Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 07, 2019

Syria - Trump Gives A Green Light For Another Turkish Invasion

This morning U.S. President Donald Trump has a little surprise for the Kurds in Syria:

Today, President Donald J. Trump spoke with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey by telephone. Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into Northern Syria. The United States Armed Forces will not support or be involved in the operation, and United States forces, having defeated the ISIS territorial “Caliphate,” will no longer be in the immediate area.
...
Turkey will now be responsible for all ISIS fighters in the area captured over the past two years in the wake of the defeat of the territorial “Caliphate” by the United States.

This actually is not a surprise. Trump had tried several times to remove the U.S. from Syria and was only held back by the borg. Last December then Secretary of Defense James Mattis resigned when Trump ordered the troops to leave Syria. I do not expect anything similar to happen now.

Turkey long wanted to move into the Syrian border area east of the Euphrates. It sees the YPG resistance group, with whom the U.S. allied to go after ISIS, as a threat to its country. That view is justified.


bigger

Erdogan wants to take a 30 kilometer deep strip including the M4 highway which runs west to east in that area.

But the border area Erdogan marked is quite populated with some 850,000 people living there. Most of them are Kurds.


bigger

Turkey wants to replace those Kurds with the Syrian mob that it armed and supported against the Syrian government troops. These people and their families currently live in Turkey. To move them into north Syria would be one of the largest ethnic cleansing operation the world has seen in recent times.

A saying goes "The Kurds have no friends but the mountains." But there are no mountains in Syria's north east. While the YPG might want to fight off a Turkish invasion they have little chance to succeed. The land is flat and the YPG forces only have light arms.

There is only one solution for them. They will have to call up the Syrian government and ask it to come back into the north east. That would remove the Turkish concerns and would likely prevent further Turkish moves.

The second part of Trump's statement, that Turkey will take responsibility for imprisoned ISIS fighters and families, can not be taken seriously. Those camps are far beyond the border zone Erdogan seeks.


Source: ISW - bigger

It was long predicted that the Kurds would become the biggest losers of the war on Syria. They already lost Afrin in the north west to a Turkish invasion.  Will they again resist the need to submit to the central government and repeat that mistake? One would hope that they are smarter than that but I would not bet on it.

Posted by b on October 7, 2019 at 14:33 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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It boggles the mind why the Kurds haven't turned to Assad to get a heavy Syrian government forces presence in the Northeast. That can mean only one thing. The Kurds are in on Trump's plan, are in the U.S./Israel corner and are not worried about Turkey. What other reason can there be???

Posted by: Circe | Oct 7 2019 23:37 utc | 101

@ Circe | Oct 7 2019 23:26 utc | 102

You may be correct, it's purely conjecture on my part.

I think however that Graham and Rubio only make a faint pretense of supporting Trump when it suits them, but they are only waiting for opportunity to subvert him. They don't like his appeal to populism any more than the rest of the entrenched bureaucrats. That's my take.

Not everyone who smiles is your friend.

Posted by: jared | Oct 7 2019 23:37 utc | 102

Trump is sending the Turks to a military confrontation with the kurds that may weaken and possibly break Erdoğan.
This war is not popular on turkey that is suffering from an economical crisis well hidden by the ruling party propaganda.
Trump wants to weaken Erdoğan further and makes him beg the US for support. If Turkey does not win a quick war against the kurds, it will be the end of the AKP and the end of Erdoğan

Posted by: Virgile | Oct 7 2019 23:43 utc | 103

While the dems are busy playing with their gavels,
Trump needs to make some bold steps that he can hold.

I think a unilateral and friendly resolution of the trade issues with China.

And something substantial on health care - maybe declare an emergency.

And forget about the personal tax affair - who cares?

Posted by: jared | Oct 7 2019 23:45 utc | 104

... and have Putin for tea.

Posted by: jared | Oct 7 2019 23:47 utc | 105

fake news from Stripes:
Pentagon warns Turkey not to invade Syria as Trump blasted for abandoning Kurdish partners
The Pentagon warned Turkey against a military incursion in northeastern Syrian land controlled by Kurdish forces that the United States has backed for five years in their fight against the Islamic State, the Defense Department said Monday in a statement. . .here

real news:
Immediate Release
Statement Attributable to Assistant to the Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs Mr. Jonathan Hoffman
Oct. 7, 2019

The Department of Defense made clear to Turkey - as did the President - that we do not endorse a Turkish operation in Northern Syria. The U.S. Armed Forces will not support, or be involved in any such operation.
In conversations between the Department and the Turkish military we have consistently stressed that coordination and cooperation were the best path toward security in the area. Secretary Esper and Chairman Milley reiterated to their respective Turkish counterparts that unilateral action creates risks for Turkey. As the President has stated, Turkey would be responsible, along with European nations and others, for thousands of ISIS fighters who had been captured and defeated in the campaign lead by the United States.
We will work with our other NATO allies and Coalition partners to reiterate to Turkey the possible destabilizing consequences of potential actions to Turkey, the region, and beyond. . .< a href="https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/1982590/statement-attributable-to-assistant-to-the-secretary-of-defense-for-public-affa/">here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 7 2019 23:54 utc | 106

@105 jared

I think however that Graham and Rubio only make a faint pretense of supporting Trump when it suits them

I'd say Rubio is doing that, but Graham has stuck to Trump like flypaper, even in spite of the former's long frienship with McCain, and in the face of the McCain family disgust.

Graham's loyalty to Trump at all expense makes me suspect Trump is earning it! Another point you can't readily dismiss is Trump's support for MBS AND NETANYAHOO.

I'm not buying anything Trump supporters are peddling here.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 7 2019 23:56 utc | 107

@circe98

Show me a rapture cult 'christian' or a ZioCon traitor who is happy to see a peaceful resolution to any middle east conflict or any withdrawal of US troops from the Middle East. You could try the nutty raptureready.com for their take on it. Faux news are predictable for the ZioCon response.

The 'ulterior plan' is easily explained. Trump was elected because Cambridge Analitica and other polls told him millions of Americans were sick of 'endless wars.' The rest of the world are also sick of these same endless wars. Trump thinks this move might help his re-election.

Considering the billions of US taxpayer treasure given to Israel it can't be too hard to work out just who is the parasite and who is the host.

Posted by: Paul | Oct 7 2019 23:59 utc | 108

Following up on my post @47, this article appeared in the Asia Times by Stephen Bryen. It is a pro-Zionist and pro-MIC piece but nonetheless further supports my theory of Trump impeachment and his next to impossible road ahead. It is written almost as a marching order to the congressional and Zionist operatives.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/10/article/trump-could-pay-political-price-for-betraying-kurds/

Trump has overplayed his hand on this one, albeit for the right reasons.

Posted by: Uncle Jon | Oct 8 2019 0:01 utc | 109

Allow me some licence for some light observation:

The Valkyries of the next Depression have gathered like great swarming buzzards over the thirsting corpse of our QE bloated NATO economies. Their wings half folded and preparing to swoop ready to tear off the succulent parts of over leveraged sovereign debt, the screams from US and Euro Treasuries will soon soak the air mixing with the pink mists of savagery and war. Squeals of the newly dead will fall to vampire hoard, On a far hill the most wealthy are already jostling for position on their Roman balconies as the Sabine start to get raped and plundered in the early moves to push the establishment over into the next Roman order. This is the Feasting rite of passage overdue for decades.... it's finally unfolding here.

