Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 05, 2020

Open Thread 2020-09

News & views ...

Posted by b on February 5, 2020 at 16:06 UTC | Permalink

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The real deep state ?

I never heard of the family until about 45 mins. ago. I was surfing netflix and came across the mini-series. What I have read about this "family" scares the crap out of me!

Meet The Family, a wasp xtian satanist cult embedded right at the core of murkkan power, who counts Ghengis Khan, KIng David, Suharto [Clinton's our kind of guy] as its 'heroes'.

'In Donald Trump, The Family found their Wolf King, a man who will not lie down like a sheep. Rather, he is a biblical-style bully who represents the epitome of muscular Christianity by devouring the meek. Inserting their long-time soldier Mike Pence into the Trump orbit, The Family ensured this wolf would advance their capitalist Christian agenda.

While the majority of leaders connected to this clan claim the Republican label, the series points to Bill and Hillary Clinton and other like-minded neoliberals who are connected to Coe and who praise the work of The Family. Included in this mix are progressive thought leaders who build their platforms and publishing deals based on their public veneer as a new kind of Christian, a warrior willing to do battle against those Bible believers who back a Trumpian theology.

But as The Family demonstrates, these progressive Christians are equally complicit in supporting the structure that placed Trump into power. Anyone who participates in the National Prayer Breakfast, the Fellowships’ congressional prayer breakfasts, or some other Family-friendly gatherings cannot claim they are engaging in “bridge building.” In practice, they’re doing The Family’s business by continuing Vereide’s legacy, utilizing the name of Jesus to advance the interests of industry titans

Trump, Pence, Clinton...
https://thehumanist.com/arts_entertainment/culture/the-family-more-gilead-than-godly

Ghengis Khan,
https://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/07/10/washington-dcs-the-family/

hillary suharto...
https://ronaldthomaswest.com/2016/08/03/the-coe-cult-the-donald-election-scam/

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106115324

Posted by: denk | Feb 7 2020 17:23 utc | 301

donkeytale @181

I'm not failing to connect class struggle in China at all. There's quite a lot of it. Some is aided by the state (the only place on Earth McDonald's workers are unionized is in the PRC), most is grassroots (workers have even killed supervisors in job disputes... with the state upholding the workers' cause). We comment here on the Yellow Vests in France; even allowing for China's far greater population that level of class struggle goes on all the time, with the state listening to the demands of community and workers.

Obviously China has allowed foreign investment and private ownership, specifically to develop the productive forces (in a socialist "sandbox" as has been said) and to *enlarge the proletariat*. The Chinese flag has four smaller stars, one each for the workers, peasants, intellectuals and national capitalists. The relation of forces between these classes at any given time is a function of class struggle, in the context of Communist leadership and socialist organization of the economy of course. As in any war or struggle, the battle lines can shift over time. Any battle leadership must know how to choose the best ground, to develop their forces, to retreat tactically or even strategically (e.g. the Long March) in order to come back stronger later. We should not be surprised at any of this, or at any of the contradictions that form the dialectic of the still-ongoing Chinese Revolution. Or any revolution.

China "profoundly imperialist"? Funny kind of imperialism: their New Silk Road, twelve times bigger in comparable financial terms to the US Marshall Plan, has no military component such as the US's imposing NATO on Europe.


ps, appreciating and absolutely seconding the comments of vk, foolisholdman and clickkid above.

Posted by: Vintage Red | Feb 7 2020 19:22 utc | 302

Below is a short quote from a Xinhuanet posting about another corner of our globe making sound.

"
MANILA, Feb. 7 (Xinhua) -- Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte wants Foreign Secretary Teodoro Locsin to notify Washington about the intention of Manila to terminate the Visiting Forces Agreement (VFA) between the United States and the Philippines, Presidential Spokesperson Salvador Panelo said on Friday.

"President Duterte is instructing Executive Secretary (Salvador) Medialdea to tell Foreign Affairs Secretary Locsin to send the notice of termination to the U.S. government," said Panelo in a text message to reporters.

Panelo said Duterte is also scheduled to speak with U.S. President Donald Trump through a phone call "soon." He did not elaborate when the telephone call will take place.
"

Is there a resolution to the US troops still being in South Korea without an agreement?

Would Germany ever tell US troops to leave? Has the cost of having those troops gone up more than 5 fold like is being proposed in South Korea?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 7 2020 20:29 utc | 303

Just to reinforce what Vintage Red @303 posted above is this from CIApedia: "... the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences estimated the number of annual mass incidents [protests] to exceed 90,000, and Chinese sociology professor Sun Liping estimated 180,000 incidents in 2010..."

There are so many protests because in China they work. When workers or villagers march to the local CCP office, the CCP members run out with their notebooks and take notes on what everybody is upset over and what ideas they have to fix things.

Do keep in mind that membership in the CCP is open to anybody who is willing to put in the effort, but most Chinese choose not to because doing the occasional protest is easier and they still get much of what they demand, at least so long as it is realistically achievable. Being a CCP party member is seen as being a lot of extra work for few extra perks, so as long as the people who choose that path in life are doing a reasonable job the rest of the Chinese people are willing to take a pass on it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Feb 7 2020 20:51 utc | 304

This is a keeper:

A tactic admitted to:

"
Mr. Weissmann, a Democratic Party donor and one of 18 Mueller prosecutors, also lamented he could never get Mr. Trump to sit down for an interview where a slip up could have resulted in federal perjury charges.
"
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/feb/7/muller-prosecutor-weissmann-says-look-italian-mode/

Someone tell George Papadopoulos' lawyer, "Here you go".

The FBI got George P on a process crime. It was a goal of the FBI/G.P. interview, not an haphazard outcome.
[reminder] The FBI got G.P. on a quibble of a minor detail, relating to the timing G.P. joined the Trump campaign.

Posted by: librul | Feb 7 2020 20:55 utc | 305

oh must be more green fascism
https://weather.com/news/climate/news/2020-02-07-antarctica-record-high-preliminary-esperanza-base

Posted by: pretzelattack | Feb 7 2020 21:35 utc | 306

William Gruff @305--

That's an excellent example of how Democratic Centralism functions and how everyone in the PRC gets to participate in their nation's political process. It's almost as if the CPC was a Western Green Party whose decision making is based on consensus after input from however many desire to participate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 7 2020 21:39 utc | 307

The Saker's written an outstanding essay, "Our fundamental disagreement about WWII, Hitler, Jews and race", which IMO is one of his best--very educational! Although tangential to the central topic, this comment is worthy of contemplation:

"B.F. on February 07, 2020 at 2:32 am EST/EDT

"The Saker

"You wrote another excellent article. However, I think you should have elaborated on the statement made by the EU, which accused both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union of starting World War two, which is totally and utterly absurd.

"It is not surprising that the EU made such a statement, bearing in mind that the EU Central Bank is in the hands of private bankers, the very same ones who in 1931 created the Bank of International Settlement in Basel, Switzerland, and one which financed Hitler. On top of that you had Wall Street, which invested in Germany after World War One, like Henry Ford, who provided the German Army with transport. The point is that private bankers on a number of occasions tried to destroy Russia; in 1812 they financed Napoleon, in 1853 they financed the Crimean War, in 1871 the enabled the unification of Germany, preparing it for future world wars with Russia, in 1917 they both financed and organized the Russian “revolution” and after that they both financed and prepared Hitler for war with Russia. Readers better remember that the largest armies created by Napoleon and Hitler were the ones used against Russia. Historians never explained where Napoleon and Hitler found the money to finance them. The banker controlled EU is, of course, trying to negate and conceal all of this by overturning facts and presenting outrageous accusations.

