Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 21, 2019
U.S. Ships More Air Defense Systems That Do Not Work To Saudi Arabia

The Washington Post notices Russia's offer to sell its air defense systems to Saudi Arabia. It does not like that:

The attack on Saudi Arabian oil facilities last weekend were a disaster for both Riyadh and Washington, with weapons allegedly made in Iran circumventing expensive U.S. missile defense systems.

But in Moscow, news of the attack was greeted as yet another chance to mock the United States and its allies — all while extolling the virtues of Russia’s own missile defense technology.

“We still remember the fantastic U.S. missiles that failed to hit a target more than a year ago, while now the brilliant U.S. air defense systems could not repel an attack,” Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova told a briefing on Friday. “These are all links in a chain.”

The Yemeni attack on Saudi oil installations caused serious damage (more photos). In Abqaiq at least five of nine stabilization columns were destroyed. These are needed to make crude oil transportable. The three phase separators that separate the fluids into gas, oil and water were likewise eliminated. Most of the gas storage tanks at Abqaiq were penetrated.


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Some 5,000 additional workers are now racing to repair the damage. It will still take weeks if not months to get everything up and running again.

Saudi Arabia had to delay oil deliveries to Asian customers. Some will receive heavy oil grades instead of the light sweet crude they ordered. Deliveries to Bahrain were halted completely. Deliveries to Saudi refineries were cut. Saudi Arabia bought additional gasoline and kerosene from the international markets as its own refineries received less crude oil than needed. Saudi citizens report of a lack of gasoline and a video shows long queues in front of a local gas station.

The air defenses surrounding Abqaiq proved to be ineffective. That may have been because they were shut off. But it is doubtful that the systems, even if they had been on alert, would have made any difference.

The U.S. made Patriot system in question was built as an air defense system against fighter jets. It was later upgraded to give it some capability against ballistic missiles. But even its latest iteration is not capable of defeating smaller drones or low flying cruise missiles.

While the Washington Post writer recognizes that the Patriot system can cover only one third of the horizon and fails to detect smaller low flying objects he still asserts that it is better than the systems Russia makes:

While Russia’s S-400 system may have impressive specifications on paper, many analysts are cautious in their assessment of it. It has not been fully tested in real life, whereas the Patriot system successfully intercepted missiles during both the Gulf War and the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

The "successfully intercepted" link goes to the a site named missiledefenseadvocacy.org which is obviously a lobby organization to promote U.S. air defense systems. Its description of the Patriot includes these two claims:

During the Gulf War, U.S. Patriot batteries brought down at least 11 enemy missiles and other Patriot batteries deployed in defense of Israel’s major cities intercepted numerous incoming missiles as well.

During Operation Iraqi Freedom, U.S. Patriot batteries intercepted a total of nine enemy tactical ballistic missiles. One notable intercept occurred on March 23, 2003 when Iraqi forces launched an Ababil-100 tactical ballistic missile (TBM) at coalition forces in Kuwait. The TBM was destroyed by a Patriot system protecting over 4,000 Soldiers and the Aviation Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division.

There is serious doubt that those numbers are true. Besides that the number of hits does not say anything about the system unless one also knows the number of missiles it failed to engage. After the first Gulf war Congress investigated the issue and concluded:

The Patriot missile system was not the spectacular success in the Persian Gulf War that the American public was led to believe. There is little evidence to prove that the Patriot hit more than a few Scud missiles launched by Iraq during the Gulf War, and there are some doubts about even these engagements.

During the first Gulf war the Patriot system had a systemic software problem that made them incapable of hitting the targets:

On February 25, 1991, during the Gulf War, an American Patriot Missile battery in Dharan, Saudi Arabia, failed to track and intercept an incoming Iraqi Scud missile. The Scud struck an American Army barracks, killing 28 soldiers and injuring around 100 other people. A report of the General Accounting office, GAO/IMTEC-92-26, entitled Patriot Missile Defense: Software Problem Led to System Failure at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia reported on the cause of the failure. It turns out that the cause was an inaccurate calculation of the time since boot due to computer arithmetic errors. Specifically, the time in tenths of second as measured by the system's internal clock was multiplied by 1/10 to produce the time in seconds. This calculation was performed using a 24 bit fixed point register. In particular, the value 1/10, which has a non-terminating binary expansion, was chopped at 24 bits after the radix point. The small chopping error, when multiplied by the large number giving the time in tenths of a second, led to a significant error.

Twelve years later, during the war on Iraq, the Patriots also failed:

The 32nd Army Air and Missile Defense Command, which is charged with protecting U.S. ground forces from air and missile attacks, recently released its account of “Operation Iraqi Freedom.” As part of that history, the command reports that the Patriot missile defense system, which is designed to destroy short- and medium-range ballistic missiles, scored a perfect nine for nine in intercepting Iraqi missiles. Colonel Charles Anderson, chief of staff of the command, wrote, “The critics concerns over Patriot lethality should be forever silenced.”

Yet Iraq fired at least 23 ballistic and cruise missiles, according to the report, during the three-week span it took U.S. forces to fight their way to Baghdad and topple Saddam Hussein’s regime.

Nine out of more than twenty three is better than zero but not a great record. But the Patriots also achieved two hits on fighter planes. Unfortunately those were the wrong ones:

A US Navy fighter has been shot down over Iraq by a Patriot missile in the second friendly-fire incident involving the weapon.

The F-18 Hornet from the carrier Kitty Hawk went missing on Wednesday night during a bombing mission. The incident follows the shooting down of an RAF Tornado GR4 by a Patriot as it returned to base in Kuwait, with the loss of its two-man crew.

In 2017 the Saudis fired Patriot missiles against Yemeni ballistic missiles that were launched at Riyadh. All of them failed to hit their targets:

[M]y colleagues at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies and I closely examined two different missile attacks on Saudi Arabia from November and December 2017.

In both cases, we found that it is very unlikely the missiles were shot down, despite officials’ statements to the contrary.

The Patriot system does not work. It is one of those typical U.S. big ticket items that enrich the owners of the defense industry but are of little combat value. 

The U.S. is now sending more soldiers to Saudi Arabia with more Patriot systems and additional Terminal High Attitude Area Defense, or THAAD, systems. Neither of these can protect against drones or cruise missiles like those that were used in the attack on Abqaiq. The whole operation is useless security theater.

When the U.S. attacked Syria with 105 cruise missiles the Russian equipped Syrian army managed to shoot down 71 of them. The cruise missiles that got through were aimed at undefended targets.

The Russian base in Syria was attacked several times by swarms of drones. All were taken down by either electronic countermeasures or by short range air defense systems. The long range S-400 have not been engaged yet because no situation required their use.

What Saudi Arabia needs is a layered defense systems similar to the one Syria deploys. It requires point defense systems like Pantsyr-S1 and medium range defense systems like the BUK-2. Long range defense systems like the S-400 can be added to protect against high flying bombers and against ballistic missiles. Electronic countermeasures like the Krasuhka-4 system can be added to suppress radio commanded missiles and drones.

