In Iraq The U.S. Is Again An Occupation Force As It Rejects To Leave As Demanded
Iraq's Prime Minister Adel Abdul-Mahdi is following Iraq's Parliament decision to remove all foreign forces from Iraq. But his request for talks with the U.S. about the U.S. withdrawal process was answered with a big "F*** You":
Iraq’s caretaker prime minister asked Washington to start working out a road map for an American troop withdrawal, but the U.S. State Department on Friday bluntly rejected the request, saying the two sides should instead talk about how to “recommit” to their partnership.Thousands of anti-government protesters gathered in the capital and southern Iraq, many calling on both Iran and America to leave Iraq, reflecting anger and frustration over the two rivals — both Baghdad’s allies — trading blows on Iraqi soil.
The request from Prime Minister Adel Abdul-Mahdi pointed to his determination to push ahead with demands for U.S. troops to leave Iraq, stoked by the American drone strike on Jan. 3 that killed top Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani. In a phone call Thursday night, he told U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo that recent U.S. strikes in Iraq were an unacceptable breach of Iraqi sovereignty and a violation of their security agreements, his office said.
He asked Pompeo to “send delegates to Iraq to prepare a mechanism” to carry out the Iraqi Parliament’s resolution on withdrawing foreign troops, according to the statement.
“The prime minister said American forces had entered Iraq and drones are flying in its airspace without permission from Iraqi authorities, and this was a violation of the bilateral agreements,” the statement added.
The Associated Press errs when it says that the move was "stoked by the American drone strike on Jan. 3 that killed top Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani". The move was stoked five days earlier when the U.S. killed 31 Iraqi security forces near the Syrian border despite the demands by the Iraqi prime minister and president not to do so. It was further stoked when the U.S. assassinated Abu Mahdi al-Muhandes, the deputy commander of the Popular Militia Forces and a national hero in Iraq.
The State Department issued a rather aggressive response to Abdul-Mahdi's request:
America is a force for good in the Middle East. Our military presence in Iraq is to continue the fight against ISIS and as the Secretary has said, we are committed to protecting Americans, Iraqis, and our coalition partners. We have been unambiguous regarding how crucial our D-ISIS mission is in Iraq. At this time, any delegation sent to Iraq would be dedicated to discussing how to best recommit to our strategic partnership—not to discuss troop withdrawal, but our right, appropriate force posture in the Middle East. Today, a NATO delegation is at the State Department to discuss increasing NATO’s role in Iraq, in line with the President’s desire for burden sharing in all of our collective defense efforts. There does, however, need to be a conversation between the U.S. and Iraqi governments not just regarding security, but about our financial, economic, and diplomatic partnership. We want to be a friend and partner to a sovereign, prosperous, and stable Iraq.
Shorter Pompeo: "Our troops will stay and you better do what we say."
A foreign force that is asked to leave a country and does not do so is an occupation force. It must and will be opposed.
The murder of the 31 security forces and the assassination of al-Mahandes have still not been avenged. The PMU will do their moral duty and fight the foreign occupation forces until they leave.
The demonstrators in Baghdad will not be able to prevent that from happening. It is interesting, by the way, that the Washington Post bureau chief in Baghdad thought she knew what they would demand even before they came together:
Louisa Loveluck @leloveluck - 9:48 UTC · Jan 10, 2020
Activists have called for fresh rallies in Baghdad's Tahrir Square today, and crowds expected to build after midday prayers. The demonstrators are rejecting parliament's decision to oppose a US troop presence, fearing repercussions that might follow.
A few hours later Loveluck had to admit that she was, as usual, wrong:
Louisa Loveluck @leloveluck - 11:13 UTC · Jan 10, 2020
“No to Iran, no to America” say signs and chants in Baghdad’s Tahrir Square as crowds start to swell. Protesters say they are fed up of their country being someone else’s battlefield. “We deserve to live in peace,” says 21 year old Zahraa.
...
Rejecting a narrow parliamentary vote backed by Shiite political elites is not the same as openly supporting the US. Chants in Tahrir today reject both the US and Iran.
The U.S. will need to pay better Iraqi 'activists' if it wants them to demand what Donald Trump wishes.
As the Iraqi Prime Minister explained (also here):
After my return from China, Trump called me and asked me to cancel the agreement, so I still refused, and he threatened me with massive demonstrations that would topple me. Indeed, the demonstrations started and then Trump called, threatening to escalate in the event I did not cooperate and do as he asked…
Iraq is again negotiating with Russia to acquire S-300 air defense systems. It will need them as the U.S. will have to leave and leave it will. The only choice for its soldiers is between leaving horizontally or vertically, dead or alive.
As Elijah Magnier say in his summarization of the last week's events: A New Middle East “made in Iran” is about to be born
The US President – who promised to end the “endless wars” – killed the Iraqi commander Abu Mahdi al-Muhandes and the Iranian Major General Qassem Soleimani believing he could win control of Iraq and achieve regime change in Iran. On the brink of triggering a major war, Trump has spectacularly lost Iran and is about to lose Iraq.
“Beautiful military equipment doesn’t rule the world, people rule the world, and the people want the US out of the region”, said Iran Foreign Minister Jawad Zarif. President Trump doesn’t have many people in the Middle East on his side, not even among his allies, whose leaders have been repeatedly insulted. Iran could not have dreamt of a better President to rejuvenate its position domestically and regionally. All Iran’s allies are jubilant, standing behind the “Islamic Republic” that fulfilled its promise to bomb the US. A “New Middle East” is about to be born; it will not be “Made in the USA” but “Made in Iran”. Let us hope warmongers’ era is over. The time has come to recognise and rely on intelligent diplomacy in world affairs.
In 2006 US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice famously celebrated Israel’s assault on Lebanon as "the birth pangs of a new Middle East." The child she dreamed of was never born. Israel lost that war against Hizbullah and the Resistance Axis has been winning ever since while the U.S. has lost again and again. It is time for the U.S. to end that useless engagement and to withdraw from the Middle East.