"Finally, just to remind readers that EU countries are also NATO members. Since Napoleon, the Kaiser, Lenin, Trotsky and Hitler all failed in the destructive attempts, the bankers are now backing NATO which, in conjunction with the EU, pulled that coup d’etat against Yanukovich in Kiev in 2014, hoping to place NATO along Russian borders. NATO too will fail. Interestingly enough, it is becoming unpopular in Europe, while the esteem of Russia is on the rise."

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 7 2020 22:09 utc | 308

@ Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 7 2020 22:09 utc | 309

It's a very weird take by the Saker. It's no secret that the German capitalist class was all in with Hitler, and that cooperation existed from the start (including the German bankers).

It's also no secret that international trade never fully stopped with the Third Reich and the USSR. It was reduced a lot, but never fully stopped.

The only big mystery here are these alleged bankers who financed the October Revolution. I've never heard of any of them. Either way, if they did, they made an extremely stupid decision: one of the very first decrees by the Bolsheviks was the annulment of all the Russian foreign debt. To say the Western imperialist elites became livid with this decision is to be very euphemistic: even with the WWI still ongoing, even with the USA still with its "isolationist" foreign policy", they still managed to find the funds, the materiel and the men to build and finance the White Army - a Frankenstein made of the scum of the scum of the old Russian Empire and mercenaries and bandits from all the corners of the capitalist world. If anything, those bankers funded the Whites, not the reds.

The deep hatred of the bankers to the Bolsheviks continued long after the second part of the Cold War begun. Famous Marxist philosopher György Lukács was born very rich, being the son of a banker. He was disinherited by his own father after he discovered his son became a communist.

Posted by: vk | Feb 7 2020 22:41 utc | 309

Stop the press! We finally have a sensible headline in the NYT!

The Age of Decadence - Cut the drama. The real story of the West in the 21st century is one of stalemate and stagnation.

First worlders should indeed cut the drama. The "experiment" has failed.

Posted by: vk | Feb 7 2020 22:49 utc | 310

vk @310--

No, the comment I cited was addressed to The Saker, not by him. His essay isn't about finance at all. Do note its title at the top of my comment.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 7 2020 23:19 utc | 311

vk @311--

The writer is incompetent as he has no clue about the actual historical basis of his comparison. Indeed, the number of fallacies he engages in is staggering. My little gray cells are aching!

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 7 2020 23:29 utc | 312

@pretzelattack #307
Yes, the record temperature is 0 degrees C.
Except the measurement is for liquid water under a glacier, so it was never going to be that low to start with.
Meh.

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 7 2020 23:33 utc | 313

@ Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 7 2020 23:29 utc | 313

I agree with you. But the headline is correct.

Posted by: vk | Feb 7 2020 23:39 utc | 314

@c1ue #239:

Normal flu mortality is 4.3 per 100,000
Wuhan is a city of 11.5 million people.
Even if the 2 week mortality is 400 - it isn't at all clear to me that the situation is extremely abnormal.

Your argument would be true if a normal flu would be infecting an entire city in two weeks. That’s not how it works. Take a look at the “influenza-like illness” weekly incidence chart for Miami in this article. As you can see, even at the peak of the epidemic in winter only about 1.5% of population gets infected each week. So for Wuhan that would be 3% of population = 345,000 people in two weeks, resulting in 345,000 × 4.3/100,000 = 15 deceased in two weeks. Not 400 deceased in two weeks, as we observe with 2019-nCoV. Hopefully, now it’s clear to you that the situation is, indeed, “extremely abnormal” compared to a normal flu.

Posted by: S | Feb 8 2020 6:54 utc | 315

I agree with S in comment # 316 that the 2019-nCoV is a serious threat.

I just posted two comments on the

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/02/coronaupdate/comments/page/4/#comments

thread
AND
one of the reported "facts " is that China now has 400 million of its population in lock down over 2019-nCoV

How will the Western (Gotta keep health care private - Trump) countries respond when 2019-nCoV comes calling?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 8 2020 7:09 utc | 316

Guardian Strikes Back with its publication

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/07/inquiry-strikes-blow-to-russian-denials-of-syria-chemical-attack

A Russia-led campaign that claimed the UN weapons watchdog had manipulated evidence of a Syrian government chemical weapons attack has been dealt a blow by an official inquiry showing that two former employees hailed as whistleblowers had little direct access to the evidence and inflated their role.

Posted by: Mario Blum | Feb 8 2020 7:44 utc | 317

Naturally I am entirely confident that the affair of Corona is absolutely a coincidence, don't ya think?

" “A gun or a bomb leaves no doubt that a deliberate attack has occurred. But if … an epidemic slashes across a crowded city, there is no way of knowing whether anyone attacked, much less who”, adding hopefully that “A significant portion of the human population within selected target areas may be killed or incapacitated” with only very small amounts of a pathogen." Pentagon’s Committee on Biological Warfare

Globalresearch dot ca

I see that the copper price collapsed prior in time to the CV affair,,,whaddayaknow. (Keiser 1499)

Posted by: Walter | Feb 8 2020 7:56 utc | 318

@Mario Blum #318

Among its many lies and misrepresentations, The Guardian article features a misleading map. The map makes the reader think that the white-colored areas are government-controlled and the yellow-colored areas are opposition-controlled. It doesn’t say that outright, but that’s the impression it creates. So the reader might think that the entire Eastern Ghouta was controlled by the opposition at the time. In reality, the situation looked like this (April 4). Why is that important? Because the opposition-controlled area was tiny, completely surrounded and overwhelmed by government forces, and too far from Damascus to pose any mortar or artillery threat to government buildings and densely populated areas—meaning there was no pressing reason, no high-stakes life-or-death situation for the government to deploy chemical weapons.

On April 2, 1065 militants and their family members were evacuated from Douma to Jarabulus (occupied by Turkish forces) under a deal between Jaish al-Islam and the Syrian government. On April 3, 1198 militants and their families were evacuated from Douma to “the northern part of Aleppo province, which is controlled by Turkish forces”, bringing the total numbers of evacuated people to 2263. Naturally, those Douma residents who were not part of the opposition as well as militants who chose to surrender their weapons and reconcile with the government stayed in Douma. Why would the government then proceed to assault them with chemical weapons on April 7? It makes no sense.

As usual, the comments under the article are disabled—one has to visit OffGuardian to read a rebuttal of OPCW’s “independent investigation”.

Posted by: S | Feb 8 2020 9:33 utc | 319

Affected Iranian and Iraqi people have started to sue those confessed responsible in the US for the assassinations of General Commander Qassem Soleimani, Commander Al Muhandis, and their companions.


Iranians sue the US after the murder of General Qasem Soleimani

The families of 48 Iranian martyrs defenders in Iraq and Syria sue the US after the terrorist attack and murder of Iranian Lieutenant General Qasem Soleimani.

“We could not file a lawsuit against the US Government. under international law, that is why we demand for the murder of the commander of the Quds Force of the Guardian Corps of the Islamic Revolution (CGRI) of Iran, Lieutenant General Qasem Soleimani to US officials and President Donald Trump, ”said the Director of an Iranian legal institute, Mohamadreza Musavifard, this Saturday at a press conference.

