Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 11, 2020

Iranian Armed Forces Say They Inadvertently Shot Down The Ukrainian Plane - Updated

Updated below

The Iranian Armed Forces General Staff just admitted (in Farsi, English translation) that its air defenses inadvertently shot down the Ukrainian flight PS 752 shortly after it took off on January 8 in Tehran :

2- In early hours after the missile attack [on US’ Ain al-Assad base in Iraq], the military flights of the US’ terrorist forces had increased around the country. The Iranian defence units received news of witnessing flying targets moving towards Iran’s strategic centres, and then several targets were observed in some [Iranian] radars, which incited further sensitivity at the Air Defence units.

3- Under such sensitive and critical circumstances, the Ukrainian airline’s Flight PS752 took off from Imam Khomeini Airport, and when turning around, it approached a sensitive military site of the IRGC, taking the shape and altitude of a hostile target. In such conditions, due to human error and in an unintentional move, the airplane was hit [by the Air Defence], which caused the martyrdom of a number of our compatriots and the deaths of several foreign nationals.

4- The General Staff of the Armed Forces offers condolences and expresses sympathy with the bereaved families of the Iranian and foreign victims, and apologizes for the human error. It also gives full assurances that it will make major revision in the operational procedures of its armed forces in order to make impossible the recurrence of such errors. It will also immediately hand over the culprits to the Judicial Organization of the Armed Forces for prosecution.

The Pentagon had claimed that Iran shot down the airliner but the evidence it presented was flimsy and not sufficient as the U.S. tends to spread disinformation about Iran.

It is welcome that the Iranian forces come clean about the incident.

That is not a given in such cases.

After the USS Vincennes in 1988 had shot down Iran Air Flight 655 and killed 290 people, including many children, the U.S. government denied any culpability. George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time, commented: "I will never apologize for the United States – I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." Despite its "error" the crew was given medals and the captain was even awarded a Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ...".

We can be assured by the statement of Iran's president that the responsible Iranian officer will receive no such a reward:

Hassan Rouhani @HassanRouhani - 4:43 UTC · 11 Jan 2020
Armed Forces’ internal investigation has concluded that regrettably missiles fired due to human error caused the horrific crash of the Ukrainian plane & death of 176 innocent people.
Investigations continue to identify & prosecute this great tragedy & unforgivable mistake. #PS752

The Islamic Republic of Iran deeply regrets this disastrous mistake.

My thoughts and prayers go to all the mourning families. I offer my sincerest condolences.

Let us also not forget that the root cause of the accident was an assassination campaign which the U.S. launched against foreign military commanders of a country with which it is not at war:

On the day U.S. forces killed Soleimani, they launched another secret operation targeting a senior Iranian official in Yemen

The strike targeting Abdul Reza Shahlai, a financier and key commander of Iran’s elite Quds Force who has been active in Yemen, did not result in his death, according to four U.S. officials familiar with the matter.

The U.S. executed a long planned campaign against several Iranian officers in third countries without any reasonable justification:

“There is no doubt that there were a series of imminent attacks being plotted by Qasem Soleimani,” Secretary of State Mike Pompeo told Fox News on Friday. “We don’t know precisely when and we don’t know precisely where, but it was real.” Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper have likewise supported the case for an imminent plot.

“Did it exactly say who, what, when, where? No,” Milley told reporters this week. “But he was planning, coordinating and synchronizing significant combat operations against U.S. military forces in the region, and it was imminent.”

Can there be any "imminent threat" when one does not know the "who, what, when, where" of the threat? Why would killing a high officer prevent the execution of such a threat? The excuse is obviously bullshit.

It was the U.S. assassination of the Iraqi and Iranian national heroes Abu Mahdi al-Muhandes and Major General Qassem Suleimani that led to the high alarm and nervousness which, in the end, killed 176 passengers and crew on board of flight PS 752.

Iran's foreign minister is right to point that out:

Javad Zarif @JZarif - 4:05 UTC · 11 Jan 2020
A sad day. Preliminary conclusions of internal investigation by Armed Forces:

Human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster

Our profound regrets, apologies and condolences to our people, to the families of all victims, and to other affected nations.
💔

The death of the people on flight PS 752 is the tragic outcome of unreasonable U.S. aggression.

Update 11:00 UTC

The Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corp IRGC's Aerospace Commander Amir-Ali Hajizadeh just gave press conference. It was an IRGC air defense unit that shot the plane down.

Iran Front Page journalist Reza Khaasteh translated on Twitter:

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I wish I was dead and such an incident hadn't happened. We in IRGC accept all the responsibility, and are ready to implement any decision made by the Establishment.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I was in the country's west following attacks on US base in Iraq when I heard the news. We sacrificed our lives for our people for a lifetime, and now we're trading our reputation with God (disgracing ourselves) and appear in front of the camera to explain.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr says we had requested the establishment of a no-fly zone given the war situation. But it was not approved for certain considerations.

Revision: IRGC Aerospace Cmdr says Air Defence operator sent a message to his commanders; but after he didn't receive any response for 10 seconds, he decided to shoot it down.

Video of IRGC Aerospace Cmdr. showing the place on map where the Ukrainian plane was shot down by the air defence.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr: I informed Iranian officials on Wednesday morning, and said we speculate our own passenger plane has been shot down. But the General Staff of Armed Forces quarantined all those who knew about it, and decided to declare it later.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: The officials, including Aviation authorities, who kept denying the missile hit, are not guilty. They made those remarks based on what they knew. We are to blame for everything.

IRGC Aerospace Cmdr.: We were at that time ready for an all-out war with US. We had reports of cruise missiles fired at Iran. It was an individual's error that caused this tragedy.

What I find inexplicable is that the crew of Tor M-1 air defense system did not really consider that the Tehran airport was operating and that civil traffic was likely. More than ten planes had already taken off before the Ukrainian flight took to the air. The accident happened shortly after 6:00 am local time. Pure speculation: I suspect that a crew change had happened at 6:00 am and that the overnight crew did not really brief the one taking over.

Another leak (ukr) from the Ukrainian side of the investigation gives some hints on how the plane came down (machine translation):

"We took up the restoration of fragments of the aircraft. It was necessary to determine how these pieces of metal dumped into a huge pile should be interconnected.

The intrigue remained until late. The fact is that there were no damages on most parts of the aircraft. There was no explosion and no fire in the engines or on the wings. It is possible that the plane could fall almost intact. Unlike the remains of the Boeing MN-17, there were no immediately visible signs of defeat by combat elements on the fuselage and wings. A lot of damage to the case is the result of a fall. But after laying out all the fragments of the aircraft, it became obvious that the bottom of the cockpit was missing.

Among the wreckage, fragments of the upper part of the cabin were identified. And then the find finally took place - at about 22 hours. On a fragment of the cockpit, we found holes in the damaging elements of the warhead of the rocket, which pierced the skin. We found! For the first time, direct evidence appeared in this case, which made it possible to prove what caused the death of the aircraft. For us it was a turning point.

So what we now understand:

Russian anti-aircraft missile "Tor" hit the liner in the lower part of the front of the fuselage, directly under the cockpit.

A direct hit and the cabin flared up inside. Instantly turned off the transponder of the aircraft, which gives signals about the flight. Instantly lost contact.

While there is no data, one or two missiles have caused such damage. It is possible that the second missile also hit the fuselage from below close to the first. But all this remains to be clarified.

We continue to lay out fragments of the aircraft until the complete collection of all surviving parts.

We expect that today we will gain access to all objective control data.

In cooperation with Iranian colleagues, we get the impression that those who contact us sincerely want to help themselves and figure it out, in general, there are no problems. Let's hope that such a mood and working contacts remain with us now."

Posted by b on January 11, 2020 at 4:21 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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This site and its comments have been an unfortunate repository of ridiculous, reflexive anti-American nonsense over the past few weeks. The speculation about the flight, and inability to accept Iranian responsibility, was one of the more silly charades.

Posted by: Daniel Lennon | Jan 11 2020 16:46 utc | 185

Get real.
May we suggest you comment @ DEBKA, Jpost, Epochtimes....et al

The rest-of-the-world is sick of little u.s' continuous wars since 1945. including Grenada, a spit of an island in the ocean, you won that one.

At 2016, here is the long bombing list of the 32 countries by the late William Blum. Did I mention sanctions is an Act of War?

Little u.s. has been preaching human rights while mounting wars and lying. Albright thought the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children were worth it. !!! it was worth killings and maiming.
Over $7 trillion spent while homelessness is rampant. Healthcare is unaffordable for the 99% of the population.

The u.s. will leave Iraq and Syria aka Saigon 1975 or horizontal. It's over.

2020: u.s. Stands Alone.

Searching for friends. Now, after Russiagate here is little pompous: "we want to be friends with Russia." Sanctions much excepting we need RD180 engines, seizure of diplomatic properties. Who are you kidding?

“we seek a constructive and productive relationship with the Russian Federation".

What a bunch of hyprocrits? How dare you criticize commenters who see little u.s. in the light of day, not a shining beacon on the hill..

Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 11 2020 17:48 utc | 201

Fog of War
did you even bother to read the fucking article or do you just believe zanons crap.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 17:49 utc | 202

Welll well we’ll. The first coverage of all the Iranian protests seems to be coming from Israeli outlets and Drudge, which has gone full zio.

Either it wasn’t purely accidental or the mossad is sensing a great opportunity.

Posted by: ebolaX | Jan 11 2020 17:50 utc | 203

I feared it was a mistake by the Iranians, on the odds alone, but wrote nothing.

A passenger airline is brought down (mistakenly / as a chosen target) what? .. less than once a year. So say - probably too high - .75 / 38 million flights, p. y., this flight Iran -> Kiev being a victim of some kind of ordnance, missile, bomb (I could not imagine it was engine failure or the like from the vids) at the time of hyper tense situation following a drone attack was most likely not coincidence.

Being surprised! at Iran not closing airspace / limiting / re-routing etc. commercial flights is weird.

The US *regularly* murders ppl by drone. Everyone knows one can’t treat that as a war-crime, be it officially (e.g. at the UN), or on the ground, everything would stand still! It is like, yeah the Mafia controls part of the neighbourhood but you still gotta run the bakery and the child care!

Trump blasts out dire threats, yet, one can’t expect the world to interpret his over the top biz type bluff correctly.

