Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 19, 2020

Syria - Turkey's Bluff Is Called - Media Opposition Sources Run By British Intelligence

Russia has called Turkey's bluff of a wide ranging attack on Syrian government forces. The Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdogan will now have to find a way out of the Idleb trap he set himself in. His excellent Syria adventure is coming to an end.

Meanwhile we learn that the British military intelligence ran another large dis-information campaign that brought 'Syrian voices' into the 'western' press.

Erdogan continues with his wild rhetoric over Syria.

#ERDOGAN: "#Turkey cannot be confined within the 780,000 km2 border. #Misrata, #Aleppo, #Homs & #Hasaka are outside our actual borders, but they are within our emotional & physical limits, we will confront those who limit our history to only 90yrs."

The Turkish talks with Russia have not gone well. Russia had proposed the following points:

1- 16-km border strip in Idlib under Turkey control
2- Russia controls crossing between Idlib strip and Afrin
3- M4 and M5 opened under joint Russian-Turkish supervision
4- Retreat of observation points to border strip

Some ten of Turkey's observation points are currently surrounded by the Syrian army. If Turkey starts to escalate they will be in a dire situation.


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Turkey rejected the Russian proposal:

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said on Feb. 19 that talks with Russia on the northwestern Syrian region of Idlib were far from meeting Turkey's demands and warned that a military operation there was a "matter of time".

"As with all [previous] operations, we say 'we could suddenly come one night.' In other words, an Idlib operation is a matter of time," Erdoğan said. He was referring to the previous three Turkish operations to northern Syria since 2016.

"We are entering the last days for the [Syrian] regime to stop its hostility in Idlib. We are making our final warnings," he added. “Turkey has made all preparations to carry out its own operation plans in Idlib."

Russia called a Turkish attack the worst case scenario:

The Kremlin spokesman added that "if it is an operation against Syria’s legitimate authorities and armed forces, it will definitely be the worst scenario."

Russia will continue contacts with Turkey in order to prevent the situation in Idlib from escalating further, according to Peskov.

"We are determined to continue to use our working contacts with our Turkish counterparts to prevent the situation in Idlib from escalating further," he said.

Two hours after it published the above the Russian agency TASS also published this:

Two Russian Tupolev Tu-22M3 strategic bombers have performed a scheduled flight over the neutral waters of the Black Sea, Russia’s Defense Ministry said in a statement on Wednesday.

"During the flight, the crews covered a distance of about 4,500 km and stayed in the air for more than five hours," the statement runs.

Fighter jets of Russia’s Southern Military District escorted the bombers during the flight.

The Tu-22M3 can fire long range cruise missiles. The Turkish military will understand that warning.

The Russians are also prodding Erdogan with reports about U.S. weapon deliveries to PKK-Kurds in east Syria:

“The US command in the region is intensively saturating the territory east of the Euphrates river with weapons and ammunition. Since the beginning of 2020, 13 military convoys have arrived from Iraq to Syria, which included over 80 armored vehicles and more than 300 trucks loaded with various types of weapons, ammunition and materiel”, Rear Adm. Oleg Zhuravlev said in a daily briefing.

Reports now speak of more than a million refugees in Idleb even as the pre-war population of Idleb governorate never exceeded 1.5 million. Many of those already fled during the early war either to government held areas or to Turkey and beyond. Where are the million reported now supposed to have come from?

The 'western' media is again practicing tear jerking about these refugees in Idleb. But its reports forget to mention that al-Qaeda rules Idleb and that it prevents the people from crossing the line into Syrian government held areas:

In yet another lengthy, expensive, lavishly illustrated story about Idlib, the NYT once again failed to make any mention of the politics of what is happening in that enclave of northwestern Syria– namely, the fact that well-armed jihadist/takfiri fighters from all around the world have controlled it for the past several years, while Syria’s government forces have been battling to regain control.

In that latest article, as in all of the lengthy, one-sided tearjerkers it has published about Idlib over the past year, the NYT has no actual journalists or photographers on the ground reporting the story. It is wholly reliant instead  on “stories” and footage it gathers from unverifiable sources inside the enclave– sources who notably never include any mention of the jihadi armed groups that control all aspects of life there.

Today we learn that many of these unverifiable sources have been on the British government payroll since at least 2012:

A number of leaked documents seen by Middle East Eye show how the propaganda initiative began in 2012 and gathered pace the following year, shortly after the UK parliament refused to authorise British military action in Syria.

Drawing upon British, American and Canadian funding, UK government contractors set up offices in Istanbul and Amman, where they hired members of the Syrian diaspora, who in turn recruited citizen journalists inside Syria.
...
During 2015, Free Syria, Syrian Identity and Undermine were funded in both British pounds and Canadian dollars, with the equivalent of around £410,000 ($540,000) being spent each month.

These 'sources' which were hired and instructed by the UK government are the ones quoted in 'western' papers. The whole scheme, like the British organized 'White Helmets', was run by military intelligence officers:

Individuals familiar with the project say that around nine companies were invited to bid for the contracts. They included a number of firms established by former British diplomats, intelligence officers and army officers.

Although the contracts were awarded by the UK’s foreign office, they were managed by the country’s Ministry of Defence, and sometimes by military intelligence officers.

These companies set up offices in Amman, Istanbul and, for a period, at Reyhanli in southeast Turkey. From here they would employ Syrians who would in turn recruit citizen journalists inside Syria, who were under the impression that they were working for the media offices of Syrian opposition groups.

The British intelligence also hired journalists to write 'Syrian rebel' propaganda stories. Britain also organized and directed the opposition's spokespersons:

Meanwhile, other leaked documents seen by MEE show that the British government had awarded contracts to communications companies, which selected and trained opposition spokespeople, ran press offices that operated 24 hours a day, and developed opposition social media accounts.

British staff running these offices were told that their Syrian employees were permitted to talk to British journalists – as spokespeople for the Syrian opposition – but only after receiving clearance from officials at the British consulate in Istanbul.

One of the responsibilities of the press offices set up covertly by the British government under the terms of these contracts was to “maintain an effective network of correspondents/stringers inside Syria to report on MAO [moderate armed opposition] activity”.

In this way, the British government was able to exert behind-the-scenes influence over conversations that the UK media was having with individuals who presented themselves as Syrian opposition representatives.

It wasn't just UK media who cited those persons. The whole 'civil opposition movement' was, like the 'White Helmets', a well organized and paid British government front. But when Turkey increased its role in Syria the British dis-information operation began to shut down:

British government enthusiasm for much of the work appears to have begun to wane as it became increasingly clear that the Assad government and its Russian and Iranian allies were winning the civil war, and funding for contracts began to dry up.

Early in 2019, the Free Syrian Police, a British-backed organisation, finally ceased operations following a militant takeover of Idlib province, much to the dismay of civilians and civil society activists.

The Turkish government is also said to have become less tolerant of the propaganda initiatives being co-ordinated from its territory.

One British contractor is understood to have been expelled after the Turkish authorities discovered she had entered the country on a tourist visa.

That Turkey's government became less tolerant to the British operation may also explain the death of the British military intelligence officer who ran the 'White Helmets' propaganda group from his apartment in Istanbul.

 

Posted by b on February 19, 2020 at 15:58 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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@ Aj 81

So much for that Nato connection......

Since you miss the last two days' statements by NATO; a refresher.

NATO told Turkey, don't count on us to invoke Article 5: NATO has no plans to provide military support to Turkey in Idlib — source

"The diplomat said that the death of Turkish troops in Idlib was a tragedy but it had taken place during a unilateral military operation on foreign soil."

Btw, keep hugging that thought "Turkey can landlock Syria if it wants to."
You think Mr. Shoigu and Mr. Putin will sit back as spectators?
Erdo made a huge mistake. Can't keep playing both sides of the fence forever.
I placed a bet on "the little green men" - any time now - sunrise or at sunset, Erdo, the ungrateful turkey, will not be fed.

Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 19 2020 23:53 utc | 101

some funny remarks here today from the newbies.. it is worth it to ignore them.. thanks for the other comments..

here is the post mentioned earlier in the thread..
Israel is taking offensive against Iran in Syria: MoD - typical ignoramus speaking and thinking they can make war on another country in the one next to them..

@ 98 bemildred... i saw that earlier.. i agree with your summation.. johnMK shared the link as well @79..


Posted by: james | Feb 20 2020 0:03 utc | 102

Likklemore 100

Some clown is putting stuff like this on Twitter and the jihadis and their supporters are believing it. A few days ago it was a Russian general that died about a hundred years ago wads killed in Syria. Clowns like that aj are believing it.

"3 Russian generals, including the grandson of Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov, have been killed by the Turkish attacks against the Russian base at Latakia, Syria"
https://twitter.com/DreamMa59706694/status/1230235927680880641

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 0:14 utc | 103

A parady account of the average Erdogan support base. Though very little different from the genuine support base as can be seen @81.

https://twitter.com/Mustafa45161146

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 0:23 utc | 104

@ Peter AU1 103

Thank you.

Erdogan's gamble is noted by Scott Ritter in an RT Op-ed. "Turkey has made its position in Idlib unsustainable both militarily and politically."

-Scott Ritter
is a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer. He served in the Soviet Union as an inspector implementing the INF Treaty, in General Schwarzkopf’s staff during the Gulf War, and from 1991-1998 as a UN weapons inspector.

Turkey faces strategic defeat in Idlib after failing to live up to its commitments on Syria


Under the 2018 Sochi agreement, Turkey was supposed to disarm and disassociate itself from the terrorist organization Hayat Tahrir al-Sham. Its failure to do so has sown the seeds of Turkey’s inevitable defeat in Syria.[.]