According to Musavifard, the lawsuit has referred to the role of the United States. in the creation of the terrorist group EIIL (Daesh, in Arabic) and the acceptance of responsibility for the murder of Soleimani by President Trump and his diplomacy through Twitter.

The lawyer has added that to this legal presentation documents are attached, which are references of Western media, in which they themselves have recognized their actions. There have also been tweets from representatives of the United States Congress that refer to US government support for terrorists.

In addition, he has alleged that when the US murdered Soleimani and the subcomandante of the Popular Mobilization Units of Iraq (Al-Hashad Al-Shabi, in Arabic), Abu Mahdi al-Muhandis, they were not conducting military operations, an obvious reason why Washington has violated the international law when killing a foreign official in another country.

AS they were condemned the German Nazi and all the rest of authors of summary executions in the LatinAmerican dictatorships, and as it was condemned to pay compensations the German nation to the Jewsih people, due the current evidence available, I think they should start similar judicial processes all those people who have suffered the effects of IS/Daesh and Al Qaeda terrorist attacks and terrorist activity everywhere against all those involved in creating, funding, arming and training them:

Sarah Abdallah @sahouraxo US-made guns, ammo, shells and Grad missiles. All left behind by Al-Qaeda terrorists in Idlib.

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1225533189952856064

As soon as Donald Trump claims everybody to pay more for everything the US is involved along with any country, to see if the final account is favourable to him or to the rest of the countries in the world where IS or AQ have commited terrorist attacks...including sevweral European countries who, for now, are members of NATO...This should be a claim for any government who claims to be a representative of the people, as it is that currently in charge in Spain, where several deathful terrorist attacks by these US MADE terrorist organizations have taken place.
Of course, the national collaborators should be sued along...

Posted by: Sasha | Feb 8 2020 12:42 utc | 320

Iteresting that US government and presstitutes warn of danger of Russia, China and communist influence while itt becomes increasing centrally planned, authoritarian, oligarchic and manipulative of public via propaganda and censorship and threats.

Posted by: jared | Feb 8 2020 12:55 utc | 321

Meanwhile alternative voices speak with praise of Putin and Xi while bemaoning the western tilt toward corruption, censorship and oligarchy.

Some but how many of those same who in fact choose to move from US to Russia or China - acting on principle. And how well would they live if they did so.

While we attack Venezuela, Ecuador, Brazil and Guatemala, those people are moving to US in droves - for a "better" life.

Posted by: jared | Feb 8 2020 13:02 utc | 322

Could it be that we are being misled?

Or as Giraldi claims is it that we are championing sides in a gang war? Battle of psychopaths.

We, the little people.

Posted by: jared | Feb 8 2020 13:07 utc | 323

William Gruff @305--

That's an excellent example of how Democratic Centralism functions and how everyone in the PRC gets to participate in their nation's political process. It's almost as if the CPC was a Western Green Party whose decision making is based on consensus after input from however many desire to participate.

--Karlof1


The CPC as Green party? That's a good one. Just leave out the wine caves and the Volvos, not to mention add the immense environmental degradation and voila, the CPC is the Green Party. LMAO

Thanks also to Vintage Red and Gruff for their robotic, fact-free rhetorical defenses of the current Chinese economic caste system. You didn't address my main point at all which is class struggle, the central feature of Marxism has been entirely suppressed by the Chinese ruling elites. And I note Gruff's reliance on Wikipedia to make a point that the article he links to doesn't quite make...

Why is this important? Because by all known measures Chinese wealth and income inequality is expanding rapidly and approaching the zenith (or nadir if you prefer) set by the US. Of course, China doesn't allow for much economic data to be published but data opacity is hardly a defense, although the cheerleaders will attempt to hide behind the data scarcity anyway. Income tax data has been made available in recent years and this helps researchers to better determine wealth and income gaps.

His book Capital in the Twenty-First Century examined trends in inequality over the last two centuries in the United States and Western Europe. Piketty found that while inequality had fallen in the mid 20th century, since about 1975 it has been rising at an alarming rate as income from wealth (such as property and other assets) outpaced income earned from working. The 2013 book would become a surprise bestseller and perhaps the most influential economics book of the 21st century.

Now Piketty, along with his colleagues Li Yang and Gabriel Zucman, has turned his sights on China. For a forthcoming paper, the economists use tax data, surveys, and China’s national accounting statistics to estimate the growth of Chinese inequality from 1978 to 2015—the period since China liberalized its economy. The researchers find that while nearly all Chinese people are better off economically than they were three decades ago, the gains have been strongest at the top. They estimate that the share of income going to the top 1% has risen from 6% in 1978 to about 14% in 2015—a share that is less than in the US (20%) but higher than in France (10%).

Of course, VK and Vintage Red will likely explain this is as China on the road to the end of history, when a CPC-controlled experiment at some undetermined future point in time will lead to a big bang event whereby all wealth and income disparity will dissolve into a communist paradise.

The same "end of history" events were proclaimed for decades by the Soviet Union too as I recall as a way to rationalise its internal contradictions which resolved when the USSR dissolved into...global capitalism. And of course, the collapse of the USSR also led Western observers to proclaim the "end of history" as well.

However, I note the propensity of the human psychology to remain rooted in the seven deadly sins still abides everywhere. Good luck to China in its quest to rise above basic humanity.

“We should allow some… to earn more and enjoy more benefits sooner than others, in accordance with their hard work and greater contributions to society,” said Deng Xiaoping in a speech at the time China embarked on its opening up. “If the standard of living of some people is raised first, this will inevitably be an impressive example to their ‘neighbors,’ and people in other regions and units will want to learn from them. This will help the whole national economy to advance wave upon wave.”

Posted by: donkeytale | Feb 8 2020 13:11 utc | 324

I dont think that it is implicit that everyone should have same or similar standard of living. Not workable.

But humanity should seek to ensure that everyone is given opportunity to maintain decent standard of living. Which sounds like neoliberal, but that is equated with where I claim that by dispossessing some of there home and way of life and enriching myself and cohorts that it might ultimately benefit those same charming little people even if only that I will agree to pay their daughters for sex

Posted by: jared | Feb 8 2020 13:34 utc | 325

@ Posted by: donkeytale | Feb 8 2020 13:11 utc | 325

Funny you argue there's no class struggle in China. The trotskyists tell us the exact opposite: that the number os strikes in China has been beating record after record, and that, therefore, the CCP is a capitalist party and, hence, it will soon fall to a (true) communist revolution.

So, which is it? Is China a historical abortion where class struggle was successfully supressed; or us China an hyper-capitalist nation where class struggle is booming? You anti-China middle classers must decide. At least try to unify your propaganda narrative.

Posted by: vk | Feb 8 2020 13:34 utc | 326

VK - links to these voluminous numbers of strikes and more importantly, how were these strikes handled by the CPC authorities and the official state union?

Have these many strikes led to a decrease in the growing wealth inequality in China?

Data please.

Posted by: donkeytale | Feb 8 2020 13:39 utc | 327

@ Posted by: donkeytale | Feb 8 2020 13:39 utc | 328

For that, you must ask the trotskysts. Last time I checked, they claimed more than 500 strikes per month (and rising). They think they are closer than ever to toppling the "stalinists" (i.e. capitalists) of the CCP - even though all the information they have is second-hand and they are not un control of the Chinese labor movement at all.

Yes, with the "reform and opening up" inequality in Gini term has indeed skyrocketed in China. But the CCP realized that and interfered, and it has since grown to a halt and is even lowering again (albeit at a vegetative rate).

