Hong Kong - "Marginal Violence" Fails To Win More Protest Support
After nearly six months of violent "protest" the U.S. supported anti-Chinese rioters in Hong Kong are switching into overdrive.
Today there were more than 16 hours of continuous violent rioting by small groups of black clad "protesters":
Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor has addressed the press after a day of violence in which at least one protester has been shot with a live round, while another man was set on fire during a dispute, as clashes continue across the city.She condemns the actions of protesters, warning them that it is "wishful thinking" to expect that the government will yield to their political demands if faced with violence.
Commuters are facing transport chaos and disruption. Major thoroughfares across several districts have been blocked and MTR services suspended after objects were thrown onto the tracks of the East Rail line, a fire was set on a train at Kwai Fong and protesters vandalised several other stations.
Today's rampage comes after a "protester" died when he fell from a floor in a parking garage. The rioters claim that police was involved in the incident but surveillance footage shows that the man was all alone.
After peaceful "color revolutions" ceased to work violence was introduced as part of all U.S. "regime change" operations. The thinking behind it was explained in a June 30 New York Times op-ed:
An important idea that has been circulating in online forums is now firmly planted in my mind. It is called the Marginal Violence Theory (暴力邊緣論), and it holds that protesters should not actively use or advocate violence, but instead use the most aggressive nonviolent actions possible to push the police and the government to their limits.
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The protesters should thoughtfully escalate nonviolence, maybe even resort to mild force, to push the government to the edge.
Violence against the government was supposed to create a violent response which would then increase the support for the protests. That theory seems not to work in Hong Kong. Legit demonstrations are now reduced to a few hundreds of people. The hundred thousands who attended the first demonstrations no longer come. They have recognized that the core protesters' "mild force" is just senseless violence and that these rioters are completely unreasonable.
Today they intentionally burned a man who was verbally opposing them:
By Monday evening, Leung Chi-cheung, a 57-year-old father of two daughters, was fighting for his life in hospital with severe burns to his body as well as head trauma.
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The video footage then showed Leung returning to confront the protesters, whereupon a dispute ensued.“During the dispute, he was doused with flammable liquid and set alight,” a police source said.
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Another source described the attack as ruthless.“The victim stood up bravely after the sabotage, but the rioters tried to burn him alive,” the source said. “Such an attack is inhumane.”
There is video of the attack.
The U.S. poster child Joshua Wong has called the arsonists among the rioters "fire magicians". Like other leaders of the "pro-democracy" opposition Wong has refused to condemn the violence.
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Other rioters attacked a traffic cop who was clearing a minor road blockade. One rioter tried to grab his gun and got shot:
In the video, an officer grapples with a protester and points his gun towards another approaching protester. The second protester reaches out towards the gun, the officer dodges, steps back and shoots him in the torso.
A truck driver who was waiting for the road to be cleared applauded the policeman's action. Here is video of the incident.
The police arrested more than 260 rioters today. Unfortunately they will likely be released on bail and go back into the streets to continue their violence.
Hong Kong's leader Carrie Lam can and should change that by an emergency decree. Taking a thousand or more of these misguided upper class students permanently off the street would dramatically decrease the violence.
The severe economic damage the "protests" cause to regular Hongkongers is no longer deniable. A large majority of them would likely welcome a tougher response to the rioters.
Posted by b on November 11, 2019 at 17:32 UTC | Permalink
next page »thanks for the update on all this b... it seems to be dying down and not working for the protesters, so they are resorting to greater violence... it doesn't look to be working.. this joshua wong guy is a real stooge... supporting people using flammable liquid is way beyond the pale here...
Posted by: james | Nov 11 2019 18:35 utc | 2
I've always thought it curious how similar the structure of the HK demos, wide popular demonstrations, with a hard violent core, is to the gilets jaunes demonstrations in France. The "Black Blocs" doing the violence in France were never properly identified. They were supposed to be left-wing, but there's no proof. and I've heard no details on the identities of individuals. Only one former boxer, who was videoed beating up police from close-up. You know, even if they were unemployed youth from the cités, someone has to pay them to turn out regularly. But this question hasn't been pursued.
Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 11 2019 18:36 utc | 3
The protester who set the man on fire should be charged with attempted murder and sentenced to life imprisonment. Anything less than that is a miscarriage of justice, period.
Most of the protesters and opposition leaders (including Joshua Wong) should have been shipped to Xinjiang for a minimum of 10 years of exile.
Posted by: d dan | Nov 11 2019 18:40 utc | 4
China has just agreed to buy the otherwise moribund British Steel corporation. As Dmitry Orlov points out, the US and many of its imperial provinces, such as the ukstate, as they follow along the USSR's collapse trajectory, are going to be selling off more and more of their capital goods, just to keep disaster at bay for a little longer - like burning the furniture after all the winter fuel has gone.
Since China - and eventually Russia - are going to be the main sources of rescue capital, maybe the foreign instigators of the anti-Beijing riots in HK should have another think about consequences further down the road; especially as nothing they can do in supporting the anti-Beijing rioters - the so-called 'pro-democracy activists' - is going to dent China's ultimate re-establishment of control over this native part of its ancient territory.
Posted by: Rhisiart Gwilym | Nov 11 2019 18:40 utc | 5
The thread has barely begun and it's already messed up! Great.
Posted by: Quentin | Nov 11 2019 19:11 utc | 6
Re: James #3,
Has anyone else noticed that the US's previous favourite masked "freedom fighters" in Syria, were big fans of burning people alive and now the Hong Kong "freedom fighters" in the supposed "Revolution of our times" have taken up this hobby as well, very interesting..... As for this Joshua Wong guy, no surprizes there, it looks like he knows who pays his bills and he's singing their song with all the force his black little heart can muster.
Posted by: Kadath | Nov 11 2019 19:14 utc | 7
Carrie Lam . . .condemns the actions of protesters, warning them that it is "wishful thinking" to expect that the government will yield to their political demands if faced with violence.
"Political demands?" I'm not aware of any such demands. The extradition bill has been canned, so what else is there of a political nature. What so-called "pro-democracy" political demands are they? Nothing I've heard of. The protesters seem to be protesting the HK government that the Brits bequeathed to them, which includes the virtual independence of the HK government from Beijing.
So why did Lam say that? is my question.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Nov 11 2019 19:15 utc | 8
It may be giving the security state too much credit, but they may be in the process of intentionally leading civil protest into widespread discredit, even as thy use it in their astroturfing of colour revolutions.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Nov 11 2019 19:29 utc | 9
The protesters/demonstrators/rioters have no political program beyond their "five demands". They are motivated by a core resentment - hatred/mistrust of mainland PRC - but have no means or strategies to favourably resolve their position. The escalating marginal violence represents a temper tantrum, and selfish appeal to peak experiences have motivated the rioters from the very start.
The HK police have been, by international standards dealing with this sort of insurrection, rather restrained, but a significant portion of the HK population apparently believes the opposite - that massive unprovoked police brutality has been the story. Focussed narrative management has been fairly sophisticated amongst the "upper management" of the protest movement. Their ability to quickly work memes - such as the girl with the damaged eye - into snazzy graphics and protester costumes in very short order is impressive. Stunts like the Banderan "Glory To Hong Kong" anthem or the human chains manned by photogenic high school students are very slick PR, and are organized by professionals rather than "spontaneous" "leaderless" expression. Informed suspicion looks to Taiwan as a significant source providing financial support. Taiwan national elections in January.
Posted by: jayc | Nov 11 2019 19:29 utc | 10
I hope the next iteration of Occupy Wall Street has been studying the methods of all these color revolutions and is able to apply Marginal Violence Theory in its birthplace.
Posted by: Ghost Ship | Nov 11 2019 19:35 utc | 11
Oh dear, the margins are all screwed up again. What is causing that? Must be a software glitch in the webpage program.
Posted by: ToivoS | Nov 11 2019 19:40 utc | 12
Rhisiart Gwilym @ 6
like burning the furniture after all the winter fuel has gone.
What furniture? The various British governments since the Thatcher one back in 1979 sold off the family silver a long time ago. All that's left is leased from the private sector
Posted by: Ghost Ship | Nov 11 2019 19:41 utc | 13
@12 8 months of 'Marginal Violence Theory' in the US is very hard to imagine. It would get a violent response in the first 5 minutes.
Posted by: dh | Nov 11 2019 19:49 utc | 14
Watch DW News' Tim Sebastian interviewed HK student leader, Joey Siu. Read Youtube readers comments. Enjoy thanks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9nNeO0yWyk
Posted by: JC | Nov 11 2019 19:58 utc | 15
What a pity that the thread, so promising, is now wrecked.