If everyone owned up to their dreadful errors like Iran has just done we would live in a saner, better, world.

Posted by: Noirette | Jan 11 2020 17:54 utc | 204

Paul @ 189,

That was my initial thought upon reading the news - that Iran is minimizing to the public the Hegemon's seeming ability to always be a step ahead due to it's nature as Hegemon. I now think it is the second most likely scenario to my scenario of comment 187, though naturally that process is subject to reversal.

We should be careful of assuming the Hegemon can always remain a step ahead now that the nonpolitical warfight has begun and the Hegemon is reduced to fighter status and therefore natural law.

Iran shooting down the Ukie plane shows the former Hegemon that Iran's killing machine has nerves of steel just as did the Hegemon's on 9/11. It was an homage and a slant rhyme.

Let's get ready to rumble.

Posted by: reant | Jan 11 2020 17:56 utc | 205

Other factor that may be relevant; If Tehran closes air space, Qatar may lose its air corridor, GPS Jamming / Counter measures, ADS-B report GPS position only, Primary civilian radar may provide cover for air defense systems (avoids radar homing missiles?) Go/No-go criteria for primitive standalone air defense systems may be very myopic. Geo-Fence, Altitude-Direction-speed. No networked intelligence or signature analysis.

Posted by: Fundas | Jan 11 2020 17:56 utc | 206

Daniel Lennon @ 184--
Here's what Cate says about guys like you---

"Caitlin Johnstone

‏ @caitoz
10h10 hours ago

Lot of narrative managers going around all "See?? Iran's admission that it shot that plane proves it's wrong to be skeptical of government claims!"

Doesn't work that way, sugar tits. *ALWAYS* be skeptical of such claims until solid proof is provided. Don't let them shame you.
36 replies 69 retweets 344 likes"

Posted by: arby | Jan 11 2020 17:58 utc | 207

I would note that the information is that the missile hit the plane 'in turning around'. My question would be, was the plane in difficulty before the missile hit? If so, it would certainly have presented an ambiguous target.

I would also note that commentors are completely wrong when they accuse Iran for admitting its mistake - this is what great nations do. Kennedy did it over the Bay of Pigs fiasco and trust in him was enhanced even though the error was great. Stupid leaders unsure of what is right and wrong never do this. Example: Bush. We now have more faith in Iran's leadership than we did before, so shut up, naysayers and those picking on Iran for being tardy. They have carefully analyzed what happened - that takes time. And they fronted up. Well done, Iran!

Posted by: juliania | Jan 11 2020 18:02 utc | 208

Via NyTimes: “Ukraine Plane Shot Down Because of Human Error, Iran Says: Live Updates”

“A New York Times analysis of flight path information and video of the missile strike determined that the plane stopped transmitting its signal for between 20 seconds and 30 seconds before it was hit.
Civilian airplanes identify themselves with radio signals constantly streaming from a system known as a transponder on the planes, said Ian Petchenik, a spokesman for Flightradar 24, which tracks the signals for flights around the world.”

Why was the plane not transmitting a signal for 20 to 30 seconds - this seems significant

Posted by: Stever | Jan 11 2020 18:05 utc | 209


Was Augustine being ironic in laying down his rules for the just war? Unintended horrors are baked into war. Mistakes, accidents and surprises are abundant and serious and continue to multiply on top of the huge pile of death, misery and destruction intentionally willed by the warring parties.

The fancier the technology, as is the case in the nuclear age, the more likely the screw-ups and the higher the tolls.

On the sidelines the knowledgeable and eloquent who become cheerleaders for one just side or another also end up in confusion, as we see today.

Forget all that knowledge gained by simple observation. The nations and their people will continue to worship Mars while mocking or ignoring the nonviolence preached by a not-so-meek Jesus, Gandhi, or MLK. Better, we say, to go down fighting––while taking down others of course––than standing in the way of the sword or a bullet as a way of stopping the spread of hate and its bloody works.

Posted by: Jay-Ottawa | Jan 11 2020 18:06 utc | 210

@ 95 skiffer... thanks.. i share your viewpoints.. i never accept statements as fact either.. thanks for articulating all that..

@ 98 peter au - " I think we will find in the end that just as Israel caused Syria to shoot down a Russian plane, US and Israel deliberately caused Iran to shoot down the Ukraine plane as a response to Iran's precision strikes on the US bases."

i was thinking about that last night after i signed off.. but after reading the update from b this morning, i wonder how much the communications system inside hq was fully operational? it sounds like it wasn't according to the guy who had 10 seconds to decide.. so was their some jamming of the communication systems in hq going on, thanks some outside forces? or? we can't know..

@ red ryder.. thanks for your comments.. i think there is some grist to them.. iran has been primarily isolated from the west and especially so the past 5-10 years.. having a closer trust in russia-china at this point is an intelligent move on their part, in spite of their fiercely independent streak.... you might be right - they need to put their pride aside and work more closely with russia.. well, they definitely need to work more closely with russia, but i don't know if it is pride or not..

i hope that the world and especially the western leadership see where their ongoing support for usa-israel is leading here.. i am not sure that they do, or if they are too ignorant to continue serving the gods of mammon to see where this is going.. countries need to reach out to iran in a friendly way, as opposed to what the proverbial jackass pompeo says...'we want iran to be a normal nation'... that is such an outrageously offensive thing for him to say.. he definitely ain't fucking normal and the usa ain't normal either... very warped - yes.. normal - no fucking way... btw - i hate normal.. why be normal? it is cover for all sorts of deception and bullshite..

Posted by: james | Jan 11 2020 18:11 utc | 211

There are quite a few idiots on this thread this morning. Take note.

Posted by: juliania | Jan 11 2020 18:13 utc | 212

Norwegian state channel NRK just said there was "anti regime" demonstrations in Teheran bc of the plane being shot down by IRCG.
I do have a feeling uncle schmuel is hard at work creating chaos.

Posted by: Per/Norway | Jan 11 2020 18:15 utc | 213

What can WE take away from this? Like many others also said: While i admire B. for his analysis, in events like this objectivity is lost.
The Colonel has a point when he says B. is always writing out of his Anti-US view.
Meaning always defending every US opponent, and coming up with theorys, when the most obvious answer is pointing against US-Opponents.
Alt.-Media is an echo chamber too. But the world is not black and white. And while the US are behaving criminally, this does not mean their opponents are worth declaring to be just victims.
Just like SF: Always blaming the US and never (Not once) critizicing Putin makes not for a better alternative to MSM. It is just MSM mirrored. To sides, that have no real objectivity.
Which pushes aways many people, who read Alt Media for the first time, and disullusions them.
Russia, Iran, Assad, NK or who ever are no saints, and are lightyears away from representing the political values that B. or most here claim for themselves. Do most of us truely believe in the political system of Putinism, Islamic Revolution and Scharia Law, or NK Juche (Rudi Dutschke, the famous German student leader of the 69s called such "socialism" "asiatic state slavery")??
Yes, The US and NATO need to be fought, for their criminal behaviour. But why do we need to sympatize and defend every little action with the totallity of Pravda of states which systems we would not want for our own countries?
It seems many want some "Good Guys" they can pin their hopes and sympathy on.. But there are none.
Lets face it. Iran is a islamistic regime enforcing the Sharia. We all (rightly) attack the Saudis, why give we Theran a pass?
I think we must fight against US breaking international law. And fight against the US attacking every country, no matter its system. Okay. But i dont think we also must paint those US opponents as "good guys".
And the first step to this would be to distance ourselfs, and be more objective. Reporting with a bias is always not productive, no matter how you defend that bias.
I think this mess is a chance to change. I see many others here agree with me.
Having often warned of this behaviour, where the possibility that a US-opponent country is never truly considered, but alternative theories endorsed, even if they are obviously less likely, will bite us in the ass.. This only hurts alt media, and disillusions people.
Which MSM will welcome back with open arms.

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Jan 11 2020 18:17 utc | 214

Posted by: Stever | Jan 11 2020 18:05 utc | 209

Why was the plane not transmitting a signal for 20 to 30 seconds - this seems significant

I am reminded of the Syrian S200 shooting down the Russian plane after being spoofed by the Israeli fighter hiding behind it. What if 'something' messed with the signal from the Boeing, causing it to not be recognized as civilian?

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 11 2020 18:18 utc | 215

Nitwit Trudope is currently giving a press conference. He is chest-thumping and going on about how he is outraged and insists that Iran conducts a thorough investigation and allows Canadians to take part. It's weird how they won't take "yes" for an answer. Maybe an advisor should tell him the Iranians invited Canada's participation on the first day?

"Iran must take full responsibility", said Trudope.

How much more responsibility can Iran take beyond "we did it and we're sorry, please help us investigate"?

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Jan 11 2020 18:20 utc | 216

Any individual - or a tight knit group of individuals subject to the same external stimuli - can make an error under duress. This is classic "fog of war" decision-making. Friendly fire incidents are common. Nobody on the ground in Teheran likely knew what type of response the US was going to make to their missile strikes. It is no stretch to believe that an anti-aircraft gunner could believe a US drone or F-35 had somehow penetrated external radars and reached the capital. The result was a disaster, sadly.
Two things: Assuming he did not blatantly disregard SOPs, I consider the commander who ordered the strike less culpable than the authorities that permitted the plane to take off in the first place. Had the US responded with force that night, the plane could have easily been caught in the crossfire anyway, even if the anti-aircraft gunners in Teheran had stood down.
The other thing is that the full admission and apology issued by the Iranian leadership is humane and in stark contrast to the bellicose, unapologetic reaction of the George HW Bush to the shootdown of the Iranian airliner, under far less stressful circumstances, in 1988. If anyone visiting this blog cannot grasp the reason why many posters here are ready to give Iran the benefit of the doubt, or even make excuses for it, it is because of the fact that US side is - and has always been - the naked aggressor in this conflict, forcing the Iranians to defend themselves by whatever means they can within the boundaries of their moral code, one clearly in evidence here.

Posted by: Activist Potato | Jan 11 2020 18:22 utc | 217

Chrystia is still pulling his string.
After IRGC takes responsibility for downing the UKIE plane, here is little drama justin of Canada:
Many questions remain "full clarity" is needed.

The BQ will not be long in supporting his stance.


Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 11 2020 18:26 utc | 218

DBEP @ 213 said--

But i dont think we also must paint those US opponents as "good guys". "

Good guys or not good guys? The point is that these "not good guys" are NOT attacking and threatening the US. The US on the other hand is constantly attacking and threatening and sanctioning and bad mouthing lots of these "not good guys".

Not good guys in a country are that countrie's problem. Look at how the US screamed Russian Interference on their silly election. Not even true but look how offended they get over any kind of interference.

Now if you are going to insinuate that the US is trying to protect the inhabitants of countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya, Iran, and on and on from the "not good guys" in their country , I have to call unadulterated bullshit on that.

Posted by: arby | Jan 11 2020 18:29 utc | 219

DontBelieveEitherPr. "The Colonel has a point when he says B. is always writing out of his Anti-US view."

What the fuck is US doing in Iraq. Trump said they were staying in Iraq to watch Iran. That was back when he grabbed Syrian oil. Now Iraq have told him to get out. Trump has told them to get stuffed and invited NATO in. Why is US surrounding Iran. Why did US kill the Iranian military official and diplomat recognised by and on diplomatic business in Iraq. Yeah like the good Colonel says, US is just doing good in the world and nobody appreciates it. Not to metion Trumps threat to attack Iranian cultural sites. Yep, US is a force for good just minding its own business in its part of the world.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 18:31 utc | 220

Fog of war

I agree but at the same time I think it tells us that Russia is not as close to Iran as some people would like to believe,
we have to remember that Russia is there with the americans, europeans regarding sanctions on Iran for its non nuclear weapons program.

Posted by: Zanon | Jan 11 2020 18:32 utc | 221

Fog of war

Not to mention:

Sputniknews: "Russian State Duma Condemns Iran's Actions But Acknowledges that Tehran was Provoked - Lawmaker".

Posted by: Zanon | Jan 11 2020 18:34 utc | 222

@ Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Jan 11 2020 18:17 utc | 213

As the IRGC official who admitted the mistake himself said, people who outright discarded missile attack were objectively correct in their judgment of the then available evidence. It's in the transcript.

And most of us did that: made the most reasonable conclusion based on the available evidence.

Everything pointed out to a Boeing engine malfunction: the fact that most passengers were Iranian (an no Americans); the fact that Iran itself told they would not use civilian targets for their retaliation; USA's history of lies and deceit; Boeing's recent history of lies and deceit (on the MAX and on the NG); the fact that the chief of the Iranian air command center publicly declared a missile attack was already discarded; the fact that some USA-aligned government quickly sided with the American version of the story.

It was only one statistical mistake in a sea of correct predictions in this blog.

We have separate the things: the downing of the plane had nothing to do with the fact that Iran is a theocracy. And the fact that Iran is a theocracy doesn't mean it isn't on the side of justice in its war against the USA. The USA is not waging war against Iran because it is a theocracy; otherwise, it wouldn't be an ally with, e.g. Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Posted by: vk | Jan 11 2020 18:39 utc | 223

The current invasion of trolls some seem to become aware of today, started just some days ago, just after "The Colonel" shut his site for comments...hence we are now awarded with reading all their full pro-US stance here whatever their administration does around the world.

The thing is that, due the line ( astonishingly honest, even I must admit...) of their original site of procedence on these events, they would had probably ended banned by "The Colonel", out of their highly likely chorus of unending complaints...to see if "The Colonel" did not shut the site in prevision of this...

Posted by: Sasha | Jan 11 2020 18:40 utc | 224

Say the airliner was equipped with spying material,with some signal caught by iranian military,that would make it ,on that very day and moment an enemy target,regardless of the passengers.Airdefense shot it down,the investigators went looking for the black boxes and the spying material,whilst all military involved were in quaranteen.They found the evidence,then Supreme Counsel or whoever is in charge decides to take the blame,in its simplest form,a mistake,any other explication could have been feeble or counterproductif.The buttonpusher plays an iranian variant of kabuki.So His Trumpship's sails lack the wind to keep on spinning cia narrative,everybody has a chew and Iran regains some respect,because indeed,the fewest government would have admitted so quickly.

This scenario would explain why after ten airliners this one was fired at.The owner of the Airplane,and some airfields and control towers in Ukraine,as well chief of the Azov bataillon,big shareholder in Oil businesses,detainer of passports that make him an Ukranian,Cypriote and Israeli at the same time.(Remember agreement between Cyprus,Greece Israel,Egypte about oil field) is one Igor Kolomoïsky,whom I think one should consider a major geostrategical player.

I remember ,when everybody seems to be under the charm of iranian spirit,a tough chess player over the millenaries in succeeding dynasties,they are masters of intrigue and cunning,there have been some machiavellis in the dynasties of Achemenides Sassanides and the other dynasties after conversion to islam.But in a sense they were more subtle,intricate ,they used to blind their opponents to the throne or unwanted heirs,instead of killing them.Some must have been afraid of having no family left.(No way,that was the Moghuls,or Seljuks,or Mamluks that practiced that sort of games of thrones)
This to say that,while I was in the last five years or so following Hajj Suleymani as they call him, on his track,in reading about Syria mainly,I myself was already under his charm,he looked so humble and concerned,a soldier with soldiers,I mean a hero to hollywood standards even,but over there they can't accept such idea.I think of him as one of the beings that will be remembered for centuries,I'm more than angry about the way MSM talks about(see also latest Crosstalk)him,and as an european I hate our governments for not giving the slightest sign of consolation,understanding or just plain condoleances to the people of Iran.Awful,are they real persons?Do they not see the crowds?

Posted by: willie | Jan 11 2020 18:43 utc | 225

Even though Iran admit Ukraine keep pushing on that Iran must be punished,

Zelensky: Step in right direction, Iran needs to do more
https://www.rt.com/news/478031-rouhani-apologizes-plane-iran-ukraine/

Most likely west will not be happy until Iran kill the person that made the mistake.

Posted by: Zanon | Jan 11 2020 18:43 utc | 226

peter au / sasha

the neo con armchair pundits had a better home at pat langs place... they don't exactly fit in here, as b is not the glorious decorated vet that pat lang is... but in fact after reading pat langs site since he turned off the commenting, pl, larry johnson and ttg have written some pretty hard hitting articles up just how fucked up the usa is at this point too... so, i suspect the newbies are ex commenters from pl's site, but just your run of the mill dig-esters of western msm spoon fed bullshite and lies.. it is hard to keep up with all that..

Posted by: james | Jan 11 2020 18:44 utc | 227

are - aren't... opps..

Posted by: james | Jan 11 2020 18:45 utc | 228

To the current invasion of new trolls, we must add the resident alleged leftist but clearly imperialist Trotskyite faction, which would excuse any criminal deed by the US so as to demonize the Islamic Iranian government.

These are the same who from theri websites and European, or non-Europena parliament seats have supported and discharged all the mayhem provoked by the US invasions and destruction of Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yugoslavia and so on...

All of them are on payroll by Soros and the rest of US oligarchic aparatchik´s NGOs networks...

Posted by: Sasha | Jan 11 2020 18:47 utc | 229

It is important to realize that even if Iran has accepted guilt etc. it is the Ukrainian International Airlines that will pay the victims under the international Montreal Convention. This is the opinion of the Canadian legal experts with a solid grounding in aviation law. I think this is subscription only but the Globe and Mail is Canada's newspaper of record: Global Mail link

Posted by: Jonathan W | Jan 11 2020 18:50 utc | 230

> But i dont think we also must paint those US
>opponents as "good guys". And the first step
>to this would be to distance ourselfs, and be more objective.
>Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Jan 11 2020 18:17 utc | 213

I don't recall any posts praising Sharia law or possible crimes committed by Iran. I don't know how it is to live in Iran. I should tell Iran to remove the sliver from their eyes? I think that's up to Iranians to sort out, which they could do if not under constant attack for the last 60 years.

As for being objective, it's impossible to forget whose boot is on my neck (and everybody else's as well). Since I live in Uncle Sam land, it is my duty to point out, as best I can, that the US is a malignant insane beast trying to stay on top by kicking down on the rest of the world.

I do agree that more observations and less speculation might be helpful. I think maybe we are socially trained to root for the home team and speculate what the coach should do, etc. by professional spectator sports.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Jan 11 2020 18:56 utc | 231

james 211

Two things that aren't real clear at the moment - The loss of communications .. a thought on that is apart from the unit commander having to make a decision without access to the big picture also if he may well have thought coms were jammed or disrupted by the enemy he would be expecting imminent attack.
The other is the plane turning. When did it turn.. from both Iranian and Ukraine initial response, the plane had turned back to the airport due to technical problems. I believe this may have been when the plane was hit - as it was turning back towards the airport. The cockpit floor was collapsed inwards due to the missile strike - according to Ukraine after inspection of the debris - and the pilots would not have turned the plane after this.
My thought is why did the air defence unit lose their communication at this time and what was the technical fault that caused the pilots to turn back to the airport.

Speculation. US cyber or EW warfare cut the coms and Boeing or more likely US operatives cut one engine via the datalink to Boeing. A well organised operation would see the coms cut then very shortly after the correct engine would be cut causing the aircraft to naturally turn to the side of the cut engine, and with an engine out they would continue turning in that direction to take them back to the airstrip. Of course the engine to be cut would would be on the side nearest the military installation causing the plane to turn towards it.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 18:56 utc | 232

@Posted by: Jonathan W | Jan 11 2020 18:50 utc | 230

Seems quite reasonable since it was UIA´s CEOs who decided to fly in such environment of a more than expected retaliation by Iran..

Posted by: Sasha | Jan 11 2020 18:59 utc | 233

@Stever #209:

“A New York Times analysis of flight path information and video of the missile strike determined that the plane stopped transmitting its signal for between 20 seconds and 30 seconds before it was hit. …”

Why was the plane not transmitting a signal for 20 to 30 seconds - this seems significant

That is, indeed, interesting, given that the Tor-M1’s missile took about 1 second to fly from the Tor-M1 to the plane.

Posted by: S | Jan 11 2020 19:00 utc | 234

As I expected, the admission by Iran was not enough.