Zooming into NE Syria, again we see CIA assets always get (literally) burned in the end - as you well know Señor PKK's. Putin will chuckle and murmur "finally!" as he sends Ergo the target lists (with "mind the school" margin notes). Erdogan will dream wistfully of Ottoman Empires of days past, but later reflect on his missing battlefield table manners to European tastes, and barely hold half for double the effort. RUS
Spetznaz will emerge like Rambo's from the swamps from the south and steam through as death scythes those Daesh foolish or unlucky not to already be on Silk Airways Battlefield Express to the next propaganda borg hosting MSM superbowl venue. "hail! - King of the North!" they sing as they reap. One more chapter of the unfolding game. As Gagan said "oil and the bullet - it's the same thing steve!"

Bankers scurry as rats seeking shelter in bloated still warm western bodies while economic plague pustules rotting flesh as anticipated Christmas cheer turns to winter chills. "safe haven" "QE4" "repos" "FED bale out" their panicked cries. No interest rates, no liquidity, no safe 10 year treasury bonds, and it dawns as the Valkyries swoop - it's a sovereign debt crisis this time -it's state assets - airports and docks, nationalised industries not regular businesses, it's countries and their banks, safe havens are few, and the balconies strain as Darby day finals, see who is crushed and who claims their scalps. "Resurrect a few Franco's to keep rebels in line", come cries from the balconies.....New lineages are being cut here, generational wealth born out of savagery that'd make hoards of Berserkers blush.

Pragmatic PKK veteran old-dog survivors return to Euroland jumping meters in vacant downtown Stores mimic the signage and rob the brand road trucks. "Send it back for the boys" justifying their hijackings. Ottomans taught them well the skills of urban survival. "Lawrence of Arabia" was heavily sanitised after-all. Synergy in living between the cracks, til the next mayhem musters homeland dreams once more.

Two houses watch from afar as the bloated fools consume each other, quietly and without chatter they continue to build their fortresses, and mark out what's owed to old 100 names, while through a lens and a glass the barflies watch their players joust.

Posted by: dennis | Oct 8 2019 0:04 utc | 110

It appears that Trump's phones are ringing off the hook as his Christian Zionist wing's leaders are calling on him to reverse course in this current Syrian situation. It is amazing how the lobby works. I would guess as some point Syrians would want 100% control over all of its territory in the future. At some point in the distant future they may achieve that goal.

The whole mishmash of political calculus is mind numbing.

Posted by: dltravers | Oct 8 2019 0:15 utc | 111

@ Uncle Jon 113
re: trump-could-pay-political-price-for-betraying-kurds/
No other president has paid a price for betraying Kurds, because few in the US care. The US Kurdish minority doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 0:16 utc | 112

@109Don Bacon

From your Defense Department quote:

The Department of Defense made clear to Turkey - as did the President - that we do not endorse a Turkish operation in Northern Syria. The U.S. Armed Forces will not support, or be involved in any such operation.

In conversations between the Department and the Turkish military we have consistently stressed that coordination and cooperation were the best path toward security in the area.

Okay, so why did b title this article: Trump Gives A Green Light For Another Turkish Invasion?

The answer is that Trump did not greenlight a Turkish invasion, but another plan that involves the Kurds, anti-Syrian government Sunni and Turkish military (still a Nato member) occupying N.E. Syria. And that's why Trump is covered on pulling out U.S. forces.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 0:17 utc | 113

I read recently that the Christian Zionists want a Jewish state which survives and occupies all of Palestine, necessary for the Second Coming.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 0:20 utc | 114

Graham went on Fox news fairly attacking Trump (his decision re. Syria). That is not support. Graham is pursuing his own interests - military and Zionism I think. He talks as if he feels we should award the Kurds their own state and then protect them. Of course he does not actually care about the Kurds they just serve his purposes.

Posted by: jared | Oct 8 2019 0:25 utc | 115

Don't blame me, I'm just the piano player.....

Erdogan's Syria Invasion Begins: Turkish Jets Filmed Bombing Kurdish Targets

The take away quote
"
Erdogan's promised Turkish military operation in northeast Syria has begun, as confirmed by regional media and video footage. On Monday night Turkish fighter jets commenced bombing the Semelka Border Crossing in far northeast Syria on the border with Iraq.

Both Hezbollah-affiliated al-Mayadeen television channel and Israeli media are also reporting Turkish jets have attacked Kurdish targets in northern Syria.
"

I think Trump's bluff has been called again

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 8 2019 0:37 utc | 116

dennis @114--

Channeling Carlos Fuentes Terra Nostra?

Don Bacon @103 & 109--

Thanks for calling out the bald-faced lies and fake news.

Above, I linked to a retweet showcasing the coordinated spin of Pelosi and Graham. Now we can add the commander of the US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces Mazlum Abdi and make the duo a trio:

"This is going to jeopardize all the achievements we've made with the coalition against ISIS."

What was the term coined for that--Triangulation, or some such. Looks like Trump versus CIA again. Currently, all Syrian sources are silent and likely asleep. Dawn will arrive in a few more hours there and then we'll see what occurs. SAA did have lots of forces massed around Aleppo that could easily head East.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 8 2019 0:37 utc | 117

@Don Bacon 116

I think you are missed the point of the article. While the Kurds were the subject of the article, the stress was really on betrayal of SA and Israel. US has no allies, whether Kurds or Germany. It is just an excuse to be used by those who know how to milk a situation for their benefit.

Example: the Uighurs in China. Do you think the west gives a rat’s ass about another Muslim enclave half way around the world? But it sure is a juicy subject to yell “human rights” by these pseudo-democratic savages to pounce on Beijing.

Posted by: Uncle Jon | Oct 8 2019 0:38 utc | 118

Everybody keeps talking about 'the Kurds' as if they were one solid entity. The YPG happen to be the ones with the guns but that doesn't mean there are plenty of ordinary Kurdish people who are happy to be Syrian or Turkish citizens.

Posted by: dh | Oct 8 2019 0:54 utc | 119

@123 Are should be aren't dammit.

Posted by: dh | Oct 8 2019 0:55 utc | 120

@ karlof1 121
Looks like Trump versus CIA again
yep
Newsweek:
Donald Trump got "rolled" by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a National Security Council source with direct knowledge of the discussions told Newsweek.

In a scheduled phone call on Sunday afternoon between President Trump and President Erdogan, Trump said he would withdraw U.S. forces from northern Syria. The phone call was scheduled after Turkey announced it was planning to invade Syria, and hours after Erdogan reinforced his army units at the Syrian-Turkish border and issued his strongest threat to launch a military incursion, according to the National Security Council official to whom Newsweek spoke on condition of anonymity. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 1:00 utc | 121

karlof1 | Oct 7 2019 18:44 utc | 49

"...a repeat of November 1963 and soon, like this November."

As for US w/d from Syria/Turk border area just to let T. in w/o interference..., perhaps a different date?...for Pres. Pence?

March 1945, FDRoosevelt died somewhat suspiciously.

FDR early 1945 gave direct orders thru OSS Donovan to OSS Archimedes Patti [going to Vietnam as highest US official there] that Patti not assist the French in any way if they try to re-occupy VN. Patti job to co-op w Ho et al to get intel to support eventual invasion of Japan and harass any Japanese troop withdrawal to Japan; also assist US flier captives, etc.