A pity too that laguerre, the source of much valuable information
from the Arab world, should, idiotically, use the occasion for, an
entirely unfounded, attack on the "yellow vests" in france.
Unlike the Hong Kong protesters, obviously organised and financed by
the imperialist state and its creatures, the gilets jaunes have perfectly
reasonable, well founded grievances against the Macron government's
neo-liberal destruction of vital elements of the social safety net.
Or is laguerre in possession of evidence that the regime change artists in
DC are financing and otherwise encouraging what has been going on for more
than a year in France's streets?
Posted by: bevin | Nov 11 2019 20:03 utc | 16
Beibdnn | Nov 11 2019 17:57 utc | 1:
They are. A really old tactic. Give a man enough rope and he'll find a way to hang himself. These "protestors" already lost the narrative which is reflected by the low numbers of local support from the streets. Setting someone on fire who doesn't support your view is going to really put a damper on their "movement", especially when the victim is a local civilian. I hope the family of that man set on fire will pursue all avenues of justice.
Laguerre | Nov 11 2019 18:36 utc | 4:
There will never be any efforts by the MSM and government in pursuing on the identities of this "Black Bloc". In the past, some were identified as anarchist but this movement has now been taken over by the intelligence community.
Ghost Ship | Nov 11 2019 19:35 utc | 12:
The tactic started in the US. Antifa I believe was what they called themselves. Funny thing is that adults from places of "higher learning" were caught up in the movement.
Posted by: Ian2 | Nov 11 2019 20:11 utc | 17
Posted by: JC | Nov 11 2019 19:58 utc | 16
wow, that kid is lost.
Posted by: Per/Norway | Nov 11 2019 20:24 utc | 18
Operation 'Occupy' Hong Kong continues: The delegitimizing of all protest in China. Brought to you by Globalists A to Zionist, every single one.
Posted by: Zedd | Nov 11 2019 20:30 utc | 19
As I've said here many times before, the game's over for the procapitalist HK protesters. The problem with the color revolution (in US military nomenclature: unconventional warfare) tactic in China is that the USA has very little to no penetration in its territory. A color revolution only works because it is a military coup disguised as a popular revolution, not because it is a revolution. And, for this disguise to work, mass manifestations must be followed by a rearguard of armed war. It is this second element -- armed, hot war -- that the protesters in HK lack, and they lack it because China expelled American influence long ago, some years after their victory in the civil war (1949). American influence continued restricted in Tibet until the mid-1980s, when the CIA finally gave up regime changing China.
Fun fact: it was the Communist victory in the civil war that gave birth to McCarthysm in the USA. Contrary to popular myth, it wasn't the ressurgence of the USSR from the ruins of WWII and its testing of its first nuclear bomb (1949) that triggered McCarthy's witch hunt, but the "loss of China" ("who lost China?"). That's why the first people purged by McCarthysm were the elements, assets and other OSS/CIA employees in the field in China, and not some hypothetical Soviet spies in high offices within the White House or even Congress (although the purges of Harry Dexter White and the Rosenbergs were notable examples).
Good grief, is no one on this planet, besides MoA, aware that most of these so-called "color revolutions"
are part and parcel, the work of America's NGOs, to subvert and destabilize other governments.
And all because, to the U$A, the're perceived as competitors, and must be throttled..
Posted by: ben | Nov 11 2019 20:45 utc | 21
Posted by: bevin | Nov 11 2019 20:03 utc | 17
You've failed to understand the gilets jaunes, bevin. The large popular demonstrations were indeed justified, against 'abandonment', much like northern Brexiters. But it was not against Macron himself, only recently elected when it started, but rather against the whole tendency of recent French policy, including previous presidents, Hollande, Sarkozy, Chirac, etc. They were against the neo-liberalism prevalent in many countries, where wealth has been concentrated in the hands of the few, at the expense of the many who've not benefited at all. A problem not easy to resolve in the short term.
The violence though was completely different, the point of my comment. I saw it myself, a frightening column descending at a run the rue St Denis. We saw afterwards the damage they'd done. This has nothing to do with the popular peaceable demonstrations, which I saw on other days. Someone was paying to provoke violence. The French don't like to admit exterior influence, but me, I thought Bannon. Break France is part of the Trumpian agenda.
Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 11 2019 21:00 utc | 22
IMO, given their actions, it's time to stop calling those in Hong Kong protesters and instead label them terrorists for that's precisely what they are. Those of the Far Right historically have consistently acted as terrorists, although there are a few instances of Far Left violence aimed at those very forces of Reaction that were also terroristic--French and Bolshevik Revolutions. Throughout my life I've decried such violence and sought ways to implement political change without resorting to such methods. Unfortunately, there are times when the forces of Reaction really offer no other choice but to seek their eradication. Hong Kong presents an interesting scenario where in one of the few exceptions the State isn't where the forces of Reaction are located--those forces are what support the terrorists and are external to Hong Kong: As with Syria, they amount to a foreign invasion using local provocateurs who've become terrorists at the behest of their Reactionary benefactors, which are the CIA, MI-6, and the Outlaw US Empire and its Anglo ally.
IMO, it's clear Trump is all for the current actions being undertaken in Hong Kong and Latin America to the point where he's following the Dulles Brothers's game plan from the 1950s and Reagan's from the 1980s by using "covert" proxy forces in place of US combat forces so he can say with a straight face that he's bringing the troops home, that he doesn't want any forever wars. Some may recall my appraisal made months ago that Trump was still pursuing the #1 Outlaw US Empire policy goal of attaining Full Spectrum Dominance. What we've witnessed over that past @3years was a retrenchment followed by renewed effort using different tools, which the current situation confirms.
As I wrote on the previous thread in response to events in Bolivia, no quarter should be given to the forces allied with the Outlaw US Empire and its Neoliberal doctrine as it's quite clearly out to enslave humanity into the massive debt trap it's been building over the last 40 years. Some may say Karl, you're paranoid. I'll respond by saying Take a real good close up look at what's actually happening and the tight time window in which it must be accomplished. The warning Pepe made about Brazil wasn't just meant for Brazilians.
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 11 2019 21:09 utc | 23
Or is laguerre in possession of evidence that the regime change artists in DC are financing and otherwise encouraging what has been going on for more than a year in France's streets?bevin | Nov 11 2019 20:03 utc | 17:
Nobody is denying those with legitimate grievances regardless if the protests were in Yemen, France or China. Unfortunately these large scale movements have the tendency to be either taken over or influenced by foreign forces, often with an agenda that goes against local interests. However, one cannot deny that there are foreign forces working against France and Europe as a whole.
ben | Nov 11 2019 20:45 utc | 21:
Although the US have earned the reputation of sticking it's fingers in everyone's pie, sometimes the instigators are not even American. There is a reason why TPTB are called the Deep State. Peter Lavelle once mentioned this in a podcast where there are elites from every region on this planet working together and against each other. The chaos we're seeing is a fight between these elites across the globe.
Posted by: Ian2 | Nov 11 2019 21:13 utc | 24
I can't help wondering why the authorities don't simply send in the army. After all, look how easily the American authorities broke the Occupy Wall Street movement: brutal beatings, pepper spray, and mass arrests. Clamp down on an already compliant media. Pretend it's all about preserving motherhood, apple pie and the American Way. Bingo! OWS was no more.
Posted by: pasha | Nov 11 2019 21:35 utc | 25
Ian2 @ 24 said;"Although the US have earned the reputation of sticking it's fingers in everyone's pie, sometimes the instigators are not even American."
True that, but, probably U$A financed..
Posted by: ben | Nov 11 2019 21:41 utc | 26
@8 Don Bacon
The original five demands: rescind the extradition law proposal,then they called for a complete permanent withdrawal of the bill, the withdrawal of the “riot” characterisation of the June 12 protests, the unconditional release of all arrested protesters, the formation of an independent commission of inquiry into police behaviour, as well as universal suffrage. They added, resignation of Chief Executive Carrie Lam.
They continue with these demands, while also trying to add end-of-Beijing-control of laws and elections (per the Basic Law which establishes one country, two systems.)
Here's a pdf link for the Basic Law. Easy to read.
https://www.basiclaw.gov.hk/en/basiclawtext/images/basiclaw_full_text_en.pdf
What they are trying to do is break the Basic Law, separate from China as a standalone country. They are violent revolutionary, terrorist separatists.
