Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 22, 2019

The MoA Week In Review - Open Thread 2019-76

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

Related:
Turkey's Grand Plans for Middle East Primacy - National Interest

Related:
The Democratic Leadership’s Strategy on Impeachment Is Doomed and Dangerous - Aaron Maté, The Nation
Former NSA Director Is Cooperating With Probe of Trump-Russia Investigation - The Intercept

>Rogers has met the prosecutor leading the probe, Connecticut U.S. Attorney John Durham, on multiple occasions, according to two people familiar with Rogers’s cooperation. While the substance of those meetings is not clear, Rogers has cooperated voluntarily, several people with knowledge of the matter said.<

Related:
The campaign proceeds quite fast. The terrorist don't fight back much because they lack fuel. A week or so ago the Russian airforce had bombed a complex of small refineries near Azaz in northern Idleb. That seems to have destroyed most of the available fuel supplies.

At the UN China and Russia have vetoed the attempt to open new UN humanitarian aid border crossings in the the Kurdish held area in the northeast. Russia then introduced a resolution that would have allowed to keep two UN aid crossings into Idleb governorate open. The 'western' countries voted it down. Unless some new compromise is found by January 10 UN supplies into Idleb will cease by that date.

Other issues:

(I am currently traveling to spend a few days with my wider family. New Moon of Alabama posts will therefore be fewer than usual.)

A look at a another war:

Propaganda in the War on Yugoslavia - Swiss Propaganda Research

Anti-Vaxxers:

Peter Hotez vs. Measles and the Anti-Vaccination Movement - Texas Monthly

Space Force - the important stuff:

May the Space Force be with you. Here’s what we know about the US military’s newest service - Defense News

“It’s going to be really important that we get this right. A uniform. A patch. A song. It gets to the culture of a service,” [Gen. John Raymond, who currently leads U.S. Space Command,] said. “So we’re not going to be in a rush to get something, and not do that right. There’s a lot of work going on towards that end. I don’t think it’s going to take a long time to get that done, but that’s not something we’re going to roll out on day one.”

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on December 22, 2019 at 15:23 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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And just for a little more perspective about what is killing our species there is the link below about suicides in the world

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-country/

50K + suicides each year in the US and all these commenters wailing about 7800 vaccine deaths for not being given a choice to take them or not.

Just what should we waste our textual white noise on?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 24 2019 21:31 utc | 201

@198 t-bear

Two things:

Scientists do not know the outcome of vaccinating ad infinitum. What happens with the disease? Does it mutate and break through a la antibiotic-resistent super bugs which is happening with Mersa and the overuse of these drugs?

To rest your hope in the continual effectiveness of medical intervention ad infinitum goes against the Hippocratic Oath if other means have been abandoned which would yield a similar result. Just saying.

#2 What are you saying on your second point? It sounds like a conclusion from a large-expense study that went nowhere.

You still have laws that are being enacted RIGHT NOW which restrict your liberty to abstain from forced immunization.

We are supposed to wait for future genetic testing that Merck and co. Would never agree to?

I appreciate your addition but it does not address the lion's share of what mandated vaccination boils down to.


Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 24 2019 21:50 utc | 202

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 24 2019 21:31 utc | 201

"50K + suicides each year in the US and all these commenters wailing about 7800 vaccine deaths for not being given a choice to take them or not.

Just what should we waste our textual white noise on?"

I don't see why it needs to be either/or rather than both/and. Personally I would waste my noise on cancer deaths, the great majority of which are caused by environmental poisons. (Although the corporate/media/academic establishment does all it can to propagate the many-times-debunked fake science of genetic causation.)

All three, and all deaths from a deliberately inhuman health care system, and most other premature death, can be boiled down to mass-homicidal Mammon.

Posted by: Russ | Dec 24 2019 21:50 utc | 203

Tannenhouser 199

"We are having I harvested some cilantro from open beds In the garden and some romaine nomads from the greenhouse just yesterday:)"

I still had parsley going until an ice storm froze it solid. Well, now that it's thawed out it might even recover. It's the offspring from a superbly hardy plant whose seeds I saved.

Posted by: Russ | Dec 24 2019 21:51 utc | 204

My comment about the necessity of vaccines, specifically for the measles, was solely relating to the U.S. and to a lesser extent the West.

I agree in the stopgap nature of vaccines and their utility in the developing world when no other precautions can be taken.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 24 2019 21:52 utc | 205

@ Nemesiscalling | Dec 24 2019 21:50 utc | 202

I shall not be getting into any dispute with anyone on this subject.

There are too many unknowns in both genetics and immunology to have correct answers at hand. Next answer is to look for the better answer, and failing that, a good answer; then there is the tried and trusted - prayer (with altogether uncertain recovery rate). Good luck making your decisions on faux emotional attractors.

"… outcome of vaccinating ad infinitum."? That only happens with immortals, doesn't it? As long as populations keep changing members due to birth and death, immunisation will be required don't you think? Just to maintain resistance to disease.

Mandated vaccination is how the population protects itself from virulent diseases. In the Spanish fishing port of San Vincente de la Barquera on the top of a hill in the town stands a cathedral, construction began with a Romanesque design. It was completed some time later with a Gothic design. In that interval the Black Death Plague happened. I will leave it to your imagination what a vaccine against that one might have produced.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Dec 24 2019 22:27 utc | 206

@ T-bear

We don't have to go round and round. I made my point in several posts above.

