Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 26, 2019

Trump Pushed Ukraine's President To Investigate Issues Of U.S. Public Interest

The misguided 'impeachment inquiry" develops with the declassification and publication of the whistleblower complaint (pdf) that underlies the case.

It alleges what was publicly known even before the phone call between Trump and the Ukrainian President Zelensky was published.

During the then still ongoing Mueller investigation Rudi Giuliani, as a private lawyer for President Trump, tried to find exculpating information which he hoped would debunk the allegations of collusion between Trump and Russia.

It was known that there had been involvement of Ukraine related people as well as of Ukrainian officials in Russiagate and the election campaigns:

Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found.

How deep where these involvements? Are there Ukrainian sources in the debunked Steele dossier about Trump?

There was also the mysterious fact that just three weeks after the U.S. managed 2014 coup in Ukraine, in which Joe Biden as then U.S. vice-president was heavily involved, Joe Biden's son Hunter started to receive more that $50,000 per month for being on the board of a Ukrainian gas company even though he had no knowledge of the gas business or the Ukraine.

In April the then Prosecutor General of the Ukraine Lutsenko was quoted in The Hill mentioning the above allegations.

Giuliani hoped that the Ukraine would investigate both issues and would find facts that might help to exculpate Trump. He openly spoke about this in several TV appearances and interviews since at least March 2019.

On July 24 the Mueller investigation into Russiagate closed. On July 25 Trump had a phone call with Zelensky in which Trump mildly pressed for further Ukrainian investigations into both issues, the Ukrainian involvement in Russigate and the U.S. election and the case of Hunter Biden. Zelensky responded that he would so. He later said that he found the telephone call "normal".

The whistleblower, presumably someone of medium to higher rank in the CIA, is concerned that Trump's request to Zelensky is a "serious or flagrant problem, abuse, or violation of law or Executive Order" that justify his action.

The Democrats in Congress will make similar claims. But there are reasons to see the issue completely differently.

Attorney General Barr has opened an investigation into the roots of the debunked Russiagate claims. An investigation on the ground in the Ukraine could surely help to find evidence proving or disproving Ukrainian involvement in it.

Biden had publicly bragged to have blackmailed the then Ukrainian President Poroshenko into firing the then Prosecutor General of the Ukraine Shokin. Shokin had at that time an open case against the owner of the Ukrainian company Biden's son worked for. Biden's intervention smells of corruption or at least undue interference by a U.S. official for personal reasons.

Trump can reasonable argue that investigations in the Ukraine into both issues are in the U.S. public interest.

Did Ukrainian officials interfere in the 2016 election by creating or hyping the debunked Russiagate affair and by supporting the Clinton campaign? Alleged Russian interference in the election was a big issue. Why is Ukrainian interference not of interest?

Did Joe Biden use his influence to get his unqualified son a high paying job in Ukraine? Did he use his official powers as vice president to the advantage of Hunter Biden's employer?

Has the U.S. public an interest in knowing the answers to these questions?

If it has such interest why shouldn't the president concern himself with pushing the Ukrainian president to investigate the issues?

Posted by b on September 26, 2019 at 14:37 UTC | Permalink

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@ Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Sep 26 2019 23:02 utc | 88

Kievan Rus has nothing to do with modern Ukraine and is only the spiritual cradle of Slavic civilization.

Modern Russia was first born from the Kingdom of Novgorod.

Posted by: vk | Sep 26 2019 23:53 utc | 101

donkey - i guess you still figure russia gate was all about trump colluding with putin too... there is no hope for some..

Posted by: james | Sep 27 2019 0:14 utc | 102

Nothing more than street theater for the boobousie on both sides to lap up. Nothing more than a psyop to keep the old 2 party game going while together they destroy America.

Posted by: Mark | Sep 27 2019 0:29 utc | 103

"Did Ukrainian officials interfere in the 2016 election by creating or hyping the debunked Russiagate affair and by supporting the Clinton campaign? Alleged Russian interference in the election was a big issue. Why is Ukrainian interference not of interest?" Ukrainian "interference" is of no interest for exactly the same reasons the alleged Russian interference wasn't. The only difference is the Trump the God (in some eyes) "joked" about wanting more of it.

