Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 24, 2019

The Moon of Alabama Week In Review - OT 2019-69

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

Related:
As predicted in the piece above the riots are over and internet access has for most parts been restored. Another 'regime change' attempt has been defeated.
Iran’s Security Counter Attack to A Three Year Plan! / Behind the Iran’s Recent Riots, Part 1 - ISW News

Related:
RAY McGOVERN: The Pitfalls of a Pit Bull Russophobe - Consortium News
Two month ago we assessed that the Democrats' impeachment attempt is a huge mistake as it would help Trump to win the next election. Now evidence trickles in:
Trump approval ticks up amid impeachment battle: Gallup - The Hill
New Polling Suggests Democrats’ Impeachment Push Could Alienate Key Voters - Vanity Fair

Related:
The elections today went without a hitch and had a record turnout of 71% of all eligible voters.
Polls close in Hong Kong after record number of voters at district council elections - SCMP
Beyond parody:
Hong Kong university siege: two men trapped on campus for more than a week slam police for ‘depriving them of right to vote’ - SCMP
Will the pan-dems claim voting fraud if they do not get a majority?

Related:
Ukraine and Meddling in 2016 - Yes, it happened. - Yasha Levine

---
Other issues:

OPCW / Douma:

A third leak from the OPCW in form of an internal email is additional evidence that the OPCW report on the Douma incident was massively manipulated.
OPCW Douma Docs - Wikileak
"The author of the e-mail was a member of that team and claims the redacted preliminary version of the report, misrepresents the facts he and his colleagues discovered on the ground."
OPCW management accused of doctoring Syrian chemical weapons report - Stundin
New sexed-up dossier furore: Explosive leaked email claims that UN watchdog's report into alleged poison gas attack by Assad was doctored - so was it to justify British and American missile strikes on Syria?- Peter Hitchens, Daily Mail

737 MAX:

The Long-Forgotten Flight That Sent Boeing Off Course - Atlantic
Canadian air safety official urges removal of key software from Boeing 737 MAX - Seattle Times
Aerospace suppliers prepare for prolonged grounding of 737 MAX - Reuter

The most ridiculous 'liberal' headline ever:


bigger

Well-meaning sanctions?

Left I on the News points out that the State Department at times spelled out what sanctions are really supposed to do.

499. Memorandum From the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Mallory) to the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Rubottom)

Washington, April 6, 1960.
SUBJECT - The Decline and Fall of Castro
Salient considerations respecting the life of the present Government of Cuba are:
1. The majority of Cubans support Castro (the lowest estimate I have seen is 50 percent).
...
6. The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship.

If the above are accepted or cannot be successfully countered, it follows that every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba. If such a policy is adopted, it should be the result of a positive decision which would call forth a line of action which, while as adroit and inconspicuous as possible, makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government.
...
Would you wish to have such a proposal prepared for the Secretary?

(Rubottom initialed the “yes” space provided on the source text.)

Some seventy years later its is evident that sanctions are a blunt tool that only harms the people, not their governments.

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on November 24, 2019 at 17:06 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page | next page »

hey can't they blame russia for the opcw leaks?? why hasn't this been happening?? these cia-m 16 - 5 eyes are really slow on the uptake!

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 18:41 utc | 101

@98 I've visited Hong Kong numerous times pre 97 and since. There has been a steady increase in mainland infiltration over the years. At first it wasn't seen as a problem by local Hong Kongers but as property prices have risen it has become acute. This is due to mainlanders have been buying property and businesses and driving up prices.

I agree that HK protesters waving British and US flags is ridiculous but you seem to be proving my point about cultural differences being at the root of the unrest. I'm not saying they are right in thinking that way but I assure you many of them do.

This will probably sound racist but many Hong Kongers who have been schooled, for better or worse, in a British colonial system tend to see mainlanders as rude and unsophisticated. If you've ever stood in a queue in Hong Kong (Star Ferry, Peak Tram etc.) you may think they have a point.

Posted by: dh | Nov 25 2019 18:43 utc | 102

karlof1 @ 66 and Walter @ 69

I understand your anger and angst. We live in a cash economy; so, if you're cash-strapped, you can only do what you can.

Water, your own well (and a nice fat aquifer). Sewage...septic under your control. Shelter comes with taxes...minimize, and stay rural....

I appreciate the advice, mostly for the fact that it confirms my take on the situation. (Even if that advice is starkly survivalist.) Please don't think of me as some impoverished geezer. I have plenty of tech skills. I was delivering conference papers on my research at age 65; but once I lost that job, no one wants to hire a 70 year old techie. Bottom line: I will be fine until they destroy the pension funds and loot the savings accounts. But, for the first time, I feel that is going to happen within a few years, not in some distant future.

----

james @ 60
vk @ 76

Thanks for your agreement on the analogy.

----

A User @ 67

amerika is merely the first 'developed' nation to conclude that once humans become too old to earn the price of food & a roof, they must quietly die.

A very good and concise summary of the outcome of the "useless eaters" crowd.

whatever investments & funds we may still be fortunate enough to possess will be snatched by the arseholes in the coming bust

My sentiments exactly.
----

psychohistorian @ 64

I continue to also posit that salvation, if it comes, will be externally motivated by the advancement of China/Russia axis countries making structural change necessary to survive in the world without blowing it up.....globalism is a genie that can't be put back in the bottle...everything is interconnected and like climate change, has no borders....we are all passengers on spaceship Earth.

I agree, with one addition - Globalization is enabled by technology: instantaneous communication, massive databases, containerized shipping, air freight, etc. The technology can't be avoided. (The genie you refer to.) However, there are many ways to use the technology. The US has chosen anarcho/libertarianism - a sociopathic take on human beings. Other countries in the global economy have made other choices, e.g. China.

----

pretzelattack @ 68

i don't know when the chaos kicks off, but there is a nasty undercurrent now.

The weaponry and cadre necessary for the chaos is already in place. Just like the runup to WW1, there is a massive stack of armaments and (at least in the West) a bunch of jingoistic, self-righteous loons on a mission to MAGA. But no one knows what the spark is that set will set it off - some equivalent to the assassination of the Austrian Archduke.

Posted by: john brewster | Nov 25 2019 18:46 utc | 103

@102 dh.. i am sure that is all true regarding those perceptions and etc.. house prices have gone thru the roof here in the hongcouver area as well and certain stereotypes on these folks from hong kong are not all that pleasant either... but to think that having a change in the gov't is going to address the wider picture here of where we are in the capitalism cycle isn't going to change anything..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 18:48 utc | 104

@102 Sorry james.....I was responding to bevin before I saw your post. But I I've covered my thought on the matter. I still see it as more cultural clash than class struggle. Of course it could all come down to oligarchs also.....the lines between communism and capitalism get blurred after a few visits to China.

Posted by: dh | Nov 25 2019 18:51 utc | 105

#98

HK didn't protest in 1997 because they naively thought their economic superiority over the mainland would last forever (GDP was bigger than whole of Guangdong), and their arrogance never imagined that smugness will be completely wiped cleaned by the mainland in less than a single generation (GDP now less than one Shenzhen city).

Posted by: JW | Nov 25 2019 18:52 utc | 106

vk #51 - "The only chance Lam had of winning these elections would be if she followed the advice I posted here once: take the shotguns out of the armories and massacre the pro-USA protesters."

In the longer game, a massacre would have served an entirely counter-productive purpose. It appears the vote reflected the status quo in that the "pro-Beijing" bloc did not suffer a collapse in support but was overrun by a surge of new voters. The contradictions remain, and the so-called "pro-democracy" bloc don't really have a program.

The protest movement relied on high emotion, fuelled by imagery of victimhood and martyrdom, and managed to convince many to believe things which were not objectively true i.e. the police were wantonly violent or that 1C2S was under threat. We'll see if the marginal violence campaign continues, but the "government won't listen to us" argument is muted by the election results.

Posted by: jayc | Nov 25 2019 18:59 utc | 107

@ 96 Evelyn

Yes, I agree it is not a fringe issue. However, those who dissent in this issue are usually labeled and dismissed. It seems a tactic to associate any issue not conducive to the absolute rule of the establishment with that of the worst tendencies of the far right. That is: reactionary, antiscience, antiintellectual. In other words, "deplorable."

The linked story on zerohedge to naturalnews was posted today and it concerned facebook's censorship of content questioning vaccine safety, efficacy, and a forced mandate. Your link was not that one. But thank you for your interest. I would provide a link, but at work and out in the field I am having to use my flip phone during breaks to get my comments in. Yes, I use the t9 alphanumeric entry. Impressed?

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Nov 25 2019 19:22 utc | 108

@vk

First, I love the idea that China is socialist or communist in anything but name at this point. They're a state capitalist society. Whatever the conflict between HK and the mainland I find it very hard to accept framing it as a decline of capitalism when mainland China is itself capitalist.

The cultural divide between HK and China is huge. They don't even speak the same language. A lot of the divide does have to do with it being a British colony for 150 years, but it wasn't just foreign imports that changed it. Being a colonial insulted it from Beijing's linguistic imperialism that has caused other dialects to decline. There's a similar sense of uniqueness in Taiwan, where many people think of themselves as 'more Chinese than the [mainland] Chinese'.

Don't forget that 'Communist' China is an authoritarian (seemingly aiming for totalitarian) police state. I know many will scoff and roll their eyes at that, but that doesn't make it untrue. Whatever the many, many hypocrisies of the West, China doesn't even make a pretense of being free or just. I don't at all see why it's surprising that the people of a region that developed on a very different course from the mainland would be worried that their unique attributes are threatened by a government that uses literal reeducation camps to crack down on dissent in Xinjiang (and spare me the protest that that isn't happening, or 'isn't that bad'. A bunch of new leaks were just published; it really is that bad. I expect b will try and discredit or minimize them though).

@Walter

Ah yes, the racists are the real persecuted minority. Of course. Won't someone have pity on the poor bigots?

Good job elevating a right-wing cliche though; you're not content to say a 'racist' is just a person someone else doesn't want to be allowed to speak. No, we want to deny you rights at all! Oh no, you've seen through our dastardly plan!

Posted by: Merasmus | Nov 25 2019 19:30 utc | 109

@ Posted by: john brewster | Nov 25 2019 18:46 utc | 103 who outed himself as a techie

I have been one since 1969 and mostly in supply chain....ping me through my web site, please

@ Posted by: Merasmus | Nov 25 2019 19:30 utc | 109 who wrote
"
Don't forget that 'Communist' China is an authoritarian (seemingly aiming for totalitarian) police state.
"
Please share with us the comparison of the aggressive police state empire of the West private finance cult with China who has brought 500 million out of poverty since the 70's....thanks

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2019 19:43 utc | 110

@ Posted by: China is a U$ Puppet | Nov 25 2019 19:38 utc | 110 with the long screed about China being a colony of empire

Your comment reads like you were holding your breath on the 10th toke of some really bad shit.....breathe, think, study and write in paragraphs please and thank you

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2019 19:51 utc | 111

As MoA barflies know, my focus in on finance. I usually make a comment and sometimes include a link to a supporting article. But the following are 3 links from today's ZH that I think those interested in the future of finance should read....and I am not even providing Take Away quotes for them

It's Official: The United States Is Now A Banana Republic

"Financialization": A New Feature And Risk Of Monetary Policy

A Record-Breaking Dollar Bond Offering From China Could Be Imminent

@ Posted by: China is a U$ puppet | Nov 25 2019 20:16 utc | 113 who provided a link to Huffington Post in support of their opinion.....weak if not of negative value and I won't go there....sorry if that is where you get your "information".