China is allowing the violence to be the water on the fire. There may be 40% support for Hong Kong separated from Beijing, but only a few thousand will fight in the streets. The police force can be and is most likely being reinforced with Cantonese-speaking police from Guangdong, Fujian, Shenzhen. There have been well over 250 injured police so far.
The damage to the local HK economy is very severe. All the shop owners and employees (thousands of them) who have lost their livelihood are turning against the rioters. The tourism trade is dying. Hong Kong is being poisoned by the violence.
These factors show President Xi and the Standing Committee's strategy is working. This "revolution" will die in the streets eventually.
Then the Chinese Intel services will document it was paid for, trained, supplied and coached by US and UK covert officers.
China's capability to identify and record all these subversive operations is well-known. They cracked the CIA years ago.
Posted by: Red Ryder | Nov 11 2019 22:09 utc | 27
@7 kadath... that is a horrible death dying by being burned... i agree with @23 karlof1 - they need to be labeled terrorists with actions like these.. there is no other way as i see it.. doing this shit, you are not a protester anymore...
Posted by: james | Nov 11 2019 22:17 utc | 28
I hope that chinese authorities behave with wisdom as they been doing so far.
I mean political, psychological control and advance knowledge of the cui bonos, i.e. a clear idea of whom a given action will favor in he end.
Let the protesters hit and damage the economic life of HK is a sound policy.
But the peaks of violence should be handled with peaks of punishment.
If burning a man alive, who according to reports was simply saying ‘we are all Chinese’ does not provoke a violent response by the government, I don’t know what would. This isn’t just some story being spread around, there is a video of this atrocity. Are the people of Hong Kong not shocked by this?
Posted by: SteveK9 | Nov 11 2019 22:30 utc | 30
Thoughts:
1) No wisdom
- The protestors are not being the change they want see
- Acting like thugs
2) Thugs help the Chinese government
- Protestors = chaos, government = order
3) Big Picture Question: What is the West's vision of international and domestic order?
- And is there one?
- More chaos than order lately, no 1,000 points of Light
- "I can't stand this indecision / Married with a lack of vision / Everybody wants to rule the world"
Posted by: OutOfThinAir | Nov 11 2019 22:59 utc | 31
Tonight, due to circumstances, I happened to watch the entire Dutch eight 'o clock teevee news from the state broadcasting organization. As you would expect, the violent police shooting in HK was featured prominently. No mention at all of the incendiary attack, as that would have been too confusing to the audience who have been on a strict diet of fact free narrative.
Par for the course was an obligatory mention of the USA "defending the Syrian oil fields" - without any further mention of the who what or whys, as any of that would have surely have been detrimental to the sanctioned orthodoxy of the cherished narrative.
@bevin:
I don't always agree with laguerre's take on matters, but AFAICS his assessment of the French troubles is largely correct and you may have simply misread what he actually stated. The yellow vests are quite genuine and the black block rioters are highly suspect in many ways. Guess what part of the protests reaches the eyes of the viewers of the average evening news in neighbouring countries?
From my personal vantage point, I consider Both "black block" and Antifa to be likely replete with "well meaning" useful idiots, but at the core run by secret service personnel. I put the "well meaning" in quotes, because the few cases whom I personally met or even knew quite closely and who are not just sympathtic to these groups, but might actually participate, are in my estimate little more than would be football (soccer for ya merkins) hooligans and would be military types. Some are even part time hooligans or past time/flunked militaries.
In the Netherlands, the Antifa HQ used to be in Leiden, not only home to the oldest and most prestigious university of the Netherlands but also the main reservoir/recruitment pool of Dutch intelligence agencies. It is generally a fairly right wing place, so it is rather odd for the Antifa group to be so strongly centered there. It would have made much more sense for them to be centered in Utrecht or Nijmegen, university cities that are traditional leftist student bastions. Strangely, that is not how things work for Antifa.
Furthermore, it is rumored that the anarchist cafe where this Leiden Antifa group meets is or used to be run by a couple with Israeli passports. Though that is a rumor that I have no personal witness to.
Posted by: Lurk | Nov 11 2019 23:24 utc | 32
@30 “We are all Chinese, but some are more Chinese than others.” Mainland government will sit back until this HK government falls. They have no reason to prop it up.
Posted by: Fly | Nov 11 2019 23:27 utc | 33
Rhisiart Gwilym @ 5:
"... As Dmitry Orlov points out, the US and many of its imperial provinces, such as the [UK state], as they follow along the USSR's collapse trajectory, are going to be selling off more and more of their capital goods, just to keep disaster at bay for a little longer - like burning the furniture after all the winter fuel has gone ..."
You'll know when the US and the UK really are in dire straits is when people start burning tyres in city squares, Kiev Maidan style - but they're burning them for heat and cooking, not to defy the police or security forces.
Posted by: Jen | Nov 11 2019 23:41 utc | 34
The ‘yellow umbrella’ protests of five years ago were organised by the tycoons and the gullible idiot students managed to throw away their promised universal suffrage before they even received it. By insisting that universal suffrage was ‘not enough’ and that they also had to have a say in the short list of candidates for Chief Executive they ended up with neither and the tycoons got another 5 years of selecting the LegCo (and thus controlling it for their own interests). As an aside, we can guess who also got involved at this point - the clue is in the colour title and the fact that locals struggle to pronounce either “yellow” or “umbrella”
This time round, the original protests were again organised by the Tycoons and some more unsavoury Chinese billionaires and succeeded in crushing the extradition bill which would have been an existential threat to many of them. The other early participants in fuelling the protests have been the Taiwanese. Having been smashed in local elections earlier in the year, the Taiwanese government spotted that aggressive anti China rhetoric, coupled with pious words about freedom and democracy in Hong Kong and a few more arms deals with the US had a huge positive impact in the polls. Expect them to continue until January when they have a General Election. Finally of course we have the boys and girls from Langley, running their usual interference but also encouraged by grandstanding Senators on the Hill. Note it was when Rubio, Schumer et al invited out useful idiots like Joshua Wong to Washington back in June for their Hong Kong Freedom and Democracy Bill that the real violence began. (read the comments below the fawning lunch with the FT article on Wong before they closed them to get some insights into the naivety? of the FT)
Here too, it is to be hoped that come January and the need to win Elections that the need for a trade war win will supplant the Orwellian ‘daily hate’ on China as a tactic and that China will tell Trump “ we know the sh*t you are up to, stop it right now” .
So, stage 1, tycoons manipulate mass protests to cover their own backs and perpetuate their own control of the economy, the result of which is the unbelievably high property prices that lead to so much inequality. Step 2, the Taiwanese bring in massive covert logistical support to the naive students and encourage them to ‘fight for democracy’ as part of their own domestic Election Campaign. Step 3, the US gets involved with their customary black tactics of escalating violence backed up by enhanced propaganda about freedom and democracy for Hong Kong (and sudden invention of concentration camps for the UIghurs) and are happy to destroy the economy of Hong Kong if it wins a small battle in their ongoing Imperial War against China.
I live in Hong Kong and it is terrible to see how powerful (self) interest groups are manipulating the kind and lovely people who live here to their own malign ends.
Posted by: Mark T | Nov 12 2019 0:12 utc | 35
Same happens in Chile. Leftists backed by criminals both domestic and foreigners cause huge damage to people and property. Unfortunately the government is very weak. Mr Piñera's only concern is his international image. We are on the verge of being a second Venezuela.
Police make a great effort to repress these criminals.
(Google translation)
Posted by: Roberto | Nov 12 2019 0:18 utc | 36
laguerre if I misunderstood your point-and I seem to have done so- I apologise, sincerely.
On the other hand the case of the well known boxer seems to be a bad example of sinister forces: his position was justifiable, even heroic, the police were undoubtedly acting very violently-no doubt under government encouragement-and he, now I believe serving a lengthy jail term, was defending what he saw as the people.
As to those who attribute magical powers to Bannon- I am sure that he enjoys such notices.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 12 2019 0:22 utc | 37
Note that the empires, cockroaches recommenced their violence and destruction after Trump was unable to attain a trade deal with China - a deal he desperately wants, no matter what nonsense he spouts to the contrary. Suddenly after trade negotiations were halted by China taking a tough stand. Violence and destruction escalated with increased ferocity, aiming malicious attacks against the in civilian population. In one instance, a civilian being doused in lighter fluid and set on fire. Does this tactic remind you of anything? A tactic used against Chinese soldiers, incinerated in buses Some years back during another coup attempt.
Posted by: Giap | Nov 12 2019 0:55 utc | 38
@ 23 Karlof1 well said. The US clearly is trying to global control and it's efforts should be pushed back at every opportunity. Also 100% about Trump using Reagan's method of regime change. All it takes is the thinnest veneer to fool the majority of my countrymen.