Imagine the effect of proper diet, sanitation, and nutrition during those dark ages?

We have that right now. Therefore the debate is about right now.

But I will not bend and kiss the ring of any holder who says vaccination brought the West to where it is today.

On the contrary, it merely swooped in and took the credit.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 24 2019 22:54 utc | 207

Please stop trying to put words or other construct into my mouth that I have neither said nor have I implied, these are shite you have had with some other. This is ended. You can kiss whatever you like but I would caution you may need permission first. Again that is someone else's shite.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Dec 24 2019 23:12 utc | 208

this poor horse has been flogged a lot already. I have been wanting to simply say that if anyone thinks it is a good idea to inject vaccines into their bodies then they should do so. What I and many others are saying is, if I do not want to be vaccinated, I should not be forced to.

It should be a risk I can evaluate and take. If I do not get the vaccination, how will it affect anyone else? Should I contract the disease it will not be passed to others who have chosen the vaccine.

we have lost so many of our freedoms already, going down this slope is just another step toward euthanasia. there are certainly good arguments for that as well, only problem is, who makes the decision that you are better off dead?

if you have so much faith in doctors and corporate medicine then I suppose you would adopt this practice too. personally I prefer to take some responsibility for myself.

Posted by: dan of steele | Dec 24 2019 23:44 utc | 209

@ 208 t-bear

No, I get the last word.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 24 2019 23:45 utc | 210

Below is a ZH posting that relates to why Dennis Muilenburg was fired from Boeing

Boeing Releases 737 MAX Safety Warnings Withheld From FAA

Will any ever get prosecuted for murder about this? Sad to say, probably no. Corporations are people only to the extent that they can influence elections, not to extent that they take responsibility for their perfidy that killed hundreds.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 25 2019 0:46 utc | 211

@ Posted by: Lorna MacKay | Dec 24 2019 20:42 utc | 197

Your argument (and the argument in the article you linked here) doesn't make any sense, because vaccines are not drugs: their goal is precisely to develop the individual's immunological resistance - precisely what you claim it is already necessary for the individual to have before taking it.

Measles vaccine are extremely safe, and they save a lot of lives. Yes, basic sanitation does the heavy job in erradicating most of the diseases - but measles is still deadly and highly contageous enough for vaccines to still be economically and socially viable: it has a 90% contagion rate and there is no treatment for it.

Measles vaccine is very safe because it has the dead virus: the child won't have the actual disease inside it, just the wall of the virus. Some vaccines do have the live virus and are dangerous: in Brazil, you aren't allowed to take the yellow fever vaccine if you're not travelling to the State of the Amazon (because it kills one of every 100,000 people who take the vaccine). That's not the case with the measles one.

You should vaccinate yourself and your child to the State recommended doses only (don't fall for any fag in the private sector). That's true even if you live in a tyrannical country, with an "evil" State. It's not in the best interests of the State to lose its healthy children and adults for something silly and cheaply and easily preventable. The vaccine gives you the best of the two worlds: a prepared immunological system without having to have the disease.

Posted by: vk | Dec 25 2019 1:03 utc | 212

Posted by: Russ @ 204

Speaking of greenhouses, you might find this summary about heat-pump soil heated double wall greenhouses of interest. And BTW, all the designs are open source.


Welcome to my latest project - my waste-heat heated, heated-soil "Greenhouse Effect Greenhouse"

Posted by: pogohere | Dec 25 2019 1:28 utc | 213

@212 vk

The MMR is an attenuated live virus.

It does have its value in developing nations.

Those nations should not be slaves to renewed use year in and year out if they choose not to and develop environmental safety standards that are intrinsic to the West.

Even with vaccine rates in the U.S. nowhere near levels proposed as necessary for their theory of herd immunity (am I up to date? Is my neighbor? What about all the elderly? We are talking not just school children, afterall), there has not been a single death from measles in the last decade in the U.S. how can this be when we as a country are so far below herd immunity levels? I thought the literal fucking sky was sposed to fall if we lapsed as a country?

Now compare the lack of deaths with measles in the U.S. to deaths from flu, from pneumonia, even from whooping cough (pertussis), in 2012 there was 50 in the U.S
Mostly infant. There are scores more in those categories than the nary a one from measles.

Unfortunately, the DTaP was recently discovered to only mask carriers and not prevent them.

All this hubalub about forcing people by gun to vaccinage is about a "childhood" illness that has thankfully caused no deaths in 10 years and the damage is exponentially infinitesimal compared to the havoc of those dangerous reoccurring illnesses above. Again, I am speaking of the U.S.

The whole issue of forcing children to vaccinate hinges solely on the MMR vaccine and measles.

Their case to force children is garbage. You should not follow their schedule, you should do your due diligence to pursue as much info as you can, and you should definitely not allow the HEP B vaccine anywhere near your newborn.


Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 25 2019 1:39 utc | 214

the knowledge of bacteria and so-called viruses is very scarce. It is the duty of medicine to find answers and solutions, but they are not there at all. It is, we should remember, a very young science. Even Louis Pasteur confessed that it is not the bacteria; it is the environment.

