To all, a peaceful and joyful Christmas. Thank you, Bernhard.

Posted by: Copeland | Dec 24 2019 17:15 utc | 4

Christianity moved the day on which it commemorates the birth of Jesus to the winter solstice.
I an interested in this claim. I always understood the difference between eastern and western Christmas dates was just due to errors/interpretations/corrections in date calculation?
Also doesn’t the date of the solstice change every year with the discrepancy between solar and lunar calenars?

Posted by: BM | Dec 24 2019 17:32 utc | 6

@ Posted by: BM | Dec 24 2019 17:32 utc | 5
Assuming the New Testament as a genuine historical document, there are two hypothesis among historians who are specialists in the subject:
1) that Jesus was born somewhere in the northern hemisphere’s spring or even summer (between April and July). If memory doesn’t fail me, this is based on the descriptions of the Bible itself of the weather the moment Jesus was about to be born (and, maybe, some events which they can estimate based on Roman History). This is the most widely accepted hypothesis nowadays;
2) that Jesus was born somewhere at the end of October. If I’m not mistaken, this is based on the most probable date of Mary’s conception, which should have happened somewhere to the second half of January (it’s been a long time since I read this hypothesis, so don’t ask me how they came up with that). Assuming the fact that Jesus was apparently born healthy (infant mortality in the Ancient World was through the roof, so it’s not realistic to assume he was born prematurely if he reached adulthood), then a nine-month gestation period was the most probable, which lands his birth in October.
I may have mixed the explanation for the two hypotheses, but the explanations are basically these: both use the New Testament itself as documental sources (with a good dose of educated guesses from Roman History), and both either use descriptions of the weather and other sociological phenomenon or Mary’s conception date.
Now, the year of birth of Jesus is much more fun to debate, albeit it is much less polemic than the year date of his birth. The only certainty is that Jesus definitely wasn’t born in 1 A.D. – a random Roman bishop came up with that estimate some 300 years later, so this is not very controversial.

Posted by: vk | Dec 24 2019 17:47 utc | 8

Thanks, b! And a very Merry Christmas to you, too.

Posted by: Seamus Padraig | Dec 24 2019 18:16 utc | 10

Once again, Merry Christmas to B. and all the barflies*, if it ain’t out o’ keepin’ with the situation.
* Excepting barflies who object to being Merry Christmased.

Posted by: Ort | Dec 24 2019 18:49 utc | 12

@ BM | Dec 24 2019 17:32 utc | 5

I always understood the difference between eastern and western Christmas dates was just due to errors/interpretations/corrections in date calculation?

The Eastern (Orthodox) churches and the Wester (Catholic) churches have different dates for Christmas because they used different calendars all year long. This has been true since the year 1582, when Pope Gregory XIII authorized a new calendar to replace the old Julian one still used by some Orthodox churches. That’s why the Russians, for example, celebrate Christmas on Jan. 7 — because it corresponds to Dec. 25 on the Julian calendar.

Also doesn’t the date of the solstice change every year with the discrepancy between solar and lunar calenars?

No. Solstice (and Equinox) dates are determined solely by the sun and the solar calender; the moon has nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Seamus Padraig | Dec 24 2019 19:09 utc | 14

Yes, a merry Christmas season to all! The discrepancy between old and new Christian calendars has so far only stretched 13 days, which is workable in that old calendar Christmas falls close to new calendar Epiphany or Twelfth Night as in the Shakespeare play. Also, old calendar other feasts sit better with the moveable feast of Easter or Pascha than do the new, since that depends on the full moon and is thus always astronomically determined.
I personally love the old calendar observances since they stretch back uniformly out of astronomical determinations in an unbroken sequence, thereby giving added significance to Easter, which is the crucial point of reference for the Orthodox. As to the others, the approximation I always feel is ‘close enough for folk music’ as we always used to say when tuning our guitars.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 24 2019 19:19 utc | 16

Merry Christmas to b and all the barflies. I echo previous statement to thank b for all he does. Yours is a truly impressive site.
(I have also heard that Dec. 25th was also the an important date of the Egyptian god Osiris – I believe his birthday. So many pagan dates have been rolled into the Christian mythos.)