No western country can provide such a modern layered system. If the Saudis really want to defend their country they will have to buy the Russian stuff. But the U.S. is unlikely to allow that.

That makes it more likely that the Saudis will accept the ceasefire the Yemeni Houthi have just offered to them (machine translation):

In a speech marking the fifth anniversary of the September 21 revolution, President of the Supreme Political Council Mehdi Mashat launched a peace initiative in which he called on all parties from all sides of the war to seriously engage in serious and genuine negotiations leading to a comprehensive national reconciliation that does not exclude anyone from injecting blood. In the interest of the remaining bonds of brotherhood and to overcome the higher national interests.

He announced the cessation of the targeting of Saudi territory by flying planes, ballistic missiles, wings and all forms of targeting.

"We are waiting for the same or better greetings in a similar announcement to stop all forms of targeting and aerial bombardment of our Yemeni territory and reserve the right to respond if this initiative is not met," he said.

We will have to wait to see how the Saudi clown prince reacts to that offer. If he rejects it the Houthi will surely remind him that his oil exporting desert country is a target rich environment.

Comments

Upward redistribution of wealth under the “capitalist” system continues apace. by: KC @ 42.. <=there is a good article over at unz.com on that today; it suggest the problem lie in external to the nation state controlled and manipulated money supply <=capitalism transitions to Economic Zionism when government ceases to deny monopolies to exist within the economic space. Instead government acts a king and appoints and promotes a few competitors as its feudal lord partners. In that case, capitalism ceases to exist. The government:feudal partnership imposes by rule of law, use of physical force, methods of privatization, unconscionable propaganda, and rape the public of its pocket change wealth by issuing government contracts and by promoting and stabilizing, and forcing the feudal partners into most favored positions of power (monopoly powers). EZ is a philosophy of greed as opposed to competition. EZ takes no prisoners, EZ allows no competition, EZ destroys all resources it cannot own or control and EZ refuses to recognize human rights as legitimate. I predict that Americans will soon demand the USA return to competitive capitalism because the problems listed in the Haaretz article (below) for Saudi Arabia could equally well apply to the EZ infected USA. MBS <= oil to technology Vision 2030 costly, <=dynastic family rule incompatible w/technology savvy middle class <= abusive human rights + no rule of law driving capital and expats away<=no IPO (8.27.2019) b/c c/n disclose. Partisan Guy @ 130 published the entire thing..

Posted by: snake | Sep 22 2019 4:52 utc | 101

vk @ 79
Aramco flop: Beginning of the end for Crown Prince MBS’ new Saudi Arabia
The Saudi reversal on the decision to sell shares in oil giant Aramco highlights all the flaws in MBS’ reform drive
| Opinion
8-27-18
By David Rosenberg
Offering shares in in Saudi Aramco wasn’t a critical part of the kingdom’s ambitious economic reform plans. But the ensuing muddle captured all its over-the-top zeitgeist.
Aramco is the world’s largest oil producer, and heir apparent Prince Mohammed Bin Salman, or MBS, the man leading the reform drive, was confident it was worth $2 trillion, twice Apple’s valuation. The IPO would be the biggest in history and the world’s leading stock exchanges were competing for the privilege of the listing.
Even U.S. President Donald Trump weighed in with a call for Aramco to choose to float stock in New York. Armies of foreign investment bankers and lawyers were put to work on the offering.
Now, as Reuters reported on Wednesday, the IPO has been halted.
Well, not quite halted but delayed, according to an official government statement. But read between the lines: “The government remains committed to the IPO of Saudi Aramco at a time of its own choosing when conditions are optimum.”
That’s “forget it,” as Sir Humphrey of “Yes, Minister” would say.
We’ve got more newsletters we think you’ll find interesting.
And with that, we have the other and more important part of the zeitgeist of MBS’s “Vision 2030” plan for transforming Saudi Arabia from the world’s gas pump into an economy on the cutting edge of technology and innovation, or at least one where the average Saudi has to work for a living rather than relying on government handouts and sinecures.
Secrets and cold calculations
The Aramco IPO had been put off repeatedly since it was first announced in 2016 for the same reasons that MBS’s big plans for the kingdom are doomed to failure.
The old guard at Aramco and in the government didn’t want to disclose as much information about the secretive company as the New York and London exchanges were insisting on. MSB reportedly was fixed on the prestige of a $2 trillion valuation rather than thinking about cold calculations of the market.
What’s become evident is that Vision 2030 is not the daring and transformative process that MBS and the glitzy marketing campaign surrounding it have promised. Like beauty, it’s skin-deep,
MBS is correct in seeing the need to get Saudi Arabia off its oil fix.
Trump is still convinced the 20th century isn’t over and that coal and oil will keep fueling us forever, but MBS understands the world is moving on. He is investing in solar power at home and in companies like Tesla (maybe) abroad.
At home, the goal is to create a flourishing private sector independent of petroleum that can provide jobs and create wealth.
But MBS has two problems. The short-term one is that he is trying to finance this transition at a time when oil prices are low, which has left the country running huge budget deficits (this year something like 7% of GDP). The Aramco IPO was supposed to help pay some of Vision 2030’s bills. Running deficits would be okay as an investment in the future if Vision 2030 was going to work, but the odds are stacked against it.
MBS’ vision of an economy of innovative, educated Saudis and the dynastic rule of the al-Saud family are a complete mismatch. MBS has shown not the slightest inkling of ceding any royal prerogatives — least of all his own — of absolute rule. Indeed, tolerance of dissent has diminished, as evidenced by the arrest of female activists and the threat of imposing the death sentence on one.
Better be grateful
Yes, MBS is letting women drive for the first time and has made some other gentle social reforms. But the modus operandi is that of the ruler bestowing gifts on his people, who’d better be grateful, rather than a process where Saudi society decides through an open process of debate.
MBS’ other problem is that Saudi Arabia doesn’t have the human capital to pull off an economic revolution.
The angry reaction to Canada’s mild critique of the kingdom’s human rights record, detaining the Lebanese prime minister for two weeks, the campaign against Qatar and the nasty war in Yemen and the roundup of businessmen last year on corruption charges tells foreign and Saudi investors that little has really changed in the kingdom. They can’t assume there is any rule of law and that their capital is safe.
The World Economic Forum’s Human Capital Report ranks Saudi Arabia 87th in the world, a notch behind Egypt, which isn’t exactly Silicon Nile Valley. It’s not that the kingdom wants for money to educate its population, but Saudis have gotten too used to the idea that real work is performed by expatriates. The idea that they will be leading and founding innovative, transformative business is hard to imagine.
Despite some tentative moves to encourage free enterprise, like the kingdom’s first-ever bankruptcy law, Saudi Arabia remains a lousy place to do business and a hopeless one when it comes to high-tech and innovation.
All the money and all the marketing has created a global cheerleading squad of bankers, consultants, economists, analysts and even journalists who sell the MBS reform story. But the country is suffering capital flight and expats are leaving. The people in Saudi Arabia, its subjects and its giant expat workforce, know better.

