Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 26, 2020

2020 Presidential Election Thread 01

This thread is exclusively for comments on the 2020 presidential election.

Posted by b on February 26, 2020 at 14:53 UTC | Permalink

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DNC platform: Anybody except Trump (or Sanders).

Posted by: Noah Way | Feb 26 2020 14:58 utc | 1

OK.
Start 'bitching' boyz & girlz.
Thanks *b'.
X-

Posted by: Veritas X- | Feb 26 2020 15:05 utc | 2

Puttin and Bloomberg bombed.
SAA and Sanders are advancing.
Colums of refugees flee angry Sanders supporters.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 26 2020 15:07 utc | 3

Really good initiative mr B, to have a separate, dedicated discussion thread for this tiresome discussions. One side yelling out their belief in Bernie the Messiah and the other side bashing him for not being a true Leninist or whatever.

Now all we need is a separate thread for conspiracy theories concering the moon landings, instead of letting them take over the discussions about the Corona virus...

Posted by: Dave the Wade | Feb 26 2020 15:10 utc | 4

This discussion is frankly irrelevant. Trump is assured of re-selection because he's appeased the only two constituencies that matter: the military industrial complex and the zionist lobby. The theatrics over Burnie et al is just so the Daymockratic Party gang can have something to hold together over until a suitably servile Daymockrat is selected in 2024.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Feb 26 2020 15:24 utc | 5

A spectre is haunting the Democratic Party — the spectre of Bernie Sanders. All the powers of the Old Guard have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Bill and Hillary, Obama and Michelle, Neo-liberals and the mainstream media.

Posted by: Seamus Padraig | Feb 26 2020 15:37 utc | 6

Once Sanders wins Super Tuesday, then we'll have to hear about the mismatch, Trump vs Sanders for the rest of the year. Sanders will easily defeat Trump. Trump has done nothing for Americans, or anyone else besides Israel and Saudi Arabia.

For me, shows like Jimmy Dore's and The Hill's Rising, are becoming unwatchable with constantly pointing out what's being said on TV. We already know what they'll say on TV, so nothing is surprising. Sadness, banality and boredom sets in. Two imperialists running against each other for the power of Executive Order on foreign policy and veto power in the U.N., is depressing to actual leftists

Posted by: SharonM | Feb 26 2020 15:39 utc | 7

good one Piotr!

Posted by: douglass truth | Feb 26 2020 15:42 utc | 8

@4 Dave the Wade

Oh, and here I thought this was the place where pizzagate got wings on any thread? Yes, Trump will reluctantly respond to CoronaV, but secretly, he's still hoping for an extension to his Ziofascist rule.

Now back to getting rid of the fascist parasite....

BERNIE IS THE ONLY CANDIDATE THAT WILL DEFEAT TRUMP IN NOVEMBER

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out, Dave.

Later, Obama’s top advisers, some of whom are now highly skeptical of Sanders, proudly pointed to that moment as a turning point in the campaign that highlighted Obama’s willingness to stand up to the kind of national security conventional wisdom that led Democrats to take misguided hawkish positions on issues like Iraq.

They are much further to the left than the Obama crew, but the group of progressive foreign policy advisers around Sanders define themselves by their willingness to defy the certitudes of Washington’s foreign policy establishment, which they derisively call “the blob,” and Sanders made it clear he will not apologize for his Cold War heresies.

It might be a good bet. The Obama opening to Cuba was in 2014 (and since reversed by Donald Trump). Castro died in 2016. It’s true that Florida’s older Cuban-American community, which remains politically influential, is deeply unfriendly to politicians who focus on Castro’s literacy programs at the expense of his crimes. But the idea that it’s politically deadly in 2020 to articulate a more nuanced assessment of the communist dictator’s reign than what was politically acceptable during the Cold War and its aftermath is dubious.

No Bernie Slayer Emerges

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 15:48 utc | 9

Once Sanders wins Super Tuesday, then we'll have to hear about the mismatch, Trump vs Sanders for the rest of the year. Sanders will easily defeat Trump. SharonM | Feb 26 2020 15:39 utc

Sanders has weaknesses too. It seems that his movement can intimidate Democratic establishment in the case of brokered convention, there is no distinct personality to oppose him, a person selected against him would be doomed against Trump, leading to a backlash in the ranks if Democrats, a major headache to the establishment. One can worry about the intellectual caliber of people around him. They are not THAT BAD, but...

I was a bit disappointed by reading that Sanders surrendered his pro-gun record. That can cost him several states in the Fall elections. Even so, Trump has weaknesses that can be exploited if you are not mentally deranged by the Russian angle.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 26 2020 15:57 utc | 10

Alas, I must carry this over from previous Open...it's that important.

@432 Jackrabbit

Damn you Jackrabbit! Do you think Palestinians have the luxury of waiting for your FICTIONAL pure candidate and fictional pure party that the majority of brainwashed Americans can accept???

Do you think brainwashed Americans are ready to vote as a majority for anyone who condemns Israel? Ilhan Omar is lucky if she is re-elected in the most anti-Zionist district in the country!

Would you wait for that ILLUSION if you were suffering as deeply as Palestinians???

You are intellectually DISHONEST. Until you HONESTLY answer those questions you appear like nothing more than an anti-Semitic troll who hates Bernie for being a Jew!

Did you not read the link to Mondoweiss in my post in which Palestinian American activists admit Bernie is not their ideal candidate, but is better than anyone viable up to now and the harm to Palestinians of Americans not voting for him is so great they must seize this opportunity hopeful that Bernie's deep sense of justice will bring justice for them.

Who are you to stand in the way of the only hope to come along for a suffering millions of people??! You disgust me! Stop with your sick and irrational anti-Bernie rants!

Your hatred eclipses all compassion!

Read the damn article: Palestinian Americans Bernie Sanders

and quit trolling!

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 13:46 utc | 434
▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪▪
@440 SharonM

So in other words, you're self-righteous SELF is saying we should all just ignore the fact that Palestinians are hoping Bernie wins, their American activist counterparts are fighting for Bernie to win, but YOU, from your comfortably numb existance, know better what's right for a nation suffering extreme oppression and whose pain is multiplied under Trump???

👎🤬

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 15:14 utc | 445

Don't think you can avoid answering my questions by running to a new thread!

You're not wiggling out of this; I'm waiting...

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 16:11 utc | 11

@ Noah Way 1

Yep. From “anybody but Bush” to “anybody but Sanders”. That’s what the strategy of “lesser” of the two evils brings. Way to go Sheeple.

Posted by: Nathan Mulcahy | Feb 26 2020 16:17 utc | 12

Circe | Feb 26 2020 16:11 utc |

I have never insulted your intelligence, nor, I am entirely sure, even your delusions, or any other characteristic of yours - only criticized your rudeness and your memory.

Please knock off the rudeness. It undermines you, nobody else.

I applaud Berner getting the seat overwatching the ruins..

Posted by: Walter | Feb 26 2020 16:22 utc | 13

@12 Nathan Mulcahy

Because YOU know better what's good for a nation of millions of suffering Palestinians who Trump is stomping on.
Sheeple, riiight! Easy for you to cynically thumb your nose at their pain and call their hope with Sanders: the sheeple's lesser EVIL!

Dang, you can cut the apathy with a knife!

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 16:34 utc | 14

Posted by: Noah Way | Feb 26 2020 14:58 utc | 1:

DNC platform: Anybody except Trump (or Sanders).
********

Indeed, many of the narrative managers who have spent four years decrying Trump as the nadir will prove ready to switch to “he’s not so bad” compared to Sanders.

But the operative truth for these people is far more chilling: it’s not so much “anybody but Trump, except Sanders”. Rather, more accurately it’s: “Nobody over Trump, except our tiny roster of pre-selected candidates. No one else need apply.”