But that's inequality in GINI terms. Real wages in China continue to grow steadily, at a rate of doubling every ten years. Chinese wages (per hour) has already surpassed "emerging economy" darling Brazil and will soon be double of it in sone years (Brazil is now in an economic depression, so it's not going anywhere). The list of countries that will continue to be able to make fun of China's "sweatshops" is getting smaller.

Posted by: vk | Feb 8 2020 14:00 utc | 328

BBC silent on the death of the first US citizen from the virus (while in Wuhan). Unclear whether the person is of Chinese background or not.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/08/asia/coronavirus-deaths-china-intl-hnk/index.html

Posted by: Mina | Feb 8 2020 14:14 utc | 329

The waiver allowing Iraq to purchase Iranian oil is set to expire by the end of this month. I imagine that said waiver is conditional on a continued NATO presence in the country.

Posted by: Timothy Hagios | Feb 8 2020 14:26 utc | 330

@S #316
Sorry, but your lack of statistical understanding is still failing you.
nCOV is new - thus unlike a normal flu, there are neither vaccine shots to reduce symptoms/increase immunity nor is there an existing population of partially/fully immune.
Given this - the virus *will* spread just like any new flu, and people *will* get it sooner or later. Which means the mortality rate is all that matters - not the absolute numbers of people dying.
The quarantine measures are to slow down its spread - no one with a lick of sense believes it will make nCOV disappear forever.
Slowing down the spread will give time to create a vaccine, also will reduce the likelihood that a mutation into a more deadly form will occur.
Or in other words, it is a tragedy but far from clear this is swine flu or anything really serious.
You also ignore the reality that 88% of the deaths are men over 60 with a severe secondary condition like diabetes - a profile not too dissimilar with normal flu deaths.
Step away from the crap internet news articles.

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 8 2020 14:27 utc | 331

@donkeytale #325
China's inequality is high and rising, but my personal view is that most people are ok with other people getting rich - so long as they feel they have the opportunity to prosper as well.
I would also note that China's government has been and continues to take public and active measures to fight this - unlike the US.
This is not to say that China knows what it is doing in this area or has a handle on the problem.
It says they recognize the issue and are working on it.
That's ultimately all you can expect from any government.
I would also note that - as I've said before - China's government had the benefit of watching and learning from other's mistakes, particularly the Soviet Union. It is abundantly clear that China was determined not to be undermined by its own bureaucracy or citizen's desire for material goods - the lack of rule of law in China can partially be traced to precisely this.
The deployment of provincial and municipal governments as "startups", with the ability to create money by selling bonds/issuing credit - is unprecedented, and the central government has reinforced the winners.

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 8 2020 14:34 utc | 332

VK @ 329

Yes, with the "reform and opening up" inequality in Gini term has indeed skyrocketed in China. But the CCP realized that and interfered, and it has since grown to a halt and is even lowering again (albeit at a vegetative rate).

Not actually trying to argue with you but my point is in order to make a point you must have data to back it up.

So, I ask again, do you have data to back this up, that inequality is reversing? (And sorry, a Xi speech does not qualify as data).

What little we do know is China's economy continues to slow. And from the history of other capitalist economies without much of a social safety net, decreasing economic growth hits the little people hardest while the globalist elites simply shift their accumulated wealth into better performing assets. Thus, the wealth and income gaps tend to increase not decrease during a slowing economy.

And, for a so-called socialist state, China still possesses an undeveloped and unequal social safety net.

Big pieces of the social safety net were still missing. Many rural residents, unemployed urban residents, and jobless migrants were not covered by pension programs until 2009. Further revisions in 2015 broadened the umbrella of coverage in a transition from a state-enterprise to a state-society model, Zhu and Walker note.

As a result, most of China’s 1.4 billion people are now covered, but the uneven system exacerbates inequalities, note Zhu and Walker. "First, an important aspect of social stratification has been reshaped into five distinct pension scheme classes," they write. "Second, the new pension model has strengthened the link between benefits and contributions, which privileges the better off."

By nearly every measure we see China's experience emulating the neoliberalism rampant in Western Capitalism. Thus, I am not as sanguine as you and other fact-free China cheerleaders about the coming pristine future of Chinese class free society.

Posted by: donkeytale | Feb 8 2020 14:52 utc | 333

I don't expect to ever see a thread titled: "Why did the CIA chief died" so I guess this goes belongs in the off-topic territorry.

——
BACN as a concept

BACN has been a controversial program within the DoD. This is caused by a number of issues including the personality clashes between the service people who conceived the project back in late 2004 and the traditional acquisition bureaucracy.[citation needed] This was particularly true between requirements developers at the former Air Force Command and Control Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance Center at Langley AFB, Virginia and their acquisition partners at the Electronic Systems Center (ESC) at Hanscom AFB, Massachusetts, part of Air Force Materiel Command.

BACN divides military planners and acquisition bureaucrats on two main fronts. First, how will an "Airborne Network" evolve beyond the existing tactical data links on today's platforms. Second, the BACN effort presupposes that the capability will initially be "outsourced" to commercial companies that will provide an "airborne network" as a service to the DOD for the foreseeable future.

From: Battlefield Airborne Communications Node
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlefield_Airborne_Communications_Node
——

(Bassicaly infighting between the CIA & US Air Force on who will put what in there and what to not implement because concepts will be rolling out to the comercial sector eventually. I suspect towards Trump campaign donnors to create the "Trump 5G" network eventually)

It seems the BACN technology is now in the hands of the Taliban:

——
Accident

The aircraft crashed at 13:10 local time (08:40 UTC) in the Dih Yak District. Ghazni Province, Afghanistan. The crash site is 130 kilometres (70 nmi) south west of Kabul, and near the village of Sado Khelo.[2][3] The Voice of America stated that all five people on board were killed.[4] The DoD only confirmed two fatalities recovered at the crash site.[5][6] Two Afghan locals died on the ground by impact of the crash.[1]

It was originally reported to be an aircraft of Ariana Afghan Airlines,[7][8] but the airline later ruled out this possibility, saying all its flights had been accounted for.[2] A spokesman for the United States military confirmed the identity of the aircraft involved in the accident, which occurred in an area controlled by the Taliban.[3] A Taliban spokesman said to Al-Arabiyah, that Taliban militias shot down the aircraft killing everyone on board, including high-ranking officials. However, these reports remain unconfirmed.

From: " 2020 United States Air Force E-11A crash "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_Air_Force_E-11A_crash
——

Why is this important?
——
"The Mysterious Michael D’Andrea: Was the C.I.A.’s Iran Mission Center Chief Shot Down?"

Last Monday a United States Air Force Bombardier E11A communications and intelligence gathering jet was either shot down or crashed in a remote mountainous region of Afghanistan. Almost immediately a story sourcing Taliban officials ran on Iranian State television claiming that the dead had included Michael D’Andrea, the chief of the Central Intelligence Agency (C.I.A.)’s special Iran task force, which goes by the name Iran Mission Center.

U.S. forces were hampered by weather, Taliban gunfire and terrain from reaching the site of the crash for more than 24 hours, and the lack of any kind of definitive commentary from Washington gave the story legs.