When you put a wild animal, which is accustomed to natural environments, in a cage, that animal will react in a specific way. Escape is the primal response, because its life is in danger. When you do experiments with that animal in the cage it will respond in a not natural way. The primary response is escape, fear, survival. You will, without injecting substances, observe abnormal behaviour. Which often 'escapes' researchers minds because they don't know much about normal behaviour of wild animals. Because they never had the opportunity to observe wild animals in natural environment.

We are, next to spiritual beings, also in a bodily existence, and therefore follow the same instincts as animals. That's why medicine science uses apes, rabbits and rats as experimental animal. Which is disgusting by the way. The time when humanity decides to stop this atrocity, it will a good time. Now we witness a time when this is not the case, and we must suffer for all the pain that is created in the name of science. It will pass, fortunately, but it is hard to see it still prevail. It is apparently necessary for our understanding of nature and microorganisms, but it always hurts.

We don't know much about microorganisms. Without microorganisms we couldn't live. The soil couldn't life, mineral, floral, or fauna life. There would be no life. But we (the scientists), after discovering microorganisms, tend to see these primary living entities as a threat. We are disgusted by the knowledge of having billions of those creatures in our belly, that provide, even more disgusting, our very survival. It will take a couple of generations to finally see the purpose of it all. And finally get to the point.

Vaccination is actually a good idea. If we travel to another continent it may be useful, because our bodies are not accustomed to that other continents biosphere. People may die when exposed to drinking water at other places.

This is a very delicate and difficult topic. Has always been, and is even more difficult in a globalised world. Today people travel around the globe, sometimes with their pets, and this brings a lot of difficulties we haven't known before.

A definite answer is not there. It needs a lot more of research, and I expect that we, as a world community, won't get there soon.

I am no parent, so I can't say more. If I was I would be in a lot of trouble for sure. That's probably one reason I escaped this problem, among other troubles. Indeed I wasn't able to take on the responsibility for parenthood until 30. Which was already too late.

Posted by: Phil | Dec 25 2019 3:37 utc | 215

pogohere 213

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Posted by: Russ | Dec 25 2019 13:19 utc | 216

@Likklemore #193
Sadly, you don't get it. It doesn't matter if a vaccine provides proof against getting a disease. The question is if the vaccine confers overall benefit to the total population than not vaccinating.
The flu vaccine is an excellent example. It absolutely does not prevent anyone from getting the flu.
Its goal, however, is to make it so that the effects of the flu, if it is contracted, are greatly reduced so that many less people die.
The more you harp about things which are ancillary to the actual question, the less credible you become.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 0:12 utc | 217

@psychohistorian #200
If you can create a vaccine against gun deaths, then it should be implemented as public health policy.
However, it is far from clear to me that such a vaccine would make a difference since a large percentage of gun deaths is due to criminal violence and suicide.
I'm not actually for or against gun control per se - ultimately it is a function of the will of society. That it is mentioned in the Constitution is also an issue.
Nonetheless, your point is largely invalid because gun deaths is in the same category as car deaths: tragic but totally not comparable to disease.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 0:17 utc | 218

@psychohistorian #201
I can't remember the name of the fallacy you are engaging in here - it has to do with lumping many disparate things together into one, falsely.
I don't see at all why the high US suicide rate means we should not vaccinate (or vaccinate) - these are totally separate issues.
Suicide is very much a societal/social problem while disease is a medical one.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 0:21 utc | 219

@Phil 215

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

You bring up the effects of globalism and unrestricted traveling. This obviously creates problems with natural immunity and foreign diseases.

The poster pft has posited that quarantine and restrictions on travel should not be utilized because the cat is already out of the bag and introducing diseases helps build societal immunity. Am I wrong with this representation, pft?

Posted by: Nemesiscaling | Dec 26 2019 0:28 utc | 220

@Formerly T-Bear #198
I agree there is more to know - although the extent of human genetic variance is not actually that high.
Expressed genetics is significantly more, true.
However, I stand by my existing point: the vaccination routines today are clearly far better than not vaccinating.
I have read literally dozens of posts by the anti-vaxxers in this thread - they have yet to provide any evidence to the contrary against the above assertion.
Even the argument that "the relative amount of harm due to measles is not that high" is nonsense.
The CDC has a report on pre-1963 measles data source

3,000,000 - 4,000,000 cases a year
500,000 reported to the CDC
48,000 hospitalizations
1,000 cases of encephalitis (brain swelling
400-500 deaths
The US population today is double that of 1963, so presumably a magic wand removing all MMR vaccinations would soon see double the above numbers.
This would be a tremendous amount of suffering, death and cost - there is no valid reason whatsoever to think that "not vaccinating" is a better solution.
I also particularly like how these anti-vaxxer people seem to discount what is happening, as we speak, in Samoa. I guess brown people dying isn't the same as true blue Americans?
What a load of nonsense, particularly since the outbreak is in American Samoa. Those are Americans dying, albeit brown.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 0:32 utc | 221

Below is a repeat of something I wrote in reflection of/response to a comment by fellow barfly Jason who used the "Ok Boomer" meme on the "US Media Bias...." thread but it really belongs here

Ok Boomer


Ok Boomer, you got yours, but what is your legacy for the future of our species and world?