@ 27 Red Ryder good post!
The escalation with both the burning and attempted gun grabbing sure does make it hard to argue that these are "protestors" using facts. The burning is especially horrific, not that the terrorist thugs haven't beaten multiple people for doing the same as this unfortunate man.
Posted by: sorghum | Nov 12 2019 1:01 utc | 39
What happened to Leung Chi-cheung reminds us of the late Orlando Figuera in Venezuela. He was attacked in similar circumstances. Protestors set upon him after deciding he supported the government. They burned him badly, and he did not recover.
From Venezuela Analysis, 5 June 2017: "On May 20, the 21-year-old was passing through the opposition stronghold of Chacao when he was accused of being a government supporter by masked protesters, who brutally beat him before dousing him in gasoline and setting him on fire."
https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13170
Disturbing and upsetting these similarities.
Posted by: Peter L. | Nov 12 2019 1:33 utc | 40
@26 pasha
Hong Kong doesn't have an army. Although I'm sure the Business Constituency will see to it that funds are made available for enhanced militarisation of the police force
@30 SteveK9
Hong Kong people are of course horrified and angered by the breakdown of civil society in their city and by the misrepresentation of events in Western media.These gangs of marauding thugs are called cockroaches by many and there is much support for the police.
Posted by: TDeL | Nov 12 2019 1:45 utc | 41
I'm sorry, but I find it disheartening that there is not one post that I can see that questions the legitimacy of this act perpetrated by the opposition protesters. You can not say for certain that this was not the work of Chinese/Hong Kong government subterfuge aimed at discrediting the opposition as barbaric. And you can not say that this would not be a sound strategy if you were at the top trying to orchestrate the messaging re: the opposition in the media and portray them as ghastly thugs.
There is absolutely nothing to be gained by assaulting and nearly murdering an unarmed, plain-clothed civilian. Why would they do this? Or, at the very least, how does one protester's unhinged act reflect on the movement in general? It does not and so this piece today from b equates to garbage in my mind.
In the past few months, articles I have read and posts I have seen here, have mentioned that the opposition idolizes those violent instigators in the Maidan in Ukraine. If you are following what I am speaking to, here, you will notice that this was the priming event, to equate legitimate protests with unhinged and unwarranted violence. And now you have this. How convenient.
Tell me again why any sane Hong Kong protester would look at the Maidan and what has followed in Ukraine as something to be emulated? They have not done this, but there are those who are looking to seize on the images of the Maidan in their messaging re: the opposition.
Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 12 2019 2:20 utc | 42
@ 42 nemesiscalling... the game can be played both ways, but using a flammable liquid to cover someone with it and then light it, it essentially some kind of murder charge for whoever is responsible.... and i am pretty sure that the msm out of the usa will not be informing their readers of any of this shit either which begs the question 'why?'
Posted by: james | Nov 12 2019 2:45 utc | 43
TDeL | Nov 12 2019 1:45 utc | 41:
I suppose the Hong Kong government could further militarize their police force but at a cost to their public image. However, it's been a trend for some time in militarizing the police around the globe. It's not noticeable as the US is being talked about the most.
I just realized that I've forgotten about the people from the other side of the tracks. IIRC, Hong Kong is pretty much Chinese mafia (Triads) territory. Do these protestors really believe they'll get away from negatively affecting their cash flow? Judging by the actions of the mafia from other countries such as the Sinaloa Cartel, you're pretty much a wanted man, especially when dealing with an organization with global reach. The mafia never forgets and will patiently hunt them down.
Posted by: Ian2 | Nov 12 2019 3:20 utc | 44
@8- Don Bacon:
Carrie Lam . . .condemns the actions of protesters, warning them
that it is "wishful thinking" to expect that the government will
yield to their political demands if faced with violence.
"Political demands?" I'm not aware of any such demands.
So why did Lam say that? is my question.
Per a DW News (Germany) actual video of Carrie Lam's statement, her exact words were "SO-CALLED political demands."
. . . and thanks to @27 Red Ryder for the additional information.
Posted by: FZ | Nov 12 2019 3:47 utc | 45
The marginal violence campaign is aimed primarily at foreign audiences, and there is no reason at all to think it isn't working. The failure of the national government to take any action is largely due to some elements' desire to keep Hong Kong as a neocolonial concession that will serve as a power base for capitalist restoration...and for the ones who think fighting the US, even for national survival, is bad for business.
VK@20 is correct the Republican attack on Democrats centered on losing China. But the Cold War started earlier, and the purges started earlier too. The Truman loyalty program has got to be the latest starting point for government purges. But party purges started with Truman running out the New Dealer Wallace, lest he become president. The purge of the Progressive Party wasn't about losing China either.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 12 2019 4:10 utc | 46
Nemesis Calling @ 42:
The source of the news and the video of the attack on Leung Chi-cheung is the South China Morning Post. SCMP has generally been supportive of the rioters and protesters until recently. SCMP still refers to Joshua Wong as a pro-democracy icon and activist.
If there had been any possibility of hinting at police involvement in the attack on Leung, the SCMP might have seized the opportunity to make that insinuation. But police appear to have been nowhere near the area where the attack took place.
There had been news of a student protester falling from a carpark and later dying in hospital from severe head injuries, in spite of the fact that he fell one storey (from third storey to second storey). The SCMP managed to suggest that police might have been partly responsible for the incident or for allowing the incident to happen.
Posted by: Jen | Nov 12 2019 4:50 utc | 47
Wow...so now we have a very obvious fascist shill here who wants to convince people that the punks that have been extremely violent in Hong Kong and have already badly mauled innocent civilians would have 'no reason' to set that poor guy alight...
Right...because they are all such good guys, it is just impossible...and so Bernhard's reporting is 'garbage'...
Why then doesn't this clown get lost instead of irritating honest folks here who are well aware of his shilling...?
Posted by: flankerbandit | Nov 12 2019 5:59 utc | 48
What's needed is the formation of armed defence guards by the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions (not to be confused with the CIA-front Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions) to defend the infrastructure and public spaces and to give the police some spine in clearing the streets of these vandals and punks. They need to have their 'heads acquainted with the pavement'. And why aren't the instigators and leaders, including Jimmy Lai, the Rupert Murdoch of Asia, up on charges, in jail without bail, of riot and affray and fomenting counterrevolution. If this were a full scale civil war, these elements would be the first to meet 'summary justice'.
Posted by: Stephen Morrell | Nov 12 2019 6:04 utc | 49
@33 Fly | Nov 11 2019 23:27 utc
I also believe this HK situation is far more complex than first meets the eye.
Such an obvious outburst of anarchy by well coordinated gangs of black-shirt thugs in HK at a time of protracted non-negotiations 'negotiations' between USA and China seems a little too obvious. Under the guise of some local extradition laws that might challenge the local HK criminal elites the otherwise smoothly run and highly popular transit hub and western banking center (read HSBC money laundering) gets a lot of superficial infrastructure damage, huge western media coverage, and little apparent mainland government reaction.
I suspect in the complex mental maze of oriental politicking this is likely framed as a win-win-win in Beijing:
1) The China-US trade negotiations are framed with a real (or otherwise) classic US 'color revolution' which has some neutralizing effects on US pressures. China benefits marginally as the percieved 'victim' and certainly does not suffer.
2) The local HK elites are exposed and brought to heal -- either as anti-government reactionaries supporting violence; or at least as impotent in their capacity to deal with it. China mainland benefits as the PRC military stationed in HK watches 'two-systems' trend faster towards one-system-one-country (and justification for lots of 5G everywhere!).
3) The regional Chinese economy benefits as HK's special ex-UK global status gradually evaporates resulting in Shanghai and other mainland centers emerging as new foci for regional/global commerce.
Cui bono?
The central government of all China.
And I suspect the controlled demolition of little Britain's last ex-foothold in east Asia will not stop until a new equilibrium is established on China's eastern borderlands. And the classic Mandarin Chinese touch is to present this domestic pressure on Cantonese China as a USA bullying policy justifying new upgraded surveillance infrastructure. They may not be entirely wrong in this -- nor entirely right.
Pass the postmodern popcorn (and transit otherwise)!
Posted by: imo | Nov 12 2019 6:20 utc | 50
james@42
It‘s an easy and logic question that NemesisCalling does not want to ask: why the opposition leaders, such as Joshua Wong and Joey as well as their MSM friends, have not cried out loud to condemn this horrendous action IF it had been planted as he suggests so as to smear China and re-engerise their course, which is losing its asupport from the ordinary HKers?