By failing to comply with its obligations under the Sochi agreement to disarm and disband HTS units operating inside Idlib province, Turkey opened the door for the current ongoing offensive action by forces belonging to Syria and Russia. By dispatching thousands of Turkish troops into Idlib, Erdogan was hoping neither Russia nor Syria would seek to escalate the fighting in Idlib to include force on force engagements with a NATO member.

When a Russian military delegation, dispatched to the Turkish capital Ankara early last week, was not able to convince their Turkish counterparts to back down, Erdogan doubled down by deploying even more troops and equipment into Idlib, and threatening to forcefully expel the Syrian Army by month’s end if they did not cease their attacks.

The Syrian Army responded by surrounding even more Turkish military outposts, recapturing all of Aleppo from HTS and FSA forces, and driving deeper into HTS-held territory. Erdogan’s bluff had been effectively called. The Turks now find themselves in an impossible situation.[.]

More


Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 20 2020 1:03 utc | 105

james @101: Yeah, agreed about Bennett too, he looks every bit as much over his head as Pompeo. It is like it suddenly dawns on these guys that they are not in the right bar, so they think the right thing to do is talk tough.

Posted by: Bemildred | Feb 20 2020 1:19 utc | 106

In late December, 1990 my limo from Heathrow got tangled up with a protest on Park Lane headed to Hyde Park Corner...the protesters were supposedly Kuwaiti expats and victims of the brutal Saddam Hussein-led invasion of Kuwait. Most were women wearing black hijab with faces covered; many carried signs describing the horrors of the Iraqi invasion, including the "incubator babies" killed by Hussein's army. The protest ground to a halt and our car was caught in the jam on Park Lane. Slowly the hijabs came off, and the white-skinned, disheveled men thus uncovered walked over towards the park, breaking out bottles of beer and lighting up cigarettes. Some relieved themselves behind trees.

Fast-forward almost 30 years and now I am retired from Wall Street law and live in DC for family reasons. How many of these fake performances I have seen orchestrated around here! The Gulenists describing the horrors of Erdogan who pop up from nowhere in the months leading up to the aborted coup; the weeping "victims" of Assad's gas attacks and barrel bombs who suddenly materialize here and make the rounds...with their wives and children in tow, reading prepared texts and refusing to speak otherwise.

Not insubstantial anecdotal evidence leads me to believe that these propaganda operations are broad and deep.

Posted by: skeptic23 | Feb 20 2020 1:27 utc | 107

When Erdogan says:

"#Turkey cannot be confined within the 780,000 km2 border. #Misrata, #Aleppo, #Homs & #Hasaka are outside our actual borders, but they are within our emotional & physical limits, we will confront those who limit our history to only 90yrs."

he sounds like A Hitler lite who said in Mein Kampf:

"Only an adequate large space on this earth assures a nation of freedom of existence … Without consideration of “traditions” and prejudices [the National Socialist movement] must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil … The National Socialist movement must strive to eliminate the disproportion between our population and our area—viewing this latter as a source of food as well as a basis for power politics … We must hold unflinchingly to our aim … to secure for the German people the land and soil to which they are entitled."

But A Hitler whose delusions were a little more extreme than Erdy's wasn't gonna piss about with pre 1914 borders as Erdy is. Later on when the Czech land theft was heating after he had scammed, lied & murdered his way to the Chancellorship in a manner not dissimilar to Erdy, A Hitler said:

"The demand for restoration of the frontiers of 1914 is a political absurdity of such proportions and consequences as to make it seem a crime. Quite aside from the fact that the Reich’s frontiers in 1914 were anything but logical. For in reality they were neither complete in the sense of embracing the people of German nationality nor sensible with regard to geomilitary expediency. They were not the result of a considered political action, but momentary frontiers in a political struggle that was by no means concluded … With equal right and in many cases with more right, some other sample year of German history could be picked out, and the restoration of the conditions at that time declared to be the aim in foreign affairs."

If Hitler wasn't talking about the pre-1914 German borders, what time was he discussing? Bismark had only knocked together the state of Germany from a mob of disparate nepotistic principalities less than a 100 years before. According to W. Shirer in "The Rise & Fall of the Third Reich", A Hitler was talking about a rather short moment in history 600 years before when "the Germans were driving the Slavs back in the East". Of course before very long 'the Slavs' who even back then definitely had the numbers pushed back driving the teutonic tribes back to where they came from.

These disputed regions where one gang of greedies gets the edge on another cultures lowered defenses are the story of human existence. The only way to prevent generational slaughter by one mob getting paid back by the next generation is to draw the proverbial line in the sand and encourage everyone to get over it. The few Turkmen living on the fringes of Syria are like the german speaking people of Sudetenland, they got access in relatively peaceful times, everyone got along fine until some arsehole got greedy.
Reviving that in Syria must be stopped - remember if we go back centuries we find that the Turkmen began much further north east than Syria, but fled west in the face of Genghis Khan.
Locals across the ME allowed them to settle, but typically have been repaid with ingratitude. That is if we believe the likes of Erdy or A Hitler, but judging by Sudetenland, those who got rescued found themselves in a far more oppressive society after rescue than they were before.

Anyway I'm not drawing this parallel for the sake of it, the reason I point in out is because as we all know France & England had decided for domestic political reasons to let A Hitler steal Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia (the voters still remembered Great War and sought to avoid a redux), when if just a little steel had been shown by Chamberlain for england and Blum plus Chautemps for france, when A Hitler first asserted the 'right' to Sudetenland (or the Rhineland before) he would have backed right off if challenged. It was only after the Anglo/French accord went weak at the knees, that the nazis won the confidence of the army, not to mention all the German people.

I wish I had as much faith in Russia's leadership as many here. They look for a compromise, seemingly everytime, when a compromise encourages rather than deters.
The point has been reached in Syria where deterrence is needed because otherwise Erdy will not back down - there is no compromise. Erdy will do as he threatens, but if Syria and Russia stand firm he will back off before casualties become too large because he has yet to have much more than AKP fanbois commit to war.
But there are Russians who rate the s400 deal above a 'small piece of Syria' of that we can be sure.
The Russian leadership's balls are on the line here, just as much as Erdy's, we will know very soon who has the smarts and the balls.

Posted by: A User | Feb 20 2020 1:29 utc | 108

Likklemore #104

The Syrian Army responded by surrounding even more Turkish military outposts, recapturing all of Aleppo from HTS and FSA forces, and driving deeper into HTS-held territory. Erdogan’s bluff had been effectively called. The Turks now find themselves in an impossible situation.[.]

The strategic consideration for Russia is now and was at the beginning. Not one of those jihadis is coming to Russia or to home nation bordering on Russia. They had their taste of it from Chechen jihadis and they will not allow that to happen again if at all possible. Ditto Syria and Iraq.

So when you have an unreliable 'ally' like Erdoghan and his political party of chauvinist moslem brothers, what do you do? You will annihilate every jihadi before they cross the Turkish border on their way home or to be infiltrated to Russia by the west (read Turkey and UKUSA) or even infiltrated to Libya. Humanity and its entire civilian populace needs to see these killers despatched - right where they are.

Their families and descendent children will need to kept well away from madrasa and radical mosques. Children and dependants from these horrific circumstances need careful and long term rehabilitation as they have been to hell and back and nearly all will have lost a husband or father. I cannot see the UKUSA playing any constructive role here and I especially would not leave anyone in Turkey to their fate as that mob of belligerents will just hone them into warriors again.

Regardless of NATO or Israeli sniping and posturing this battle in the west of Syria will end soon in complete victory for Syria and its stalwart allies. Then they can rest until spring is well upon the land. Next is the north and east where pirates from the USA abound.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 20 2020 1:38 utc | 109

...
No matter how cosy it appears between Is and Ru the oligarchy wants to plunder all.
Could be they dream of a rerun of USSR in Afghanistan yet.
...
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 19 2020 21:33 utc | 64

I'm not convinced that Putin is cozy with "Israel."
In Oliver Stone's The Putin Interviews Vlad seems to generally discourage "anti-semitism" against Jews. However, in Episode 2 about 7 minutes in from the beginning, there's a discussion about Nukes ranging from Russia being surrounded by NATO to the Cuban Missile Crisis. Stone asks Vlad's opinion on who, if anyone, will survive a Nuke War. Vlad says "No-one will survive."
Stone then has a little rant about the Neocons and their apparent vyce-like grip on US Foreign Policy, adding "Those guys are really scary" to which Putin responds "I fear them too."

Now, if it's possible to imagine that Neocons & "Israel"/Jews have nothing whatsoever in common then Putin's remark doesn't mean much. But, if one accepts that Neocons are pro-"Israel" anti-Russia psychopaths then Putin's remark means that "Israel"/Jews will find them selves in deep doo-doo with Russia if they're not careful what they say and do in smearing Russian sovereignty and independence and crossing Russia's Foreign Policy red lines.

Trump, imo, is similarly pissed off with "Israel's" influence in AmeriKKKa. Bibi made a HUGE mistake when he strutted into Congress a few years ago to tell HIS Congress Critters what to think, without bothering to get Obama's permission.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 20 2020 1:55 utc | 110

A User
Chechnya is the difference between Chamberlain and current Russian leadership.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 1:56 utc | 111

As another commenter up thread pointed out, only lower level Russian officials are participating in the negotiations with Turkey. Erdogan had his chance and blew it. No use reaching an agreement with somebody who is not agreement capable.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 2:01 utc | 112

A User #107

But there are Russians who rate the s400 deal above a 'small piece of Syria' of that we can be sure.
The Russian leadership's balls are on the line here, just as much as Erdy's, we will know very soon who has the smarts and the balls.