Posted by: pogohere | Sep 22 2019 5:16 utc | 102

Saudi Aramco IPO simply can’t happen before 2021.
With a US Presidential Election in 2020 the is too much uncertainty in the market to allow for an IPO when they might have a new less sympathetic patron in the White House in the near future.
So not before 2021.
Sorry MBS….
Also, that happens to be the same time at which Trump might seriously consider military action against Iran.
He’s not going to launch a war in the Persian Gulf that crashes the economy in the year running up to his potential re-election!!

Posted by: Julian | Sep 22 2019 5:17 utc | 103

Posted by: snake | Sep 22 2019 4:52 utc | 105 who wants us to believe in Economic Zionism
The West has a structural problem with its social contract having private finance at its core but there is no proof that I have seen that the owners of global private finance in the West are Zionists…but we have plenty of trolls at MoA that go on and on about how Zionism and Jewish folk are to blame for society’s problems.
Get a grip folks and understand that if you kill all the jews like Hitler was trying to do you still will have global private finance as the core element of the West form of social organization owned by who knows who.
Humanity of the West needs to deal with our social contract that allows some undefined cult of folks to own all the pieces of global private finance.
DON’T go after the people that come and go over centuries.
DO demand that the tools finance be public utilities owned by consortiums of civilization states
Hate of others that commenter snake and others continually write about is a misdirected dead end in this regard….or purposeful misdirection/obfuscation…..and entirely OT to this thread.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 22 2019 5:27 utc | 104

Absolutely spot on psychohistorian 108, the target is all those with big buckets of wealth regardless of their racial or religious affiliation.
A tobin tax on all concentrations of idle wealth. Active wealth perhaps can be taxed on a progressive basis defined by its application – higher tax for non socially beneficial applications and less for socially beneficial. Confiscation of all wealth by those investing in war instruments. Or something like that.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 22 2019 5:50 utc | 105

Parisian Guy 99
I think you are right. As the reporters had named the location as Khurais, that is where I had been looking.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 22 2019 5:57 utc | 106

Great information. One more info on S-400. It DOES track and engage cruise missiles.
It tracks very low objects, including helicopters, drones and small craft. Because it spans the huge range
in distance of observable objects — and tracks 40 simultaneously — it is really not needed unless
there is a large scale attack with different objects. It all depends what is being defended,
and from what.
What puzzles me is the radar. Why are radars so blind? It makes no sense. If the attack
came from Iran, and it did not stray into Kuwait or Iraq — then it passed within 100 miles from
Manama, the home of Fifth Fleet. It sounds impossible to me that such activity would not raise
alarm. If they i deed are blind — our assets are sitting ducks. The only defense these assets
have is the belief that nobody will dare attack them. And then come Houthis -/
proverbial Babe in the Woods.
As much as I benefit from reading article, reading comments is just as much educatiknal and fun.

Posted by: Bianca | Sep 22 2019 5:57 utc | 107

Comic Relief!!!!
Iran versus sanction is a nice short video demonstrating how it’s being done that will put a smile on your face!

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 22 2019 6:34 utc | 108

Norwegian 4

I don’t think steel rusts that quickly in the desert.>/blockquote>I don’t think that’s rust. I suspect that’s primer paint, needed to make the protective paint adhere to the metal. You can see where the top layer of paint has burned off, exposing what is under it. I’m not sure that it’s not rust, but it looks like the primer used repainting my nephew’s truck. By the way, not all deserts are as dry as the one where Boeing is parking its grounded planes. Desert survival courses in the Army teach collecting condensation at night to prolong survival.

Posted by: Procopius | Sep 22 2019 6:52 utc | 109

As relations between the Syrian regime and Russia develop with the signing of scientific, economic and cultural agreements, Syrians from all walks of life are signing up for Russian language courses in regime-controlled parts of the country. Opportunities to learn and develop Russian in Syria range from contests like the “Russian Olympics” to universities and private courses offered by associations such as Al-Wafi.
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2019/09/syrians-learning-russian.html

Posted by: asmus | Sep 22 2019 6:55 utc | 110

For the first time #Iran will holds an exhibition of hunted/captured drones in Tehran from September 22 to October 7.
https://twitter.com/A7_Mirza/status/1174065806520573955

Posted by: asmus | Sep 22 2019 6:59 utc | 111

A new Insider poll found just 13% of respondents would back the US military joining or supporting Saudi Arabia in a conflict following an attack on two major Saudi oil facilities. A significant portion of Americans – roughly one in four – believe the US should remove itself entirely from the affairs of the region and let Saudi Arabia handle its issues itself. The Trump administration has blamed the attack on Iran, which comes amid broader tensions linked to economic sanctions, and there are fears of another conflict in the Middle East is on the horizon.
https://www.businessinsider.nl/13-percent-americans-support-us-military-response-saudi-oil-attack-2019-9/

Posted by: asmus | Sep 22 2019 7:01 utc | 112

@karlof1 #112
‘Ducking’ sanctions vs. Iran
A little more comic relief.

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Sep 22 2019 7:25 utc | 114

The junior US diplomats’ journal Foreign Polcy dot com is currently running a series of articles about an event that occurred back in the late 70’s during the period of the Carter administration.
I’m not entirely sure why they are running Blast From the Past” an examination of how and why the Carter Administration sought to conceal, then distort the evidence that Israel had exploded a nuclear device about 1000kms off the coast of South Africa, maybe because there is a belief that US junior diplomats cannot obfuscate a story they know to be correct – or maybe it is just another example of US public administration’s desire to disentangle US foreign policy goals from Israel’s goals.
I dunno but it makes a good read as an example of how the US tries to sell one story to usains while having to concede another story (the truth) to those who live outside the 24/7/365 100% coverage of the borg. Of course the net has made this task infinitely more difficult.
I dunno – all I know is that I recall this particular incident just as I recall that everyone I knew had arrived at the conclusion israel had indeed detonated a nuke.
It is a classic study of the deceitful nature of the US and why just like england US officials can be depended on to never tell the truth.
Scientists were hand picked because they could be lent upon – as soon as these hand picked ‘scientists’ came up with the lie, Carter and co pulled out the stops in their attempt to close the story down. Not just because they wanted to aid the zionists – altho that was a big part of it, but they also wanted to conceal the fact that despite the kazillions that had been spent on nuke detection, the US still couldn’t pin point exactly where a nuclear explosion had occurred.

Posted by: A User | Sep 22 2019 7:42 utc | 115

karlof1 | Sep 22 2019 6:34 utc | 112
More than a smile; a belly laugh…
Thanks.

Posted by: V | Sep 22 2019 8:08 utc | 116

@113 Procopius
So now we have several competing hypotheses pointing in totally different directions. One (@4) is that this hole is old and rusty (unrelated to the attack). Second, the rust is due to oxidation from localized and intense fire caused by the attack (Gaianne @12). Third, the attack removed the paint but not the underlying primer that happens to look like rust, just like on his nephew’s truck (Procopius @113).
I am yet to be convinced and stay with number one.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 22 2019 8:17 utc | 117

@ Patroklos | Sep 21 2019 22:02 utc | 50
A subtle change in direction can be observed at institutions of higher learning. Back in the 1960’s the direction was of specialisation, where academics were learning more and more of less and less. Today that is changed, academics are now learning less and less about more and more. Where will it all end?