Posted by: David G | Feb 26 2020 16:39 utc | 15

Piotr’s comment was snarktacular, which, for me, is the best we can hope for in a thread on this subject. :-)

Posted by: oglalla | Feb 26 2020 16:43 utc | 16

@10 Piotr Berman

The thing is, Sanders won't do his russiagate poop very much against Trump. Remember, Trump is so easy to beat that even Hillary beat him in the popular. Sanders came from the left, and moved right, so he has many many ways to criticize Trump. The other Dems--Hillary, Biden, Buttigeig, etc., only know how to criticize Trump from the right. Sanders will just point out that billionaires suck, the rich/poor system sucks, and debt relief for Americans with bills coming in every month is good--it's language that Americans understand a lot more now than a couple decades ago. And there's this myth that Trump destroys people with his tweets, press conferences, and debates. He makes fun of people who are well-known to be pathetic anyway. His supporters will hang onto the "Bernie is a commie" meme, while awaiting Trump to make that meme more popular. And they'll just keep waiting because it's transparently silly to anyone but a far right winger. And there's just not enough votes in that, in my view;)

Posted by: SharonM | Feb 26 2020 16:47 utc | 17

Trump will probably win.

However, I would say the truly interesting thing is contained in the following web pages. Don't miss it!!!

Elizabeth Warren Will Likely Win the Democratic Nomination -- by Eric Zuesse

Here Are The Billionaires Funding The Democratic Presidential Candidates

Very interesting prediction!

Posted by: blues | Feb 26 2020 16:47 utc | 18

@13 Walter

I kinda think that the urgency of the moment on so many levels, dire understandable despair of many in pain, climatic existential threat, besides getting rid of the manic Ziofascist in the White house calls for a little rudeness-oblige when the cynicism and cruel apathy is as THICK AS MELASSES, dontcha think???

And FYI, people who get it have literally applauded me for it! Sometimes a good bitchslap is necessary and very effective.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 16:47 utc | 19

ALSO!!!

A referendum is going to be on the ballot to institute ranked choice voting (RCV) in my US state of Massachusetts. If it is approved (as it already has been in the state of Maine), the people will slowly (over a few election cycles) come to realize that democracy has been completely removed.

Soon I will complete my really great cure for this electoral virus on my blog, which is dedicated to addressing this issue.

Posted by: blues | Feb 26 2020 17:00 utc | 20

Hmmm...I'm starting to think that my argument @11 is KRYPTONITE for rabbits and other cynical, Bernie-naysayer fauna.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 17:00 utc | 21

Yes, please confine Bernie live-speaking tour announcements, etc. To this thread. Thanks, b.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Feb 26 2020 17:03 utc | 22

@18 blues

The legion of Bernie supporters can't wait to punch the Democratic establishment in the nose on Super Tuesday, and that goes double for the fascist racist wing that follows after the Nomination.

Bernie's gonna CRUSH Trump.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 17:07 utc | 23

As an Australian (born and raised), and as my nation has been (at least since the soft coup of 1975. Thank you USA/UK..sarc.) effectively states 51 through 58 respectively, I feel that I have the right to weigh-in with my ill-informed opinion...

For what it is worth, I'd forgive Bernie Sanders his shortcomings and vote for him. If he wins (and I truly hope he does) I think it will be the biggest shake-up in US politics this side of WWII. The USA needs that as a nation, regardless of how well it actually pans out.

He is no savior, but is a necessary catalyst to try and disrupt the steady flow of the nation down the proverbial shit-chute. He is a stepping-stone to a better outcome than the current scam, so good on him and good luck.

If all else fails, he can always renounce his citizenship, become an Australian citizen, and run for office here. We are in a dire need of some new leadership in the antipodes too.

Jon

Posted by: Jon_in_AU | Feb 26 2020 17:07 utc | 24

My goodness, that Circe thing is an arrogant moron. It's like having a David Brock kind of thing throwing up in threads. The type of fanatic that takes focus from their candidate and puts a burning spotlight on them.

Posted by: SharonM | Feb 26 2020 17:12 utc | 25

You people who are contemplating voting for any of these clowns are just delusional. Even Gabbard is likely to turn into another "Change You Can Believe In" BS artist, not that she has a snowball's chance in hell of getting the nomination or being selected as a running mate by any of the other clowns.

Sanders? Seriously? How did "Change You Can Believe In" Obama work out for you? He ruined four more countries than Bush did (Ukraine, Libya, Syria, Yemen.) Go over to Colonel Lang's blog and read his list of things that Sanders is alleged to have said as policy statements. Lang thinks Sanders is a delusional lunatic, and while I may actually agree with some of Sanders' policy statements listed, the odds of *any* of that actually happening is zero and probably would be a disaster in execution if it did happen.

As so many others have prognosticated, the United States is over. Done. Put a fork in it. The only question is how much damage will it do as it falls and whether it will go out with a bang - as in WWIII - or a whimper as in economic collapse and/or a civil war.

Voting for *anyone* ain't gonna change any of that.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Feb 26 2020 17:20 utc | 26

Posted by: Jon_in_AU | Feb 26 2020 17:07 utc | 24:

If all else fails, [Sanders] can always renounce his citizenship, become an Australian citizen, and run for office here. We are in a dire need of some new leadership in the antipodes too.
********

And you still have a Governor General to fire him if he actually shows any.

Posted by: David G | Feb 26 2020 17:26 utc | 27

Circe @11

Once again you go overboard, attempting to browbeat the moa bar into a Bernie-worshiping frenzy. IMO you undermine Bernie by making trying to make him into a cult figure and discredit yourself with over-the-top emotional appeals.

My comment @432 acknowledges and appreciates Bernie's FULL support for Palestinian "rights and security". Sharon @440 correctly points out that it is late-in-coming.

That doesn't mean that Bernie isn't the best candidate in the Primary race. It just means that some of us valid concerns and our support is conditional.

And that is only logical. Because Bernie's response to the undermining of his campaign/insurgency is weak because he's tied his hands by making 'Party unity' paramount. And we are further informed by Obama's faux populist hucksterism and Bernie's 2016 sheep-dogging.

If you really wanted to help Bernie you would spend your time at places frequented by women, LGBT, minority voters, and elderly voters. The Democratic Party strategy is to use identity politics to attract voters away from Bernie. But you're at moa instead, a small international affairs site.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2020 17:29 utc | 28

@28 Jackrabbit

Someone like you on an endless Bernie spam-hate-fest is trying to poison opinion. You could care less that he is the candidate of Palestinian activists and the candidate Palestinians everywhere are hoping wins.

@25 SharonM

That doesn't answer my question, now does it?

HYPOCRITES!

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 17:47 utc | 29

Weasel Mayo Pete Buttigieg has no path to victory, so now he's desperately resorting to one of his last schemes in the Butthead Weaselry Playbook: COURTING THE SUPERDELEGATES WITH HIS FEAR-MONGERING ABOUT BERNIE BEING BAD FOR DOWN-BALLOT CANDIDATES.

Idiot.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 17:55 utc | 30

Darn Russians made people pay $1750 to $3200 to attend the debates last night and clap for Bloomberg. The Russians also aired a long Bloomberg informercial and an anti-Medicare for All commercial during the ad breaks - to divide us. Putin will stop at nothing.

Posted by: SteveR | Feb 26 2020 18:03 utc | 31

Thanks you Circe for all you do supporting Bernie. He's going all the way.

Posted by: Chas | Feb 26 2020 18:04 utc | 32

Much of the establishment handwringing over Sanders reflects unease that his reformist concepts are part of the debate at all.

Calling out Netanyahoo as a racist on network television? Fantastic and necessary. It’s less about the messenger than the message. Popular movements can be sparked and gain momentum by emperor has no clothes moments. Sanders has a tough streak and the establishment has pissed him off enough that he is as unpredictable in stated opinion as Trump was four years ago. That’s a plus for all Americans.

Posted by: jayc | Feb 26 2020 18:12 utc | 33

Success for you, Bernie! Fuck off the neolibs and privatizers of all corners.
Return entire Guantanamo to the legitimate owners, cubans, without preconditions. Only condition: sittin. Buil again at a negotiating table.
Create the american NHS health service (ask for Canadians's advice)
build new road and save the crumbling bridges coast to coast. Sit down with the chinese and negotiate a program to import from AFrica: cotton, manioc and soy in huge quantities: this alone will ramp up their growth and trim down immigration as never before!(EU will follow suit otherwise their purchasing prices will skyrocket). Stop the stupidity to make Moscow and Peking to unite and collude as never before in History.

Posted by: augusto | Feb 26 2020 18:12 utc | 34

Until the US - meaning we the people - get money out of politics - think Citizens United as one big example - whomever is elected President is beholden to donors in every major sector of our economy. Follow the money. This includes Bernie. See this at-a-glance link regarding Bernie's voting record on foreign policy up through 2016. It is not a pretty picture. https://www.stpete4peace.org/bernie-hillary

Both parties are corrupted.