Thank you A User, good thoughts but allow me to challenge that - I doubt Russia could give a rat's arse whether they sell the S400 to Turkey or not. The S400 is as much a poke in the eye to NATO as it is a mundane weapons sale. It called the bluff of the UKUSA always bragging about its 'stealth' weapons. It fractured the western MIC sales push and the Syrian war has utterly changed weapons purchase philosophy in observer nations. Note the USA is going totally over the top when any nation looks sideways at non western arms or technology purchases. Think China domestic airliners or wifi.

There is an immense need to arrest the growth of the muslim brotherhood across the Middle East and the North African landscape. The Russians are likely not even contemplating trading off a 'small piece of Syria' for anything and likely are absolutely averse to any such betrayal of Syria. There is no need to accommodate Turkey or Erdoghan's histrionics as his capitulation (real or virtual) is assured. The EU is sick of him, he is expensive and he pushes illiterate and unskilled refugees their way while keeping the elite trained Syrians in Turkey. Not a good friend for anyone.

I believe it is in the interests of both Russia and EU to let his hapless presidency and its ottoman dreaming run its course. He is a nuisance and now in Libya he is a f'ing nuisance and now handing out MANPADS he is a loser and they will all be careful to watch him lose. They wont need to stage a coup, just a jetliner or two coming down at a Turkish airport would seal his miserable fate.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 20 2020 2:04 utc | 113

Good article B. Thank you.

Posted by: Josh | Feb 20 2020 2:05 utc | 114

Babak Taghvaee (Backup)
@BabakTaghvaee1
#BREAKING: Security forces of #Iran's Islamic Regime including #IRGC Ground Force are now sending their troops and military equipment including these MRAPs to the city of #Qom in-order to establish military curfew over #CoronaVirus outbreak & death of two people in the city!

https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee1/status/1230257877392162818

Posted by: c | Feb 20 2020 2:07 utc | 115

Going by the number of strikes by Russian aircraft, Russian airforce is back to the pace it operated in 2015 2016. This has only happened since Erdogan supplied the jihadis with Manpads. Many strikes 24 7.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 2:19 utc | 116

JR @2 I would've said, "face plant incoming" given Erdogan's psuedo-yojimbo routine. But as you have (rightly) pointed out before about US Democracy Works©, this could be WWF-style theatrics; not only for we the mob, but also for the headchoppers-for-hire (e.g. Turkey makes an actual incursion; Syrian and/or Russian air forces do an extreme warning strike ; Turkey can then tell the "moderate opposition" [with a clean conscience, even] they tried, but...reasons).

And here's an illustration of the US standing in Syria.

Posted by: robjira | Feb 20 2020 2:20 utc | 117

@101 James. Bennett is living proof that Zionists are nowhere near as smart as they think themselves to be. And twice as thuggish as they would like to imagine themselves.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Feb 20 2020 2:25 utc | 118

UNSC

"Crisis in Syria Likely to Turn Catastrophic Unless Global Community Mobilizes to Conflict, Senior United Nations Officials Warn Security Council"
https://www.un.org/press/en/2020/sc14114.doc.htm
"As delegates took the floor, the representative of the United States cited several media headlines describing the current situation as “the end of the world” and “the breaking point”. Noting that a million people have been displaced in the past 90 days, she demanded: “How much longer do we tolerate these headlines?” The Russian Federation’s representative speaks with a straight face about a ceasefire while his country’s warplanes bomb hospitals, she said, adding that the United Nations has outsourced efforts to end the violence to the Astana group — the Russian Federation, Iran and Turkey. It is time the Organization took full charge of that effort since the Astana process has failed, she said, warning that the United States will spare no effort to isolate the regime of President Bashar al-Assad, both diplomatically and economically.

Concurring, the United Kingdom’s representative noted that, while 13 or 14 Council members are willing to act, the Russian Federation uses its veto power to prevent action. She called upon that country to end its support for the Syrian Government while expressing disappointment over the current impasse within the Constitutional Committee.

France’s representative said the Syrian regime is responsible for the current impasse, adding that the intention of its attacks in Idlib is clear — to take the governorate by force, without negotiations, no matter the cost. He called upon the Special Envoy to inform the Council when he can no longer move the Constitutional Committee process forward, emphasizing that France supports efforts to end impunity in Syria.

Germany’s representative described the situation as the biggest humanitarian horror of the twenty-first century. The Astana formula no longer works, he said, echoing the representative of the United States, adding that it is time for the Secretary-General to “step up to the plate”."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 2:39 utc | 119


These 'sources' which were hired and instructed by the UK government are the ones quoted in 'western' papers. The whole scheme, like the British organized 'White Helmets', was run by military intelligence officers


In principle, there is nothing nice or surprisingin this. Mean, this is a common scheme that has long been used by Western governments and/or special services. In particular, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova has long talked about this during regular briefings. This is a "in itself" scheme and operates on the principle of a closed cycle.

The British (or American) authorities/special services under the guise of a "random leak" deliberately throw journalists the information they (authorities/special services) need. Then the journalists create the necessary stories based on this information, along with adding here speculation and propaganda methods (like giant screaming hardcore headlines for the whole page, the use of specific vocabulary ("regime", "GRU agents", "KGB", "bloody tyrant", "annexation", "Russian aggression" etc), adding basic and really important information at the very end of the article, giving the main place to ridiculous conjectures, etc.) to increase the impact per reader/viewer.

As a result, the British (or American) authorities/special services take certain actions or make certain statements based on these very stories from the MSM. I.e., in fact, they (authorities/special services) refer to themselves. MSM journalists (which they are not actually) in this scheme simply act as a layer necessary for the "legalization" of information, giving it a public "status/weight" for use for certain purposes.

We see all your ins and outs, cretins.

Posted by: alaff | Feb 20 2020 2:42 utc | 120

The reality is there is nothing murica or it's vassels can do to materialy alter what is happening now in Syria. All they can do is bluster and bs. Let them rave while the wheels of history are turned by others.

Posted by: Nemo | Feb 20 2020 3:12 utc | 121

This will be the Turk's opposing Erdogan's war on Syria.

https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2020/02/18/turkey-ramps-up-gulen-crackdown-with-nearly-700-arrests/
Turkey's state prosecution ordered the arrest of nearly 700 people today (Tuesday), including military personnel and Justice Department officials, claiming they were part of the network that planned the 2016 coup attempt.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 3:15 utc | 122

re uncle tungsten | Feb 20 2020 2:04 utc | 112
Perhaps I should have written "the economic benefits of continued trade with Turkey" rsther thsn s-400, but as you yourself pointed out there is more to the S-400 deal than money on the line. I have no doubt that s-400 systems in Turkey with Turkey still in Nato will provide great intelligence on some of Nato aircraft's technology, though perhaps that cuts both ways amerika will have an opportunity to test out aspects of the s400 it couldn't before.

The thing is Turkey-Russia trade is economically important to both nations and there is considerable incentive on both sides for not disrupting that.
That ship seems to have sailed as Erdogan is in a spot he cannot easily back out of, and that to me means he has no choice other than to send in the troops to confront the SAA, the only question being is it going to be a huge force capable of overwhelming the SAA, or will it merely be a token group who cannot succeed.
That also asks what Russia's response will be.
IMO comparing Russia's potential reaction to Chechnya is equivalent to attempting to align england's backdown to the Nazis, with the far more robust means england used to quell independence ambitions in the ME (Iraq), Asia (as in India when Gandhi was confronting english colonialism) in the post ww1 period. Chechnya, India & Iraq were existing colonies which neither Russia nor england could possibly afford to release. The occupations are equally immoral to boot.

Russia would prefer a compromise but doing so is very problematic so hopefully they will not, but that doesn't prove they won't.

Posted by: A User | Feb 20 2020 3:34 utc | 123

Hoarsewhisperer #109

I'm not convinced that Putin is cozy with "Israel."


I agree with you. I was saying that he gives an appearance of cosy. I guess he has domestic pressures that necessitate he display 'reasonably nice'. Both he and Assad are extraordinary at turning the other cheek to Israel's missile attacks on Syria. I guess 'only take on enemies when it is absolutely unavoidable' is their joint mantra and surely Assad does not need another enemy right now.

Trump, imo, is similarly pissed off with "Israel's" influence in AmeriKKKa. Bibi made a HUGE mistake when he strutted into Congress a few years ago to tell HIS Congress Critters what to think, without bothering to get Obama's permission.

Sure Bibi was grossly disrespectful in that visit to Congress and ignore Obummer but that is arrogance and racism in the naked flesh. Trump would have admired the trashing of the black president. He loathes Obummer and I think he likely approves Bibi being a disrespectful turd. But this is not cover for Trumps absolute deep collaboration with Israel. I get the image that Trump is 100% WITH anything Israel does to secure and expand its territory.

Consider this extract from A User #107 (refering to Erdoghan)in the context of nationalistic Israel:-


he sounds like A Hitler lite who said in Mein Kampf:

"Only an adequate large space on this earth assures a nation of freedom of existence … Without consideration of “traditions” and prejudices [the National Socialist movement] must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil … The National Socialist movement must strive to eliminate the disproportion between our population and our area—viewing this latter as a source of food as well as a basis for power politics … We must hold unflinchingly to our aim … to secure for the German people the land and soil to which they are entitled."

But A Hitler whose delusions were a little more extreme than Erdy's wasn't gonna piss about with pre 1914 borders as Erdy is. Later on when the Czech land theft was heating after he had scammed, lied & murdered his way to the Chancellorship in a manner not dissimilar to Erdy, A Hitler said:

"The demand for restoration of the frontiers of 1914 is a political absurdity of such proportions and consequences as to make it seem a crime. Quite aside from the fact that the Reich’s frontiers in 1914 were anything but logical. For in reality they were neither complete in the sense of embracing the people of German nationality nor sensible with regard to geomilitary expediency. They were not the result of a considered political action, but momentary frontiers in a political struggle that was by no means concluded … With equal right and in many cases with more right, some other sample year of German history could be picked out, and the restoration of the conditions at that time declared to be the aim in foreign affairs."