Canadian PM doubt Iran shootdown as a mistake
https://sputniknews.com/us/202001111078010374-trudeau-says-many-questions-remain-after-irgc-takes-responsibility-for-ukrainian-plane-downing/

Posted by: Zanon | Jan 11 2020 19:07 utc | 235

james 277

I agree with that, especially the recent posts by guest authors.
Some of Pat Langs views have the stink of exceptionalism and empire,
but on the other side of the coin, he has very informative posts from
guest authors not to mention his own informative posts on internal
pecking order and goings on in the US upper echelons.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 19:07 utc | 236

The Iran apology and taking responsibility is not enough. Trudeau wants "clarity"...wants to know if the downing of the plane was indeed a "mistake". What is in his glass of water?

Let's not throw "duty of care" in the bin. The plane was in a war zone. Without any tap on the shoulder, in abundance of caution the airlines and the captain had "a duty of care" to cancel the flight.

Posted by: Likklemore | Jan 11 2020 19:12 utc | 237

Well on the other hand the elefant in the room is another air defense: The Patriots

There are serious doubts the Patriot System EVER destroy any single missile:

In a deep House Commitee about the performance of the Patriot System agains the Iraqi Scud in 1991 they said:

http://www.turnerhome.org/jct/patriot.html

"Summary.-The Patriot missile system was not the spectacular success in the Persian Gulf War that the American public was led to believe. There is little evidence to prove that the Patriot hit more than a few Scud missiles launched by Iraq during the Gulf War, and there are some doubts about even these engagements."

Nobody, never and ever has any prooof ANY Patriot interceptor has knocked-down ANY ballistic missile EVER, nor in 1991, nor in any other year, nor recently in the ballistics missiles used bu the Houhites against KSA:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/28/patriot-missiles-are-made-in-america-and-fail-everywhere/

The performance of the Patriot Systems is the equivalent of the Boeing 737Max, they do not work well, and all the USA troops are un-protected from ballistic missiles if they trust in the Patriot System


Posted by: DFC | Jan 11 2020 19:17 utc | 238

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Jan 11 2020 4:29 utc | 1

The Saker is on my "can take a look", but handle with care list.

Otherwise there was this censored comment a while ago that triggered loads of memories all the way back to 1967 in Berlin, protests against Reza Pahlavi and his SAVAK. "A friend" whose influence on the protest against the Shah I wasn't aware of, when I met him in the early 70s. As Iranian from the left he was involved in the Iranian Revolution, but had to leave again a couple of years later. I recall his fear of SAVAK before, while not having been aware of the fear of later Iranian students of the "Pasadaran". ... His regular monthly Iran Reports for the German Green Party foundation in the present. Meaning: Deeper Knowlege about the country and its history, and present political maneuvers vs fast Wikipedia knowledge.

Otherwise as German I have to admit that as German (see how much we love Trump collectively) I would deeply dislike the "cherry blossom king", as someone called him on SST, to profit from this easy to understand accident.

Posted by: moon | Jan 11 2020 19:21 utc | 239

@vk:
"As the IRGC official who admitted the mistake himself said, people who outright discarded missile attack were objectively correct in their judgment of the then available evidence. It's in the transcript.

And most of us did that: made the most reasonable conclusion based on the available evidence.

Everything pointed out to a Boeing engine malfunction: the fact that most passengers were Iranian (an no Americans); the fact that Iran itself told they would not use civilian targets for their retaliation; USA's history of lies and deceit; Boeing's recent history of lies and deceit (on the MAX and on the NG); the fact that the chief of the Iranian air command center publicly declared a missile attack was already discarded; the fact that some USA-aligned government quickly sided with the American version of the story."

Yeah sure.

"Everything pointed out to a Boeing engine malfunction:" EVERYTHING. Sure. The probility of a plane crash just in the night of Irans missle attack? The probility is so mininal, that just in the same night a plane crash happens due to engine malfunction. The numerous missile sightings..
Thats what i mean. You say EVERYTHING and discard all evidence that points into the other direction. A dogmatic marxist like you may call that scientifically, i dont. I say it is biased. And bias is never good.
If it would be the other way around, and a plane would have crashed near a US base in that night, you all would have wasted no time to blame the US.
And that is the problem. That many believe to fight US imperialism, we would need to loose all objectivity and own stance.

"It was only one statistical mistake in a sea of correct predictions in this blog."
I too said time and time again, that i agree with most posts, but when every there is a situation like this, there is a tendancy to loose objectivity when it does fit into the normal world view (how well founded that worldview otherwise may be).

We have separate the things: the downing of the plane had nothing to do with the fact that Iran is a theocracy. And the fact that Iran is a theocracy doesn't mean it isn't on the side of justice in its war against the USA. The USA is not waging war against Iran because it is a theocracy; otherwise, it wouldn't be an ally with, e.g. Saudi Arabia and Israel."

Just what i say. We need to seperate things. We need to defend values (e.g. international law) and not countries or persons. But that is the problem here: Many here and on SF want their good guys. They want to paint Russia, China, Iran, Syria, Venezuela into something they are not. They are not even allies, let alone some mystic Anti-US-"Resistance" front. They are not the saviour come to earth to save us from US imperialism.
They only defend their own real or imaginated national interests. They only sometimes align on the basis of US imperialsm, but they mostly are opposed.
Thats what i ciritize: To not seperate things, to paint things as good vs evil.
That concern more many commenters than B. himself, but sometimes, this is obvious.
I see it like RT: I expect them to critize Russias enemys, and often find pearls of wisdom and information there. But i would never expect from RT to find a real and insightful critique of Putin or Russia in general.
Same with western MSM.
That why i say: Alt. Media needs to be more than just another biased sourced (Who every that bias is founded). Only if we base our writing on values and political stances instead of a good vs bad mentality, we will have a chance to be seen as a superior alternative to MSM.
And that is the problem.

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Jan 11 2020 19:22 utc | 240

TO ALL: Those saying "Bots" invaded MOA: You just confirm what i wrote. That everyone that does not follow your groupthink, is seen as enemy.
You are just like the iditotic Trump cheerleaders that praise him for killing Soleimani, only mirrored.
You have no place left for own thought, and dissidence.
Intellectual incest.
To each his own.

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Jan 11 2020 19:27 utc | 241

Iran bears very little, if any responsibility in this matter.
The United States is entirely to blame-what has occurred is exactly what the
US government was aiming at. It has created an atmosphere of fear and panic
in the knowledge that it would create chaos-that normal government would break down
and mistakes be made.
The US plays with the lives of people. It plays God, a God dedicated to the principle of pure evil.
It plays with people's lives, the lives of the 'ants' that Harry Lime saw from above Vienna,
as a matter of course. In Gaza children with cancer cannot get treatment because the US and Israel
want to make life harder for their parents. The evil objective is to madden the people to the point
that they will rise up and kill those who oppose the Occupation. In Colombia, Bolivia, Honduras, Ecuador
and Brazil-even as we speak Death Squads-trained armed and financed-by the US and Israel stalk those
who want to reform their society. In Venezuela the supply of food and medicine is interrupted as far as
the power of the US and its allies extends.
Around the world where there are evil deeds being carried out, where children are starving, medicines are
withheld, protesters are being assassinated and militias are terrorising the population-the hands of the
United States and its allies are always evident. It was they who imported tens of thousands of wahhabis
into Afghanistan, Russia, China and the battlegrounds that we all know in order to kill, frighten and impoverish
the people. The people of Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Iran, Lebanon and far beyond- all of them have seen their
living standards diminished, their security removed their hopes of happiness systematically thwarted.
In order, evil order, to punish them, not for anything that they have done but in the hope that they will
surrender themselves to the United States and its agents, submit.
The truth is that human history has never seen a regime like that now ruling the United States and attempting
to rule the world. Nothing compares with it, the Nazis were simply malicious pygmies in comparison.
Many people from Trudeau to posters here refuse to admit what is crystal clear and what history will
confirm: all the deaths that come, daily, weekly, yearly from this assumption by the United States of
prerogatives, religion reserves for God; all the deaths that come from this juvenile playing with the lives of
ordinary people are entirely the choice of the US government.
Trudeau bears more responsibility for the deaths of these airline passengers than anyone in Iran. It was his choice to
keep the Embassy doors closed, to withdraw diplomatic representation and to join the US in its sanctions
against the Iranian people. He has made the same choice in Venezuela, where similar accidents may occur (have occurred
as in the sabotage of the power grid). People died then, people die daily and they do so because of choices made by
governments playing with the lives of the people.
Everyone of the victims would be alive today had not the mafia in Washington decided to smash up their society.
And they would almost certainly have been alive still had Trudeau and Freeland-and the four parties in Ottawa- done
, what most Canadians want them to do and disassociate themselves and Canada from the evil games Washington plays.

I hope that no Iranian is tricked into surrendering to evil. I hope that the tone of the Revolutionary Guards-one
of sincere regret and manly apology- does not inform their future moves which must be to re-double their commitment
to the defence of their country and the defeat of the most evil government the world has ever seen.

Posted by: bevin | Jan 11 2020 19:27 utc | 242

Re: Trudeau's escalating attempts at scene-stealing

The odious, opportunistic popinjay Trudeau seems to have calculated that it's time for him to upgrade his "brand" from "dashing young Bonnie Prince Justin" to "Mature Statesman with Gravitas".

Thus, his predilection for elbowing his way to the head of the Western Hegemony Official Spokesperson line and bumptiously blowing off his big bazoo.

The new beard is a "tell"; some men, especially handsome but "baby-faced" men, are susceptible to an abiding adolescent impulse to grow facial hair in order to appear more mature. It can't be a coincidence that Trudeau's beard correlates with his increased penchant for making (fatuous) bold and aggressive pronouncements on geopolitical crises.

I know that Trudeau has a pedigree that nominally puts him in the top drawer of Canada's political aristocracy. Still, he reminds me a lot of the Venezuelan golpista boy-toy Juan "Random Guy" Guaidó.

Posted by: Ort | Jan 11 2020 19:30 utc | 243

Trisha (Jan 11 2020 17:14 utc) I've made an off topic reply to your comment in the 2020-02 open thread that I hope you might find interesting :)

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jan 11 2020 19:31 utc | 244

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 18:56 utc | 232

Speculation. US cyber or EW warfare cut the coms and Boeing or more likely US operatives cut one engine via the datalink to Boeing.