Posted by: naiverealist | Dec 24 2019 19:42 utc | 18

Calculations of Jesus’ birth, as to the time of year and the year itself surely have to take into account the astral phenomenon of the Star of Bethlehem that supposedly appeared at the time of his birth. The Three Wise Men who visited Jesus and his earthly parents in the stable are thought to have been Persian astrologers.
I recall reading something decades ago (I don’t remember the source) that the Star of Bethlehem may have been a conjunction of several planets (Jupiter and Saturn especially) in the constellation of Pisces. Astrologers believe the Age of Pisces began around this time. Currently we are supposedly in transition from the Age of Pisces (lasting some 2,000 years) into the Age of Aquarius. Such transitions are, needless to say, characterised by major, often drastic changes in culture, politics and ideology across regions lasting decades and even a few hundred years.
Supposedly the nations and regions of the world that are favoured by the transition into the Age of Aquarius are those considered by astrologers to be ruled by Aquarius, Libra and Capricorn. Saturn is the ruler of Capricorn, co-ruler of Aquarius (with Uranus) and has some special association with Libra because of Libra being the sign of balance. The nations and regions ruled by Capricorn include India, England, Australia and parts of the Balkans; those ruled by Aquarius include northern Europe, Russia and Iran; those ruled by Libra are nations of the Sinosphere (China and its immediate neighbours).
Nations ruled by Cancer (the US, Canada), Leo (France) and Aries (Britain, Germany) won’t do so well in the Age of Aquarius.
Food for thought, eh?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to B and all here at the MoA bar!

Posted by: Jen | Dec 24 2019 19:56 utc | 20

Interesting that so many different cultural and religious traditions across the Middle East, North Africa and Europe have been subsumed into the Christian religion, as expressed in that religion’s traditions and celebrations.
Ancient pagan Slavic peoples, themselves influenced by contacts with Iranian cultures (Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans and some others) saw in the winter solstice, the death of the old god Svarog and the birth of the new god Svarozhich. Because of the Iranian connection, Slavic religious beliefs also accepted the principle of duality (light versus darkness, good versus evil, good god versus bad god / devil) – a principle that also entered Judaism and later Christianity through the influence of Zoroastrianism while the Jewish people were under Achaemenid Persian rule from 500s BCE onwards until Alexander the Great and his forces destroyed that dynasty.

Posted by: Jen | Dec 24 2019 20:14 utc | 22

Silly typo above on your name, Bernhard. Cheers

Posted by: FSD | Dec 24 2019 20:20 utc | 24

merry christmas everyone! jonku – moonbats… i like that! ditto your comment to b in fostering this place as well..

Posted by: james | Dec 24 2019 20:55 utc | 26

God Jul, Bernhard

Posted by: Norwegian | Dec 24 2019 21:16 utc | 28

December the 25th was, I believe, the Christian Church appropriating the midwinter norse holiday of Yule (and of Yule Log fame).
When asked about his favourite nativity character, the young lad answered “The Wise Men” because, he explained, they were the ones that brought presents!

Posted by: Kaiama | Dec 24 2019 21:32 utc | 30

Merry Xmas b and thank you for inspiring, enraging and informing us. Merry Xmas to all barflies, may you keep your minds sharp and you research wide.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Dec 24 2019 22:03 utc | 32

Some may want to delve into what were known/called Mystery Religions as they have a very intimate connection with the early Christian Church. Then there’s Mithra and its connection to Zoroastrianism and the further development of monotheism. There’s a 2000 year old debate about the existence or not of an “historical Christ,” an actual mortal human that is referenced in the Dead Sea Scrolls, gave the sermon noted in Leviticus 25, and did indeed try to gain the salvation of his people through an odd radical/conservative attempt to reestablish the primacy of Mosaic Law and its Jubilee Year (conservative) while purging Judaism of its heretical rabbis and collaborators with Rome’s enslavement of God’s People the Pharisees (radical). This entire issue has been my longest historical examination as it began when I attended Sunday School as a preteen and is finally beginning to make sense as I read … and forgive them their debts. The key documents–it’s now assumed all have now been recovered/found–are the Dead Sea Scrolls and similar Gnostic scrolls that survived at the Library of Alexandria, and presumably existed at other contemporary libraries like the one at Ephesus. Perhaps one of the most important facts I learned from my history profs is that the three main figures in the Abrahamic Religions–Moses, Jesus, Muhammad–were all social reformers who wanted to free the common people from the bondage of wealthy oligarchies–actual history that’s been flushed down the memory hole by the institutions that stole their names to enrich themselves. That brings us to the penultimate question: Is there a God/Goddess or just Nature? Metaphysics is supposed to tackle that but we see no learned debate, only commercial come-ons.
We couldn’t teach religions in school aside from providing students with their historical context or studying them in comparison to each other–and even those could get you, the teacher, into trouble. And for some very entertaining reading in cultural anthropology, I suggest Eden in the East, which would make a great gift for the curious on your list. Something else I suggest reading and/or viewing is Joseph Campbell’s The Masks of God series of 4 volumes or watch the interview series The Power of Myth with Bill Moyers as interlocutor. I’d be remiss not to mention The Hero With a Thousand Faces that Lucas used as the basis for his Star Wars.
Gosh, after writing all that I forgot to wish everyone a belated Solstice and an excellent beginning of the New Year!

