Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 22, 2019

Why The Hong Kong Riots Are Coming To An End

The U.S. sponsored riots in Hong Kong are mostly over. They were sustained much longer than we had expected.

The "marginal violence" campaign of the "pro-democratic" students has failed to win more support for them. Regular Hongkongers are increasingly willing to take a stand against further provocations:

Demonstrators gathered at about 12.30pm on a bridge outside Exchange Square, which houses Hong Kong’s stock exchange in the city’s financial heartland, in another round of lunchtime protests that have been staged most days over the past two weeks.

Scuffles broke out after a pro-police group of about 50 people showed up about an hour later, but police arrived soon after to clear the area.

During at least two altercations between some members of each group, an anti-government contingent yelled “go back to China” at their adversaries, and one of their number kicked a woman walking towards the smaller group.

Ten days ago the core of the black clad rioters began to paralyze Hong Kong's traffic during regular workdays. They ransacked nearly every metro stations and barricaded large thoroughfares and tunnels. Schools were closed, businesses and workers were severely harmed.

One 70 year old street cleaner was killed when he was hit by a stone thrown by the rioters against civilians who tried to remove a barricade. A 57 year old man was drenched with gasoline and set alight after he verbally disagreed with the rioter's ransacking of a metro station. A policeman was shot with an arrow.

The rioters occupied the Chinese University and the Polytechnic University (PolyU) which are next to large streets and the important Cross-Harbor-Tunnel. Using the universities as logistic bases and fortifications they managed to keep many roads closed throughout day and night. After some negotiations with the president of the Chinese University the rioters evacuated from there while leaving some 8,000 petrol bombs behind. They concentrated in the PolyU next to the Cross-Harbor-Tunnel.

That was a mistake.

Last Sunday the police surrounded the PolyU and let no one leave. Those who wanted out were either arrested or, when under 18, identified and handed to their parents. There were several violent battles when the rioters attempted to break through the police cordon but only a few escaped.


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After a few days most of those inside PolyU surrendered to the police.

Today there are still some 30 rioter holed up in a PolyU building. The police are waiting them out. They said that they had made more than a thousand arrests. The university is ransacked and there was significant battle damage. The rioters again left thousands of Molotov cocktails and other weapons behind.

The blockage of the city traffic and the increasing damage caused by rioter vandalism has alienated even those who earlier supported them. As the police now have most of the core rioters under arrest there is little chance that such violent protests will continue.

On Sunday there will be citywide district council elections in Hong Kong. China had pushed for the elections to go forward under all circumstances. Riot police will guard all polling stations.

Weeks ago the "pro-dem" candidates, who supported the rioters, were still poised to win more seats than they had held before the protests. But they now fear that the general public will punish them for the mayhem they have caused and will choose establishment candidates:

Chinese University political scientist Ivan Choy Chi-keung said while the turnout could set another record, the overall situation was more unpredictable than before.

“The pan-democrats could have won a landslide victory if the elections had been held in the summer, when the protests erupted,” Choy said. “But after the recent clashes at two universities, undecided voters may be worried about public order and be discouraged from voting.

He was referring to fiery battles protesters fought with police outside Chinese University on November 12, followed by more confrontations outside Polytechnic University last week.

“It will be difficult for the camp to win more than half of the seats, as some originally envisaged,” Choy said.

The Hong Kong government has conceded none of the protesters' "five demands". The only thing that the protesters have won is the passing of legislation by the U.S. Congress:

The House of Representatives on Wednesday followed the lead of the Senate in overwhelmingly approving two pieces of legislation: The Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, which requires the president to annually review the favourable trading status that the US gives to Hong Kong, threatening to revoke it and impose penalties against officials if freedoms are determined to have been quashed; and the Protect Hong Kong Act, which will block the sale of tear gas and other policing items.

The former, although largely symbolic, could alter Washington’s relationship with Hong Kong and Beijing.