"Did Joe Biden use his influence to get his unqualified son a high paying job in Ukraine? Did he use his official powers as vice president to the advantage of Hunter Biden's employer?" The true corruption is what's legal. There's no law against influence peddling, as in Hunter Biden offering himself for hire. As for the other question, no question with zero evidence need be answered. Is Trump using his influence to advance his son and son-in-law's career? That isn't a legit question eiher.

"Has the U.S. public an interest in knowing the answers to these questions?" Uh, not in the deceitful way they've been posed here. Everyone knows that having children in business where the office has an impact is an impropriety. But it is the Trumpists who boast of impropriety as it means their crypto-fascist strong man is above the petty morals that bind cowards afraid to be ruthless.

"If it has such interest why shouldn't the president concern himself with pushing the Ukrainian president to investigate the issues?" Even the most trivial reason, being a micromanager is stupid, is good enough. The most important reason is personal favors are depraved diplomacy, grossly antithetical to the professed values of Trump ass-kissers.

This BS was hateful and contemptible demagogy when it was launched against Clinton, and nothing's changed. Only hateful and contemptible demagogues want this kind of politics.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Sep 27 2019 0:34 utc | 104

More evidence that Hunter Biden was on the Burisma board as a US, just not of the intelligence services. Per Wikipedia, Hunter Biden served on the President's advisory council of the National Democratic Institute (NDI,) a subsidiary of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED). NED was formed after the CIA was stripped of its authority to pursue regime change.

It is frequently asserted that NED's mandate includes regime change and color revolutions. From that perch, Hunter Biden could have had intimate, inside knowledge of the Ukrainian coup.

In the aftermath of the coup, Hunter Biden got appointed to the board of the strategically important Burisma energy company. IMO this appointment was not an 'ethical lapse,' a bug, but rather a feature. The US likes to have trusted assets in place at major, foreign energy companies.

From this position, Hunter Biden would have easily been able to befriend powerful Ukrainians, the kind of people would could have helped concoct and affirm whatever Russian narrative that US leaders desired.

Posted by: JohnH | Sep 27 2019 0:36 utc | 105

The Netherlands, as far as I know, only lacks the definite article in Dutch: Nederland. German, French, and Spanish have the article as much as English does.

Posted by: lysias | Sep 27 2019 0:43 utc | 106

@ Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Sep 26 2019 23:02 utc | 88

Kievan Rus has nothing to do with modern Ukraine and is only the spiritual cradle of Slavic civilization.

Modern Russia was first born from the Kingdom of Novgorod.

Posted by: vk | Sep 26 2019 23:53 utc | 102

The beginnings of Rus' are described in chronicles that are rich in detail, but chronologically impossible, so it is apparently a transmission of oral war without high levels of sobriety. The term "Kingdom" is never used. Great Novgorod is mentioned as conquered by Viking Rurik in 860, and Kiev conquered 20 years later by his son, Oleg (the Prophet?). As I said, Rurikids definitely ruled Rus when the chronicles were written more than 100 years later, but the chronology in IX century is murky. BTW, there never was a "Kingdom of Novgorod", but there was a Republic of Novgorod.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 27 2019 1:10 utc | 107

''Did Joe Biden use his influence to get his unqualified son a high paying job in Ukraine?''

Does 2 + 2 = 4

How else would an American fellow with a string of career failures and a drug habit have been appointed to a plum position in a foreign company in a foreign country...if not thru his VP daddy?

Posted by: renfro | Sep 27 2019 1:17 utc | 108

@103 pal Sal Paradise

Sounds like a good start.

Posted by: spudski | Sep 27 2019 1:23 utc | 109

Kievan Rus was the cradle of the Russian Orthodox Church.

A Ukrainian-American was one of my classmates at college in the late 1960s. He used to insist that one say "Ukraine" and not "the Ukraine". I suspect his people came from Galicia, as he was a big fan of Joseph Roth's novel "Radetzkymarsch", about the Austrian Empire.

