Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 25, 2020
Syria – Army Moves To Liberate M4 Highway – Turkish Russian Standoff Continues

The Syrian Arab Army continues its campaign to liberate Idleb governorate. The current main area of operation is in the southeast of the terrorist held area where the SAA attacks in a northern and western direction. The aim of the operation is to bring the M4 highway from Latakia to Aleppo under government control.

Idleb governorate Feb 17 2020

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During the last two days more than 20 towns and villages in the southeast have been liberated. The enemy lines in the area have broken down and the remaining resistance is not strong.

Idleb governorate Feb 25 2020

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A fighter and 'war correspondent' on the 'rebel' side explains why the Syrian army can make such fast progress:

[T]he Russians use their reconnaissance drones very well which makes you unable to move your forces on the frontlines and use your supply routes as you wish. Everything the drone sees moving is getting hit after maximum 2-3 minutes by Russian war planes. I hope and believe that now since the frontlines are more hilly and mountainous areas the Russian and Iranian-backed Assad militants will have more difficulties and face much stronger resistance by the fighting factions.

Planes and drones don't care about mountains.

More fighting is taking place west of Saraqib in the town Nayarb next to the M4 highway. Strong Turkish supported terrorist forces have counterattacked there and over the last week Nayarb has changed hands four times. It is currently considered no man's land.

Nayrab-Saraqib Feb 25 2020

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The Turkish plan is obviously to reconquer Saraqib and to thereby interrupt traffic on the M5 highway which the SAA has only recently liberated and reopened to civilian traffic. But every attack soon got stuck in Nayarb and lots of the new Turkish equipment that was used was destroyed.

Since its invasion of Idleb Turkey equipped its mercenaries and the Hayat Tahrir al Sham (HTS) terrorists with U.S. made M-113 infantry carrier vehicles and with light armored infantry tanks. They also received more anti-tank missiles. The Turkish army is supporting them with artillery. The Turkish army also fired man portable air defense weapons (MANPADs) against Syrian helicopter and Russian warplanes. A Turkish drone which earlier today had entered Syrian airspace was shot down.

Several Turkish convoys which attempted to move further south have been attacked by the Russian airforce. Russia claimed that at least 13 Turkish troops died or were wounded yesterday though Turkey has not issued any news on that.

Today the military airport near Taftanaz north of Saraqib was bombed by Syrian and Russian planes. The airport is not in use but the Turkish army has used it as an artillery and logistic position.

The Russians seem to have returned the airplanes to the contingent in Syria which were previously withdrawn. They are currently back at flying more than 200 missions per day.

Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is still trying to argue with Russia about the Syrian army campaign. He will not reach any new agreement unless he commits to the points Russia proposed:

1- 16-km border strip in Idlib under Turkey control
2- Russia controls crossing between Idlib strip and Afrin
3- M4 and M5 opened under joint Russian-Turkish supervision
4- Retreat of observation points to border strip

An attempt to arrange a March 5 meeting with France, Germany, Turkey and Russia has not yet been accepted by the Russian side. It would likely be useless as Russia has nothing to gain from changing its position.

Today Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov again defended the Russian standpoint in a speech to the United Nations Human Rights Council:

According to him, the international community and the Human Rights Council need to create a barrier against extremists because some forces tend to justify the atrocities of radical and terrorist groups. "Otherwise it is hard to explain their statements about a possible truce with bandits, which are made during discussions of the situation in Idlib," Lavrov pointed out. "It has nothing to do with concerns about human rights, it is a surrender to terrorists, which would encourage them to continue blatantly violating universal conventions and numerous United Nations Security Council resolutions," the Russian top diplomat added.

The U.S. has made clear that it will not support Erdogan's Syria adventure except by words. This was evident last week when the spokesperson of the U.S. anti-ISIS campaign said that Idleb governorate is a "magnet" for terrorist groups who are a "nuisance, a menace and a threat" to the hundreds of thousands of civilians in Syria.

Erdogan's threat to attack with his whole army should Syria not withdraw to the previous lines by March 1 is obviously empty. The Russian airforce would pulverize the Turkish forces before they could reach the front lines.

Erdogan is in a challenging position. If he orders his army to attack in full force he will have to justify the likely very high losses in an unwinnable war. If he retreats from his harsh rhetoric and accepts the Russian points those nationalists who still support him will have further doubts about his leadership.

Comments

murgen23 | Feb 26 2020 14:13 utc <-- Underlying facts can be interpreted and labelled differently. For example: CIA has buddies or official contact officers in Turkish intelligence. Did Grey Wolfs form spontaneously, or they were recruited by military/intelligence? That may be irrelevant, they were probably "approved" and nurtured, seeded with contact people who could order actions convenient to the government. CIA was probably in the loop early on. Now, did CIA had a direct contact people among Grey Wolves, or they had to contact Turks and ask them to contact GWs? Functionally, it is quite similar. Probably GWs were in "assets" category, and not exactly a paper asset.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 26 2020 14:32 utc | 101

re: somebody | Feb 26 2020 14:03 utc
In the past, there were many instances of SAA dropping leaflets with scant reaction. I also got impression (posted satellite photos) that the expansion of IDP camps was well organized. So I thing that it was more than SAA threats. I agree that what you wrote is plausible.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 26 2020 14:40 utc | 102


The Russians seem to have returned the airplanes to the contingent in Syria which were previously withdrawn. They are currently back at flying more than 200 missions per day.

This is a very significant escalation by Russia, imo.
About 40 minutes into Episode 3 of Oliver Stone’s The Putin Interviews, Putin has just had a good chuckle about blowing the crap out of hundreds of Erdo’s oil theft trucks, without warning Erdo, and Stone and Putin are discussing Russia’s 2015 anti-ter’rist campaign in Syria and de-confliction of the airspace. Putin points out that there are many Western air forces in AmeriKKKa’s ‘coaltion’ including Canada and Oz.
Stone exclaims “Sounds like pretty hot air space.” to which Putin replies “Not really. Our pilots make between 70 and 120 airstrikes per day whilst the ‘coalition’ makes between 2 and 5.
“70 to 120 per day? Seven days a week?” asks Stone.
“Yes” replies Putin. “Per day, every day.”
If Russia has upped the ante from 70 – 120 strikes per day in 2015/6 to 200 strikes per day in the End Game, then it’s only a matter of time before Erdo realises that he’s flogging a dead horse.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 26 2020 15:00 utc | 103

Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 26 2020 15:00 utc | 103
Unlike back in 15/16 when the Russians were pretty open about what types of aircraft they had in Syria and numbers of each, this time they seem to have become believers in OPSEC and information is scarce. We don’t even get the third party satellite photos, mind you they would be less informative than last time as there is a long row of HAS now. Just snapshots like when those four Su-24s flew in a couple of weeks ago.
This makes it very difficult to compare now and then as we don’t have a comparison as to whether the sortie rate is up due to increased aircraft utilisation or numbers. This work rate will certainly be giving their airframes and logistic systems a real workout.
Whichever it is the RuAF have certainly learnt some new tricks, which if they do as before, is being spread over as much of their people as possible via short rotations. They did say at the beginning that much of the cost to the MoD would be coming from the training budget.
Whilst the Navy can hardly hide what they are doing their role, apart from as a cargo line, is fairly small, the Russian Army has always been very tight lipped about what they are up to other than in areas like reconciliation and MPs where publicity is good.
All in all this can’t have come as good news for NATO/US, just hope they have taken it onboard.
Meanwhile in other news the RuAF has now received the first of 144 of the new 120km range S-350E systems to add to the 400+ S-400 systems they already have. The Russians believe in missile based IADS more than anyone else on the planet and are putting their money on it.