Then Truman became pres. Unknown to Patti HST at Potsdam Conf authorized DIVIDING VN [Cochin China] near Danang "only for purpose" of arranging Jap surrender SOUTH of Danang to the British [who quietly tricked Saigon leaders that it was only a formality and Mountbatten's GenGracey was allowed to enter] and Chiang's generals would enter and take J. surrender in the NORTH [Hanoi}.

Patti was w Ho when Ho declared independence using US Decl. Of Ind. as his model.

As Patti prepared to leave VN, suddenly US Liberty ships began arriving to return the French Civil Service/troops who proceeded to re-occupy entire VN later in 1945. British Gen.Gracey had disarmed the surrendering Japanese in the S., then returned their arms and ordered them to maintain order until the French could take over. Similar happened in the N.

Coincidently, HST also resp. for DIVIDING Korea after 1945, allegedly getting "agreement" with Stalin to do so. Truth was that US/HST knew USSR was crippled, "on its knees" w 24,000,000 dead and surviving population near starving and could hardly negotiate, much less resist the request.

By the way, the OSS clerk who collected Patti's papers/records for shipment to Washington was Julia McWilliams, later Julia Child of The French Chef fame on TV.

Posted by: chu teh | Oct 8 2019 1:31 utc | 122

Trump threatens Turkey; Erdogodan promises its effort in Syria is Temporary


we now have three players.. The USA, the Americans governed by the USA, and Trump..

Posted by: snake | Oct 8 2019 1:31 utc | 123

re: Posted by: Mark W. | Oct 8 2019 0:00 utc | 112

There is no mystery. For about 5 years now this site has been using standard antispam protection which only permits posts that includes a genuine extant email address. The other business is probably unconnected. If your email provider has decided that an askismet query is "unusual activity" then it must be flat out re enabling accounts.
I dunno if the protection identifies the site which instigated the query, if it does, then your email provider is one I wouldn't trust.
There are any number of work-arounds to the MoA email challenge, the easiest being an email address from a free email provider.
The alternative is having to suffer "my sister-in-laws brother earns $25,000 a minute spamming idjits . . . " posts over and over and over in here, while everyone whines at b for not keeping the site tidy.
Setting up a spam trap email addy is pretty much essential anyhow.

Posted by: A User | Oct 8 2019 1:34 utc | 124

"Coming back home" is a strategy that Trump can run on, much better than "Don't come home and protect the Kurds" and "time to punish Turkey" to the citizens. Regarding the latter, the brainiacs in the Congress should brush up on the Montreux Convention, the 1936 agreement that gives Turkey control over the Turkish Straits leading from the Med to the Black Sea, for one thing.

Trump defends Syria move: 'It's time to come back home'

President Trump on Monday dug in on his decision to pull U.S. troops out of northern Syria as Turkey prepares an operation in the region, while members of his own party lined up to criticize the move.
Speaking to reporters in the Roosevelt Room of the White House, Trump said he has "great respect" for the prominent Republicans who are urging him to reconsider his strategy but that "it's time to come back home."
"We’ve been there for many, many, many years beyond what we were supposed to be. Not fighting. Just there. Just there. And it’s time to come back home," Trump said in his first public remarks since the shift was announced late Sunday.
"But I can understand the other side of it," he continued. "But if you go by the other side, that means we should never, ever come home."
The president lamented that the most difficult aspect of his job is writing letters to the families of soldiers killed overseas. He described writing to families of soldiers killed by mines or snipers, calling it "devastating." . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 1:42 utc | 125

Those who have said there are two sorts of Kurds have been borne up in the past as stating truths. What we have had also recently has been the rapprochement of Russia, Iran, and Turkey on the non-negotionable borders of Syria. So, what I would suppose is happening here is that Russia and Syria also would be conferring with Turkey on ways to protect the border while also protecting any legitimate Kurd communities, which as b says are substantial. They know how to do this having sorted out the terrorists in their own regions. And they would allow some flexibility towards Turkey in this case having a legitimate claim against such activities threatening their own nation.

Whatever is happening in the power struggles in the US, I would hope Turkey can stay on that course.

Posted by: juliania | Oct 8 2019 1:44 utc | 126

I now think there is a serious chance that the Russians will inject themselves into the Syrian Northeast. Then the 'Kurdish Rebel Army' (YPG et al.) will just have to put up with having all these Russians sitting next to them. So Trump's noisy tweets will just function as a distraction to the Main (Russian) Show. Maybe.

Posted by: blues | Oct 8 2019 1:49 utc | 127

https://www.rt.com/news/470405-us-troops-pullout-minor-turkey/

The US has merely pulled “a very small number” of troops from northern Syria near the border of Turkey, a senior State Department official told AFP on Monday following Trump’s surprise declaration of the pullout.

“Two very small detachments” - less than 25 people - have been moved back “a very short distance,” the source continued.

“There’s no change to our military posture in the northeast” of Syria beyond that tiny troop movement, the source insisted, adding that the US still controls the airspace in the northeast region of the country - a far cry from the wholesale abandonment of the region Washington’s hawks have been wailing about all morning. Pro-war politicians from Senator Lindsay Graham to former UN ambassador Nikki Haley slammed President Trump’s “betrayal” of the Kurds, whom the US has been backing - and bankrolling - in an effort to maintain a foothold in Syria

More Lies from the WH. There is no pullout, just a pullback. Times of Israel says the same.

Posted by: sorghum | Oct 8 2019 2:02 utc | 128

Turkey wants to create a safe zone. Iran is opposed to any breach of Syria's territorial integrity. Erdo assured Iran, Turkey's presence is temporary. Temporary my ass!

Turkey is doing the U.S. a favor! Turkey will kill a bunch of Kurds it considers militants and terrorists, something the U.S. can't do because of its fake allegiance with the Kurds, but which is a necessary evil to repopulate Syria with anti-Assad refugees. They're going to set up a safe zone to repopulate anti-Assad refugees and Kurds will be forced to submit to the plan and Turkey will hold this safe zone under its military control.

So Trump comes out smelling like a rose. THIS IS CONARTIST TRUMP FOR YA! BLECH 🤮🤮🤮

If Syrian government forces backed by the Russians do not move to prevent this, then Trump, U.S, Israhell get what they wanted all along. However, ZioPutin will offer only pretence lip service to Assad and do zip.

You just don't get it or maybe it's all fine with you Trump bootlickers because U.S. forces are slipped out into Iraq not to make this look like a U.S. operation. Oh, but it is! Those refugees are loyal to SA. Trump is all in with this swindle!

The war in Syria was for nothing. Assad is losing the Golan and North East. ISRAHELL GETS GOLAN TURKEY, KSA GET NORTH EAST. End of story.

FOCK TRUMP.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 2:02 utc | 129

@130 juliania

Your point makes a lot of sense. Given the silence of Russia and Syria, the just-concluded talks that included Turkey, and the perfect cover for Trump to withdraw, combined with your reminder that Russia knows exactly how to create deconfliction zones and keep everybody from fighting - it all suggests a more clear picture yet to come, after the smoke and bluster have settled, and we can see exactly what boots have moved where on the ground, behind that smokescreen of bluster.

I've been waiting for this situation to become clear - reading and appreciating all the informed comments here, while ignoring the purely disputatious, of course - but your comment rang a bell for me, so I hope it's the right interpretation. The suggestion was also made up-thread that this was part of an arrangement for the US to withdraw, but I can't find it now.

At any rate, we shall see.