US President Donald Trump has a straightforward choice on legislation passed on to him by the United States Congress supporting the protests that have engulfed Hong Kong – approve or veto. Coming amid tough bargaining on his trade war with China, he may be tempted to make his decision part of the negotiations.
...
But Beijing sees such measures as striking at the heart of Chinese sovereignty. Radical protesters could be spurred to greater violence. Unspecified countermeasures are promised should Trump give his approval.
...
But the trade war, violence and legislation have damaged business sentiment in Hong Kong. Approval or not, pessimism and uncertainty have already been deepened. There can be no winners.

Trump wants the trade deal with China and will therefore likely veto the bill:

Speaking on the “Fox & Friends” morning program, the president said that he was balancing competing priorities in the U.S.-China relationship.

“We have to stand with Hong Kong, but I’m also standing with President Xi [Jinping], he’s a friend of mine. He’s an incredible guy, but we have to stand … I’d like to see them work it out, okay?” the president said. “I stand with freedom, I stand with all of the things that I want to do, but we are also in the process of making one of the largest trade deals in history. And if we could do that, it would be great.”

A veto would only have a temporary impact as the law has passed the House and Senate by veto proof majorities.

The idea behind the protests and the rioters In Hong Kong was all along to provoke another Tian An Men incident. This has been quite obvious since the start of the protest. It now gets publicly acknowledged:

BBC Newsnight @BBCNewsnight - 11:00 UTC · Nov 19, 2019

“Some of the protesters seem to have an objective to provoke a military confrontation with China. They seem to want a Tiananmen Square outcome as success.”

Fmr Foreign Sec @Jeremy_Hunt says he is “concerned with the tactics” with some of #HongKong’s protesters

Had China moved troops to Hong Kong, or allowed more force to be used against the protesters, the U.S. would have used that to press its allies to put strong sanctions on China. The protesters' violence was designed to achieve that outcome. The plan was part of the larger U.S. strategy of decoupling from China.

The plan failed because China was too smart to give the U.S. what it wanted. Now it is Trump who is under pressure. He needs the trade deal with China because the current trade war is doing harm to the U.S. economy and endangers his reelection.

Which is probably the real reason why the protests have died down.

Posted by b on November 22, 2019 at 19:02 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Below is a Reuters link to a story that does not surprise me and don't expect it will be a shock to fellow barflies

China meddling allegations roil Taiwan election campaign

Given what happened/is happening in HK, is there any surprise that underhanded efforts will also be used/attempted in Taiwan?

I have written all along the the BS in HK is also part of the efforts to tilt the coming election in Taiwan. This is empire that is proud of its lying, cheating and stealing after all and they are losing control of the world narrative, slowly, day by day.

It pisses me off that many of my fellow Americans are oblivious to this international criminality while empire claims victim status on an ongoing basis against China and Russia.....ARGH!!! Plato's Cave Displays are very effectively being used by empire......

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 24 2019 6:09 utc | 101

bevin excusing Epstein ... again.

Bevin doesn't just make a distinction between pre- and post pubescent rape, he excuses the rapists ("guilty old men" taken advantage of by a "rich man") and admits his sympathy for them.

He then supports his twisted view with disinformation:

there is no more evidence of pedophilia on his part than there is of cannibalism ... As to the specific charges made against Epstein, they will never be proved ...

Epstein was/is a convicted criminal and registered sex offender. Dozens of women have come forward, possibly at great risk to themselves, to say that they were raped by him and/or trafficked by him and his gang.

But once it becomes accepted that a man called a pedophile can be killed or tortured with impunity ...

Epstein wasn't just "called a pedophile" he was convicted and was/is a registered sex offender that a multitude of women say raped them. And Epstein wasn't any ordinary rapist, he was a serial rapist of underage girls and promoter of rape on a large scale.

Other members of Epstein's crew - also accused of child rape and trafficking - are not being pursued by legal authorities. This simple fact shows that bevin's concern of a witch hunt for those who are mislabeled a "pedophile" is bullshit.

That Bevin doesn't even use the word "rape" shows that his sympathy for the victims is hollow.

"needy girls"

This is just blaming the victims.