Posted by: karlof1 | Dec 24 2019 22:23 utc | 34

Dear Bernard, Merry Christmas ans Happy New Year to you and yours. And thank you for your work.

Posted by: bob sykes | Dec 24 2019 22:48 utc | 36

Many thanks to B for excellent reporting again this year – and may there be many more years to come.
Season’s Greetings to all readers. May we all be blessed with a peaceful, healthy, and prosperous 2020.

Posted by: Carrie | Dec 24 2019 23:06 utc | 38

Celebrating Christmas in Aleppo(even if it might be from last year)

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Dec 24 2019 23:38 utc | 40

Though I don’t always agree with your take on things I do have to give you credit for letting everyone have their say here and most of all for posting corrections when you see you were wrong on something.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year B, and thank you.

Posted by: Nothing | Dec 25 2019 1:23 utc | 42

it is a relief to see that the winter solstice is mentioned in many websites (message boards, blogs). Quite often people wish others ‘happy winter solstice’ instead of ‘happy christmas’, or both. I wasn’t aware of that because I didn’t follow the internet that much. It is a sign that it has become well known that christianity has borrowed a lot from ancient (older than christianity) traditions, including building cathedrals and churches on old pagan sites. I find this good because it directs us to the original source. Similar to how we sensed the world when we were a child, with direct access, and without intellectual concepts.
The winter solstice is a wonderful time. Every moment in time is wonderful, but in the northern hemisphere it is more dark, allowing more time for introspection and quietness.
—
There are lots of interesting thoughts presented here, so let me thank you all here (which is very rare). Bernhard has a way of saying things which is exceptional (which is also rare, although less rare of course). Also thanks for the links to music. I love some lyrical religious music, especially traditional chants. Polyphonic chants are some of the most precious music humans have created, or, have been inspired to sing. The human voice is the best instrument available. While built instruments are one of the best inventions of humanity.
Speaking of music, I find the works of Arvo Pärt, a contemporary composer, rather interesting. I wanted to post a link to some of his works, inspired by the links to music of the Russian Orthodox Church, which I admire. But I didn’t really feel the sound of the performance in YT links, despite excellent audio card and reference monitors. It’s better to get a Compact Disk from the music store.

Posted by: Phil | Dec 25 2019 1:48 utc | 44

season’s greetings Bernhard n all,
not a big supporter of xmas meself, altho it does provide an excuse to catch up with many of the humans I most care about, it gets more difficult each year that passes to discern genuine feelings beneath the forced bonhomie expressed at this time each year out in the world.
Not that people have got any worse, just the forces oppressing most of us make it tough to see the light at the end of the tunnel, so most of us turn inwards to those closest to us personally a little more each year.
I get to whine about the pretentiousness of current consumerist culture. Most of my guests are aware I’ve started drinking spirits (specifically scotch) once more and many have turned up with bottles of (imo) yuk ‘single malt’ which to my jaded palette all suffer from some ugly and overwhelming taste.
I’ve just had a hit of one called Lagavulin at a de facto son in laws insistence. I’m not kidding it tasted like what I imagine those blocks of whatever cleaners put in public urinals taste like.
They think I’m being polite when I say “just a scotch blended is fine, even Teachers in a pinch”.
Yep first world problems which pale into insignificance if you read something like this article. It is about how all the xtians who have been living in occupied Palestine since the crusades or maybe earlier, have been driven outta their homes by the zionists. The old churches are getting sold to xtian zionists from amerikan churches who can then have their extra special hugely expensive, only for major tithers, xmas service in ‘real olde Bethlehem’. arseholes.
I took the article to show a bloke in the next valley over, he’s some sorta senior god botherer in one of the evangelical mobs that pull these stunts. He claims to be anti zionist but didn’t seem to be interested in passing stuff on the truth about occupied Palestine’s xtians around his fellow travellers.
This is typical – not of just xtians, but all humans cowering within their particular belief set desperate to avoid anything which could call their beliefs into question.
Hmm didn’t mean to be a downer, the disinfectant taste has abated so I better get back into the ‘get together’ eh.