Posted by: Grieved | Oct 8 2019 2:07 utc | 130

You know the scene with all those Republicans clutching pearls and scolding Trump for abandoning the Kurds?

PURE THEATER destined for the Kurds. As if those Republicans care about Kurds! Like I stated: it's the evil necessary to bring back Syrian Opposition. All planned.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 2:14 utc | 131

The NYT and the WaPo are inconsolable. They are appealing to everybody to stop Trump on this, even the Republicans.

Posted by: vk | Oct 8 2019 2:15 utc | 132

movie time for sorghum! double bill
U.S. withdrawing troops from northern Syria
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55xdk-SaXsI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIcOfikG12s

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 2:20 utc | 133

@130 juliania

Leave Iran out of your fantasy. Iran is not on board with this. Quit throwing sugar at this bitter harvest! This is a breach of sovereignty and territory disguised as something else. You are also projecting on the Kurds to make Trump and Putin look good. It's idiotic to think the Kurds are happy with this when they are forced to heel after putting so much skin in the war.

This thread is full of delusional comments meant to hail Trump. Ugh.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 2:27 utc | 134

....intelligent / learned group commenting here....I’ll try to keep up....
This is history, rhyming the high water mark of empires. This is Ceasar, recalled from Britain to a failing empire’s capitol.
i’’m not a historian, but i often talk like an historian to my less knowledgable friends, and i am declaring first dibbs on
“”This is the high water mark of the US empire.” (Damn, i had apelling error and had to go back and correct it).
I hope future historians that i said it first.

Posted by: James Sullivan | Oct 8 2019 2:36 utc | 135

Interesting that Russian Special Forces chose this time to build a bridge across the Euphrates. Also preluded by another CIA sponsored color revolution attempt in Iraq.

Posted by: Hassaan | Oct 8 2019 2:40 utc | 136

@Don Bacon
Yes, as I posted, leaving the border area, not Syria. Show me the video of the +22 abandoned bases.
Right.

Posted by: Sorghum | Oct 8 2019 2:43 utc | 137

Here's the Facebook for Incirlik Air Base - Turkey, not far from Syria.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 2:48 utc | 138

Don, What game are you playing at? That pages showed jack and shit. I know you are stumping hard for Trump, but I meant the illegal US bases in Syria. The ones built since Trump took office. The ones the massive convoys deliver equipment and supplies to on a regular basis.

I'm all for pulling out of Syria. That isn't what we are getting here, same as 8 months ago when we were promised the same thing.

Posted by: Sorghum | Oct 8 2019 2:53 utc | 139

Below is the ending of a posting at Xinhuanet about Turkey's attacks in Syria

"
Meanwhile, the Iranian al-Alam TV said that Iran's Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif called his Turkish counterpart Mevlut Cavusoglu on Monday night, during which Zarif called for respecting Syria's sovereignty.

According to the report, Cavusoglu informed Zarif that Turkey will not undermine the Syrian sovereignty and that the Turkish military campaign will be temporary.
"

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 8 2019 3:00 utc | 140

If Assad doesn't act soon Turkey will be paving the way for 2 million or more anti-Assad refugees to settle the safe zone.

The Kurds have to choose between wider autonomy under Assad or whatever Erdogan and the U.S. have in store, and KSA will want a say to ensure power to their Sunni brethren. What a hot mess!

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 3:02 utc | 141

Found this earlier today atSnopes.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 8 2019 3:05 utc | 142

@ 146 uncle tungsten
That article backs up what I found at RT. It isn't a pull out, it's a pull back. They left the 30 mile security zone. That's it. Not Syria as a whole. Definitely not al Tanf.
This was another head fake.

Posted by: Sorghum | Oct 8 2019 3:10 utc | 143

@144 psychohistorian

Exactly who do you think is going to ensure the resettlement of 2 million Opposition Syrians into the north and protect the so-called safe zone?

You think the Iranians trust the temporary bit?

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 3:17 utc | 144

Dear Circe Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 3:17 utc | 148

I am simply reporting stuff from sources and not making any assertions about anything...can you not see the quote marks?

Get a grip

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 8 2019 3:31 utc | 145

Thanks Sorghum #143, yep its just pulling back from the Turkish border zone. Definitely no talk at the presser video that karlof1 linked about the key oil production zones. Its a test to see what Erdy and Syria and Russia might do.

Besides USA will need every trooper it can muster to 'manage' the colour revolution in Iraq. The Kurds might need some surface to air missiles or a large supply of killer drones if they are to defend the onslaught. But the Kurds might have cut a deal to withdraw entirely to northern Iraq and establish another homeland there. Time will tell.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 8 2019 3:33 utc | 146

Lemme give you a great example of U.S. and Russian loyalty towards their fighting partners: The U.S. protected and protects the Kurds in Syria against Turkey like Russia protected Hezbollah and the Iranians against Israel...NOT SO MUCH!

They only USE these suckers to protect their own interests. Take that to the bank!

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 3:36 utc | 147

Proxie fighters are proxie fighters. I don't think any one claims otherwise. They are to be used to fulfill the goals of the nation-state that sponsors them and abandoned if strategy dictates that is prudent. Hezbollah and Iran don't need Russia's protection against Israel. Israel needs USA's protection from Hezbollah and Russia. When the times comes does USA abandon their Zionist proxies...probably.

Posted by: Hassaan | Oct 8 2019 3:49 utc | 148

Turkey ready to invade Northern Syria
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG50vkWyFuA

Why is Turkey expanding its military operations in northern Syria?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lou0mfULefc

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 3:54 utc | 149

Trump does know how to make deals.

1. The impeachment problem for trump will be negated as he crushes usa domestic blocks operating within Syria. Think of it as insurance.

2. He gets to stomp on Russia and Syrias face and muddle the waters for them.

3. Trump gets to have a leverage on turkey and a happier erdogan. Sell weapons too.

4. Trump can rearrange those forces back into Iraq. Though this is risky.

5. Everyone wins (isis. Trump. Turkey) except Kurd. Russia. Syria. Throwing Kurds under the bus kills multiple birds with one throw.

6.iran will have turkey pitted against them with USA standingin the back acting innocent.

Problems.

1. Everyone will see usa forces as a real fraud. Further strengthening Iranian strength and commitments. Note I said everyone in the middle east. .

2.erdogan better do it quickly followed by agreements with Russia Syria or else there will be back lashes further down the road and potential instability close by. A kind of Yemen for turkey. Low risk short term.

3.this land will be landlocked therefore all this control of oil pple say Kurdistan is still landlocked. The oil factor is not so great here but turkey will still have to pump and refine and sell for them which may seem attractive but it is not.

4. If any of the actors feel the deals are extremely unfair and renegade on any terms being entrusted to just turkey and USA choosing, Syria will be split up eventually and destroyed just as prophesied.

Though I saw one say there is no greater time for peace. I kind of wish everyone just got it on and got it over with. Syria will be the battle field since Iran is almost untouchable now other than full military draft and still lose.

Posted by: jason | Oct 8 2019 4:00 utc | 150

This is a good thing, reported in Politico, warmonger McCain's best buddy has been put on ice --
The Humiliation of Lindsey Graham -- He traded his honor to be “relevant” as a Trump adviser. But on Syria, Trump didn’t bother to ask what he thought. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 4:15 utc | 151

It's now Dawn in Damascus, yet everything remains quiet. Why? Twitter ought to be ablaze with reports of Turkish artillery and air strike preparation for the coming incursion. But nothing. Maybe the coffee and boreks were late in delivery and everything's postponed until 9am local time, 90 minutes from now. Or, maybe something else is going to occur. 10 hour difference between here and there. If something does occur, it ought to be clear when its my coffee time. The evening hysteria here was really something else!