Take a look at DW News'interview with HK student leader, Joey Siu, who ABSOLUTELY refuse to condemn the atrocity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9nNeO0yWyk
Posted by: lulu | Nov 12 2019 10:10 utc | 51
Btw, it is said that Joshua Wong is actually not a native Hongkongese, since his parents were Vietnamese boat people who were taken in as refugee in Hong Kong. Now he is repaying the kindness of HK by destroying it.
Another leader, Denise Ho Wan-see, who has got trained by the infamous Human Right Foundation, the so-called Davos of dissident, long time ago, is a Canadian passport holder.
(FYI: there were hundreds of thousand of Vietnamese refugees who came to HK in 1970s-1980s during and after Vietnam War. Most of them from anti-commie South Vietnam. It is suspected the violent hardcore rioters are descendants from these anti-commie Vietnamese boat people.)
Posted by: lulu | Nov 12 2019 10:45 utc | 52
@NemesisCalling 42
You are correct: at the time of writing, there is no hard evidence that the protesters are responsible for the arson attack. You are also correct in that these acts do not gain any sympathy to the protesters.
However, circumstantial evidence says that:
- the protesters' leaders have openly advocated violence
- the protesters have openly used violence in several other cases.
Yes, it could be Government agents carrying out these acts: we all know governments are capable of such things. But then how to explain that the protesters have not publicly condemned the violence?
If you were correct, then how does advocating violence gain sympathy to the protests? Are we to think the protest leaders, which have been seeing US representatives, are also working for the Chinese Government?
If you were correct, then how does destroying public services and preventing people from going to work gain sympathy to the movement?
To me it is likely as b laid it out.
Posted by: astabada | Nov 12 2019 10:53 utc | 53
Firstly, let me thank b for his great work!
I want to contribute my personal view to the general meaning of the HK protests.
Regardless of one's views on the Chinese Government, most people would agree that the reaction to the HK protests has been very tolerant. This reaction is in stark contrast with the violent suppression of the Gilets Jaunes in France.
Compare these two protests with the historical 1968 student protests in France and the USA, and with the 1989 student protests in China: the roles have been reversed!
I think we are witnessing here a power shift: the Chinese Government is so strongly in power that it does not feel threatened by the HK protests, and can thus "wait out" the demonstrators. On the other hand, Macron (and his supporters) felt the Giles Jaunes were a serious threat, capable of changing French policies, hence the harsh repression.
Posted by: astabada | Nov 12 2019 11:11 utc | 54
The 'protesters' are rioters.And should be stopped by any means.
Posted by: Realist | Nov 12 2019 11:25 utc | 55
B: Even if all your reporting is absolutely correct and balanced, and that is a big "if," shame on you for passing over into a role of attempting to advise the Chinese and Hong Kong authorities on what they "should do" to the protestors. Are you now an advisor to a fascistic power structure?
Posted by: Ed | Nov 12 2019 12:29 utc | 56
What is the truth about the UIghurs
Since the Empire is built on a foundation of lies and the mass internships of the UIghurs in concentration camps is the go to line for Neocons what is the truth about China's treatment of these people in Western China?
I do not believe that Gordon Chang, or most of the others care since in general, they lack empathy.
FOX news spin
If you ever want a laugh, read fox news website and their dimwitted commenters who swallow it hook line and sinker. The author personalizes all of the actions of the police, 'a policeman wildly shooting into the crowd shooting one protester in the stomach' vs a very passive, 'a counter-demonstrator was sprayed with a liquid that then burst into flames', as if these substances had a mind of their own. I call the commenters dimwitted because one should be able to pickup blatant propaganda and be suspicious of it.
Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Nov 12 2019 12:40 utc | 57
Thank you, NemesisCalling @42, for the State Department approved social media narrative. We would never have known that point of view FUD if you hadn't provided it. [/snark]
I suppose NemesisCalling would have us believe that the Chinese version of the CIA (which doesn't even exist in the real world) were active in Odessa on May 2, 2014? NemesisCalling would perhaps argue that Orlando Figuera was burned by the Chinese too. And all of those people torched in Syria? That was just Chinese spooks trying to make America's "moderate rebels" look bad, I suppose.
Or maybe NemesisCalling would say they were KGB agents behind all of those burnings, even though the KGB no longer exists outside the fevered imaginings of brainwashed morons either.
NemesisCalling would want us to forget that horrific murders, torture, and mutilation are standard operating procedure with all CIA death squads worldwide, from Indonesia to Mexico to Ukraine to Argentina and now to Hong Kong. The point is to generate "Shock and Awe™" in the target population (remember that phrase? It wasn't made up at random. It is official US foreign policy accidentally blurted out by the Idiot in Chief).
Readers who have not yet read Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine (link to full text) yet are operating in ignorance. There are some who will protest that Klein exaggerates the horrific and inhuman nature of the CIA's efforts to influence populations, but the fact is that Klein understates how vile the CIA and their death squads really are. Read the book and thus arm yourself against the CIA's efforts to "Shock and Awe™" you.
How do we know that the suggestion by NemesisCalling is nonsense? Because the Chinese don't even have a analog of the CIA, much less one that has a documented history of committing sick and horrible brutality and atrocities like the CIA has done from its very first day of existence. NemesisCalling's post is simply FUD. Is is possible that China has some super-secret equivalent to the CIA that goes about assassinating and torturing and "regime changing"? Sure, but there is no evidence that such an organization exists, much less any evidence of its handiwork in the world (no assassinated leaders, no regimes changed, no mutilated bodies left on street corners to terrorize local populations, etc).
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 12 2019 12:52 utc | 58
Sane protester? They are not sane protesters, they are agent provocateur of a foreign power. Why wouldn't they want to emulate the maidan? This is maidan 2.0, chaos and blood for all....the only think murica ever brings.
Posted by: nemo | Nov 12 2019 12:59 utc | 59
Hey, NemesisCalling, Joshua Wong, chief liaison between the roving bands of thugs in Hong Kong and the US State Department, calls the goons that lit the man on fire "fire magicians".
Hey, NemesisCalling, maybe Joshua Wong is also working for your imaginary Chinese version of the CIA too?
Perhaps like a particular local bunny's take on US politics you will argue that the Chinese themselves manufactured the protests from the very beginning so that they could have something to oppose? Those craft Chinese! Their plots are so inscrutable and intricate!
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 12 2019 13:09 utc | 60
Surely one litmus test of whether or not these violent, brutal actions by the so-called protestors - and they are very numerous from beating up ordinary people and journalists to burning someone alive to damaging public transport (thus affecting ordinary working people, *not* the rich residents of Hong Kong) to defacing many buildings, is whether or not the MSM (at least as represented in this household by both the BBC World Service and NPR) give any or equal airtime to "protestor" acts of violence as they do to police "violence" (tear gas mainly), let alone condemnatory coverage of such "protestor" acts.
Neither the BBC nor NPR gave equal prominence to the business of the police shooting (and in my hearing no real background to how it came about) and the setting alight a man by a "protestor" - indeed, this heinous act was both given second place in all the reports I heard yesterday and mentioned only in passing with *zero* attribution to anyone, simply that it "happened." Definitely no condemnation of this brutal, murderous action, while there was clearly condemnation of the police "violence" if only in the reporters voices.
Meanwhile - no mention of the ongoing Gilet Jaunes protests AND *never* any mention of the French riot police's brutal maiming of many of the Gilets Jaunes.
So to me, simply going by the manner of western, MSM reportage (truly Orwellian) as in the past (on, for example, the Ukraine coup), never mind the close connections between the HK leaders and DC made apparent by visits of the former to the latter and with the DC HK embassy crew, we have here (as most commenters on this website recognize) your typical US-UK backed and fomented attempt at undermining and ultimately destroying (in this case) China's growing power in the region.
Posted by: AnneR | Nov 12 2019 13:38 utc | 61
I wonder at which point the owners of the enormous wealth tied up in HK's grotesque property bubble will start worrying. Those being both the local elite and local middle class, and also the large amounts of Chinese mainland money invested, all of which which must have an interest to normalise the situation. 6 months of moderate disruption, albeit with individual acts of repulsive violence, surely won't yet tumble such a huge market. At the margins though investors must start wondering where HK will emerge afterwards. Pepe Escobar seems to think cut down to size and left behind Shenzhen, Shanghai et. al.
Posted by: Leser | Nov 12 2019 13:40 utc | 62
As is so often the case, the real cause of the unrest in Hong Kong is not being reported in the mainstream corporate press.
