimal testing ability, things look pretty scary.
Our economy, and late stage capitalism "leaders", make this a disaster.

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Mar 17 2020 23:15 utc | 84

Posted by: SteveK9 | Mar 17 2020 22:56 utc | 76

"I understand how an epidemic can grow. But, in perspective 7,450 people die in the US ... every day."

Except those deaths you cited do not shut down or suspend global trade, local work and economic activities, suspend normal living. In 70 years we are facing a great depression that could last 2-5 years.

Given your glib; How will you survive in your bunker?

The scale of this virus is unimaginable. The virus targets upper respiratory system -viral pneumonia both lungs. Shortage of resources and healthcare personnel. Next door Canada, province of Quebec, there are 300 medical specialists now in self-isolation.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 17 2020 23:18 utc | 85

@ all

When the COVID-19 only affected China, the dominant theory in this comment section was that China was lying about the gravity of the situation - i.e. that the number of dead and infected was many times (some speculated here, with awful sources, on the order of 100x). I remember the crazy conspiracy theories about mass cremation in Wuhan (the evidence was a sattelite photo of a coal plant that always existed).

Coupled with that theory, there was the theory that the COVID-19, for whatever reason (bioweapon or not), affected mainly Asians.

The hidden agenda behind this combined narrative was that, ultimately, China was destined to fail both because it is a socialist country and because it is an Asiatic country. It was both an anti-communist and a white-supremacist narrative. Here, in this very comment section (and I've seen it with my own eyes, no need to question my alleged sources).

Now that the COVID-19 is laying waste and pilling up bodies in the West, the narrative suddenly changed. It became the polar opposite: that the COVID-19 is actually just a flu and that the number of infected and dead is being propped up by the media in order to instill mass hysteria.

But there's a missing piece of the puzzle for this new narrative: who's behind it? When China was the victim, this piece wasn't necessary: they were an inferior race with an inferior system, so commenters here could afford to be materialists. But now, an arch-villain is necessary (because, God forbid, the western people is certainly not guilty!).

So, who's it this time? I've already read a commenter here blaming Wall Street. Other ones are blaming "the governments". Others are blaming the MSM. Some are already blaming the very owner of this blog.

Next time, when accusing someone of being hysterical, look at yourself at the mirror. That's the lesson.


On other news, Boeing asked some banks USD 10 billion for bail out.

Trump has also offered to bailout Boeing. I, among others, called it here when the first accident happened. The USA is becoming very predictable.

The funny thing is that the company absorbed Embraer for free thanks to a far-right president in Brazil who sees the USA as the second Israel. At the time, he propagandized it as the solution for all the country's problems.

Posted by: vk | Mar 17 2020 23:21 utc | 86

"deliberately engineered economic crisis".

Brewster is right. Pension funds will be hit.
Shale oil going bust.
Airlines either going belly up or bailed out adding to or even pinpricking the debt bubble.
Meanwhile, the diversion allows more sanctions if not outright military moves, ie: Socotra, Iraq. Syria.
Eventual Martial law, election postponement, anything to prevent Movements toward change.
The Elites know their time is short.
Flip the opportunity around and use it against them.
Its Time.

*Am in lockdown in Morocco. In 2 days time, no more flights inbound or outbound.
Sit it out and catch up on MoA.
Peace out.

Posted by: Lozion | Mar 17 2020 23:31 utc | 87

@ SharonM 63

I did not accuse you of abusive comments...I merely indicated b does not delete comments without announcing he has [done so] due abusive comments. I went on to give my experience in an example of why your comments disappeared.

Posted by: Likklemore | Mar 17 2020 23:32 utc | 88

Norwegian: first it takes me some time to write comments so I want to point out that I hadn't read your when my last one was posted.

About lockdowns it depends doesn't it? Beyond anything medical:
· Is the lockdown actually functional and possible in practice or do people ignore it or have to ignore it?
· Are there significant unknown populations of people without severe symptoms or who are entirely atypical meaning no symptoms at all? If only sick people are tested then these won't be found. It is well established globally that many have no idea at all that they are or have been infected.
· What percentage of those with proven COVID-19 (disease) have no known transmission chain? If the percentage is large then the unknown population with COVID-19 is also large.
· Are Norwegians more "entitled" and spoilt compared to other nations? If so the lockdown probably doesn't work as well as it could. Do they actually sacrifice any personal comfort in order not only to not become infected but to avoid infecting others? How many are already thinking in this manner and how many are not?
· People in "the west" (and/or their politicians) don't seem to even comprehend that the word quarantine implies absolutely no contact at all. Are you talking about an actual quarantine when you say lockdown?