Posted by: JohninMK | Feb 26 2020 15:34 utc | 104

1. Don’t expect any consistent behavior from USA these days. Trump isn’t into R2P, but he can be (and has been) manipulated by NeoCons. Bad news – political, economic, or epidemic – could lead him to OK a military distraction.
2. Don’t underestimate Turkey’s military and Erdogan’s willingness to use it. No, they couldn’t beat Russia, but they could put some serious hurt on the SAA. Battle would all be in Syria; Russia wouldn’t bomb Turkey (WWIII). SAMs inside Turkey could create a “no-fly” zone for RuAF (how far from the border?); beyond that, I’d guess that RuAF would smash any Turkish forces & supply lines. So, Turkey could probably hold a buffer zone – which might be what Erdogan wants. IMO, he’s partly motivated by Ottoman Grandeur, so expanding Turkish territory could be worth the cost. (This is probably the goal of his negotiations with Russia).
3. People often claim that a war with Iran would doom Trump’s re-election, but I’m skeptical. An invasion would be a disaster, of course – too many body-bags – but bombing Iran could be fairly popular. The MSM wouldn’t object; the Evangelicals would Rejoice; the NeoCons would dance; the Democrats (except Bernie) would waffle. Trump would have to get US forces out of Iraq & Syria first – sitting ducks – but most Americans would welcome that anyway (only the NeoCons would object).

Posted by: elkern | Feb 26 2020 16:12 utc | 105

@57 Peter. Agreed then, just that “system” is nary a military term..
Option A- Erdogan agreed with Russia to create a “killing field” and rid everybody of the Wahabbi hordes.
or
Option B- Escalation and coming clashes may (or not) make various & multi-confessional eschatological predictions unfortunately come true.
I pray for A..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 26 2020 16:14 utc | 106

If Russia has upped the ante from 70 – 120 strikes per day in 2015/6 to 200 strikes per day in the End Game, then it’s only a matter of time before Erdo realises that he’s flogging a dead horse.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 26 2020 15:00 utc | 103
The horse has some life yet. Nairab and three villages were surrendered, jihadi offensive is ca. 2.5 km from M5 and close to Saraqib. Probably it is the last hurrah, Tiger Force and more strikes can be unleashed, jihadis had high losses. But we will have to see.
In Zawiya Mnts, the offensive seem to progress methodically at a good pace. I have misread topographic map, I must admit, it is indeed a flattish plateau and SAA is now in the high region, so they will sweep the plateau and get control of a larger al-Ghab plain and a smaller al-Rouj plain (southern part), thus getting a central section of M4, other sections will also be reached from above. Especially if Arbain Mts to the north ofZawiya are also mostly plateau.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 26 2020 16:16 utc | 107

@53 Peter AU1:
Yes, I’m aware of Russian assets in Syria. The point is that if Turkey tries a major invasion, Russia will have to expend its assets to repel it, including repelling the Turkish Air Force. Turkey has only old F-16’s, but they have 245 of them. How many they can put up at one time is another thing, of course, but Russia’s air assets in theater very likely can’t match those numbers, even with the assist of effective antiaircraft systems.
And even if they can, while they’re doing that, they aren’t bombing the Turkish ground forces.
Turkey has 342 German Leopard II main battle tanks purchased in 2005, not counting the 397 older Leopard I’s from the 1980’s, and the 2,500 or so ancient US Pattons. Not to mention more than 6,000 armored fighting vehicles. They are really short on air defense for their ground units, amazingly so. Add another 2,000 rocket and artillery assets to the tanks ability to deliver high explosives.
As of 2010, according to Wikipedia – and before the recent purge of officers and others for a threatened coup – Turkey had 402,000 active personnel, consisting of 77,000 professionals and 325,000 conscripts. In addition, it is estimated that there were 378,700 reserve personnel and 152,200 paramilitary personnel (Turkish Gendarmerie and Turkish Coast Guard), giving a combined active and reserve strength of around 932,900 personnel.
Granted, most of them will probably stay in Turkey. But I can easily see Erdogan throwing 50,000 or even 100,000 into Idlib, if no where else in Syria, backed by 100 of his recent tanks, 500-1,000 of the old Pattons, a thousand armored fighting vehicles, and 500-1,000 rocket/artillery units. That’s not a small force. It will take some time for any combination of Russian, Syrian and Iranian forces to “pulverize” it.
Yes, he will take casualties. Lots of ’em. But he could likely take and hold Idlib, if nothing else. After all, unless he risks a real coup or all-out war with Russia with Russian attacks inside Turkey, he can quite possibly pull that off, then sit and hold Idlib until Assad and Putin decide it’s better to placate him than start a major conflict with the risk of dragging NATO and the US into it. He can then spin the outcome any way he wants as long as it was not a direct and complete military fiasco.
Bottom line: Relying on Russia’s in theater assets – even with the assist of Syria and Iran – to “pulverize” any serious Turkish invasion into Idlib may not be as easy as it sounds.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Feb 26 2020 17:09 utc | 108

Russia is building, at its expense, a $25 Billion nuclear power plant in Turkey. They recently completed the Turkstream gas pipeline, in addition to the bluestream pipeline currently supplying gas to Turkey. They have sold the premier air defense system in the World, the S400 to Turkey. Millions of Russians spend their vacation money in Turkey. Turkey has large agricultural exports to Russia. They hope to work jointly with Russia on modern military systems. They are willing to throw all of that in the garbage … for Idlib? I can’t imagine there aren’t plenty of people in Russia now who are saying ‘why in the hell were we helping the Turks?’. Erdogan even had the effrontery to ask for Patriot systems from the US! I suppose Russia feels it needs to create as many friends as it can. And, I would guess they might be looking forward to the end of Erdogan’s ‘regime’. I suppose this might even reach the height of absurdity where Turkey uses the S-400 to shoot down Russian planes.

Posted by: SteveK9 | Feb 26 2020 18:31 utc | 109

Richard Steven Hack | Feb 26 2020 17:09 utc | 108
Of course the turkey army could inflict a devastating blow to the russian air bases with barrages after barrages of MRLS, artillery and missiles, but Mother Russia y very close to Turkey, and if the attack to the russian garrison come from inside Turkey, the russians have the right and will obliterate the units that killed their comrades, for sure.
After the first volleys of turks rockets and missiles, that can overwhelm the russian air defenses, the Kalibr’s will start to rain down on the places where the attacks were launched, and also to any turkish garrison inside Syria. In some hours the Tu-95, Tu-22M, Tu-160, subs and destroyers, frigates and coverttes will send volleys after volleys of cruise missiles against turkish targets; then some Iskander M, Toshkas and other platforms will join the retaliation, all of them on hostile military targets (not civilian targets). That can continue up to Mr. Erdogan ask for a truce, but probably Turkey could have some thousands casualties then (not only concussions)
It is better do not poke the Bear so close to it

Posted by: DFC | Feb 26 2020 19:16 utc | 110

The U.S. has made clear that it will not support Erdogan’s Syria adventure except by words. This was evident last week when the spokesperson of the U.S. anti-ISIS campaign said that Idleb governorate is a “magnet” for terrorist groups who are a “nuisance, a menace and a threat” to the hundreds of thousands of civilians in Syria.