Hong Kong is a very densely populated island with almost no natural resources. For a time, Hong Kong was the toll booth for goods made in slave-labor factories in communist China and exported to the west (Virtually everything labelled "made in Hong Kong" was not. Hong Kong itself has excellent ports but very little industry). But now mainland China does not need Hong Kong, and the benefits of its special status are slipping away.
Meanwhile the ruling authorities are jamming in ever more people - and as any fool could realize, rents are shooting up and more and more average people are essentially living in cages. I've been to Hong Kong, the people are wonderful and hardworking and the streets are safe, but increasingly life there is like being in a well-run medium security prison but with less living space. That's what the protests are about. But we can't talk about population pressure - because that would draw attention to our own elites policy of driving wages down and rents up - so the focus is all on the ephemera of minor 'democratic' rule changes...
Posted by: TG | Nov 12 2019 13:56 utc | 63
@NemesisCalling I'm sorry, but I find it disheartening that there is not one post that I can see that questions the legitimacy of this act perpetrated by the opposition protesters. You can not say for certain that this was not the work of Chinese/Hong Kong government subterfuge aimed at discrediting the opposition as barbaric. And you can not say that this would not be a sound strategy if you were at the top trying to orchestrate the messaging re: the opposition in the media and portray them as ghastly thugs.
The burning of the man has been reported by SCMP (linked in my piece) and many others who are NOT pro-Chinese government. No one doubts that these were the black clad rioters that had earlier destroyed another subway station. They had already beaten the man when he scolded them for the damage they caused. It was also not the first time the protesters behaved like this. There have been several Molotov cocktail attacks on policemen on and off duty and lost of arson in the subway and streets.
The rioters have badly beaten many civilians that disagree with them or are from the Chinese mainland. Here are four recent attacks on women: 1, 2, 3, 4.
The protests clearly follow the script of the fascist Maidan coup. They use Pepe the frog as their symbol for a reason. The invented a new hymn named "Glory to Hong Kong" that is a copy of the Ukrainian fascist hymn "Glory to Ukraine".
The organizations that run the "pro-dem" camp and the protests in Hong Kong are all recipients of USAID grants. Wong and other luminaries have met with right-wing U.S. politicians like Marco Rubio.
Nothing of the above is by chance.
@41 TDeL
That's ridiculous. Like saying North Carolina doesn't have an army. "Hong Kong is and always has been part of China."
Posted by: pasha | Nov 12 2019 14:28 utc | 65
All:
They look like disaffected adolescent gangs to me, I remember them well from Los Angeles in the 50s. Give them a little money and equipment and a little "guidance" and off you go. Something like: "Hey, let's go attack those cops!" I suppose you could even use video games for some of the "guidance". The FBI used try to do that to all the anti-war groups.
And yes, I would think you could get a lot of mileage out of such a strategy here at home too, in fact I'd say we are ripe for it. I imagine the government freaks out when they think about it, so they don't think about it.
Seems very popular all over, how many countries have this sort of thing going on at the moment? Not all of them are the deliberate work of the CIA. A lot of these places have large populations of "youth" with no prospects. Anybody with a brain knows that is not a recipe for order.
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 12 2019 14:33 utc | 66
Another quite obvious shill here [who I've been noticing for quite some time now]...
The marginal violence campaign is aimed primarily at foreign audiences, and there is no reason at all to think it isn't working.The failure of the national government to take any action is largely due to some elements' desire to keep Hong Kong as a neocolonial concession that will serve as a power base for capitalist restoration...and for the ones who think fighting the US, even for national survival, is bad for business.
So the 'protesters' violence is 'working'...?
And the government's strategy is 'failing'...?
Why does this sound like wishcasting and reality turned on its head...?
And then comes the FUD [fear, uncertainty, doubt...a disinformation strategy] laid on nice and thick...
This clown figures that 'some elements' within the Chinese power structure want to keep Hong Kong as a 'neoliberal concession'...whatever the fuck that means...
Why...?...for the upcoming 'restoration of capitalism' of course...
So glad we have these shills here who make themselves so obvious...HK is obviously a hot button for them and it is a hard pill to swallow that their Maidan-style violent street chaos has met its match in China...
The Chinese authorities realized correctly that, given enough rope, these violent punks in the employ of the rotting empire will inevitably hang themselves...
Nobody supports these punks anymore...and it is a SURE THING that the masked bandits are on the CIA payroll...
The ordinary folks swept along initially about genuine grievances have long since abandoned these Maidanistas...
I watched that video of the masked idiots attacking that cop...talk about brazen...he had to plink a couple of them...which caused a nearby truck driver [white] to come and clap his hands...his truck having been blocked and possibly also victimized by the snafu these punks created in the street...
But this clown here on the thread is too much...
I'd really love to hear more about his two main 'points'...
That the marginal violence is 'working'...
And that the CCP is planning a 'restoration of capitalism'...
Let's see what this shill's got, other than his initial FUD...
Posted by: flanbkerbandit | Nov 12 2019 14:52 utc | 67
@ Posted by: JC | Nov 11 2019 19:58 utc | 15
# https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9nNeO0yWyk
Posted by: JC | Nov 11 2019 19:58 utc | 15
The Deutsche Welle interview with "HK student leader" mz. Joey Siu is a godsend (Will violence kill Hong Kong's pro-democracy movement? | Conflict Zone): Here mz. Siu shows off her lack of mastery of even Basic English. The Cantonese they speak is also sub-standard -- and they write the local dialect characters in a completely under-educated way.
Posted by: JoveBove/區司 | Nov 12 2019 15:09 utc | 68
And then we have another shill here who takes Bernhard to task for saying this...
Hong Kong's leader Carrie Lam can and should change that by an emergency decree. Taking a thousand or more of these misguided upper class students permanently off the street would dramatically decrease the violence.
This is unacceptable editorializing in the estimation of this clown...who also btw calls B's take on the Hong Kong 'protests' a 'big IF'...
And then he tops it off with this...
Are you now an advisor to a fascistic power structure?
So the Chinese are the 'fascists' here...how very interesting...
If these clowns here are so upset about Bernhard's excellent work here, why don't they just go elsewhere...like Fox 'news' or BBC or any other of BIG LIE media...?
That would be appreciated by myself for one [and I'm sure many others]...who will no longer have to see NED shills here trying to plaster the discussion with FUD...
Posted by: flanbkerbandit | Nov 12 2019 15:17 utc | 69
Bemildred says...
Seems very popular all over, how many countries have this sort of thing going on at the moment? Not all of them are the deliberate work of the CIA.
Why not...?
Maybe you think the CIA is lacking resources...?
Or maybe they don't have the track record...?
Killing Hope: U.S. Military and C.I.A. Interventions since World War II by William Blum
Posted by: flanbkerbandit | Nov 12 2019 15:24 utc | 70
more irrational behavior this time from national governments
Posted by: snake | Nov 12 2019 15:26 utc | 71
Bemildred @66
Absolutely true that "Not all of them [protests] are the deliberate work of the CIA." But as AnneR @61 pointed out, there is a very easy and straightforward way to tell which are and which are not the CIA's handiwork. Just check which ones are being supported by the Operation Mockingbird mass media and which ones they are silent on. Protests in Haiti? Silence, so those are legit. Protests in Hong Kong? The Washington Bezos Post and New York Langley Times not only report positively on the protesters but give the supposed leaders of the protests big soapboxes to shout their message from, so obviously those protests are being managed by the same folks who manage the narratives spewed by these media orifices. The CIA advertises their product (regime change) on their own networks and uses those networks to attack the products of their competitors (international working class).
The State Department shills might try to suggest that the Operation Mockingbird mass media might try reverse psychology by supporting legit protests, but that is not really possible for them because large portions of the population still credulously swallow the mass media's whoppers without any critical analysis. Reverse psychology from the Mockingbird mass media would just confuse those in the population who are still thoroughly brainwashed. That's too dangerous at this point.
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 12 2019 15:27 utc | 72
There's also this...
United States involvement in regime change
Posted by: flanbkerbandit | Nov 12 2019 15:28 utc | 73
flankerbandit @70: Well I'm not saying I think the CIA couldn't, just I don't think they are at the moment. Certainly anyplace with an embassy, you have to assume they are keeping their hand in, keeping in practice.
snake @71: Yes, I was wondering what made the Israelis think this was a good time to attack Damascus again. They must really want that guy. And PIJ is shooting off rockets now. Again we see around 2/3 getting through.