Trump is fully in with Bibi.
Putin has to tolerate and humour him.

Putin sees a bigger opportunity (handed to him by IUSA) in Russian Foreign Policy for the next century. The Middle East and North Africa liberated from muslim brotherhood and Arab mongrel mendacity and the jihadist menace. Iraq, Syria, Iran will not forget the Russian support at this critical juncture for some time. Likewise Egypt across to the Atlantic coast of Africa will be grateful if the jihadis are exterminated as they represent and evil menace to their social, economic and political well being.

Trump is fully in with Bibi and his likely successor. Trump is all in the biggest error in US foreign policy for a century or more.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 20 2020 3:41 utc | 124

A User

Chechnya gives an insight into Putin and jihadists. Chechens that had turned to Wahhabism were given amnesty if they returned to Chechen culture and Islam. Those that didn't, plus all off the international jihadis were killed. Same will happen in Syria. Putins stance and personal feeling towards the AQ type jihadis can be seen in the second Chechen war.
Syria has been run the same way. Amnesty for Syrians who will reconcile with the government and destruction of those that side with AQ ISIS.
That was the big part of Putin's deal with Erdo, and that deal was person to person. Erdo had to separate Nusra ect from syrian that would accept Erdogan's control. Instead, he armed the Nusra types and has handed out surface to air weapons. A straight fuck you to Putin.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 3:48 utc | 125

In relation to this "#Misrata, #Aleppo, #Homs & #Hasaka are outside our actual borders, but they are within our emotional & physical limits" It is worth reading this article.

https://www.weeklyblitz.net/news/turkeys-ideological-front/
"Turkey’s latest moves in Libya and the eastern Mediterranean should be viewed in the context of the recent Kuala Lumpur Summit, which announced the emergence of a new ideological bloc to counter Saudi Arabia consisting of Iran, Turkey, Qatar, and Malaysia. Turkey’s new geopolitical strategy is as much ideological as it is “defensive.”"

"That strategy, according to the Anadolu document as cited in Ahval News, hearkens back to the words of Kemal Atatürk, who said in 1921 in the midst of the Battle of Sakarya (one of the deadliest battles in history between Greek and Turkish forces), “There is no defense line, but defense area. This area is the whole of the motherland.”....

"Turkey’s plans for the region, as defined in the Andolu document and cited in Ahval, run as follows:

Turkey’s new defense territory covers on the one end the west and south of the Greek island of Crete and the headquarters of the Turkey-Qatar Combined Joint Force Command overlooking the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf and the Somali Turkish Task Force Command in Mogadishu, the capital of Somalia, on the Indian Ocean coast on the other….Turkey now wants to strengthen its defense line with a new link in Libya."

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 3:55 utc | 126

Wow - i have to say that Russia's proposal sounds very reasonable.

Posted by: paul | Feb 20 2020 3:55 utc | 127

Peter AU1 @124

I see it in the same way.

Years of patient diplomacy, building rapport, and economic incentives failed to dissuade Erdo from protecting the Jihadi head-choppers that Putin sees as a threat to civilization.

That's why they won't talk with Erdo. What is there to talk about when someone refuses to see reason?

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 20 2020 4:23 utc | 128

Apparently Erdy's opposition parties are objecting his defense of jihadists in Idlib. They are calling for him to have dialogue with Assad.


Posted by: linda gentsch | Feb 20 2020 4:40 utc | 129

Article on Turkey opposition party demanding Erdogan have dialogue with Assad over Idlib.
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2020/02/turkey-syria-idlib-opposition-calls-for-dialogue-with-assad.html

Posted by: lgfocus | Feb 20 2020 4:42 utc | 130

Jackrabbit

Will be interesting to see which way Erdogan goes. From what I can make of it the Russian delegation offered him the refugee camps and little else, giving him the responsibility of looking after the so called refugees (I tend to think of the as headchopper supporters and headchopper families).

If he doesn't live up to his rhetoric he is finished domestically and if he tries to follow through on it 'his military will be destroyed. I think he had expected Russia to back down by this stage, though apart from the Chechen jihadis, the earlier shootdown of the Russian plane would still be quite fresh in the minds of the Russian leadership.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 4:47 utc | 131

Hoarsewhisperer #109
I'm not convinced that Putin is cozy with "Israel."
I agree with you. I was saying that he gives an appearance of cosy.
...
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 20 2020 3:41 utc | 123

I was agreeing with you (and coulda/shoulda said so).
I certainly intended no offense in my remarks about Putin.
...
I wasn't trying to offend with my remarks about Trump, either, but I can understand ppl being offended by Trump and Trumpers. I'm not delighted with what he's doing but I didn't expect to be. Nor did I expect his scheme to be predictable or "logical." Draining the Swamp seemed to be an impossible stunt for an Apprentice POTUS to pull off in 8 years; but I've worked with some very clever people in my career(s) and Trump is smarter than any/all of them. And he's still the only person in the Universe with the balls to try to Drain the Swamp, so we're stuck with wishin' n hopin' that he knows what he's doing.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 20 2020 5:03 utc | 132

uncle tungsten @64
Perhaps not NATO but Israel via the Golan and a direct assault on Damascus.
...
Time will tell.

With that last statement you could have saved yourself the speculation preceding it.
Israel is one of the most overrated militaries in the world. Thanks to incessant primitive militaristic pro-Israel propaganda in all mainstream media. Israel is stacked to the hilt with modern US and EU weaponry, with the complements of the US and EU taxpayers. But weaponry alone does not make a good army. It takes more than that, as Hezbollah have aptly demonstrated. Even the vaunted IAF is only getting away with its stunts due to Russian restraint. Syria even now is capable of taking out IAF planes over Lebanon, but restrained by Russia, for whatever reason. The situation with Turkey is similar.

Posted by: gibsf | Feb 20 2020 5:18 utc | 133

karlof1 @ 46

kinda funny seeing your breathless hyping of the SAA juxtaposed with your self-righteous condemnation of any US or EU military action. I thought peaceniks are pacifists in principle.

Posted by: zurt | Feb 20 2020 5:23 utc | 134

re Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 3:48 utc | 124

I don't see it the same way, without Chechnya back in the fold it was always going to be a big ask for President Putin's at that time nascent administration to return Russia's economy to viable following the drunkard Yeltsin's incomprehensible stupidity. There are sufficient doubts about the apartment bombings inside Russia to leave that a question mark.
As you know I don't trust any major politician and believe that Russia's band are not as straightforward as they claim to be. There is no way of proving this one way or the other, so I'm not going to dig over the atrocities of the Chechen invasion & butchery - no one who wasn't there can offer anything useful, so I will stick with time will tell, rather than trying to argue the toss by offering up Chechen nationalist propaganda as a counter to the same from Russia.

We shall see but I'm pessimistic.

Posted by: A User | Feb 20 2020 5:28 utc | 135

I think some sort of a showdown is imminent in Syria between Turkey and Syria-Russia et el. Being a thorn in the side of all regional players has been a big contributor to Erdo's rise to fame. And it would be difficult for him to bluff out of this latest bluff of his.

So Russia better prepare for the worst case scenario and put strategies into place that are able to contain the diplomatic aftermath.

Posted by: A meme | Feb 20 2020 5:38 utc | 136

Hoarsewhisperer @131
And he's still the only person in the Universe with the balls to try to Drain the Swamp, so we're stuck with wishin' n hopin' that he knows what he's doing.

Goodness. How can any reasonable person still support this bully after he had Soleimani murdered? In fact after that murder I began believing all the claims of sexual abuse against him. Trump is just an ignorant bully, acting like he is draining "the swamp". His Shtick is misleading gullible white voters with make believe "draining of the swamp", whilst giving Israel everything it ever wanted at the expense of these same voters.

Posted by: sdr | Feb 20 2020 5:39 utc | 137

@35 I'm saying that even one as jaded as I am amazaed at the propaganda shamelessness of BBC/AJ/NATO/MSM, that Orwell weeps.

Posted by: Hephie | Feb 20 2020 5:49 utc | 138

The more I think about this bluff being called I believe that it is empire behind Erdogan, both of who's bluff has been called.

Isn't Turkey spread a bit thin to be thinking about taking on Russia and boasting of attacks in Syria without the backing of empire?

I read the link that Peter AU1 provided earlier in this thread (thanks Peter) of the UNSC responses and each one in support of empire made no mention of the part of the UN resolution relating to the sovereign restoration of Syria lands. Erdogan's claim to more territory going back centuries is a regional issue that can only be solved regionally after the rest of the nations of the world get out, focus on their own shit and getting along with their neighbors/others.

Application of more empire is not the answer in the ME or the world.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 20 2020 6:03 utc | 139

@105 bemildred / @ 117 yeah, right... this 'Israeli Defense Minister Naftali Bennett' reminds me of erdogan a wee bit... super zealous fanatic who believes everything they say without thinking it thru much.. maybe israel is going to get this jackass as the leader of israel.. he seems zealous and fanatical enough for the gig..

erdogan didn't do what he said he would do... no real surprise.. and i think the west is egging him on as well and maybe he is stupid enough to want to start ww3 in his own backyard... it seems like it.. i can't see russia backing down here... not sure how this is going to work out.. putin has always played a strong hand, no matter the nature of the people he is working with or around..

the way that daily sabah and hurriyet are pitching this to the turkish people goes like this - "Turkey will not hesitate to take care of its security concerns regarding the ongoing crisis in Idlib by itself if other countries in the region fail to abide by the Sochi agreement, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said Wednesday." in other words according to turkish media, erdogan is abiding by the terms of the sochi agreement, but others - read syria and russia - aren't... and as @138 psychohistorian notes from peter au's link of the UNSC - they want to spin it the same way, while claiming a huge humanitarian crisis is underway at present in idlib.. now, i would not be surprised if some serious humanitarian issues are at stake in idlib at the moment involving a number of innocent people, but i think they are also being used by the same terrorist organizations that have had the overt and covert support from the west and turkey here.. at what point does russia, syria and iran say - enough is enough? it looks like that time is now..

now, i have noticed russias amazing ability to deescalate a tense situation and maybe they will diffuse this one here too, but i am thinking they have to deal with erdogan at some point.. either this is one big bluff on the part of agreed upon terms that we are not privy to, or the shit is going to hit the fan soon... i am kinda of the same view as 'a user' - we are going to have to wait and see how this unfolds.. we know the west will continue to scream humanitarian disaster 24-7 and erdogan will be right along side them too... none of these assholes want to acknowledge the humanitarian disaster they have been 100% responsible for trying to rip up syria.. they are not honourable people - all of them who have happily sided with moderate headchoppers and the likes of that..