Since when is the U.S. concerned about terrorists being a threat to civilians in Syria? They’ve only been supporting them for the past 9 years. Even ISIS, the most they ever did was chase them out of the Kurdish held territories. But when they went up against the government they gave them free reign. There’s even evidence of coordination between the U.S. and ISIS.

Posted by: Steve M | Feb 26 2020 19:32 utc | 111

@ 109 steve.. it is best to be on good terms with others, especially neighbours… how turkey as a whole views this, or russia in general, is hard to know.. erdogan might be willing to mess it all up, but there is also the possibility he is just playing for time and does indeed want to make sure the moderate headchoppers don’t make it back to turkey… what gets said in the news, or quoted on erdogan and the reality might be quite far away from one another… on the other hand, maybe he is a complete idiot..

Posted by: james | Feb 26 2020 20:46 utc | 112

Richard Steven Hack “Bottom line: Relying on Russia’s in theater assets”
I guess that would be a US NATO Turk wet dream, but that’s all it will ever be.
Any attack on Russian forces is an attack on Russia. They are in Syria at the request of the UN recognized government.
Georgia found attacking Russian forces in south Ossetia a big mistake. Turkey would last about as long as Georgia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 26 2020 20:47 utc | 113

Since when is the U.S. concerned about terrorists being a threat to civilians in Syria? They’ve only been supporting them for the past 9 years. Steve M
Scientist discovered a new spiecies: Crocodylus Potomaciensis, overlooked before because of its unusual habits which are part nocturnal, while during daytime it relies on mimicry. Unlike other members of Crocodilia, it can shed tears while in its mimic form, show concerns etc. Feeds on wads of money, inhabits deep swamps of lower Potomac valley.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 26 2020 21:14 utc | 114

@ Jen | Feb 26 2020 5:15 utc | 76
“One possible answer to your (I presume) rhetorical question is that the refugees are the jihadis.”
I am convinced that is so. For some reason these terrorists, imported by the US from around the globe, insist on bringing their families along with them to the war zone. Now those families are paying a severe price along with their assorted husbands and/or fathers.

Posted by: AntiSpin | Feb 26 2020 21:37 utc | 115

Lozion
If I could see a way back for Erdogan, I would go for option A, but domestically, Erdogan burnt the bridges behind him as he moved into Idlib.
Since around 2015, Erdogan policy is very accurately described in the section titled ‘Ideology’ in the Grey Wolves page in wikipedia.
With those policies, his support base will be the nationalist Islamist Turks, the very people he would be sending to Idlib to be killed.
I lean towards Erdogan being blinded by dreams of some sort of islamic Turk Ottoman greatness.
More so with some of the things he has said in speeches recently.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 26 2020 21:59 utc | 116

@116 Peter. I see your point but a distinction must be made between Muslim Brotherhood type Salafism and Wahabbism. The prior is supported by Turkey & Qatar, the second is Saudi financed and is anathema to the MB for various political and dogmatic reasons. Erdogan’s chief Idlib issue is his incapacity to separate HTS and other Wahabbi factions, as per the Astana agreement with Russia, from the pan-Turkic nationalist militias he supports. SteveK9 @108 has is right, there is too much at stake here so a few modern bashi bouzouks (irregulars) will have to be sacrificed along the way to satisfy Astana and isolate Jolani’s troops. Note how KSA and UAE seem to have thrown the towel and given up on the Syrian conflict..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 26 2020 22:37 utc | 117

Lozion “but a distinction must be made between Muslim Brotherhood type Salafism and Wahabbism.”
That is what I thought until after a bit of research a few days ago.
Saudi’s fully supported MB from inception until Morsi came to power in Egypt. From what I cam make of it, they then saw MB as a threat. Very little difference in ideology amongst any of these factions.
My thought is that Saudi Arabia became defacto head of Sunni islam with their sudden vast increase wealth starting in the late seventies. The did control Mecca and Medina but their wealth and the spreading of madrassas gave them a lot of influence throughout the world.
I suspect what we are seeing is Erdogan taking or trying to take control and that includes the various islamist factions in idlib.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 26 2020 22:57 utc | 118

SteveK9 @109
“They hope to work jointly with Russia on modern military systems. They are willing to throw all of that in the garbage … for Idlib?”
Because of the S-400 purchase, Trump has authority to destroy Turkey’s economy via sanctions. There could be blackmail behind Erdogan’s seemingly idiotic moves. I don’t think the actual or potential influx of refugees sufficiently explains Erdogan’s actions.

Posted by: Schmoe | Feb 26 2020 23:32 utc | 119

There are many distinctions between Sunni Muslim, every variety can be more or less “fundamentalist”, i.e. sticking to more rules or less and various other distinctions. For example, Yemeni Sunni (the big majority that is not converted to Wahhabism) make different gestures while praying. Those distinct groups may be friendly to each other or not. I think that Turkish Sunnis most often follow some sufi brotherhoods that may be quite secretive. Gulen is a leader of one of them, Erdogan belongs to another. Muslim Brothers may also be secretive, they are split in factions, at least, in Egypt, their factions are typically not terrorists. But Syrian MB was (is?) quite violent. Yemen has their own MB, there situation is too tangled to decipher. Yemenis do not bother to post in English or care too much what people outside Yemen think — in terms of “arguing their case” and trash like that.
Muslim Brotherhood remains popular among Sunni professionals and business people in many countries, and in monarchies they were typically in peaceful opposition, but in more despotic monarchies like KSA and UAE they were persecuted (republican tendency?).
The landscape of sects is not static, well checked information compiled 20 years does not have to match reality today. Like 20 year old info on German political parties would be severely out of date.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 26 2020 23:48 utc | 120

Schmoe #119
Turkey defied the US and the threat of sanctions to buy the S400. Why would they now bow to the threat of sanctions (assuming that happened), and launch an attack on Syria … and Russia! That makes no sense. I’m afraid that Erdogan’s seemingly idiotic moves are in fact idiotic moves. Unfortunately history is replete with examples of leaders who made idiotic decisions that cost them and their countries greatly.

Posted by: SteveK9 | Feb 27 2020 0:30 utc | 121

Very roughly said, the MB was founded and used as a counter movement to Baathist pan-Arabism (Nasserism, etc).
It has among its pillars the destitution of monarchies, KSA’s chiefly but application of sharia law (as one does not preclude the other). Its an age old rivalry. Also dont forget the Saudi’s are usurpers, they are not Chorfa (descendants of Mohammad). I cant see them support the MB, thats a contradiction..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 27 2020 0:33 utc | 122

Lozion
A piece here in al Jazeera worth a read. I haven’t researched to see how close it is to fact or fiction, but it does cover much of what has occured in the last decades regarding muslim brotherhood al qaeda ect and saudi relationship to them.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/saudi-brotherhood-friends-foes-170623093039202.html
Another thing I’ve read at different times is many of these islamist groups come to veiw Saudi Arabia in a not so good way for its ties to the US (also mentioned in the al Jazeera article). I take it Saudi’s increasing closeness to Israel would only make this worse.I guess this is how US distinguish between good al Qaeda and bad al Qaeda.
I would guess those groups that take a dim veiw of Saudi ties to US and Israel might start looking towards Erdogan. Then there’s wahhabi Qatar, backing muslim brotherhood Erdogan and ties to and good relations with Iran to add into the mix.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 1:31 utc | 123

SteveK9
“Turkey defied the US and the threat of sanctions to buy the S400. Why would they now bow to the threat of sanctions (assuming that happened), and launch an attack on Syria … and Russia! That makes no sense.”
This time could be different because this is much higher stakes. When Turkey got the S-400 . . . big deal. The US didn’t like it, but there was no real geopolitical significance. Getting Erdogan to: 1) humliate Putin; 2) prolong the Syrian war; and 3) inflict major damage on the SAA would be priceless for the psychopaths running our foreign policy. That said, this could result in Erdogan being overthrown, so it would be high stakes to force him to go to war with Syria and perhaps Russia.