Wm. Gruff @72: Yes, I would think that "rule of thumb" works very well, if the MSM ignores it, it's not a CIA/State plot. And if the Mighty Wurlitzer spins up, all on command in an instant, then very likely it is a CIA plot (unless it's domestic, in which case it is an FBI plot.)
Posted by: Bemildred | Nov 12 2019 15:59 utc | 74
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 12 2019 12:52 utc | 58
Thank you for the book link!
Posted by: Per/Norway | Nov 12 2019 16:22 utc | 75
"That would be appreciated by myself for one [and I'm sure many others]...who will no longer have to see NED shills here trying to plaster the discussion with FUD..."
Posted by: flanbkerbandit | Nov 12 2019 15:17 utc | 69
i agree 100%
Posted by: Per/Norway | Nov 12 2019 16:31 utc | 76
Well done, flankerbandit, Gruff, and others I'm missing, taking the shills to task.
Posted by: Sorghum | Nov 12 2019 16:36 utc | 77
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15lhSqyb8I
Slow motion frame-by-frame video senior set ablaze in Cantonese. Hope HK Police able to get the full facial ID with enhancing softwares.
JC
Posted by: JC | Nov 12 2019 16:42 utc | 78
Sorrie found the video yesterday but it was removed today!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15lhSqyb8I
But I download it and dunno how to post it here???
Posted by: JC | Nov 12 2019 16:47 utc | 79
Joshua Wong is a young man. He is not an idiot though one can say that at this point, the result he is looking for is unclear.
However, with emotions running high, I can imagine why Mr. Wong would skip on the apologetic tweet and stay on script. For one, you can not condemn any violence from your own side. The police are using all kinds of brutal tactics, and they can't allow this event to take predominance in their messaging. That is why you won't hear anything from the opposition re: this event and why this will likely be a one-off.
Meanwhile, I see no signs of these protests abating. And events such as this will provide the necessary impetus for the mainland to become involved militarily. Now you can posit that there is clear and sound reasoning for why they should violently intervene, especially by showing events such as this to the public, but that still leaves the question as to the ownership of this act and its ongoing usefulness to the pro government side.
That is the thought I am entertaining and it is not unreasonable.
Again, tying these protests to the maidan in Ukraine is I believe a tactic to discredit the protests in general. As others have mentioned, my opinion of the average Joe from Hong Kong is too high to compare them to those creatures. But it does serve the messaging of the government side well.
One can very legitimately claim that the black-clad protesters have been a sizeable gift to paint the protesters with broad strokes.
Regardless, I circle back around to b's original point that the outcome here is a foregone conclusion in that Hong Kong will be fully absorbed.
But ccp will probably have to show their hand and it will no doubt resemble other imperial actors, brutal and swift.
Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Nov 12 2019 16:47 utc | 80
@ 51 / 52 lulu... thanks...the fact this joshua wong guy doesn't commend the actions here says it all and i believe i mentioned this in my first post @2....
Posted by: james | Nov 12 2019 16:50 utc | 81
why nemesiscalling is giving joshua wong and the leaders of this movement a pass on not addressing the burning of the man doesn't look good on nemsiscalling..
Posted by: james | Nov 12 2019 16:58 utc | 83
William Gruff--
Thanks for picking up the baton & expanding on my points @23. None of this can be blamed on Bolton while exonerating Trump. Trump praises the activities of his terrorists and their minders. IMO, an eye must be kept on the Big Picture as the entire conflict is indeed global. I've never doubted my assessment that what's occurring is the Hybrid Third World War in quest of accomplishing the over 20+ year-old #1 policy goal of Full Spectrum Dominance. We've seen some tactical maneuvering that led to the digging-in of boot heels once again in places the Outlaw US Empire cannot afford to abandon in Southwest and Central Asia, all while the Class War goes into overdrive in the UK with Scottish Independence tossed in--do read Craig Murray's piece from yesterday.
The CIA and MI-6 can burn Hong Kong to the ground in their attempt to stop China from advancing but their efforts will be in vain as China doesn't need Hong Kong to succeed. However, every other nation on the planet other than Outlaw US Empire vassals is looking at what the CIA and MI-6 are doing to Hong Kong and further staying with China and Russia. And we see in varied places round the world where the commonfolk are no longer cowed by the violence and aim to either keep or regain control over their destinies. Death squad terrorists while still deadly have mostly lost their ability to sway political events. What happens in Latin America will have global implications. IMO, that will become the most important battleground of all over the next 12 months--that's where Trump's launched his Hybrid Wars on ground Obama prepared.
Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 12 2019 17:16 utc | 84
b, you're more lucid than all I've read to put together all of this. Respect.
Posted by: Admirer | Nov 12 2019 17:35 utc | 85
Wow what a barge-load of bullshit from an unprincipled clown who calls himself 'nemesiscalling'...
As James points out...this dirtball sees no problem making mealymouthed excuses for an absolutely shocking act of of violence on an innocent man...
In fact he would have us believe it is the Chinese authorities that perpetrated this crime as some kind of false flag that would 'tar' those 'righteous protesters'...
What a fucking clown...
As if we haven't seen with our own eyes the absolutely rabid instances of depraved violence from these masked bandits...over and over and over again...[B has helpfully linked to several such instances...]
The police are using all kinds of brutal tactics...
...creaks this useless clown...
Who in his right mind would characterize the unbelievable restraint shown by police in the face of orchestrated street violence as 'police brutality'...?
In the USA you get shot for driving while black...if you keep walking toward a police officer pointing a gun at you, you get the whole clip emptied into your ass...and that's without any riots going on...
Look at the way the peaceful Occupy movement was simply swept off the streets by a huge police raid...over and done with...no fuss no muss...
Look at the French police and the Yellow Vests...they are shooting tear gas canisters into people's faces...
This clown has ZERO CREDIBILITY...
And then he claims that the protests 'aren't abating'...
Bullshit...nobody is coming out other than these masked scumbags...the ordinary folks of Hong Kong have had enough of these violent dirtbags...
Also please spare us your bile about the CCP and how this is going to turn out...you are on mushrooms...everybody knows this bullshit is on its last legs...
B was gracious enough to respond to your heckling...but now you're just taking up too much bandwidth here with all your nonsense...
BTW...since I'm at it, I will also mention your pathetic hissy fit on the open thread the other day for being called a fascist...you really are a joke...
Posted by: flankerbandit | Nov 12 2019 17:42 utc | 86
@80 Nemesiscalling
/sarcasm/
Yes, yes, yes, it could be, might be, may be CCP's inside job. Since China is bad, anything bad should be, must be from China, no evidence needed.
Move on guys, nothing to see, it is just a kabuki show staged by the evil communists. End of conversation.
Posted by: d dan | Nov 12 2019 17:51 utc | 87
As stated by Nemesis: "The police are using all kinds of brutal tactics."
This is fiction and at best an excuse but more likely a classic misdirection. Based on the violence and disruption of civil life, most nations would already have begun crushing these black bloc disruptor agents quite swiftly. Observe the current body count in Baghdad. Given the amount of damage they are inflicting on the daily flow of work, I too am surprised that the local business "magnates" have not hired a posse to neutralize them. As stated above by flankerbandit, if they tried that shit in today's USA they would get destroyed. It is to their credit that the HK police and authorities have not played into the hands of the agents provocateur.
Nemesis states: "Again, tying these protests to the maidan in Ukraine is I believe a tactic to discredit the protests in general."
More pseudo excuses. Wong has met with several USA sponsored "dissidents", and this has been fed to the media to legitimize the "protests", not the other way round. As we are all aware, he has been photographed with USA state dept. politicos and is more than likely receiving funding through these channels.
It's clear that the agencies attempting to sow discord in HK would like very much for the violence to escalate, but as point out by an above commenter, they simply do not have the depth of reach with China's military apparatus. Ideally the rioting would provide cover for an insurgency as it did in Kiev, but there simply isn't enough muscle....
At the risk of restating: China can simply wait it out for the above reasons. HK is not needed in the manner it once was, and the mainland can do without so why not let the regime change operative burn it out. It's one thing to disrupt things and quite another to end up with a barren landscape in which nobody will invest.
Posted by: Chevrus | Nov 12 2019 18:21 utc | 88
NemesisCalling @80 - " tying these protests to the maidan in Ukraine is I believe a tactic to discredit the protests in general."