Posted by: A User | Dec 25 2019 3:19 utc | 46

@ A User #45

I’ve just had a hit of one called Lagavulin at a de facto son in laws insistence. I’m not kidding it tasted like what I imagine those blocks of whatever cleaners put in public urinals taste like. They think I’m being polite when I say “just a scotch blended is fine, even Teachers in a pinch”

Lagavulin is one of the Islay whisky’s, where they dry the malt on a peat fire. This adds smoke to the flavor. Many Scotch whisky’s add some smoke to it but the Islays more than others. People who smoke tend to like it, but as a non-smoker I prefer Irish Whiskey. Note the difference in spelling as the Irish write it. They prefer not to spoil a perfect whiskey with smoke and as a result it usually tastes smoother than Scotch, certainly not like a urinal cake. Redbreast is my favorite. Bushmills is good too, but even the cheap Paddy or Jameson will do.

Posted by: Joost | Dec 25 2019 8:36 utc | 48

respect…

Posted by: lotsofnoise | Dec 25 2019 9:09 utc | 50

Many thanks to B for all his hard work and insightful commentary and a Merry Christmas to all…
If you don’t know, learn.
If you do know, teach.
If you break something, fix it.
If you make a mess, clear it up.
If you’re shown kindness, show kindness.
If you’re wealthy, give back.
If you have a talent, use it.
If you doubt, investigate.
If someone tells you what to think, decide for yourself.
If someone tells you that you can’t do something, do it.
If you’re loved, love back.
If you’re hated, ignore it….
https://richardhennerley.com/2019/12/25/some-christmas-thoughts/

Posted by: Richard | Dec 25 2019 9:25 utc | 52

Christmas greetings to B and all Barflies. Collective intelligence and wit beats MSM lies and other ….
May there be a bit peace this coming year.

Posted by: Eric Bloodaxe | Dec 25 2019 10:51 utc | 54

re: V | Dec 25 2019 9:41 utc @ 52
Not to be considered a *spoilsport* and raised as a Christian, I’d like to wish You- *V*, a very Merry Christmas.
Yes.
The journey is long for us american ‘ex-pats’.
Understanding that We have been deceived from birth is a rude awakening.
So.
Good Cheer to You as well. 🙂
Thanks for the suggested reading.
I’ll put in on my list of possible future reads.
Regarding older books and Christianity, I actually have a 1948 hardcover edition of the Rev. J.W. Morgan’s book from 1860
*St. Paul In Britain The Origin of British Christianity* on it’s way at this very moment from New South Wales Australia. I heard the documentation of the *Druidic Culture* was excellent out of a historical perspective.
This was the primary reason to get this book.
The secondary reason was of course, the ‘historical discrepancy’ between the *Glastonbury*-connection vs the Roman catholic-version from a few hundred years later.
My question is, “what’s the Truth?”.
(cough-cough), veritas anyone?
🙂
From the current publisher:
“That St. Paul planted Christianity in the British Isles over five centuries before the arrival of St. Augustine is well-documented from little known sources by the Rev. R. W. Morgan in 1860. His research determined that Christianity was first introduced into Britain by Joseph of Arimathea around 36-39 A.D.; followed by the apostle Simon Zelotes; then by Aristobulus the first bishop of the Britons; then by St. Paul.
It’s first converts were members of the royal family of Siluria…that is Gladys the sister of Caradoc, Gladys ( Claudia ) and Eurgen his daughters, Linus his son converted in Britain before they were carried into captivity to Rome; then Caradoc Bran and the rest of the family converted at Rome.
Two of the most rigid Roman Catholics of their period Polydore Vergil in the reign of Henry VII and after him Cardinal Pole ( A.D. 1555 ) affirmed in Parliament that “Britain was the first of all countries to receive the Christian faith.”
…Morgan supplies historical facts that support the claim of the early arrival in Britain following the crucifixion of Christ of Joseph of Arimathea and his company including Lazarus Mary Martha Marcella and Maximin. They came at the invitation of certain high ranking Druids from Marseilles into Britain around 38 – 39 A.D. building the first church on the Isle of Avalon….”
https://www.artisanpublishers.com/paul-britain-origin-british-christianity-p-25571.html
…I can go on and on and on with the unfortunate ‘false narrative’ we human beings have been feed throughout the ages.
Looks like Christianity falls into that category as well.
Enjoy the rest of the day now *V*.
X-