I understand how Americans want to believe that a president can solve our many ills. We want to believe that the government is for the people, by the people. And the deck is very stacked against people coming to understand the real truth of the US government, be it corporate media, education, entertainment, etc. Government narrative managers are their overseers. It is legal now to propagandize Americans.

So bless Bernie supporters hearts, for wanting a democracy, a republic, a constitutionally sound country. I do too. Yet unless we the people come together - really unite - and uniting is also something narrative controllers do their best to prevent - it is not going to change and is only getting worse.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 26 2020 18:13 utc | 35

@29 Circe

"25 SharonM
That doesn't answer my question, now does it?"

You read as just a fanatic projecting shit that you're filled with on other people. You don't have questions, you have commands--just like a Hillary supporter from 2016, just like an authoritarian. Jackrabbit said you should talk to women, who don't support Bernie, I'm assuming?, but I'm a woman, and I'd tell you to fuck off if you tried to get my vote for your candidate.
This is a website that is clearly against imperialism, and analyzes international news and propaganda. I think Alternet is where you can find your own special bathroom.

Posted by: SharonM | Feb 26 2020 18:13 utc | 36

In the South Carolina debate last night, Bloomberg attacked Sanders by saying the Russians wanted him to win the nomination because Trump would beat him easily. What a two-fer! How many more years will we be blessed with fables about those dastardly Russians and their omnipotent control of US elections?

Posted by: Dabooda | Feb 26 2020 18:13 utc | 37

Why oh why would I waste my vote on these Democratic/Republican pseudo-fascists when I can vote for the only candidate promising me a free pony !!...I present the next President of the United States:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermin_Supreme

Posted by: Gregory | Feb 26 2020 18:23 utc | 38

@38 Gregory

How's he going to pay for the ponies when most taxes will go to time traveling studies and zombie apocalypse defense? But brushing your teeth certainly will appeal to the middle class;)

Posted by: SharonM | Feb 26 2020 18:33 utc | 39

Thank you, b, for segregating the political emphasis in this thread. In the interest of continuing to look at Dr. Hudson's latest important essay - I'll just note that karlof1 provided a link in the previous open thread @ 388. And from karlof1's comment I will repost this paragraph:

"...Dr. Hudson provides some excellent prose in detailing our dilemma while showing this isn't the first time. As do many of us, he sees it quite likely Milwaukee 2020 could become Chicago 1968. And like many of us, he sees our dilemma as a quandary, not as a problem--the difference is huge: the latter has a solution, the former doesn't..."

My own comment in that thread was simply that many of us also were hesitant to support Bernie because of what seemed to be his foreign policy obtuseness. And I would comment to Circe that her inflammatory remarks and accusations don't help. She is far better when she educates us on Bernie's actual statements of policy, particularly if they are different from what we know Democratic politicians in general support. I am now speaking of all who have left the Democratic party (I am one) because of those policies. These are a big chunk of wouldbe voters you ought to be informing rather than castigating, Circe! And really, you need to point out instances where his public comments are counter to the above impression.

I had to wade through an unenlightening series of comments at nakedcapitalism's report on last night's debate to find some brief remarks which I will post next that seem to counter that impression. Back shortly.

Posted by: juliania | Feb 26 2020 18:53 utc | 40

I have spent 16 years (since 2004) trying to figure out how deal with the spoiler effect -- or put much more relevantly, 'elite fronted party lock-in'. Understand that you may have a government comprised of 100 parties, but there will nonetheless be no democracy at all if they are all 'elite fronted' and ultimately controlled, no matter what policies they superficially promote. This is the nature of the lock-in effect.

Right now, thousands of intellectually sophisticated fools are trying to promote totally lock-in prone election systems such as ranked choice voting (RCV/IRV). These system will leave the voters just as party locked-in as they are with the choose-one system they have now. This is largely due to their requirement for extreme tabulationary opacity, and also extremely high information traffic.

Presently, the best cure for this is 'simple positional voting', which I promote as 'ranked simple voting' (which sophisticated fools often confuse with the quite similar, yet far more unobviously complicated 'Borda method'). It uses precisely the same ballot design as RCV, so voters can simply check-off a box to indicate by which method they prefer their ballot to be tabulated.

The ranked ballots reflect the pattern: =/ 10 > 9 > 8 > ... 1 > 0 /=. There are ten ranked 'places', and voters can assign one candidate to each place, and each candidate assigned to a 'place' will be granted a corresponding number of 'points' (and they can also leave places blank if they prefer). Putting it very simplistically, the candidate with the largest total of points wins. And it turns out that it is quite easy to fairly combine the results of this ranked simple voting (RSV) with those of ranked choice voting. Eventually all the voters will abandon RCV and all its unobvious complexity.

This is what people need to support!

As for poor Circe and dear Bernie, the poor chap has no chance. The best way to support Bernie is to buy one of those billion dollar lottery tickets at the corner market, and contribute the proceeds to the Bernie campaign. I am totally serious. This morning I received my third expensive, super-glossy mailing from the Michael Bloomberg campaign (Money raised: $200.4 million -- from himself!). Very sorry to bear such grim tidings! But you could still direct your support to ranked simple voting. If we had that, somebody even better than Bernie would run, and win. Think about it.

Ranked Simple Voting Is The Answer

Posted by: blues | Feb 26 2020 19:08 utc | 41

To my thoughs @40 above:

I scrolled through the NC debate comments to about two-thirds down, to find a clear positive on Bernie's remarks:

nippersmom: "Great comment from Bernie on US overthrowing governments around the world."

23 comments later, this:

"Bill Carson
February 25, 2020 at 9:42 pm
Finally—-Bernie just knocked it out of the park with his answer on Israel.

Reply ↓
nippersmom
February 25, 2020 at 9:43 pm
Thank you, Bernie, for not backing down on your criticism of Israel.

Reply ↓
CarlH
February 25, 2020 at 9:44 pm
Bernie drops truth bomb never heard in a debate before about Israel/Palestine. Finally some truth on this issue!

Reply ↓
Darius
February 25, 2020 at 9:46 pm
Also mentioned overthrowing Mossadegh in Iran and Allende in Chile. Wow."

Pretty important stuff, which we have discussed on this forum at length - I would say foreign policy issues being the most important to posters here. Yet even on a pro Bernie forum like Naked Capitalism, the negativity thrown at the Sanders campaign is almost insurmountable.

Some actual physical repression occurred at the l968 Democratic Convention. Young people were attacked in the hall and on the street. I'm not one of those who say 'pass the popcorn.' But perhaps instead of outrage against the inevitable, there ought to be counter moves being considered. One came up, one comment among many at the above quoted discussion - somebody asked if Bernie is not the candidate of the Democrats, can there be an alternative legitimate avenue for him to be on the ballot?

I know he has said he will support whomever. That 'noble' intention is the unsurmountable problem. Bernie is no Malcolm X. He has devotees, but that is not a movement. If it can't happen, in the face of this negativity attracting all the energy at such sites as quoted, I cannot imagine his candidacy from within will succeed. Nor that US foreign policy, so important to us here, will change.

All the same, bravo to him as far as he has gone. We have a way to go yet, and perhaps we are seeing the beginning of a real movement now. It didn't happen right away in Russia. But they got there in the end.


Posted by: juliania | Feb 26 2020 19:30 utc | 42

On the last thread, I proved all candidates aside from Sanders are Pro-Establishment and Anti-99%. I've also written that Sanders is imperfect and that we'll never find a perfect candidate given the fact of human imperfection. So as far as I'm concerned, the debate over which candidate to support has ended with Sanders being the clear choice. I've also shown how Sanders can wrap his campaign proposals in the language of the Constitution and the designs of The Founders which would make it dangerous for any of his opponents to argue against them, which is why we're beginning to see personal assaults and smears against his character.

In 2016, the clear enemy was Hillary Clinton and her DNC/DLC rackets. In 2020, those enemies remain but are obfuscated by the current Pro-Establishment candidates. IMO, what must happen next is for the People's Party Movement Sanders initiated to become autonomous--to grow beyond Bernie Sanders and truly embody all the people already in and soon to join. The reason ought to be clear: No one individual can beat back the Establishment and their Death Squads (If you don't think they exist, you're very naïve); they can only be defeated by a very broad coalition of US citizens, most of whom still need to be educated as to who their enemies are.