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Sep 22 2019 8:27 utc | 118

Norwegian
Some places it is definite rust. Fire fighting water would most likely be saline as all KSA water comes from desalination plants. But there also appears to be a brown stain, perhaps from explosives residue, but it could also be due to the water used. A lot of water comes up with the oil and has to be separated out. They may use this for firefighting. Reporters were given the chaperoned tour about five days after the event, so a bit of time for a coating of salt water rust.
In saying that, the stain seems to be too localised around blast damage to have been from the water.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 22 2019 8:58 utc | 119

Troops (or “boots on the ground”) cannot substitute for second rate hardware. That was proven in Napoleon’s time. The Hegemon’s bluff has been called and the Emperor has no clothes. The sentient part of the world, that counts, has noticed this.

Posted by: cdvision | Sep 22 2019 9:50 utc | 120

The Hegemon’s bluff has been called and the Emperor has no clothes. The sentient part of the world, that counts, has noticed this.
Posted by: cdvision | Sep 22 2019 9:50 utc | 121
Indeed it has. Impotence is ever more apparent and impossible to hide; a dying Empire is a pyrotechnic wonder as it goes down…
The collateral damage is the thing that must be managed by those sentient ones remaining…
Far from an easy task.

Posted by: V | Sep 22 2019 11:01 utc | 121

“We will have to wait to see how the Saudi clown prince reacts to that offer. If he rejects it the Houthi will surely remind him that his oil exporting desert country is a target rich environment.”
It would appear MBS is unwilling to yield and has doubled down with new strikes on Yemen:
https://southfront.org/saudi-led-coalition-conducts-dozens-of-airstrikes-on-yemen-despite-recent-peace-initiative/
KSA Desalination Plants or Royal Palace next?
I hope the Houthis think of providing some proof or video footage of the launch next time to throw in Pompeo et al.’s face a few days after they’ve accused Iran again..

Posted by: EtTuBrute | Sep 22 2019 11:12 utc | 122

The notion that Aramco IPO “isn’t needed” is more than a little suspicious.
Saudi Arabia has been bleeding economically for years – a 15% shortfall is extremely impressive. While they have lots of money per capita in an absolute sense, the distribution makes the US seem almost communist.
There were cross-the-board subsidy cuts in 2017 that were immensely unpopular.
Between the Yemen conflict, low oil prices and the still huge subsidies for Saudi citizens, the Saudi economy is nowhere as strong as its leadership would like everyone to think.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 22 2019 11:21 utc | 123

At no 22 Lochearn
Salute brother, been there too.

Posted by: Den lille Abe | Sep 22 2019 11:57 utc | 124

No, contrary to their custom, I think the houthis cannot provide a video footage of the launch of the drones against the oil plants in KSA, as they always do. I think in this case it is too dangerous to the people who launched them…
The queen of the targets is Ras Tanura oil terminal, there you could smash an oil treatment plant, a huge oil storage and the main exporting oil hub of the kingdom, but I suspect it is much more well protected than the others.
KSA should sign a peacy treaty with the houthis soon, because the risk of unrest inside due the discontent of the population (shia and sunni); to increase the bet attacking Iran will be a disaster and it will means the end of the rule of the house of Saud in Arabia

Posted by: DFC | Sep 22 2019 12:02 utc | 125

90
It started with 100,000bpd in yuan back in November for six months,I presume as a pilot test of the payment system outside of SWIFT. I’m told its now 6000,000bpd in yuan.
The sales in euros I got from the same source in the City, he hasn’t been wrong in many years now.He says the current REPO problems started by the Saudis removing their US bank deposits,
other foreign states have now joined in.The ECB just killed their USD carry traders under the new LTRO rules

Posted by: winston2 | Sep 22 2019 12:16 utc | 126

Typo ,sorry, 600,000 bpd.
B we need an edit function please, us old farts have trouble finding our reading glasses.

Posted by: winston2 | Sep 22 2019 12:23 utc | 127

Posted by: winston2 | Sep 22 2019 12:23 utc | 128
There is the “Preview” tab, before you post; and then an “Edit” tab; try it sometime…

Posted by: V | Sep 22 2019 12:27 utc | 128

According to John Bolton, “everyone in the White House” had agreed to attack Iran in retaliation for the downed drone before Trump got cold feet. Really, everyone? If this is true, then it suggests that Trump doesn’t even have a single voice of reason among his advisers. I had thought that the story about being prepared to strike was a face-saving lie, but Bolton’s claims suggest that it was actually true.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/18/bolton-trump-foreign-policy-1501932

Posted by: Timothy Hagios | Sep 22 2019 12:29 utc | 129

@ Peter AU 1 | Sep 22 2019 8:58 utc | 120
As you’ve already stated, clean and unprotected surfaces of iron are highly susceptible to oxidation.
Besides water-based extinguishing agents CHNO explosives itself yield a significant amount of water along with other highly reactive oxidants such as NOx.
The brownish remnants are more likely to be a combination of FeII/FeIII-oxides (scale) that are being created when iron is being forged, or, more broadly, is being exposed to high stress thus creating a local hotspot in a oxidant-rich environment.
The image at the top of the Bloomberg article isn’t showing damage done by a shaped charge or an EFP penetrator, these look differently. The hole doesn’t show signs of an ultra high speed impact (hydrodynamic displacement), it is too wide for a shaped charge jet or EFP and lacks circular regularity. Something has hit and penetrated the surface, maybe it’s been a chunk of the attacking missile itself or a piece of on-site equipment.

Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 22 2019 12:33 utc | 130

@ Paul Bogdanich | Sep 22 2019 1:56 utc | 82
You’re quite right.
WW@ radar controlled .50 cal see>
“The Cannons on the B-29 Bomber Were a Mid-Century Engineering Masterpiece” in Popular Mechanics… Similar systems were ground or ground vehicle mounted.
I think MIT was involved in the development stage for the first design of a polar directed radar controlled .50 BMG
The Saudis were probably sleeping…anyway they were not looking or there was some procedural flaw. Oftentimes is dictatorships they keep the ammo locked up – as they fear their own forces.

Posted by: Walter | Sep 22 2019 12:39 utc | 131

@ winston2 | Sep 22 2019 12:16 utc | 127
Oh ho, if true this spells big troubles approaching rapidly.
Thanks for the heads up, I knew about the oil-yuan agreement from last November but didn’t follow further developments.

Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 22 2019 12:39 utc | 132

Concerning Aramco IPO, there is something I do not understand. Allegedly, the goal is to reduce dependence of The Kingdom on oil exports, and the method is to sell stock of the national oil company instead. Ultimately, instead of profits being the state property, the state will get revenue by taxing the company, and/or taxing oil export as it is done in Russia (and other countries, I presume). But the state budget would depend on oil to the same extend as before, isn’t it?

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 22 2019 13:46 utc | 133

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 21 2019 18:13 utc | 4
That could be heat-scorched steel, not rust?