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 25 2019 20:37 utc | 112

It is nice to see how the Syrian authorities take control of more and more new lands in the territory that until recently they could not even set foot on.

The infographics of the Russian Ministry of Defense is very characteristic. The maps clearly show how zones in the north of Syria are growing under the control of the Syrian government (pale orange color):

24 October - http://syria.mil.ru/files/morf/map_war_24_10.jpg

19 November - http://syria.mil.ru/files/morf/map_war_19_11.jpg

25 November - http://syria.mil.ru/files/morf/map_war_25_11.jpg

Posted by: alaff | Nov 25 2019 21:01 utc | 113

i liked the king lear name better myself..

@ dh.... thanks... all good! i am not how to define it, but for me the bigger pic is that it is one of a number of places that are going thru changes that are hard to know how to resolve or move forward on... we can't be the world policeman as i see it, although the west will continue to try... at present we have enough problems of our own...

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 21:28 utc | 114

@116--

The Chinese have published a series of White Papers that are completely at odds with neocon bigwigs and are one of the reasons why China is listed as the #2 enemy of the Outlaw US Empire, immediately after Russia. Perhaps spending some time reading a quality academic paper about the nature of Russia and China will help your clearly perplexed brain. Then I can provide several thousand more pages of research to help you with your migraine.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 25 2019 21:36 utc | 115

@ Posted by: dh | Nov 25 2019 18:43 utc | 102

I agree that HK protesters waving British and US flags is ridiculous but you seem to be proving my point about cultural differences being at the root of the unrest. I'm not saying they are right in thinking that way but I assure you many of them do.

This will probably sound racist but many Hong Kongers who have been schooled, for better or worse, in a British colonial system tend to see mainlanders as rude and unsophisticated. If you've ever stood in a queue in Hong Kong (Star Ferry, Peak Tram etc.) you may think they have a point.

I don't dispute movements like these happen. The problem is that you would have to then postulate a previous "cultural clash", i.e. the clash between the native Hongkongers and the British colonizers. Why was British colonisation successful in converting the then completely Han Chinese Hongkongers and the communist weren't -- so far -- successful in converting the anglicised Hongkongers?

Well, if cultural conversion was possible once, it must be possible again. That is, unless you postulate British culture is inherently superior to Chinese culture. But then, that would be another -- very complex, by the way -- scientific hypothesis that you would have to demonstrate.

--//--

@ Posted by: Merasmus | Nov 25 2019 19:30 utc | 109

Whatever floats your boat. If characterizing China as a "police State" makes you sleep better at night, then there's nothing I can do to stop you.

What I don't understand is: what is the scientific usefullness in classfying communsit China as a "police State"? What is the scientific definition of it?

Do you agree that, after the PATRIOT Act, the USA became a "police State"? If yes, would that make the USA "communist"? What would that make of Europe and Japan, then, those bastions of freedom, which are completely dominated by said "police State"?

--//--

@ Posted by: China is a U$ Puppet | Nov 25 2019 19:38 utc | 110

Of course you can go to JSTOR and find a obscure academic who state that China is capitalist.

In fact, you'll find many. The Austrians (far-right in the political spectrum in the field of Economics), for example, tell us China is the most liberal country of all. The Keynesians will tell you China is the paragon of State Capitalism. The neoclassics will tell whatever fits their agenda of the time (if they are working in the private sector, they will tell you that after Mao's death, the Chinese came back to their senses and surrendered and embraced capitalism; if they are working for the USG, they will tell you China is the last bastion of communism that must be destroyed).

Theory is like a mother's heart: it fits everything. You can create a narrative that fits your hidden agenda -- and you'll find an random academic who will fullfil any wish you have: that's what the Western academic market is for, after all.

But I, a Marxist, like science. And science must also combine theory and reality. Theory is also subordinate to reality, and if reality doesn't fit your theory, your theory is wrong.

And reality states today's China is socialist (not communist). I'm not repeating myself over why China is socialist (I've already posted it here many times before). All I'll left here is a simple affirmation: China can be considered as much socialist as the old Soviet Union and there's absolutely no scientific basis to not take this affirmation as true.

Posted by: vk | Nov 25 2019 21:43 utc | 116

Russian 'aggression' is a construct of propaganda. Red Ryder @ 12 <= maybe B would put a numbered list of such constructs into an article and ask for comments by number on each one of them..

Is there somewhere a catalogue of "disinformation campaigns conducted by Russian security services <==Fiona Hill refers to these services when she tells lies? <== AFAICT lying to congress has become a virture,, must be, super top notch persons at the highest positions of power in the USA lie.. so lying must be a virture.. ?

A long series of Why_ies from=>: Jackrabbit @ 6 <= if you continue to ask "why" you will be punished again, please apologize to the world for your questions, get back in line, follow orders even if you do not understand them, and die for causes presented to you, even if you do not understand them. Further outbursts w/n/b tolerated, Netanyohu might send a missleminder your way.

by: john brewster @ 27 <= in other words now is the time for a revolution not later?

karlof1 @ 30 <==IMO nothing the congress does matters anymoe.. they can pass worthless laws day after day and stack them end to end in the library of laws, but no one any longer gives a damn. congress has been completed puppeted out.. they are now part of the problem.. and Karlof1 at

Karolf1 @ 36 The forces oppressing the US citizenry have always been present but arose in a more solidarity manner during US Grant's terms in office which prompted the rise of the countervailing force known as the Populists after the debacle of the 1876 election and culminated with The Triumph of Conservatism as the Gilded Age was euphemized as the Progressive Era and the seeds of Neoliberalism were planted with the rise of the Financial Class of Oligarchs. <==yes, this is the best statement yet.. The constitution itself was a coup in 1789, and the fable that it afforded America a democracy, outside of the elected few, was false and mislead from the start but well believed propaganda made to be real by the educational system.. and the constitution has served the bankers and business men that installed it well.. but its time has come and gone.. now the Americans will be contained in a much more strict fashion..

Sasha at 37 &38

John Brewster @ 40 " its the MIC/nationalist crime family versus the CIA/globalist crime family; and neither care about me. Still, my probably Quixotic goal is to stop impeachment from becoming a standard political tool, wielded by intelligence agents instead of politicians. by: john brewster | Nov 24 2019 23:31 utc | 40" <== this is what is new, the mafias that run the government are engaged in a split of ideologies one wants a to dethrone the $ in favor of the Eastern money and the other wants to impose hell on anyone not paying their fair share to the godfather.
The constitution cut Americans out of participation in their government the very day the USA had its first meeting (1789). The very same British Aristocrats who ran colonial America, installed themselves as persons in charge when their coup by constitution over threw the government that defeated the British. They did this by putting Article VII in the constitution which allowed themselves to authenticate the coup .

karlof1 @ 41 they are all guilty of the same crimes. <== important that you call these crimes. Hitler never committed a crime, he changed the law to make his crimes legal.
karlof1 @ 43 e US polity was Imperialized/Colonized from its inception and has never gained its independence. not quite true,, during the years between 1776 and 1789, America had a working democracy.. ratification was the bullet that killed democracy.

financial matters @ 43 "if a bank makes a bad investment it can use depositors money to bail themselves out. Also the Fed looks to be setting up to bail out money market funds on derivative losses rather than getting them out of the derivative business in a more controlled manner."


IMO the whole economy [depenps] on the success of the Empire Jackrabbit @ 45 <==no sir, we have done nothing, the Xs at the USA and their corporations, banks and elected puppets did it.. Americans are bystander victims.


I am still concerned that a bunch of no counts, https://cryptome.org/2019/07/Pentagon-Russia.pdf can claim they should manage all facets of the USA to counter Russia, and that to do that they need continunous state of war.. ..

What can be done to fix the problem that in charge over America is a government, animated by actors that do not have America's well being at heart, a group of persons that do not represent the governed? My answer is first and foremost fix Article II, the election process and qualification to be in office.. Do this by a citizen initiated effort[which is not provided for in the constitution].. Develop an amendment .and get 1750000 Americans to sign it. Such an amendment would prevent any person with a citizenship in any other nation from holding a job, being elected to a position, or being a contractor or employed by a contractor to the USA and 2nd part of the amendment would make it an unpardonable major crime, [criminal offense] to spy on persons on the Internet or to deny, attempt to deny, sort, redirect or make invisible content placed on the Internet.

Posted by: snake | Nov 25 2019 21:56 utc | 117

Nemesiscalling @108

I found it.

Sign me: "Deplorable"

Posted by: Evelyn | Nov 25 2019 22:00 utc | 118

@ vk - re china as police state... presently cbc - the public canuck news agency, is running a series of articles on ''bad bad''' china.. here is one of them..'They can find out anything': Leaked documents show China's surveillance of Uighurs worldwide

"The documents are part of the China Cables, an investigation spearheaded by the Washington-based International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ), and were obtained from a confidential source within China.

The files have been verified by intelligence experts, translated and given to CBC News and other international media partners by the ICIJ in an effort to raise awareness of China's treatment of Uighurs."

it seems to me this feeds right into demonizing china on a regular basis.. the articles in cbc have been pretty non stop.. merasmus could be another example of how a particular slant on china is being adopted in a number of quarters... what i find interesting is there is no mention of the type of indoctrination the uighurs are being exposed to themselves via the more fanatical branch of whabbism thanks the funding from ksa-uae and etc. in all of this... i recall watching a video on this in the past 1-2 years which was examining this closely.. but there is no mention of it in the cbc articles or in any of the regular press releases from the western msm.. instead it is all portrayed as very much about just how bad and draconian china is... if people don't ask for a bigger picture of what is going on here, they will settle for less - and to me it looks like a full assault on the minds of people in the west to adopt the propaganda being fed regularly by the west on china..

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 22:10 utc | 119

well that messed up... try this link and ignore the links above as they say sorry - 404..

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-uighurs-canada-secret-documents-1.5369835

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 22:11 utc | 120

@ Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 22:11 utc | 123

This is a nothing burger. All those documents refer strictly to the Uighurs involved in terrorist attacks that killed dozens.

See this:

NYT’s “Leaked” Chinese Files Story Covers For Terrorism

Unless, of course, you are pro-terrorism.