Posted by b on January 10, 2020 at 19:09 UTC | Permalink
« previous pageReally?? | Jan 11 2020 1:24 utc | 87
You may be "standing" on the wrong ship. I see it's an American video shot from the DDG99, which is painted on the bow. The Russian ship does not have "99" painted on the bow, it's after all, Russian ship. We are looking at the port side of the Russian ship in a near parallel course. I see the Russian turning right to avoid collision, slowing to avoid collision, and then resuming course passing aft of DDG99 (way too close!) Ship (in this case the Russian) being overtaken is obliged to maintain course and speed, but the US ship (it looks to me) steered slightly right to close the distance even more. I'd say both are in violation (because of the crossing being too close to the fantail of DDG99), but the US ship was at fault for the initial violation. It's fun and games...the skipper of DDG99 may have been following a "secret" (well, it was secret) policy to "contest" or harass "enemy" (ie Russian) ships, or maybe they had an affirmative action candidate, a blind afrochineesefemaletranvestiteretardcripplesodomiteblondjew perhaps, as helms-person. But I bet it's policy, stated or understood. Possibly this is compounded by incompetence. USN has problems, sometimes. I recall a pair of guys at Subic, took the Captain's Gig w/o authorization in the middle of the night (they said they were "testing" their engine repairs). It was dark. They hit a submarine...but got away with the whole fiasco because the navy had/has a critical shortage of people who can walk and chew gum simultaneously, and they were (are) skilled craftsmen. Likewise a snipe chief in steam who ran a good on a amphibious landing ship engine room as CPO, and sold a little dope on the side. They had a drug test. 52 guys failed, including the CPO (who could fix every mechanical device on the ship). 51 guys got discharged. But not the dope dealer CPO... The good of the ship comes first, and the machines required the CPO's test result get ignored. These are ordinary stories, but from the Vietnam and Gulfwar one periods. It's worse now.
Posted by: Walter | Jan 11 2020 2:52 utc | 102
The Western Media is constant propaganda. NATO’s position in Syria and Iraq is untenable. There is no defense against the ballistic missiles. With precision guidance they can take any target, military or economic, at will. The Iranians and Shiite Militias have thousands of them. The USA first fought then bought the Sunnis, came back, and destroyed the Caliphate. Deserted the Syrian Kurds. Assassinated Shiite militia leaders. There will be no problem determining who the enemy is. It is all Iraqis. NATO has no allies in country.
Ground movements will once again need tanks and will suffer IED attacks. Air supply will be very tenuous if no timetable for withdrawal is made with the Baghdad government. There aren’t the tanks or troops in the region retake to Baghdad or Karbala. The Embassy could only be resupplied by air. Dangerous if everyone below is taking potshots the helicopters.
Qatar, UAE, and the House of Saud must realize now that to keep making money from pumping oil out of the ground they have to make peace with Iran. An Israeli American war with Iran will destroy it all.
It is very unclear if Washington DC has any idea what’s just happened.
Posted by: VietnamVet | Jan 11 2020 2:58 utc | 103
"What is more real and politically charged is the fact that the Iraqi Arab nation (leadership) invited an Iranian (Persian) guest -- allegedly to talk peace deals with the Wahhabi gang -- and failed to uphold/honor the ancient host-guest codes."
Yes, obviously a terrible violation of the sacred role of the guest in Middle Eastern culture. I posted early on in this vein. But I wonder whether shame really falls to the Iraqis under the actual scenario that occurred. I should think shame would be transformed into fury at the interloper for tricking the Iraqis into violating the cultural order and the ancient code of honor (which is something the Yanks really do not "get" no matter how much they babble about "sacred honor"). That is what makes the whole episode verge on the blasphemous.
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 11 2020 3:01 utc | 104
Paratroopers deploying to the Middle East were told to leave behind their cellphones, laptops, tablets and other personal electronic devices, according to Army 82nd Airborne Division officials.
The move was made to ensure operational security was maintained during the emergency deployment, which saw 3,500 paratroopers from 1st Brigade Combat Team begin to fly out of Fort Bragg, North Carolina, to Ali Al Salem Air Base, Kuwait, over the first week of January.
“Anything considered a personal electronic device. All those things,” Lt. Col. Mike Burns, division spokesman, told Army Times. “But banned is a harsh word. The decision was made so soldiers weren’t put at risk.”
Burns confirmed that the decision was intended to both ensure that sensitive information pertaining to the deployment and mission was not shared outside official channels, and also to prevent any potential cyberattacks against the soldiers.
Posted by: Mao | Jan 11 2020 3:11 utc | 105
@105 -- agreed. I didn't notice your post, but we are obviously on the same page. Perhaps there are some readers here from the ME area who can give a more nuanced interpretation of events from this line of thinking. I'm more than happy to become better informed.
Posted by: imo | Jan 11 2020 3:15 utc | 106
michaelj72 @ 101 said in part;" It won't be easy as the US, regardless of which political party holds power, is ruthless, persistent and uses 'divide and conquer' tactics and its enormous economic powers very well - unfortunately."
"I hope the Iraqis are creative, and hope they succeed. And soon"
Yep, agreed. especially the soon part. The paradigm must change.
Posted by: ben | Jan 11 2020 3:18 utc | 107
If the Imperialist States of Amerikastan is interested in fighting ISIS, why did it murder the two men most responsible for defeating ISIS? Of course Amerikastan isn't interested in fighting ISIS. It wants ISIS to revive and strengthen so it can have an excuse to occupy Iraq forever. The only appropriate response is a full scale renewed insurgency against the evil Amerikastani Empire and its war criminals.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jan 11 2020 3:23 utc | 108
Walter 103
No, I don't think I am "standing" on the wrong ship. What i see here,
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/01/10/russian-navy-ship-aggressively-approached-us-warship/
is the Russian ship basically coming up abaft the Farragut, closing in almost as if to ram her, then deflecting to port. This doesn't look like a "collision" situation where two ships are on collision course(s). When the video starts the two ships are basically on the same course, in the same "channel," and the Ru ship is going faster and appearing to catch up.