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 8 2019 4:33 utc | 152

Trump defends Syria troop withdrawal amid Republican backlash

Trump made the remarks during a briefing with military officials as top Republicans in Congress issue a rare rebuke of the president's position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MukQTZBdjg

Posted by: TrumpistheBestPres | Oct 8 2019 5:12 utc | 153

Trump: 'We're Leaving Syria.' Neocons Go Nuts!

President Trump has indicated that he will fulfill one of his central campaign promises - to get the US out of the endless wars in the Middle East and elsewhere. He has directed US troops to begin withdrawing from parts of northeast Syria in advance of an expected Turkish incursion into the region. Neocons screech that this will mean a comeback for ISIS and that abandoning the Kurds is treachery. They want to continue the "successful" Obama policy of eight years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OckcS7mYKsY

Posted by: TrumpistheBestPres | Oct 8 2019 7:35 utc | 154

I just want to say that it's quite possible the Turks won't give a good account of themselves against the Kurds. Aside from the possibilities of asymmetric warfare the Houthis have recently demonstrated, Erdogan has been aggressively coup-proofing his military, and they have not done very well in the past in Syria. And they do not have NATO at their back, they will be on their own. The idea that they will just go in there and have their way with things seems a bit premature.

Posted by: Bemildred | Oct 8 2019 8:40 utc | 155

Thank you Sorghum #147, Trump is on a winner. Turkey is a NATO member and surely wouldn't betray that allegiance now would it? If the army complain Trump can refer them to their duty general who sits in NATO and ask why they didn't expel such treacherous members. I heard his rambling speach and reheard it and I can say Trump has more ways than a wizard of pulling this pathetic wrestling stunt off.

Trump tested the bolt-on method and was losing votes mighty fast. Any one can see that the anti war rhetoric from Sanders and Gabbard is a winner and that it enrages the Democrat machine so much that they split the ranks in their desperate rage. Trump simply wants to be re-elected right now and all tactics are to that end.

If Turkey fricks it up: blame NATO and ask the US Army how they could let this happen then appoint his new team when embarrassed resignations roll in. Trump made it awful clear in that rambling speach that Turkey could well get dumped with all the ISIS and Al Qaeda prisoners and so too EU states where so many came from.well Plus many came from Chechnya and China. All would prefer that they die where they are!

It is a mighty tricky and dirty hand to play but he owes Turkey nothing but payback for not buying F35 scrap and then buying the Russian S400 radar missile system.

I suspect Trump has cornered all his 'enemies' in one stroke. At home he will decimate the Democrat machine and could even fracture it to Sanders advantage. Time will tell.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 8 2019 9:08 utc | 156

This is a Trump head feint to redirect the news lede away from his growing impeachment inquiry negativity.

The oil fields will remain protected under all circumstances.

For now it will be Trump the ender of endless wars battling with Trump the unconstitutional liar on all the front pages.

Meanwhile the endless wars go on unimpeded.

Posted by: donkeytale | Oct 8 2019 9:34 utc | 157

Don Bacon #155, loved that link and it reminds when SOS John Kelly gave Lindsay Graham the death stare at Scumbag McCains funeral.

Graham has the curse upon him. I trust it is infectious.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 8 2019 9:53 utc | 158

It would be interesting to see how this will play out.

Turkey has to invade/capture a relatively large area, including several cities. Sure, the Turkish army is strong enough to pull it through but we can expect strong resistance in some urban centers, leading to heavy fighting with artillery support and aerial bombardments.

How will the western media cover this war? Turkey is considered an ally and I get the feeling the US is playing for time, not seriously antagonizing Erdogan, simply waiting for the time he is out of the picture one way or another.

At he same time, I don’t think that the US media can ignore this war like they do in Yemen. Their best bet, consistent with US policy, is a neutral, “war is hell, both sides are hurting, both sides make mistakes” approach. On the other hand, the ease of blaming everything on Trump in this war is extremely tempting. Kurds can (and probably will) play the white helmets game and easily find a large Trump-hating media/audience.

I wonder how his “great and unmatched wisdom” react if (or when) the news narrative goes to “Bad Erdogan bombs one kitten orphanage after another with Trump’s blessing”.

Posted by: Erlindur | Oct 8 2019 10:18 utc | 159

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 0:20 utc | 118

Never mind, how they package it, it will be one state with equal rights for all citizens. If you follow right wing discussions in Israel it is swinging this way.
People are realists. A colonial project without military superiority is impossible.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 8 2019 10:30 utc | 160

karlof1 @156: "It's now Dawn in Damascus, yet everything remains quiet. Why?"

Pure speculation on my part, but if I were the Syrians I would keep silent on the matter until the Kurds cry for help. Years of associating with Americans have left the Kurds with a huge sense of entitlement, but that nonsense needs to go before they can be integrated into Syria's pluralist culture. The Syrians may let the Turks beat up on the Kurds for a bit until the Kurds acknowledge the reality that they cannot form a state on their own. Once they purge the childish nonsense the Americans have been feeding them and grow up, then the Syrians can come in and restore order.

Posted by: William Gruff | Oct 8 2019 10:35 utc | 161

Posted by: Erlindur | Oct 8 2019 10:18 utc | 166

There will be no war. YPG will be forced into the Syrian state. Remember that Turkey is part of the Iranian, Russian Astana talks on Syria.

What Trump announced is that plans for an independent Kurdistan in Syria are over.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 8 2019 10:54 utc | 162

If I were they Syrians I tell the Kurds to do one.. They're a nomadic bunch and ALWAYS have been... well strictly not true.. they were promised the Armenian lands and homes by a bunch of other people for doing something or other around the time of the First World War... But anyway Its no wonder the Zionists love em... cut from the same cloth.

Posted by: Carnyx | Oct 8 2019 11:02 utc | 163

@Mark Warner #76
You might note that I never said Muslim fundamentalists per se.
The 1960s and 1970s saw a lot of political changes in the Middle East. Syria: Hafez Assad ruled from 1971 onwards, but the Ba'ath party is the vehicle that brought him to power. A similar Ba'ath takeover occurred in Iraq, which led to Saddam.
The threat to the UAE and Saudi Arabia wasn't Iranian revolutionaries per se - it was the tide of Ba'athism - a mix of pan-arab and socialism.
To say that Iran doesn't have a huge role in the Middle East is incorrect though. Persia ruled that region for millenia; the threat of a Persian resurrection (fundamentalist or not) is what has historically, and rightfully, concerned Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Iran is as big as the rest of the Middle East put together - and significant parts of that rest are co-religionist albeit not the same ethnicity.
In any case, my point was simply that the Saudis - already threatened by Ba'athist regimes in Iraq and Syria - would have dialed their concern to 11 with the successful revolution in Iran. And at least from an external viewpoint, this would constitute a very understandable rationale to sign up to the petro-dollar/dollar reserve/US military protection bargain despite an embargo just a single presidential term before.