Following this line of speculation, it is hard to not consider the BUAP - Boeing Uninterruptible Auto Pilot: Boeing wins patent on uninterruptible autopilot system
Boeing’s is, of course, not the first autopilot technology in existence, but this one has been designed with counterterrorism first and foremost in mind. Not only is it “uninterruptible” — so that even a tortured pilot cannot turn it off — but it can be activated remotely via radio or satellite by government agencies.


Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 11 2020 19:33 utc | 245

#199 ‘ ... Europe do its part ...’. Putin did say that, or something to that effect.

Posted by: SteveK9 | Jan 11 2020 19:34 utc | 246

Lots of questions now that we have an initial answer. What were the mechanical issues? Why did the plane stop transmitting? Why did the pilots not respond? Why the course change?
My initial skepticism that this was an accident (misidentification or mechanical) was fueled by the Ukrainian connection which still stinks to be honest.

Posted by: Sad Canuck | Jan 11 2020 19:34 utc | 247


arby | Jan 11 2020 18:29 utc | 219

„Now if you are going to insinuate that the US is trying to protect the inhabitants of countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya, Iran, and on and on from the "not good guys" in their country , I have to call unadulterated bullshit on that.“

Problem is: he did not say such a thing. So the bullshit landed on your own feet. What a pity! ;-)

Posted by: Hausmeister | Jan 11 2020 19:37 utc | 248

DontBelieveEitherPr

I dont agree with everything you said but the groupthink here is damaging. B deserve a higher quality among the commentators here.
Anyone raising a different perspective is attacked. the attack is at the same time done by a group of 3-4 specific users here so its not everyone.

I myself have been wrong in my analysis throughout the years, its not the end of the day, you admit - atleast to youself - and move on.
I have tried to broaden the perspective but it is not worth it, some people want to be stuck in their bubble.

Posted by: Zanon | Jan 11 2020 19:39 utc | 249

The fact that the plane was brought down because of the conflict initiated by Trump makes everything about it very suspicious. Just because Iran states that it is responsible does not disqualify the possibility that they were not made to make this mistake. We do not know the facts as to what the Iranian defense system saw as that Ukrainian plane was flying.

I continue to be highly suspicious of the fact that it is a Ukrainian plane. Ukraine is firmly in the Anglo-Zionist camp, period. Zelensky or not the deal was sealed when V. Nuland finished her work in Kiev. The only reason Ukraine made a deal with Russia is because it is in financial trouble and needs revenue. The West will not keep it afloat. So thinking that suddenly it is conducting its own foreign policy is incorrect.

As an aside. Does a soverign country bring in a man like this to help it run its country ?

Mikheil Saakashvili - born 21 December 1967) is a Georgian and Ukrainian politician.[7][8] He was the third President of Georgia for two consecutive terms from 25 January 2004 to 17 November 2013. From May 2015 until November 2016, Saakashvili was the Governor of Ukraine's Odessa Oblast.[1][9][10] He is the founder and former chairman of the United National Movement party.

How about this one,

Natalie Ann Jaresko is an American-born Ukrainian investment banker who served as Ukraine's Minister of Finance from December 2014 until April 2016.[1] In 20 March 2017, she was appointed as executive director of the Financial Oversight & Management Board for Puerto Rico.

or this one,
Aivaras Abromavičius is a Lithuanian-born Ukrainian investment banker and politician. On 31 August 2019 Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky appointed Abromavičius the Director General of Ukroboronprom.[1] Previously he was Ukraine's Minister of Economy and Trade starting in December 2014 (Abromavičius announced his resignation on 3 February 2016). He did not retain his post in the Groysman Government that was installed in 14 April 2016.[2]

Ukraine is a Captured State.

Thus the possibility exists that that plane may have had some equipment placed in it in Kiev that could trick the Iranian Defense system to think a craft is a danger to it. Kiev would have been a safe place to do it (reasons above). If this were true does anyone here believe that announcing this fact Public opinion would believe it ? I for one don't. Russia knows how that worked out with Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17). No matter what Iran would have said that would have been spun in the West as attempting to blame someone else. Thanks to this all attention in the Media would have been on Iran which Trump would have loved. Again, Russia knows how this was played out in Malaysia MH17 case. The average CNN viewer in that case would not see how the BUKA Russian was being used as evidence that it was Russia that shot the plane down.

Iran did the right thing in admitted that it was responsible whether it was their fault or not. There was simply no way to win in the case of having being fooled into shooting the plane down.

Posted by: Tom_LX | Jan 11 2020 19:40 utc | 250

Consider that it was initially reported that Trump would make a statement about the Iran attack around 8:45 PM EST - at about the same time that UIA Flight 752 was originally scheduled to take off.

Trump ended up not making any statement until he tweeted “All is well! [...]” at 9:45 EST - a full hour later, and also at about the same time that UIA Flight 752 actually did take off.

The timings of these events may not be coincidental.

Posted by: Cynica | Jan 11 2020 19:42 utc | 251

Syrian an air defense was fooled by the Israelis into shooting that Russian intelligence plane down.

Posted by: lysias | Jan 11 2020 19:51 utc | 252

Cynica
Even for Trump, that "all is well" after Iran had publicly and openly hit
two US bases with precision missiles was odd.
At that point Trump was just sitting back to watch the shit hit the fan for
the Iranians as the terrorist operation to take down the passenger jet was successful

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 19:53 utc | 253

Tom_LX @250

Excellent points! I would add that Saakashvili was sentenced in absentia by a Georgian court - he's a wanted man.

Posted by: spudski | Jan 11 2020 20:02 utc | 254

Found from @TLAVagabond - LastAmericanVagabond
Via - @JesseNorrish
We also cannot discount the possibility that Iran is not in as much control of its Tor-M1 as it would like. Leaks in 2012 indicated that Russia had given Israel codes to Iran's Tor-M1's. And if that is so, Iran likely would not want this publicly known.

Posted by: Stever | Jan 11 2020 20:02 utc | 255

Posted by: Ort | Jan 11 2020 19:30 utc | 243

This is a perfect description of Trudeau Jr. He is an embarrassment to Canada - like his mother was. It is clear to me which parents' brain he inherited.

Posted by: Activist Potato | Jan 11 2020 20:03 utc | 256

According to the leaked document, Israel gave Russia the "data link codes" for unmanned aerial vehicles that the Jewish state sold to Georgia, and in return, Russia gave Israel the codes for Tor-M1 missile defense systems that Russia sold Iran.
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4196367,00.html

Posted by: dave | Jan 11 2020 20:19 utc | 257

>That why i say: Alt. Media needs to be more than just
>another biased sourced (Who every that bias is founded).
>Only if we base our writing on values and political stances
>instead of a good vs bad mentality, we will have a chance
>to be seen as a superior alternative to MSM.
>Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Jan 11 2020 19:22 utc | 240

Every writer is biased. Eew York Times and Washington Compost claim to be objective, but they are the most biased and hypocritical of all. Bias isn't the problem. Does anyone expect the "Industrial Worker" newspaper to not be biased towards the interests of workers?

Trying to hide or disguise bias with lies and lying by omission is the problem. What makes alternatives worthwhile is when they have accurate information (as much as possible) and follow the motto:


The job of the journalist is to Comfort the Afflicted and Afflict the Comfortable.

Deciding who is "Comfortable" and who is "Afflicted" is not always straight forward, just as it is not always clear what events and facts are true or even relevant. "I don't know" is frequently an honest answer and maybe it is not used enough. I object to personal attacks, appeals to authority, and dogma. Sometimes I do wonder if it is possible to have a group anywhere without groupthink and dogma. A good question for sociologists, except most of their research is extremely suspect, like so much else in this world.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Jan 11 2020 20:20 utc | 258

The FAA banned flights of commercial airplanes over Tehran 2 hours before the plane came down. Note, over Tehran, not over Iran. That's quite specific. Communication was lost when the officer had to make a decision. Communication jamming is part of modern warfare. Maybe this is a thwarted attempt by the US at a "disproportionate response" to Iranian strikes. Maybe this is why Trump is not that excited and had to take drugs before performing his Iran speech.

Posted by: E Mo Scél | Jan 11 2020 20:36 utc | 259

Even if true, nobody is going to believe a mistake of this magnitude is possible , as I explained in an earlier comment. The excuse will not be believed. Instead people will claim they did it intentionally thinking they could get away with it by confessing and saying it was a mistake. For those Iranians who think Iran did not do enough to retaliate (no deaths) they wont believe it was not intentional, so this might appease them. Perhaps Iran considered this. My guess is this blows up in Irans face. Huge blunder on their part, one way or another.

As for the aircraft not signaling for 20-30 seconds, thats interesting. That could be sabotage, and could explain the “accident”. If that was the case, I would say it was not an accident, it was intentional and caused by those who sabotaged the plane. If true , by making an admission and not pointing this out they have made an even bigger blunder, since its going to get lost in the fog created by the war hawks.

Posted by: Pft | Jan 11 2020 20:37 utc | 260

Prometheus - Thank you for your information. I previously thought the transponder signal would identify the plane as a civilian aircraft but one question remains for me: even without IFF would the airtraffic control not (verify the identity)and be in contact with the pilot when the course is changed? Is there no coordination between civlian and military air-control? (especially in such a tense situation)

(the Ukrainain plane turned around - why?)

Still ...despite the admission it is strange that an aviation expert like Peter Haisenko (retired Lufthansa pilot with special technical knowledge who knows Tehran airport well) came to a very different conclusion: (excerpt from German Original - my translation)

Weil mittlerweile bekannt ist, dass die Boeing nach dem ersten Aufprall noch etwa 500 Meter über den Boden geschrammt ist, darf man davon ausgehen, dass sie in flachem Winkel den Boden berührt hat, etwa wie bei einer Landung. Sie ist also nicht „ungespitzt“ in den Boden gerammt.

Since it is now known the Boing grazed the ground for about 500 metres after impact it is reasonable to assume that she touched the ground at a flat-angle, like in a regular landing. [...]

Das deutet wiederum darauf hin, dass sich die Piloten in ihrer Notlage gar nicht bewusst waren, wie nahe sie dem Boden bereits sind und völlig unerwartet Bodenkontakt hatten. [...]

This is an indication that the Pilots were not aware of their emergency (how close to the ground they were) and unexpectedly touched the ground. [...]