Posted by: vk | Nov 25 2019 22:23 utc | 121

jackrabbit -

epstein...

there is nothing i like about this story and the lead character epstein appears as a first rate creep.. that said, he ought to be given a fair trail in all the accusations leveled at him and that never happened...

was he a pawn for the intel agencies - mossad-cia and etc, so as to blackmail a number of higher up players? probably... was he a sexually exploitative person of under age girls - probably, but he still needed to be brought to court and he wasn't... too many arrows point to his having too much info on others and that he had to die to bury that info.. that is my general overview on epstein... is he dead, or was he replaced with another dead body? who knows...

as for bevins comments - i read them as bevin standing up to the idea of mob rule where you lynch a person based on the mob thinking.. it is what the west has become known for with regard to saddam and gaddaffi in particular - no trail - just the execution part.. i don't doubt epstein was a shady character or much worse, but i think bevins thrust is innocent until proven guilty or else we descend into a world where the rule of law is mob rule, where a person is tried in the court of public opinion and nothing else.. for that, i agree with bevin....

and for the record, i think you are focused on bevin in a very negative way when you could be more constructive in your comments and let go of similarly trying bevin here in the court of public opinion MOA comments section.. if bevin is guilty of any of the charges you make on him, his karma will catch up with him soon enough... i just don't see it and am not commenting any further on it either... cheers james

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 22:25 utc | 122

@124 vk... i concur, but the western msm is serving up regular nothing burgers on china in a way that wants to project a very bad image of china absent the facts.. thanks for your comment here...

Posted by: james | Nov 25 2019 22:27 utc | 123

Grieved @49--

Thanks for your reply and your choice of excerpts! I discovered where Ms. Chung writes most times, Rising Tides Foundation, and left a comment that I hope will elicit a reply. I think we have enough to go on now when we add yet another Hudson lecture to our list of evidence. If you find the time to read Zuesse's essay at The Saker I linked to, I'd welcome your thoughts.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 25 2019 22:40 utc | 124

From Peter Lee's (Chinahand) twitter. A must watch (video):

国防大学战略教研部教授说了,1997年就已经认定香港是全中国最坏的地方,比台湾还坏。

Posted by: vk | Nov 25 2019 22:42 utc | 125

I see much discussion about what kind of -ism describes the Chinese system. Personally, I can't eat -isms or burn them for heat. I'd like to know how is life for regular Chinese workers. Is every resident guaranteed access to the necessities of life? Do pensioners live in fear of hunger and cold and being forced to live under a bridge? Does everyone get medical care and education regardless of bank account size?

In Uncle Sam Land, the answer to each of those questions is a very loud NO. And I can testify to that from numerous personal hard knocks. Conditions in Canada and UK appear to be slightly better, maybe. As for the rest of the world, there is so much propaganda and misinformation swirling about that trustworthy evidence is nearly impossible to separate from the noise.

I have no interest in judging or condemning the Chinese system or any other place I don't live as that is above my paygrade. Problems in China are up to the Chinese to solve. But I am interested to know: how are people at the bottom of the hierarchy, the "useless eaters", treated by society? Do they get respect or get kicked to the curb?

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Nov 25 2019 22:56 utc | 126

snake @120--

Thanks for your feedback! IMO, Williams is saying that even during the period governed by the Articles that the mindset of a continent spanning imperial framework of mind was always present and thus made that era one subjected to Empire as a way of Life. IMO, that work by Williams is essential and if not in your local library can be found used under $5. To a high degree, the US polity captured and sequestered itself, something few realize.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 25 2019 22:58 utc | 127

james @125

he ought to be given a fair trail

Instead Epstein weaseled out of a trial with a sweetheart deal. That deal denied justice to the victims (not Epstein).

=
pawn for the intel agencies?

This is a very sympathetic view. Doesn't it make much more sense that he was a willing agent?

Epstein was very wealthy. He CHOSE to do what he did. He CHOSE to work with/for whomever he worked for.

Appealing for sympathy for Epstein while denying that he did anything wrong is repulsive.

=
was he a sexually exploitative person of under age girls

Was he? james, he was DEFINITELY WAS. He was convicted for sex crimes and was a registered sex offender with an evaluation that he posed the highest risk of repeating his crimes.

=
but he still needed to be brought to court and he wasn't

WRONG! He WAS brought to court - but he got a sweetheart plea deal that gave him the lightest possible sentence.

The NY action was an attempt to rectify that - but the victims were AGAIN denied justice.

And we don't even KNOW that he's dead because of the secrecy around his body. Epstein was identified by his brother instead of by dna (as a registered sex offender, they would have his dna).

=
i think bevins thrust is innocent until proven guilty

bevin is pushing disinformation when he pretends that Epstein is an "innocent".

Epstein is a convicted sex offender that got a sweetheart deal. He was formally evaluated and found to be at highest risk of relapse/repeat offense.

But Epstein was much more than a "pedophile". He is alleged to have abducted, intimidated, and trafficked dozens of women.

Note: bevin also tries to make an analogy with Assange but that is also disinformation. Epstein was/is a pedophile (his victims are legally children) that was given lenient treatment while Assange was pursued vigorously over bogus charges.

=
i think you are focused on bevin in a very negative way when you could be more constructive in your comments and let go of similarly trying bevin here in the court of public opinion

I think you are mistaken here because you don't seem to be aware of bevin's disinformation. You also fail to take note of bevin persistent arguing in favor of sex between very young women and much older men.

Does "focused on bevin in a negative way" refer to my belief that bevin is pushing a Hasbara line to protect Israel? It's the best explanation I can think of for why bevin persists in his twisted views on child sex and now provides disinformation to confuse people like you.

=
am not commenting any further

I think that would be a good thing because you are clearly ill-informed and possibly biased. I know that you like bevin's commentary at moa but why is it that someone that says intelligent well-informed things about so much pushes disinformation about Epstein?

!!

@all james is part of a conversation at the end of the Hong Kong riots thread. If interested, you can see more there.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 25 2019 23:18 utc | 128

vk @128--

Awhile ago, I questioned where chinahand got the idea that the current HK issue was Deng's fault. IMO, PRC has no grounds to worry over HK or Taiwan as time will find them both within the PRC due to PRC's continual climb and the opposite fall of the Outlaw US Empire. Trump wants to extract greater amounts of tribute from both RoK and Japan neither nations's citizenry will abide, the result being further indications that the Empire's leaving, which is the best for the region and all its people.

Trailer Trash @129--

The PRC aims to have eliminated poverty by 2030 and by 2050 achieved a "moderately successful society" where all are cared for. The key test will be for China's cultural values to withstand rising affluency. An interesting point to examine is why Jack Ma retired and Jeff Bezos continues when he doesn't need to whatsoever.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 25 2019 23:24 utc | 129

That New York Times' headline for Nicholas Kristof's article is a hilarious example of Orwellian American values in general.

The more crimes against humanity that America or its (sic) democratic allies like Britain or Canada commit, they more they cling to their delusions that their Anglo-American Empire is a champion of freedom, democracy, and All That Is Good And True In The World--albeit one that just so happens to occasionally make a few mistakes and destroy multiple nation states around the world.

Here's some more suggested headlines for the NY Times and the rest of the Anglo-controlled "Free Press" to consider publishing:

"Iraq's people are dying. Are we responsible? Our well-meaning sociocidal war may be murdering the wrong people."

"Syria's people are dying. Are we responsible? Our well-meaning sponsorship of jihadist terrorism may be head-chopping the wrong people."

"Afghanistan's people are dying. Are we responsible? Our well-meaning colonial war of occupation may be slaughtering the wrong wedding parties and pine nut farmers."

"Libya's people are dying and being enslaved. Are we responsible? Our well-meaning humanitarian bombing may have forced the wrong people into open-air slave markets."

"Bolivia's people are being repressed and killed. Are we responsible? Our well-meaning military coup against that nation may be ethnically cleansing the wrong indigenous people."

Remember, everyone: No matter how many nations that America or its allies bomb, regime change, invade, balkanize, exploit, or colonize, the Anglo-American axis is still the Moral Judge, Jury, and Executioner for all of humanity--whether humanity likes it or not!

America is truly God's Chosen Empire and People!

Posted by: AK74 | Nov 25 2019 23:24 utc | 130

@vk

I'm not going to play on your terms. I already said I don't think China is communist in anything but name. So asking me if I think the US, if it's a police state, would qualify as communist, amounts to gibberish.

And for the record, no, the US is not a police state. It's well on its way to being one, and certainly all the elements are propositioned that at the flip of a switch such a state could be imposed beyond all doubt. But freedom of speech and assembly still exist, the government does not run reeducation camps, the country is not walled often behind an internet barrier, and there is no formal social credit system being imposed. I don't like the constant NSA spying, the PATRIOT Act, or Section 1021(b) of the NDAA anymore than I imagine you do. But all of those together still are a far cry from what the Chinese government both can and regularly does do.

Posted by: Merasmus | Nov 25 2019 23:50 utc | 131

@119

I'm certainly not postulating that British culture is inherently superior to Chinese culture. Are you kidding? Nobody talks like that anymore. But the British definitely had the edge in gunboat diplomacy in 1842. That's when they acquired Hong Kong after the First Opium War. Maybe the locals preferred working for the East India Company than for the Qing Emperor. Lots of work for anyone who owned a boat ferrying goods to and fro. More people heard about it and Hong Kong grew fast.

Cantonese people are far from stupid and very entrepreneurial so cultural conversion was probably quite rapid. Since 1997 they have been obliged to deal with the mainland culture. It's a difficult adjustment to make.


Posted by: dh | Nov 26 2019 0:05 utc | 132

James @ 125:

I have to say that Bevin has accused me of having a "lynch mob demagoguery" mindset when I have criticised his remarks that (as Jackrabbit also says) portray Epstein, together with his procurers including Ghislaine Maxwell, as exploiting both teenage girls (whether underaged or past the age of consent) and the men (and even some women), whom Bevin has even referred to as "frustrated" and "guilt ridden", who were blackmailed in the sex rings.

I have always tried to emphasise the wider context in which Epstein's schemes operated. The teenage victims were lured into his schemes by Maxwell and her fellow procurers (note that these procurers were nearly always women, with the exception of course of Jean Luc Brunel, the model agency owner who launched the careers of Jerry Hall and Christy Turlington) who targeted them because they came from poor or dysfunctional families. The girls needed money to help with their education or to help their families. That is one aspect of the context which Bevin has ignored. I have also pointed out that Epstein operated his schemes for the benefit of other people and organisations, without actually naming them (though you will not be surprised that they turn out to be The Usual Suspects).

My main beef (and Jackrabbit's as well) is that whenever the subject of Jeffrey Epstein happens to turn up on MoA comments forums, the conversation ends up being steered in a direction that attempts to mitigate or excuse the participation of people in what is a sex trafficking operation in a scheme that serves the interests of the people and organisations Epstein worked for and who funded his scheme and his other business interests, and who ultimately determine (if they haven't done so already) what his fate will be once he becomes a liability to them.