Of course it it unclear how the Farragut got to that position in the first place. Perhaps it had already overtaken the Ru ship and crossed her port bow by the time they started recording. It is also not clear why the Ru vessel, having deflected to port, is suddenly again on the starboard side of the Farragut when the announcer states that eventually adequate distance between the two ships was gained. IMO the evidence on this encounter is being screwed around with by someone. I am sure they started videoing the Russian ship as soon as they spotted her, but they are only showing snippets that don't make sense. Maybe the Russkies have some video, too!
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 11 2020 3:26 utc | 109
Harry law @ 86 - extremely important link. I am not a psychiatrist but on first hearing what the man had done I could not believe he was sane. And indeed, several posters have remarked on his demeanor now that the stressful period of the barrage against the two bases concluded, as well as his continuing to boast and make statements that cannot be overlooked by the offended Iran government. The statement in your link that these are not lies but delusions has, I believe, much merit, and indeed the pressure may have been too much. I truly hope the Senate will consider well that they will not be doing him any favors if they simply deny the measure that the House has seen fit to pass. This is not a man who is used to seeing such dire consequences follow on his impulsive behavior as has happened here. I don't think I myself would be calm in the face of such a result to my careless insistence on wrong action - not only the General's horrible death and that of his companions, but innocents in his home town as well, and then on top of that a civilian airliner of American design failing at the critical time, and young people losing their lives. If one's inner self felt responsible, that could well tear one apart psychologically.
I just hope that those who can take action here do, and without delay. Thank you, Harry; this was important.
Posted by: juliania | Jan 11 2020 3:36 utc | 110
PS.
It looks to me as though the snippet of video shown second actually precedes the snippet shown first and they should be reversed to show the correct sequence. Ru vessel is to starboard of the Farragut. Farragut must have speeded up to "pass" the Ru vessel, coming up on her port bow and crossing to starboard. The ensuing situ is seen in the *first* snippet, where the Farragut is now ahead of the Ru vessel. The latter appears to speed up behind the Farragut, then veer off to port.
If this is what occurred, then the Farragut's captain was in the wrong he was overtaking. And the Russian captain was in the wrong to "chase" the Farragut and get too close to her. Or perhaps the Farragut slowed down so that the Ru vessel had to take avoidance action.
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 11 2020 3:37 utc | 111
Really?? @105
What imo @98 described relative to fundamental cultural imperatives in the West in somewhat unclear. It would be better to describe the difference using more modern concepts. The Arabs (as well as Asians and older eastern European cultures) have honor-centered cultures while the contemporary West has victim-centered cultures. While individuals in Arabic and Persian cultures have the imperative of attaining, defending, and/or reclaiming their honor, those in western cultures have the imperative of establishing and demonstrating their victim status. Obviously the ultimate victimhood to strive for is being nailed to a cross, but having others ridicule you for being stupid or having the wrong color skin or not having a penis works too.
In the West, the important thing is to believe that things happen to one that one is not responsible for. It is important to be recognized as the victim of events rather than the agent of changes. The most important thing is to be able to say "It's not my fault!", whether one is referring to something bad that happened or one is explaining away personal failure.
This attitude is particularly subtle at times, and it colors a great deal of people's behavior in ways that they are usually not aware of. For example, you mention that you imagine the Iraqis would be furious for being tricked, for being victimized by trickery, but that is not the dynamic at all. The anger is directed at themselves for their failure to avoid being deceived. The retribution directed at the US is thus not done out of anger, but rather it is simply what must be done to re-establish honor.
This may be a difficult distinction for people submerged in victim culture to understand, just as it is difficult for those in honor cultures to understand how individuals can derive status from victimhood. The concepts are orthogonal.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jan 11 2020 3:55 utc | 112
Re Farragut and Ru vessel.
I am being a bit obsessive here, but from this video
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2020/01/10/russian-navy-ship-aggressively-approached-us-warship/
it is obvious, from the Farragut's clearly visible wake, that the Farragut overtook the Ru vessel and then, it appears, instead of continuing at the same speed and course to distance itself from the Ru, slowed down right in the Ru's path. So that the latter had to take avoidance action by deflecting to port.
Experts in reading patterns in the water made by motorized vessels may be able to tell whether the water churned up under the Farragut's stern indicates that the vessel had slowed down or maybe even was deploying thrusters to slow down.
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 11 2020 4:02 utc | 113
William Gruff # 113
You are onto something there. This goes back to the very first settlers in this country. They used their status as "victim" to the natives in order to justify continued genocides, such as what happened in California. As well, poor whites were made to believe that they were "victims" of the prosperous black community in Tulsa, OK and they proceeded to burn down "Black Wall Street."
Victim culture goes a long way back in Murcah.
Posted by: Lurker | Jan 11 2020 4:15 utc | 114
In fact, this culture of victimhood as a means of status almost always accompanies preemptive military action against an imagined future threat (or continued, perceived) victimhood.
Posted by: Lurker | Jan 11 2020 4:18 utc | 115
Uncle Sam is like a dog going after a porcupine. With dogs, it seems the more quills they get, the more determined they are to try again. Unlike the porcupines I chase from the shed with a broom, Iran *can* throw its quills, and a long ways at that.
In the wild, if an animal gets enough quills in the mouth then they can't eat so die of starvation. Uncle Sam might want to think about that, but they are too single-minded on killing Iran.