The Western world living under the dictatorship of those that own global private finance.
The Western world where freedom and democracy are dog whistles you have been trained to use to glorify your slavery to the dictatorship of global private finance.
The Western world saddled by generations of debt owed to the monied/inherited elite.
The Western world with a legal pecking order that has the financial derivative winners walking away with all the chairs when the music stops.

Ok Boomer, you got yours, but what is your legacy for the future of our species and world?

The Western world where monotheism reigns supreme in talk but not walk while logic and reason play 2nd fiddle.
The Western world where we know somethings about 5% of our Cosmos but have faith that religions are the answer to all life's questions if you have enough faith.
The Western world where you let yourself and your children be continually brainwashed by Plato's Cave Displays owned by the moneyed elite.
The Western world where social reality is Top/Bottom but you accept the brainwashing of and mouth Left/Right social polarizations.

Ok Boomer, you got yours, but what is your legacy for the future of our species and world?

The Western world where personal and societal bullying and aggression are the norm, not the exception.
The Western world where its ok to lie cheat and steal as long as you get away with it.
The Western world where socialism is bad and capitalism is good but reality is both and continually deprecated toward the latter.
The Western world where you are willing to send your children to die in wars of finance based empire to keep the monied/inherited elite in power/control.

Ok Boomer, you got yours, but what is your legacy for the future of our species and world?

The Western world where the inhumane top 1% are glorified and the bottom 1% are vilified.
The Western world where a serial adulterer and abuser of bankruptcy is selected to inculcate their values on government
The Western world where the supposed good leadership bails out private banking and kills global leadership trying to stand up to the dictatorship of global private finance.
The Western world where nuclear oblivion of our species/world is threatened against those that push for a multi-polar (public finance at the center of the social contract) world.

Ok Boomer, you got yours, but what is your legacy for the future of our species and world?

The Western world where poverty is rampant and obvious but you continue to believe those that say the social economy is great.
The Western world where risk management is measured in immediate financial profit instead of future conservation of the human and natural resources of our spaceship earth.
The Western world where it is too much trouble for you to demand a better social contract for the future of our species, one without global private, but public, finance at the core.
The Western world where the human traits of community, family and sharing of our forefathers are replaced by the cancerous human traits of individuality, autonomy and competition.

Ok Boomer, this is the legacy to society you are offering to those who come after with your self absorption and blind fealty to the God of Mammon dictatorship at the core of the Western social contract. Don't mind our lack of respect for you as we wait to piss on your graves.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 26 2019 2:20 utc | 222

Below is a link to a Washington Post article that show that China's reported social monitoring has competition

Colleges are turning students’ phones into surveillance machines, tracking the locations of hundreds of thousands

Some would call this freedom and democracy. I call it social slavery

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 26 2019 4:11 utc | 223

Below is a Xinhuanet posting about American politics

China releases article on money politics in U.S.

The take away quote
"
U.S. democracy is a political form through which the bourgeois rules. Given this, U.S. democracy naturally reflects the will of the capitalists and serves their interests, it said, adding that candidates of the two major political parties in the United States are merely representatives of different factions within the bourgeoisie.

Money politics exposes the nature of U.S. society and the lies of the United States when it is praising itself as the best example of exercising democracy and safeguarding human rights for the world.
"

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 26 2019 5:32 utc | 225

Below is another Xinhuanet link, this time about the ongoing Saudi bombing of Yemen which we don't read about in Western media

Ongoing fighting with daily Saudi-led airstrikes plunges Yemen into more chaos

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 26 2019 5:38 utc | 226

@ c1ue | Dec 26 2019 0:32 utc | 221

Do agree with your position, just looking at another angle of approach to making the pool of susceptible population as small as safely possible. It appears there are a few who may have a genetic condition that may react badly with the vaccine. Those should be identified if possible and identify what visible markers may be present and excuse those so affected from public vaccination programs (if possible). Like those few having genetic resistance to HIV, their numbers would not likely be sufficient to present any significant danger to the general population.

Those reacting negatively to vaccination out of irrational and/or instilled fears are of such numbers that would present a clear danger to the public at large; these are not likely to be reasoned with, attachment to emotional ignorance prevents communication. It is having a significant population at risk for some contagion that is the problem.

The solution is the complete elimination of the contagion worldwide (1 example, smallpox eliminated by vaccination), that includes parallel contagions in other species that have ability to jump species (TB between rodent, cattle and human). Vaccination has restricted the exposure to Polio to the extent that no serious threat to the population now exists (although some cases present themselves yet). Vaccination must not be ignorantly confused with antibiotic therapies used to treat diagnosed cases, or the genetic resistance the pathogens develop to antibiotic therapies.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Dec 26 2019 9:15 utc | 227

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Dec 26 2019 9:15 utc | 227

"Vaccination must not be ignorantly confused with antibiotic therapies used to treat diagnosed cases, or the genetic resistance the pathogens develop to antibiotic therapies."

If that was a veiled reference to what I say at 124 and have said several times before, I of course refer to the fraudulent political stance of the proxxer lynch mob in this culture war.

I refer to the self-evident fact that they express such frothing rage at an ad hoc group engaging in civil disobedience while having nothing to say that I've ever seen about the vastly worse systematic campaign of the corporate state against antibiotic efficacy. That proves they're liars when they invoke the "public health" and similar rationales. That proves such rationales are a proxy for their real motivation, an authoritarian worship of the state and the scientism cult.