The shouting matches here and elsewhere only serve the Establishment and must cease. Some may not care to support Sanders, but to work against him is to work against yourself. It's also very key for Sanders to have likeminded people elected to Congress and to statehouses nationally. The most important election during the Depression was 1936, and one of FDR's most important speeches was the 1937 Inaugural, which I've also cited and linked. Most importantly, political change won't occur unless we all get off our butts and work for it regardless of where you're living as ousting Neoliberalism and reestablishing national sovereignty is a global task for all citizens to accomplish. Yes, a repetition of the last financial crisis is on the horizon. The real data I've shown proves the real economy has yet to recover from the Dot.Com crash of the late 1990s while a vast army 100 million strong want full employment at a living wage, all of whom ought to be within the Movement. I'm reminded that we've been pushed and pulled in so many directions over the years that we're now like the befuddled star of Quadrophrenia who in a moment of lucidity sings:

"My karma tells me
You've been screwed again.
If you let them do it to you
You've got yourself to blame.
It's you who feels the pain
It's you that feels ashamed."

And that the only remedy is to fight back--to Rage Against the Machine and convert the Mods.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 26 2020 19:39 utc | 43

Jackrabbit @28

"Bernie's 2016 sheep-dogging."

This remains a false accusation as far as I'm concerned. We (wife and I) were Sanders followers/supporters when in 2014 or 2015 he solicited the comments from those on his mailing list why he was considering running. I felt he was serious about his core message then, and still do. Had he done other than he had at the end of the '16 campaign, his political life would have been over, but instead here he is, stronger and more organized and still with the same message. I'm guessing that of the probably many who supported him but ended up casting a ballot for HRC would have done so without the herding of a sheep dog. That's what my wife did, but I did not. My wife, like Bernie, couldn't stomach the thought of Trump in the WH; do you suggest that my wife's vote was not honest or that Sanders desire not to see Trump elected wasn't real? It was a foregone conclusion here in Ohio and the count proved that out, so my vote for Stein was of no consequence.

And I understand the argument that voting matters little. Gillens and Page (sp,s?) assembled statistical proof, in the best traditional style, of the disenfranchisement of the non-wealthy and the non-powerful from any influence on governance. Yet, if this is so, there are many powerful forces at work trying to derail Sanders and the stirrings inspired by his stump. Sanders core message goes to the heart of how we are disenfranchised - money in government, systemic corruption. Perhaps very many always took this politics as a given, but believed it was either petty corruption and/or of no consequence in their lives. But this is 2020 and the ownership society has become greedier; freed from regulatory restraints by the captured political class it has become predatory in all aspects of our lives. This is not a difficult reality to prove. Health care is a raging example of this, a fact that most of us commoners have thoroughly absorbed by now.

Only meant to refute the sheep herding accusation. I digressed.

Posted by: vinnieoh | Feb 26 2020 20:08 utc | 44

Reposted from the last of the Week in Review Open Thread (with its comment numeration):

Trailer Trash @332:
>Not only could this burgeoning movement be a very long-awaited opening here in the US, it >could be a real game-changer globally.
>Posted by: Vintage Red | Feb 25 2020 12:38 utc | 315

"A pleasant thought, but is it more than just another pipe dream? Is there even one example of an electoral machine turning into a movement that went beyond getting votes? If there is, it needs to be closely studied."

Recently, no. While it may seem long ago, the commoners of France's Third Estate took part in a clearly rigged system and turned it into a vehicle for the French Revolution. Because the US people going into this have now, like the French people then, a very tall stack of grievances and very little political organization or ideology (this latter may have advantages as well as disadvantages) I feel this may not be too stretched a comparison. In a sense I'm seeing the Sanders campaign as our modern Third Estate's coming together all over the country, knowing we'll likely be outvoted or otherwise denied, but still gathering together and talking, sharing ideas and experiences and assembling our demands to present to the PTB.

But going beyond this, we can't commit the error of those who "prepare to win the last war" or in this case preceding revolutions—almost all of which were not fought in the metropolitan imperial centers anyway but in the colonized countries where electoral structures were nonexistent. Plus, it's not as though socialist consciousness-raising opportunities are thick on the ground here in the US, whose propaganda machine would make Goebbels drool with envy. The terrain of our struggles isn't always that which we would choose according to "classical" models.

We need to be here and now, and ready for something new. We need to *be* something new. US electoral campaigns generally suck all the oxygen out of the social space in which we'd normally be organizing, and the Democratic Party has long been called "the place social movements go to die"... but this may well be an exception that proves the rule. The growth and strength of the Sanders campaign, and the rallying to it of more and more sectors of the working class, is something that has caught both the capitalists as well as many of us longtime revolutionary socialists by surprise.

Many others have talked about modern warfare—4th generation or what-have-you—being decentralized, with blurring of lines between war and politics, combatants and civilians, or (is this a Saker formulation?) 80% informational, 15% economic, 5% kinetic, etc. I believe we need to develop our sense of class war and how to conduct it to its next level. If nothing else a working class presence in an otherwise capitalist election can promote consciousness-raising, exposing the false nature of capitalist democracy, raising socialist alternatives. If there is to be a development here of something akin to "4th Generation Class Warfare", well, it's certainly greatly informational with potentially significant economic ramifications (we'll see about kinetic). For this year we must absolutely blur the lines between class war and electoral politics—while the corporate media seek to absorb and disperse class consciousness against us. And we must look beyond this year—this election isn't forever, even if the corporate media make it feel that way...

But we can only do this if we are present with our ideas, experience and hard work alongside everyone else rising in this struggle—building on its strengths, shoring up its weaknesses and fiercely countering its contradictory manifestations (e.g., bashing Russia, China, Iran or other objectionable foreign policy). Influence and leadership are earned in real struggle and can only be earned where that struggle is happening.

The alternative is for us to hang around the edges of this movement handing out leaflets inviting people to come instead to our little meetings to hear about "pure" socialism. I'm not arguing for any faith in the Democratic Party or US electoral politics as a vehicle for real change, only to recognize that this struggle is breaking out *within* the Democratic Party even though it's not *of* the Democratic Party. I'm trying to argue for a broader perspective on how to build a movement here in the US with what we have. And, there being a relationship between domestic and foreign policy, both the realist and optimist in me feels that building even an initially "domestically-minded" mass left here will have global implications.

Posted by: Vintage Red | Feb 26 2020 20:11 utc | 45

Bernie rally live From Myrtle Beach!

https://youtu.be/6WinWkMqPSU

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 20:11 utc | 46

To blues @41 (2020/02/26 19:08 UTC):

Technically, what you're proposing appears to be a form of positional voting -- with the ballots marked from the top score down rather than from the lowest-numbered (highest-preference) rank up, and with the option of not filling in all possible scores.

If it were possible for someone with two top favorites in your example field of ten to give both of them a 10, or do the like at the bottom of the ranking range (or anywhere in the middle), then you'd be closer to score voting (a/k/a range voting).

In the US non-political world, you're pretty much talking about a sports poll. But some places have adopted positional voting for their government elections, too.

(Of course, no voting system -- ordinal or cardinal -- can meet all desirable criteria. It's up to each voting population to decide what it cares most about.)

Posted by: jalp | Feb 26 2020 20:11 utc | 47

karlof1 @43

Thank you for your post here and your link to the other thread. It is very informative and quite frankly helpful in navigating this messy space.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 26 2020 20:14 utc | 48

Cynthia @48--

Thanks for your reply. It's the Class War; it's been raging for decades (centuries really), long enough for us to become educated so we don't get fooled again as happened with Obama. We also know the massive threat posed by the Establishment; saying it's existential is no longer hyperbole; the proof's in the 100 million and every point the Outlaw US Empire touches globally. And if that's not enough, we see how Julian Assange's treated and know they'd like to do the same to all of us who threaten their ill-gotten privilidge.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 26 2020 21:03 utc | 49

On the last thread, I proved all candidates aside from Sanders are Pro-Establishment and Anti-99%. I've also written that Sanders is imperfect and that we'll never find a perfect candidate given the fact of human imperfection. So as far as I'm concerned, the debate over which candidate to support has ended with Sanders being the clear choice. ... Most importantly, political change won't occur unless we all get off our butts and work for it regardless of where you're living as ousting Neoliberalism and reestablishing national sovereignty is a global task for all citizens to accomplish. ... And that the only remedy is to fight back--to Rage Against the Machine and convert the Mods.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 26 2020 19:39 utc | 43

Amen, Brother, AMEN!