Posted by: Trailer Trash | Jan 11 2020 4:24 utc | 116
Really @ 112, 114:
Best to check the US 5th Fleet's account on Twitter and follow the sequence of the videos. The earlier video is clearly the one where the Russian ship is on the starboard side of the USS Farragut. The second video is one where the Russian ship crosses over the Farragut's wake to that ship's portside.
If the videos had been taken by the same person, that person would have had to swivel around on his/her spot, and some time must have passed between those videos, as the USS Farragut is clearly in front of the Russian ship in the second video yet the Russian ship seems to be travelling at the same speed as in the first video.
Posted by: Jen | Jan 11 2020 4:30 utc | 117
I'm 71 now, but I remember growing up believing the US was the most honest and moral nation on the planet, with Mexico the most corrupt. With help from the internet my mind, and I'm sure many others, was changed. Together with the Net and Trumps hubris: his boasting about taking the Syrian oil fields, and his remarks about Iraq's oil, "why don't we just take it", and now bragging of 'murder', have alerted the world as to what they are dealing with. A country of Psycho-pathetic men and women. The future doesn't look good for us; does it? I wonder how he explained his actions to his son Barron? What does Melania think of him now?
@ J-Dogg 67
I have now read 2 reports that Iran has acknowledged that the plane was shot down mistakely by its forces
Posted by: Lorna MacKay | Jan 11 2020 6:43 utc | 119
Yeah, it's been evident for days, and I've been on about it ever since the assassination of Soleimani. The US position in Iraq is about to go into decline. The US is in Iraq by the agreement of the government, and the acquiescence of the people. With 5000 troops in country, it can't be otherwise, and get anything done. If Iraqis don't agree, the US can hold out in a limited number of bases with air support, but not more. (Though they can retreat to KRG, if that helps them, which it doesn't). Anything else means a military occupation. Can you imagine Trump getting agreement for an occupation force of 100,000 through Washington (in an election year, or even if it wasn't)?
Iraqis are rather proud people, like most Arabs. They won't lie down and accept US conditions. They may not be able to organise and resist the US, but they won't accept it either. There'll be endless sniping by Shi'a militiamen against US troops, enough to make life intolerable for the US.
Posted by: Laguerre | Jan 11 2020 6:49 utc | 120
Posted by: katherine | Jan 11 2020 7:00 utc | 122
Thanks for that. It's interesting. The US troops were not in bunkers; the warning was evidently not forwarded to them. One hell of a bang. So there were no casualties, were there?
Posted by: Laguerre | Jan 11 2020 7:13 utc | 121
Posted by: katherine | Jan 11 2020 7:00 utc | 122
That video is fake, it contains edited material from the 'explosion' at Tianjin in August 2015
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 11 2020 7:38 utc | 122
@ 119 joetv... i am a canuck in my 60's and i thought something similar about canada.. over the years i have had to let go of that.. the west has gone off track with it's consumer culture and loss of clarity on what is truly meaningful in life..
@ 124 norwegian... thanks for that.. i was wondering.. hard to know what is real and what is fake anymore.. so much can be faked via the net...
Posted by: james | Jan 11 2020 7:46 utc | 123
Posted by: james | Jan 11 2020 7:46 utc | 125
You are welcome. If anyone doubts this, notice the skyscraper in the video. Even if one does not immediately recognize the images as I did, the tall building+crane should tell everyone it was not from a US base in the desert.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 11 2020 7:53 utc | 124
Posted by: Norwegian | Jan 11 2020 7:53 utc | 126
Oh that was a building was it? It was the cat that gave me doubt.
Posted by: Laguerre | Jan 11 2020 8:10 utc | 125
Posted by: michaelj72 # 101 Disaster Capitalism with American characteristics
Posted by: Lorna MacKay # 120 The Epoc Times HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Article from WSJ on Iraq obtaining Russia AD systems. If Iraq obtains the S 400 there could be an uninterrupted network of S 300 S 400 from Iran Iraq Turkey (??) Russia and Syria. Food for thought.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/iraq-considers-purchase-of-russian-air-defense-missile-system-11578688124
From Rob Lee twitter https://twitter.com/RALee85
More fidelity to battle damage at Al Asad following Iran's attack, per defense official:
One severely damaged Black Hawk
One damaged aerial drone
Damaged taxiways, aircraft ramp
Nine destroyed maintenance shelters
Three destroyed pickup trucks
In Erbil, damage to a watchtower.
The head of the Iraqi Parliament’s defense and security committee told RIA Novosti that Baghdad has resumed talks with Moscow on the purchase of S-300 air defese systems. He didn't specify which variant of the S-300.
The head of the Iraqi Parliament’s defense and security committee told RIA Novosti that Baghdad has resumed talks with Moscow on the purchase of S-300 air defese systems. He didn't specify which variant of the S-300.
An Iraqi member of parliament told WSJ that they are discussing the S-400, not the S-300. Karim Elaiwi said, "We need to get these missiles, especially after Americans have disappointed us many times by not helping us in getting proper weapons." 2/
I believe S-300PMU-2 production has ended, so the S-400 is the only option for a newly produced long-range system (aside from S-300V variants). Russia, of course, could also cheaply transfer an earlier S-300PS or S-300PM system to Iraq from the MoD's stockpiles. 4/
There's no indication yet that the crew of the Ivan Khurs was sunbathing during this event like the crew from Admiral Vinogradov. LOL
A thread on Iran's Tor systems
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1215415133268250624
Not surprised about US not helping Iraq getting any AD. Even US doesn't have Patriots in Iraq. Definitely wont like the natives getting the S-400 and becoming free of US intimidation.
Iran's SAM coverage /(Sept 2018)
https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2018/09/irans-sam-coverage-updates-and-future.html
Posted by: Tom | Jan 11 2020 9:02 utc | 126
The Epoch Times is the one run by the Falun Gong crazies department of the CIA. They'll only say something that's possibly true if it means they can slip you a lie.