IMO bevin's persistent excusing of the rapists is meant to short-circuit our outrage that Epstein's operation was conducted on behalf of a State. That State is likely the State of Israel as the key players are Jewish Zionists or linked to Jewish Zionists. That makes bevin a likely Hasbara troll.

We should not allow a state like Israel - already known to be a mafia state and abuser of human rights - to sponsor child rape on a large-scale with impunity. And we should not allow Hasbara trolls to slyly excuse Israel via misdirection.

Hasbara troll or child rapist sympathizer? Neither of these has any place at moa.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 24 2019 7:10 utc | 102

A.L. @100 noted "but that's democracy isn't it.

Democracy is "mob rule", or more accurately "herd rule", with the herd being notoriously easy to steer, remote control as it were, by the herdsman and their barking attack herd dogs in mass media. The herdsman just needs a handle on the members of the herd, with those handles usually being largely imaginary boogiemen and mysterious dark evils that are programmed into the population's minds from birth to trigger them below the conscious level. The dogs bark and the herd turns as one to where the herdsman wants it to go, but with the members of the herd believing that they demonstrated individual volition and the uniformity of their behavior as part of the herd being proof of the correctness of that herd's behavior.

"Communists" are one of the boogiemen programmed into the minds of the herd in Hong Kong, while "pedophiles" are a big one (alongside "communists") in the West. The fear of pedophiles has been instrumental in getting the herd to consent to having their Internet behavior monitored by the state. If you do not condemn the imaginary boogieman or if you question his existence, then you must be the imaginary boogieman, and thus remote control over the herd is reinforced.

This remote control mechanism is not only effective with stupid people, but even very intelligent people can unknowingly have a handle installed on their back where they cannot see it that is used to steer them, as we can see right here in this forum in the reaction to a very logical and rational post by bevin. Clearly he must be the boogieman himself since he is questioning the knee-jerk behavior of the herd.

This is a powerful tool of control which just happens to have a surprisingly significant bearing on events in Hong Kong, particularly at this very moment while the population there goes to the polls.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 24 2019 12:34 utc | 103

What’s happening in Iran has a lot of similarities with what is going on in Hong Kong

Professor Mohammad Marandi explains in this video 7:30 – 11:45 how violent dissident groups capitalized on the popular anger and confusion, and used it to wreak havoc. What is happening in Iran has similarities with what has been going on in Hong Kong.


Posted by: rolf | Nov 24 2019 18:23 utc | 104

Sorry, here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTpIJ9ekwkI

Posted by: rolf | Nov 24 2019 18:26 utc | 105

William Gruff @ 103:

I hardly think that Bevin's response @ 92 to what Jackrabbit says @ 88 is "logical" and "rational". Jackrabbit speaks of "young nubile women" but in the context of what he is referring to, he may have been speaking sarcastically. Perhaps Jackrabbit should have made this clear but then he is entitled to assume that his fellow MoA commenters have the intelligence and insight to know if he is speaking sarcastically or not, without having to explain everything he says. In light of what Jackrabbit later says @ 102, that comment @ 88 may have been bait for Bevin to take.

My objection is that in past MoA comments forums, Bevin has consistently used language in such a way as to steer discussion away from a larger context in which Jeffrey Epstein and his procurers (most of whom were women, apparently) targeted teenage girls - some of whom are alleged by reports to have been as young as 11 or 12 years of age - with offers of work or some other financial support to help the girls and their families. Most of these families were either poor or unstable in some way. By drawing people in arguments over whether Epstein's activities and sexual abuse of some of the girls adhere or do not adhere to a very narrow definition of paedophilia, the language employed ends up obscuring the seriousness of the crime or crimes Epstein and his procurers committed, to the extent almost of excusing them, portraying the people who had sex with the girls as also being unwilling victims, and even insinuating that the girls themselves were complicit in the crimes by being "needy".