Posted by: Veritas X- | Dec 25 2019 12:21 utc | 56

… and to you too, B. Our days will get shorter down here now, but lit with the fires of Global Heating, brewed by the profiteers who’ve been tireless in hiding its effects. No longer to be hidden. Sorry… wrong sentiment here, but its ferocity here has consumed most of us. Complacent Australians are starting to look around.
Enjoy your time with family; 2020 will be quite a year, am sure.

Posted by: PaulH | Dec 25 2019 12:52 utc | 58

As an afterthought to all talk of Nativity: All along the littoral of the Med, the growing season goes from late Fall and until the harvesting of grains in Spring. So the low lands of Magna Graecia, Athika, Sparta/Kalamata, and Eboya ere very verdant around Yule, whilst Thebes and North Macedonia were freezing. Likewise tha coastlands of the Philistines and lower Galilee real nice in Winter, and only the high places (Lebanon, Judea, Al Quds al-Sharif and Bethlehem were wet and cold. I remember how my family joined in with Russian Olim hadas Jews to drive to Bethlehem’s two Christian Butchers’ shops for pork chops and ribs to satisfy their Slavic soles’ yearning for something good to be the bed for their downing of vodka and Lebanese royal raki spirits. But the only thing to go down well in the Yule here in the seventh climate between bouts of Glühwein will remain Calvados shots interspersed with Linje Akkevitt — Aqua vita in oak barrels that have crossed The Line with Norse ships, sailed to Australia and come back to Vinmonopolet(Oslo)/Systembolaget(Stockhom) and Finnish state monopoly Alki a year later for midwinter celebratins of returning Sun.

Posted by: JoveBove/區司 | Dec 25 2019 13:49 utc | 60

Merry Christmas to all!

Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Dec 25 2019 14:34 utc | 62

Merry Christmas to all..
The Royal Family went to a church service at Sandringham. Look closely and you can see Prince Andrew behind an Israeli flag.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50908038

Posted by: dh | Dec 25 2019 15:43 utc | 64

Merry Christmas to all here.
Christmas Eve Propaganda from PBS Newshour
Last night, I watched Trading Places for a Christmas movie and then turned to the digital broadcast realm before turning in.
I caught a few minutes of PBS Newshour and a segment on Idlib. I was about to change channels when they mentioned Mesurier and the White Helmets. They could not resist pushing the usual agenda. After a brief history of his initial training, they abruptly switched to RT with Vanessa Beeley. They ran her accusations of organ trafficking to portray her as a conspiracy theorist. David Miller of the Syrian Working Group was interviewed only to be denigrated for suggesting the chemical attack accusations were false or staged.
Mysterious death of White Helmets co-founder spotlights toxic propaganda

Posted by: Curtis | Dec 25 2019 17:10 utc | 66

The belief that a cosmic jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree…
—-Yeah,makes perfect sense.

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Dec 25 2019 17:27 utc | 68

Best news website on the net thank you B..Great year, Merry Christmas
A friend an I made our annual Christmas eve tour of my southern USA town (400K) we checked our list of 300 homes as we do each year, since 1965. This year fewer than 3% of the homes had outdoor decorations this reflects a definite change in the attitude of my home town.. as last year it was about 38%.. Maybe barflies could make such a round of their town and report to the bar if such a decline seems noticeable?
on a different note look at this
gas for xmas

Posted by: snake | Dec 25 2019 18:17 utc | 70

Merry Christmas to all!
I celebrate Jul (jool, wheel) on December 21. This marks the turning of the Sun, back up on the sky in the new year.
Christmas and New Years are both derivatives or substitutes of this. We are the Norse, the native Nordics, and this is our culture.