Instead of that anyone is better served by going to IRNA (or similar) if they want to see what Iran says.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jan 11 2020 11:50 utc | 127
JB @ 32
ALL WARS are about resources. FULL STOP.
Capitalism didn't invent wars.
Our entire existence is about GROWTH. Our economic systems have been reliant upon growth. POWER is reliant upon growth. Go forth and multiply. Where did anyone think that this was going to lead, on a finite planet?
As long as somewhere in the proclamation of how we are to conduct our affairs it contains the premise for the need for GROWTH then all bets are off that we avoid war.
POWER skims from GROWTH. Think modern banking. Interest is the means for the skim. One could say that tithing is a skim: it ends up that way, though the origin and basis was meant as anything other than a skim (power corrupts).
We did not get to be over 7 billion by being overly murderistic. As Peter Kropotkin wrote in "Mutual Aid" we could not have multiplied to such numbers (at the time of writing we had roughly 1.6 billion) without cooperation. Interestingly, our global peak growth was in the late 1960s and early 1970s. 1971 was the year that will eventually be recognized as when the US started its terminal descent: fiat growth ramped up while population growth declined- just kind of an interesting note.
Capitalism has been the best tool for growth. If one believes that growth is good (which, as I note above, is a hard argument to stand behind) then Capitalism has to be recognized as being "superior."
Eric Sevareid said that "The chief cause of problems is solutions." I am afraid that we can go through a ton of pain to overthrow the existing System, Capitalism, but STILL not solve the problem. We aren't seeing what the REAL problem is, so "solutions" ain't going to get us there.
Anyone who professes to KNOW the "answer" is someone I'd be wary of, especially if any prescribed "solution" entails "growth."
Posted by: Seer | Jan 11 2020 12:54 utc | 128
Dear everybody,
I have started a petition for the withdrawal of US and other forces from Iraq.
Please sign if you agree. Please help to spread the information about the petition to all four corners of the world by sharing
the info and link on any platforms that you use and in any networks that you may have.
I've never done this before.
Thank you!
Link: http://chng.it/PXJPQCcJ
Posted by: JB | Jan 11 2020 13:28 utc | 129
Not terribly surprising, still picking this fight in a election year baffles me. Master chess player indeed. The U.S isn't really in a position to dictate much to the Iraqis I don't think, I Mean what threats do the Americans have left to throw at that poor country? And even if the U.S does succeed in delaying the day of reckoning, it will come at a huge cost to American prestige and destroy what little veneer of "Benign Protector of the Liberal World Order" the Empire can hide behind. Imperial Hubris seems to be swallowing American Society whole, I mean it is amazing to me how little people care about the unbelievably criminal behavior the Trump regime has displayed just in this first week of the new year, but then again it shouldn't really be surprising given the lies about Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, etc. that people swallow wholesale. Empires really do seem to commit suicide before any outside force can overpower them. Here's hoping the coming Multipolar age will restore a measure of humanity to this Earth.
Posted by: HarryOrd | Jan 11 2020 15:16 utc | 130
@Lurk | Jan 10 2020 20:43 utc | 21
I expect some spineless eastern European countries (Romania, Poland, etc.) will lend themselves for this. The other members will tacitly accept the NATO branding ...
Posted by: Das Kommentariat | Jan 10 2020 21:12 utc | 29
There was a mass jubilation on the streets of Podgorica, folks happy that at long last, Montenegro joins other NATO countries on a glorious mission. Although small, the republic will contribute 2 support participants. In the same time, demostrations in Zagreb demanded that the entire squad of 14 people returns to Iraq from Kuweit, deriding the timidity of the new government. We was to stand with USA! In Poland and Slovakia ... [interruption of the transmission from an alternative universe]
Seriously, you can press and cajole the lesser vassals to send some 100-200 troops. Who knows? For a billion dollars, Albanians could send a thousand (sorry for all Albanians, this is a speculation). This will not make an occupation.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jan 11 2020 15:34 utc | 131
As far as financial responsibility is concerned, I think the airline has responsibility as well. Airlines hold back flights for all kinds of less important reasons all the time. Knowing the circumstances, they should have delayed the flight and put the passengers up in a hotel.
Posted by: Circe | Jan 11 2020 17:47 utc | 132
———
ben @33
Corporate ascendancy’s was accurately described in perhaps the greatest novel of the pomp of the USA:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Merchants
Pohl’s sequel takes it to a terrestrial conclusion.
Posted by: Cortes | Jan 10 2020 21:51 utc | 47
——
As above so below.
From the link from the Plot summary section I took out the essence of the sci-fi novel:
Quote:
In a vastly overpopulated world, businesses have taken the place of governments and now hold political power. States exist merely to ensure the survival of huge trans-national corporations. Advertising has become hugely aggressive and by far the best-paid profession. Through advertising, the public is constantly deluded into thinking that the quality of life is improved by all the products placed on the market. Some of the products contain addictive substances designed to make consumers dependent on them. However, the most basic elements of life are incredibly scarce, including water and fuel. End Quote.
Appart from addictive substances we humans might also be able to create addictive environments and addictive behavior.
I do believe the Mossad was slowly acquiring US Pentagon cache of secrets, especially the Tactical Reconnaissance programe. Eppstein blackmail rings and similar might be falling on this category of espionage.
The US T.R. projects and derrivatives might be key science for their "Yinon" plans.
It seems also a (secret) space program might be involved.
So "Yinon" might end up look like a new synthetic reality where another advanced civ. is making contact with us in the future (space/cargo religions) and also was doing historically (forbiden archaelogy/OoP artifacts, supressed history)
Synthetic realities (emerging in to or from) was all about Eleusinian and Cybellian (Kaviria) Mysteries forbidden to the public in ancient times.
Is Trump (ISIS/Mossad) still trying to bomb "52" cultural sites in Iran as they did in Syria, and will by extention also try in Turkey/Greece?