Fest steht wohl, dass die ukrainische Boeing nach dem Start einen Motorschaden hatte. Und zwar einen soliden, mit Feuer und Totalausfall.

It appears to be certain that the Ukrainian Boeing suffered an engine breakdown after take-off, a severe one with fire and total failure.


Zunächst stelle ich fest, dass es nahezu unmöglich ist, ein Passagierflugzeug in dieser Flugphase abzuschießen. Man müsste schon jemanden mit einer kleinen Boden-Luft-Rakete im erwarteten Abflugkorridor platzieren, der dann dem abfliegenden Jet die Rakete hinterher schießt. Dieses hitzesuchende Projektil könnte dann einen Motor treffen, was aber kein zwingender Grund für einen Absturz ist. Mit einem Motor kann das Flugzeug weiter fliegen, wenn die Rahmenumstände entsprechend aller Vorschriften gesetzt worden sind. Eine größere, aufwendigere Flugabwehreinrichtung scheidet für diese Flugphase und den Ort aus. Nicht nur wegen der geringen Höhe über Grund, sondern auch, weil es solche Anlagen in dieser Gegend nicht gibt. Wenn, dann befinden sie sich im weiteren Umkreis, um Angriffe aus größerer Höhe weit vor der Stadt abzuwehren. Warum ist es dann überhaupt zu dem Absturz gekommen?

https://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2020/ist-die-ukrainische-b-737-in-teheran-abgeschossen-worden/

Haisenko asserts that " it is nearly impossible to shoot down a passenger plane in this phase of the flight. In order to do that you'd need to place a (sort of) MANPAD in the expected flight-corridor and the heat-seaking missile could then destroy one of the engines.But this does not automatically lead to the crashing of the plane since it is able to fly with one engine [...] A bigger anti-aircraft system is not suitable for this phase of the flight ... these systems aim to intercept (destroy) targets flying at much higher altitutes and farther away from the cities ... So why did the crash happen?

Obviously he wrote that before the Iranian admission was published and with limited knowledge but still one wonders if electronic warfare played a role and certain parties wanted that plane to crash ... (at least a closer look at the passenger list seems advisable)


Posted by: Andromeda | Jan 11 2020 20:38 utc | 261

Why would True Dope be insinuating that Iran shot the airliner down intentionally?
What possible reason could there be for Iran to want to shoot down a regular
commercial airliner full of civilians? Iranian civilians at that?

Unless...

Unless True Dope knows something that we don't. Something like those civilians on
the flight not being just regular civilians?

I am open to suggestions as to why True Dope would think Iran would be inclined to
shoot down a commercial flight full of Iranian civilians on purpose. Some reason
other than those civilians not really being civilians, that is.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 11 2020 20:43 utc | 262

I'm not entirely at ease with the idea that the people manning the missiles made a mistake. They were thinking and they had a decision to make with the information they had. Robustness is about keeping the priority mechanisms working when not everything is working as it is supposed to, because systems are not perfect, because people are not perfect, because adversaries are degrading systems. When communications are malfunctioning or being jammed. One of the tradeoffs is risk of friendly fire. Also I don't think Iranian military are running on a shoestring but they do not have large budgets. Then when dealing with an attack(or a high chance of an attack) of a very powerful adversary then I imagine that people will face very difficult decisions and accept risks.
It is possible that the people manning the missiles were performing adequately. Maybe the systems may be improved, but maybe real improvement is too hard to achieve realistically.

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jan 11 2020 20:47 utc | 263

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Jan 11 2020 18:56 utc | 231

I do agree that more observations and less speculation might be helpful. I think maybe we are socially trained to root for the home team and speculate what the coach should do, etc. by professional spectator sports.

Yes and that warfare nowadays has become a computer game. Everone is a keyboard warrier.

Unfortunately, some keyboards mean people will die.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2020 20:53 utc | 264

Iran deserves respect, if only because it openly and honestly admitted its responsibility for what happened. This shows the maturity and courage of the political and military leadership of this country.
It is clear that the plane was shot down unintentionally. It is also obvious that Iran was provoked by the actions of the United States.

This is called life. That happens. And not only that. Human factor. We cannot avoid this and 100% eliminate all risks.

In 1914, an idiot killed a monarch, which led to a large-scale war and the death of millions of people. Human factor. Soldiers accidentally make the wrong buttons. Workers at an oil factory smoke in the wrong place, resulting in huge fires. People do not notice an extinct burner on a gas stove, resulting in an explosion, collapse of the house and death of people. Vacationers tourists did not extinguish after themselves a fire in the forest, as a result of which a giant fire covers thousands of hectares of territory. During the invasion of Iraq in 2003, American Patriot systems destroyed a friendly British Tornado fighter bomber (in addition to the destroyed American fighters). In February 2017, the Russian Aerospace Forces mistakenly attacked the Turkish military in northern Syria. In 2001, Ukrainian air defense, conducting military exercises, shot down a Russian passenger plane TU-154 over the Black Sea, 78 people died. So on and so on... The technique and equipment is imperfect. People all the more.

The Iranian situation is very similar to what happened in September 2018. Syrian air defense shot down a Russian military plane, provoked by deliberate actions by Israeli aviation. Just to remind that the Russian side has made it clear who is the true culprit of the tragedy. In the case of Iran, the same thing. It is one thing if the plane crashes as a result of a pilot error or a technical malfunction. But when it is now clear that plane was shot down, and the Iranian air defense acted as it was provoked by the actions of the United States, then the guilt of the United States only increases.

Posted by: alaff | Jan 11 2020 21:00 utc | 265

Bevin 242

That is one of the best posts I have ever read and I have read more than a few.
Never a truer word.
If it needed a precis.......
Madeleine Albright.
The deaths of of 500,000 Iraqi children is a price worth paying.
This from a woman who had played a leading role in the destruction of Yugoslavia and the handing of the Serbian province of Kosovo to the KLA a forerunner of Al Qaeda and ISIS.
Today a narco criminal islamic state - and a base for the bloodletting and birthing of the European Caliphate.
And unlimited proxies for the USA War Of!! Terror across the Middle East.
Pure evil.

Posted by: Emily | Jan 11 2020 21:01 utc | 266

Considering a map of Iran, how is it even theoretically possible that a large enemy aircraft first shows up in Tehran without prior detection if it supposedly flew from a non-friendly territory? The supposed scenario does not make a lot of sense.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 11 2020 21:01 utc | 267

Sadly due to their own incompetence, Iran lost there moral high ground!
A great disappointment to those of us who supported Iran through thick and thin.

I'm not convinced this is a moral issue.

Posted by: harold | Jan 11 2020 21:02 utc | 268

I am repeating my first comment for context sake:

The FAA banned flights of commercial airplanes over Tehran 2 hours before the plane came down. Note, over Tehran, not over Iran. That's quite specific. Communication was lost when the officer had to make a decision. Communication jamming is part of modern warfare. Maybe this is a thwarted attempt by the US at a "disproportionate response" to Iranian strikes. Maybe this is why Trump is not that excited and had to take drugs before performing his Iran speech.

Adding:

This would also explain why this is the first time the US did not respond to a state attacking US institutions/military bases. The Us, in fact, did respond: “Let this serve as a WARNING that if Iran strikes any Americans, or American assets, we have targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD. The USA wants no more threats!”

we have (!) targeted (that must mean there were plans for imminent actions in place, it's not saying "we will target") Iranian sites, some at a very high level (!), very fast (!) and very hard.

Their response went horribly wrong. Maybe a US drone was found. Maybe the US jammed communication systems. It's all speculation but it could be that the US response is the cause for the shooting down of the plane. It is a mystery to me why the airport was not closed down that night, esp. in view of the FAA warning that specifically addresses Tehran. The Iranian civil flights authority should have known about this, or is information of this kind proprietary, i.e. not shared across countries/systems? The FAA is a lead aviation agency, it's not as if the aviation agency of Tristan da Cunha had issued such a ban.

The FAA banning US aircraft flying over Tehran after Iran had struck the bases - my gut tells me the US had planned and were executing a response involving a target in Tehran which resulted in the plane being targeted by Iranian air defense systems... the jamming of communication systems (which would have been part of the US response) would be the direct cause for the plane being targeted. If this is true the US has this blood on their hands, not Iran. Again, that's why Trump was clearly under the influence of some drugs. Because that blood is on his hands, or rather, his big mouth and big ego.

...

“Let this serve as a WARNING that if Iran strikes any Americans, or American assets, we have targeted 52 Iranian sites (representing the 52 American hostages taken by Iran many years ago), some at a very high level & important to Iran & the Iranian culture, and those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD."

Posted by: E Mo Scel | Jan 11 2020 21:03 utc | 269

Daily Telegraph with explanations
(before Iran confessed)

How would the passenger plane have been accidentally targeted?

That is less clear, but is one of the challenges facing any missile operator. While military aircraft will plot course to avoid radar, civilian airliners are equipped with transponders that identify the craft and their flight path set and share it with military bases in the area.

Theoretically, the Ukrainian Boeing 737-800 should have been identified as a civilian craft on any radar. But if the Western assessment is true, this incident will join other tragic incidents of civilian planes being shot down by anti-aircraft weaponry.

In 2014, Malaysia Airline Flight 17 was suspected to have been inadvertently shot down by Russian missiles, though Moscow has consistently denied any involvement. And in 1988, a US warship engaging with Iranian gunboats in the Persian Gulf, the USS Vincennes, shot down an Iranian passenger plane after mistaking it for a jet fighter, killing all 290 people on board.

They have a nice map of Iran's rocket range. The map explains the Russian attitude towards Iran which is complex. Iran's rockets do NOT reach the USA but they reach the whole of the Middle East and a large part of Russia.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2020 21:08 utc | 270

you guys must be the michael jordans of your jobs. so the air controller is trying to make contact with a pilots that is not responding back immediately which they do almost always right away. then air controller is trying to call the military base controllers to give them an answer but is unable to before the plane started banking towards one side. and he is wetting his pants a little knowing he should push the responsibility to others. the SAM defense teams are scrambling to check on all objects in the air the entire night, while narrowing it down to one, where its thermal and radar signature would be larger than normal. the military probably knowing they just launched missiles for an operation in Iraq is bracing itself and also simultaneously trying to hammer the airport controller back about whether this is a mishap or something larger like a threatening suicidal plane and they give their best assessment to their officer of the situation which is it looks grim. the officer is probably on his cellphone now if the coms are down to guess who his superiors, if that doesn't work its porter private who happens to own a pony that flies and will ride his beast into the sky to ask the pilot himself because they have time like that....all in the meantime each of these jobs must report to their managers/officers in charge of the situation. also maybe the base had something important or someone important. so therefore the risk to have it land on top of them or somewhere else like in the "middle of your fucking capital" a presidential/religious house necessitates risk. whether the defense personnel got permission from high ups is not really the main point here. you are to assess the situation, can you do it? make the right call? it is a lot tougher than anything jordan did on the basketball court that's for sure.