Posted by: james | Feb 20 2020 7:28 utc | 140

Peter AU1 #124

That was the big part of Putin's deal with Erdo, and that deal was person to person. Erdo had to separate Nusra ect from syrian that would accept Erdogan's control. Instead, he armed the Nusra types and has handed out surface to air weapons. A straight fuck you to Putin.


Thanks for that. Right on, Right on. Arrogance blinded Erdy and has destroyed him. His astute political colleagues in his party at home will be designing the transition as we speak.


gibsf #132

Israel is one of the most overrated militaries in the world. Thanks to incessant primitive militaristic pro-Israel propaganda in all mainstream media. Israel is stacked to the hilt with modern US and EU weaponry, with the complements of the US and EU taxpayers. But weaponry alone does not make a good army. It takes more than that, as Hezbollah have aptly demonstrated. Even the vaunted IAF is only getting away with its stunts due to Russian restraint. Syria even now is capable of taking out IAF planes over Lebanon, but restrained by Russia, for whatever reason. The situation with Turkey is similar.

Thank you and I fully agree that IDF is a flunky pack of wooses. But that doesn't mean they aren't a STUPID flunky pack of wooses. Look at the last time they got snotted in Lebanon by Hezbollah. But right now they have the highest collaborative alignment with a president in the USA who has a team of religious zealots sweating go get em. That situation does not give me confidence that lunacy won't unleash here.

Israel has demonstrated for decades that it has systems of control extending into the highest decision influencers in the UK and USA. Think Iraq in response to 9/11:- stupid lunacy, Afghanistan in response to 9/11:- stupid lunacy, Qassem Suleimani murdered to spite Iran:- stupid lunacy. Israel operates in a world of impunity to any crime against humanity it feels like committing. Show me where that is not so.

Any thing stupid could emerge and when chauvinism and male violence are unleashed and lunacy is not far behind.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 20 2020 7:43 utc | 141

Hoarsewhisperer #131

All good but I reckon he is hog tied to drain that swamp. Good to see him shaft the rats in the ranks at the NSC like Vindman and the goofy Ciaramella. He missed his opportunity when he appointed Sessions and I think Steve Bannon should carry that cross around for the rest of his life.

If any half serious AG had been there fully synchronized to Trump they would have first gone after the Awan family spy/blackmail op under the wing of Debbie Wasserman Schultz. That would have seriously damaged the swamp if not petrified it. Lost opportunity and SAD for the USA. Then ther was the Hillary Secretary of State largest breach of US national Security ever with her unsecured server in her home closet. Not going after that issue allowed the hate Russia, hate Russia, hate Russia frenzy to engulf the President and cripple his first three years. Traitor Sessions and traitor Bannon.

Instead it has taken Guiliani to scrape around the latrines in Ukraine to find the carpetbagging theft of the Bidens, Kerry family filchers. Gross. And then there is Barr..... :(

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 20 2020 7:58 utc | 142

Perhaps having failed to remove Erdogan with a coup, there are those who now attempt to create an untenable situation from which he can not recover?

Posted by: Just a thought | Feb 20 2020 8:01 utc | 143

The thing is Turkey-Russia trade is economically important to both nations.. A User @ 122

because of Allied sanctions against post-great-war Germany, the German people had no recourse but to back a German government that would expand German access to land, resources and manpower <= restating how I understood => Uncle Tungsten @ 123 <=WWII was fought because Germany would not stay down and play dead and because Hitler refused to give the swelling Jewish from Stalinist Russia immigrants "top level access" to German economic and social culture.
-
Israel has .. systems of control extending into the highest decision influencers in the UK and USA. Think Iraq in response to 9/11:- stupid lunacy, Afghanistan in response to 9/11:- stupid lunacy, Qassem Suleimani murdered to spite Iran:- stupid lunacy. Israel operates in a world of impunity to any crime against humanity it feels like committing. by: uncle tungsten @140 <= you have it backward, Israel is the fort in the middle of the oil rich Ottoman empire.. it is not upward from Israel to Washington-NYC and London that influence goes, its from Israel and Washington-NYC that command and controls flows downward to those who run Israel, Israel is the fort protecting the corporate oil and gas interest in the Ottoman oil and gas. .
-
Again taking from, and responding to, the post at UT @123 "any demand to restrict Germany to 1914 borders <<= is as Hitler said, absurd because the 1914 set of borders were borders designed by the allied powers to restrain Germany

new ideological bloc to counter Saudi Arabia consisting of Iran, Turkey, Qatar, and Malaysia. Turkey’s new geopolitical strategy is as much ideological as it is “defensive.”"utc @ 125 <= gee what an understatement.

so we're stuck with wishin' n hopin' that he knows what he's doing. by: Hoarsewhisperer # 131 <= that's been the fate of human existence since the beginning, do nothing for fear that doing something will bring into focus that which everyone knows is needed.

to SDR @ 136 =>Trump and Netanyohu are oil and gas gatekeeper to the Ottoman oil robbery<=they will always stick together when the interest of corporate oil and gas empires are at stake

Posted by: snake | Feb 20 2020 8:38 utc | 144

snake | Feb 20 2020 8:38 utc | 143

" <=WWII was fought because Germany would not stay down and play dead and because Hitler refused to give the swelling Jewish from Stalinist Russia immigrants "top level access" to German economic and social culture.²

Thanks! Nice mini-food for alt-right mini-brains! Much welcome, they are hungry.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 8:54 utc | 145

Peter AU1@102

The Turkish claim about killing three Russian generals and Lavrov's grandson is propaganda. Lavrov's grandson was born in 2010.

Posted by: Krollcehm | Feb 20 2020 9:32 utc | 146

Krollcehm:
"Lavrov's grandson was born in 2010."
You heard it first. Russia is using child-soldiers in Syria!
/sarcasm

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 20 2020 9:44 utc | 147

snake #143

you have it backward, Israel is the fort in the middle of the oil rich Ottoman empire.

If that's an ottoman empire I'll eat my chabbad fedora with a bacon matzah.

it is not upward from Israel to Washington-NYC and London that influence goes, its from Israel and Washington-NYC that command and controls flows downward to those who run Israel, Israel is the fort protecting the corporate oil and gas interest in the Ottoman oil and gas. .

Thanks snake, I like that too. Good the way you discount the bonesaw brigands in one breath. They would be apoplectic reading this. BTW Not much news from those high rise cave dwellers these days. I gather the Houthis cut their tongue out.

Peter AU1 #125 quoting a news item in weeklyblitz.net

new ideological bloc to counter Saudi Arabia consisting of Iran, Turkey, Qatar, and Malaysia.

WTF. now that is an odd collection of twisted bedfellows. Muslim Brotherhood with 'progressive' (hoho) sunni Islam in Malaysia. Sounds kinky and that's three sunni vs Shia Iran. Hmmm Methinks there is more to that story than meets the eye.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 20 2020 9:46 utc | 148

uncle tungsten 147

I think what ties them is they are anti Israel.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 20 2020 10:26 utc | 149

I have to laugh at Naf Bennett's bonkers threat to take on Iran inside Syria. Not only is the average IDF grunt likely to be exposed as a Fluffy Girl's Blouse compared t ok a Syrian Arab Army that has spent years facing off against liver-eating, head-chopping monsters.

But more than that, someone at IDF headquarters is going to take Bennett aside and quietly point out the obvious: if he orders the IDF in the Golan to launch themselves against Damascus then those troops are going to leave one flank exposed to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

He may still give that order, in which case it is odds-on that he'll lose every single one of those soldiers, rolled up like a cheap carpet.

If he follows through on his threats then it could well be the end of the IDF.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Feb 20 2020 10:48 utc | 150

sdr @ 136

I agree with you about Trump. The murder of Soleimani did not come as a surprise to me. I was in favor of Trump when he was running, but it's been long enough now for us to have figured him out. I think the most important clue is that his father was a German Jew, pretending in the interest of Jews to be a Christian. How do we know? Trump's nice elder brother Freddy confessed to his frat brothers at his Jewish fraternity at Lehigh that despite appearances, including the middle name Christ, dad was really a German Jew. And yet Trump senior had been arrested in 1927 in a near-riot as one of seven ostensibly anti-Jewish KKK men in hoods and gowns. Trump's elder brother drank himself to death perhaps because he did not want to take up his legacy. Donald has done just that.

There is one indisputable and telling incident that shows that who we are dealing with is a swamp creature supreme. And that is Trump's behavior around the time of the 9/11 attacks, especially when we remember his campaign promise of 26 February 2016 to release all the secret documents pertaining to 9/11. (Remember that 9/11 was a Jewish operation, Israeli and dual-citizen with a sprinkling of shabbos goys. See bollyn.com or download Zander Fuerza's summary, Masters of Deception.)