There is no guarantee COVID-19 won't be worse than the "Spanish" (US) flu. We can hope not, and we can work against it, but we should not take it for granted.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 17 2020 23:33 utc | 89

Duncan Idaho: quick reply before reading all recent comments (apologies if already pointed out by someone) I did say for study though, plenty of labs can do testing which doesn't require such precautions.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Mar 17 2020 23:36 utc | 90

"They failed in scaring the population into giving them the power when they said we were all going to die from climate effects that no-one can observe"

Ah, a climate change denier. Wonderful.

In fact the effects are easily observable, and accelerating. It's really surreal to see people talk about climate change and claim there's no evidence of it when the Antarctic is as warm as Orlando, Florida on some days, and the Arctic Bering Strait has melted so much sea traffic through it is massively increased.

Just because your ignorant ass doesn't see any evidence (mostly because you never bother to look for it) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And by the way, governments are not pushing climate change 'hysteria'. They're doing the exact opposite and consistently downplay the issue. Governments uniformly cannot be bothered to do much of anything meaningful on climate change. Agreements like the Paris Agreement are band-aids at most, and non-binding anyway.

Posted by: Benjamin | Mar 17 2020 23:38 utc | 91

We are now being told that a possible cure has been found in Australia.
This is an example of first world arrogance. The treatment was developed in Thailand and has been practiced there and in Macau with good results. Late in the article it is admitted that patients urged their doctors in Australia to try it based on information gathered on the internet about the treatment. The Australians “discovered” the treatment just like Columbus discovered the Americas.
Work on the treatment was published in Daily Sabah on February 2nd 2020.

Posted by: Othello | Mar 17 2020 23:42 utc | 92

Brian #38

what makes novel corona virus 19 different?

Because a) it's a so-called "novel" virus meaning that humans have no general immunity against, and b) because it has a high case fatality rate (2% or higher) - same as the 1918 flu pandemic.

The CFR is different for different age groups so this complicates the picture.

For those aged 15 to 44, the fatality rate was 0.5%, though it might have been as low as 0.1% or as high as 1.3%. For people 45 to 64, the fatality rate was also 0.5%, with a possible low of 0.2% and a possible high of 1.1%. For those over 64, it was 2.7%, with a low and high estimate of 1.5% and 4.7%.

And new research suggests nCoV is even more infectious than the 1918 flu.

Research published late yesterday in The New England Journal of Medicine offers another estimate of the R-nought (R0) value—a measure of infectiousness—of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) that has sickened more than 8,000 people and suggests the virus is more infectious than the 1918 influenza pandemic virus.

Stay safe!

Posted by: Carciofi | Mar 17 2020 23:48 utc | 93

@james 8

Do you guys have adequate food and household supplies in the grocery stores on the island? Here in Vancouver bulk staples like rice, pasta, canned tuna/soup/beans, pet food, peanut butter, fruit juices etc., stuff like bleach and, of course, toilet paper, are sold out everywhere. Shelves are bare and cleaned out immediately if/when they are restocked. It’s nuts. Panic buying is in full swing and I’ve heard nothing about rationing from the government or any other measures to make sure the idiots among us leave stuff on the shelves for those who can’t get to the stores immediately.

Posted by: Daniel | Mar 17 2020 23:48 utc | 94

In case anyone's interested in another point of view, here's one from Catte Black at the Off-Guardian: Panic Pandemic – Why are people who should know better buying the Covid19 hype?

Posted by: Seamus Padraig | Mar 17 2020 23:49 utc | 95

Another strategy might be to let those not in the risk group develop their own immunity, by going about their lives. They can thereby take themselves out of the category of being open to serving as transmission vectors to those in protected risk groups.
A quick rising proportion of people who have developed in-vivo immunity may actually form the herd immunity that protects others and provides more time to distribute risk-group infections over time and available medical resources.
It is not unlikely the virus has already transited our household in Portland OR with two members in the food service industry. Two did not show any symptoms and two have shown symptoms. Mine took about two days to clear and I am in my fifties and healthy.
It does appear to be a dangerous disease. The hysteria and political aspect of it are very concerning to me and it seems to me that media has mostly acted concertedly to exploit and terrorize a poplulation rather than inform it.
It would not surprise me at all to find it is actually a mild bioweapon and proof-of-concept. If so, whose bioweapon it might be remains an open question in my mind. Perhaps we should quarantine the CIA to protect everbody?