Article by: Philip Giraldi

Philip M. Giraldi is a former CIA counter-terrorism specialist and military intelligence officer who served nineteen years overseas in Turkey, Italy, Germany, and Spain. He was the CIA Chief of Base for the Barcelona Olympics in 1992 and was one of the first Americans to enter Afghanistan in December 2001.

https://ahtribune.com/us/3857-michael-dandrea.html
——

The man was likely hand picked by Trump/Mossad by his hardline on Iran and his expertise:

——
Mr. D’Andrea took over the agency’s Counterterrorism Center in early 2006 and spent the next nine years directing the hunt for militants around the world.

Operatives under his direction played a pivotal role in 2008 in the killing of Imad Mugniyah, the international operations chief for Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed Shiite militant group based in Lebanon. Working with the Israelis, the C.I.A. used a car bomb to kill Mr. Mugniyah as he walked home in Damascus, where Hezbollah enjoys strong ties with and support from the Syrian government.

At the same time, Mr. D’Andrea was ramping up the drone program inside Pakistan. Drones became the preferred counterterrorism tool of President Barack Obama, who personally approved strikes targeting militant leaders.

When Mr. D’Andrea took over as the counterterrorism chief, only a handful of the agency’s drones were operational in Pakistan, and there were only three strikes that year, according to the Long War Journal, which keeps a tally of drone activity. By 2010, when the drone campaign was at its height, the agency launched 117 strikes against Qaeda militants and other jihadists sheltering in the mountainous tribal areas that run along Pakistan’s northwestern border with Afghanistan.

From: "C.I.A. Names the ‘Dark Prince’ to Run Iran Operations, Signaling a Tougher Stance. By Matthew Rosenberg and Adam Goldman. June 2, 2017"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/02/world/middleeast/cia-iran-dark-prince-michael-dandrea.html
——

Veterans Today.
Sources: " Murderer of Soleimani killed with spy plane shot down over Afghanistan (warning/unpleasant photos/original report) Crew said to include CIA, NSA and high ranking military "
By Gordon Duff. January 29, 2020
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/01/29/vt-had-it-first-pentagons-top-spy-plane-downed-by-taliban-crypto-gear-docs-captured-warning-unpleasant-photos/

Vehicle was run by: "430th Expeditionary Electronic Combat Squadron"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/430th_Expeditionary_Electronic_Combat_Squadron

( "Expeditionary" means they go find stuff for black projects sometimes, yes? Who you gonna call? )

"Taliban Say Mystery Crash in Afghanistan Was US Aircraft"
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/01/27/taliban-say-mystery-crash-afghanistan-was-us-aircraft.html

Details about the system:
"Bringing Home the BACN to Front-Line Forces Jan 24, 2020"
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bringing-home-the-bacn-to-front-line-forces-05618/

"Can ‘Wi-Fi in the sky’ work outside of Afghanistan? "
By: Adam Stone   March 4, 2019
https://www.c4isrnet.com/it-networks/2019/03/04/can-wi-fi-in-the-sky-work-outside-of-afghanistan/

You have to be flying low around the mountainous cliff tops, for many missions to support "expedition" teams in such an hostile EM environment. Lots of strange signal sources to cap your signals or the complete lack of propagation without explanation.
Deep down in these caves in Afghanistan.

What is US doing in Afghanistan among other things?
Lot's of strange stories not only about their "expeditions, but even since the days of Alexandrian era.
Movie trailer: "The Objective"
https://youtu.be/C_tWv3eyHao

(Also available in full in Youtube for free. Do search and watch it)

Also here's a link for some NASA stuff which is totally irrelevant:
"Life on Enceladus | NASA's unexplained files"
https://youtu.be/xC5Brf2-TNY

(They got no eyes. What could they have? Everything else and more. They know you are there but you don't. Who needs eyes in a dark world anyway)

To paraphrase Bertold Brecht :

"The aim of science is not to open the door to everlasting truth, but to set a limit on everlasting terror."

Enjoy....

Posted by: Qparticle | Feb 8 2020 14:56 utc | 334

Naturally it's all lies and deception, of this we are assured by MSM, would they lie? I mean really!

The Debate @ presstv about the peace-loving mininukes that are intended to regain deterrence or diplomacy or sumptin'. Anyway obviously for the Good of All... the W76/2 - 5ky n-banger. How Jolly!


News / The Debate
US new nuclear weapon

By doctrine, as this has been stated by RU, the "deployment" (ain't milspeek grand!) by doctrine the launch of any SLBM from a US boat is going to "incline" the putative target set to liquidate the firing position asap.

What can go wrong...will go wrong, the boffin mathematicians tell me.

Posted by: Walter | Feb 8 2020 15:00 utc | 335

@donkeytale #334
Are you European?
The fact that Chinese have any type of pension and/or national health care at all, already puts them far above the average American.
Let's not forget that China is still much poorer than the US on a per-capita basis; average annual income is still in the $5K-$6K a year range. Just what do you expect the Chinese government to do in this situation?

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 8 2020 16:07 utc | 336

The Saker's written an outstanding essay, "Our fundamental disagreement about WWII, Hitler, Jews and race", which IMO is one of his ....

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 7 2020 22:09 utc | 309

Karlofi, unfortunately I do not have all the time in the world to follow such long exchanges or plan to get deeper into attempts to understand where peopöe come from. That's kinna hard anyway.

But would you be so kind to explain to me, if I am meant to understand that The Saker's "outstandin essay" is outstanding since it triggered this superb reply?

I am not a fan of the numbers game as to Jewish Russian percentages among the Bolsheviks. There were the Menshevik's and Bund after all. But I spent quite some time to look into matters. ... Curious, no doubt it surfaces, or seems to have surfaced, in a Putin speech in a very, very focussed context. The Schneerson library.

Would you be so kind to let me know, why this essay is superb from your perspective apart from the good old numbers game.

Yes, I have highly mixed feelings, apart from not all the time of the world, to dive into, more arbitrarily, The Saker's mental Orthodox vs Latin universe of history.

Posted by: Vig | Feb 8 2020 16:22 utc | 337

Ok, count me among the people at least partly irritated by "The Saker". The Saker translates to Hawk vs Dove anyway? And from his Florida home he pretends to be pro Russia, since he intends to become an Orthodox priest? ...

Just asking.

Posted by: Vig | Feb 8 2020 16:39 utc | 338

Sasha @257

Surprised to see you commenting on American popular culture, but I did understand the locus of your remarks. I'm not all that familiar with Kirk Douglas' life beyond the screen, and if his interests and efforts were in the same strain as what you mentioned here, our talking heads are sure not to mention any of it. Likewise I've seen several fast-moving scene excerpts from his career, none of them showing anything from "Paths of Glory." Perhaps if they did it would make "1917" look pathetic. Maybe that's unfair ('cause I haven't seen the latter,) but if the official intelligentsia of GB is gushing about it then I'm sure it's a gigantic POS.

Posted by: vinnieoh | Feb 8 2020 19:17 utc | 339

@Posted by: Qparticle | Feb 8 2020 14:56 utc | 335

As happens with all the "Q" phenomena ( related to missinfo operations by the Trump administration...so as to get elected or whitewash their dark ops...), good intent on whitewashing and justifying US long intervention in Afghanistan by the missdirecting intent made through such fantastic film, "The Objective", all the more with such background as being produced by the same people who produced the other crap film, just a guarantee...ahem... no doubt...

Everybody and their dogs knows at this point that the US is in Afghanistan to control the drugs international market ( which ends in final local branch at US patroniced narco-state of Colombia...) with which to finance the decaying and dying US Empire´s operations, while at the same time disrupting the OBOR project and more than natural and unavoidable connections between Iran and Afghanistan and of both with China.