References to past customs in other societies in which young girls were married off to men old enough to be their grandfathers or great-grandfathers are not relevant. We have no way of knowing what the individuals and families involved in such arrangements actually believed as opposed to what their outward acceptance of such customs and traditions might have been; and in most such arrangements, the motive was to keep property and other material wealth within families or clans. Comparing Epstein to Julian Assange (accused of bogus rape charges) or even to Roman Polanski (whose case in 1978 was presided over by a corrupt judge) further muddies a proper discussion of Epstein's activities and their context.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 26 2019 0:12 utc | 133

131 jk.. thanks.. i might be ill informed, but i don't believe i am biased, lol... cheers james

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2019 0:16 utc | 134

jk - jack rabbit..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2019 0:16 utc | 135

james

For the record, I don't think you're biased in terms of your opinions or how you form those opinions. I think you want to form sound opinions.

I think your bias is that you think bevin has provided good commentary in the past so your inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2019 0:38 utc | 136

Merasmus@109 You use the term 'state capitalism" how would you define it? Do you use the Cliff/Kidron definitions?

@131
It is not true that I either defend or attack sexual relations between young women and old men. I simply point out that they have long been accepted in most societies and for thousands of years. Though it is true that in many places 'chivaries' or their equivalents signify popular displeasure in many instances. I am also at pains to make it clear that such relationships do not fall under the designation of pedophilic relationships. These are well defined by clinicians.

To suggest that I am Hasbara because I refuse to lower myself to the level of those, like JR, baying, at a safe distance, for blood and apologising for Epstein's murder (bearing in mind that 'suicide' in such conditions would amount to murder by negligence). To make such a suggestion is to invite readers here to decide for themselves. I can only suppose that my many comments, almost uniformly opposed to Hasbara positions, is all part of the famous 'kayfabe' that he entertains himself with.

I'm not going to respond again to Jackrabbit who I believe to be a troll disguising his opposition to any socialist reforms as cynicism. This is exemplified in his continually characterising Sanders, a man with more than five decades of fairly consistent reformist political activity, as an agent of reaction a "sheepdog" working for the DNC, which of course also employs Trump etc.

As to his views on the Epstein matter it is simply malicious to say that Epstein was a pedophile because he seduced and exploited persons "legally" designated as children.
That is not what a pedophile is. And JR knows it. He is so obsessed with the opportunity of discrediting me that he insults everyone here by misrepresenting my position on the matter.
I am flattered to have got the attention of this industrious troll, but the matter is not one worth pursuing. And it is never worth pursuing an argument with someone who is, quite simply, dishonest and probably not entirely sane.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 26 2019 0:39 utc | 137

DH @ 135:

"... Maybe the locals preferred working for the East India Company than for the Qing Emperor ..."

The Cantonese people at the time (1840s) would have seen no difference between working for the British and working for the Qing Emperor because the Qing dynasty was just as foreign / non-Chinese as the British were.

In those days also, parts of Guangdong province were mountainous and there was not enough land (or enough other activity) to keep people, especially young men, usefully employed. So it became the usual practice for men to move to other places to find work. Hong Kong was a convenient transit point for such migrants who then went (or were sent) to North America and Australia to mine for gold and/or work on railway-building projects. The area of Guangdong province (where my parents came from) was a major source of emigrants to North America and other parts of the English-speaking world: the Taishanese language spoken in that province was actually the main Chinese language spoken in the North America and in some other parts of the Anglosphere (Australia, New Zealand) by diaspora Chinese communities up to the 1970s, after which Standard Cantonese and then Standard Mandarin gradually took over.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 26 2019 0:40 utc | 138

@140 "The Cantonese people at the time (1840s) would have seen no difference between working for the British and working for the Qing Emperor because the Qing dynasty was just as foreign / non-Chinese as the British were."

Very true Jen. Hong Kong in the 1840s represented opportunity for a lot of people. I doubt if any of them spent much time discussing isms.

Nevertheless the British left a cultural impression on the place and we're seeing the repercussions today.

Posted by: dh | Nov 26 2019 0:48 utc | 139

@ Posted by: Merasmus | Nov 25 2019 23:50 utc | 134

China also has freedom of speech and assembly. Literally nobody goes to jail or killed in China because of their ideology.

I've heard the Winnie the Pooh story, but it is false: Winnie the Pooh was censored in China, but a specific meme which circulated on the internet which offended Xi Jinping as a person/individual that happened to feature Winnie the Pooh. Western media quickly augmented the story to another level.

And there's no cyber wall in China. Google search engine is banned for purely commercial and national security reasons. Commercial reasons because China has the largest internet consumer market in the world, so the Chinese government considers this a public resource. National security because, by now, everybody knows about Google's shadow business with the USG.

Even then, you have to face the fact that access to Google doesn't equal being walled from the internet. Google is a private company, not some kind of UN organisation.

The USA doesn't have reeducation camps because it doesn't need them. If they needed them, they would have them (e.g. the concentration camps for American citizens of Japanese descent during WWII). Today, the USA also has de facto concentration camps for Central Americans denied visas (two children are already comfirmed dead).

How do you know the USA already doesn't enforce the PATRIOT Act in its entirety? Just because you and your friends and family weren't caught it doesn't mean it isn't enforced. And, even if the USG hasn't enforced it yet it doesn't mean it won't be able to when it wants -- but the piece of legislation is already there.

And there's no true freedom of speech in liberal democracies. There is political censorship as much as in the socialist countries. The difference is that, in the liberal democracies, censorship over speech happens through the ideology of "politically correct culture" ("PC Culture"), also known today as "cancel culture". The key here is that the people from liberal democracies "talk themselves out of"; they censor themselves afraid of the consequences. Censorship in liberal democracies happen through peer pressure, not direct State intervention. But peer pressure in liberal democracies is a fabrication of the State, which acts indirectly through manufacture of "public opinion" -- this is where the MSM enters into play.

I remember the episode of that football player, Colin Kaepernick if I'm not mistaken. The guy simply kneeled when the American Anthem was played before football games. The mob rule was quickly enforced, with POTUS Donald Trump himself condemning him publicly. He had his career destroyed, his name blacklisted among the clubs of the football league of the USA. This was not simply "bullying": the man paid materially, by literally losing his career, his life, because of a symbol (the USA Anthem). And all that happened not because his employer wanted to, but because the very people of the USA wanted to. Here we have, a man losing his freedom under thunderous applause from the People itself.

Posted by: vk | Nov 26 2019 0:50 utc | 140

Thanks very much, Evelyn at 87. I noticed that was the only one that came up in my search, and perhaps I was convoluting that (if it is the only one) with Ahmedinijad's letter to George Bush Jr. I had remembered Putin specifically noting that the founders of the US had more concern for the US population and its standing in world affairs than current leadership. Might be just wooly headed me, though, as I could not find anything along those lines. I do think, however that US policies when the UN was being constructed were definitely more in line with what that represents,as a world directed institution.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 26 2019 1:14 utc | 141

Some time ago I was told that by some link to a speech by Xi which I had quoted from that he had exaggerated the length of Chin'a civilization by saying 5000 years.

That may be precisely true but 4000+ years of China civilization is proven by the link below that shows that China had a celestial calendar based on the sun's movement between columns of stone 4000 or so years ago.

https://risingtidefoundation.net/2019/09/02/study-of-the-heavens-a-history-of-chinese-astronomy/

I encourage that person and other barflies to read the above link and others of educational value at the linked web site.

I had only read before somewhere about how the Chinese had observed and documented the Crab Nebulae supernova explosion in 1054 that was bright in the day and night sky for 20 -30 day but is not mentioned in European history because if conflicted with religious myth of the day and was therefore expunged from history....talk about closed minds....sigh.....must be the same mindset that burnt the witches that had plant medicine knowledge and are currently keep the masses thinking that the cult that owns global private finance are doing God's work.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2019 1:24 utc | 142

@142 vk

Better check your sources on the Kapernik thing. He was washed up by the time he decided to "take a stand" and kneel.

After he gained notoriety and front-page press, Nike endorsed him paying him a substantial dollar amount in a marketting campaign that was in essence grandstanding claptrap from a company that employs globalist and exploitative labor (read: slave labor) and gambled on a dicey image-boosting gambit that did not pay off.

And that's not even the best part. Kapernik claimed that NFL owners conspired against him and cost him money. He sued the owners association, and for some ungodly reason, he was paid handsomely (again...30+ million) to just go away. Oh boo hoo for ol'Kapernik who sunk his own ship and who was blacklisted for a good reason (and within their right as owners in the private sector) to which the owners unfortunately yielded to his crybaby lawsuit.

And then...the absolute cherry on top is that he wants back in the league and has petitioned owners and teams! Kap has seen life outside the plantation and he wants back in! (/sarc)

Hasn't he gotten enough money from exploiting race relations in this country and maximizing this to his advantage, thereby reinforcing mistrust and divisiveness in this country?

If you didn't know about this subject or if you live away from the U.S., I completely get your ignorance. B demonstrates this sometimes too. We underestimate cultural and national differences and we can't afford the time to thumb through a foreign land's press papers to get the real story.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 26 2019 1:31 utc | 143

Pretzelattack @ 68

“i take cold comfort so to speak that i will likely not live to see climate change really kick into high gear”

I love the potential irony of that statement, intended or not.


Librul @85

“. . .John Brennan, etal, are feeling the heat with the imminent release of John Durham's investigation and IG Horowitz's report.”

See 56 on this thread

Posted by: pogohere | Nov 26 2019 1:43 utc | 144

Many old time barflies know that I was raised Catholic and went through 12 year of formal education in the church including 4 years with the Jesuits.

It is with that context that I question fellow barflies focus on and exude much textual white noise over the Epstein crimes but ignore the centuries of monotheistic sexual abuse as evidenced by this recent link from the reticent BBC

Argentina: Catholic priests jailed for abusing deaf children

A sense of perspective in comment here would be appreciated

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2019 1:52 utc | 145

@138 jr.. thanks... i often agree with bevins articulate posts - not necessarily 100%, but usually a high ratio...

@146 pogohere... i see i missed your post on the previous thread... sorry about that! i liked your comment - "I see bevies of coincidences on the horizon." and i agree pretzelattacks line is a good one for the occasion..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2019 1:58 utc | 146

Some time ago I was told that by some link to a speech by Xi which I had quoted from that he had exaggerated the length of Chin'a civilization by saying 5000 years.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2019 1:24 utc | 144

No, you were right. Chinese civilisation is knocking on 5000 years, i.e. towards 3000BC. China as a civilisation is not younger than the Middle East, it all started at about the same time. Wiki gives the first kings round 2850BC. But it is somewhat mythological. The archaeological remains are not well preserved as in the Near East, much being built of wood.

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 26 2019 2:10 utc | 147

By the time China became a republic, it was no longer governed by non-Chinese. Sun Yatsen was a Cantonese, who spoke the same language as in Hong Kong.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 26 2019 2:13 utc | 148

@all

bevin's silence about providing the false impression that Epstein was an innocent victim speaks volumes. Sadly, both Realist and james fell for that disinformation.

In fact, the real victims have been denied justice twice: first because Epstein was granted a sweetheart plea deal that was arranged without their knowledge and consent and then by Epstein's escape from prison via death or extraction (we have no conclusive evidence that he's dead despite the fact that it would've been easy to provide such info if he were indeed dead).