It's all about the "Yinon".
I did a bit research on the writers and found out one of them was in to US mil radarcm tech and weather prediction science and stationed Italy, (maybe cultural sites research a bit involved there) , right at the time cold war was about to begin that resulted possibly by the "allies" from and for the complete discovey of the Nazi cache of secret research from the 20's and onward.
Posted by: Qparticle | Jan 11 2020 17:52 utc | 133
I see Iran having to pay anywhere between 160 and 180 million for this error.
Iran will have to pay about 80 or 90 million after depreciation just for the plane, and I'm not sure, but maybe around the same for loss of life.
Posted by: Circe | Jan 11 2020 18:15 utc | 134
William Gruff:
"For example, you mention that you imagine the Iraqis would be furious for being tricked, for being victimized by trickery, but that is not the dynamic at all. The anger is directed at themselves for their failure to avoid being deceived. The retribution directed at the US is thus not done out of anger, but rather it is simply what must be done to re-establish honor."
Well, I don't see "trickery" this way.
I see trickery as a form of lying.
It is underhanded. It is dishonorable. It is craven.
I think you are misapplying the idea of victimhood here, i.e., you assume that I am projecting a sense of "victimhood" on Iraqis.
I do not think I am doing this and I do not view what occurred, as far as I understand the facts, through a Western victimhood lens.
What you describe is a choice to view oneself as a victim---of circumstances, of things others have done to one.
I do choose to view the circumstances as I know them through the honor lens. The assassination was a low-down dishonorable act. The Americans revealed themselves (not for ht first time, but spectacularly and publicly) as people who have no sense of honor. I do not see how you work the victimhood thing---which, I agree, is kind of neurotic-- as a prime element into this. And certainly please do not project onto me your ideas of American victimhood thinking. If you are American and that is what you think, fine for you, but leave me out of it!!
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 11 2020 22:31 utc | 135
Jen @ 118
Actually I think the sequence of events is clearer on the video I linked from the navytimes website, because more footage is provided.
The Fifth Fleet snippet appears to support their version of what happened. Now having seen more footage I can see that this snippet is misleading.
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 11 2020 22:38 utc | 136
The bastard British equivalent of Victoria Nuland (UK ambassador to Iran) was just cut by Iranian security forces in between university demonstrator having afternoon high tea. This mofu was there to direct the Iranian students against government he should be thrown out immediately.
Posted by: kooshy | Jan 11 2020 22:52 utc | 137
I have found Tom Luongo's analyses to be pretty good.
He has this to say about the USA in Iraq
(https://tomluongo.me/2020/01/10/after-missiles-fly-iraq-becomes-battleground/):
"The big question, after this attack, is whether U.S. air defenses around the Ain al Assad airbase west of Ramadi were active or not. If they were then Trump’s standing down after the air strikes signals what Patrick suggests, a new Middle East in the making.
If they were not turned on then the next question is why? To allow Iran to save face after Trump screwed up murdering Soleimani?
I’m not capable of believing such Q-tard drivel at this point. It’s far more likely that the spectre of Russian electronics warfare and radar evasion is lurking in the subtext of this story and the U.S. truly now finds itself after a second example of Iranian missile technology in a nascent 360 degree war in the region.
It means that Iran’s threats against the cities of Haifa and Dubai were real.
In short, it means the future of the U.S. presence in Iraq now measures in months not years."
The whole post is worth a read.
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 12 2020 0:25 utc | 138
@ Posted by: Really?? | Jan 12 2020 0:25 utc | 139 with the Tom Luongo link...thanks, I read the post
I read him as ZH uses his writing, but not all the time. It will be interesting to read his follow up after the Iranian taking responsibility for the plan downing.
The new ME in the making is going through childbirth yet and will not be fully born until the major world players face off with their proxy midwifing of the ME in the middle of our civilization war.
I think there are two parts.
1. Is the end of the Might-Makes-Right and Rules not Law based pattern of control.
2. Is the end of finance being a private run utility of our social system.
1. Might-Makes-Right has been a partial failure since the Korean war, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. The problem is the inertia of the global private finance system that has all countries controlled by debt and monopoly of the narrative via brainwashing/propaganda.
2. China has banned usury which is part of the key to chains of debt and has a public Central Bank that is a working model of MMT. If you have read any Michael Hudson of Ellen Brown one can understand that taking the profit out of the middle of banking and focusing its efforts on the masses is much easier than the current competitive/profit model.
How long it will take for both parts to evolve remains to be seen. Of course, if the Might-Makes-Right aka unilateralism meme is not neutered, the move to complete public finance will take much longer.
I am 6 chapters into Stephen Zarlenga's The Lost Science Of Money which is 685 pages thick. I am kinda (he covers multiple centuries at a time) up to the beginning of the middle ages and have learned that there were multiple religious and private players in the money world. A very interesting tidbit is that for somewhere around 1K years there was a gold/silver exchange rate difference between the East/West of Eurasia that made many moneychangers/traders very rich.....silver went East and gold came West.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 12 2020 1:22 utc | 139
The page could not be found, Really @ 139.
Thank you, psychohistorian, for your brief encounter elsewhere.
Might be time to concentrate on growing things.
Thank you, b, for superlative coverage of these events.
Posted by: juliania | Jan 12 2020 4:10 utc | 140
Juliania 141
Here is the title, if you want to search for that:
"After Missiles Fly, Iraq Becomes the Battleground"
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 12 2020 4:20 utc | 141
Julinia 141.
The link works if you don't end up including the parens, viz.:
https://tomluongo.me/2020/01/10/after-missiles-fly-iraq-becomes-battleground/
Posted by: Really?? | Jan 12 2020 4:22 utc | 142
Thank you, Really, very kind! I must say this page is a relief after I have been attempting to read the extended ones. And there have been so many bits of information flying back and forth, some no doubt simply rumor...if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you...that does strike home these shaky days.