Posted by: Sasha | Feb 9 2020 0:48 utc | 340

pretzelattack @ 307:

Nice repartee, man. I'm sure you're aware that the peninsula is what--5%?-- of the total area. Nothing whatever fascistic about reporting data, but if a correct conclusion is what one is after, it's important not to substitute a scoff or even wit for sound reasoning. Take any discrete area of the global warming argument and actively seek out the opposition's position. I think you'll find, as I did, that not only are the global warming arguments fed to us incorrect (not validated in fact), but they are dishonest.

If you don't know the opposition's arguments, then you don't know if you're correct.

Posted by: Penelope | Feb 9 2020 1:08 utc | 341

C1ue @ 337

Sorry did not mean to ignore you had to go away from the computer for awhile. No, I am an American and yes the US safety system is frayed and no I am not pro-empire nor anti-China. The rise of China was inevitable but let's not kid ourselves and each other what it means and what it portends for the future.


My expectation for China is basically the same as for any globalist capitalist society. There will be rising tides to lift all boats during the developmental growth phase and then the squeeze by the upper classes on the lower after the cycle reaches maturity.


China is rapidly evolving in the direction of financialization too and the society is also aging fast. Real estate accounts for a lot of the wealth inequality and much of the rest is in high tech and finance. And yes there is great disparity between the party participants there families and colleagues versus those outside the party..


The fake meme that the US wants to destroy China is good to rally the meme troops at MoA but has little basis in reality and there is nothing beyond Trupian and Pompeoan lies to indicate this is the case. China is a charter member of the multinational globalist caste.

The fact is the wealthiest American corporations and shareholders need China to elongate the imperialist era of enrichment and China complies happily. I don't expect anything different in the near term.


I am backing Sanders as a step forward and away from neoliberalism in the US. I don't know whether he wins in 2020 and even if he does I don't expect any change of consequence in the US before a generational shift perhaps inspired by Sanders transforms the political and economic fortunes of the bottom 90%.

Posted by: donkeytale | Feb 9 2020 1:13 utc | 342


Posted by: donkeytale | Feb 9 2020 1:13 utc | 343


where do you get this stuff from?

Posted by: jason | Feb 9 2020 1:53 utc | 343

donkeytale @ 343 says "The fake meme that the US wants to destroy China is good to rally the meme troops at MoA but has little basis in reality and there is nothing beyond Trupian and Pompeoan lies to indicate this is the case. China is a charter member of the multinational globalist caste."

Absolutely. Someone w a handle like "Clikkedkid" above says that China is different than the neoliberals cuz the State controls their banks, not vice versa.

In my view, the fact that China is permitted to expand its money supply to develop the country and its industries is proof that Chinese growth is fostered by the international Deep State. Growth of the money supply in most countries is limited to the monetary value of its exports. The exceptions are US, EU, Britain & China. This rule is enforced by withdrawing their membership in WTO, sanctions, war, etc.

Posted by: Penelope | Feb 9 2020 2:23 utc | 344

Below is a short Xinhuanet posting

"
AMMAN, Feb. 8 (Xinhua) -- The Arab Inter-Parliamentary Union (APU) on Saturday voiced its rejection of the U.S. Middle East peace plan announced by U.S. President Donald Trump, the state-run Petra news agency reported.

The remarks were made during the 30th emergency session of the APU, which convened representatives of 20 Arab countries in Amman, capital of Jordan.

At the meeting, Jordan's Lower House Speaker Atef Tarawneh said the Palestinian issue is facing its most difficult conditions, especially as the Israeli occupation is protected by the biased U.S..

Tarawneh, who is also APU president, called for forming an "Arab rejection front" that eliminates division and embraces unity.

He added that there will be no future for any solution that is rejected by Palestinians. He noted that no solution is viable without an independent Palestinian state on its national soil on the pre-1967 lines, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

Speaking during the event, Jordanian Prime Minister Omar Razzaz said the current conditions require constant coordination among the Arab states.

Chairman of the Palestinian National Council Salim Zanoun said that solutions mentioned under the U.S. deal are destructive and rejected as they neglect the right of return for Palestinian refugees and recognize Jerusalem in its entirety as a capital for Israel.
"

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 9 2020 5:59 utc | 345

Below is a link to a Xinhuanet posting with take away quote

News Analysis: Russia's balancing power warrants Syrian-Turkish equation in Idlib

The take away quote
"
It is worth noting that most of an estimated 50,000 to 70,000 rebel fighters concentrated in Idlib belong to radical groups which also have foreign fighters, mainly from the Caucasus.

These rebel fighters have no other place to go to as Idlib and nearby rural Aleppo are the last rebel-held areas in Syria.

The new deployment of Turkish forces in Idlib aims to "prevent the progress of the Syrian army," Haitham Hassoun, a retired brigadier, told Xinhua.
"

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 9 2020 6:13 utc | 346

@c1ue #332

Sorry, but your lack of statistical understanding is still failing you.

“Lack of statistical understanding”? Really? Where? It was you who have botched your back-of-the-envelope calculation by multiplying the entire population of Wuhan with a normal flu mortality rate, as if a normal flu would infect an entire population of a city in two weeks. I have corrected your mistake by applying a typical winter weekly incidence rate for a normal flu.

nCOV is new - thus unlike a normal flu, there are neither vaccine shots to reduce symptoms/increase immunity nor is there an existing population of partially/fully immune.

This proves my point that nCoV is not like a normal flu. You even say “unlike a normal flu” yourself.

Given this - the virus *will* spread just like any new flu, and people *will* get it sooner or later. Which means the mortality rate is all that matters - not the absolute numbers of people dying.

Exactly, which is why I’ve used Wuhan to demonstrate the relative numbers of people dying—relative to the total population of Wuhan. According to my very approximate calculation, a normal seasonal flu in Wuhan would have resulted in 15 deaths in two weeks, while nCoV, as we all know, has resulted in 400 deaths in two weeks.

The quarantine measures are to slow down its spread - no one with a lick of sense believes it will make nCOV disappear forever. Slowing down the spread will give time to create a vaccine, also will reduce the likelihood that a mutation into a more deadly form will occur. Or in other words, it is a tragedy but far from clear this is swine flu or anything really serious.

Wait, wait, wait. You’re moving the goalposts here. The initial claim by BM in his comment #157 was that this is all a complete non-story, that nCoV is “just a normal bog-standard flu and nothing more”, that “2019-nCoV is NOT a medical incident at all”, etc. I have replied to BM in my comment #191 that that’s not true. Here’s what I’ve said:

Saying that “2019-nCoV is NOT a medical incident at all” is just as nonsensical as claiming that it will wipe out all of humanity. Let’s be realistic, please.

How is that different from your take that “it is a tragedy but far from clear this is swine flu or anything really serious”? Do you agree with BM that “2019-nCoV is NOT a medical incident at all”? If you don’t, then why do you keep arguing with me?

You also ignore the reality that 88% of the deaths are men over 60 with a severe secondary condition like diabetes - a profile not too dissimilar with normal flu deaths.

Okay, now you’re just throwing in a random fact that has nothing to do with our discussion, then claim that I “ignore the reality”. Yes, both nCoV and a normal flu predominantly kill sick old men. So what? How is that relevant to our discussion? We were discussing the question of whether nCoV is “just a normal bog-standard flu” or not. Well, clearly, it’s not. It’s a new virus, there’s no immunity, no proven vaccine, and its mortality rate is currently much higher. So who is “ignoring the reality” here?