Posted by: Schmoe | Feb 27 2020 2:14 utc | 124

Peter AU1
My understanding is the same.
Saudis supported MB at inception and for many years after. Probably a controlled opposition tool to channel those seeking Western-like democracy into a religious paradigm for manipulation.
When did Saudis stop their support of MB? I think maybe after they got their own Jihadis (al Queda) in the 1980’s.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2020 2:35 utc | 125

Jackrabbit
From what I have read, it was with Morsi and the Arab spring that the Saudis started to see muslim brotherhood as a threat rather than a tool or ally.
Until very recent I had thought differences were religious, but it seem differences through the Sunni islamist world that believe in sharia law are mostly political. Popular leader vs hereditary monarchs, leadership of the sunni world ect. Also in this is the Saudis moving closer to the US and Israel

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 3:10 utc | 126

Yeah, probably Morsi and Arab Spring. My speculation is unfounded.
Also should have said “modern life” instead of democracy. MB seems to have been influenced by socialism too.
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2020 3:16 utc | 127

New Erdogan bluster – still threatening action at end of month
‘We’re the hosts there’: Erdogan says Turkey won’t pull back from Syria’s sovereign territory, gives Assad ultimatum to retreat

“We will not step back in Idlib. We are not the guests in this realm, we are the hosts,” Recep Tayyip Erdogan told a meeting of his AK party on Wednesday. Vowing to bring “the regime’s attacks” to an end, Erdogan said Ankara is giving Damascus time to pull forces back from Turkish observation posts, but that time “is expiring at the end of the month.”

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2020 3:18 utc | 128

Jackrabbit
I’ve heard it termed as islamic democracy by some of the believers (headchopper types).
I believe Erdogan has made some mentions.
I have been trying to find working links to a couple of speeches made by Erdogan back in 2004.
‘Turkey: Democracy in the Middle East, pluralism in Europe: Turkish view’ and ‘Speech: Turkey: Conservative democracy and the globalisation of freedom’
https://www.europeansources.info/corporate-author/turkey-prime-minister/
His views, at least publicly, have become more islamist since then.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 4:30 utc | 129

Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 4:30 utc | 129
Now this in

Huerriyet
: “Erdoğan says Turkey will solve issue of using airspace in Idlib”
What the guy told in 2004 is obsolete now. He is now more nationalistic than islamistic. The behaviour of Morsi in Egypt showed that for the MB democracy is a tool to obtain power. Once got the next step is to make it irreversible. Democraccy is a sinful error forced to the believers by Jews, Freemasons etc.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 27 2020 6:07 utc | 130

Hausmeister
My impression is that islamist democracy does not count votes of non believers. AK’s also have a lot of voting power.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 7:51 utc | 131

Hausmeister,
Erdoğan is and always has been an Islamic (MB) extremist. His nationalist tendancies result from his dependence on the nationalist MHP to maintain power.

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Feb 27 2020 8:07 utc | 132

I’m extremely appreciative of the past few days ‘conversation’ on this thread.
Thank You all serious contributors.
I came across a few days ago, the following and it does, alot to explain who this erDOGGY really is:
*Ariel Sharon and Erdogan Meet*
“Erdogan taking the Israel version of Zionist declaration of faith. Repeating in front of mass murderer Ariel Sharon. One day Shahadah next day swearing oath and allegiance to Zionism. Reminds me of the Nagina movies I used to binge on as a kid lol”.
https://twitter.com/Praecursator007/status/1231212343893385218
As I’ve written earlier, a picture is worth 1000 words, applies here as well.
As well as *Occam’s Razor*.
Think about it.
The answer is obvious.
2 lowlifes and what about the *Dönmeh*.
Regards X-
addendum:
“The Dönmeh were a group of Sabbatean crypto-Jews in the Ottoman Empire who converted publicly to Islam, but retained their beliefs in secret. The movement was centered in Thessaloniki.”
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffcm&q=D%C3%B6nmeh&ia=web

Posted by: Veritas X- | Feb 27 2020 8:28 utc | 133

Veritas X-
Your comment on the Sasson’s in the other thread was very useful. I have previously looked into old London money and what is considered old US money. Rothschilds I considered mercenary money, mainly based in Europe.
With Sasson, another category, mercenary jewish money or comes into it (prior to the establishment of israel, jews had no homeland).
Another piece to the puzzle.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 8:46 utc | 134

@Sad Canuck | Feb 25 2020 21:54 utc | 40
Without Putin’s agreement I don’t see the US, NATO or the Merkel/ Macron avenues that Erdogan is investigating as getting anywhere. So, yes, you may be right, he may later claim the deal to be a triumph of his diplomacy – maybe that’s why there is no mention of it in the Turkish media at the moment.
@Dilara | Feb 25 2020 23:15 utc | 54 / @SI| Feb 25 2020 20:15 utc | 28
It is an interesting point. I’ve seen reference to soldiers in the coup being sent to the Idlib front line , there is even mention here that the Grey Wolves are being sent. I don’t think either of these are in anyway accurate. The truth is probably far harsher – Erdogan sees these soldiers as expendable; heroes in Turkey’s righteous war. Let’s not forget that scores of soldiers have been killed fighting ‘Kurdish Terrorists’ within Turkey over the last few years and there is no public outcry – at least none that gains any traction. Claiming them to be ‘heroic martyrs’ feeds nationalist sentiment in Turkey and that binds the people behind Erdogan.
Posted by: redrooster | Feb 26 2020 11:00 utc | 85
TUrkish soldiers have been ‘dropping like flies’ for years now – daily counts of soldiers killed and terrorists eliminated have long been part of the news.
Blue Dotterel | Feb 27 2020 8:07 utc | 132
Spot on. His strategy to gain and retain power in Turkey has been clear and mercilessly executed. While regionally Erdogan exerts the controil he requires to progress., this is not possible abroad and he flails pathetically.

Posted by: Egor68500 | Feb 27 2020 10:17 utc | 135

LSaraqib now under terrorist hands again looks pretty much confirmed. Videos out there showing them walking round the center of town and under the M4/5 junction bridges. Lots of armour and ammo etc captured. SAA running to fight another day by the look of it.
Also main push was a night attack last night so definite upgrade in sensors going on, one area the Turks could definitely help in. I suggest that its going to be much harder to get it back than it was to get it in the first place now the terrorists are not on the back foot. This is now a big problem for the SAA. Mind you this success probably takes a bit of pressure off Erdogan.
Also Putin rep saying no meeting with Erdogan/France/Germany scheduled for March 5th.