Now bevin wants to pretend that I'm the problem. But Jen has also noticed his persistent defense of much older men having sex with very young women (I think this episode is now the third go-around with you in the last two months) and also surmised that it's meant derail the conversation about Epstein's crimes.

@106: Bevin has consistently used language in such a way as to steer discussion away from a larger context in which Jeffrey Epstein and his procurers (most of whom were women, apparently) targeted teenage girls ... drawing people in[to] arguments over whether Epstein's activities and sexual abuse of some of the girls adhere or do not adhere to a very narrow definition of paedophilia, the language employed ends up obscuring the seriousness of the crime or crimes Epstein and his procurers committed, to the extent almost of excusing them, portraying the people who had sex with the girls as also being unwilling victims, and even insinuating that the girls themselves were complicit in the crimes by being "needy".

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2019 2:16 utc | 149

king liar 113

Hear what your mentor says,,,...

'Brzezinski's goal is confrontation with the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, the main world center for resistance to US-UK global domination.


Anti-war activists are still fixated on Iran, but not Brzezinski is not - his target is China, TWENTY times bigger than Iran, with ICBMs ready to launch, followed by Russia, the world's biggest nuclear power. Such confused activists need to focus on stopping the next war - the final global showdown with Pakistan, China, and Russia.'

https://rense.com/general81/abig.htm

Posted by: denk | Nov 26 2019 2:16 utc | 150

The current system in China is national socialist, and it provides the same advantages to its population that German National Socialism provided to its. However, unlike the German variety, Chinese national socialism does not rest on deficit spending for the military sector, which eventually obliged the German Nazi government to go to war.

Posted by: lysias | Nov 26 2019 2:22 utc | 151

Merasmus 134

*But freedom of speech and assembly still exist,*

You must be under some rocks these days...
Google, fb, twitter, youtube etc etc all scrubbing dissents big time.


*the government does not run reeducation camps*

You dont have to..

Torture gulags in Cuba and Diego Garcia,

Extra judicial executions on 'terrorist suspects', anywhere on earth.

*, the country is not walled often behind an internet barrier,*

China needs a wall to keep out the flies,... Google, fb, twitter,
MSM presstitutes, you can keep it for your own enjoyment,


* and there is no formal social credit system being imposed*

MIne, someone is parroting every fukus agitprop verboten !
Whats wrong with rewarding good social behaviour and discouraging anti social misfits .

*. I don't like the constant NSA spying, the PATRIOT Act, or Section 1021(b) of the NDAA anymore than I imagine you do. But all of those together still are a far cry from what the Chinese government both can and regularly does do.*

Really ?
Ever heard of the five eyes, aka [[[five liars]]],
Ask Mdm Merkel.

Hmm,,.
The [[[five liars]]] agents are out in force...hehehhe

Posted by: denk | Nov 26 2019 2:24 utc | 152

127 Cont'd--

Distilled to its essence:

"HUDSON: Here’s what happened. Marx traumatized classical economics by taking the concepts of Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill and others, and pushing them to their logical conclusion. Progressive capitalist advocates – Ricardian socialists such as John Stuart Mill – wanted to tax away the land or nationalize it. Marx wanted governments to take over heavy industry and build infrastructure to provide low-cost and ultimately free basic services. This was traumatizing the landlord class and the One Percent. And they fought back. They wanted to make everything part of “the market,” which functioned on credit supplied by them and paid rent to them.

"None of the classical economists imagined how the feudal interests – these great vested interests that had all the land and money – actually would fight back and succeed. They thought that the future was going to belong to capital and labor. But by the late 19th century, certainly in America, people like John Bates Clark came out with a completely different theory, rejecting the classical economics of Adam Smith, the Physiocrats and John Stuart Mill."

As the global dialogue of political-economy continues to widen, it seems clear that the Junk Economics put into place by the John Bates Clarks must be vilified and put into an incinerator and the Classical, Marxian and their related schools of thought rehabilitated and put into overt practice as the Chinese certainly are doing. And we are also given the exact lesson that must be imparted to one and all, which is what Occupy Wall Street attempted--out its parasitic nature:

"That’s basically what Wall Street has done. It depicts itself as part of the economy. Not as a wrapping around it, not as external to it, but actually the part that’s helping the body grow, and that actually is responsible for most of the growth. But in fact it’s the parasite that is taking over the growth.

"The result is an inversion of classical economics. It turns Adam Smith upside down. It says what the classical economists said was unproductive – parasitism – actually is the real economy. And that the parasites are labor and industry that get in the way of what the parasite wants – which is to reproduce itself, not help the host, that is, labor and capital."

I don't think Hudson, myself, or anyone else can distill the bottomline nature of our shared dilemma any better--the parasites need to be removed so the economy and all of us dependent upon it can breath and live. The parasites will still have their #1 toy to masturbate--the stock and bond markets--but neither are The Real Economy.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 26 2019 2:30 utc | 153

Here are two interesting links from PRC:

Xi Jinping Meets with Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger of the United States (US)

Wang Qishan Meets with Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger of the United States (US)

Henry doesn't look too good. I wonder what keeps him going.

---

I agree with posters who don't see that HK is really the Chinese government's problem, it is the semi-autonomous HK government's problem, and they don't actually appear to be adherents of the PRC government, but rather of the local British-legacy elites and plutocrats. So the picture I have is that such parties as are using the protests as a way to attack China, are instead harming the "second system" the UK set up in HK when they left.

To be clear, it is true that HK is indeed China's problem, since it's part of China; but while the "two-systems" arrangement lasts, it is not yet China's responsibility to make that second system work.

So to me the situation looks like the anti-Chinese forces at work here are precipitating the end of the HK arrangement, which they supposedly favor, in hopes of using that against China. Which suggests stupidity and/or desperation to hit back effectively, to look relevant.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 26 2019 2:30 utc | 154

karlof1 @155: Yes, that's how I see it. "Private finance" functions as parasites on the productive economy, rent-seekers, and we have no real chance against our former competitors while the parasites are still in control. They view us, the citizens of this country in theory, about the same way as a farmer views his cows.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 26 2019 2:45 utc | 155

@vk

"China also has freedom of speech and assembly. Literally nobody goes to jail or killed in China because of their ideology."

Tell that to labor organizers, among other dissidents.

"And there's no cyber wall in China."

Are you effing kidding me? I myself had to help a friend living in China set up a VPN via Singapore to bypass their cyber wall.

If the best you can offer is private institutions and corporations censoring people, that's a hell of a lot better than the Chinese state imprisoning someone for trying to start a union.

And are you seriously arguing that China isn't a state capitalism economy? The controlled market, dominated by government controlled firms but with a significant entrepreneurial component, that just isn't a thing? Deng Xiaoping and his reforms just didn't happen?


@psychohistorian and Laguerre

China being 5,000 years old is a meme. It isn't true in any sense other than that people living there 5,000 years ago are the ancestors of people living there now. It would be like saying Sumerians lived in what is now Iraq, therefore modern Iraqis have a civilization nearly 6,000 years old. There's no evidence for the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors, or for the supposedly following Xia Dynasty, and little for the subsequent Shang Dynasty. It's not until the Zhou Dynasty, roughly contemporaneous with Classical Greece, that we get to something that probably actually existed, and even then all the records testifying to it were written after the fact and are no older than the third century BC.

There's also likely a lot of projecting backward by the record keepers, portraying the past as Emperors and Dynasties when in reality that isn't how things were. It creates a sense of continuity of government and culture that is illusory.

That's all on top of the fact that 'China' grew massively over time, so even if they existed claiming any of these states as being the 'civilization' of all the people now within its borders is laughable.

@denk

Yes, I know, everyone who disagrees with the hivemind is an agent. Good job.

Posted by: Merasmus | Nov 26 2019 3:26 utc | 156

Bemildred @156--

Thanks for your reply! As for HK, when it comes time for its assimilation into PRC, its citizens will be demanding the opportunity as by then the difference will have altered to what it was like in 1970 except PRC will be in ascendance with HK declining.

What we have happening is a war between parasitic private finance led by the Evil Outlaw US Empire and a global citizenry led by an emerging Eurasia and its allies demanding the benefits derived from successfully developed social-democracy. Examine the nations TrumpCo's attacking and you'll verify the correctness of that analysis.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 26 2019 3:32 utc | 157

Merasmus @158--

In the West and former colonial global South, labor organizers were and continue to be murdered for trying to organize.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 26 2019 3:35 utc | 158

Merasmus 158

kiddo, in a way you'r right...
fukus isnt merely a police state,
its a fucking global tyranny.

blood for oil,
R2p[lunder]
economy hitmen,
FF
state terrorism,
chem warfare/bio warfare
coups,
assasinations,
long arm jurisdiction,
extra judicial executions,

P.S.
Dont whine,
learn to debate.

Posted by: denk | Nov 26 2019 3:36 utc | 159

Merasmus 158

is it mandatory for trolls to use
stupid moniker like this ?

Posted by: denk | Nov 26 2019 3:41 utc | 160

Merasmus 158

Police state ?
murkkans who go to China marvel at the
ABSENCE of police, hell, they dont even carry 'side arms', unlike in the states, where the goons pull a gun on you at the slightest excuse and every five min, you hear police sirens
screaming at full blast in the neighborhood.

Get out of your mom;s basement and smell some flower kiddo !

Posted by: denk | Nov 26 2019 3:50 utc | 161

@pogohere i thought "so to speak" was a sufficient clue that it was said tongue in cheek.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 26 2019 4:10 utc | 162

I guess today is my day of three's

Below are 3 links from Xinhuanet that I found should be of interest to fellow barflies...again without Take Away's even though the gender discrimination one has good ones.

China releases article exposing serious gender discrimination in U.S.

China supports reasonable reform of UN Security Council: envoy

Turkey tests Russian-made S-400 systems: sources

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2019 4:11 utc | 163

pretzelattack @ 164

(:>)

Temptation is the only thing I can't resist.

Posted by: pogohere | Nov 26 2019 4:30 utc | 164

James @ 125:

... was [Jeffrey Epstein] a pawn for the intel agencies - mossad-cia and etc, so as to blackmail a number of higher up players? probably... was he a sexually exploitative person of under age girls - probably, but he still needed to be brought to court and he wasn't... too many arrows point to his having too much info on others and that he had to die to bury that info.. that is my general overview on epstein... is he dead, or was he replaced with another dead body? who knows...

You can try watching this interview of Whitney Webb and then read her articles at Mint Press News.

Philip Giraldi (ex-CIA) is another writer / commentator who has had articles on the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking / blackmailing operation published at a number of websites and blogs.

And of course Epstein's connections to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak (and his hi-tech company Carbyne, with what that connection means for privacy invasions in the US and other countries) and current Schrodinger's Cat equivalent Binyamin Netanyahu are worth another lifetime's reading.