That Epstein is dead may mean that we will not know the full extent of what he has done, as he may have known things that not even his procurers are aware of. He may have known people in influential positions in government, finance, the military, the entertainment industry, academia, international sport or other major activity in society who were involved in procuring girls or who have engaged in other criminal behaviours and actions. One can feel pity for Epstein that at the same time he was playing with other people's lives, he was a plaything of others but his wealth and his network of clients, and the feeling of invincibility or Teflon-like untouchability he may have derived from that level of wealth and influence, blinded him to his real status and role as a tool, and an easily disposable tool as it turned out.

I would also hardly call Bevin "logical" and "rational" in claiming that I favour "lynch mob demagoguery" simply because I challenged his argument on the seriousness of Epstein's crime / crimes. That claim is as low as the lynch mob demagoguery I'm supposedly guilty of preferring.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 24 2019 21:46 utc | 106

WHITE RACE --- DOES IT AGAIN
BC 500 --- Rise and fall of the Roman Empire
AD 1100 --- Middle-east slaughter by the Western Crusades and Dark Ages
AD 1500 --- Central America and South America slaughter by Spain
AD 1600 --- North America slaughter by England and France
AD 1650 --- African slave trade by white Western Europe
AD 1914 --- World War One and slaughter of Ottoman Empire by Western Europe
AD 1940 --- World War Two and second slaughter of the Middle-East by white race

For to prove the harm of it, to reach the ultimate conclusion of it and by intelligent design,
the white race was destined to be an intelligence dictatorship.

Posted by: John Ellis | Nov 24 2019 23:25 utc | 107

Jen @106

I never said "young nubile women". That was Bevin's focusing on the attractiveness of young women instead my pointing out the legal necessity to use very young women for blackmail purposes (for the blackmail to be effective there had to be no question that the 'marks' knew that the girl was underage).

My comment in full:

snake @72: This video seems to be a real plea for help.

She says: "I was trafficked for 17 years."

That's just not credible. Epstein's blackmailing operation needed very young women. He wouldn't have used any one of them for more than a few years.

!!

Also, I wasn't baiting bevin at all. I was simply responding to a comment asking about the video of a woman that claimed that she was raped and trafficked by Epstein.

My comment @102 stands on its own. It fully supports your view that bevin is deliberately attempting to create a hairball that shuts down discussion about Epstein. And I make that more explicit by suggesting the likelihood that he's a Hasbara troll.

Wm Gruff is off-base and I wonder if he's followed bevin's asinine commentary on this subject as well you and I have.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

One more thing.

I strongly suspect that Epstein was extracted, not killed. I've written of this possibility in several comments. But to repeat (briefly): if they wanted Epstein dead (because he might talk), then why not kill him BEFORE he is sent to a maximum security prison? And if the government is so serious about addressing the Epstein's criminality, then why have they allowed others to go free (esp. G. Maxwell). And lastly, if Epstein was really dead, why haven't they shown us conclusive proof? There was no DNA match despite Epstein being a registered sex offender - the only identification was by his brother (why not let victims see the body - they know it better than anyone).

FYI: Witney Webb has also changed her view to lean more toward extraction than killing.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 25 2019 0:14 utc | 108

Jackrabbit @ 108:

Thanks for your reply and please accept my apologies for misprinting or misinterpreting your comment @ 88.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 25 2019 0:52 utc | 109

"The plan failed because China was too smart to give the U.S. what it wanted. Now it is Trump who is under pressure. He needs the trade deal with China because the current trade war is doing harm to the U.S. economy and endangers his reelection.

Which is probably the real reason why the protests have died down."

People everywhere aspire to be free. The CCP imagines the HK protests are the work of foreign devils out to get them, the sterling communist vanguard. The US is no better in its assessment of the causes of the protests, as b here assumes the protests are dying down due to a change in US policy, spear headed by the fat prick in the WH, who fears for his re-election chances if the protests persist.

Well, here's some news: there is no democracy in the USA and it cannot therefore export it to HK. Whatever work of agitprop is being done by US regime change specialists does not constitute a spigot the manipulators can turn on or off. The US did not create the mass movement in HK and it does not control it.

But, of course, arrogant Americans drawing fat paychecks at the expense of US tax payers for creating chaos in other nations like to believe they create reality.