Posted by: JohninMK | Feb 27 2020 10:18 utc | 136

This situation in Idlib has long been anticipated and Russia, Iran and Syria have no doubt planned or several Turiish responses – there is no love lost between them let’s face it. Russia’s handling is as ever with a clear objective but also with understanding to Turkey;’s position. This means that Turkey really has little to play with. No matter what diplomatic theatre Erdogan loudly engages in it is unlikely to get him anywhere. He will probably repackage the Russia deal as the victory of his diplomacy if it is not taken off the table! What the situation has exposed is that Erdogan is opportunist not strategist when it comes to territory outside his immediate control. So we see a distinct difference in his political path doesmtically and his gambits internationally.
Also, let’s not forget that the threat to Erdogan’s position is not coming from Turkey’s involvement in Syria because it is sold as a nationalistic and heroic fight against forces that seek to partition Turkey. No politician can argue against that in the face of what is happening. This is also how Erodagn is able to justify the deaths of Turkish soldiers as heroice martyrs. In the last few years there have been weekly counts of martyrs killed fighting “Kurdish terrorists” in Turkey, now the counts are “heroic martyrs” in Syria. The people of Turkey are used to it and not one politician has successly criticised Erdogan about this. As for military equipment being expended so easily, this could simply be a means to line allies pockets with significant purchase orders to either allow him leverage at home or abroad. If he’s smart he will place replacement orders locally and use the leverage to shore up support.
Internal threats come from the splits growing in the AK Party mostly as a result of economic troubles. These will really start to take for should Babacan at last form his party. But these threats are primarily against Albayrak, not Erdogan and there is no talk yet of Babacan and those who wnat to see a return to better western ties not supporting Erdogan as President. Davutoglu is a no go in my opinion.

Posted by: Egor68500 | Feb 27 2020 10:20 utc | 137

JohninMK
Saraqib is not strategic point in this fight. Erdo and the headchoppers have expended a great deal of manpower to gain a propaganda point.
As I mentioned in and earlier comment, there will be no civilians in ground retaken by the headchoppers. TOS-1’s and assorted kinetic stuff will do their job. It has happened time and again.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 10:46 utc | 138

Posted by: paul | Feb 26 2020 13:59 utc | 92
Cassad suggests that the Nairab battle is mainly for show
It looks more and more like that.
Look, we have regained Saraqib, forget those mountains.

Posted by: pppp | Feb 27 2020 12:17 utc | 139

Egor68500 | Feb 27 2020 10:17 utc | 135
Well the nature of this war is different. Erdogan is practically sending turkish soldiers to Idlib to die protecting al-qaida terrorists. I’m sure it is a far less popular war for the public in Turkey then lets say fighting Kurds. Also 19 confirmed dead turkish soldiers is nowhere near what I consider “dropping like flies”. I’m thinking more in the range of thousands or eventually in time tens of thousands.
JohninMK | Feb 27 2020 10:18 utc | 136
Spot on. I’m also wondering how effective, if at all, was the bombing by the RuAF to slow down this night offensive. That being said controlling the mountainous area would be more advantageous in the long run giving the Syrian artillery more range bombarding the occupied flat ground.

Posted by: redrooster | Feb 27 2020 14:16 utc | 140

If Erdogan decides to fight for Idlib, SAA+Russia will fight back.
What happens to the Russian MPs and Syrian troops on the NE border?
It seems that they would easily be taken prisoner. Effectively hostages?
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2020 14:17 utc | 141

The Turkmen and their Jihadist mates have now re-interdicted the M5 highway. This is exactly opposite to the Sochi agreements between Turkey and the Russian Federation. Putin won’t be happy with Erdogan, and that will have consequences. As usual Erdogan is playing his game, toying with both NATO/US (requesting Patriots) and the RF, and pissing off just about everybody that matters.
Meanwhile the Tiger Forces (now 25th Division) are busy reducing the Idlib terrorist footprint and getting closer to the M4 highway.
How will this end up? I predict it won’t finish well for Erdogan. He doesn’t have too many friends anymore. Certainly not in Russia.

Posted by: Ant. | Feb 27 2020 14:27 utc | 142

JohninMK
Saraqib is not strategic point in this fight. Erdo and the headchoppers have expended a great deal of manpower to gain a propaganda point.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 10:46 utc | 138
Saraqib, control of M5 and, in perspective, M4 are strategic. The question is what it will cost to reverse that. It is most plausible to me that with limited air support at the disposal of SAA and RuAF, they chose to finish/suspend the operation is al-Zawiya mountains + al-Ghab plain at the stage that creates a line of positions that is easy to defend, and now they will focus at Saraqib area that does not seem easy to defend for the “headchoppers”. Nevertheless, Turkey gave them a huge amount of hardware, and apparently they know how to operate that, getting rid of thousands of vehicles from the air is not easy with reported capacity of 200 strikes per day (perhaps more, plus SAA) However, combined with ground based artillery, better tanks etc. one can be optimistic.
Turkey + headchoppers want to mobilize superior numbers of men and hardware and grind SAA at the position of their choosing, with good logistics to Turkey. Repeated attacks show their effectiveness in the past, but the effects were not durable during the recovery phase of the war.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 27 2020 14:34 utc | 143

To reinforce what I just posted, Sputnik has reported that Putin will not agree with Erdogan’s requested meeting on 5th March, saying he’s ‘too busy’.
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/202002271078418016-putin-not-currently-planning-talks-with-erdogan-in-istanbul-on-5-march—kremlin/
Russia has had enough of his Erdogan’s continuous bullshit. This is going to get nasty. Let’s hope NATO doesn’t get involved, otherwise we’re looking at WW3.

Posted by: Ant. | Feb 27 2020 14:41 utc | 144

@JohninMK | 136
“dropping like flies”
– Yeah you’re absolutely right. I was referring back to the original tweet but should have noticed. Even during the internal war againt Kurdish terrorists death counts are/ were rarely in double figures over any given week. But the claimed figures for those enemies killed in response has rocketed ))))
That aside,there is nothing to suggest that either the Turkish public or the politicians are reacting in any way differently. And according to Turkish media the people in Idlib are civilians and Turkey is protecting them. There is no Al Qaeda narrative except in some internet news aites which are either banned in Turkey or have very little readership. That isn’t to say that people don’t know, it is to say that they feel good knowing that they are saving Muslim lives while at the same time furthering Turkey’s expansionist interests. Who is going to argue against that? And no one does.
Even the deaths in Libya, which should be the most discomforting, were handled with irreverance by Erdogan and no one said a thing – okay Kilicdaroglu, but he’s all talk and no bite.
So, no I can’t agree with you.
Were the situation to escalate there may be a different response, but I don’t think it likely.
@Ant. | 144
On the NATO issue a Turkish “terrorism expert” was saying today on HaberTurk what many here have suggested that NATO may get involved if Russia were to hit Turkish weaponry on Turkish soil. But Russia is hardly likely to be so stupid,is it?
Will be interesting to see what Merkel and Macron come up with. I suspect they will just offer to hold Erdogan’s hand and help him save face somehow. Without Putin, what else can they do?

Posted by: Egor68500 | Feb 27 2020 16:03 utc | 145

Posted by: Egor68500 | Feb 27 2020 16:03 utc | 145
I’ll have to respectfully disagree on this statement. Kilicdaroglu having a different opinion on the matter of the Idlib offensive does at least signal that the public is not united on this matter. For example on the matter of the Kurds all more or less agree (with the exception of the Kurds themselves of course).
Libya, in contrast to Syria, at least has the saving argument that the muslim-brotherhood government of GNA somehow managed to become the internationally recognized one.
Erdogan’s war in Idlib in my opinion will depend entirely on the number of dead turkish soldiers, not the amount of land or battles it wins or loses. What is the breaking point for the unjustified war in Idlib for the public in Turkey? I estimated in the past about 10% of their standing army, around 60.000 dead turkish soldiers.