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 21:23 utc | 50

“This discussion is frankly irrelevant. Trump is assured of re-selection because he's appeased the only two constituencies that matter: the military industrial complex and the zionist lobby. “

No you forgot the other constituencies that will vote for him
Namely the dumb ass stupid rednecks , and the as stupid evangelist.

Posted by: Kooshy | Feb 26 2020 21:32 utc | 51

@ jalp | Feb 26 2020 20:11 utc | 47

=/ Technically, what you're proposing appears to be a form of positional voting... /= -- above

Yeah but I already stated that didn't I? And where does this "Technically" come from? That is so often just an opening phrase for intellectually sophisticated fools. Forget the CIA owned and operated 'Wikipedia'. Of course I know all about that 'score/range' voting. And also about all the alchemy of election methods 'criteria', and the irrelevant 'Condorcet' criterion, etc. It all means nothing in the real world.

There is one and only one criterion that makes any real difference: Does the system provide escape from elite fronted party lock-in? That, truly, is all that matters. All the rest of it is just intellectual masturbation of the most sordid kind.

Just allow ranked simple voting, and the psychopathy of elite fronted party lock-in will fade away.

Posted by: blues | Feb 26 2020 21:33 utc | 52

Hey, remember yesterday evening I was here bitchin' that the debate audience must have been paid by Bloomberg or the DNC cause they were so hostile to Bernie. I was right to suspect something!

This is how sharp Papa Bernie is! (Click on interview with MSNBC and vol. Right bottom.)

Bernie zinger

Oh and someone else caught Bloomberg in a Freudian slip like me! (It went right over the ms media's head.)

Bloomberg slip

-Trust you instincts.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 21:47 utc | 53

Here's two versions of the video of Bloomberg gaffe.

Bloomberg slip

This is the funny version.

https://youtu.be/kT5k73noAQo

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 22:10 utc | 54

karlof1 @49

You are right about it being a class war. It is this class war that the neoliberal establishment does not want us to see, hence creating other divisions such as racial, gender/trans, religious, etc. so we fight one another instead of uniting and fighting them.

When the many shades of surveillance are added in to your establishment existential threat, the Matrix feels really close at hand.

My guess is that your understanding stems from years of paying attention. Do you have any recommendations for sites that have helped?

I take it that your support of Bernie, with his imperfections, is due to you seeing him as a possible shift in the neoliberal order. My concern is that his imperfections are also baggage that is keeping people from supporting him - the woke agenda, panicky human-caused climate change agenda, supporting most of the MIC agenda. The first two are areas in which debate has been/is being shut down, which is a real red flag.

Thank you for any reply, or none. I always appreciate the big picture.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 26 2020 22:23 utc | 55

Vintage Red #315 on the week in review thread.

I respond here in line with the 'keep it tidy' formula.

On Sanders organisation strategy. I guess every state and every district now has a clearly identified Sanders support team. That knowledge is in the control of Sanders election campaign people.

I see it as imperative to establish a parallel organisation similar to the Alinsky organisations (much has been written of these) that followed his work in Chicago all those decades ago. People need to get lists of the Bernie supporters in their locale and ready them to outflank the tight fist of control that would (might) direct those contacts to continue backing the DNC corruption if (when) they steal Bernie's nomination in 2020.

That is the vital first step. Then they could set up regular meet ups or even a store front and provide political and material cooperative support for people in their community. But always focussed on the political.

Jokingly I could suggest they be called the Howard Zinn liberation front or Joe Hill for President campaign.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 26 2020 22:38 utc | 56

karlof1 @49

Followed your poster name and found Michael Hudson, as a start.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 26 2020 22:43 utc | 57

Debate Ticketgate continues:

Lol! Bernie wasn't the only one booed at a debate...(watch both videos, 1st and 2nd on SC news investgating Bernie's ticket price allegations.

ha! I'll pay to boo this one!

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 22:51 utc | 58

I think B should reconsider renaming this thread to the watch Circe belittle and beat everyone with a different opinion about Bernie Sanders about the head with a tar and feather accusation of being a pro zionist beat stick. Absolute nonsense.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Feb 26 2020 23:01 utc | 59

Cynthia @55--

I'm a historian by training focusing on the Outlaw US Empire and everything related, which is a very wide field of inquiry. Yes, I started out paying attention as an adolescent during the 1960s with 1968 being a very important year for me. I'd read the Warren Commission Report a year earlier and thus began my real education. I passed out flyers for RFK in 1968 prior to the California Primary and watched again as the cities burned earlier that Spring. I pursued a career and tried to find love, but after 20 years I returned to college. Aside from college libraries, various alt-websites have served well over the years--Z-net, CommonDreams, The Oil Drum, MoA--along with a mixture of news sites that are nowadays all based in Russia or China. The one person I've learned more from online is Dr. Michael Hudson, whose Super Imperialism I bought and read after it was published during my senior high school year. And Noam Chomsky, not so much from his prose but from all the sources he consulted. Yes, I'm an end note and bibliography junkie. Solitude and time to study were also important assets. Knowing I was being lied to by Media and politicos was also helpful and thus made me seek out an objective historical narrative whereby I discovered I wasn't alone in my quest. Currently, Hudson's historical big picture is the one in which I believe the most merit lies--4,000+ years of Class War between creditors and debtors frames the West's existence, including its religions, which are its longest lasting institutions. And I highly value genuine discourse with associates.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 26 2020 23:04 utc | 60

Walter #13

Replying to

Circe | Feb 26 2020 16:11 utc |

I have never insulted your intelligence, nor, I am entirely sure, even your delusions, or any other characteristic of yours - only criticized your rudeness and your memory.

Please knock off the rudeness. It undermines you, nobody else.

EXACTLY THAT, thank you Walter and thank you SharonM. Remain calm and mindful. Add a dash of mirth now and again.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 26 2020 23:04 utc | 61

vinnieoh @44

"Bernie's 2016 sheep-dogging." ... I felt he was serious about his core message then, and still do.

He wouldn't attack Hillary on character issues. Nor would he attack the Party or take issue issue with media coverage.

He infamously gave Hillary a pass on the emails issue when he declared: "Enough with your damn emails!"

He was a "sheepdog" because he wasn't doing everything he could to win and then supported Hillary despite the humiliation of Hillary's bringing Debra Wasserman-Schultz into her campaign.

Yeah, he's serious about his "message" ... but not serious about actually winning.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 26 2020 23:06 utc | 62

I gotta say, I can't wait til Sanders moves into general election mode. Trump thinks he's real slick ready to dish the dirt, but I think Bernie's got his number lined up.

https://youtu.be/bZMzI1ACUNU

Bernie sneaks up on Trump. Warning: Put you diapers on!

https://youtu.be/brvDhySezyk

Posted by: Circe | Feb 26 2020 23:19 utc | 63

Pete and Amy are going to boycott AIPAC conference.... wth

Posted by: b4real | Feb 27 2020 0:21 utc | 64

Karlof1 @60

"And I highly value genuine discourse with associates."

I'm with you. I invite that. Genuine discourse, with thoughtful back and forth. I'm no historian. Yet I'm interested in thinking and learning together. TY.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 27 2020 0:36 utc | 65

Democrat Joe Biden blatantly lies as he falsely claims that *150 MILLION* Americans have been killed in shootings since 2007.

That's nearly half the U.S. population.

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1232486189598310400

Posted by: Mao | Feb 27 2020 0:41 utc | 66

Joe Biden announces his candidacy for US Senate:

https://twitter.com/ErinMPerrine/status/1232293642984927232

Posted by: Mao | Feb 27 2020 0:43 utc | 67

Last night at the Democratic debate no one immediately noticed, most especially the lame media, how Buttigieg screwed the pooch with this bit of misinformed, unenlightened, wiseguy condescension:

Buttigieg said, I am not looking forward to a scenario where it comes down to Donald Trump, with his nostalgia for the social order of the 1950s, and Bernie Sanders with a nostalgia for the revolutionary politics of the 1960s.

Okay, but you really stepped into it butthead! You belittled and probably alienated millions of former revolutionary boomers in their 60s and 70's, who have justifed nostalgia for protest activism and social justice movements and organizations, the Civil Rights Movement, the Anti-War Movement, the United Farm Workers, and an era rich in creative awareness that gave rise to prominent revolutionary figures like MLK and Malcolm X and others together with musicians and artists who helped evolve the consciousness of humanity and changed the world.