What is bringing these protests to an end is an election in which the pro-democracy protestors are doing very well as voter turnout is very high. This is why elections are essential as an antidote to chaos. The protests will end because the yearning for liberty has been expressed and the fear of CCP totalitarian control has been allayed. Arrogant US manipulators and arrogant CCP manipulators have little to do with this native human impulse.

Posted by: jadan | Nov 25 2019 2:21 utc | 110


No support? Care to comment b?

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/hong-kong-election-pro-democracy-candidates-surge-amid-record-turnout-protest

Posted by: CriticalThinkerJr | Nov 25 2019 4:15 utc | 111

@ CriticalThinkerJr who asked what b thinks of the HK polling results

I want to respond by saying that democracy in a city state run by oligarchs doesn't mean much. It will result in isolation and pleas to Western empire for subsistence support or the expensive "protection" offered by empire.

Democracy does not create jobs, housing or long term stability when profit is the underlying motivator. HK will shrivel up and die living this fake religion, IMO....especially given the price paid for it.....a self inflicted fatal blow to survival as a Western colony with little to offer but maybe slave wages in an expensive living environment.....unsustainable...the smart folk will leave for greener pastures.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2019 6:15 utc | 112

psychohistorian@112

"Democracy does not create jobs, housing or long term stability when profit is the underlying motivator."

A voice calling from the 18th Century!

Posted by: jadan | Nov 25 2019 12:55 utc | 113

@ jadan # 113

Your response is lacking a bit of depth of substance and understanding of history, IMO

Please articulate further

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2019 15:02 utc | 114

@102 jackrabbit... bevin is not a hasbara troll... your deductive powers are way off here.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 16:51 utc | 115

james @115: bevin is not a hasbara troll

Oh, so he's just sympathetic to people that rape children?

And his sympathies are so strong that he initiates another round of discussion on the topic despite previously being attacked for his twisted view.

Nothing to see here?

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 25 2019 17:36 utc | 116

China blames 'foreign forces'. Russian collusion, Chinese-style? There's one universal you can be assured of: When the going gets tough, governments of all types scapegoat other governments.

Unless NED/CIA is pulling the levers behind the voting booth curtain, today's HK vote strongly suggests the movement is more than simply an artificial imposition from outside entities eager to sow discord in China.

Are the usual Empire Agencies in there agitating and assisting the protesters? You bet. But is there a genuine roiling generational conflict underneath all the instigating? Yes, that too. You can't foment unrest in a vacuum. Beware the univocal narrative which is the hallmark of propaganda. Two things can be true at the same time.

Carrie Lam is disliked by 94% of HK youth. This is not NED propaganda. Why?

So I'm a 22 year old HK kid. Two Countries consolidate into One System in 2047 (in 28 years) when I'm 50. HK has 30-year mortgages just like in the US. Relatives pool money for the kids to put down 15% which the kid is expected to pay back after a couple of years via his appreciation. Great Ponzi scheme while it lasts. We all know how these things end. But that's another story. I use the mortgage example illustratively for the huge sense of anxiety that surely grips the young more than the old.

The kids are doing the math. What do I own in 28 years after toiling over a mortgage my entire working life? The punt to 2047 was classic kick the can down the road. The kids are realizing they're the cans.

Anyone who lays this electoral victory entirely at the feet of the CIA commits the worst kind of condescension towards the aspirations of the HK people.

This vote however is showing more, that the unrest instigated by the young people is seeping into the larger population. Shades of America's 60s movement and the French university students of the 60s?

The contagion has clearly spread beyond its prior demographics. Look at the overwhelming results of this election and the 72% participation rate. The 'handful of young malcontents and hooligans' narrative has been demolished.

This is not an apology for the CIA, arguably the most evil human institution ever devised. But we may have here a strange confluence of convergent interests. Could the CIA/NED be on the right side of history for once? Stranger things have happened.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3039306/hong-kong-elections-pan-democrats-celebrating-landslide-win?fbclid=IwAR1Q_qB8nabE8QsuzkSDXQrrCBLtR11jXBV6aLQ0IOzFcT7h1Z2sxCtPr44

Posted by: FSD | Nov 25 2019 18:05 utc | 117

@116 jackrabbit.. that is not a correct assessment either and you know that too.. not sure why you are doing this..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 18:29 utc | 118

Jen an JR's reaction to Bevin's comments seem somewhat OTT.