Posted by: redrooster | Feb 27 2020 16:28 utc | 146

@redrooster | 146
That HDP (or the Kurds) were the only ones to protest the internal state aggression against Kurdish communities in Turkey is just not true. The press at the time was, at least initially, far freer to express its opinion and Kilicdaroglu was up there protesting the activities. The ongoing “anti-terrorist” campaigns then became “Vatan ölmez, vatan bölmez”. So,disagree all you wish. But this has been about “survival” for Turkey for years now!
As for Libya, it is probably the most protested action of late (in Turkey) and still there is no serious political consequence and Erdogan’s flippant “a few dead” was not criticised anywhere.
As for “Erdogan’s war” in Idlib I really am not in the position to debate such supposition. Of course numbers are important as they are to any government. But the likelyhood of seeing such numbers is … Well put it this way, Erdogan can get away with a lot more, but probably not 60k, no.

Posted by: Egor68500 | Feb 27 2020 17:12 utc | 147

redrooster | Feb 27 2020 16:28 utc | 146
“I’ll have to respectfully disagree on this statement.”
Same with your statement. 😉
It will not depend on body counts. People are tired of this war and especially fed up with the ressources wasted with it. The Lira today went down a lot. Erdogan is not able to communicate in a believable way from which sources he funds it. Understandably not. When people are hungry bread is more important than Neo-Ottoman glory.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Feb 27 2020 17:14 utc | 148

Many thanks to b for posting this update and others that have supplied additional real time info.
Discussions of ideology and shifting alliances is important of course, but the immediate moment boils down to this:
All parties to this conflict understand that so long as foreign enemy combatants remain in NW Syria there will be no peace there, no normalcy, and no recovery. As reported here and in earlier threads Erdogan’s rhetoric concerning Idlib province it seems he’s convinced his land theft is a fait accompli. He has no intention of leaving. My guess, despite the success so far of the clearing campaign by SAA and Russia is that SAA, after a decade of the attrition of war is probably maxed out. A serious counter attack by combined Turkish forces (including AF) would probably be swift and conclusive. All Erdogan has to do is to get Putin to blink. I’m sure the Russians aren’t under any illusions about Erdogan’s intent to keep what he has stolen, so military contingency planning is now more urgent than fruitless diplomatic persuasion.
I always felt that one of the most serious casualties of the illegal US invasion of Iraq was the blatant shitting on any pretense of adherence to international law. Erdogan seems to have embraced what Turd Blossom so eloquently explained to us: “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.” And when we try to react, they will again act in ways we can not anticipate or hinder.
It’s obvious this aint over till it’s over, and I too await Erdogan’s proclaimed “deadline” with much trepidation. Russia has the most to lose here, imo, and perhaps we’re going to shortly find out the shape of (many) things to come.

Posted by: vinnieoh | Feb 27 2020 17:45 utc | 149

I fear that Russia will hit Turkey and hit Turkey hard should he make an effort to take Idlib directly. Then Washington and the EU can decide if they want to be destroyed in a third world war or let Erdoğan get his comeuppance

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Feb 27 2020 18:39 utc | 150

@@vinnieoh | 149
“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality.”
Excellent quote; debateable whether Turkey is indeed an empire in all but Beş Tepe dreams or whether that’s even relevant.))))
@Hausmeister | 148
Vwry good point. Both the TL rate and the Koronavirus fall out – despite claims that there is no threat in Turkey whatsoever – are hitting businesses hard. And throw in @Virgile points about tourism being hit and its going to be another tough summer for Turkey.

Posted by: Egor68500 | Feb 27 2020 18:56 utc | 151

It looks as though Erdogan’s proxies have cut the M5 at Saraqib. They have diverted forces and taken big losses to achieve what seems like a weak bargaining point for Erdogan while losing a big chunk of southern Idlibistan.
A better reason is that cutting the M5 is preparation for a Turk offensive.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 19:58 utc | 152

An hour ago the Russian airforce create a lot of Turkish kebab.
What happened:
– Turkey supported Jihadi attack against Saraqib. Syrian army retreated. Meanwhile other Syrian army units took all of south Idleb.
– Video appeared that showed Turkish soldiers using MANPAD against Russian planes. Russian TV accuses Turkey of that.
– Talks between Russia and Turkey broke down as Turkey demanded access for its drones to Syrian airspace.
– Turkish and Jihadi positions south of Idleb and near Saraqib were intensely bombed by Russian planes.
– Some 40 to 80 Turkish soldiers killed or wounded. Lots of ambulances arrive in Reyhanli, Turkey.
– Turkey holds emergency meeting with Erdogan.
Next:
– Either Turkey will retreat from Syria as the Turkish army will tell Erdogan that it has no chance against the Russians,
– or Erdogan will order his army to attack in Syria with full force and Russia will smash the attack with all the means it has.
Kebab, lots of kebab …

Posted by: b | Feb 27 2020 20:11 utc | 153

Turkey holds emergency meeting with Erdogan. <-- b The choice of people that Turkey can meet seems limited. That said, we should be above gloating, it is actually an occasion for sorrow. we could even commiserate with the president of Turkish Republic, as his government depends on the alliance with unhinged lunatics [paste from New Arab, it was reported elsewhere too, google "Bahceli Damascus]: A prominent ally of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has called on Turkey to ready itself to capture Damascus after Syrian regime fire killed a dozen Turkish soldiers over the past week. "The Turkish nation should plan to enter Damascus and destroy the oppressors if necessary," said Devlet Bahceli, leader of the ultra-nationalist Nationalist Movement Party (MHP).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 27 2020 20:28 utc | 154

In various speeches, Erdogan has said things very similar to that which were coming out of Hitler and his Nazi Germany. When pushing for more presidential power, he cited Nazi Germany as an example. His recent speech on Turkish borders… He really has got shit for brains speaking like that when he is up against Russia.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 20:28 utc | 155

Yeah *b*.
I’m following the developments and it looks like the Russian military has ‘had enough’ of the DOG and his playmates, and, like I said earlier, ‘twisted Vlad P’s arm’.
The kid-gloves have been taken-off.
Yep.
It’s *kebab time*.
Thanks *b* & Regards, X-

Posted by: Veritas X- | Feb 27 2020 20:31 utc | 156

Txs b, a dangerous crossroad is ahead of us..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 27 2020 20:36 utc | 157

154 MHP being the grey wolves parent political party.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 20:36 utc | 158

Re: Peter AU1, Feb 27 2020 20:36
In USA, the mark of a serious politician is to have a derangement syndrome named after them, like HRC, Trump or Sanders. In Turkey, the mark of a serious political party is a violent (terrorist) movement sympathetic the party line (each of the largest four parties have one).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 27 2020 20:43 utc | 159

As I had correctly reasoned it is all about the body count. Neither the economy nor anything else.
Confirmed: Twitter has become unavailable across #Turkey as of 11:30 p.m. local time for users of national provider Turk Telekom following alleged attack on Turkish troops in #Idlib; other social media currently unaffected; developing situation
https://twitter.com/netblocks/status/1233130470667440128

Posted by: redrooster | Feb 27 2020 20:51 utc | 160

Turkish government is methodical in its priorities. Shakespirean”The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers” was done, if humanely, sacking and arresting quite a few of them and keeping the rest loyal, “Shut down the Twitter” is the logical step number two.
Indeed, Twitter is full of unseemly gloating, like this exchange
— My guess is that Turkey already knows what and where they are going to attack.
— Probably the Kurds.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 27 2020 20:58 utc | 161