The first big question, especially for a southern Black crowd, might be how the civil rights movement squares with Buttigieg’s concerns about an era which saw Martin Luther King, Jr.’s rise to political prominence, and his tragic assassination; an era that gave prominence to the Black Panthers, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers, and many, many more Black leaders, whose work is still relevant today. These people, their work, and their movement are undoubtedly part of the “revolutionary politics of the 1960s.”

Or maybe Buttigieg is talking about the people fed up with the homo- and transphobic policies of the times, who rose up, in 1966, at Compton’s Cafeteria in San Francisco, and at the Stonewall Inn, in 1969, in New York? Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, two of the most notably lionized figures to come out of Stonewall and the ensuing years of LGBTQ organizing in New York, even put the word “revolution” in the name of the organization they started to house and care for LGBTQ youth, the Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries (STAR).

Maybe Buttigieg is worried about other movements from the 1960s. It was the era that gave us the Brown Berets, the Chicano movement, and an outburst of activism from migrant farmworkers. The '60s saw the birth of the Native-led Red Power movement and the Indigenous reclamation of Alcatraz Island. The bra-burning antics of the decade’s feminists may be misremembered, but it’s indisputable that the 1960s gave us a powerful wave of new feminist thought. Through it all, protests against the Vietnam War grabbed national attention. And many of these movements had young people leading the way.

We must remember that the revolutionary politics of the '60s were, in many ways, a response to the social order of the '50s. And just as Trump has pitched himself to America great again in a specifically '50s way, we need to make space for the revolutionary politics of the '60s to challenge the ways this nation has oppressed, and continues to oppress, the people it’s pledged to liberate.

revolutionary politics

Bernie Sanders witnessed one of the most powerful eras in American history and participated in the struggle for civil rights. Buttigieg owes him gratitude, respect and owes an apology to the generation of boomers who actively mobilized for achieving rights for the oppressed at that time.

Buttigieg is a shallow, vacuous pompous pretender to the highest seat of power in the wrong race at the wrong time getting schooled by an inspiring, authentic leader and his legion of defenders.

The revolutionary spirit of the 60s has been awakened at a critical moment in history once again and Bernie Sanders will lead it straight to the highest office in the land.

Bernie Sanders will defeat Donald Trump bringing with him a new generation of revolutionary warriors ready to fight corruption, take on the pressing issues of this time and the existential threat that looms ahead for all mankind.

It is no longer Trumptime. Trump was merely the catalyst for this moment to be seized. I wrote this and believed it from the moment I joined this site, and I am convinced we are embarking on what I envisioned then.

THE UNASSUMING, GENUINE BERNIE SANDERS WILL DEFEAT DONALD TRUMP AND THE MOMENT WILL BE TRANSFORMATIVE, EXHILARATING AND HISTORICAL.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 27 2020 1:38 utc | 68

"the Class War" and the "threat posed by the Establishment" is one aspect of what ails present day American society. Lurking behind it is the dominating cultural divide between individualism and collectivism that has always existed in the U.S. The deep strand of individualism in the American psyche, with its emphasis on "I" vs "We" consistently plays into the hand of the Establishment and its political enablers at all levels. It's this individualism that leads people to despise the nanny state for all its regulations, taxes and laws that control and limit individual behavior and freedom. These groups easily buy into the Establishment's pervasive warnings and dangers of "creeping socialism", or what they equate to the Bernie Sanders plan for America. Groups like Hillary's "deplorables", gun right advocates and independent business owners, and many others represent a hefty chunk of American society. I don't see them jumping on the Bernie Sanders bandwagon in any large numbers.

Posted by: Carciofi | Feb 27 2020 2:37 utc | 69

A more extensive article that compares collectivist and individualistic cultures:

Collectivist and individualistic cultures

Posted by: Carciofi | Feb 27 2020 2:54 utc | 70

=/ It's this individualism that leads people to despise the nanny state for all its regulations, taxes and laws that control and limit individual behavior and freedom. These groups easily buy into the Establishment's pervasive warnings and dangers of "creeping socialism", or what they equate to the Bernie Sanders plan for America. /= -- above

Perhaps it would be more precise to categorize these groups as 'individualists' and 'equalists'. They are posed as being in stark opposition, and yet they are not true opposites at all. Deep down we all know that we are indeed independent individuals. Yet just as deep down we all know that we are in a spiritual sense equals. Yet the psychopathic eleets always insist that we must constantly be in opposition to these intrinsic aspects of our own selves. It was always about divide and conquer, in every possible aspect.

The so-called 'state' has always been a larger aspect of family. A family always troubled with many warts and and inequities and conflicts. Nonetheless an inevitable extension of the profound idea of family.

And within any such family there will always exist those with a lust for power, which unlike sex, must always assume an expression of rape. This is why true democracy should exist. But of course, democracy can easily be abused, in the perpetration of power-rape. And this is the reason I advocate for ranked simple voting.

Posted by: blues | Feb 27 2020 3:43 utc | 71

Well, here’s the good news:
When Bernie loses the election to Trump in November, Circe just MIGHT be so deflated and forlorn that she never posts about Bernie again.

See, Trump can MAGA!
(Make Alabama Genial Again)

Posted by: Cadence calls | Feb 27 2020 6:20 utc | 72

Blues "This is why true democracy should exist."

What exactly is this. This would require a completely impartial media to disseminate information.
Who oversees the media's impartial information.
In a small community where everybody knows everybody else, democracy could function.
In large nations is no perfect system. We have good rulers or bad rulers. Any system can produce a good ruler and any system can produce a bad ruler.
Perfidious albion was exceptionally good at preventing revolutions. The democratic systems they brought in allowed the peasants to think they had a say. To prevent revolution during the cold war, The perfidious albion family had to ensure their peasants were better off than the soviets. That was the golden years of five-eyes democracy.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Feb 27 2020 9:10 utc | 73

blues #20

Ranked choice voting is an excellent process when done simply and honestly.

Paper ballots hand counted in public scrutiny is the other big issue and the two reforms should be instigated together.

In my land ranked choice was once an optional choice and that suited many people. You could vote for one or more.

I can believe that the USA will screw it into a useless boondoggle thought because mendacity rules in the legislature and the courts.

A revolution seems in order.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 27 2020 9:20 utc | 74

Bernie had better win BIG on super Tuesday.

From Michael Hudson here

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 27 2020 10:11 utc | 75

Cadence calls #72

MAGA

Make Afghanistan Ghastly Again
Coming very soon.

Make America Go Away
A growing preference worldwide.

Make America Grovel Again
Pompeo and Kushner on the search for a deal with Saudi Arabia and Israel.

That's more like it.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Feb 27 2020 10:22 utc | 76

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 26 2020 15:57 utc | 10

Corona Virus has the potential to be the end of Trump. It has become pandemic, is bound to kill the weak, and US healthcare/emergency services are in no state to deal with it - see Katrina. It will kill the weak and poor plus stop the economy for a while.

Sanders will own the most relevant subject of 2020.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 27 2020 12:46 utc | 77

The idea of the Coronavirus has the potential to be the transformative catalyst in the public's consciousness of what form of health care system they need, if Sanders cared to use it that way.

Needless to say, the first time he so much as whispers the word "Coronavirus" in a political context he'll come under extreme universal media pressure not to "play politics" about it and to be a "unifier not a divider".

It'll be a perfect barometer of his sheepdogging to what extent he obeys this injunction, as opposed to disregarding it and weaponizing the pandemic as much as possible on behalf of the system's need for single payer.

Posted by: Russ | Feb 27 2020 13:04 utc | 78

Trump's identification with the stock-market in recent weeks seems to me to have been so far over the top that he missed the one and only opportunity he had to distance himself from the coming market disruptions which could or would have given his crew something of a free pass as bubbles and the very idea of globalism disintegrate.

That's my thesis anyway. I've liked trump as the face of a bankrupt hegemon, seeing him unwind misplaced trust and faith as he has, while the music of populism played in the background for a few years.

Now however, even if the spring warming was to bring the infection R0 to 1, the posturing leaves him little but war to play election winning shell-games with. If they realize it or not, I think he's burned/alienated his base making the US look a completely rudderless hindrance.