My understanding is that he is making the point that OTT reactions to sex allegations allows TPTB to railroad anyone accused of sexual impropriety, just by making the charge.

Julian Assange being the perfect example.

"My objection is that in past MoA comments forums, Bevin has consistently used language in such a way as to steer discussion away from a larger context in which Jeffrey Epstein and his procurers (most of whom were women, apparently) targeted teenage girls - some of whom are alleged by reports to have been as young as 11 or 12 years of age"
Posted by: Jen | Nov 24 2019 21:46 utc | 106

I'm not aware of some of the alleged victims being " as young as 11 or 12 years of age"

Could you please provide some sort of link to a reliable reputable source as evidence for this claim? Not trying to catch you out here, but would like to see this claim being backedup if possible, thanks in advance

JR himself casts doubt on the "trafficked for 17 yrs" claim.

Posted by: Realist | Nov 25 2019 19:35 utc | 119

Ps: OTT reactions to the Epstein scandal also help obscure any real investigation into who besides Epstein benefited. He certainly wasn't working alone, if anything he appears to have been a mere frontman, both as a procurer of young women and as an alleged hedgefund manager, for some much more powerful person or organisation.

Apparently no one on Wall St ever did any business with him, which simply isnt credible if his story of being a hedgefund manager were true.

OTT reactions to the sex aspect obscure both the blackmail aspect and the implausibility of his being a hedgefund manager

Posted by: Realist | Nov 25 2019 19:41 utc | 120

james @118

Please explain what a correct assessment of bevin's comments would be.

In your answer, please consider:

bevin @95:

I also have some sympathy for Epstein who ... was simply a rich man abusing his power ...

And bevin's view of the victims @92 and @95:

Young nubile women ... needy girls

And don't forget to include his prior comments that talk of sex between 13 and 14 year old children (note: one of the victims is said to have been only 12 years old) and men in their 40's and 50's as natural and only recently frowned upon.

bevin doesn't really care much that these young women were intimidated and trafficked/prostituted. His sympathy for them is hollow. Lip service. The "needy girls" were paid. And he really really wants us to know that the underlying crime - child rape - is no big deal - its just natural!

bevin's POV is essentially this: that Epstein didn't commit any real crime, he only took advantage of the laws of a too-prudish society that is over-protective of their children. Should people be free to prostitute their children? Should rich older men be free to abduct and rape them - with their lawyers claiming later that the girl gave her consent? Should we dress our daughters in burka's so that rich old men are not tempted?

This is the rabbit hole that bevin opens up for endless discussion.

Is bevin genuinely supportive of older men having sex with girls as soon nature has approved via menstruation or is he attempting to diffuse our anger at Epstein (nothing to see here!)?

I might believe the former if it wasn't that bevin tries so hard to focus us on state persecution of 'normal' people like Epstein while ignoring the likelihood of a much more apparent evil: the likelihood of state sponsorship of the blackmail operation.

Nothing more than a "rich man abusing his power?"/sarc

I look forward to your reply.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 25 2019 19:59 utc | 121

Would you Epstein BSers please take your crap to the Open Thread...thanks

@ Posted by: FSD | Nov 25 2019 18:05 utc | 117 who outed as 22 year old in HK

Thanks for your comment. I was active in the 60's....am 71 now and resonated with most of your frustrations.

I don't know how much you read MoA but am curious if you and your cohorts understand the public/private finance core to the social problem the world, including HK is having? This is a subject that I learned about in the 60's and was frustrated by how much ignorance existed then and still am frustrated by the ongoing brainwashed ignorance in all ages of folk today.

Is there any appreciation and understanding about the China public finance core structure?

Thanks again for sharing.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2019 20:13 utc | 122

JR deceptively quoting bevin:
"bevin @95:

I also have some sympathy for Epstein who ... was simply a rich man abusing his power ..."