On the evening of 9/11, a wiseguy in the New York construction business with an interest in politics called into a local TV station and explained that the anomalous way a light aluminum tube--that an airplane is--pierced an extremely solid steel framework, there had to have been bombs involved.

There was a major problem for the perpetrators of 9/11 with that public analysis. It blew the hijacker story out of the water. Trump was not a perpetrator, understandably, since the operation was conducted on a need-to-know basis. But he was a swamp imsider and he had to be clued in at once—-as he undoubtedly was by one or more of his admittedly close friends from among the known 9/11 criminals including Giuliani and Silverstein.

A day and a half later, Trump was interviewed on-site by a team from the German channel Deutsche Welle. Now he was singing an entirely different song, in tune with the official story.

INTERVIEWER: A lot of people ask how is it possible that a Boeing plane would be able to destroy or two planes would be able to destroy the twin towers because they were constructed to withstand like a 707 attack.

TRUMP: Well, it's tremendous power and tremendous heat. And people were willing to die. And when they're willing to die and when they're willing to become kamikazes of a sense, there's very little you can do about it. I mean the heat and the power actually it is amazing that the initial jolts didn't jar the building as much as people would have thought. But the tremendous amounts of fuel that was dumped on the building and 1600 degrees temperature. I guess that's probably more than anything could take no matter what.

Any builder could of course have told you on 9/11 that if a kerosene fire brought down a steel framed skyscraper that was for the first time in history. So, in hindsight, we can see Trump was waffling like crazy. But he went tbrough with it to do his bit for his fellow swamp creatures.

Trump while not a perpetrator of 9/11, is clearly an accessory after the fact. He has been a swamp creature all along, and he has taken a lot of us for a nasty ride.

Posted by: sarz | Feb 20 2020 11:14 utc | 151

@ Posted by: snake | Feb 20 2020 8:38 utc | 143

because of Allied sanctions against post-great-war Germany, the German people had no recourse but to back a German government that would expand German access to land, resources and manpower <= restating how I understood => Uncle Tungsten @ 123 <=WWII was fought because Germany would not stay down and play dead and because Hitler refused to give the swelling Jewish from Stalinist Russia immigrants "top level access" to German economic and social culture.

That is certainly not true.

The Germans didn't "elect" Hitler to get rid of Soviet Jews. On the popular front, the Germans wanted to get rid of Versailles. On the elite front, Hitler and his oligarch masters wanted to create a German colonialist empire that could mirror the British one in the East.

The USSR was also heavily sanctioned by the old colonialist powers plus the USA by the end of the 1920s. By the mid 1930s, it was essentially completely embargoed - like North Korea is now. The western powers did everything they could to appease Hitler in the 1930s; Chamberlain clearly wanted to bait Hitler to self-destruct with the USSR by giving him a free hand at Czechoslovakia. Poland wanted to restore its old borders of the 18th Century, and thus had very clear interests in destroying the USSR - it was the first nation to do a non-aggression pact with Germany, in 1934. In the UK and France, there was the predominance of the thesis that war=rise of communism, hence the appeasement to the Third Reich to the end. France had a pact with the USSR from 1934, but it was not worth the paper it was written on. The suffocating maneuver of the western powers left Germany and the USSR with no other choice than making a non-aggression pact themselves, in 1939. This pact eliminated Poland - the stumbling block on European stability - and paved the way for WWII as we know it.

Posted by: vk | Feb 20 2020 11:34 utc | 152

The fairytales of Saint Donald and the Swamp are off-topic in this thread, so I want to quell them with a reference to the most recent "week in review" thread, where I posted this little gem from a 2013 Newsweek article about domestic CIA operations in the USA titled The biggest little CIA shop you've never heard of:

JPMorgan Chase's Jamie Dimon and Goldman Sach's Lloyd Blankfein, one former CIA executive recalls, loved to get visitors from Langley.

And the CIA loves them back, not just for their patriotic cooperation with the spy agency, sources say, but for the influence they have on Capitol Hill, where the intelligence budgets are hashed out.

One New York commercial real estate tycoon, who the source asked Newsweek not to name, was "a regular contact." In exchange, he was "kept happy by bringing him down to the Farm" - the CIA's training facility in Virginia - "and letting him shoot off weapons, [and] see some of the things we're doing down there.

I'd say that DJT is obviously a swamp creature, though not from the WASPy ivy league part of it, but from the kosher nostra part.

Posted by: Lurk | Feb 20 2020 12:03 utc | 153

Posted by: vk | Feb 20 2020 11:34 utc | 151
Poland - the stumbling block on European stability

That's precisely the kind of thinking that leaves Poland no choice but ally with USA against the rest of Europe.

Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 12:11 utc | 154

Well that didn't take long. Turkey has apparently launched a massive assault on the Syrian line, with devastating results, in part because the Russians seem to have pulled back immediately. It seems that Russia intends to treat 'ally' Syria the same way it treats 'ally' Iran. I would guess that Russia and Turkey have already made an agreement as to how much of Syria Erdogan will grab.

Posted by: paul | Feb 20 2020 12:28 utc | 155

@ Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 12:11 utc | 153

It was because of Poland a USSR-West alliance didn't happen earlier. Poland had imperialist ambitions and tried to conquer the western territories of the USSR in 1920. It publicly stated in the international arena of the 1930s that it preferred to be conquered by the Germans to making a pact with the USSR.

Sure, you could argue that the UK used Polish anti-Sovietness as a façade to hide its own anti-communist disease (this is true). But even if it was really neutral in relation to the USSR, opening a second front againt the Third Reich would be logistically impossible without passage rights through Polish territory by the Red Army (the other option was Romania, which was still a feudal monarchy and thus almost as anti-Soviet as Poland).

And your argument doesn't make sense: thanks to NATO, Germany and the rest of Western Europe are essentially American colonies.

Posted by: vk | Feb 20 2020 12:30 utc | 156

Meanwhile, the Turkish proxies (as per some reports accompanied by Turkish special forces) started an attack on Neyrab near Saraqeb. Luckily, it is defended by the Tiger forces. Reports of Russian airstrikes on Turkish convoys and other interesting stuff. Waiting for the dust to settle to see more clearly what the real situation is.

Posted by: BG | Feb 20 2020 12:32 utc | 157

Another attack on Latakia base yesterday
Literally giving Russia more rights to claim "Turkey does not implement Astana".
It makes little sense other than:
a) false flag
b) it is completely scripted and more Idlib offensive incoming.

Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 12:36 utc | 158

paul | Feb 20 2020 12:28 utc | 154

Sources?

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 12:38 utc | 159

Y.N.M.S
@ynms79797979
·
4m
The Syrian Arab Army annihilates all attacking forces on the Nairab axis.
And killed dozens of Jabhat al-Nusra and the ...
Neirab is a friend.
-reconciliation office

This could be a source for Paul

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 20 2020 12:55 utc | 160

Paul is one of those psychos who lives in his own head. I admire that in a man.

Posted by: nemo | Feb 20 2020 12:58 utc | 161

Southfront reports:

New Large-Scale Turkish-led Attack Targets Syrian Army In Southern Idlib

Extract:-

"Opposition sources are claiming that most of al-Nayrab was captured by Turkish-backed militants. Meanwhile, pro-government sources are saying that the attack was repelled.

Warplanes of the Syrian Arab Air Force (SyAAF) and the Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) are providing the SAA with close air support. Unverified reports claim that Turkish personnel were killed and that the Turkish Armed Forces lost some equipment.

The attack on al-Nayrab is the biggest Turkish-backed operation against the SAA in Greater Idlib, to this day. Over the last two weeks, several smaller attacks were carried out. All attacks ended with Turkish-backed militants sustaining heavy losses."

Posted by: ADKC | Feb 20 2020 13:09 utc | 162

Yet again, the "Turkish" attack turns out to be a militant attack. Looks a lot like they are being led out to be slaughtered.

Posted by: nemo | Feb 20 2020 13:18 utc | 163

Posted by: vk | Feb 20 2020 12:30 utc | 155

In 1920 Poland tried to regain 18th century territory which were still inhabited by Polish-speaking people at least in some percentage. That should be obvious. If Poland did nothing there were be no Poland in 1918. As for being anti-Russian (anti-German) you would think 130-150 years of occupation and repressions leaves some bad atmosphere.

And your argument doesn't make sense: thanks to NATO, Germany and the rest of Western Europe are essentially American colonies.

You just can't see how USA politics is anti-European since WWI (longer in fact). Stop being blind. USA supported recreation of Poland Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia and others after WWI in order to prevent emergence of significant power in Europe. Keep in mind at the beginning of WWII USA considered allying with Germany and they finally decided to ally with weaker side. Europe was useful for USA in cold war time because it was a counterweight for USSR. Now USA builds similar counterweight in Poland and around, while western Europe is being derailed because it ceased to be useful. Western Europe might be a colony but now it is a colony to be milked and kept from becoming a competitor in nearest future. Essentially, you will be kept happy until you euthanize yourselves and give way to new immigrant population.

That's of course an ambiguous perspective for all USA wannabe allies.

Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 13:20 utc | 164

nemo @162

Yes, I would agree with that.

Turkey cannot really engage its forces with the skies controlled by Russia; Erdogan must know this (he is not stupid despite what some may think). Therefore something else is going on. Turkey is not really "committed" and militants are being subjected to attrition.

Posted by: ADKC | Feb 20 2020 13:28 utc | 165

pppp | Feb 20 2020 13:20 utc | 16

Breaking news:

"Essentially, you will be kept happy until you euthanize yourselves and give way to new immigrant population."

In Hanau/Germany a alt-right no-brainer just acted out this geopolitical "analysis".