Posted by: c1ue | Oct 8 2019 11:33 utc | 164

Israel needs USA's protection from Hezbollah and Russia. When the times comes does USA abandon their Zionist proxies...probably. Posted by: Hassaan | Oct 8 2019 3:49 utc | 149

Israel doesn't need protection from Russia! There are over a million Russians living in Israel and the U.S. will never abandon Israel. Honestly, pure bunk! FYI Russia didn't sponsor Hezbollah and Iran; the Syrian government did and they were supporting Assad before Russia got in! Last I checked, Russia does not own any part of Syria or have authority to dismiss Syria's allies. There is loyalty between Hezbollah and Shia/Alawite Syrians dating way back. Russia's loyalty is with its own interests only and looking the other way when Israel attacks Syria is proof.

☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆

I'm 🤣 at those here who still think Trump is anti-war when more than ever he's supplying KSA to decimate Yemen and now has worked out a deal where Turkey will roll into Syria and pave the way militarily to resettle over 2 million Syrian Opposition refugees, maybe closer to 3.5 million. He knows perfectly well Turkey will trigger yet more war with this move and his threatening hands off Kurds tweet was laughable and pure theater. You don't settle millions of people on territory inhabited by others, gently! Just ask Zionists how much force they used to take over Palestinian territory!

Trump knows this and is very okay with igniting war between other parties for the benefit of ZUSA's interests.

Trump, anti-war, my ass!

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 12:44 utc | 165

Gruff #165

My thoughts exactly. And, it seems this will also be the opportunity for the SAA to move into Eastern Syria (South of the ‘border area’).

Posted by: SteveK9 | Oct 8 2019 13:29 utc | 166

So Trump is instigating a coup in Iraq, that could result in wider civil unrest. He's greenlighting the resettlement of millions of Syrian Opposition refugees via a Turkish military operation, he's supporting the ongoing Saudi invasion of Yemen, he's crippling Iran's economy, he's meddling in Venezuela and wants to force the theft of the West Bank on Palestinians and many of you think he's anti-war, anti-Neocon and a winner??!

It's as I've stated on other occasions, only Zionist Evangelicals and Zionuts are clinging to Trump at all cost (add Russian foreigners to the list), so I suspect that's what many here are. That's why there's so much hypocritical contradiction in the comments.

I've tackled hasbara on other sites but this is worse. At least they didn't pretend to be something else!

Posted by: Circe | Oct 8 2019 13:31 utc | 167

@ Circe _169 I agree, Trump is a vicious warrior. He knows it takes lots of military force to force millions of strange people on otherwise inhabited territory: the folks that invented Israel, used much force (WWI) to steal the Ottoman Territory (entire ME) from the Ottoman, and it took much WWII to take the Palestinian territory from the Palestinians.

Turkey is stupid if its commits its military to the Kurds chase in N. Syria; likely Turkey will end up fighting Iraq, who is containing the Kurds in Iraq (the roof top shooters shooting both sides of that uprising (as was done in Ukraine) have been discovered). Trump is".. supplying KSA because its an arms deal, even Trump knows the Houthi Yemeni will defeat anything the world tosses at them.. .and I think the Houthi may end up dividing the entire territory that was once Saudi Arabia with Iran: as the Saudi family disappears from S.A. Its the old divide them to conquer them strategy but IMO Iran will be the winner. .

Trump's anti 4 corners threat to Turkey means that if Turkey fails to chase the Kurds, Trump will implement financial warfare against Turkey cause the bankers and multi corrupt corporations in their Oligarch owners in Israel, London and Wall Street are anxious to get the Aramco IPO to happen.

Posted by: snake | Oct 8 2019 13:40 utc | 168

It is inexplicably the you think 'the Kurds are the biggest losers of the war' etc. when all of the supposed losses are Turkish land aquisitions. Damascus has lost 20 golans to Erdogan's jihadists thanks to Sochi-Astana and its August 2016 predecessor which drew down Erdogan's Aleppo forces for the acquisition of Euphrates Shield. The partition map Erdogan waves around was printed by a Hezbollah paper over two years ago.

Posted by: Mark | Oct 8 2019 13:56 utc | 169

The lesson demonstrated over and over again over the last 100 years, but seemingly never learned:

Relations with neighboring powers are more important than relations with enemies of neighboring powers.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Oct 8 2019 14:19 utc | 170

The troll farms are hard at work, as usual any time the Deep State gets itself in a frenzy. How many posts has Circe made in this thread?

I think there are a lot of smoke and mirrors being operated in this issue. I don't think everything is what it seems to be. Trump is making it seem like an impulsive and unplanned move, but I think there have been negotiations, coordination and agreement with the Russians (perhaps also ultimata from the Russians, such as a no-fly zone), and probably a few weeks preparations. Bolton's ousting is probably linked.

One clue is the Russian bridge-building over the Euphrates. Why now, and why don't they worry it will be immediately destroyed (again) by the Americans as soon as it nears completion? There seem to be a lot of SAA and Russian troops massing near Deir Izzor. There are also a lot of SAA in Aleppo, though they ought to be required for keeping Idleb under control, I should have thought. Manbij was also mentioned.

I suspect the arrangement is for the Russians to smoothly take over North-East Syria from the Americans, and that the Turkish invasion threat is predominently threat to put pressure on the Kurds to comply - i.e. that the Turkish invasion may not happen (or only in part), unless the Kurds provide too much resistance to the new order (under this scenario the invasion is planned as a fallback, therefore it could really happen, but would be dependent on how things unfold and the plan would be that it ought to be avoided).

The Impeachmentgate saga provides for good timing: the two issues compete for media/politicians' attention, reducing pressures on each and causing disarray. It would also help explain the multiple contradictions in reports of whether it is a minor pull-back from the border or a major pull-out. Even Trump's statement was somewhat contradictory and unclear on this matter (cf. control of ISIS prisoners).

Whether the US will try to hold on to the oil installations remains to be seen, but clearly that would be a losing strategy if they are already pulling out from the rest of the area - the more they reduce their presence, the more emphatically unviable a remaining presence on the oil installations becomes.

The Arab tribal groups who are very dissatisfied under the Kurds will likely play an important role, and some reallignment may have been negotiated. Considering virtually all the Kurdish population is concentrated near Turkey within the area threatened with occupation by Turkey, the Russians and SAA may be able to take control of the much larger Arab area (much of which is flat and much also desert) quite quickly, especially if the Arabs assist. Many of the Kurdish forces in the Arab districts may rush back to their home towns to help defend their families.

Posted by: BM | Oct 8 2019 14:37 utc | 171

Once the refugees are resettled in Syria, who pays for their upkeep?

Assad will be blamed for letting his people starve?

Propaganda win by feeding them? And further reason to remain in Syria?

Bonus: ISIS fighters released from prison to fight again.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 8 2019 15:04 utc | 172

"Trump had tried several times to remove the U.S. from Syria and was only held back by the borg."

It's good to see some long-overdue analytic daylight peering out from between Trump and the Borg. Thus we can infer that, while perhaps not perfectly discrete and no doubt sharing overlaps, Trump is attempting to exert and establish an autonomy which is anathema to practically every power interest in America. The analog is JFK and the Bay of Pigs, though for the sake of Trump's mission, let's not try to stretch that analogy too far. Go Trump and God speed.