Duplicitiously selective quotation there JR. Trying to obscure the meaning by use of "..." Is decidedly underhanded

Bevin actually said "I also have some sympathy for Epstein who seems to have been murdered while society looked the other way saying "served him right, he was a pedophile."

Which is actually a reasonable point of view, irrespective of whether or not you, Jen, or even I, agree with it.

Posted by: Realist | Nov 25 2019 20:13 utc | 123

Realist @119, @120

Your comments show a poor understanding of the issues raised by bevin's comments.

1) Although you quote Jen, you ignore the part where she notes that bevin has persistently excused sex between very young women and much older men. He only now attempts to rationalize this by bemoaning the possibility state persecution of people that are mis-labeled "pedophile".

2) You ignore bevin's use of disinformation. Epstein is a convicted sex offender and was evaluated to have the highest risk of repeat offense. bevin pretends that Epstein's guilt is unknown (and unknowable).

3) Epstein and Assange cases are very very different. This is just more disinformation as it's disingenuous to link them. Epstein is a convicted sex offender who was given a sweetheart deal. Assange was pursued vigorously on bogus charges.

4) The "pedophile" label for Epstein is not inaccurate. He is a convicted sex offender and the girls were legally children.

5) You don't seem to have followed the Epstein case very closely:

Could you please provide some sort of link to a reliable reputable source ...

Jeffrey Epstein flew to Virgin Islands with 11, 12-year-old girls in 2018, witness says

Jeffrey Epstein was sent three 12-year-old French girls as ‘birthday gift’


6) You've badly misread/misunderstood key parts of the discussion, as evidenced by this remark:
JR himself casts doubt on the "trafficked for 17 yrs" claim.

My comment wrt to the women that claimed she was "trafficked for 17 years" has no bearing on the discussion about bevin (look back and see for yourself).

7) bevin concerns about state power are belied by his lack of concern with the likelihood of state sponsorship of Epstein's blackmail gang.

See my prior comments for more.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 25 2019 20:43 utc | 124

Realist @123:

JR deceptively quoting bevin ... [who has expressed] a reasonable point of view

Well, lets explore this charge.

Is bevin correct in his belief that Epstein was "murdered while society looked the other way" because he was mislabeled a pedophile?

No. Epstein was a pedophile. He's a convicted sex offender that was evaluated to have the highest chance to repeat his crimes. And under the law the victims are children.

Furthermore, he wasn't just a pedophile, Epstein ran an operation that abducted (at least one), intimidated, and trafficked dozens of young women.

And he was only locked up because of the outrage over his actions, not because the government targeted him. So society wasn't looking the other way ... the government was looking for a way to sweep Epstein's crimes under the rug.

=

Is bevin's concern that other "innocents" might be treated this way justified?

No. bevin's presentation of Epstein as an innocent is disinformation.

And bevin's attempt to link Epstein and Assange sex charges is laughable. Epstein got a sweetheart deal while Assange was pursued vigorously over bogus allegations. Plus Epstein's associates (especially G. Maxwell) are not being pursued.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 25 2019 21:07 utc | 125

Realist @ 119, 120:

If you had read my comments @ 98 and 106, you would have seen that I refer to Epstein and his procurers, and to Epstein being the tool of others - and I even said that Epstein can perhaps be pitied, for maybe not realising that he was being used and he himself could be disposed of (just as he and his assistants used and disposed of teenage victims) by perhaps the very people and organisations funding his operations and whom he trusted and considered himself equal to - so I am fully aware of Epstein operating a blackmail scheme for the benefit of more powerful people and organisations. If anything, I am always harping on this larger context if someone dredges up Epstein's name in polite conversation.