Posted by: Barovsky | Sep 22 2019 14:12 utc | 134

Re Saudi oil output:
Unless they’re cooking the books (and with connivance of the int’l ‘community’) it’s currently at almost 10 million barrels a day, but it goes up and down like a yo-yo (Nov ’18 it was over 11ml barrels), so all this talk of them scraping the barrel, would appear to be false and it undermines a lot of the theories floating around here (and elsewhere).
See: https://ycharts.com/indicators/saudi_arabia_crude_oil_production

Posted by: Barovsky | Sep 22 2019 14:22 utc | 135

Piotr Berman: @134: The idea with the IPO is to raise cash. IPOs are always about raising cash. Then with that cash, see, MbS is going to turn Saudi Barbaria into a sort of Wahabbi Hi-Tech Israel but still totally under his autocratic control. Like a big sandy Saudi Israel.
And they do seem to have a considerable problem with not having enough cash lately. You go blowing billions on toys and status symbols that can happen.
Personally, I think the oil fields just are not what they used to be.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 22 2019 14:23 utc | 136

Posted by: EtTuBrute | Sep 22 2019 11:12 utc | 123
I hope the Houthis think of providing some proof or video footage of the launch next time to throw in Pompeo et al.’s face a few days after they’ve accused Iran again..
But a video of a launch, or launches, proves nothing, except that something was launched, maybe but who knows what at or when and by whom?

Posted by: Barovsky | Sep 22 2019 14:27 utc | 137

@ Posted by: Parisian Guy | Sep 22 2019 3:53 utc | 100/ @ Posted by: pogohere | Sep 22 2019 5:16 utc | 103
Thanks.
Now, the joke of the week for your amusement:
Israeli Iron Dome system needed for Saudi defense
–//–
@ Posted by: snake | Sep 22 2019 4:52 utc | 102
The return to “competition” won’t solve capitalism’s structural problems. That’s because competition doesn’t create wealth; what creates wealth is one thing and one thing only: human labor. It is the working class, not the capitalist class, that creates all wealth in the world.
It’s a myth competition ceases to exist in the monopolic phase of capitalism. It continues to exist, the difference being that this competition happens intra, not inter, capitalists, that is, between sectors of production and circulation, and not between different capitals of the same sector. This is facilitated by the fact that, in late capitalism, capital is completely mobile (the dominance of public companies over private ones).
In either case, what determines progress (investment) is the profit rate. In competition between monopolies, direct competition happens over market shares, but it only appears as such because profit rates of monopolies is naturally lower than that of small and medium businesses in the early age of capitalism.
Elizabeth Warren’s plan of breaking up big business will fail if she’s to become POTUS in 2020.
–//–
@ Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 22 2019 13:46 utc | 134
That’s because MbS possibly believes in an economic “theory” called “dependency theory” (I only know the name of the theory from Portuguese, not sure how it is exactly called in English).
This “dependency theory” states that Third World countries can become First World countries by reaping the benefits of the high prices phase of the commodity cycle. When this phase happens, if the target Third World country saves the excess profits from higher commodity prices it exports to the First World countries, it can use this extra money-capital to buy machinery and other infrastructure and know-how necessary to industrialize.
But the “dependency theory” is a fallacy because commodities are the fruit of a low capital intensive production process. A First World country can implement technological revolutions and evolutions in order to increase the aggregate value of its exports because they are the industrial powers. A Third World country can only expand or retract its production, because commodities are always the same. And, since they are always the same, that makes their demand inelastic or completely dependent on the dynamics of the industrial powers (i.e. the First World).
For example: a Third World country exports only wheat to a First World country. Wheat prices spike up because of the commodities cycle, thus rising the exporter country’s trade balance with the importer to rise. If, as a result, wheat production rises because of that, prices will lower, because demand for wheat is inelastic (a country only consumes a certain quantity of wheat, assuming stationary population and technology). Prices will go down, ending the high tide of the commodity cycle, eating up all the surplus from the previous spike.
That’s why Third World countries that bowed down to the USA and Europe during the post-war period never became developed countries. Only China — which did the polar opposite of neoliberalism by following the path of socialism — broke out from this vicious cycle. That also explains why Russia is the only Third World country nowadays that has a resemblance of a robust high tech industry (in the military sector): during much of the post-war period, it was insulated from this Third World-First World destructive dynamic because it was the Soviet Union; the eight years of “shock therapy” of the 1990s destroyed much of it, but not all, of Russia’s industry.

Posted by: vk | Sep 22 2019 15:10 utc | 138

Walter@132
The Saudis had Oerlikon twin 35mm that are radar controlled at Abqaiq. It is an older system but has been upgraded several times, the last upgrade AFAIK was in 2010. About three dozen countries use the system. The mystery is why they were not used. Perhaps turned off, or the operators were asleep? Or perhaps the system was abandoned for safety reasons because of the range accident in South African when the system killed nine and injured another 14? But the South Africans used an older radar for control, the Fledemaus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_GDF#Skyguard

Posted by: mike | Sep 22 2019 15:16 utc | 139

Found this little gem in an obscure blog (from 28 August 2018, but still valid to our times). .. I highly recommend. vk @ 80.
https://voiceofthemarkets.blogspot.com/2018/08/impractical-saudi-aramco-ipo-comes-to.html
afaik K. Salman scotched the original MBS grand plan sell-off of parts or Aramco, as ‘dangerous.’
vk .. there’s a link to a Haaretz pay walled article. If someone has access to it, please copy and paste..
From April 2018.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-aramco-flop-end-crown-prince-mbs-new-saudi-arabia-1.6410912
– > works for me (Switz – free, no pay); says little.
excerpt. Even U.S. President Donald Trump weighed in with a call for Aramco to choose to float stock in New York. Armies of foreign investment bankers and lawyers were put to work on the offering.
What happens with fossil fuels is of no. 1. importance.

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 22 2019 15:30 utc | 140

Piotr Berman@134 – Saudi crude profitability has been plummeting for decades – a fact well known to petroleum engineers but rabidly obscured by the al Sauds and ARAMCO. The lift costs ($ to get out of the ground) is a simple, outdated measure but still used by people to describe the Saudi’s ‘lowest production cost on earth’ at around $10/bbl. Magic math might produce this number over the last 50 years, but the actual cost of producing a new barrel of Saudi oil at ARAMCO today is estimated to be well over $30/bbl. Every new barrel they pull out of the ground today cost more than the last one. An occasional heavy, sour crude deposit ‘discovery’ in the kingdom will never change that.
The alleged Vision 2030 goals will cost a fortune and most of it will be financed by debt. Debt backed by their preposterous claims of impossible future oil profit, which banks/investors are dumb enough to believe. You stated one of the tricks they’re using: “… the state will get revenue by taxing the company, and/or taxing oil export…” Of course they will tax it, but they’re not doing that right this minute (it’s good to be king) and have not announced specific plans to do so. That’s pretty much ignored in the prospectus.
Overvaluing the ARAMCO IPO by an order of magnitude 1) generates desperately needed cash, and 2) propagates the myth of ARAMCO’s future profitability which supports their perceived good credit and reduces the cost of their debt, and 3) allows the Saudi government to ‘double dip’ on debt (sovereign and ARAMCO).
“But the state budget would depend on oil to the same extend as before, isn’t it?”
The Saudi state budget (and ARAMCO profitability) depends more and more on cost and availability of debt today than crude export. Everyone rips off the Saudis and they’re really, REALLY bad investors. The al Saud fortunes are a myth – they’ve used ARAMCO for their personal piggy bank for years. Even the MbS shakedown was a bust. The time for the al Sauds to have shifted out of a dependency on oil income has long gone and they’ve borrowed against it.
The Saudi’s ARAMCO IPO is as futile as a working man trying to diversify out of the sale of their labor for income – after they’re a half-million in debt for their McMansion, $100,000 in debt for the SUV and monster pickup truck -and- have all their credit cards maxed out. At best, they can maintain their current lifestyle. If they want MOAR, then they need more sucker bankers.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Sep 22 2019 15:31 utc | 141