Step away from the crap internet news articles.

Apparently, you possess some supernatural clairvoyant abilities and can see what articles I’m reading. Or maybe you can provide an example of me posting a “crap internet news article” in this thread? You may not have noticed it, but I’ve actually debunked in my comment #196 a hoax article another commenter has posted earlier.

You really should drop your condescending tone and stop criticizing people for mistakes they haven’t made and lecturing them on things they understand perfectly well.

Posted by: S | Feb 9 2020 6:40 utc | 347

Syria's Idlib looks the only bright spot on the horizon. US Israel Turk backed jihadis seem to run for safer ground when Suheil al-Hassan is in the vicinity. Iraq folded like a bagfull of viagra deficient cocks.
New stuff on the horizon though as Trump has now got his nukes.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 9 2020 8:44 utc | 348

penelope, i've seen the fossil fuel horsecrap for almost 30 years. it's all bullshit. the fossil fuel industry has many times as much money as needed to finance a whole institute devoted to coming up with an alternative hypothesis. it never tried that. the industry's own scientists told them what was happening during the 80's. the only major study they helped finance, the BEST study, concluded the science was sound. anthony watts said beforehand he would accept the results; he didn't, because he is a paid shill.
the u.s. is a country run by big money. the fossil fuel companies are big money. they are not poor helpless victims of a few science nerds.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Feb 9 2020 9:46 utc | 349

Sasha | Feb 9 2020 0:48 utc | 341

The "anomalies" on Afghanistan are known since the Alexandrian era.

Here some more "anomalous" of same era stuff that made it to the famous Piri Reis map, which he claimed copied from ancient maps from Ptolemy. It is written right on the map itself in the legend. Despite that evidence even the wiki refferences some imaginary Colombus map as the source Reis worked on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map

Here is some more abomalous stuff from Ptolemaic era:

"Dendera Temple Hathor Egypt"
https://youtu.be/npnWAXUOLtI

Built from Ptolemus and continued by his daughter Cleopatra.
The specific room curved mural depicts human forms at the bottom, creatures depicted as giants of the days of Old towering over them holding a transparent jar containing luminus snakes and another even larger unidentified creature towering over everyone else at the right holding a Minoan symbol broken in half in each hand. This is the right wall mural.

Do you want to also an ancient ballistic warhed the Russians copied in perfection to create their EVAs for their space programe?

He he he!

Posted by: Qparticle | Feb 9 2020 11:09 utc | 350

@S #348
You said

“Lack of statistical understanding”? Really? Where? It was you who have botched your back-of-the-envelope calculation by multiplying the entire population of Wuhan with a normal flu mortality rate, as if a normal flu would infect an entire population of a city in two weeks. I have corrected your mistake by applying a typical winter weekly incidence rate for a normal flu.

Sorry, but your ignorance continues to display itself.
1) nCOV is a new disease. It means it will infect a higher percentage of a population than your standard existing coronavirus or rhinovirus flu - because people who catch the existing diseases get a short term immunity from their experience. nCOV, being new, doesn't have this 2nd order limitation.
2) Relative mortality is higher in the beginning stages of a new disease than later on, because the weaker people die faster. The fact that 88% of deaths, as of a few days ago, were men over 60 with a severe existing health problem is a big tell.
3) The retesting and reclassification of pneumonia cases due to the availability of a newly developed nCOV test means early data is skewed.

You said:

This proves my point that nCoV is not like a normal flu. You even say “unlike a normal flu” yourself.

Sadly, your powers of logic and reason are as poor as your statistical understanding. "unlike a normal flu" applies to the green field nature of the population. It does not automatically also apply to its death rate. You are attacking the official death rates without providing any form of credible counterdata, or demonstrating any form of credible knowledge or experience.

You said:

Exactly, which is why I’ve used Wuhan to demonstrate the relative numbers of people dying—relative to the total population of Wuhan. According to my very approximate calculation, a normal seasonal flu in Wuhan would have resulted in 15 deaths in two weeks, while nCoV, as we all know, has resulted in 400 deaths in two weeks.

Now you're just repeating yourself - taking a skewed data set, improperly assuming a magical mass infection rate even with province wide travel bans, then multiplying incorrectly the mortality numbers associated with already severely at risk, unhealthy people to an entire city. Fail.

You said:

Wait, wait, wait. You’re moving the goalposts here. The initial claim by BM in his comment #157 was that this is all a complete non-story, that nCoV is “just a normal bog-standard flu and nothing more”, that “2019-nCoV is NOT a medical incident at all”, etc. I have replied to BM in my comment #191 that that’s not true. Here’s what I’ve said:

Saying that “2019-nCoV is NOT a medical incident at all” is just as nonsensical as claiming that it will wipe out all of humanity. Let’s be realistic, please.

How is that different from your take that “it is a tragedy but far from clear this is swine flu or anything really serious”? Do you agree with BM that “2019-nCoV is NOT a medical incident at all”? If you don’t, then why do you keep arguing with me?


You are trying to converge 2 different threads here - I have zero interest in playing your game. My statements stand on their own and I make zero claim - positive or negative - with whatever BM said.

You said:

Okay, now you’re just throwing in a random fact that has nothing to do with our discussion, then claim that I “ignore the reality”. Yes, both nCoV and a normal flu predominantly kill sick old men. So what? How is that relevant to our discussion? We were discussing the question of whether nCoV is “just a normal bog-standard flu” or not. Well, clearly, it’s not. It’s a new virus, there’s no immunity, no proven vaccine, and its mortality rate is currently much higher. So who is “ignoring the reality” here?

Evidently you are even more ignorant than I first thought.
If a disease only kills people that are almost dead already, it is not a high mortality disease because those people are dying anyway.
If nCOV was primarily killing healthy young adults (like the 1918 flu) or the very young and very old (like regular flu), the mortality demographics would be dramatically different than the demographic composition of nCOV deaths to date, noted above.

But in your haste to determine the nCOV is going to be the end of all things, you are ignoring relevant counterfactual data. That's on you.

Apparently, you possess some supernatural clairvoyant abilities and can see what articles I’m reading. Or maybe you can provide an example of me posting a “crap internet news article” in this thread? You may not have noticed it, but I’ve actually debunked in my comment #196 a hoax article another commenter has posted earlier.
I don't need supernatural abilities to read the poorly reasoned, poorly thought through and poorly grounded arguments you present.
You really should drop your condescending tone and stop criticizing people for mistakes they haven’t made and lecturing them on things they understand perfectly well.
No, I think I'll keep pointing out all the ways by which your statements are wrong because you still keep making the same mistakes - and are doubling down in your refusal to re-examine them.

Furthermore, your misinformed beliefs - expressed publicly - cause a visible public harm by reinforcing a false MSM meme of nCOV holocaust.

If you're going to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater, don't be shocked if you get drenched by water.

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 9 2020 13:10 utc | 351

@pretzelattack #350
The problem you have is that you don't recognize climate panicmongering as "big money", either.
I've noted several times now that the top 4 environmental NGOs have a larger collective budget than the entire fossil fuel industry annual PR spend.
There are literally tens and hundreds of thousands of people who make their living directly from climate hysteria. And while there are hundreds of thousands of people who make their living from reaping fossil fuels - their output is a physical product which produces value.
Thus the Axelrod/Plouffe style finger pointing sounds good, but actually is meaningless - particularly when the big money is clearly on the panicmongering side. For example, a significant part of the environmental NGO budgets are ... donations from fossil fuel companies like Shell.
I actually believe in being environmentally aware - the difference is that I don't buy the shill from those paying (and being paid) to push a specific agenda, nor am I interested or mindful of the liberal oligarchy's herd mentality.