The protest/"pro-democracy" movement itself has been the one making this connection - explicitly. It started almost right away. Here's online mag Quartz explaining in July the points of comparison of "sister protests":
https://qz.com/1675353/why-ukrainians-are-closely-watching-hong-kongs-protests/
Here's an NGO scribe saying the same thing:
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/hong-kong-protesters-draw-inspiration-ukraines-maidan
Here's Time Magazine describing public screenings of Winter On Fire, organized by the "pro-democracy" interests:
https://time.com/5682003/winter-on-fire-hong-kong-protests-ukraine/
Most notable point-of-comparison between these "sister protests" is the unleashing of hate/aggression directed towards an identified group. Very ugly situation, IMO. The vandalized stores in Hong Kong, with attendant racist graffiti, should be understood as comparable to similar scenes from the 1930s, but this has not yet been cognitively processed by the international cheering section supporting their presumed "pro-democracy" cohorts.
Posted by: jayc | Nov 12 2019 18:22 utc | 89
The tactics being used in Hong Kong are being duplicated in Bolivia, particularly in Santa Cruz, the eastern centre of the fascist movement. And the purpose, very clearly, and as b points out also used in the Odessa arson/massacre, is sheer terrorism.
Evidently the leader of the Santa Cruz Luis Fernando Camacho boasts of his affinity with the paramilitaries of the narco terrorist Pablo Escobar
https://www.telesurenglish.net/opinion/Bolivia-in-Crosshairs-of-US-Counter-revolution. (I'm unsure about the link)
Another point of similarity is that in both Hong Kong and Bolivia students, overwhelmingly recruited from the privileged, like their strike breaking compeers at Oxbridge in 1926, are to the fore in the openly racist violence against the indigenous poor.
The imperial mask has almost disintegrated and underneath the hollow protestations of liberalism and progress the death's head of fascist terror is unmistakable.
More than five centuries have passed but the race war still rages. It is a measure of the moral bankruptcy of european civilisation that this is so: where is the outrage at the flagrant crimes exemplified in the coup against MAS? Where are the Congressional voices? The popular demonstrations? The solidarity from the pimps of identity politics?
And in Canada, where lip service to the First Nations is practised with such regularity that the whole political system floats on a pond of slobber and crocodile tears, the Liberals greet the violent overthrow of a real indigenous leader, with enthusiasm as their friends in the mining industry prepare to take another bite at the cherry that is Potosi.
Posted by: bevin | Nov 12 2019 18:29 utc | 90
@86 flanker
You struck a nerve with the mealymouthed bit. I strive to always improve as a writer. Still got some work to do.
But you failed to convince me that this one act of terrible violence should be grounds for immediate dismissal of the protests.
If nothing less, I hope my take muddles the narrative being spun here with Hong Kong. I think it is more complicated than Ukraine at the very least, and I will chide those who make such a comparison.
Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Nov 12 2019 18:33 utc | 91
As I have just pointed out on the next post about Bolivia, the Shock Doctrine referenced by William Gruff is the basic method for subversion that those who wish to attack a state use - and it is how each of the destabilizations of governments has been occurring this century.
It is outright deception to infer as many have done on this post that violence is the way forward!
I consider Occupy to have been a resounding success in the manner of the civil rights struggles of US recent history in that those protesting did not resort to violence even when their little patches of protest were outrageously attacked and overturned. That was victory for Occupy and all that consider them to have failed are entirely wrong in that. We revere Gandhi and Martin Luther King because they never supported violence. That is the only clear definition of a legitimate protest.
Colin Powell said, to his utter shame, "You break it, you own it." What do you own? A broken thing!!! Does that make you happy? Does that make for a good life?
How could it?
By their fruits, ye shall know them.
Posted by: juliania | Nov 12 2019 19:03 utc | 92
Occupy Wall Street was useful as a way to identify malcontents and allow some pressure to be released with no practical effects. Follow the money up the chain:
AdBusters--Tides--Ford---Gates---Soros.....
From what it looked like at the time, it was astroturfed right from the start...
Posted by: Chevrus | Nov 12 2019 19:28 utc | 93
The Black Bloc terrorist thugs in Hong Kong who are burning people and clubbing women and bullying the children of police officers are fascists.
Nemesiscalling is defending those fascists.
What does that make Nemesiscalling?
I reiterate my statement from yesterday on this issue where Nemesiscalling aligned itself with the fascists in Bolivia:
Nemesiscalling is a fascist.
Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 12 2019 19:55 utc | 94
Thugs coming to Sheung Shui
市民避曱瘟！The citizens flee the ‘cockroach plague’! (10/11)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXeQLX5mWVw
Posted by: Rolf | Nov 12 2019 20:05 utc | 95
Posted by: JC | Nov 12 2019 16:47 utc | 79
Someone has posted a collection of videos at
In the comments he says "Please upload evidence to either youtube, google drive or dropbox, then post a link in here. Thanks"
Posted by: A nonymous | Nov 12 2019 20:21 utc | 96
flanbkerbandit@67 says some stupid things but is under the impression vicious gives you a "win." One is about The primary purpose of the violence is to win even more foreign backing, both openly and covertly. It is not intended to somehow re-gain the masses *they've already lost!* If they wanted that, they'd protest high rents. Faced with the choice of popular support or foreign support, they have committed to earning foreign support by making Hong Kong seemingly ungovernable. The insinuation in the OP they are being foolish in pursuing tactics that will lose them mass support misreads what their strategy is. It's FUD that disorients, provoking panic and idle boasts about how marginal violence isn't achieving its aim, preferring to kill a straw man.
The other item of course is the claim some elements in China do seek a restoration of capitalism. How this is controversial is extraordinary, especially given the widespread claims that China is already capitalist and the CP is just a dictatorship. But parts of the national government want for Hong Kong to star a capitalist enclave, which is why they have been doing catch-and-release of the hard core of the protests, even now, when it has dwindled. The silly idea the national government is playing eleven dimensional chess by giving them rope to hang themselves is conclusively refuted by the simple fact they've already lost the mass support that would make Hong Kong truly ungovernable. These people cannot get millions into the street on a weekend any more, much less weekdays.
Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 12 2019 21:05 utc | 97
Evidence of paid destruction: Destroying Tsui Wah Restaurant (11/11)
Woman’s voice: «Reporters please record!»
Commander’s voice: «We still have another one to go after this Tsui Wah. … Take a hammer to smash it …. …. If it’s not done perfect, it won’t be accepted. … Ask someone to look out for ‘dogs’, otherwise you won’t get your salary.»
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf_c0JmIx-c&feature=youtu.be
Other important links:
https://blog.hiddenharmonies.org/2019/09/06/links-on-hong-kong-2019-unrest/
Posted by: Rolf | Nov 12 2019 21:36 utc | 98
Google Bildzeitung Party Joshua Wong,you will have a great choice of images where Wong meets Vitali Klitschko ,mayor of Kiev,Raed al Saleh,chief White Helmet and Mina Ahadi iranian from Austria.
Some bunch of colorrevolutionnaires!
Posted by: willie | Nov 12 2019 21:43 utc | 99
So now China is already a 'capitalist' country...?
This was discussed on the open thread and shown to be a staple of propaganda that we see in the MSM...the idea being to hitch China's economic miracle to 'capitalism'...and therefore reinforce the indoctrination that 'socialism doesn't work'...
Of course this is pretty weak bullshit that is easily shown to be false...
As stated already, the core of China's economy are the giant state owned enterprises, which control key sectors like banking, energy, armaments and of course education, healthcare and R&D...
The privately owned enterprises are mostly small and medium enterprises, of which there are thousands...but they do account for a good portion of economic activity, especially in non-strategic manufacturing, retail trade etc...
Of the few large private enterprises, the CCP makes sure that they are kept from achieving oligarchic power...each such company has a party member appointed to a post akin to an overseer...and whose powers can exceed that of the CEO...
This has been very successful...and president Xi is rolling out similar measure to rein in the rest of the private sector, namely the SMEs, with similar programs...
Corruption, tax evasion and offshoring wealth is still a problem with these SMEs and judging by its success in reigning in the big private companies, there is every reason to believe that Xi's program will be highly effective...
This useless shill here needs to understand that low-grade propaganda like 'China is capitalist' doesn't actually work on people who have scratched the surface beyond the indoctrination of the MSM...
Posted by: flankerbandit | Nov 12 2019 23:03 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
I suspect that the Chinese authorities are playing a long game strategy here. As the Protesters and their instigators reveal ever more clearly just how vile their behaviour and ethics are, the onlooking world will realize just who are the victims and who are the aggressors. Ultimately the U.S.A., U.K. and other players in trying to destabilize China via these Hong Kong riots will lose far more than they can ever hope to gain.
Posted by: Beibdnn | Nov 11 2019 17:57 utc | 1