It's very telling that no pro-vax frother has even attempted to answer my question, Where do you act against this vastly greater threat to public health?

If that's not what you were referring to, then my mistake in thinking so.

Posted by: Russ | Dec 26 2019 12:26 utc | 228

@ Russ | Dec 26 2019 12:26 utc | 228

Political "civil disobedience" does not qualify one's opinions as medical or even biological substance. If that is your argument, you are sadly misinformed about the issue. Where indeed is this "frothing rage" you rely upon for your judgment? Could it be a delusion of yours? Corporate state is a convenient misdirection, built upon libertarian theology, convenient strawman for the conspiracy theorist inclined minds to derail disagreeable facts or untenable positions. Nothing I wrote has anything to do with your delusions, I was not part of your conversations at any point - end of story.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Dec 26 2019 13:07 utc | 229

Good news. The new successes of the Syrian army in conquering its land from the invaders. Government forces took control of part of the Idlib zone (in the southeast), as well as a large piece of land in the north of the country, between Hasaka and Qamishli. The zone of American occupation is steadily shrinking.

Fresh infographics of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

Posted by: alaff | Dec 26 2019 13:52 utc | 230

Formerly T-Bear 229

"Political "civil disobedience" does not qualify one's opinions as medical or even biological substance."

Nor does being a corporate shill, no matter what one's nominal "credentials".

Meanwhile democracy does indeed give one a right to control one's own medical status.

"Where indeed is this "frothing rage" you rely upon for your judgment?"

It's been splattered all over the mainstream media and the internet for many years now. In this very thread there's been a cretin calling himself "Duncan idaho" who has no rational argument to make but instead openly expresses the homicidal fantasies he has toward these dissidents, a fantasy much of the lynch mob shares judging by their usual rhetoric.

"Corporate state is a convenient misdirection, built upon libertarian theology, convenient strawman for the conspiracy theorist inclined minds to derail disagreeable facts or untenable positions."

That's funny, it seems to me the main occupation of this site is to criticize the US corporate state, aka empire, aka Deep State (one important part of the corporate state), and express opposition to it.

"I was not part of your conversations at any point - end of story."

Well, I didn't see anyone else mention the corporate/government assault on antibiotics via industrial agriculture, so I assumed you were referring to my comment. At any rate you attacked this latest comment.

And like literally every other pro-corporate-vax propagandist, you refuse to answer the question: What have you done to oppose the vastly worse assault on public health* being perpetrated by corporate agriculture's demolition of antibiotics as a medically effective treatment?

A satisfactory answer to that is necessary to establish any bona fides as far as your alleged concern for public health, since non-vaccination is a relatively trivial matter compared to the antibiotic crisis, the wholesale industrial toxification of the diet and environment, the crisis of lack of affordable access to health care in the US, and others.


*I'm not saying non-vaccinators are any danger to public health. The evidence on that is very cloudy. But even if the pro-vax activists were right about that, the system's top-down assault on antibiotics is a vastly worse danger.

Posted by: Russ | Dec 26 2019 14:44 utc | 231

@ 231

See you have reading comprehension problems. Those I cannot address or solve.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Dec 26 2019 15:10 utc | 232

People who question and even refuse vaccines may or may not be a threat to the population.
Conclusions one way or the other are based on uncertainties and incomplete understanding. Vaccine policies are too important to be left to experts who insist they know what is best by the power of their self-appointed authority.

Vaccine dissenters are most definitely a threat to the State which insists on obedience without question. Nancy Reagan was correct about one thing: "Just Say No" is indeed a powerful message. If US peons ever learn the Power of No and say it in an organized way, the ground will shake. This is what Dear Leaders fear above all else.

In the US the concept of informed consent is rapidly eroding. The "informed" part has always been largely ignored by physicians - that's why they use so much Latin and Greek in their jargon. The "consent" part is already ignored when consent becomes inconvenient, such as when a person at the Emergency Room has their blood tested for "drugs". The doctors don't ask - they just do it, as has happened to me. Other cases are horrifying, such as forced colonoscopies to look for contraband.

Mandatory vaccines may (or may not) have great medical results, but the social effects of forced medical interventions will far outweigh any possible medical benefits.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Dec 26 2019 15:56 utc | 233

@233 About the force.

"vaccine" is whatever they say it is and is a "red-herring", a distraction. The illegal claims that the State has control over your body, owns you, and of injections of unknown material is the the important matter. search words "rockefeller vaccine africa sterilization" just in case you imagine they do not lie. They lie. It's what they do for a living.

If you can not refuse, then you're a slave.

..............

But to interesting question. I very much enjoy listening to Die Ballade vom Reichstagsbrand (Ernst Busch /Kurt Weill/Bertolt Brecht). This is to be found on YT. It's better than Tom Lehrer's best...

Alas, however, I can not find a text of the lyrics either in German or English.

But perhaps b or someone else might provide them...

Withal, they're great in German audio. Something for the Holiday period.

"back in the ddr" is fun too. see YT > Kari Peitsamo & Risto: Back in the DDR

Posted by: Walter | Dec 26 2019 16:12 utc | 234

@219 clue

I don't know what fallacy you are alluding to that psycho used, but it sure reminds me of the one that you used saying forced medical injections are in the same realm as stop signs within the sphere of public debate and governance.