Indeed, the point of the linked essay that Iraq is the foothold for the US hanging on for dear life (perhaps I should say the clutching handhold) seems to revolve around what could have been the meaning of the non-response from US defenses at the gigantic base that was so precisely targeted. I can't help remembering that early in days when Iraq was under attack even before Bush Two invaded, there was that sequence of threats against Israel and a lot of information then that Patriot defenses were not what they should have been.
So, my thought was that such defenses had been electronically disabled by Iran as the radar had been hit, or else there had been a recognition that it was best to avoid any resistance in light of the superiority of weaponry Iran had. But still, there is the question of the belligerent lies continuing to be told in reference to Soleimani's character, claiming he acted in support of terrorists, which is plainly untrue.
That, to me, indicates insanity and would be highly offensive to Iran. It's where we need to hear clarification, and I was very glad to see Yves at NC strongly correct that assertion by a comment on her site. But it needs to get out into the mainstream and be dealt with by Congress more effectively than they have done so far. I find any question of electoral continuity, business as usual, almost as insane as the leadership itself!
These have been criminal actions - the lies and continuing threats, not to mention the murders. That is the stunning situtation we find ourselves in. Somebody mentioned the State of the Union speech. What? How can we even imagine that will take place???? The mind shudders at the prospect.
Posted by: juliania | Jan 12 2020 5:46 utc | 143
Here's a 'just suppose'. Just suppose the US president had, in his delayed speech, given a mea culpa something similar to the one that Iran's military leader gave with respect to the loss of the Ukranian plane. I think he could have convinced many of his supporters that indeed he'd not realized what sort of man Soleimani was, nor that the attack on Soleimani would involve others, especially Iraqis...etc, etc. That, in light of how so many have viewed him, would have been pretty outrageous and hard to believe but it would have been rational. It would have been diplomatic. It would have helped return us to a state of equilibrium. (And he did say he wanted to be that.) What he is doing now is not rational.
I guess I've never really experienced 'high crimes and misdemeanors' in their raw, treasonous actuality - I'd still like to believe it is the delusion of insanity that is the driving force here. But that gives me no comfort because the pressure of such delusions can only increase. Someone in his inner circle has to realize what is happening to him and relieve him of this terrible burden, for all our sakes. Maybe even someone in his family - he needs help! You can see that in his stance, in his face. He needs help. That's what I am praying for.
Posted by: juliania | Jan 12 2020 6:12 utc | 144
juliana, i'm not sure what you are talking about with trump. the impeachment has nothing to do with actual impeachable offenses like his assassination of soleimani, and won't result in any more rational hands at the helm-this is all just standard warmongering policy from both parties. pence, if anything, will be even worse.
u.s. policy has been irrational from a utilitarian standpoint of the greatest welfare for the most people for a long time, but some people have gotten very rich and powerful on those policies.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Jan 12 2020 11:02 utc | 145
juliania
What is happening now is not a recent thing for Trump. What he is saying about Iran is what he has believed for fourty years. Some time ago I put up a link to a video interview of Trump in 1980 while the Tehran embassy drama was still ongoing. What he said then, he is saying now. He is not led into this crap by anybody. He is the leader when it comes to attacking Iran. All his appointees have had the same blind hatred of Iran as Trump. For Trump, there are no rules. There is nobody to hold the US to account. Hence 'we lie, we cheat, we steal' Pompeo types.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jan 12 2020 11:15 utc | 146
Michael Hudson describes it well as the Iran Dergangement Syndrome
https://michael-hudson.com/2020/01/persian-powerplay/
General Michael Flynn opposed the Obama led war in Syria and this seemed to auger well when Trump first picked him as a top national security adviser. There seemed to be split in the intelligence services.
But interestingly both Flynn and Trump at the time still had a strong case of Iran Derangement Syndrome.
From Hudson:
""Suleimani was killed because he had been invited by Iraq’s government to help mediate a rapprochement between Iran and Saudi Arabia.""
""Both the Oil lobby and the Military-Industrial Complex obtain huge economic benefits from the Saudis.""
I agree with Hudson that Russia, China and Iran are developing good alternatives to the US dollar and that we will see the USD lose its power to deliver economic sanctions both at home (austerity measures) and abroad. One problem he sees with the restoration of the domestic inequality problem is the lack of an effective left-wing socialist alternative to neoliberalism.
One thing I find interesting over the last several days since the Suleimani murder is the extensive manipulation of social media that was attempted. Facebook, Instagram and Twitter were extensively targeted to remove anything that was pro Suleimani.
But it seems that the solidarity and strength of the Resistance movement is too strong for this feeble effort.
Posted by: financial matters | Jan 12 2020 12:02 utc | 147
This now probably a dying thread but for the record I’ll just add...
@ Really?? | Jan 11 2020 3:01 utc | 105 – “But I wonder whether shame really falls to the Iraqis under the actual scenario that occurred. I should think shame would be transformed into fury at the interloper for tricking the Iraqis into violating the cultural order and the ancient code of honor…”
It is a very complex dynamic which another poster has expanded on. We need to be careful not to project our worldviews (and deeper) vectors onto others. The ‘Trickster’ is an ancient archetype. And irony here is there is a strong thematic link between the early Zoroastrian (emerging out of pre-Persian ‘good-evil’ binary that subsequently flowed into Jewish, Christian and Islamic thinking: “Dualism in Zoroastrianism is the existence of, yet complete separation of, good and evil. This is recognised in two interconnecting ways: Cosmically (opposing forces within the universe) Morally (opposing forces within the mind)” ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroastrian/beliefs/dualism.shtml )
It has, in a sense, perhaps like a snake eating its tail (ouroboros), come back to bite them in the 21st century with the head of a Trump.