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 13:30 utc | 166

I guess what we are seeing is the good ole ATO stuff in Ukraine - suddenly, in the heat of battle, with utomst precision, unknown airplanes and unknown very accurate artillery turn the VSU conglomeration into rubble. The Turks can really expect that.

In a related note - a Russian high military source told Russian media, that the Turkish EW system Koral placed in Syria poses danger to Russian airforces and by implication may be neutralised.

Turkey is playing with fire if it thinks it can take the situation to the brink.

____

Posted by: BG | Feb 20 2020 13:37 utc | 167

@ Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 13:20 utc | 164

Your argument is absurd. Poland didn't exist in 1918. It was reborn because Lenin literally gave the main minorities of the old Russian Empire their sovereignties back.

Poland existed in 1918 because of the USSR. If it depended on the old tsar's will, it would never exist again.

It's amazing the level of intellectual degeneration one has to reach in order to call their liberators their enslavers. Only the feverish disease of anti-communism can explain the acceptance of such levels of imbecilization.

Small nations/kingdoms use one superpower against the other since the ancient times. Armenia did that thousands of years ago. Micro-kingdoms of Europe survived on this alone during the Middle Ages. SE Asian nations do that now. This is certainly not a Polish innovation.

Posted by: vk | Feb 20 2020 13:38 utc | 168

Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 13:30 utc | 166

It's not my problem you have neither brains nor balls (literally) to save yourselves.
Regarding the guy in Hanau I am only interested how many people in his "network" were agents or informants.
Here, the record is one patsy, 3 agents and one informant. Beat it.

Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 13:46 utc | 169

Bemildred @ 99:

Given that American police are bullies -- it's even how they're selected and trained -- it should be no surprise that American grunts are too, and probably also because of selection and training.

Posted by: corvo | Feb 20 2020 13:50 utc | 170

The attack on Nayrab is the result of a specific Russian tactic, (SAA under Russian orders) that was seen around Alleppo when it was held by terrorists.
ie after an "advance" (by SAA capturing the M5) there is a breathing space or "weak spot" of several days. The opposition leaps in to take advantage - in doing so, reveals it's defensive systems and hiding places. Then SAA will advance again using this knowledge.

My opinion; In the present situation the SAA/Russian forces have two possibilities, 1) move towards the crossing Bab Hawa, or 2) take the M4.
The Russians do what they say, and in this case they want to free both the M5 and the M4. If they move to take the M4 then the best way would be from the "Idlib" side. The lie of the land means that any attack from Latakia has to cross a series of mountains, each one a barrier, Not good for armour. By leaving from Saraqeb they should be able to get to Jisr Shoghur by a road more suited to Tank/vehicle movements. This gives a better tactical position to dictate the sequel in the Southern Idlib pocket.
By holding the M5, North-South movement of troops is facilitated, while Erdogan has to use back roads (except for the ring road around Idlib.)
------
Peter AU1 @125

As was told to me, although I am not sure it is in politically correct history books.
This happened when the Ottoman Empire held Riyadh (SArabia) during the 14-18 war. Riyadh could be described as a "seaside town with a 500 mile wide beach between it and the sea". ie Sand all the way.
All the tribesmen did was to poison the wells (except a few carefully hidden ones for their own usage). The Turks then had to retreat, without water. There are no records of any survivors.

I suspect that Erdo sent his troops into Syria without checking on the solidity of his own supply lines.

Posted by: Stonebird | Feb 20 2020 13:53 utc | 171

pppp | Feb 20 2020 13:46 utc | 169

"It's not my problem you have neither brains nor balls (literally) to save yourselves."

Save from what? From "Umvolkung"? ;-)
Or from the alt-right madhouse? Where is QAnon when one needs it?

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 14:04 utc | 172

vk | Feb 20 2020 13:38 utc | 168

Poland didn't exist in 1918. Poland existed in 1918 because of the USSR.
You are contradicting yourself.

Lenin was helped by Prussia to destroy Tsar Russia which he did. He had no saying about Poland. Russia fought Poland until 1921 and tried to invade Poland in 1920 which they failed. They lost militarily so they could grant whatever they wished as long as it was dictated by reality.

Regarding anti-communism, I actually had a chance to taste communism. I did not like it. Most people who glorify communism never actually lived under it.

call their liberators their enslavers.
From what Russia (and Germany and Austro-Hungary) liberated Poland in 1795 ?

PS. I actually like to read what you write but you are sometimes too high on russophilic propaganda to get some things straight. Better do not trust either side.

Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 14:04 utc | 173

Sarz #151

Any builder could of course have told you on 9/11 that if a kerosene fire brought down a steel framed skyscraper that was for the first time in history. So, in hindsight, we can see Trump was waffling like crazy. But he went tbrough with it to do his bit for his fellow swamp creatures.

Duhhh... The kerosene fire weakened the supporting steel frame at the impact level to the point where it could no longer support weight of the floors above. The upper floors collapsed then gravity took over. Simple physics. Kind of like a chair that could easily support the weight a sitting 200 pound person, but if the same person fell on the chair from a 10 foot height it would immediately collapse.

Posted by: Carciofi | Feb 20 2020 14:08 utc | 174

Russian planes bombed and destroyed the Turkish observation post from where today the SAA was bombarded from with tocket artillery and from where Russian Su24s were shot at unsuccesfully today with Manpads.


The Turkish post now.

Escalate to deescalate, a favourite Russian tactic.


______________

Posted by: BG | Feb 20 2020 14:14 utc | 175

Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 14:04 utc | 172

Save from what? From "Umvolkung"? ;-)

Move on, nothing to see here.

Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 14:16 utc | 176

Sorry, off topic, but I can't let what Carciofi @ 174 states, "Duhhh... The kerosene fire weakened the supporting steel frame at the impact level to the point where it could no longer support weight of the floors above. The upper floors collapsed then gravity took over. Simple physics."

Take a look a the website of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth if you want an explanation of "simple physics" that describe the impossibility of the Twin Towers and WTC Building #7 coming down at free fall (meeting no structural resistance) without the use of controlled demolition. There is plenty of additional evidence if you want to look at it.


Posted by: Perimetr | Feb 20 2020 14:27 utc | 177


pppp | Feb 20 2020 14:16 utc | 176

"Move on, nothing to see here."

You are too humble. It is not true: at least alt-right brainf... is visible here. More than nothing but it smells bad.
The good news: the smell can be dissolved using arguments.

"Here, the record is one patsy, 3 agents and one informant. Beat it."
Creating riddles is no substitute for arguments.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 14:30 utc | 178


Erdo's mistake. Those questions on what Russia will do to push back.


Russian air force struck militants that attacked Syrian government forces in Idlib, helped repel assault - defense ministry RT LINK

Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 20 2020 14:35 utc | 179

Peter AU1 @ 119

"As delegates took the floor, the representative of the United States cited several media headlines describing the current situation as “the end of the world” and “the breaking point”. Noting that a million people have been displaced in the past 90 days, she demanded: “How much longer do we tolerate these headlines?

The headlines will keep appearing as long as the State Department keeps lying to the media and wants them to appear. This is an old trick to spread propaganda by Washington that used to work through non-US media. Plant propaganda in a friendly newspaper abroad then get domestic newspapers to "report" on it. Because US newspapers are so craven, they've cut out the foreign newspapers.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Feb 20 2020 14:37 utc | 180

Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 14:30 utc | 178

Western European population is being replaced in slow-mode. One side is lowering childbearing rate, the other side is importing people of different culture who tend to have lots of babies. You can deny but maths is maths and the guys you import are not Asian PhDs.

Google "Brunon Kwiecień" though I doubt there will be much info in English. You can try to google translate wikipedia entry.


Perimetr | Feb 20 2020 14:27 utc | 177
Carciofi | Feb 20 2020 14:08 utc | 174

Have a look how Plasco Building has fallen ad draw your own conclusions.

Posted by: pppp | Feb 20 2020 14:42 utc | 181

Perimetr #177

Sorry to continue the off-topic subject, but as far as I can tell the Architect & Engineers for 9/11 Truth conspiracy site lacks substance:
"Their theories lack support among the relevant professional communities.[6][7][8][9]"


Posted by: Carciofi | Feb 20 2020 14:50 utc | 182

Your criticism lacks substance, Carciofi

Posted by: Perimetr | Feb 20 2020 14:56 utc | 183

"The kerosene fire weakened the supporting steel frame at the impact level to the point where it could..." --Carciofi @174

Nope. The "supporting steel frame" of those buildings was absolutely massive. Those fires would have barely gotten it warm to the touch. No one - not even the dodgy reports from the NIST - suggested that the actual steel columns supporting the building were in any way weakened by the fire. The "collapse-from-fire" argument rather posits that the tabs on the steel frame supporting one of the floors - tabs which are much lighter than the frame itself - simultaneously gave way due to being weakened by the fire and allowed an entire floor to fall all at once onto the one below, which for some reason also gave way and began a progressive "pancaking" of lower floors.

Throughout this process the structural support columns would have remained intact and would have continued to support the structure above the collapsed floors, at least until many floors had detached themselves from the columns and thus removed sufficient lateral bracing of those columns for them to begin to buckle. I am not sure how many floors that would take but am guessing at least half a dozen or more.

This, of course, was somehow repeated in the second building as well.

I've not really studied the videos from the collapse/demolition very much, but what I've seen doesn't really look like that floor-pancaking thing is what happened.

What I do know is that the collapse/demolition was extremely fortuitous for the Zionist landlord, saving him from having to pay for asbestos remediation and getting him past the city's refusal to grant a demolition permit.

It is this clear sky lightning that enriches Jewish landlords with insurance money and removes liability structures from their properties so they can be redeveloped that is proof that the Jews are God's chosen people.

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 20 2020 15:05 utc | 184

Erdogan now claimed to be appealing to the US for Patriots!!!