Too easy, clue.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 26 2019 16:40 utc | 235

@Formerly T-Bear #229
There are already exemptions given to those who have demonstrated adverse reactions to vaccines.
The problem is that these exemptions are being abused by those who think that vaccines are dangerous.
I have no problem with ongoing research to try and identify potential genetic causes to adverse vaccine reaction - but the overwhelming evidence thus far is that it is extremely rare.
Again, the issue is that there are a large number of studies, with large population samples, that have not shown any difference in large cohort adverse effects such as autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated people.
There is, however, a very clear increase in diagnosis of various types of mental deficiencies and illnesses due to DSM5...

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 17:13 utc | 236

@Trailer Trash #233
You state that the problem is politics - then the solution is also politics.
I've stated before: if you think laws requiring vaccination are wrong, then change them.
In the meantime, any person is welcome to break the vaccination laws just as they are entitled to break any other law - and they also are subject to the consequences of doing so.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 17:16 utc | 237

@Nemesiscalling #235
You think you are witty.
You are half right.
All you have accomplished thus far is establish your credentials as a person who attacks anyone who disagrees with them at a personal level - and who cannot even muster enough effort to put out a high school level argument.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 17:18 utc | 238

@ c1ue | Dec 26 2019 17:18 utc | 238

Wondering which half - the 'w' or the 'itty' ?

I am appreciating now why there were so many comments by c1ue on the thread and can now appreciate why fully. Will be a wild time in Bedlam once the moon goes full.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Dec 26 2019 17:36 utc | 239

@238 clue

Yes, my high school education. You are not far off. I have a two year degree from community college. And certainly not in science. But your appeal to higher levels of education and the sanctity that lies therein says more about your belief in centralized, technocrat rule by science irrespective of the potential for tyranny that comes from such a position. Maybe you would be more appreciated in China, but in the West, we should preserve government that errs on the side of and protects liberty whenever a legitimite argument can be made in its favor. It takes statesmen, not scientists and bureaucrats.

Speaking of science, you don't need to be a scientist to see that given time, the effects of sanitation and natural and scientific means to combat measles in the west might have done just as good a job as the effects of artificial immunity through mass vaccination. It was never given that chance and so any scientist worth their salt would have to admit that we do not know what could have been.

And so my point that vaccines swooped in at the last moment and stole forever the credit from infrastructure and societal development that by its nature can not produce a profit, is a valid one and one that you will no doubt forever not acknowledge.

...

As for t-bear saying he was done with me in this debate and then calling me an idiot shortly thereafter, what a pathetic and useless contribution. And hypocritical to boot.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 26 2019 18:13 utc | 240

@Nemesiscalling #240
Sad, you equate formal education with wisdom or understanding.
The problem, as I see it, is that you have failed to express either, credentials notwithdstanding.
I've never once attacked your person, your credentials or any of the other ad hominem nonsense - something which you have not reciprocated.
And unlike you, I've presented a series of very clear value propositions which you still refuse to engage on.
And while I have and always will respect the ability for anyone and everyone to express their view - I equally have no obligation to agree with it, particularly when the view expressed is so lacking in substance.

In any case, it is abundantly clear that you and I disagree fundamentally on this subject.

My only regret is that you have completely failed to provide any form of new information, new viewpoints or even interesting theories on this subject - which means time was utterly wasted.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 18:23 utc | 241

@241 clue

Do you have reading comprehension issues or are you deliberately obfuscating, as per your usual tactic?

You attacked my contributions saying they were below even a "high school" level. You overvalued your high-level education. You overstate the sanctity of numbers that can never tell the whole story, when any fool can read the graph that shows the precipitous decline of complications from measles long before any vaccine. You refuse to acknowledge that the vaccine stole the credit for this and now venerates itself to such a level as misunderstood protector of the dumb and huddling masses.

You really are that slippery **** another poster mentioned.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 26 2019 18:33 utc | 242

@Nemesiscalling #242
Sorry, but as always, you project onto others what you suffer yourself.
Clearly your education doesn't extend to the point where you recognize that "presenting a high school level argument" refers to the argument, not to the credentials of the person.
Perhaps you might go back and review high school (and primary school) grammar textbooks.

Just out of curiosity - I went back and looked at a few of the ad hominem attacks you've visited on me.

You have said:

1) "I am smh at this garbage clue" - insulting what I referenced without even putting up any data of your own. This was in the 1st exchange, post #37.
2) "...Clue, it is obvious that you are a big shill. It makes no difference if you are big pharma, big gov, or biggie fry." This was the 2nd exchange in post #71. In contrast, I have never called you an anti-vax shill or even referred to you personally as an anti-vaxxer.
I have referred to anti-vaxxers in general in reference to their arguments, but I never have said they're stupid, they're ignorant, they're bad people, they're shills, they're dangers to society, they're killing babies, etc.

But please, by all means, post another response so that you can get that warm feeling of having the last word. \

Your own words (and mine) speak for themselves.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 19:15 utc | 243

Language is a Weapon. You fellas are running in circles. Try corbett with this topis "Language is a Weapon "

Y'all outta be ashamed o yerselvz.

I did hope...

Posted by: Walter | Dec 26 2019 20:51 utc | 244

Even vaccine use in developing countries is fraught with peril and lack of understanding.