As requested by VK, here is the paywalled Haaretz article.
27 Aug 2018
Opinion Aramco Flop: Beginning of the End for Crown Prince MBS’ New Saudi Arabia
The Saudi reversal on the decision to sell shares in oil giant Aramco highlights all the flaws in MBS’ reform drive
Offering shares in in Saudi Aramco wasn’t a critical part of the kingdom’s ambitious economic reform plans. But the ensuing muddle captured all its over-the-top zeitgeist.
Aramco is the world’s largest oil producer, and heir apparent Prince Mohammed Bin Salman, or MBS, the man leading the reform drive, was confident it was worth $2 trillion, twice Apple’s valuation. The IPO would be the biggest in history and the world’s leading stock exchanges were competing for the privilege of the listing.
Even U.S. President Donald Trump weighed in with a call for Aramco to choose to float stock in New York. Armies of foreign investment bankers and lawyers were put to work on the offering.
Update: Saudi Reforms to Boost Growth Despite Any Aramco IPO Delay, Reports IMF
Now, as Reuters reported on Wednesday, the IPO has been halted.
Well, not quite halted but delayed, according to an official government statement. But read between the lines: “The government remains committed to the IPO of Saudi Aramco at a time of its own choosing when conditions are optimum.”
That’s “forget it,” as Sir Humphrey of “Yes, Minister” would say.
And with that, we have the other and more important part of the zeitgeist of MBS’s “Vision 2030” plan for transforming Saudi Arabia from the world’s gas pump into an economy on the cutting edge of technology and innovation, or at least one where the average Saudi has to work for a living rather than relying on government handouts and sinecures.
Secrets and cold calculations
The Aramco IPO had been put off repeatedly since it was first announced in 2016 for the same reasons that MBS’s big plans for the kingdom are doomed to failure.
The old guard at Aramco and in the government didn’t want to disclose as much information about the secretive company as the New York and London exchanges were insisting on. MSB reportedly was fixed on the prestige of a $2 trillion valuation rather than thinking about cold calculations of the market.
What’s become evident is that Vision 2030 is not the daring and transformative process that MBS and the glitzy marketing campaign surrounding it have promised. Like beauty, it’s skin-deep,
MBS is correct in seeing the need to get Saudi Arabia off its oil fix.
Trump is still convinced the 20th century isn’t over and that coal and oil will keep fueling us forever, but MBS understands the world is moving on. He is investing in solar power at home and in companies like Tesla (maybe) abroad.
At home, the goal is to create a flourishing private sector independent of petroleum that can provide jobs and create wealth.
But MBS has two problems. The short-term one is that he is trying to finance this transition at a time when oil prices are low, which has left the country running huge budget deficits (this year something like 7% of GDP). The Aramco IPO was supposed to help pay some of Vision 2030’s bills. Running deficits would be okay as an investment in the future if Vision 2030 was going to work, but the odds are stacked against it.
MBS’ vision of an economy of innovative, educated Saudis and the dynastic rule of the al-Saud family are a complete mismatch. MBS has shown not the slightest inkling of ceding any royal prerogatives — least of all his own — of absolute rule. Indeed, tolerance of dissent has diminished, as evidenced by the arrest of female activists and the threat of imposing the death sentence on one.
Better be grateful
Yes, MBS is letting women drive for the first time and has made some other gentle social reforms. But the modus operandi is that of the ruler bestowing gifts on his people, who’d better be grateful, rather than a process where Saudi society decides through an open process of debate.
MBS’ other problem is that Saudi Arabia doesn’t have the human capital to pull off an economic revolution.
The angry reaction to Canada’s mild critique of the kingdom’s human rights record, detaining the Lebanese prime minister for two weeks, the campaign against Qatar and the nasty war in Yemen and the roundup of businessmen last year on corruption charges tells foreign and Saudi investors that little has really changed in the kingdom. They can’t assume there is any rule of law and that their capital is safe.
The World Economic Forum’s Human Capital Report ranks Saudi Arabia 87th in the world, a notch behind Egypt, which isn’t exactly Silicon Nile Valley. It’s not that the kingdom wants for money to educate its population, but Saudis have gotten too used to the idea that real work is performed by expatriates. The idea that they will be leading and founding innovative, transformative business is hard to imagine.
Despite some tentative moves to encourage free enterprise, like the kingdom’s first-ever bankruptcy law, Saudi Arabia remains a lousy place to do business and a hopeless one when it comes to high-tech and innovation.
All the money and all the marketing has created a global cheerleading squad of bankers, consultants, economists, analysts and even journalists who sell the MBS reform story. But the country is suffering capital flight and expats are leaving. The people in Saudi Arabia, its subjects and its giant expat workforce, know better.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-aramco-flop-end-crown-prince-mbs-new-saudi-arabia-1.6410912

Posted by: voiceofthemarkets | Sep 22 2019 16:05 utc | 142

Right on queue:
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/09/article/us-could-deploy-israels-iron-dome-to-saudis/
Can they be anymore transparent.

Posted by: Uncle Jon | Sep 22 2019 17:40 utc | 143

PavewayIV @142–
An excellent example of Colin Campbell’s reasoning that went into his Peak Oil hypothesizing–the remaining hydrocarbons will continue to get ever more expensive to extract until a point is reached where it costs more to energy and money to extract the hydrocarbons than the energy they provide. That’s exactly what’s happening with the fracked oil patch and bitumen sources. In reality, there’s a vast amount of hydrocarbons available to be extracted, but the oil price required to do so is @3x the current $64/bbl for Brent, thus the attractiveness of NatGas. What’s quickly fading from the oil market are the grades of light/sweet that most refineries were tuned to utilize. Within the Outlaw US Empire, the preferred choice is to operate the refinery until it blows up as their feedstocks dwindle and operational costs rise beyond profitability. EIA figures will show increasing imports of finished product as we move forward.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 22 2019 18:03 utc | 144

Hmpf
Thanks. Corrosive residues from the explosive would cover some of the stains I have been wondering about. I did a little reading on corrosion from crude oil a few days back. Hydrogen sulfide being the major compound plus other compounds in smaller amounts. 18% chrome, 8% nickel alloy (a stainless grade) is very resistant to hydrogen sulfide so this most likely the alloy used in the stabilizer columns, though I have seen patches of the reddish stain on the alloy. Patches of corrosive residue from explosive may cover the stain I have noticed on some columns near to the blast area.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 22 2019 19:51 utc | 145