I only said @ 106, that some of the teenage victims were alleged by reports (mainly in the MSM, and quoting UK newspaper The Daily Mail which has been highlighting a story that Jean Luc Brunel, head of a modelling agency, supplied 12-year-old French triplet girls to Epstein) to have been as young as 11 or 12 years of age. Don't try to twist what I said into claiming that I said that the victims were allegedly 11 or 12 years old.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 25 2019 21:55 utc | 126

jackrabbit - short response on the moa week in review section... this ot has taken up too much bandwidth..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 22:16 utc | 127

@jadan | Nov 25 2019 2:21 utc | 110

What is bringing these protests to an end is an election in which the pro-democracy protestors are doing very well as voter turnout is very high.

The Hong Kong rioters have been claiming all along that they were fighting for democracy -- and Hong Kong has an election (which was scheduled long before any protests). So what exactly are the protesters fighting for?

Posted by: Cyril | Nov 27 2019 6:05 utc | 128

@FSD | Nov 25 2019 18:05 utc | 117

Unless NED/CIA is pulling the levers behind the voting booth curtain, today's HK vote strongly suggests the movement is more than simply an artificial imposition from outside entities eager to sow discord in China.

We have photos of U.S. "diplomats" like Julie Eadeh meeting with protest leaders. Some of these leaders, such as Joshua Wong, have even participated in photo ops with top U.S. officians and politicians like Mike Pompeo and Marco Rubio. Then the U.S. Congress passes the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act.

What more evidence do you need of U.S. meddling in Hong Kong?

The protests may have deeper roots than U.S. opportunism, but there is no doubt that the U.S. is strongly implicated.

Posted by: Cyril | Nov 27 2019 6:21 utc | 129

re Jen | Nov 25 2019 21:55 utc | 126

The epstein story pushes buttons for most even halfway decent humans because it encapsulates everything that is so sick & perverted in our society.
On one level we have a disgusting human whose worst instincts for as much wealth as possible along with a perversion for having sex with children, then being encouraged and supported in those despicable activities by allegedly upright financially successful humans because his activities suit their purposes which are:

to on the other-hand, enable the butchery of an ancient, unique and discrete culture, merely because these rich f++kers believe that this genocide of a region's entire indigenous population will provide a beach-head from which they can plunder the natural resources of a continent and a half, despite the reality that utilizing those resources will condemn future generations of humans everywhere to a new dark age of misery, sickness, death and despair.

It probably is a bit much to put all of that on to one man and his sleazy handler Ghislaine Maxwell, however setting aside the blame of Epstein for all the long term destruction of the world, does not excuse him from the horrific 'one on one' strokes he and his off-sider pulled, the most egregious example being that of the 11 year old child he had abducted from outside a jersey pizzeria while she was waiting for her mother to grab the evening meal.
That girl was bullied tortured, then 'turned out' by Epstein & Maxwell eager to win the approval of an eventual US prez by presenting her to him as a 'gift' - "still a virgin", "of the correct age to be his youngest daughter".

For me the worst of this fascination over whether Epstein was murdered, topped himself or disappeared, is that it has succeeding in distracting everyone from the fact that Clinton, Trump, Ehud Barak, Tony Blair, 'Prince' Andrew and others who claim to be selfless leaders of humanity are in reality the most corrupt & ugly examples of so-called evil in human form.

I for one have no doubt that Trump plus a sizeable chunk of his most essential aides could be successfully impeached for the abuse of children, but the only reason we aren't witnessing that far more real impeachment is because of the unwritten law between both parts of the amerikan empire party. The agreement to stay off the subject of rape and child sexual exploitation because senior members of both sides are equally vulnerable.

Any man capable of raping a child is capable of any crime against humans which suits his needs. The old lags are correct, there is no crime lower than the abuse of a child.

Posted by: A User | Nov 27 2019 6:58 utc | 130

@128 "So what exactly are the protesters fighting for?"

Independence? It's completely impractical of course but you know how some young folk can be.

Posted by: dh | Nov 27 2019 14:08 utc | 131

@ psychohistorian | Nov 25 2019 20:13 utc | 122

Apologies for the confusion resulting from my 117 post. I am not a HK student and was merely attempting to imagine some of his or her motivations. It would indeed be edifying to hear someone of that group address your comments and questions. -FSD

Posted by: FSD | Nov 28 2019 12:47 utc | 132

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