1. putting a no fly zone over iran/tehran would say you are conducting an operation no? i guess every time any other country goes to war they should just make it obvious for everyone else.
2. the plane is laden with fuel and based on past experienced has been turned into a weapon
3. the missile worked as intended but only too well.

it is better if iran lets off some steam. iran basically had their president killed this week, buried him and had a stampede, full of anger and vengeance, and ready to retaliate against USA with full force and probably know they will fight saudi head on and this happens. this has to be the luckiest break for USA if you really evaluate the situation. please tell me you would do a lot better of a job and what exactly you would do better in the given situation since in deduction one can take its time.

Posted by: jason | Jan 11 2020 21:20 utc | 271

To all the smart asses:Yes Iran should have closed the airport but other have some responsibility too. The Ukraine for example. Allowing planes to fly in to what is practically a war zone. Not that thei have done it before..

Posted by: mikh | Jan 11 2020 21:29 utc | 272

Daily Mail reports that a "prominent pro-Iran militia commander has been killed by unidentified gunmen in Iraq. High-level Popular Mobilization Forces leader Taleb Abbas Ali al-Saedi was shot dead late on Saturday". PMF is the Karbala Brigade. Appears to be assassination. Daily Mail appears to be first report.

Posted by: ADKC | Jan 11 2020 21:31 utc | 273

Iranian military presentation which shows flight path, at what position in the turn
the aircraft was hit and location of SAM site in relation to the plane.
https://twitter.com/AbasAslani/status/1215942737557671936

The aircraft was hit when it had turned directly towards the Tor unit, at that point a
turn of nearly ninety degrees which I take it was located at the military site.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 21:34 utc | 274

@ 232 peter au quote.. "My thought is why did the air defense unit lose their communication at this time and what was the technical fault that caused the pilots to turn back to the airport." yes.. good question which leaves open the boeing was being used for warfare..this also dovetails with the FAA announcement on no flights over tehran ( as opposed to iran hat tip to E Mo Scél) which on one level makes sense and on another, not..

@ bevin.. thanks for saying all that... your posts need to be read far and wide..

@251 cynica.. yes, interesting coincidences..

@ 262 william gruff.. if you look at the list of the passengers, the names are almost all iranian sounding names - young people with some kids.. it is always possible what you suggest, but i give that very low odds..

@ 267 norwegian... the only answer is that the plane as in 9-11 was being used as a weapon.. when it made the turn was shortly before the decision to shoot it from what i am reading..

@ ort, and others on trudeau... i think there is not much to read into him or anything he says... he is pretty vacuous, empty suit as i see it.. just a typical pompous capricorn, like pompeo.. there birthdays are 5 days apart... a couple of first rate jackasses, trying to climb to the top of the ladder and not much else.. both of them serving 5 liars as best they can for another promotion i suppose..

Posted by: james | Jan 11 2020 21:35 utc | 275

https://twitter.com/ flightradar24/ status/ 121588985830202163

Flight Radar 24 already pushed back at that flight did not deviate from the normal path of recent flights.

Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 11 2020 21:35 utc | 276

If anyone is trying to read one of these 'broken' wide pages in the CIA's Google Chrome browser on a desktop or laptop before b fixes it: You can temporarily fix it yourself to be readable - kind of. I'm too lazy to have all the other browsers loaded, so someone else will have to explain how to do it in those if it's possible. Chrome? Yeah, I know and have use it for a specific reason.

MoA web pages

You're really only looking at a copy of b's web page in the web browser on your computer, not the master copy on b's server. Chrome will let you edit any page you're looking at - it won't affect anything on MoA or cause b to hunt you down like a rat for hacking his site. If you screw anything up, you can just reload the page and it will grab a new copy from MoA. (I'll explain later how to hack into the IRCG's rocket and missile control computers)

The usual suspect is a huge, long link to a web page that WordPad (MoA) will automatically change into an orange, underlined, clickable link. Thanks, WordPad! Scan through the huge, wide pages checking messages for that kind of link.

Jonathan W's post 230 has the problematic link. (Jonathan: I do it myself here if I haven't posted in a while. Readers on other sites my prefer to see the entire text of the link always. Which is fine unless the editor automatically converts it to a clickable link as well. I'm getting too old to remember which way to use on every site, so I end up breaking comments here myself if I forget).

Step 1: highlight that link because we're going to blow it away - for now.

Step 2: Google Chrome has a built-in editor meant for web page code development called DevTools. It's kind of a web page, itself. You start it by RIGHT-clicking your mouse on the highlighted link so the little menu comes up, then choosing Inspect.

That should split your page, with the right side being web code-looking garbage with one line highlighted in blue. Note that the right side has its own little 'x' to close it on its own menu bar. You'll need that in a second.

Step 3: Move your mouse over to the right side and right-click on that highlighted part. That should bring up a slightly different little menu. The only thing you need there is Delete Element third from the top. Do IT! Magic happens...

Last step: Close the Satanic CIA DevTool app by using the 'x' on the extreme right side of IT'S menu. Do it! (Don't accidentally use the main Chrome 'X' that closes Chrome. You'll get angry and kick poor poochie. He doesn't deserve that! Calm down.Try again.)

The MoA page should be fixed temporarily for your viewing pleasure unless there are other to-long linked links you need to chop out. If you close and reopen the page or reload it, it will revert back to the 30-yard wide version. You need to go on another Highlight-DevTool-Chop jihad.

Good luck, Mr. Gorsky.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jan 11 2020 21:37 utc | 277

@273 adkc... this is the game now - knock off all the high ranking pmu leaders... typical usa-israel tactic... pmu were dealing effectively with isis - that essentially explains why usa-israel want to knock off the pmu leadership.. upside down reality..

Posted by: james | Jan 11 2020 21:37 utc | 278

@Stever #255, @dave #257: In early 2012, Wikileaks started publishing a database of 5 million internal emails of private “intelligence company” Stratfor. An email from that database written by Reva Bhalla describes his meeting with his “Mexican source/friend” who “is getting shadier by the day” and who told him about an alleged swap of “codes” between Israel and Russia. Go read the email and ask yourself if you believe the story. Remember, this is not a State Department cable written by a career diplomat, this is just an email from someone describing his meeting with a Mexican ex-cop. That’s all. How would a Mexican ex-cop know about a deal between Israel and Russia? And more importantly, why would Russia give away “codes” to its air defense systems to anyone and thus ruin its reputation as a reliable arms exporter? And, of course, you should ask yourself: is it even possible to give away “codes” to an air defense system? Aren’t these “codes” changed by an arms buyer, just like you set a password on your computer? The whole story is obviously BS. Just because something is published in Wikileaks doesn’t mean it’s true. You have to look at the source and evaluate its credibility.

Posted by: S | Jan 11 2020 21:43 utc | 279

From January 6

America's Stealth Weapons: Can Iran Shoot Down a B-2 or F-35? - We might find out.."


This Trump victory speech he postponed that night - did they finally not risk Iran's air defense at the prize of the civilian flight?

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2020 21:45 utc | 280

According to this Iran has fired this system at other civilian aircraft. From the news in 2012:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/03/world/middleeast/wary-of-israel-iran-is-said-to-blunder-in-strikes.html

“Iranian air defense units have taken inappropriate actions dozens of times, including firing antiaircraft artillery and scrambling aircraft against unidentified or misidentified targets,” noted a heavily classified Pentagon intelligence report, which added that the Iranian military’s communications were so inadequate and its training deficiencies so significant that “misidentification of aircraft will continue."

Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 11 2020 21:46 utc | 281

ADKC

Tragic to watch how US & Israel keep killing without no reprecussion. Iraq have become a hell hole for iranians where you simply cannot trust nobody.

Posted by: Zanon | Jan 11 2020 21:52 utc | 282

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 21:34 utc | 274

You are probably right about the turning back to the airport because of technical problems. That was the first the Iranians said and that was probably the communication they had with the plane.

I guess Iranian air defense was quite successful as the US et al certainly had planned some stunt to overcome them.

The US is sending B-52 bombers to a Middle East hub amid tensions with Iran

Six US Air Force B-52 bombers are being dispatched to Diego Garcia, an Indian Ocean island that acts as a US military hub in the region. A US official reportedly said that the bombers would be available for operations against Iran but stressed that their deployment does not mean such operations has been ordered.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 11 2020 21:53 utc | 283

Here I am again. Following up on what I just commented, the jamming was probably supposed to render the Iranian air defense systems not functional while the US were responding - targeting something in the Tehran area. It did not quite work so the cover they had picked, the Ukrainian plane, got shot down? I am thinking of a comment here that said Trump originally wanted to make a statement around the time the plane was supposed to take off, but only tweeted around the time it actually took off, possibly in the belief all was going according to the plan he had been presented with and approved. Those (52) targets had already been identified before they even killed Suleimani, after all, and some of them were high level. High level in Iran highly likely means Tehran. The ploy failed, the plane got shot down. Like I said, my gut tells me that Trump's big mouthed threat was real, that Trump's behavior after the Iranian strike was unusual and the fact he was drugged when he made the Iran statement are linked and point into a certain direction. I have no other explanation as to why there was no obvious response from the US after the Iranian strike, esp. in view of the reports that there was a lot of commotion in the air and in view of the FAA ban. And then Pompeo and the defense secretary with all their pushing for war with Iran, prepping Trump along with Pence. We will see how this unfolds further but for the sake of the victims this must be cleared up. They won't come back to life but it might prevent the death of more human beings. This here, this stinks.