Posted by: Walter | Mar 17 2020 23:50 utc | 96

@84 vk

I don't fall into the categories you listed, but I definitely blame the "owner of this blog" for this article being a call for martial law and addressed to regimes which have invaded, bombed, tortured, crippled, displaced, murdered, and sanctioned to death tens of millions of people just in the last two decades. The strangeness of it is that the host of this site has spent well over a decade disclosing to us what these regimes have been doing. And now he writes that we should accept being confined, being separated from our families, being interrogated about our personal contacts, and surrendering our freedom for humanitarian reasons. This view looks like regime propaganda. You can watch the MSM and see how the U.S. is bombing a country to save them all the time. All the U.S. regime wants is for the citizens of Iran to overthrow their government, otherwise they'll have to bomb it in order to save them.
I thought I could read here about the variety of ways and motives regimes would have to make their citizens submit to martial law. I didn't think I would read a call for martial law from the host;)

Posted by: SharonM | Mar 17 2020 23:51 utc | 97

Peter AU1 | Mar 17 2020 21:47 utc | 56

Just what I came to write about. Same. Daughter works ER as nurse in an American hospital. Her complaints are that Doctors and nurses treating an AIDS patient who has TB. Anyone going into that patient room must wear a mask. And yes people came to the ER claiming to be sick. When no one was looking they snuck down the corridor and grabbed a box of masks and hand sanitizer. A doctor coming out of the patient room caught them.

The problem according to them is first the president said it was just a little flu. Second, the news (MSM)is making hay without facts or even a clue. Lastly Americans are lazy and it takes work to educate one's self about health issues. There is a lot to know. Much to do wrong and a big price to pay for doing the wrong thing.

When Trump said just a little flu he miss lead the majority. This is not the flu. This is a man made infectious virus which is very mutable. Because this is a new virus there is no immunity in the population. When the MSM shows Doctors and nurses all with masks and many Chinese with masks it does not explain that the medical people have to have masks because they are in close contact (in mutual breathing space)with diseased patients. Chinese people wear masks a lot. The news did not tell the public that out and about in public wearing a mask will not prevent COV-19. So there is a run on masks. Who needs to change here?

Today I did the weekly shopping. 50% of all shelves were empty. This is not good if you are a capitalist. Not much better for the consumer as there is very little which will last two weeks left. The next trip will be more of a real adventure.

So where is the federal government or the state government? Where is the schedule of closings? Air flight ends on this date. Bars and restaurants will close on ? Schools close today but students can drive by their school and with out getting out of the car or off their bike get breakfast and lunch on this schedule. Masks are not needed but gloves and safe distance is mandatory.

When government is not up to the task of maintaining the health and welfare of its people.....? Some states have stepped up even under threats from the national government to take charge as best they can. Lack of intelligent action costs the people lives and time without a functioning economy. Another sign of failure of governance is bringing in the military. Taking away the few rights we retain rather than doing what China did and build out more hospital patient space for the coming crush.

When we are in a place where folks are stealing from the hospital during a pandemic you know things have gone wrong. As we shelter in place we would be wise to organize around changes for better governance.

It would be nice to have a lit up gauge in Times square giving us the totals of grand parents, the ones that raised us and taught us what we know and then died gasping for air because our leaders and military want to dominate the world. As the number grows so shall our desire for change.

Posted by: Myopia Longshot | Mar 17 2020 23:53 utc | 98

Being drawn and quartered while still alive and his remains fed to chickens would be a fitting punishment for him.

Posted by: karlof1 | Mar 17 2020 21:19 utc | 45

He should be fed to chicken while still alive. And many other of the US and British Establishments.

Posted by: CarlD | Mar 17 2020 23:56 utc | 99

Seamus Padraig @ 93

I linked to the Catte Black article in the last CV thread @ 204.

Almost zero response. Its like people can't take different POVs into account. They just ignore them.

Posted by: john brewster | Mar 17 2020 23:58 utc | 100

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