Posted by: FSD | Oct 8 2019 16:09 utc | 173

@ FSD 177
Trump is attempting to exert and establish an autonomy which is anathema to practically every power interest in America.
Yes, and there is still a semblance of democracy which is restraining, added to dealing with the vast powers of the Pentagon, CIA etc. and the prez can't just do everything he wants to do plus he must cater to these factions to some extent.
I make the comparison to Jimmy Carter, another outsider, who didn't get a thing done because of the enmity in his own party. At least Trump hasn't had much of that.
Meanwhile Trump (1) isn't Hillary, (2) hasn't sent 70K troops to the other side of the world nor started new wars (Obama) and (3) has finally withdrawn from Syria, ditching some warmongers in the process.

War is the scourge of humanity and we should be thankful that there's a little less of it, and less than we would have gotten from the War-Queen.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 16:56 utc | 174

Circe -

Some evangelicals are now starting to go against President Bone-Spurs. Televangelist Pat Robertson is worried about the Syriac Christian villages in NE Syria within Erdogan's proclaimed 30km buffer zone. Robertson is saying that Trump will "lose the mandate of heaven". The TFSA/TSO jihadis that Erdogan sends in have burned down churches in the past and will again. Erdogan's jihadists are already lining up at the border. When the rape and pillage starts Erdo's defense will be that it was not the Turkish Army that did it, only Syrians against Syrians. Although many of his TFSA/TSO seem to speak Arabic with North African or Gulf accents.

Posted by: mike | Oct 8 2019 16:58 utc | 175

Thank you Grieved, and somebody @166 - I don't think 'the Kurds' are going anywhere, but the militant Kurds are the present problem, both for Erdogan and Assad. That's the problem the US is withdrawing from, and about time. The Russians had the same problem with the Chechans - a civilian population in each city of the region that was tired of the violence, but a cadre of militants, small and increasingly smaller, that had no other course to follow since they knew they were marked as violent instigators. The weeding out process was slow, but it had to be done.

Times past Erdogan had permitted violent Kurds to seek haven across his border. Maybe he couldn't stop them; maybe he didn't want to since the US was supposedly an ally in all sorts of deals. I think no longer. Once he realized he was part of the spoils of war, he decided it was in his interests and the interests of his country to solidify the border. So, the violent ones are trapped. Maybe they will escape, but not in his direction if he can help it.

And those two million 'opposition Syrians' that Circe is pointing to - fine, they can be opposition and go back to their homes. Conditions for safe living are being put there, they don't have to support Assad. As long as they are not violent, and they must not be since Turkey has been giving them safe harbor. Sure, some may be originally part of the 'overthrow' movement, but the violent ones have to be weeded out and dealt with. That is going to be the process for all refugees from violence all over the world. Difficult but not impossible as Russia has shown. Ethnic entities can thrive in countries where they have set their roots, with crossborder contacts, in peaceful times.

It's not a slam dunk but it is a win win. Countries actually benefit from having diverse ethnic populations.

Posted by: juliania | Oct 8 2019 17:08 utc | 176

juliania | Oct 8 2019 17:08 utc | 178

" Ethnic entities can thrive in countries where they have set their roots, with crossborder contacts, in peaceful times.
It's not a slam dunk but it is a win win. Countries actually benefit from having diverse ethnic populations."

Sorry, naiveté turns into fals information. Ethnic groups cannot thrive where the enforced basic law is that they loose their identity. Which is the case for all Kurds in Turkey and in Syria. Have you ever been in the Near East? And the approach of the YPG is so dangerous for all powers that be there that it must be forbidden, in Turkey and Iran for sure, may be they can achieve minor rights in Syria. The charisma, the radiation, of it is so dangerous for Erdogan that he must keep Demirtas, the leader of the HDP, in jail. He is quite popular especially in the younger generation and with women of all political fractions.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Oct 8 2019 17:28 utc | 177

Pentagon already trying to walk back Trump's withdrawal - calls it re-positioning of troops.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/admin-officials-already-trying-walk-back-trumps-syria-withdrawal

Posted by: Mischi | Oct 8 2019 17:29 utc | 178

Juliania, actually diverse ethnic populations was a major cause of WW2 and one of the reasons that the Nazis found so much support in other countries. No, I don't think it's a good thing at all.

Posted by: Mischi | Oct 8 2019 17:30 utc | 179

FSD @175, Don Bacon @176

TDS is complemented by the Trump apologists.

I've written about how these phenomena are associated with faux populist political model.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

We are controlled by a number of clever devices that everyone likes to ignore:

> "Democracy Works!" propaganda (you MUST participate in the scam!);

> faux populist leader model (visionary outsider!);

> lesser evil voting;

> money in politics.


PS Not an exhaustive list.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 8 2019 17:37 utc | 180

@178 juliania

I really like this point you're making, and your illustrations, about weeding out the bad from the good - it's a key nuance we haven't had much room for in this noise-saturated thread so far.

I agree with you that ethnic diversity can be a strength in a country, so long as it happens within the rule of law and the safeguards of peace that you imply.

Posted by: Grieved | Oct 8 2019 18:30 utc | 181

@ 176 Don Bacon

"TDS is complemented by the Trump apologists."

Perhaps the apologias are obliged to sound more 'apologetic' than they would otherwise, due to the unhinged and relentless force of the derangees. The latter are being whipped to a froth by the engines of manufactured consent.

So we must pick the least imperfect side, Don. Panaceas are the stuff of discussion boards. Trump's supreme threat to the system is not a conspiracy narrative imagining. We need only look to the myriad power centers hellbent on derailing his Presidency every day, in every way. I hope you're not questioning the provenance or attributing the disapproval to some sort of elaborate misdirectional kabuki theater?

http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=129436


Posted by: FSD | Oct 8 2019 18:33 utc | 182

Grieved, ethnic diversity is never a strength to any country. It's a major issue in many countries which cannot form stable governments and a major cause of civil wars throughout history and the world. It's the government's way of trying to break the solidarity that exists among citizens so they can control their own destiny. No wonder it is being touted by globalists who exist only to feed the appetite of the 1%.

Posted by: Mischi | Oct 8 2019 18:33 utc | 183

@173 BM - "How many posts has Circe made in this thread?"

I doubt if anyone has the strength to count, it all ran into one long banshee wail.

There were others too, in this fog of war - the howl of that poster should not excuse all these others. It's a shame that people waste their time on them and give them recognition - but oh well, I guess we are all still learning the tricks of the tricksters.

The thread is twice as long as it might have been if it had been formed of the MoA comments that people actually come to this discussion for. Apropos my comment before this one, the commenters here who love to argue rather than to work towards a consensus of agreement, would not constitute the strength of diversity but the chaos of discord. If the Russians were on the job, they would be weeded out.

Posted by: Grieved | Oct 8 2019 18:37 utc | 184

@ 176 Don Bacon

"TDS is complemented by the Trump apologists."

Perhaps the apologias are obliged to sound more 'apologetic' than they would otherwise, due to the unhinged and relentless force of the derangees. The latter are being whipped to a froth by the engines of manufactured consent.

So we must pick the least imperfect side, Don. Panaceas are the stuff of discussion boards. Trump's supreme threat to the system is not a conspiracy narrative imagining. We need only look to the myriad power centers hellbent on derailing his Presidency every day, in every way. I hope you're not questioning the provenance or attributing the disapproval to some sort of elaborate misdirectional kabuki theater?

http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=129436

Posted by: FSD | Oct 8 2019 18:44 utc | 185

@ FSD 186
I didn't say that.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 8 2019 18:50 utc | 186

As this fall we have inaugurated "Wistleblowers Season"...here he comes Stve MacGurk spilling the beans...