Posted by: Jen | Nov 26 2019 4:52 utc | 165

thanks jen... i don't have a super strong interest in the finer points of the story as the underlying story in it all doesn't appeal to me.. and the fact that he has been taken out has removed the thought that some relevant info would come out too, so there is not much attractive in the whole story on epstein.. maybe i am being selfish to not make myself fully aware of all there is to the story.. i feel like i am doing myself a favour not though... but thank you for the links.. i will take a look at philip giraldis.. cheers james

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2019 5:06 utc | 166

that giraldi article confirms some of my basic view on epstein.. it is depressing reading that stuff for a number of reasons..

Posted by: james | Nov 26 2019 5:11 utc | 167

@karlof1, @psychohistorian, @vk, @financial matters - and others interested in economics.

I'd like to recommend the latest edition of Renegade Inc, which devotes this episode to an interview with economist Steve Keen as he reveals his war against economists - whom he holds almost criminally culpable for inaction on climate change.

Professor Keen in this episode talks fast and is superbly articulate as he illustrates the mythos that economists promulgate, and which Keen is absolutely convinced is what they truly believe, rather than some dark conspiracy.

The topic essentially is costing the process of climate change - and how modern economists are shrugging it off as if a planetary capacity crisis is smaller than capitalism itself, and as if capitalism can continue practically uninterrupted by changes in climate.

Economics, Keen demonstrates, is made up of impossible and perhaps even insane assumptions already. To add more such wrong assumptions when costing climate change or planetary carrying capacity is simply more of the same.

Keen says that for 200 years - since the Physiocratic school of economic thought, to be precise - the element of energy has been left out of all economic theories, whether classical, Marxist or neoclassical. Keen is agitating, lecturing, lobbying and modeling to put the element of energy back into the economic theories, and thereby to create realistic models that can place costs and values on the real planetary life that we want to maintain.

I downloaded the 30-minute show and I'll have to watch it again. It's pretty terse in presentation, and even the very sharp Ross Ashcroft had to keep his wits about him to keep up with Keen, who has a lot to say. I'm certain I don't do justice to Keen's theses (there are more than one) in my few words here.

I found it spellbinding, and revolutionary. Curious to know how some of you might find it:
Lies, damn lies and climate statistics

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 26 2019 5:17 utc | 168

James @ 168, 169: The whole Epstein affair does not appeal to me either and even the fellow's connections to Mossad, Ehud Barak and Binyamin Netanyahu are of no appeal. If someone were to discover some connection with an organ transplant hustling scheme, I'll be like Bleuuurghhh. What a tight little incestuous world these crooks are shagging each other in!

Posted by: Jen | Nov 26 2019 6:00 utc | 169

Jen, james

Giraldi's assessment of the intelligence agency that sponsored Epstein is worth repeating, given that the possibility of Epstein-related Hasbara propaganda to mitigate the outrage over Epstein's crimes has become an issue during this discussion:

As a former intelligence officer myself, there is little doubt in my mind that what Epstein did and how he did it was an intelligence operation. There is no other viable explanation for his filming of prominent politicians and celebrities having sex with young girls. And as for the question of whom Epstein might have been working for, the most likely answer is Mossad . . .

Israel and high-profile Jewish players also have continued to turn up like bad pennies in the Epstein case ... Epstein clearly had contact with [Ghislaine Maxwell daughter of Mossad agent Robert Maxwell,] former Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak and Wexner also had close ties to the Jewish state and its government. Barry Krischer, who may have been the source of the comments to Acosta, has received the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) award.... Krischer, cooperating with rabidly pro-Israel Epstein lawyer Alan Dershowitz, played a key role in the failure to adequately punish Epstein for his conviction for pedophilia.


!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2019 6:01 utc | 170

@ Posted by: Grieved | Nov 26 2019 5:17 utc | 170 with the Steve Keen at RT link...thanks for that link!!!!

I am a bit stunned by Keen not bringing up the public/private finance issue given his MMT background but let me chew on that and share more reactions

Preface to my remarks....
In the early 1970's I spent a year with a Cultural Anthropologist and a dozen other students studying the future and I still have my copy of Limits to Growth. During that year we used an engineering tool called Field Anomaly Relaxation (FAR) to develop a socio-economic model and develop alternative scenarios like the Limits to Growth folk but cruder in many ways. If interested you can go to the link provided and download the report of what we did.....produced by me before words processors....grin
http://www.lettinggobreath.com/FAR/WholeSystemEarth.HTML

Remarks
I agree with Keen that the social science economists like their models simple and so excluding land and energy (externalities) helps them build models that are way beyond BS but explainable like religion to the masses. I have long seen economics that used to be called political economy as a wannabe science fig leaf of cover for global private finance folk behind the curtain and am still having trouble thinking that Keen does not say that but says we need to take control away from economists and give it to engineers, with which I agree.
Keen also backhandedly was critical of socialism and never talked about the mixed economy concept which I am troubled about but I digress....what he did say in a roundabout way was that as a species following capitalism we do a bad job of risk management and I agree.
He talked a bit about the population growth issue but didn't point his finger at the education/religion reasons for the lack of management of that issue...it was clear back in the early 70's that population growth is lesser in areas with higher education and availability to birth control which was nixed by the monotheists....and education would bring knowledge about global private finance as the core of the anti-humanistic social contract and so we can't have that.
Keen is correct that it is obvious now that we are on one of the bad outcome trajectories written about in Limits to Growth and I think he is optimistic about us having 20 more years before it is too late.
I still believe that risk management is the key concept that engineers need to educate the public about as they take over running the world because there is so much we don't know but should be prudent about in our decisions.
I agree with Keen that reducing our energy and resource consumption is a step with the biggest bang for the buck...mass transit instead of the car culture, reducing food waste, not replacing your cell phone every 2 years...for profit.....argh

I am glad to see this sort of conversation taking place and hope it continues and grows. At one point I had a goal to computerize the FAR method and combine it with a front end of the Delphi technique which is a consensus generating tool but pushing for public finance instead of private finance still seems to me to be the core next necessary step before we can rightfully do FAR future modeling and policy development w/o profit bias.

Enough for now

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2019 6:38 utc | 171

Jen, james

My interest in Epstein is primarily as it relates to democratic governance. Compromising powerful people means greater control. Control that most people don't suspect is exerted in our "free" society.

Related to that is the many false or misleading media narratives being spread that attempt to quell speculation about what Epstein was doing and the possibility that he was extracted instead of killed. For example, Epstein's blackmail operation is often described in the media as an off-shoot his financial business and the possibility of his being connected to a State is generally not mentioned.

Then there's the interest in seeing justice done. It's frankly good to see that moral wrongs can spark outrage that disturbs the careful planning of the control-obsessed "powers that be". Their bumbling antics have become the butt of jokes as no one believes the official story.

And those antics continue to amuse as demonstrated by Prince Andrew's recent interview.

!!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2019 6:43 utc | 172

Alastair Crooke gets a bit too much into "Trump the Redeemer" thinking here(IMHO), but makes some good points:

Is Trump a ‘Covert Ally’ to the Multipolar Order?

In particular I have thought the Gorbachev/Yeltsin analogy with Obama/Trump had some merit for a year or so now. Obama the failed attempt at reform, Trump the auctioneer that was hired to sell off the remains.

I like Crooke, a very perceptive man, but sometimes he struggles to express himself.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 26 2019 6:48 utc | 173

@ Grieved again with the RT link of Keen

I laughed at the title of the show, Lies, damn lies and climate statistics because back in my business/accounting/economics college days there was a book as required reading called Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics...it still may be used, I don't know, but is very educational.

Another book that my college group read in our future study contract was Silent Spring by Rachel Carson which I suspect is even more applicable now.....

Posted by: psychohistorian | Nov 26 2019 6:59 utc | 174

@pogohere it's not really irony unless you think the globe is cooling, though.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Nov 26 2019 7:30 utc | 175

@ Merasmus | Nov 25 2019 23:50 utc | 134

Re: 'Freedom of Speech?'

Where? Which?

There exist two words it is not safe to place together in the same month without serious risk of summary execution on the spot. Political correctness indelibly marks the very absence of 'free speech'; don't cod yourself otherwise (unless you enjoy that pleasure). If this condition exists in China, I am unaware, but it certainly is well established in the hearthomeland Outlaw U. S. Empire. So risky is this conjunction of those two words that it has become prima facia evidence of wilful self-extermination - suicide. Those two words, innocent of intent, are 'woman' and 'driver'.
You have been cautioned.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Nov 26 2019 8:04 utc | 176

Walter Shaub is a former director of the United States Office of Government Ethics who served under President Barack Obama and briefly under Donald Trump. Shaub resigned from the position in July 2017 in frustration, saying he could do no more to curb ethical violations within the Trump administration. He cited the administration as proof that there was a need to strengthen the ethics program. On Sunday, he posted a thread on Twitter outlining the dangerous precedents being set by the Republican Party in its truly unethical handling of its mad king Trump.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1198670441730256897.html

https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/1198670441730256897

Posted by: Sarah | Nov 26 2019 9:08 utc | 177

Walter Shaub is a former director of the United States Office of Government Ethics who served under President Barack Obama and briefly under Donald Trump. Shaub resigned from the position in July 2017 in frustration, saying he could do no more to curb ethical violations within the Trump administration. He cited the administration as proof that there was a need to strengthen the ethics program. On Sunday, he posted a thread on Twitter outlining the dangerous precedents being set by the Republican Party in its truly unethical handling of its mad king Trump.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1198670441730256897.html

https://twitter.com/waltshaub/status/1198670441730256897

Posted by: Sarah | Nov 26 2019 9:13 utc | 178

A few days ago (Nov 22), the Brits failed to meet the UN-mandated deadline to return the Chagos islands to Mauritius.
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/474112-chagos-colonial-lose-allies/

More commonly known in international affairs as Diego Garcia; it's the British Empire's last(?) indulgence in ethnic cleansing, as well as a key part of the US empire's power projection.

John Pilger has investigated this in depth in his excellent "Stealing A Nation", well worth watching in its entirety:
http://johnpilger.com/videos/stealing-a-nation

Wikileaks has also uncovered embarrassing facts about the US-UK deal and the underhandedness involved in retaining the islands.
Apparently it involved purchase of Polaris (sub-launched nukes).

As the RT article postulates, maybe the post-Brexit EU/international community can bring more pressure to bear on the issue of the Chagos.
But the hegemeony would rather dissolve the UN than give that up.
It would certainly open up a can of worms with regard to other occupied territories, such as Gibraltar, Malvinas, Cyprus, and others:
http://www.mauritiustimes.com/mt/laffaire-des-chagos-implications-et-consequences/

At best, the "ownership" will change hands and the US will maintain their base, giving the new owners some meagre compensation (such as freedom from sanctions or regime change for as long as they are compliant).
Whatever compensation the Chagossians get (when/if that is) will be an insult, symbolic at best.

Posted by: ziogolem | Nov 26 2019 11:07 utc | 179

bevin @ 137 says:

It is not true that I either defend or attack sexual relations between young women and old men. I simply point out that they have long been accepted in most societies and for thousands of years

true, but pretty much in the context of arranged marriage, not predatory chicanery with multiple youngsters...which behavior in traditional Inuit culture, for example, was dealt with by an invitation to go hunting and then a shove off the edge of the ice flow.