In other less dualistic cultures, the ‘trickster’ is not an evil character of equal cosmic proportions to the Creator – but rather a weak and corrupting influence within the ecology of mind etc – the fox, the coyote, the shaman. In Greek myth it is reflected in the Trojan Horse and development of strategic thinking by Odysseus. Perhaps, to a lesser degree (or a more distorted projection) within the Jewish/Christian system in that somewhat inconvenient (to binary thinkers) Book of Job.
In more complex and sophisticated models, the binary “if ya not with us; then ya with the bad guys) GW ‘boy’ Bush variant is simply put aside as simplistic and infantile. Or if you prefer, lacking requisite variety (Ashby).
Tricking someone in war is what winning war is about. You may not agree with the morals of war, but if you are in it then “them’s the facts” etc.
Technically, the USA has been at war officially since 9/11 when GWBush & Co did their little number. This “technically” also has impacts on various international trade agreements and conditions (fine print) which give the US a backdoor out of various limitations and conditions that others must apply – i.e., read as the “exceptionals.”
The weakness of this binary model as an operative eschatology is that unless you win then your most powerful (tribal) ‘God’ is not necessarily on your side. Then the long twisted contorted ‘logic’ begins that leads to the victim mentality and its dangerous shadow. Sacrifice and blood must be made etc. Punishment and victims etc. Just the Jewish meta-narrative must be enough to see this as a drawback for a sane and balanced life. And they, having escaped Egypt (with stolen loot) and existed as slaves in Babylon (where they likely picked up the binary model from their masters) have spent how many millennia twisting a ‘success’ narrative out of that?
@ William Gruff | Jan 11 2020 3:55 utc | 113
I think WG makes an excellent contribution to this line of thinking. His “The anger is directed at themselves for their failure to avoid being deceived” describes the logic in play at a very deep level. When a world view (Arab/Iranian in this case upgraded to Islam on the surface) touches the plague – it does not blame the plague, for that is its nature.
The evil of the ‘great satan’ (the US in this case from the Iranian perspective at least), is what it is. The fault is in touching it – and being duped into such etc; or (in shame mode) like public evidence (losing face) of child-like status such as eating off the floor etc. They failed an intelligence test, if you like. Or perhaps, a loss of a ‘favoured worshiper’ status has been indicated by the (tribal) god that controls all and everything etc -- including the future (at least within their constructed worldview). Not hard to see where this leads in real world drama. More contorted justifying ‘logic’ and/or ill health when things go wrong etc.
Lurker | Jan 11 2020 4:15 utc | 115/116 – I agree.
Really?? | Jan 11 2020 22:31 utc | 136
“Well, I don't see "trickery" this way. I see trickery as a form of lying. It is underhanded. It is dishonorable. It is craven.”
Well, that statement sets out nicely your worldview and frames and anchors your actions and responses. We are all similar in being framed; but are not all framed as such in details.
However, I think your use of the word “honor” (honor lens) and how it is used by myself and William Gruff in this context is different. And that leads to confusion when trying to discuss.
This is not the place to go into it (as it can get quite complex and academic). However, I draw your attention to a deeper layer than ‘worldview’ that some use to unpack even further the root metaphors, myths and meta-narratives at play (that hold the worldview in place) – unless these can be exposed and transformed then very little can change on other levels.
If interested then check out the causal layered analysis (CLA) approach by Sohail Inayatullah. Plenty of material to google – a 19min Ted talk is a useful intro imo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGOnJDek5To
You see, without this deeper analysis then your statement "What you describe is a choice to view oneself as a victim---of circumstances, of things others have done to one" – suffers from the worldview/belief that choice in these things is available.
It may well be for some, and at some degree, but what we mostly see on closer analysis of our views is simply a deeper set of conditioning that sustains the worldview(s) we hold (or at least understand and appreciate), and therefore this limits free choice etc. If the root metaphor is ‘victim’ (or whatever); and the deep myth is justifying martyrdom then – ergo, the future is, in the main, pre-conditioned (within limits). That is the program in operation. An ‘enemy’ that knows this and applies the knowledge strategically is at an advantage in hostilities -- by way of Blindsiding, if nothing else.
Hope that helps some, …
Posted by: imo | Jan 12 2020 15:34 utc | 148
#15 , Hey Jimmy, I remember you from The Saker's Site, When you would correct people's spelling , and grammer. )Offering no relevant content. Watched you incubate B's site, IMO your Zionist Troll, Make Israhell Great Again, an oxymoron. Somebody , wish I remember who, called you out yesterday. Your response , Don't sh** on me,Well I do , Jimmy, controlled opposition , Quick question , Are you also the one who uses the moniker Daniel, Homework Rev 2:9 Rev 3:9, John 8
Posted by: Garcia | Jan 13 2020 8:38 utc | 149
Trump is simply a third-rate Godfather type gangster, with a touch of the charm and a lot of the baggage. I think his murder of General Qassem Soleimani was not something he would have done if he had any choice. It was a very stupid move, and Trump is just not that stupid. I really think this was demanded by the 'churnitalists'. These churnitalists are probably the psychos of the predatory arm of the CIA, and their billionaire allies.
See, it all works like this:
These churnitalists (who supposedly provide us with 'protection', or 'security') are the real rulers (because everybody who defies them ends up dead). Now just ask your self: How does rulership actually really work? It's really kind of simple. The only actual way to establish rulership over other people is to prove, again and again, that you can force them to do stupid things, for absolutely no reason. This is called 'people-churning', and all you have to do is just keep churning out low-class 'history' by constantly forcing the weaker ones to do stupid things. Again and again. This happens constantly in a churnitalist gangster society. Even in schools and legislatures, and so on. Haven't you noticed it yet?
The comments to this entry are closed.
Below is a link to a Michael Hudson piece that is a follow up to his latest at the Saker
Persian Powerplay
As usual, it is right on the money...pun intended
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jan 11 2020 2:47 utc | 101