Thus, @#5, he might just have inflicted mortal wounds on himself so that a trump outcome will require more extreme situations yet to be revealed. But perhaps that's what you meant!

Posted by: Michael | Feb 27 2020 13:05 utc | 79

uncle tungsten | Feb 27 2020 9:20 utc | 75 (revolution time...Lincoln affirmed revolution as a right in his first inaugural - a highly non pc speech )

Marat Sade quote> "It is the height of stupidity to claim that men who for a thousand years have had the power to berate us, to fleece us and to oppress us with impunity, will now agree, with good grace, to be our equals."

Mark Sleboda's twitter had / has a great image of a Red Army toy bear overlain with the slogan "My favorite gender neutral pronoun is Comrade"

Suitable as a lawn poster in our glorious election, or have a rubber stamp made with which to deface your favorite wall or currency...the slogan's stamp would be just right on the face of your favorite actor, er, pol. Of course there's always a sharpie...

(substantially a repost, as this sequence seem more appropriate)

Posted by: Walter | Feb 27 2020 13:27 utc | 80

Jackrabbit @62

I did see your reply shortly after it was posted last evening, but I had to prepare dinner, then spent the evening with my wife - much preferable to online bickering.

It is your opinion that Sanders was/is not in it to win. That's your opinion. My opinion is that is not true. I too remember pretty well every step of the '16 campaign, and the choices Sanders made, many which disheartened me greatly. I believe that it can be argued that all of the decisions he made can be interpreted as political self-preservation. At many points along the way he could have made decisions that no doubt would have pleased the more radical or "real" left, but which also would have effectively ended his political career. This is the harsh shitty reality we live in.

Referring again to the beginnings of his '16 campaign he did in fact direct his arguments of corruption at the Democratic Party. And I was also watching when he said "enough with the damn e-mails" as the moderators of that debate tried to direct the "show" to scandal! when he was trying to talk about issues.

I'm not going to have a back and forth with you; I will convince you of nothing. But I'll share my considered opinion of Bernie Sanders with you and any others who care to read it. Please keep in mind that EVERYTHING I'm going to say is my opinion which may in the end be proven wrong or unfounded.

Sanders does understand the root problems with US politics and government. He's old school enough to still believe that some change, any change, can be affected through the electoral process. He's also pragmatic enough to understand the only route to the WH is through the corrupt vicious 2-party system. His reluctance to engage in personal attacks or exhibit a killer instinct is probably guided by a personality that is shaped by his own perception of ethical behavior. He believes that the issues and being on the right side of them should be enough to carry the day. This last is possibly what you see as "not in it to win it."

If there is any truth in the many polls that report that Sanders is the most consistently popular political figure of recent years, my guess is that's because he's saying things that have heretofore been considered taboo or political suicide by the pundit intelligentsia, but a beaten down and disenfranchised citizenry is hungry to hear.

Again, all and just my opinion. I'll end my little statement of belief (be it deluded or accurate) by paraphrasing Ghandi: "What do you think of US democracy?" reply "It would be a good idea."

Posted by: vinnieoh | Feb 27 2020 15:55 utc | 81

Buttigieg has no path to victory or even close to getting into third place, because without the black and latino vote; he's toast.

He is now in the race and wasting money ONLY to get as many delegates as possible away from Bernie on Super Tuesday, and to be able to go to the convention. But he will never be the nominee even shamelessly courting super-delegates with his usual WEASELRY. No candidate doing poorly with blacks and latinos and getting only a handful of pledged delegates will EVER get the superdelegates to side with him.

I predict Buttigieg will throw his support behind Bloomberg to steal the nomination. They are close in their foreign policy intervention platforms, and Buttigieg is very friendly with the billionaire, corporate class.

Buttigieg is a loser.

People must overwelm the polls on Super Tuesday, because narrow margins can be rigged. Nothing must be taken for granted.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 27 2020 16:23 utc | 82

vinnieoh @82

Thanks, for the reply.

I support Sanders policies and hope that he wins the nomination.

Unfortunately, the deck is stacked against him. Just as it was in 2016.

My opinion is that if he really wants to win, he has to take on the Party. But that's something that he doesn't seem interested in doing.

That you and other progressive-minded people like his "message" isn't nearly enough to get him nominated and elected.

The Party uses identity politics, and media assets to spread FUD. Is rising above these 'hits' really the best course? Examples: When Hillary said "no body like him" Bernie's response was merely: "On a good day, my wife likes me." (Note: Tulsi was much more forceful when Hillary went after her.) And when accused of Russian support for his candidacy, he didn't attack Russiagate as nothing more than a bogus excuse for Hillary's loss in 2016.

Why are there two billionaires on the debate stage? Why are there no people of color? And what about the Party's claim, in a lawsuit over their collusion with Hillary in 2016, that it doesn't have to be democratic?

I am among those who doubt that anyone an wrest control of the Democratic Party. Attempting to do so seems doomed to fail and actually supports the corrupt political system.

IMO we need genuine, independent Movements not a political party insurgency. It's clear that that is what the establishment most fears, not Bernie.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2020 16:54 utc | 83

uncle tungsten @56

"I guess every state and every district now has a clearly identified Sanders support team. That knowledge is in the control of Sanders election campaign people.

"I see it as imperative to establish a parallel organisation similar to the Alinsky organisations (much has been written of these) that followed his work in Chicago all those decades ago. People need to get lists of the Bernie supporters in their locale and ready them to outflank the tight fist of control that would (might) direct those contacts to continue backing the DNC corruption if (when) they steal Bernie's nomination in 2020."

The Sanders campaign has totally outclassed its DNC rivals in numbers and enthusiasm. As far as lists and parallel organizing from within go, a lot of that is already in place or very quickly assembled from the nature of people's internet connections... but to openly parallel organize ahead of time would send the strongest of signals—especially if it's toward an all-around revolutionary movement rather than simply an electorally-oriented third party...

:-)

"Jokingly I could suggest they be called the Howard Zinn liberation front or Joe Hill for President campaign."

Both excellent possibilities, but perhaps even more relevantly the Eugene Debs Breakout Front

Posted by: Vintage Red | Feb 27 2020 16:59 utc | 84

Will the last idiot to insist that the Sanders movement is a cynical attempt to lead unsuspecting radicals into supporting the Clintonites- that Bernie is and was in 2016 a 'sheepdog' candidate- please incorporate this story into the theory?
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/02/27/youll-see-rebellion-sanders-supporters-denounce-open-threats-superdelegates-steal

Posted by: bevin | Feb 27 2020 17:18 utc | 85

bevin @86:

Problems I see with your comment and link:

1) "Sanders Movement"

A political campaign can be loosely defined as a "Movement" but an independent political Movement is very different.

Sanders' "Movement" is just progressive-minded people that believe that Sanders policies make sense for them and the nation.

But a real Movement - organized as a independent Movement, not a campaign - might develop if Sanders is denied the nomination.

Sanders himself almost certainly will not lead an independent Movement. He will support the Democratic Party nominee as he said he would - and as he did in 2016.


2) The article you link to assumes that the Democratic Party will not act smartly AND that Sanders will not act to support the Democratic Party
It's likely that the Democratic Party will throw Sanders a 'bone' in an attempt to prevent angry Sanders supporters from leaving the Party and/or forming a genuine Movement.

That 'bone' could take many forms: Bernie vs. Billionaires kabuki? Tulsi as VP? Platform changes?


Bernie has repeatedly talked of Party unity and said that he would support whomever the Democratic Party nominates. This makes it highly likely that he'll participate in whatever kabuki is deemed necessary by the Democratic Party.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 27 2020 19:11 utc | 86

@Jon_in_AU #24
You said:

{Sanders} He is no savior, but is a necessary catalyst to try and disrupt the steady flow of the nation down the proverbial shit-chute. He is a stepping-stone to a better outcome than the current scam, so good on him and good luck.

The above was said about Trump.
Just saying...