As long as it was SAA against Jihadists, the Russians limited their attacks to those from the air. Now that the Turkish forces are not only firing missiles towards the SAA and supplying jihadists with MANPADS, then the Russians cannot “leave things as they are”. They will possibly take out those “observation posts” that have been seen firing. They also have embeded Special forces that now may be under Turkish fire.
Two Kaliber armed frigates have left Sevastopol destination unknown.
The Ghab plain attack might have been planned to advance further North to cut the M4 and Al Shughur off from suppplies from Idlib area.
The “views” of Jihadists in Saraqib at the moment, are said to be old ones from when it was first taken. No confirmation of either viewpoint, but it would be typical Jihadist PR.
________
One odd thing is that the Hatay region (between the Idlib pocket and the Med. On maps it is signalled as “Turkish”.) is actually Syrian. It was “given” by the French in 1939 to get the Ottoman Empire’s support for WWII. (It was under “discussion” well before that). The Syrians didn’t agree, and for a long time the border was a “Fudge” affair. Neither side wanting an outright war. There is a large Turkish population but this annexation has never been agreed to by the Syrians.
But, With Oil or gas fields in the “Levantine basin” and Erdogans new claims of half the Med, if there are fields in the waters off Hatay – shouldn’t they be Syrian?
Incidentally, Hatay is also where Erdogan was going to “place” the Patriot missiles, to be close to the Russian base in Latakia.

Posted by: Stonebird | Feb 27 2020 21:04 utc | 162

The Russians are annoyed. Heavy bombardments by Airforce and SAA artillery. Confirmed 37 dead
https://twitter.com/A7_Mirza/status/1233133125393354753

Posted by: Stonebird | Feb 27 2020 21:12 utc | 163

Stonebird,
The Hatay population is Turkish today. It had a large Turkish and Armenian population even when the French ran Syria through a mandate. Even at the time of the referendum, around half the population of Hatay was ethnic Turkish. Before the French, it was Ottoman territory.
There may be a dispute, but frankly it isn’t a very strong one for Syria

Posted by: Blue Dotterel | Feb 27 2020 21:19 utc | 164

Stonebird @163–
Yes, likely many more as per Canthama’s reports:
“It is, their losses are huge, if confirmed, then it will be almost 100 KIA/WIA…we do all recall turkish regime MoD bragging that killed 150…200…250 Assad soldiers in retaliation of turkish soldiers being lightly injure (being cynic here)…this is a real deal…what I can say is that Turkish Military is completely against this erdoggy adventure, they know it can bring humiliation to Turkey and we also know Turkish people are proud of its past Ottoman Empire that almost ruled the world.
“The backstage must be red hot tonight….the turkish regime taking fire from Russia, SAA, from internal opposition and now having to explain 100 KIA/WIA soldiers in bed with al Qaeda ? Bring the internet down…this is the best way to avoid scenes of this bad day to go public…tomorrow the Turkish Erdoggy TV channel will be chanting war songs and say 10,000 Assad soldiers were killed in retaliation.
“Syria’s air defense is in full alert tonight, and have to say there are many trigger happy Syrians and Russians that would love to see some turkish jets being hit…revenge for so many Syrian choppers that went down due to turkish MANPADS and F16s or the Su24 and Su25 hit by Turkey and by turkish al Qaeda.
“It is going to be a long night, meanwhile, the SAA is rolling thru Idlib, soon downhill to M4.”
And Erdogan was so confident just a few hours ago.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 27 2020 22:04 utc | 165

karlof1
Have you run onto any mention of tiger force yet.
I ran onto one reference mentioning them at the southern front. I am starting to think that is where they are.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 22:10 utc | 166

This looks to be US terms to Erdogan.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-usa-graham-idUSKCN20L36M
“I hope President Erdogan will see that we are the ally of their past and their future, she said. “They see what Russia is, they see what they’re doing now,” she told reporters in a briefing. She repeated Washington’s call on Ankara to walk away from the purchase of the Russian missile defense system.”
In other related news, Erdogan is again sending refugees into Europe along with threats of many more to come.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 22:25 utc | 167

Sabaton view: there is no battle like Panzerkampf

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 27 2020 22:25 utc | 168

Peter AU 1 @166–
No, nothing as yet. Geroman’s back after being in Twitter’s jail for a week. Turkey shut down all social media networks after attack on convoy reported above. This isn’t confirmed yet:
“Air defenses at #Syria’s Hmeimim air base intercept two missiles fired from #Turkish soil.”
Same goes for this:
“TURKEY An official declaration of war on the Syrian regime will be published by parliament’s decision tomorrow.”
Tomorrow should prove interesting to say the least. Oh, and big night assault on to retake Saraqib likely involves Tiger Forces, although not confirmed.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 27 2020 22:27 utc | 169

Peter, this afternoon there was a report and short video that they were now heading back north, to help reverse the breakout.

Posted by: JohninMK | Feb 27 2020 22:32 utc | 170

Thanks karlof1 and JohninMK.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 22:38 utc | 171

The dogs unleashed: Sputnik Breaking the events.
Now in Russian court.
Israeli helicopters taking advantage to attack Syrian army in Quneitra
Erdo said it was going so well for him in Idlib:
Live Updates: 22 Turkish Troops Killed Under Fire in Syria’s Idlib
Unfortunate for Erdo. NATO is disunited on his being illegally on foreign soil.

Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 27 2020 22:56 utc | 172

It looks as though this Turk convoy has been hit with something like air burst fragmentation warheads. If they were full of troops, it would be quite messy inside.
https://twitter.com/ynms79797979/status/1233142472714465301

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 22:57 utc | 173

That convoy bombing is either days old or happened this morning and wasn’t much deadly.
What happened a couple of hours ago is Russian jets bombing the hell out of a Turkish HQ near Saraqib, after nightfall. Then Turkey was denied airspace and couldn’t send choppers to evacuate the wounded. One can pretty much assume that RUAF considers itself to be at war with Turkish army as far as the Syrian territory is concerned – which is a fair assessment, considering that Turkish army has massively shipped equipment, weapons, manpads and even tanks to the local Al-Qaeda branch, and apparently its own men there tried to down Russian jets with manpads.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 27 2020 23:14 utc | 174

MANPADS were used today (some say 3 times) against RUAF. It retaliated and incurred TSF losses. RU says enough so we are here..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 27 2020 23:20 utc | 175

Clueless Joe
Interior of the Kebab wagons. https://twitter.com/maytham956/status/1233158957222502401
Larger https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ER0PhWZU0AETo6i?format=jpg&name=small

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 23:21 utc | 176

A mention of 25th or tiger forces in Southfront’s most recent piece.
“Local sources name the Syrian Army overcommitment to the advance south of the M4 highway as one of the causes of the recent setbacks in Saraqib. According to them, a large number of trained and experienced units, including the 25th Special Forces Division and the 4th Division, were redeployed from Saraqib to southern Idlib. Other issues are the lack of coordination among pro-government units and close-air-support.”

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 23:23 utc | 177

When Erdo states “We are the host there [in Idlib] that would be declaring Syria’s sovereign territory his and pray who is he hosting? – the terrorists!
Once again Erdo has proven that he cannot be trusted. Signature not worth a pinch of…….. fill in the blank.
Big question: will we be looking at all-out war?

Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 27 2020 23:25 utc | 178

Turkey meeting with NATO now. I can hear the Turks screaming at NATO saying You’re as much in this war against Syria as us, but you haven’t done anything! All the fake justifications for the war are now in a heap on the ground. There’s no saving face for Erdogan. He either withdraws or loses more Turkish soldiers in an attempt to prop up NATO’s terrorist Foreign Legion. The Turks are blaming the attack on Syria when it’s their own fault for being there. Russia confirmed it bombed the convoy. Confirmations of Turkish troops using Manpads at RuAf and SaAF planes today says the Turks reaped what they sowed. Apparently, the NFZ was temporarily lifted to allow Turk helos to evac dead and wounded. 79 KIA is now the unofficial count.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 27 2020 23:41 utc | 179

Peter, it was only Tiger reserves sent north, the main force is still in the south.
We will see what happens tonight but SAA HQ seem to be letting more and more terrorists be attracted (sucked in) to the Saraqib area by their brilliant breakout, getting them out of the hills onto the plains.
It seems to me to be unclear where all these Turkish casualties (possibly 27 dead now) come from, either a convoy or a Turkish Army command building in Idlib that the RuAF may have flattened today. So far I have only seen a Charles Lister post on the latter
https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister/status/1233123693108383744
If correct you can see the Russians logic when hitting artillery batteries didn’t alter Turkey’s plan perhaps hitting higher up the chain would. Also, the request for CASEVAC helicopters seems to be new, implying officers down.

Posted by: JohninMK | Feb 27 2020 23:42 utc | 180

Syria could turn the tables on Erdogshit, who is quite rightly paranoid about coups against him.
The Grey Wolves are Kemalist (secularist & nationalist) and opposed to Erdo’s Muzzie caliphate ambitions. And Erdo knows it. That’s why he’s sent his Kemalist opponents in the army into Syria, deliberately under-equipped, both to boost the jihadis and get rid of his own enemies. Two birds with one stone.
If the Grey Wolves realized this, they’d be open to set up a Turkish (Kemalist) government-in-exile in Idlib and threaten to take Hatay.
Turkey would then have the civil war, not Syria.
Karma.

Posted by: John Marks | Feb 27 2020 23:43 utc | 181

JohninMK
Starting to look like two strikes if the strike on a headquarters building is correct.
Until now, the convoys Russia has hit have been machinery transports.
The recent convoy strike was against a convoy of troop carriers using fragmentation warheads which has resulted in a lot of casualties. Very little would have survived in those lead vehicles which have been peppered with shrapnel.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 23:56 utc | 182

“Big question: will we be looking at all-out war?”
Brethren, Babylon a fall soon come.. Seen?

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 28 2020 0:14 utc | 183

Brethren, Babylon a fall soon come.. Seen?
Posted by: Lozion | Feb 28 2020 0:14 utc | 183
Seen!

Posted by: tucenz | Feb 28 2020 0:30 utc | 184

Peter AU1, the airstrike that did the damage could well have been SyAF not RuAF.

Posted by: JohninMK | Feb 28 2020 0:31 utc | 185

Does “We are not the guests in this realm, we are the hosts” mean that Erdogan will try to invoke Article 5 by claiming that the territory was rightfully under the control/protection of Turkey (via Astana agreement) and thus “Turkish territory”?
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 28 2020 0:34 utc | 186

Jackrabbit:
He might well try. At which point, the Greek ambassador could remind NATO that Turkey is a criminal state occupying half of EU member Cyprus and is openly waging asymmetric warfare against NATO EU members by trying to flood them with refugees – basically asking for Erdogan’s head or expelling Turkey. Greece and Cyprus should also rise Hell at all top EU levels and call for common EU military actions against that Turkish rogue-state – to put some pressure on Erdogan.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Feb 28 2020 0:43 utc | 187

JohninMK
It could well be. My thinking is that these type of strikes are very closely tied to Russia’s geo-political strategy. Geo-political strategy has been Russia’s most potent weapon in its Syria moves, so I think any military moves within Syria are subordinate to the geo-political. I think Assad and Syria recognise this with the result that Syria in the military sphere operates to Russian strategy.
More bluntly, because of its geo-political power, Russia runs the military show in Syria.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 28 2020 0:54 utc | 188

@ 183 Lozion, welcome back.
Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and Messenger are now blocked via multiple ISPs in Turkey. See Live Updates link@ 172

Posted by: Likklemore | Feb 28 2020 0:57 utc | 189

I suspect Russia is operating a very tightly controlled escalation strategy since Erdogan first threatened to drive the SAA back. Escalate, wait for that to sink in, then escalate again.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 28 2020 0:59 utc | 190

Some satire. Hitlers reaction to Erdogan and terrorist refugees flooding into Europe.
https://twitter.com/Souria4Syrians/status/755014316407988224

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 28 2020 1:37 utc | 191

@190 peter.. i suspect that is exactly right.. win, win..

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2020 1:54 utc | 192

Live updates from SputnikNews
!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 28 2020 1:58 utc | 193

thanks for the comments from everyone.. i have been away today…
Turkey requests access from Russia to use armed drones in Syria’s airspace – headline at almashar news.. we all know the answer…
things look a wee bit more intense today… ramp up into late march going on here.. mars- saturn conjunction march 30th…

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2020 1:59 utc | 194

@John Marks | 181
Erdogan’ss two-handed salute; Rabia and Bozkurt.
Slightlyy awkward bedfellows maybe but alligned for now nonetheless. There was an article posted here that mentioned this grey wolves sent to the fron rubbish abd thw author’s only support for this theory was “we know” – well they clearly don’t!!
Erdogan did start talk of a second coup a fortnight or so ago but most dismissed it as distraction politics. You reckon that they were rash to do so …? We’ll see.
@Jackrabbit | 186 The translation is not correct. There is no definite article in Turkish so a different structure would have to be used to express the same. Here Erdogan was not saying that the territory is Turkey’s – though he has alluded to its Ottoman history before.
A lot of the talk is about the west including NATO giving nothing but lip service so it may be that Erdogan is looking for support and upping the ante to get it. Also don’t forget that NATO stated clearly that the Shah tomb in Syria which even Syria considered Turkish territory was not accepted as such by NATO. Times have changed since those early years of the conflict though …

Posted by: Egor68500 | Feb 28 2020 2:08 utc | 195

This seems to be the latest.
“Turkish Defence Minister Arrives in Tactical Command Center Near Syrian Border to Control Anti-Damascus Op – Report”
I hope Erdo should is stocking up on edible ties. Saakashvili with a little US encouragement thought he could take on Russia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ02MlVRcMA

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 28 2020 2:21 utc | 196

@196 Source Peter?

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 28 2020 2:27 utc | 197

@184 / 189:
Plague on the Land..
https://youtu.be/fWtWkN1gm4M

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 28 2020 2:36 utc | 198

@Likklemore | 189
Being reported as a “slow down” but you’re right the sites have not been accessible for hours now. Can’t decide whether that’s a good sign or not …

Posted by: Egor68500 | Feb 28 2020 2:39 utc | 199

Lozion
Its been linked a couple of times upthread. Sputnik live feed. I also found it in Turk media before it appeared at Sputnik. The link again https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/202002271078422764-nine-turkish-troops-killed-under-fire-in-syrias-idlib-governor-of-hatay-province-claims/

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 28 2020 2:40 utc | 200