Posted by: E Mo Scel | Jan 11 2020 21:53 utc | 284

The guy who just made the most honest and complete, detailed admission in modern history by telling the world his troops shot down the Ukrainian airliner is the same guy who said nine planes departed the US base in Iraq with wounded, bound for Israel, after the Iranian missile strike. Would he lie about those planes and tell the truth about the accidental shooting down of the Ukrainian flight?

Posted by: Bruce | Jan 11 2020 21:57 utc | 285

In reply to Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 21:34 utc | 274

The Flight Radar 24 data shows the flight flew the same standard path of all the other departures that day.

https://twitter.com/ flightradar24/ status/ 121588985830202163

Posted by: Bill Smith | Jan 11 2020 21:58 utc | 286

By not closing the airspace they used the airliners as human shield against potential USAF attacks.

Posted by: dave | Jan 11 2020 21:59 utc | 287

By not closing the airspace they used the airliners as human shield against potential USAF attacks.
Same thing what the Ukrainians did.

Posted by: dave | Jan 11 2020 22:01 utc | 288

@Bill Smith #276, #286: Your Twitter links don’t work (even after removing the spaces). Might want to check what you’re posting before posting it.

Posted by: S | Jan 11 2020 22:05 utc | 289

The "fault" on th IR air defence could easily be from Mossad sleeper tech and or software too, being previously installed anywhere it mattered for a future deployment.
It could possibly have been given some "help" from a meticulously planned US T.R mission timmed to dispense "signatures" related to an raid on Teheran. Analyzing the lightning fast response time IR air defence experts disclosed as a reaction time window (10 secs) the "release" could have appeared closer to the airport and behind IR air force patrols close the border.

So I will recheck my regional cultural sites map data and terrain anaglyphs reporting highest elevation mountain tops and geo storm and weather measurements, and do some geometry with algorithms keeping always Golden Mean ratio in mind.
Because this is what you do to identify US T.R. missions on foreigh sites.
For local US deployments you just point assets towards the greater airspace area governed by the joint US Air/Navy bases where an 7.1 earthquake shook in late summer at 7th of July (EU time).
So here is a scared response to the event from the entire air ranges Cmndr that keeps a personal blog dedicated to christian prayers AND random Quotes from the Christian Bible...
Also note his recent Bible quote which was made after Netta visited Greece and Pompeo Ukraine and Cyprus at same dates as Qassem Suleimany assasination op.
Link: http://prayatlunch.us/one-we-intend-to-win/ (July earthquake prayer) "One We Intent To Win".
Link: https://prayatlunch.us/dragged-to-safety/ (Suleimani assasination prayer) "Dragged to Safety"

They sure have some straaaaaange people there at those black projects in US...

Posted by: Qparticle | Jan 11 2020 22:08 utc | 290

E Mo Scel 284

The Ukraine plane was the target and the operation was successfull.
this was the only way US could strike Iran without Iran striking US bases throughout the regin plus Israel.
When Trump threatened strikes against 52 cultural sites if Iran retaliated for the killing of Soleimani, Iran said Isreal would also be hit (it has been noticeable US and Isreal have beeing trying pass of US as threatening Iran as indipendent of Isreal).
This is when the Trump admin and Israel would have settled on the takedown of a civian craftby Iran air defence. This makes Iran look fools in the eyes of fools as has occurred here and not the highly professional force they truly are.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 22:14 utc | 291

Iranians have gathered in the streets of Tehran to demand the resignation of Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei after the regime admitted it had mistakenly shot down a civilian passenger plane.

Angry crowds gathered on Saturday night in at least four locations in Tehran, chanting 'death to liars' and calling for the country's supreme leader to step down over the tragic military blunder, video from the scene shows.

What began as mournful vigils for Iranian lives lost on the flight soon turned to outrage and protest against the regime, and riot police quickly cracked down, firing tear gas into the crowd.

'Death to the Islamic Republic' protesters chanted, as the regime's security forces allegedly used ambulances to sneak heavily armed paramilitary police into the middle of crowds to disperse the demonstration.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7876363/Iranian-protesters-Tehran-turn-against-regime-military-admits-shooting-plane.html

I don't blame the Iranians protesting the unnecessary deaths of their compatriots through sheer incompetence and lack of coordination among civil and military officials. They clearly should have grounded all commercial flights. Their air defense units should have at least the basic ability to discern between a commercial jet and military aircraft & missiles. If they are this incompetent or their systems are so poor how do they expect to withstand the onslaught of an air attack by the US that would include thousands of missiles and thousands of sorties a day! Tehran will be flattened.

Posted by: Sam | Jan 11 2020 22:21 utc | 292

Sam

So 1 mistake is now to outdo anything for a state?
Do you claim this attack below by the US were on purpose or accident?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Posted by: Zanon | Jan 11 2020 22:24 utc | 293

Bill Smith 286

Flight radar only have what civilian chanels tell them and an aircraft goes off the screen when the transponder is stopped.
Military radar does not rely on automated transmissions from an aircraft. For the last seconds, the Iranian presentation will show what flight radar cannot.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 22:27 utc | 294

Another regime change operation in Iran. Likely to be as unsuccessful as the previous ones.

Posted by: lysias | Jan 11 2020 22:29 utc | 295

uk warmongers hard at it again..

U.K. says ambassador briefly arrested in Tehran amid PS752 protests

Britain's Foreign Office confirmed on Saturday that the country's ambassador in Tehran was briefly detained by Iranian authorities, denouncing the arrest as a "flagrant violation of international law."

i don't recall him saying about about qassems murder in baghdad... no fucking surprise from the uk here..

Posted by: james | Jan 11 2020 22:32 utc | 296

Saker piece on CIA at Ukraine headquarters complete with photo of US flag flying alongside Ukie flag. Ukraine begins flights to Iran not long after this.

https://thesaker.is/us-flag-proudly-flies-over-the-sbu-building-in-kiev/
"Well, we all knew that the last floor of the SBU (the Ukrainian terror police) building in Kiev was fully occupied by US CIA agents and that no Ukrainians access to it. But this is even better. Apparently, the US decided to fly its flag on the building’s main entrance, just next to the Ukrainian one. See for yourself:"

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 11 2020 22:34 utc | 297

As we are highly likely about to read here the magnificent outcome of the Merkel/Putin meeting in Moscow by the usual Putin cheerleaders, some rmeinder of facts about the EU´s, and gus Germany´s position on all this and a good initiative by an awaken German citizen whoc smells of rat...

Killing a General

The United States has murdered one of Iran's top personalities who was officially visiting a friendly country on a diplomatic mission.

The message of the assassination of Gasem Soleimani is the persistence of Washington in the effort to keep the world's first energy region revolt and prevent any distension between Iran and Saudi Arabia...

(...)Soleimani was a great strategist who achieved three notable victories in the last seventeen years: He was one of the organizers of the armed resistance to the American occupier in Iraq after the 2003 invasion, played a great role in the expulsion of the Islamic State from Iraq and defeated then the jihadist conglomerate in Syria (Islamic State, Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, etc.) financed and supported by the CIA and the Gulf oil monarchies. It was Soleimani who in 2015 convinced Vladimir Putin of the advisability of helping the Syrian government militarily, which has ended up restoring its control of the country by thwarting a new regime change operation that has resulted in another huge slaughter.

(...)Since Friday, January 3, all commentators announced an Iranian response to this "declaration of war" by Trump, or his generals, does not matter. It is forgotten that this war has been a fact for many years. Historically it began with the coup d'etat against Mossadeq, the Iranian prime minister who nationalized oil, and continued with the reaction to the Khomeinist Revolution of 1979, which induced the West to provoke the bloody war between Iraq and Iran in the 1980s with hundreds of thousands of dead.

(...)The unilateral withdrawal of the United States, in May 2018, from the nuclear agreement reached with Iran, as well as the sanctions suffered by that country, the murders of Iranian scientists and the attacks, sanctions and the financial and oil blockade that suffocates the Iranian economy, form Part of that war. For 19 months, Iranian oil exports, which in 2017 were 2.5 million barrels per day, have fallen to a few hundred thousand as a result of Trump's sanctions.

(...)And in the meantime in Europe ...

On Sunday, January 5, 48 hours after the murder in Baghdad, the leaders of the three main European powers, Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron and Boris Johson, released their joint statement. In it the murder of Soleimani is not even mentioned. ”We have denounced the recent attacks on coalition troops in Iraq and are deeply concerned about the negative role played by Iran in the region, especially through the guards of the revolution and of the al-Quds unit under the command of General Soleimani”, says the statement. "We especially call on Iran to refrain from more violence", it continues. In other personal statements Johnson told Trump that Soleimani "posed a threat to all our interests" and that "we do not regret his death". Macron expressed concern about the destabilizing role of the forces led by the assassinated general and German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas stated that the General "had left a trail of devastation and blood in the Middle East" and that "the European Union had good reasons to have him on its list of terrorists". This statement prompted Tehran to summon the German ambassador and censor him for his support of the "terrorist attack by the United States". For its part, the president of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, has held Iran alone responsible for escalating tensions in the Middle East and has justified the murder as a reaction to the provocations suffered by the Americans in Iraq. Once again the "European foreign policy" is portrayed.

It is in Germany, at the base of Ramstein, where the command and control point of drone attacks by US forces is located. An anonymous German citizen has filed a complaint in the town of Zweibrücken to be elucidated if the murder was piloted from Ramstein. Such action being a violation of international law and German law, it has filed a complaint "against all suspects of such crime in Germany and the United States." Those who still believe in the European "rule of law" for international purposes, can hold on to this symbolic gesture without the slightest future.

.


Posted by: Sasha | Jan 11 2020 22:39 utc | 298

This is a good related video on "Debunking the info on Qasem Soleimani"

Worth your time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5y-NCc6EOM

Right now in Tehran protests have broken out (Color Revolution) calling for Ali Khamenei to step down because of the plan was shot down.

This group is involved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farashgard

They are funded by NED. https://www.ned.org/

This was all planned in advance.

Iran was setup. This is a chess-move for regime change.

Posted by: Irate | Jan 11 2020 22:41 utc | 299

So when Iran is attacked by the west, dumb iranians think it is a good time to bring regime change by staging these protests we are now seeing? Treachery anyone?
Iran seems corrupted by these ignorant group of people which apparently have no idea how much chaos such a goal of regime change would bring right now. Completely reckless.

Posted by: Zanon | Jan 11 2020 22:42 utc | 300

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