I am also at pains to make it clear that such relationships do not fall under the designation of pedophilic relationships

usually, but not always.

Pedophilia (alternatively spelt paedophilia) is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children.[1][2] Although girls typically begin the process of puberty at age 10 or 11, and boys at age 11 or 12,[3] criteria for pedophilia extend the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13.[4] A person must be at least 16 years old, and at least five years older than the prepubescent child, for the attraction to be diagnosed as pedophilia.(wiki)

there are reports of the sexual abuse of girls as young as 12 in the Epstein saga.

These are well defined by clinicians

not really. there's mucho mumbo jumbo in this area. i mean, pedophilia can apparently be diagnosed by a desire alone(yes, not all pedophiles are child molesters), whereas with actual sexual contact it becomes sexual abuse as well.

anyhoo, for better or worse, pretty much everyone across the mainstream and alternative news media describes Jeffrey as a pedophile, so popular usage seems to have, once again, prevailed.

for me personally, i like to think of him splattered on jagged ice.

Posted by: john | Nov 26 2019 11:33 utc | 180

JR 170
which also means that letting him continue in illegal activities was a way to compromise the Israeli so-called left and help Likud.

Posted by: Mina | Nov 26 2019 12:16 utc | 181

@ Posted by: Grieved | Nov 26 2019 5:17 utc | 168

If this Keen included Marxism in his hit list, then he's wrong -- unless he's strictly referring to 20th Century Western Marxism.

The beauty of Marx's theory is precisely in the fact that he unifies biological and human sciences. He has a general theory about why the Homo Sapiens form societies and a model that can explain and predict how historical societies evolve.

Indeed, the main reason bourgeois economics (orthodox and heterodox), abhor Marx is because his theory on capitalism demonstrate the system has an entropy on a historical level, i.e. an entropy much lower than the entropy of the human species: capitalism will end.

Posted by: vk | Nov 26 2019 12:19 utc | 182

Correction to my previous post: "an entropy much higher..." (not "lower").

Posted by: vk | Nov 26 2019 12:21 utc | 183

@ Posted by: Merasmus | Nov 26 2019 3:26 utc | 156

Unions are perfectly legal in China. China has seen record numbers of strikes (more than 700 in 2017 or 2016, last time I searched for it). Indeed, some far-leftists love to rub these numbers to prove China is capitalist!

This is funny, because these same far-leftists complained about the USSR socialist system because they didn't allow unions and strikes: they campaigned for the USSR to allow them because that would make their socialist system better, not because that it would make them capitalist (you can still hear Trotskyists crying about "soviets, soviets, we must have soviets!" today). But now that China learned from the Soviet mistake, it is now capitalist, not socialist?

In my opinion, these levels of dissonance and hypocrisy are actually a symptom of the general decline of the West. Western Marxism is not at the vanguard anymore and, deep down, they know it. So they screech whenever they can in order to denigrate China so they can still claim they are at the center of progressive thinking.

Well, they are not. China is now the center of scientific socialism (i.e. Marxism), because it is only there it can be used in practice -- the so-called "praxis". Western human sciences is now outdated.

And on what basis are you stating censorship by big corporations is "better" than State censorship? Everybody has a right to an opinion, but a debate is only fruitful when opinion is based on science, which is the most rational thinking we have nowadays.

You think the CCP doesn't know when you're using VPN? All the Chinese know their government knows they use VPN to access Google owned websites. Their goal is not to block their people to Western content, but to make its access less "monetizable" and more difficult. After all, they are not going to give it easy to the competition, are they? Or are you insinuating Microsoft should put Google Chrome native on their systems and Google as the default search engine in their own browser?

Posted by: vk | Nov 26 2019 12:43 utc | 184

psychohistorian @174:

HowToLieWithStatistics

Yep, I have thought since I first ran into them that the reason statistics is so popular among "scientists" is that it's so easy to fudge well enough to get a grant.

Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 26 2019 12:53 utc | 185

@ Posted by: lysias | Nov 26 2019 2:22 utc | 151

There's absolutely no evidence that indicates the Third Reich was anything more than a traditional liberal economy under martial law and hyperinflation crisis (caused by the Versailles Treaty).

It was definitely not socialist. We don't need to speculate why Hitler changed the name of his party to "national socialist": he explained why himself in a 1923 interview.

The classification of the Third Reich as "socialist" is definitely a Western (specially British) revisionism. If you read the documents of the time, you can clearly see Hitler's name-changing didn't fool anybody. In the Soviet war documents (for internal consumption of the Armed Forces, therefore not propagandistic), for example, they are (correctly) called "fascists". Indeed, the term "fascist" is often used interchangeably with "German" (e.g. "we downed x fascist airplanes"). Hitler's name-changing certainly didn't fool the communists in France, Italy and the USA either -- to the point even Trotsky and his followers publicly supported the USSR against the Third Reich during WWII.

We can also attest the Third Reich was considered socialist by exactly zero people by the fact that communism emerged with immense prestige in the West in the aftermath of the WWII, specially in France (where the Communist Party became the main opposition) and Italy (where the Communist Party only didn't win the following elections thanks to direct CIA intervention, and consolidated as the main opposition party until its dissolution in the late 1980s).

The term "Nazi" was not the dominant one during the time. It was probably a British media invention, and was popularized in the Anglo-Saxon world -- that's why it is most used in the USA.

Many British historians like to characterize the Third Reich as a variant of socialism in order to:

1) distance nazifascism from liberalism (the ideology created by the British empire), and;

2) distance WWII from WWI, i.e. to contrast WWII as an ideological war waged by two crazy (socialist) masterminds (Hitler and Stalin) with the WWI, the inevitable noble war waged for entire noble (albeit tragic) reasons (i.e. the preservation of the British Empire).

Posted by: vk | Nov 26 2019 13:10 utc | 186

China being 5,000 years old is a meme. It isn't true in any sense other than that people living there 5,000 years ago are the ancestors of people living there now.

Posted by: Merasmus | Nov 26 2019 3:26 utc | 156

That's a very pompous reply. Of course the present state isn't 5000 years old, but the people and the country and the civilisation is, indeed quite a bit older in a more simple fashion. The written history of early times is mythological, but hey, you know, written history isn't the only way these days to access the past. The technology, for example, advanced at about the same pace as in Mesopotamia and Egypt. They had glazed pottery in the 2nd millennium BC, as far as I remember, the same time as in the Near East.

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 26 2019 13:44 utc | 187

john brewster | Nov 25 2019 18:46 utc | 103 (anger/angst) (and all others)

Oh dear, John, you seem to have misunderstood... zero anger or angst at our landing zone. I am happy as can be. You don't know man. Ah wrazzled with death and adversity...this stuff today ain't chit. No Sweat! The Clown bothers me less than a flat tire. He is embarrassing though...

Things will go one way, and then another. I have zero political opinion. I do have opinions about history, what is good, and what is not good - stuff like that - and informed opinions in some areas.

Why would anybody have a political opinion when there is no polis, when they have no power? Seems silly...

..............

In another area...Comrade Brother Corbett has a good video predicting the "outcome" of all elections, no matter who votes of for whom...

He makes his case... 9 1/2 minutes, with end notes.

.................


And UNZ > a job on Oppenheimer-as-soviet-agent.... Article based on some questionable a-priori assumptions...like that there were any secrets, ever. And it informs details of the Atlantist subversion - a policy coup consummated in April 1944

You tell me about what happened in April

Posted by: Walter | Nov 26 2019 14:55 utc | 188

I'm not going to respond to any more of the dishonest trolling on the Epstein subject. But it does seem to bring out the worst in people.

This, for example, seems to me to be rather sick and sadistic:
"...for me personally, i like to think of him splattered on jagged ice." john@178

The sad reality is that while people ought to be questioning the 'very convenient' demise of the man who was either 'suicided' or murdered while in custody and under surveillance, there is so much high fiving and cackling at the man's death- mixed in with speculations that he is actually sipping cocktails in a bar somewhere, surrounded by masseurs- that, under the guise of celebrating sexual morality of a conservative kind, what is actually taking place is an apology for the custodial terror which, together with the rape of prisoners, has become an almost accepted part of the American gulag-the biggest there has ever been.
Whatever he did in life, it is clear that Epstein's decline, fall and death has brought out the most callous and uncharitable attitudes among us.
That this nastiness should be packaged in crocodile tears for the victims and cheap talk of justice as revenge will surprise nobody. It is a measure of our declining civilisation. It happens every day in the courts, police stations and prisons.
And, for the most part, totally innocent persons, smeared by the media and the Establishment, are those hurt. And always by hypocrites claiming to be shocked by the scandalous allegations into sacrificing the hardest fought for and best aspects of the legal system- the presumption of innocence, the need to prove charges beyond reasonable doubt, the insistence on honest and transparent conduct by prosecutors, the maintenance of decent conditions in custodial settings, with proper exercise, diet and access to legal advice.
Those who condone the mistreatment of prisoners that they dislike must accept responsibility for the mistreatment of all prisoners.
Those who chortle at the idea of Epstein being beaten, are close kin to those who laughed at the image of Ghadaffi being killed by a thug bayonetting his bowels. And they can hardly object to the complacency with which warmongers and corrupt politicians witness the disgraceful treatment accorded to Julian Assange.

Does it have to be spelled out?
If we condone the mistreatment of those designated 'sex offenders' then we condone the mistreatment of anyone that the state or its organs chooses to smear in that way. And the most vulnerable will always be the poorest, loneliest and unrepresented individuals. If we go along with injustices suffered by billionaires we are condemning thousands of much more vulnerable people to even worse treatment- the sort people routinely receive in the prison system.

Posted by: bevin | Nov 26 2019 15:33 utc | 189

>The PRC aims to have eliminated poverty by 2030 and by 2050
>achieved a "moderately successful society" where all are cared for.
>Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 25 2019 23:24 utc | 129

Well, yes, every politician since the beginning of time is in favor of jobs and against crime. Grand statements by Dear Leaders will not fill empty bellies. I recognize there has been huge progress in China over recent decades, such as no more famines. It seems likely that conditions will continue to improve, at least for a while.

In Uncle Sam Land a person with no cash or credit is denied access to all resources (except enough emergency medical care to keep one alive). They are reduced to begging and dumpster diving. Yes there are specific classes of people that can get social benefits, if they can get past the gatekeepers whose job it is to keep people out.

So once again I will ask, do Chinese workers with no money or credit get access to resources, or are they forced to beg and sleep in doorways?

I applaud the goal of moderate success, but I am doubtful that the growing class of Chinese elite will share it with workers. Hierarchies always concentrate control and psychopathic parasites like Trump always end up at the top. The top always ends up too heavy after sucking everyone else's blood, and collapses. Then we do it all over again. For thousands of years.

That's why I keep thinking that social institutions need to evolve beyond hierarchy. But people seem to accept hierarchy as a law of nature and are unwilling to consider the idea that maybe there is a better way to do things. I can't say what that better way might be, but I know that asking the question is the first step to finding answers.