The Polio Vaccine in Africa:

In a scathing report that month by the WHO’s Independent Monitoring Board (charged with evaluating the Global Polio Eradication Initiative), the report’s authors described the “uncontrolled” spread of vaccine-derived poliovirus across Africa, with vaccine-derived polio cases reported in 12 African countries and several Asian nations (including China) through October of 2019. The report noted that the resurgence of vaccine-derived polio raises “fundamental questions and challenges for the whole eradication process."

Hmmmm...so people can get the virus from the vaccine? I wonder what other vaccines shed?

The flue shot?

“The association of current and prior year vaccination with increased shedding of influenza A might lead one to speculate that certain types of prior immunity promote lung inflammation, airway closure, and aerosol generation. This first observation of the phenomenon needs confirmation. If confirmed, this observation, together with recent literature suggesting reduced protection with annual vaccination, would have implications for influenza vaccination recommendations and policies.”

What about measles with the MMR or similar vaccine?

In the midst of a local measles outbreak, a recently immunized child was investigated for a new-onset measles-type rash. Nucleic acid testing identified that a vaccine-type measles virus was being shed in the urine. Clinically differentiating measles from a nonmeasles rash is challenging, but can be supported by a thorough medical history evaluation. Rashes are expected to occur after immunization; nucleic acid testing can be used when it is difficult to differentiate between wild and attenuated strains.

So now that we have the ability to differentiate from wild and vaccine-strain measles in those infected with a virus displaying "measles-like" symptoms, is it crazy to assume that many of those who get the measles even though fully-vaccinated with the 2-dose MMR, could be carriers of vaccine-strain measles?

Dr. Suzanne Humphries believes it is very possible and also quite frightening. Will researchers now use this method to investigate these outbreaks, such as the one in Disneyland, California, in 2015, where 100+ people caught the measles, including ~20 of those who indeed were fully vaccinated? It was assumed that wild measles and the unvaccinated were the culprit, with the fully vaccinated being the unlucky few that the wild disease managed to penetrate and infect.

But what Dr. Suzanne Humphries is postulating is that it could have been a vaccine-strain measles which in fact caused the outbreak.


Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 26 2019 23:44 utc | 245

Us "Anti-Vaxxers" are just using emotion and are being manipulated in an emotive, manipulating spiral of emotional manipulation. Eh, T-Bear?

While were on the subject of fear mongering, here is a relatively unfounded correlational study which shows a linear regression model indicating the higher the vaccine amounts, the greater the Infant Mortality Rate (IMR) number. Is that unscientific? Too scientific? Not high-school enough? Too high-school?

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 27 2019 1:39 utc | 246

@vk 212

Your argument (and the argument in the article you linked here) doesn't make any sense, because vaccines are not drugs: their goal is precisely to develop the individual's immunological resistance - precisely what you claim it is already necessary for the individual to have before taking it

I am not sure what you are trying to say here? Either I did not express myself very well and you misunderstood me, or I have missed something in what you are saying.

My point was not that vaccines are drugs, or that one should have immunity prior to vaccination, but that certain populations have aquired some resistance to some endemic diseases due to the fact that prior generations have been exposed - as European descended populations had aquired some resistance to measles, which is why death rates were steadily falling in 'western' countries, but outbreaks in other areas of the world caused huge numbers of deaths. Therefore, even before measles vaccine became common in 'western' countries, death rates were low and still falling.

You say

The vaccine gives you the best of the two worlds: a prepared immunological system without having to have the disease.

But this is not entirely true for all vaccines, and in particular for measles. Contracting the disease gives life long immunity, and also transfers immunity from women to their infants in the first year of life. Vaccinations do not give lifelong immunity, which is why when we have measles outbreaks in vaccinated populations, the people who contract measles are not only the unvaccinated, but infants and older children (teens) and adults whose vaccinated immunity has decreased.

When my older children were young, it made sense to me to expose them to measles, mumps, and rubella so they would have the superior immunity derived from that. However, these diseases are no longer endemic in our population, so if I was deciding now, I would ensure that my children were vaccinated before adulthood - as I did for my younger children.

I am not universally against vaccines, I am greatful that smallpox and polio are rare now. I question the number and timing of vaccines recommended for children now, and support my younger friends and my children when they choose to not adhere to the recommended schedule unquestioningly.

@c1ue
I do appreciate that you do not resort to name calling and discourtesy in your disagreements.

Posted by: Lorna MacKay | Dec 27 2019 3:33 utc | 247

B, often times I detect anger in your online sleuthing, your fact-checking, and your rebuttals against a seemingly deranged and bias media that doesn't care how much money we give to Syrian "Rebels," or Israel, or how many hospitals we inadvertently bomb in Afghanistan. Well, I find it unfortunate that you are on a side that I feel refuses that same obligation to tell the truth. I am speaking of your linking of that Texas news rag article about that Dr. Pushing vaccines. But you put it out there so we can only assume that you have given us your blessing to debate this important topic here, and I appreciate that. I think we have all tried to keep our emotion in check and not be too annoying in our appeals.

However, anger runs deep on both sides of this debate. I feel history will stand on my side, even though we will be subjected to further encroaching of tyranny in the mean time by incomplete science and officials who believe in the infallibility of that wanting science.