@Uncle Jon 144
I doubt what this “Asia Times” paper says.
1) we can guess that’s an Israeli point of view
2) The claim of effectiveness against low-flying UAV is a joke. Rafael claims that, but its video demonstrates nothing.
3) It seems that Iron Dome is really less expensive, and better performing, than Patriot. Nevertheless, since it is equally ineffective against low-flying UAV, I doubt the US would deploy Iron Dome because the only effect would be to give to Israel the revenue of that arms sale, without helping the Saudi defenses.
The key for an effective defense against low-flying UAV is AWACS.
Saudis own several AWACS, as my country (which is France) do. But I remember that when we bought AWACS from US, we did not bought the processing software, only the hardware (radar and plane). It may be that US refused to sell the software. In any case we developped our own software (I vaguely knew one of the engineer, by that time). My hypothesis is that Saudis doesn’t have more than the most basic, and poorly efficient, software in their AWACS.
Software is critical. Without top-of-the-art signal processing, you cannot discriminate the low-flying object from the background clutter.

Posted by: Parisian Guy | Sep 22 2019 19:56 utc | 146

Hmpf
A pic of the stain on a stabiliser column. Obvious rust on low alloy and carbon steel fittings, but the column itself appears to be a stainless grade, likely the 18% chrome, 8% nickle or very similar.
https://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2019/09/20/20/AFP-1KG5E5.jpg?width=1000&height=614&fit=bounds&format=pjpg&auto=webp&quality=70&crop=16:9,offset-y0.5
My thought is the grade would be designed to resist the corrosive compounds in the crude it is designed to process, but different corrosive compounds in the explosive residue, perhaps combined with with the firefighting water have caused light corrosion.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 22 2019 20:54 utc | 147

@winston2
Thanks for the very meaningful tips!
Thus, that means that in order to know what’s your actual source, we need to firstly debunk the pretended one ;=)
Well, there was announcement in 2018 of oil sales in yuan, then the news disappeared, as if the project was not actually running. You are saying that it does. And the news had been suppressed from medias?
The most interesting tip is the one which links repo and arabia; You probably have read the one or two papers in zerohedge, saying the repo probleme plausibly indicated that trust in borrowers had disappeared. This came very suddenly, right after the Houthi’s attack, as if both events had some cause-effect relationship. So your tip perfectly supports the hypothesis. Thanks!

Posted by: Parisian Guy | Sep 23 2019 0:54 utc | 148

Posted by: A User | Sep 22 2019 7:42 utc | 116
Re SA nuclear blast, see:
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/nuclear-vault/2019-09-22/vela-flash-forty-years-ago

Posted by: Barovsky | Sep 23 2019 10:43 utc | 149

‘There are Navy families in Bahrain, for example, women and children, who would object to being incinerated by Iran missiles.’
Bringing your family to one of those middle eastern shitholes is just irresponsible parenting.

Posted by: Fred | Sep 23 2019 10:50 utc | 150

Does American air defense “not work” or was in facing in the wrong direction, looking for the wrong threat?
As for that, what threat really got it, Houthi, Iran, false flag (and whose)?

Posted by: Mark Thomason | Sep 23 2019 11:26 utc | 151

@ Peter AU 1 | Sep 22 2019 20:54 utc | 148
Yep, this is true for a standard state reaction potential. Stainless steel is stainless only in a standard atmosphere – with some margin, if activity of reaction participants is elevated this no loner holds true.
As I don’t want to bother you with more extensive stuff just have a look at this short overview here, it is Wikipedia but gives quite an accurate description of the mechanisms involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst_equation – chemical potential

Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 23 2019 12:07 utc | 152

This from Indian Punchline:

Meanwhile, a senior source at the Russian Defense Ministry alleged on Thursday that the Saudi air defence systems of US manufacture failed to repel last week’s attack by drones on the Aramco plants because they fall short of the declared parameters. TASS quoted the source as saying,
“The question arises how come such a strong air defence let through dozens of drones and cruise missiles? There can be only one reason for this: the much-advertised US systems Patriot and Aegis fall short of the officially declared parameters. Their effectiveness against small air targets and cruise missiles is low.” – https://indianpunchline.com/aramco-attack-a-defining-moment-in-us-saudi-alliance/

Posted by: Barovsky | Sep 23 2019 13:18 utc | 153

Peter AU 1, Humpf, Others
So what are your latest thoughts on possible exacerbation of damage.
It seems to me that:
1) We are only shown one hole that is said to have been removed from the onion tanks.
2) That hole has no fragment holes so a bomb wasn’t detonated there. Looks like a missile/projectile when through.
Seems to me we are back to the question of how Houthi made >17 hits with 10 launched drones/cruise missiles. And how they hit with such great precision.
I think there’s a possible answer that involves 10 cruise missiles launched from Yemen + a couple of dozen drones launched near the plant, some of which provided laser targeting. The alternative to that scenario is the possibility that the damage was made to be more than it was just from the attack.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 23 2019 13:34 utc | 154

@ Jackrabbit | Sep 23 2019 13:34 utc | 155
Honestly, I don’t know. To me it certainly looks like blast damage, about 10-20 kg going off at the surface or with a slight stand-off. A punch hole from a penetrating object seems improbable as the damaged area is too wide and the the cracks extending from it do not seem to support that either.
Maybe the entire missile was made of composite material (which btw is possible for a large portion of such a device) that disintegrated/disappeared on impact. /s
I still simply don’t know what to make of all this.
My guess is about 10-15 kg of plastic or PBX explosive detonated roughly 0.5-1m above the surface would yield such a result, but! that’s all just guesswork, or rather speculation. Anyhow, this certainly would explain the missing marks from fragmentation on the surface.

Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 23 2019 14:13 utc | 155

Is it possible that the US/Saudis actually ALLOWED the drones/missiles to reach their targets in order to create a rationale for an attack on Iran?
After all, we are expected to believe that one of the most surveilled locations on earth failed to detect a single device, regardless of where it came from?