Thread:

https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1181289254279766016

Second: the United States did not partner with SDF over realistic alternatives. Both Obama and Trump developed and considered options to work with the Turkey-backed opposition, which is unfortunately riddled with extremists, many tied to al Qaeda.

Fourth: It was the Trump administration that dramatically expanded the Syria mission in 2018 beyond ISIS to include staying on the ground until Iran left Syria and the civil war was resolved (meaning many years). Another example of maximalist objectives for a minimalist POTUS.

Posted by: Elora Danan | Oct 8 2019 18:51 utc | 187

BM @ 177

We are in agreement. Trump plots his Syrian moves in conjunction w Putin, erdo and get the Netanyahoo.

And timed to throw the impeachment inquiry off the scent. However, this wont work. Few Amerikkkans care abt Syria. More are into the impeachment inquiry each day.

Posted by: donkeytale | Oct 8 2019 19:01 utc | 188

The "withdrawal" in fact only consisted on moving around 50 people from one point to another in the near surrounding.
The video available on the "withdrawal" fits almost exactly with this number of people..

The Russians so far has not been warned about the "withdrawal", thus, they do not believe it is happening at all.

This in an electoral move by Trump to spread squid ink over the impeachment issue.

Posted by: Elora Danan | Oct 8 2019 19:39 utc | 189

It is not good for any POTUS to retire troops (or try it) from any conflict (as for example JFK and his plans to phased withdrawal from Vietnam), the Praetorian Guard is watching:

"Caesar!, Cave Idus Martiae!" (Plutarch),

"Quousque tandem abutere, Trump, patientia nostra!" (CIA)

Posted by: DFC | Oct 8 2019 19:43 utc | 190

Gee, it's still mostly quiet in Syria, Why? By now the kebabs have been consumed and everyone's getting ready to bed for the night. Twitters quiet with little to report. I really liked what BM wrote @173. I consider it my duty to point out that Juan Cole has adopted the Pelosi/Graham line along with others, which really tempts me to label him a pseudoscholar:

"Washington’s crusade against Iran and Russia (in the latter case with the exception of Trump) is irrelevant to this move, which is mainly about the Kurds and America’s further betrayal of them after they defeated ISIL for us."

The Kurds defeating Daesh is a massive howler, thus my epithet.

As for the Outlaw US Empire troop redeployment, it amazes me that so many think this can be done as quickly as snapping fingers, wiggling a nose, or crossing arms across the chest then blinking hard and nodding at the same time. I'll go a bit further than BM and say the whole charade is a contrivance to do two things: 1, Force the Kurds to negotiate with Damascus; and 2, provide a face-saving method for Trump to remove his illegally deployed troops. Some rather funny stuff's been said by Trump in that regards: I'll destroy Turkey's--my partner's--economy like I did before if they go overboard is but one. Another outcome is the unmasking of some politicos as far more hawkish than they've portrayed themselves while exposing their fealty to the Current Oligarchy.

Will tomorrow see the non-invasion invasion become an invasion; or will we be treated to something like the Phoney War period of WW2? I'm sure events are occurring in Idlib, but even those aren't being reported. Indeed, all I can find are these two reports, here about Deir Ezzor, and here about Manbij.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 8 2019 19:49 utc | 191

Good spotting Elora Danan #188, I wonder if McGurk was the author of the policy he cites in that fourth point. The thing is that Presidents can test out strategies and if they fail to deliver then they can revise or discard same.

McGurk is one of that band of obsessives that wont tolerate reversal whereas Trump is part of that band of obsessives that keep their eye on the prize.

McGurk and Bolt-on must be waking every morning to terrible stress, as are most borg scum.

Get a grip Circe, the yankees are clearing 20 kilometer strip so that Trump can look like a peacemaker. A minimalist hero would you believe. Fake amateur wrestling.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 8 2019 19:52 utc | 192

trump is not using this to blot out the impeachment issue, he is using the syria move as leverage in negotiations with the people who want to make impeachment an issue. regardless of whether or not american's care or don't care about syria bs, drop the impeachment issue pms and further diving into horse manure feinting details.

whether he is anti war or pro war can be grouped the same way.

try to talk about the real issues/decisions, not on the individual.

US might withdraw but is leaving it in much more of a mess when US decided not to hand over security to syria army. does it mean he is pro war or anti war. who gives a flying snot about pragmatic solutions, lets talk about pro war and anti war of an individual. not.

Posted by: jason | Oct 8 2019 20:04 utc | 193

Correction BM @ 173

And FWIW I dont agree w you about Circe. Nor Grieved who prefers groupthink (aka blog comment thread consensus, no matter the ME consensus has been consistently wrong as Circe, myself and a few truth seeking others have pointed out since it became apparent to all but the kool aid drinkers - rightwinger Putin is allied with fellow fascists Trump, Erdo, Nutty and MbS and not their scourge as previously groupthought.

Posted by: donkeytale | Oct 8 2019 20:10 utc | 194

The Commander in Chief of the SDF, Mazlum Abdi: "We are considering a partnership with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, with the aim of fighting against the Turkish forces."

Turkey in which side it is? Seems to be playing two sides...

Posted by: Elora Danan | Oct 8 2019 20:20 utc | 195

donkeytale @195--

IMO you need some edification time spent reading the items at the following links, here and here.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 8 2019 20:20 utc | 196

The United States eliminates Turkey from the "Intelligence, Surveillance and Recognition" programs and the "Joint Air Force Command." These two programs for joint operations and information exchange are key to the control and knowledge of the Syrian area.

Thus, whose program is going to use Turkey in his operation?

Posted by: Elora Danan | Oct 8 2019 20:22 utc | 197

Good spotting Elora Danan #188, I wonder if McGurk was the author of the policy he cites in that fourth point. The thing is that Presidents can test out strategies and if they fail to deliver then they can revise or discard same.

McGurk is one of that band of obsessives that wont tolerate reversal whereas Trump is part of that band of obsessives that keep their eye on the prize.

McGurk and Bolt-on must be waking every morning to terrible stress, as are most borg scum.

Get a grip Circe, the yankees are clearing 20 kilometer strip so that Trump can look like a peacemaker. A minimalist hero would you believe. Fake amateur wrestling.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 8 2019 20:24 utc | 198

Who cares about Kurdish or Turkish treachery. In month or so another reality wave will break over the heads of the Democrat machine when Barr commences action against the fabricators of the Russia influence hoax. While the Democrats hold absurd impeachment kabuki in Congress, the perpetrators of that transparent hoax will be humbly stripped before a court or two.

Right now Barr and chief investigator Durham are in Rome getting the Mifsud evidence. Remember Joe Mifsud, the orchestrator of the fake Trump dossier humbug that was written by MI6 operative Steele, backed by the UK and Australian governments and all at the behest and payment from the DNC and promoted by CIA Brennan. Conspiracy to destroy the President's family, candidacy and Presidential authority.

Trump might be huffing in Syria today but tomorrow a much emboldened Trump will be bashing the DNC machinery and its camp dogs in the main arena at home.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 8 2019 20:42 utc | 199

Posted by: Hausmeister | Oct 8 2019 17:28 utc | 179

Hey you sound like Erdogan talking about Turkish identity robbed by Germany :-))

Fact is that Kurdish people did vote for Erdogan and may vote for him again. Identity is a complex issue but main rule is that people should be able to choose for themselves.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 8 2019 20:48 utc | 200

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