I speak of anger because I would ask you to take the time and look at this gentleman's video where he takes apart, using available studies, the notion that the influenza vaccine is safe and imparts a net benefit. I believe he makes a fantastic case albeit showing anger that can be off putting. I ask people to survey this piece because it shows the emotional aspect of fighting injustice and lies and the effect it can have on someone who so desperately wants to do something about it.

If anything, treat with suspicion those cold logicians who use the tyranny of numbers and prove to be mild mannered sycophants and yes men. You can always tell them a mile away, devoid of the emotion one can not hide from when a genuine witness to something of grave importance.

From one angry sleuth to another. We owe them our gratitude.

Here ya go.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 27 2019 4:41 utc | 248

The 'humanitarian bombers'...
Enablers of US imperialism ,

https://www.counterpunch.org/2004/12/11/calling-the-humanitarian-bombers-to-account/

Kosovo, Libya, Iraq, Syria, Tibet, Xinjiang, HK, ......

We've this species right here in MOA.

Posted by: denk | Dec 27 2019 4:56 utc | 249

c1ue | Dec 26 2019 18:07 utc | @224

Hi.
I posted a comment to our nascent discussion of the renewable energy thingamy back on the last open thread...

I hope you read it...at your leisure.

I have a head full of information about that jazz, to the point that I'm starting to get all P.T.S.D about it. Too much time invested, too many cycles of faux-care from various local, state, and national governments, and a market taken over by spivs.

It doth be what it is...

Posted by: Jon_in_AU | Dec 27 2019 10:14 utc | 250

Posted by: Jon_in_AU | Dec 27 2019 10:14 utc | 250

Jon, although I am not c1ue, I am quite interested in topic of alternate energy, and visited discussion you highlighted... bottom line, what is your question?

I live at about 45 degrees N (latitude) and have a Schneider XW+6848 inverter, PDP & MPPT 60/150 charge controller with 15 panels & 2x8 bank of AGM batteries. Being in a rural setting, surrounded by lots of trees, grid power is sketchy, and subject to frequent brown/black-outs. So my system, as it stands now, is like a glorified UPS (whole house). As well, it does reduce the grid bill somewhat as solar power is my primary go-to before I start drawing on the grid. The gameplan in 2020 is to add 30 more PVs & batteries & wind-turbine to extend our blackout resiliency and reduce our grid dependency.

Posted by: xLemming | Dec 27 2019 15:18 utc | 251

xLemming@251

I had no specific question to pose, but was just having a random rant to c1ue about the potential of R.E. to power the entirety of Australia's (NEMCO) grid.

Great to hear you have moved in that direction (self-sufficiency in energy).

Australia is an odd case due to the vast distances covered to supply a relatively small population with electricity (approx. the size of 'the lower 48', but with just over 25M hominids to cater for). Consequently, the transmission/network costs are the lions share of electricity costs down-under.

We also have a lot of 'fringe-grid' areas prone to brown-outs/black-outs, which presents problems even when the whole place isn't on fire (as it is currently) which just adds to the reliability issues and dangers of more fires created by falling power lines.

I take it from your comment that you are running a 48Vdc (nominal) system, probably utilising something like Trojan 6V mono-blocks in two parallel strings. Plenty of storage for a modest power usage.

If only you were just up the street, I'd be keen to see your set-up.

Thanks for the comment.

Posted by: Jon_in_AU | Dec 27 2019 16:46 utc | 252

Jon_in_AU@250/252

Further to my warble on renewable energy, this was on ABC-News24 channel today:

7.30 Special - Power Shock

Worth the 30 minutes viewing to see a good overview of energy in Australia, for those interested in the topic.

I pity the poor guy from Queensland who had a Clenergy PV inverter installed. I have removed and replaced more of those hunks of junk than I've had hot dinners...

Posted by: Jon_in_AU | Dec 28 2019 2:05 utc | 253

The world's Muslims supported the fukus concocted R2p[lunder] in Ex Yugoslavia.

Muslims are up in arms again, falling for the fukus agitated campaign to 'save the Muslim UIghurs in Xinjiang and the Rohingyas in Myanmar'.

fukus really know how to play that Ummah tune, works like a charm, every single time.

Posted by: denk | Dec 28 2019 3:00 utc | 254

Below is a ZH link about the beginning of the joint Ira/China/Russia naval exercises in the Gulf in spite of being told not to by the US

"We Cannot Be Isolated": Iran Warns At Start Of Joint Naval Drills With Russia & China

The take away quote
"
The US meanwhile, warned in a statement that Iran should "think twice" about following through with the joint exercises, a message already clearly ignored.
"

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 28 2019 4:27 utc | 255

The body bags are starting to come back to the US from Iraq as the Reuters link below shows

U.S. civilian contractor killed in Iraq base rocket attack: officials

The take away quote
"
Several U.S. service members and Iraq personnel were also wounded, the U.S.-led coalition fighting Islamic State said in a statement, adding that Iraqi security forces would be leading the response and investigation into the incident.
"

Posted by: psychohistorian | Dec 28 2019 5:55 utc | 256

attention karlof1...

in response to the commentary you highlighted the other day from putin.. check this out...

‘We will not be lectured’: Russia stands by Putin calling pro-Hitler Polish WWII envoy ‘bastard & anti-Semitic pig’

thank you again for the many educational posts!

Posted by: james | Dec 28 2019 6:22 utc | 257

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