Posted by: Alexander Grimsmo | Dec 25 2019 18:41 utc | 72

Happy and wonderful season to all the MoA community, with the hope that more of humanity can actually live what they profess to believe…

Posted by: ben | Dec 25 2019 20:21 utc | 74

The same to you all, but do not forget, contemplate also this…
France, the country were there is yet class conscience, on strike against demolition of pension system…qué poco dura la alegría en la casa del pobre….
The French working class, whatever their condition, is mobilized and continues its pulse against Macron and pension reform. The workers of the Paris Opera were in the street yesterday. Merry Christmas. #greve25decembre
The Paris Opera’s ballet dancers are on strike against austerity
Happy birthday comrade Jesus!
And, eventhough, this is a time for peace and love…do not forget there are some people who only love themselves and do not deserve your love…or tolerance badly understood…in the past working peers have it totally clear…
Don´t be a scab… NYC between 1915 y 1920.
Greetings to all workers who will not be with their family today. To those who have lost their job. A hug to all who are on strike today and my full support to the French working class in their struggle. Let’s not despair, victory is near. #Happy Holidays
But what happens with these people, the precariat, and how they arrived in this situation of patron assisted suicide?
Alimerka workers struggle to reach € 14,000 a year and so that the mandatory 20-minute rest is counted as work and does not have to be recovered.
Meanwhile, other workers who are in those same precarious conditions …
Great goal of capitalism

Posted by: Sasha | Dec 25 2019 21:35 utc | 76

Merry Christmas, b, and thanks for all you do.

Posted by: nihil obstet | Dec 25 2019 22:06 utc | 78

Wonderful says it all!!!

Like every Christmas I visit my larger family and enjoy to cook for them.

My parents were war refugees. Long story. But no cousins, uncles, aunts, grandparents etc. No family.
But after decades, my edgy and sorta crazy comment on family: “Family may treat you like shit, but without a family you are shit.”
Good holidays to your and your family. Hey, what did you cook?

Posted by: Erelis | Dec 25 2019 23:27 utc | 80

Merry Christmas! Thank you for hosting, b.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 26 2019 0:21 utc | 82

Random winter trivia:
The “terrible winter in Valley Forge” (1777) was actually considered a mild one for that era.
The 1770s were right in the middle of the Little Ice Age; had Washington wanted to cross the Delaware in 1778 instead of 1776 – he might have been able to walk across because both New York and Boston harbors froze solid that year.

Posted by: c1ue | Dec 26 2019 0:41 utc | 84

V | Dec 25 2019 9:41 utc @ 52
Not to be considered a *spoilsport* and raised as a Christian, I’d like to wish You- *V*, a very Merry Christmas.
Yes.
The journey is long for us american ‘ex-pats’.
Understanding that We have been deceived from birth is a rude awakening.
So.
Good Cheer to You as well. 🙂
Well, and a very merry Christmas and good cheer to you also.
More than just a matter of semantics; I consider myself as self exiled rather than an expat.
I swore I’d leave if Bush used his lies to attack Iraq; he did.
And so did I 8 weeks later…
From my early 20’s I’ve studied comparative religions and have always found it fascinating and a window into various cultures.
And I agree that unravelling a life time of lies through “education” is an arduous, but very rewarding pursuit.
Best to your coming new year…

Posted by: V | Dec 26 2019 2:24 utc | 86

It would be simply great if everyone treated each day like xmas as opposed to treating people better on this and only this date. Sad really.