Posted by: Barovsky | Sep 23 2019 16:04 utc | 156

Detonating when the nose contacts something would likely give the standoff distance and would close to Hmpf’s estimate.
Distance from Houthi held Yemen was max or a bit more for their largest piston engine drone = maximum fuel minimum load. I was guessing a figure of twenty kg or less for payload.
A worker standing on a walkway top left of the second column gives scale for the ten columns.
https://latesttalks.in/wp-content/uploads/sites/19/2019/09/oil-1.jpg
The main hole in No 1 column looks much larger than those that can be seen in the other columns and spheroids. I had thought No1 was hit twice, but perhaps it was hit by a Quds 1 carrying a much larger payload.
Most other holes in columns and tanks look to be about 1.2 meters across.
The section of elbow pipe with the dinged area and debris holes would also give an indication of standoff distance. I think this section of pipe bolts onto the top of the spheroid tanks. Holes likely to be from pieces of walkway, hand railing perhaps. Dinged in area caused by the blast.
The column at Khurais is different. This pic gives scale.
https://wfdd-live.s3.amazonaws.com/styles/story-full/s3/images/story
Looks to have been hit twice, once at the top and another closer to the base.
https://images.wsj.net/im-109168?width=620&size=1.5
https://www.sott.net/image/s26/538968/full/Khurais1.jpg
The lower strike I think has been large -Quds 1 – but it has detonated on the framework rather than against the tank. A lot of framework blown away.
A couple pics appeared early on supposedly by Saudi ministry of defence show damage from a fragmentation warhead. Looked similar in density and size of fragment marks to pics from Ukraine showing grad missile and artillery damage, but no sign of that in the pics from the chaperoned reporters tour.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 23 2019 17:46 utc | 157

Norman Schwarzkopf was on CNN during the Gulf war proclaiming a 100% kill rate for the Patriot in theatre. The following year Lyndon MacIntyre issued a report for CBC’s “The 5th Estate”, which investigation revealed that the actual kill rate proved to be close to or even precisely zero.

Posted by: nwwoods | Sep 24 2019 1:16 utc | 158

@Hmmpf and @peter_AU
So, if one sees at the same time, 1)traces of an explosion at the surface of the target, and 2) the work of some penetrator, can we think of an “explosive formed penetrator”?

Posted by: Parisian Guy | Sep 24 2019 3:29 utc | 159

@ Parisian Guy | Sep 24 2019 3:29 utc | 160
Nope. Standard-EFPs need even more stand-off (in the range of 30-40 charge diameters and above) than regular shaped charges do to function properly. Besides, the holes do not match EFP impact.

Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 24 2019 11:16 utc | 160

Ouch, above I’ve cited the wrong numbers.
Max. effective range for EFP is in the realm of 40+ charge diameters, formation takes about 8-10 charge diameters.

Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 24 2019 11:49 utc | 161

“The holes are on the north side of the stabilization towers”. Odd that. I always thought Saudi Arabia is north of the equator.

Posted by: Peter VE | Sep 24 2019 17:36 utc | 163

Thank you Peter VE!
I could easily be wrong about this! The picture seems to me to show the sun low towards the horizon according to the shadows, perhaps a few hours before sunset in late afternoon. If that is the case and assuming the tower is cylindrical I would guess the sunshine is from the west-south-west and the holes would be in a roughly north-western direction.
For comparison if the sun was straight to the west (sunset) the holes would be almost directly north-east and north-north-east. It doesn’t look like sunset at all to me but I’m aware there’s less and less and finally hardly any twilight the closer to the equator one gets (Riyadh is 24°39′N 46°46′E says Wikipedia, that’s a significant distance away from the equator, 90°N is of course the pole).
If the picture is taken in the morning rather than the late afternoon I would guess the holes should be roughly to the south-east and south-south-east.
Did I get that more or less right? Anyone else?

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 24 2019 23:36 utc | 164

Sunny Runny Burger @ 165
From my time working in the Gulf, there is only a half hour difference each side between summer and winter sunrise is always between 6.00 am and 6.30 and sunset the same in pm. There’s virtually no twilight it goes to starry night sky within about 40 mins of sunset. So its not the equator, but in experience – its close.

Posted by: dennis | Sep 24 2019 23:54 utc | 165

Thanks Dennis and Peter AU 1, northwest it is then.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 25 2019 0:04 utc | 167

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 21 2019 19:12 utc | 22
I have seen exactly this situation (though from a much humbler position) in a Philips-owned Co. that made TV transmitters. As an example of the sort of idiocy introduced by the bean-counters “to stop petty pilfering”, if an operative wanted, say, 6 hex-headed M6 x 30mm bolts, he had to get his foreman to write a requisition form for the said items, which he did using a company code. The operative then had to take this form to an office where they translated the code into, numbers of items from a particular bin, which they wrote on another form, which the operative then took to the stores. In the stores, there was, of course, a queue, which he joined. Some time later he handed his form to a storeman who went and took the required number of item out of the stated bin. If that happened to correspond with what he had originally wanted, OK. If not he had to go back to his foreman and start all over again. Honestly, I am not making this up! (The company concerned, you will not be surprised to learn went bust and was sold to a Swedish company.)

Posted by: foolisholdman | Sep 25 2019 14:34 utc | 168

Don Bacon | Sep 21 2019 21:38 utc | 46

[FM Adel] al-Jubeir told a news conference, declining to speculate about specific actions. “We are certain that the launch did not come from Yemen, it came from the north. The investigations will prove that.”. .here

The story was that the defenses didn’t work because they were arranged to defend against an attack from Iran, i.e. from the North. Now this bod is saying they did come from the North so why did they not work? Because that is how they are? Useless?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Sep 25 2019 15:04 utc | 169

Piotr Berman | Sep 22 2019 13:46 utc | 134

Concerning Aramco IPO, there is something I do not understand. Allegedly, the goal is to reduce dependence of The Kingdom on oil exports, and the method is to sell stock of the national oil company instead. Ultimately, instead of profits being the state property, the state will get revenue by taxing the company, and/or taxing oil export as it is done in Russia (and other countries, I presume). But the state budget would depend on oil to the same extend as before, isn’t it?

No. Not if the money from the IPO is spent on founding non-oil related, or at least, other industries. Clothing, tourism, shipping, food, manufacturing, or what have you?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Sep 25 2019 16:21 utc | 170

Fred | Sep 23 2019 10:50 utc | 151

‘There are Navy families in Bahrain, for example, women and children, who would object to being incinerated by Iran missiles.’
Bringing your family to one of those middle eastern shitholes is just irresponsible parenting.

In the first British invasion of Afghanistan, the British brought their wives and children with them and settled them in, as they thought, (!) for the duration.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Sep 25 2019 16:45 utc | 171

It was smart for the drone aiming on the towers row to come from NorthWest. It was impossible for a drone with that heading to pass through the towers row. If the drone missed the targeted tower, it would in any case crash on another near tower.

Posted by: Parisian Guy | Sep 25 2019 19:32 utc | 172

I was in the refining business for many years.
1. Only a handful of companies make/build refineries, Fluor is one of the biggest.
2. Refineries are custom built.
3. Nothing is off the shelf, except pumps and valves.
4. Everything in contact with crude / product is subject to high temperatures, high pressures, and intense corrosion.
5. Corrosion often makes repairing via welding impossible.
I believe time will show that the only feasible repair to much of the facility consists of outright replacement.
It’s a remote desert location.
Everything must be fabricated in other countries far away, and shipped in.
Depending upon the condition of order books, it may be months before they can start the job. Which means getting the engineers to make the prints, then fabbing the components.
Could take a year…. possibly longer….
Then, there is the not so small matter of the Houthis…..
KSA rejected the truce….
The Houthis will with the assistance of their allies…. plan more attacks….
Some pin pricks…… possibly another of great significance….
Power plants…. Desalination plants…. loading terminals…. pumping stations…. all out in the open desert….
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 25 2019 22:39 utc | 173