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 9 2020 13:17 utc | 352

And more climate fun: the economic crap models pointing to economic catastrophe due to global warming have always been puzzling to me.
Cold kills far more people than heat.
All things being equal, a higher global temperature should mean less dead people = less economic damage.

Furthermore, air conditioning is more a luxury than a necessity - unlike heat.

Given this, why do the economic models not take into account reduced energy expenditures due to higher global temperatures?

Well, it seems that at least some researchers asked this question as well:
Higher temperatures mean higher GDP historically, study


Integrated Assessment Models (IAM) approximately reproduce the projections from the Global Climate Models (GCM) and apply impact functions to estimate the economic impacts of global warming. The impact functions are derived from and calibrated to what the developers assess are the most suitable studies of the impacts. The impact functions require many assumptions, including projections of population, gross domestic product (GDP), per capita income, elasticities and technology progress in energy provision.

Various studies conclude that the impact functions (also called damage functions) used in the IAMs are derived from inadequate empirical data.

...

The striking change in trend of the energy impact at the turn of the century inspired this study. The trend was positive as GMST increased by 0.61 °C during the 20th century but FUND projects it will be substantially negative for the 21st century as GMST is projected to increase further. That is, whereas the observations for 1900–2000 show the impacts were positive, FUND projects continued global warming would have negative impacts for the global economy.

Contrary to the FUND energy projection for the period 2000–2100, the US Energy Information Administration (EIA) empirical data appear to indicate that global warming would reduce US energy expenditure and, therefore, contribute positive economic impacts for the USA. The paper infers that the impacts of global warming on the US economy may be indicative of the impacts on the global economy.

If the economic impact of energy is near zero or positive, and if the total of the sectoral projections in Figure 1, other than for energy consumption, is approximately correct, global warming would be beneficial up to around 3 °C relative to 2000, and 4 °C relative to pre-industrial times. The significance of these findings for climate policy is substantial. For instance, policies that aim to reduce global warming would not be economically justifiable. Therefore, the economic impact of energy consumption projected in Tol, and by FUND3.9, warrants investigation if FUND is to be used for policy.


Posted by: c1ue | Feb 9 2020 13:47 utc | 353

@ Posted by: c1ue | Feb 9 2020 13:47 utc | 354

The problem with climate change is not death related to climate, but with agriculture. Even 1C variations can wipe out agriculture in entire latitudes (e.g. if global temperatures rise 1C, the entire coffee production in Brazil will be wiped out; it would be needed for it to be transferred to Santa Catarina state, from São Paulo state). We will die of hunger long before we're going to the beach in Siberia.

That's why those environmentalists are preaching for electric cars. Electric cars pollute more than petrol cars, but emmit less CO2. You're exchanging localized soil and water pollution from heavy metals (because of the production of lithium batteries for the cars) for world agriculture.

Posted by: vk | Feb 9 2020 14:03 utc | 354

@vk #355
Your statement is, on its face, nonsensical.
The overall global temperature increase since the Little Ice Age time-local minimum, according to the "science", is 1 degree C.
Thus the entire Brazilian coffee crop should have long since been wiped out since coffee first started growing in Brazil in 1727.
Secondly, the average daily swing in temperatures in Brazil is 15 degrees C. There are regular seasons where the average temperature that year can be 1 degree C higher than "normal".
FAIL.

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 9 2020 16:33 utc | 355

the problem, c1ue, is you don't recognize that being an engineer doesn't make you an expert in science. cold may kill more people now, including cold caused by climate change, but the many changes we have seen the past decades show that now is not tomorrow. you change the rules as often as anthony watts, the ex tv weatherman, who is still blogging despite the dismal failure of the BEST study to support his shilling.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Feb 9 2020 16:42 utc | 356

@ Posted by: c1ue | Feb 9 2020 16:33 utc | 356

I'm talking about global temperatures, not regional ones.

Yes, technically, we're still in an ice age (there's still permanent ice in at least one pole, so it's still an ice age). All ice ages eventually come to an end. The planet will eventually get (much warmer). Nobody disputes that.

The question is: are humans accelerating (by a lot) this inevitable process? This is an important question, because it may be the difference of we having 50 years to adapt or 350,000 years. 345,000 can - and often are - the difference between the survival and the extinction of a species. Yes, some species go extinct with climate change no matter how much time they have to adapt - but we humans have technology. But technology requires antecipation, which requires time (the more, the better).

The Earth will get warmer. The discussion among the serious climate scientists is in which amount of time it will happen and, if it is accelerating because of human activity (anthropogenic heat), if we should take action to curb it (or not).

Posted by: vk | Feb 9 2020 21:33 utc | 357

@pretzelattack #357
Being an engineer who has created industry scale models means I understand what modeling can and cannot do.
Furthermore, as someone who has experienced, first hand, the difference between theory and reality - I am far more able to differentiate between bullshit and possible truth.
You, on the other hand, do nothing but repeat ridiculous agitprop which isn't even original.

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 10 2020 0:32 utc | 358

@vk #358
Actually, we are not in an Ice Age - we are in an intermediary period. The Little Ice Age is called "little" for a reason.
All things being equal - we are far more likely to see temperatures go down globally from natural causes/cycles than up.
As for temperature increases: I've put up many articles and links which talk specifically to your question.
Will temperatures go up? Yes
Will temperatures go up 4 degrees C or more? Extremely unlikely. I only say impossible because the reality is that no one really knows.
Will temperatures go up 2 degrees C or more? Possibly. Possibly not. The maximum CO2 level achievable from fossil fuels is not going to double from today's level. If so, even a 4 degree ECS means we may or may not see another 2 degrees C.
If ECS is 2 or less - which is what the actual historical record of the past 50-100 years show, then temperature increases from this point on will be 1 degree.
1 degree or even 2 degrees is not unusual. This is Medieval Warm Period/Roman Warm period. It is not the end of the planet, of species or of humans.
Nor are catastrophes going up - neither flood nor drought, hurricane or tornado.
The serious climate scientists would be a lot more believable if:
1) They have not been wrong for literally 20+ years.
2) They spend more time on twitter than on science
3) They weren't openly political

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 10 2020 0:39 utc | 359

PretzelAttack @ 350:

You are right that the US is a country run by big money. This includes the global warming hypothesis. The Senate Report The Environmental Chain of Command establishes that a group of billionaires and their foundations determine the entire movement. It shows the astronomical amounts of money given in just one short period & the means by which the policy positions of the environmental groups are controlled from the top. The source for the amounts given is IRS records. Their control of the EPA and of grantmaking is thoroughly documented.

I'm sure it's apparent to you that the media supports the gw hypothesis. Who do you think owns the media? In the 70's there were more than 200 media companies. Today there are only SIX substantial media companies and two of those are owned by the same parent. The boards of directors of these companies hire the top executives & thus control -- among other things-- propaganda for the gw hypothesis.

The propaganda is effective in part because it offers you a moral plum: It says that if you believe this you're a good person. Don't buy it; it can never be good to fiddle w the truth, especially when you don't know the ultimate purpose for which the lie is told.

Posted by: Penelope | Feb 10 2020 4:19 utc | 360

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