Posted by: Tonymike | Dec 26 2019 2:39 utc | 88

merry christmas b and barfly crew. w/love

Posted by: annie | Dec 26 2019 5:38 utc | 90

@ Posted by: BM | Dec 26 2019 13:10 utc | 91
No. The only accepted documentation of Jesus by serious historians nowadays are all in the New Testament (the Gospels and some other texts).
To state Jesus’ youth years are well documented in written form is to assume his contemporaries knew, from the moment of his birth, that he was the Chose One. That would imply human beings having the superpower of predicting the future. Since that would be a biological absurdity, we know for sure Jesus’ youth was 100% undocumented.
There is a lot of evidence most of the New Testament is fabricated. The reason for this is that the people who wrote the texts that later made the Bible did not do so with the objective of documenting the historical truth, but to send a religious-philosophical message.
Very few historical “facts” can be inferred from Jesus’ life as described in the New Testament: he was probably baptized, he was very likely crucified, he was a Jew, he was a prophet, he most certainly spoke Aramaic (mother tongue) and maybe a little bit Latin, he was possibly low class, but not the lowest class, and he was probably an apocaliptic prophet and he most likely never travelled outside Judaea. Of all these historical “facts”, his crucifixion is the single event that proves his existence (by Ancient History standards).
Another very important thing: Jesus’ “Christianism” was for sure very different from the Christianism that was immediately popularized in the Roman Empire. Jesus’ original Christianism was probably pretty much an apocaliptic Jewish cult (as we can infer from the very scarce Roman sources from the time). The “institutionalized” Christianism we know today (with the Church and everything else) was Paul’s invention. The other, more complex institutions (the Church’s hierarchy), were born centuries after Jesus’ death, and were clearly a copy of the Roman State institutions.
In other words, even Catholicism/Orthodoxism is a completely different religion from the Jesus’ original cult. Jesus never stated his religion should have a church – that is another revisionism done by the apostles who wrote the New Testament. No need to say that the newer forms of Christianism (protestantism) are also completely different from Jesus’ original cult.

Posted by: vk | Dec 26 2019 13:58 utc | 92

For Christmas day, my mother (88) wanted to see the Richard Jewell movie. After the movie, I pointed out how his lawyer character kept telling him not to talk to anybody. And there is an internet video out there where a lawyer gives the same advice. It’s not that 100% of law enforcement is bad; it’s that you don’t know who you can trust and who will twist and use any statement that you make. Then I related about the PBS Newshour story and the White Helmets propaganda outfit. It’s all I can do to point out the media’s BS like the Kentucky gun range video being used by ABC. (We never got the results of their internal investigation on how this happened.)

Posted by: Curtis | Dec 26 2019 15:21 utc | 94

@vk 92
This coming from a man who knows that Christianity is a mere obstacle to their material and demonic dialectic of world governance.
You know nothing of Christ, and i will continue to pray for you, but refuse to sit idly by as you attempt to poison His most sacred waters.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 26 2019 15:45 utc | 96

@ Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Dec 26 2019 15:45 utc | 96
As I’ve said, I’m talking about the historical Jesus. The teological Jesus is an object for the religious people.
However, modern Christians should not feed themselves the illusion they are following the historical Jesus’ teachings. Jesus was, very likely, an apocalyptic Jewish prophet.
That Christianism was born as essentially a modified form of Judaism is no surprise: the same phenomenon happened with Islam, where Muhammad was essentially a Jewish prophet who adapted the religion to the class interests of the merchants of Mecca. It was only many centuries later that Islam gained the institutional form we can recognize today.
There is circumstancial evidence the original Christians really were an apocalyptic cult (inferrence from Roman sources, plus the pattern of fabrication of Jesus’ speeches in the New Testament). It only evolved to the State-like institutional machine when it begun to be assimilated by the Roman Empire upper classes.

Posted by: vk | Dec 26 2019 16:04 utc | 98

@ Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 26 2019 16:22 utc | 99
I’m not being pejorative. “Cult” is the scientifically precise name to designate many of the religions of Antiquity.
Everybody has the right to invent whatever narrative to sleep well at night. All that I’m saying is that today’s Christianism has nothing to do with the Christianism Jesus Christ himself taught in his time. Christianism evolved with time, according to the class interests of its cultists across the ages. The same is true for any other religion.
The fact that Christianism was essentially preached in written form plays against it in this case, since historians can dismantle their narrative with more ease than with the religions that are only oral. You get the highlights, you also expose more of your details and imperfections.
There are a lot of holes in the History of Christianism, but one thing is certain: if Jesus was reborn today, he certainly would not recognize the religion attributed to him.

Posted by: vk | Dec 26 2019 16:49 utc | 100