Posted by: c1ue | Feb 27 2020 19:45 utc | 87

Will the last idiot to insist that the Sanders movement is a cynical attempt to lead unsuspecting radicals into supporting the Clintonites-
Posted by: bevin | Feb 27 2020 17:18 utc | 86

I think we can collect corroborating testimony, e.g. expressions of gratitude by Hillary Rodham Clinton herself.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 27 2020 20:00 utc | 88

To my thoughs @40 above:

I scrolled through the NC debate comments to about two-thirds down, to find a clear positive on Bernie's remarks:

nippersmom: "Great comment from Bernie on US overthrowing governments around the world."
...
...
Posted by: juliania | Feb 26 2020 19:30 utc | 42

If it's not too much trouble, Juliania, would you mind reproducing the crux of Bernie's comment on US overthrowing govternments around the world, which filled 'nippersmom' with such unbridled enthusiasm?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 27 2020 20:22 utc | 89

@ uncle tungsten | Feb 27 2020 9:20 utc | 75

=/ Ranked choice voting is an excellent process when done simply and honestly. /= -- per uncle tungsten

I know the good uncle has been seriously misled about this. As I said, the system bears 'unobvious complexity'. The situation is sort of like having someone state that "the present choose-one voting system must represent an 'excellent process' since it provides every voter with an equal amount of electoral leverage." But we all know that system is very far from 'excellent'. I'm afraid I lack the time right now to explain why ranked choice voting (RCV) disastrously fails to provide any genuine (not just superficial) escape from eleet fronted party lock-in. I intend to explain what goes terribly wrong with it in a future open thread.

Posted by: blues | Feb 27 2020 21:19 utc | 90

" If Bernie Sanders thinks Cuba is worth defending, he should talk to gay dissidents
Aaron Hicklin"

"Democrats need to take a long, hard look at Bernie Sanders before taking the plunge
Andrew Gawthorpe"
Two stories today in the MI6 (formerly Manchester) Guardian attacking Bernie Sanders.

"we can collect corroborating testimony, e.g. expressions of gratitude by Hillary Rodham Clinton herself." Piotr Berman@89

You would have to be very short of evidence to count Hillary's pro-forma, transparently insincere 'thanks' at the Convention, given the incredible tsunami of whining and blame transferring that she has directed at Sanders for losing her the election. Even today her operatives continue to blame Sanders and indeed the "Russians" that they claim are backing him for the fruits of the campaign that she, and her cronies in the DNC, began by cheating the primary voters and stealing votes.
It is a campaign that still continues as the Clintonite connections with the Mayor of South Bend's audacious attempt at daylight robbery in Iowa reminds us.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 27 2020 22:27 utc | 91

Jackrabbit, there is nothing in your post @87 to sustain your repeated assertions that Sanders is a "sheepdog" candidate.
Of course all candidates entering a party primary pledge their intention to honour the outcome of the process: all the Primary candidates, whether they are sincere or not, are bound to do this. It means nothing.

As to your remarks regarding "movements" they tell us nothing except that what you consider to be real movements go far beyond the electoral system, and campaigning for votes. Is this meant to be news?
It is quite obvious-and has been clearly stated- that what we see in the Sanders campaign has, for the first time since 1968, the potential of developing into a significant challenge not just to the electoral duopoly but to the entire post 1945 Cold War consensus structure.
The cynicism with which you dismiss-not Sanders a 78 year old approaching retirement engaged in one of his last political battles- but the enormous and dedicated outpouring of support (NotmeUS) which is swelling into an unprecedented series of primary victories, against the massed forces of the oligarchy and the Deep State, is a reminder that at the very core of the rule of oligarchs is the image of Defeat posing as Wisdom. Apathy passing itself off as Experience.
It is not too late, you can drop the sheepdog nonsense, forget that "the people always lose" and recognise that, long after it became obvious that something is going to have to give in this rotten, crumbling imperial edifice, something is happening. And it is taking place where it must, in the United States itself, the long overdue reckoning between the victims and the tiny elites which bleed and milk them. A real battle between power and truth not a kabuki contest, of the sort that fascinates you, between a 'bad guy' and a young innocent from Central Casting, but a contest between classes, rich and poor; old and young; the filthy rich and the tens of millions one pay cheque away from poverty and the tiniest economic glitch away from unemployment; the few with luxurious medical insurance plans and the many who fear sickness and do not dare to visit a doctor.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 27 2020 23:02 utc | 92

For the ages:

No, Not Sanders, Not Ever -- He is not a liberal, he’s the end of liberalism. - by David Brooks

Symptomatic.

Posted by: vk | Feb 28 2020 1:39 utc | 93

bevin @93

A Weinstein and Epstein shill defends Bernie.

So righteous .. and yet, so wrong.

Does influencer-washing the reputations of wealthy sex offenders pay well?

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 28 2020 2:32 utc | 94

"we can collect corroborating testimony, e.g. expressions of gratitude by Hillary Rodham Clinton herself." Piotr Berman@89

You would have to be very short of evidence to count Hillary's pro-forma, transparently insincere 'thanks' at the Convention, given the incredible tsunami of whining and blame transferring that she has directed at Sanders for losing her the election. Even today her operatives continue to blame Sanders and indeed the "Russians" that they claim are backing him for the fruits of the campaign that she, and her cronies in the DNC, began by cheating the primary voters and stealing votes.
It is a campaign that still continues as the Clintonite connections with the Mayor of South Bend's audacious attempt at daylight robbery in Iowa reminds us.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 27 2020 22:27 utc | 92

My sentiments exactly, although I was inspired by "Nobody likes him" comment that was, how to say it, short of warmth. I also think that the comment was sincere: nobody on speaking terms with former Secretary of State likes the senior senator from Vermont. Total social separation.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 28 2020 2:51 utc | 95

vk94

You're linking the Neoliberal NYT to slam Bernie? Ugh.

Jackrabbit

CAN YOU PLEASE WRITE SOME INDICATION THAT YOUR LINK IS TO A COMMENT SOMEONE MADE HERE AND NOT TO SOME ARTICLE OF SOME WIDELY-KNOWN PERSON OFFICIALLY ENDORSING BERNIE.

YOU ARE VERY DECEPTIVE!

Posted by: Circe | Feb 28 2020 2:54 utc | 96

My statement and the link are not deceptive.

Why are you shouting?

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Feb 28 2020 3:03 utc | 97

Today it's all bad news.

First I am very confident from a tweet on Andrew Yang's site that he is going to make an announcement right after Super Tueday that he will be joining someone's campaign as VP. Today he got an offer from... Bloomberg! However, I suspect he might join up with Biden. Dividend income or not! If he joins with either, his supporters SHOULD DROP HIM IMMEDIATELY as he will have fully betrayed progressives. Anyway this kind of shady, weaselry stinks! First he joins CNN and now this??? YIKES. Dark Side is understatement.

To make matters worse the DNC is at it again! The superdelegates are supposed to vote on the second ballot, but the rules might be changed to prevent Sanders from becoming the nominee. Sanders has already stated that whoever gets the most pledged delegates should be the nominee. If he gets the most pledged delegates, and they use the superdelegates to crown someone, I believe Bernie will not accept this. He stated he would support the Nominee IF that person earned the most pledged delegates, not if he earned them and the superdelegates side with someone else. If they do this they will be ushering in another Trump term! If they do this there will be a revolt like they've never seen.

Even if Biden wins SC and then racks up a substantial amount of pledged delegates on SUPER TUESDAY and DNC make him the nominee. HE WILL LOSE TO TRUMP, and not just because he has under 5% of young voter OR LESS.

The DNC will make a catastrophic mistake choosing Bloomberg or Biden.

Posted by: Circe | Feb 28 2020 4:31 utc | 98

Jackrabbit

I'm shouting because you're trying to smear Bernie with that inflammatory title you put on that link that merely goes to an unkown person's opinion here! Who cares what they think! That has nothing to do with who Bernie is. When you don't have fact you try to smear him with deceptive manipulation! Anyway you rarely have facts.
All you do is hypothesize and spin and call it fact. Your tactics are dirty and you behave like A troll and I'm sick of it!

Posted by: Circe | Feb 28 2020 12:33 utc | 99

Chuck D, hip hop rapper, will be performing at a massive Bernie Sanders rally to be held on Sunday, March 1st at the LA Convention Centre.

chuck D Bernie Sanders

Bernie's Sanders campaign platform is the only one directly aligned with the Poor People's Campaign of the 60s led by MLK. Every other candidate pays only lip service and uses their speeches to it as a photop prop!

MLKsPoor People's Campaign

And it's aligned with the Poor People's Campaign of today carried forward by Reverend William Barber.

Today's Poor People's Campaign

Posted by: Circe | Feb 28 2020 13:12 utc | 100

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