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-20/turkey-asks-u-s-for-patriot-missiles-to-deter-russia-in-idlib

Seems to me that there is a bit of a problem, timescale. Not only does the US have no Patriot systems to spare, they are needed to protect the far more important SA oil assets, but Turkey has no trained Patriot operators so they would have to be operated by NATO or US troops.

They are presumably trying to protect Turkish operations in Syria, so no Clause 5 appeal to NATO by Turkey allowed.

So, we can definitely see them firing on RuAF planes can't we? WW3 anyone?

This looks like more Erdogan flailing around trying desperately to exit the problem he himself created.

Posted by: JohninMK | Feb 20 2020 15:44 utc | 185

Followed by

Turkish defense ministry have now refuted reports on requesting US Patriot system to deter Russia in Idlib.

So, either Bloomberg got it wrong, someone wanted to stir up the mud or they were told NO?

Posted by: JohninMK | Feb 20 2020 15:55 utc | 186

@ A User | Feb 20 2020 1:29 utc | 108

The Sudetenland had been settled by Germans for hundreds of years. Yeah OK, Hitler was an asshole, but the Sudetenland is a poor example of Hitler's megalomaniac expansionism because it's actually arguable that it belonged in the Reich.

My forebears were Sudeten Germans, and that's exactly what they thought.

There are plenty of unarguable examples of the Nazis being dicks. I wish people would stop treating the Sudetenland as the prime exemplar of that category, because it isn't.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Feb 20 2020 16:15 utc | 187

NYT noticed that something is going on in Syria, besides "humanitarian crisis".

The Syrian government, backed by Russian forces, has accelerated its monthslong offensive to seize control of Idlib, the last province held by the opposition. Facing heavy bombardment of towns and villages, about 900,000 people, mostly women and children, have fled their homes since December...

So we learned that (a) there is fighting, and it "accelerated" (b) to size control of Idlib". Grand total of the political-military background in the story full of "touching scenes". The editor's knife gently cuts undesired parts of verbal pictures:

Over the weekend, half a dozen trucks loaded with donated clothes, blankets and food sent from all over Turkey were lined up in orderly fashion, waiting to enter Syria.

Hm, half a dozen trucks. (a) If the Turks figured that it is enough, may be they are right. (b) why are 6-9 trucks waiting in orderly fashion over the weekend? There has to be some other traffic too, big flat trailers with tanks, trucks with missiles and ammunition... As long weapon convoys have priority, aid trucks have to wait

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 20 2020 16:17 utc | 188

Erdogan thinks he is being clever and can play the American-led bloc vs. the Russian-led bloc, extracting concessions from both sides.

But the Erdogan, the the self-styled playa, is going to get his ass played by the Americans, who are the ones that will profit from a Turkish military escalation against Syria.

Keep the bigger picture mind, what does America want?

It wants to destabilize and weaken Eurasian integration in general--in order to prop up the USA-dominated world order.

Thus, it must sabotage any type of cooperative agreements between Turkey and Russia (and Syria and Iran)--not to mention Turkish engagement with Eurasia in general (like China's New Silk Road/OBOR, Russia's Eurasian Economic Union).

A Turkish conflict against Russia (and Syria) in Idlib is the provocation to advance this American agenda.

As Veritas Semper Vincit succinctly put it:

1/ Turkey and Idlib.
The way I view this:
Erdogan fell into the trap set by US.
US would like nothing more than to destroy Russia-Turkey cooperation:
-S-400
-SouthStream
-nuclear plants
-trade
-Turkey's integration into OBOR
Erdogan will not only destroy alll these , but it will destroy Turkey.

https://twitter.com/semper_vincit/status/1230210361606856704

Posted by: ak74 | Feb 20 2020 16:25 utc | 189

@ Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Feb 20 2020 16:15 utc | 187

Only a minority of the Sudetenland population were German. Even then, nation-States are not determined by ethnicity - by that same criterium, South Tirol should go back to Italy.

Posted by: vk | Feb 20 2020 16:27 utc | 190

(Admittedly OT a bit)

pppp | Feb 20 2020 14:42 utc | 181

No one qestions that Western Europa cannot take these migrants infinetely. It is clear that their integration takes much more efforts in Germany or France than, let us say, to integrate Polish (took 3 generations). Even more tough as long as direct intervention against integration by Islamists is allowed. Must be allowed as long as this Germany has splendid business with that countries. ;-(
Phantasies about serious demographic shifts are just stupid. If a country like Germany is in a partnership with others for illegal regime change and has the favourable position to seem to be a bit aside, just deliver weapons in an indirect way, this country is kind of obliged to absorb some refugees created by such a war. Yes, most likely Merkels actions were against German law in an exceptional moment. The real scandal is whereelse: no anti-war movement in Germany, just hysterical alt-right sh... from people who seemed to have an education in former years. At the end they dropped that and got to be alt-right. Result is for example such an event like in Hanau.
The whole regime change thing has been a catalysator for political decay in the West. Populism and nationalism are enhancing this decay.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 20 2020 16:31 utc | 191

Re: News from JohninMK @185 about Ur-Dog wanting some Patriots.

Worrying about protection from enemy aircraft after you've invaded their country? Was there no effort at planning this invasion at all here? This really is insanity.

Or...

Or this is some really clever multi-dimensional misdirection?

Turkey has no choice. They must leave Syria. Their pet jihadis need to be disposed of. But Ur-Dog needs to dodge the domestic blame for it.

Turkish troops are being killed, which is really bad for Ur-Dog, but do we know that they are real Turkish troops and not just disposable jihadis in donated uniforms? A Turk observation post just got hammered, but do we know if anyone was even in it? I mean, other than entirely disposable jihadis, that is.

The act has to be very convincing. If not convinced that Turkey is trying really hard to hurt Syrians and Russians then the US could pull Turkey's economic heart plug like an unusually obese Baron Harkonnen. If not convinced then domestic fundamentalists could make things tough in Turkey. If not convinced then stateless jihadi dog packs could turn on Turkey.

If this really is an attempt at a serious invasion by Turkey then it is the most poorly planned and incompetently executed invasion in history.
Here's the thing, though: Incompetence is a perfectly acceptable, even honorable, excuse for failure among Americans. If it at least looks like Turkey tried to hurt Syria but just failed through bumbling incompetence, then America will forgive the failure. If the empire forgives then that will be the narrative carried by the corporate mass media. The jihadis, being of subhuman intellect, will swallow whatever the corporate mass media feeds them. Most Turks will buy it too.

I suspect we might hear some grossly exaggerated body counts in the next few days. Thousands of Russians and Syrians killed, and all of that. The Russians might not even loudly contest the claims. If when the dust settles the Turks are back in Turkey and the US is not sanctioning them anew, then I will treat the losses on the part of the Syrians and Russians as nothing more than a polite fiction necessary to get Syria and Turkey back on neighborly terms.

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 20 2020 16:33 utc | 192

@ Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Feb 20 2020 16:15 utc | 187

Only a minority of the Sudetenland population were German. Even then, nation-States are not determined by ethnicity - by that same criterium, South Tirol should go back to Italy.

Posted by: vk | Feb 20 2020 16:27 utc | 190

I recall a statistic that 1/4 of the population in Czechoslovakia were German, which would mean 1/3 in Bohemia and Moravia. This implies that Sudetenland had a German-speaking majority, perhaps lopsided majority.

I do not see a single short rule for those cases.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 20 2020 16:38 utc | 193

William Gruff @ 184 says:

I've not really studied the videos from the collapse/demolition very much, but what I've seen doesn't really look like that floor-pancaking thing is what happened

that's because the floor-pancaking thing didn't happen.

here's a shot of the lobby area on 9/11 or 9/12.

(i love the pretty much undamaged ambulance on the street out front)

do you see 110 floors stacked like pancakes?

even the mainstream media admits, with stupefaction, that the towers turned to dust.

Posted by: john | Feb 20 2020 16:41 utc | 194

do you see 110 floors stacked like pancakes?

even the mainstream media admits, with stupefaction, that the towers turned to dust.

Posted by: john | Feb 20 2020 16:41 utc | 194

I have seen the video of the towers collapse, and it fits "pancaking" scenario. There was a firestorm around 80 floor. 10-20 tons of fuel have the energy of 30-60 tons of explosives (air oxygen instead of oxygenators), enough to crumble concrete sheathing the metal supporting elements and soften the metal. The weight of top 20 floors exceeded the enfeebled strength. The is the start of pancaking.

After equation 2-3 floors engulfed by firestorm, the force impacting the next force is doubled or more. Hence the mass does not stop when it encounters the floors unaffected by the fire. Modeling what happens at the end exceeds introductory course in mechanics, but I guess the mass of rubble moves like liquid and splashes away from the spot where it had fallen.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 20 2020 17:01 utc | 195

After equation -> after squashing , I suspect auto correct :-(

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 20 2020 17:03 utc | 196

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 20 2020 17:01 utc | 195

So how did WT-7 come down ?

Posted by: Tom_LX | Feb 20 2020 17:16 utc | 197

The ruskies have sent two TU22M3 strategic bombers flying during some hours on the Black Sea, just to show Erdogan that Russia has a lot of big planes full of ammo ready to send a deluge of fire on the turkish soldiers if they attack the russian troops in Syria. No mistake the turks will not fight only the russian expeditionary force, they will fight against Mother Russia, which is very close to Turkey

Posted by: DFC | Feb 20 2020 17:32 utc | 198

William Gruff #184

Well one of us has to be wrong. But I can see there is no possibility that neither of us will ever change our position.

Posted by: Carciofi | Feb 20 2020 17:48 utc | 199

Carciofi @199--

can you please answer Tom_LX @197 's question. What made WTC #7 fall down exactly like the other two buildings.

Posted by: arby | Feb 20 2020 18:02 utc | 200

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