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Nov 26 2019 16:17 utc | 190

… 2019 protests follow and even greater degree of capitalist decline (post-2016). Besides, we have analogous manifestations in many declining capitalist societies (France, UK, USA, Germany, Hungary, Ukraine, Poland, Spain, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Bolivia, Uruguai) more or less at the same time -- including the revival of some nonsensical ethnogenetic causes, such as the Catalonian independence from Spain, or the Scotish independence. vk at 98.

Yesss.. - imho a typology of these various ‘movements’ would greatly help sort out what is going on and tamper down futile ‘capitalist’ vs. ‘socialist’ arguments. — All societies have ‘bosses’, invest in the future, reward ‘leaders’ and ‘the powerful’ in some ways, and distribute ressources to all their members in some measure. Yet, sometimes societies break up in bursts of horrific violence..

Dealing with a multi-dimensional description, picking out the relevant distinctions is tough.. Ex. of cats. from perso pov:

1. Secessionists. Part of a larger territorial whole, they see themselves as ‘rich’ - ‘culturally special’, with a past that ‘certifies’; so fight for ‘independence.’ Splitting away will garner advantages! Appeals to ‘democracy,’ ‘self-determination’ and so on are clarioned. Ex. Catalonia, HK, Scotland. Cat. independ. was squashed immediately on request by Spain to the EU, > the EU would not allow it (though Regionalisation is in the EU’s long term plans, so they were pissed.) Note, Cat. and Scot. indep. want to split from ‘near’ authority while wanting to be part of a more ‘global’ far off, org., the EU. Idk about HK - were it to split from China, would it really want to become part of, a dependency of, USuk (heh the flags..)? Or just an offshore-glitter ersatz mini-polis? Idk.

2. Stick-it-to-da-man. The Ballot box, and Protests. Those badly done by, austerity, financial crash 2008, lack of growth for them, repression, etc. vote for pol. outsiders who hold up vague promises (Trump: Drain the Swamp, MAGA), or ‘against’ the PTB arrangement(s) (Brexit), or try to vote ‘citizen movement’ etc. Some (more clued in imho) set up popular non-pol party Revolts like the Gilets Jaunes.

3. Total support for ousted leaders who did a lot of re-distribution, against those who want to reverse that (ex. in S. Am.)

What are the other categories .. 4, 5…?

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 26 2019 16:21 utc | 191

bevin says:

This, for example, seems to me to be rather sick and sadistic:
"...for me personally, i like to think of him splattered on jagged ice." john@178

oh dear, bevin, did i scandalize you with those mere words, with what is obviously hyperbole, an obvious allusion to my Inuit reference?

curious that you ignore the rational part of my comment and just presume and conflate in what comes across as a rather haughty, and confusing, diatribe of moral grandstanding.

Posted by: john | Nov 26 2019 16:40 utc | 192

@133 jen...

first off for some reason, i missed this post of yours as well! i am sorry.. i see it now.. let me quote from it..
"My main beef (and Jackrabbit's as well) is that whenever the subject of Jeffrey Epstein happens to turn up on MoA comments forums, the conversation ends up being steered in a direction that attempts to mitigate or excuse the participation of people in what is a sex trafficking operation in a scheme that serves the interests of the people and organizations Epstein worked for and who funded his scheme and his other business interests, and who ultimately determine (if they haven't done so already) what his fate will be once he becomes a liability to them. " that is interesting regarding the MOA response.. i guess i haven't been paying close attention.. i agree with the concern you and jackrabbit have if this is so and i agree with the way you frame all this here too.

@169 jen / 172 jr... thanks for stating all that..

@187 bevin quote - "Whatever he did in life, it is clear that Epstein's decline, fall and death has brought out the most callous and uncharitable attitudes among us." that may be true in some people, but not all people bevin..and i don't believe anyone here at MOA is gleeful over the demise of assange either, so your example while valid is not applicable to the posters at moa as i see it..

i am curious bevin.. what do you think are the injustices that this billionaire suffered? he wasn't given a fair trial and he was either murdered, or not while awaiting trial... that is all i can see - which is significant.. and what about those who suffered from what looks like some giant blackmail scheme to trap people high up politically? do you not empathize with them as well if even half the stories we hear are true? i don't think the suffering is equivalent here either... it is typically the innocent, weak and poor that are the ones that suffer to an undue extent, not the billionaires... in fact a good case could be made that billionaires have already screwed over way too many people on their way to the financial top - trump is another one that comes to mind - for them to be thought of as having suffered to the extent they have caused suffering on others.... i don't know bevin, but the more you do comment on this topic, the more i find your commentary questionable as well..


Posted by: james | Nov 26 2019 16:51 utc | 193

bevin's screed is delusional nonsense

Twisted and repulsive. WTF? on steroids.

Is he covering his tracks, as in: "Hey guys, I'm not Hasbara, I just have mental issues." Or does he actually have mental issues?

!!

<> <> <> <> <> <>

I'm not going to respond ...

And then he does.

The sad reality is that while people ought to be questioning the 'very convenient' demise of the man

The sad reality is that ... bevin's focus on semantics helped to stymie such questioning and discussion. And he's still at it.

there is so much high fiving and cackling at the man's death ...

I don't see that, especially not here at moa. Is an offhand, sarcastic remark (like john makes @178) "high-fiving and cackling"?

what is actually taking place is an apology for the custodial terror which, together with the rape of prisoners ...

Wow. Another tangential rabbit hole - once again leading us away from "questioning the 'very convenient' demise of the man"

Epstein's decline, fall and death has brought out the most callous and uncharitable attitudes ...

Epstein's sweetheart plea deal was a miscarriage of justice. bevin terms the public revulsion at that injustice, "most callous and uncharitable".

nastyness ... packaged in crocodile tears for the victims and cheap talk of justice as revenge

Wow. Just wow.

It is a measure of our declining civilisation.

Here bevin essentially asserts that calls for justice, not the LACK of justice, is indicative of declining civilization. He does this by ignoring, once again, the facts of the matter.

It happens every day in the courts, police stations and prisons.

Nothing about bringing Epstein to justice has been a normal, everyday thing.

And, for the most part, totally innocent persons, smeared by the media and the Establishment, are those hurt... the presumption of innocence ...

But not in Epstein's case. Yet, once again bevin suggests that Epstein was an innocent victim of state persecution. He was decidedly NOT. He actually received favorable treatment via a sweetheart plea deal. And his death/extraction once again denies justice to the victims.

... the insistence on honest and transparent conduct by prosecutors

Still ignoring the fact that Epstein benefited from a sweetheart plea deal by prosecutors who were dishonest and non transparent.

Those who condone the mistreatment of prisoners ...

Who is he talking to? There's no one like that here.

And I don't see anyone cheering for Epstein's demise - just the opposite, in fact. Epstein's demise/extraction was about denying justice to the victims, not mistreatment of prisoners.

Those who chortle at the idea of Epstein being beaten ... can hardly object to ... the disgraceful treatment accorded to Julian Assange.

There's no comparison between Epstein's treatment and Assange's. None. Epstein was found guilty of sex offenses and a professional evaluation found that he is a pedophile with the highest risk of relapse/repeating that behavior. Yet Epstein got a sweetheart plea deal.

those designated 'sex offenders'

Epstein was a convicted and registered sex offender, not simply "designated" as one! He was evaluated by professionals and found to have the HIGHEST risk of relapse/repeating his crimes.

If we go along with injustices suffered by billionaires we are condemning thousands of much more vulnerable people to even worse treatment- the sort people routinely receive in the prison system.

We should demand that billionaires are not treated like ordinary prisoners in the prison system?

Billionaires are well protected by their connections and army of lawyers that they can pay for.

The injustice here is to the victims of Epstein, his gang, and the state that sponsored them.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 26 2019 17:14 utc | 194

@ Posted by: Trailer Trash | Nov 26 2019 16:17 utc | 188

That's why I keep thinking that social institutions need to evolve beyond hierarchy.

That's essentially Marx's conception of communism (a stateless, classless society).

Posted by: vk | Nov 26 2019 17:48 utc | 195

i wonder if bevin is familiar with the 'justice' often meted out to child molesters who find themselves incarcerated with 'normal' criminals?

law of the jungle?

Posted by: john | Nov 26 2019 18:02 utc | 196

Yet another "Keiser Report" discussing Moody's issuance of a "Global Debt Downgrade," wondering why Moody's took so long to do so. Max tries to make light of the situation, but Stacy rearranges Moody's wording to make it an accurate statement of reality. How much longer before the next shoe drops is the question most are asking.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 26 2019 19:07 utc | 197

@karlof1: See my comment to you on a previous open thread.

Posted by: S | Nov 26 2019 19:18 utc | 198

bevin | Nov 26 2019 15:33 utc | 187

I agree. You wrote>"Does it have to be spelled out?
If we condone the mistreatment of those designated 'sex offenders' then we condone the mistreatment of anyone that the state or its organs chooses to smear in that way. And the most vulnerable will always be the poorest, loneliest and unrepresented individuals. If we go along with injustices suffered by billionaires we are condemning thousands of much more vulnerable people to even worse treatment- the sort people routinely receive in the prison system."

(it's obvious that the wealth may be seized as ill-gotten gains and evidence...and that no criminal millionaire need ever go to jail, because when he gets there he's broke....but that's another matter)

There is no advantage in cruelty, I agree. There would be an advantage to de-brief him and keep him in a quiet a decent prison. I, for one, would expect Jeffery to sing like a bird, and say the most interesting things, eh...perhaps about his "friends" and their adventures in love...

Jeff was running a criminal operation for at least one major State. He was an employee, and a criminal, and a spy. A whore-master on the payroll, and as part of those jobs, a rapist. It's part of the job.

Now, it seems, he functions as pharmacos - in the Jewish tradition of heaping all the sins on a donkey and then driving the donkey into the wilderness, to be forgotten, and leaving his guilty bosses, and State apparatus, unpunished, while all those cute pictures rest in a intelligence office safe, waiting to be used.

If I happen to see Jeff, what should I do? Right, STFU. He's obviously on a new assignment.

More generally, if an Nth agency, say MSNBC, cries that Joe Schmo is a pederast, and is believed, they can bring a lynching to an innocent man, any innocent man. Any intelligence service, right down to Mayberry cop shop can do that, and do it to anybody.

And a forced injection of strychnine can be called a flu shot...or a vaccine - the power is in the naming, the deception, the ringer, the con.

Posted by: Walter | Nov 26 2019 19:23 utc | 199

Grieved @168--

WOW! I don't know how Keen can be topped. Back when The Oil Drum blog was very active, we talked about energy inputs into the economy constantly so it was a big surprise to hear that input's been totally ignored. I guess too much ecological and energy economics emphasis masked that part of the "Economic Priesthood" dogma. Yes, Keen says much, but IMO his last 5 minutes are the most important since the clock can't be turned back. Contemporary economics as an area of study is akin to medieval alchemy, broken clocks, and fairy godmothers.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 26 2019 20:04 utc | 200

« previous page | next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.