Posted by: lysias | Sep 27 2019 1:30 utc | 110

@75 Don Bacon

The legalese is above my pay grade, but I trust the DoJ with telling the truth about as much as any other dept in DC. DC is devolving into every dept doing whatever they want with little to no oversight or consequences, and this isn't a new problem. After all, Barr says this is all legal, and the FBI still hasn't figured out what was wrong with the camera failures during Epstein's "suicide".

Posted by: Sorghum | Sep 27 2019 2:03 utc | 111

No james this isnt russiagate nor Watergate nor emailgate nor Benghazigate.

Your point is?

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 27 2019 2:11 utc | 112

@ Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 27 2019 1:10 utc | 109

Those sources are far from conclusive.

It's very unlikely Novgorod Rus was an extension of the Kievan Rus during the 9th Century. That would make it of extremely large extension for a very primitive society. Most probably, Novgorod was, at most, a tributary State of the Kievan Rus, with essentially full autonomy.

The ruler of Novgorod was called "king" if memory doesn't fail me. The concept of "republican feudalism" that was taught during the Soviet times is most likely an anachronism: there was no concept or republic in the Middle Ages, it being invented during the times of illuminism. Novgorod was, with almost certainty, a kingdom in the Feudal fashion ("feudalism" itself being a fantasy term used by modern historians to designate what probably was the dominant economic system of the European Middle Ages).

After the Kievan Rus was anihilated by the "Golden Hordes" (another name for the Mongolians), Novgorod was kind of the only thing that was left of the Kievan Rus (like the Church was for the Roman Empire in the West), so it's understandable the Slavic countries are more inclined to state the Novgorod Kingdom was part of the Kievan Rus, even though that was almost certainly not true.

Posted by: vk | Sep 27 2019 2:13 utc | 113

@ donkey, my main point is there is a real sickness in the usa political system and it is not going to be addressed when people are picking a side and rooting for it... how about getting down to getting the usa's ass out of meddling everywhere? doesn't matter if it is dems or repubs - they are all fucking meddlers to the nth degree, cowtowing to their select friends - read other fellow warmongers - and don't give a shit about getting in touch with the rest of the world.. and as you know i live in canada and don't have a horse in the local usa race for insanity..

frankly, i hope ukraine-gate is about as productive of the truth as russia-gate was - which is to say - not very likely at all..

Posted by: james | Sep 27 2019 2:27 utc | 114

Lysias @ 112:

The cradle of the Russian Orthodox Church is a place near the city of Sevastopol in Crimea where Vladimir (reigned 980 - 1015) was baptised into the Orthodox Church. He then declared Kievan Rus to be a Christian country and had his subjects baptised as Christians in mass baptism.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 27 2019 2:28 utc | 115

It appears that the whole impeachment has been orchestrated by the CIA. The whistleblower is CIA.

Meanwhile, Pelosi served many years on the House Intelligence Committee, an appointment that certainly could not have hurt her ascent to Speaker. Indeed, I don't recall Pelosi ever questioning anything the CIA did … not even torture. Her only complaint ever was that they didn't keep her sufficiently informed about torture.

Now, when it appears that Trump has not been sufficiently humbled by Russiagate, and actually has the gall to pursue the source of the debunked allegations, the CIA is apparently NOT happy.

And when the CIA says to Pelosi, "Jump!", Pelosi says, "How high?"

What will be interesting is to see how much influence the CIA has over Republican Senators, who, in an impeachment vote, could be caught between the wishes of their base, and the wishes of the intelligence community. Will this be the first color revolution on US soil?

Posted by: JohnH | Sep 27 2019 2:39 utc | 116

Donkeytale @ 39:

Please advise what political opponents of Vladimir Putin does the Russian President put into jail for standing against him?

If you are referring to Alexander Navalny, he was found guilty of embezzlement while supposedly acting as a consultant for a state-owned timber company in Kirov in 2013, and again found guilty of embezzlement in 2014 in a separate criminal case involving a Russian subsidiary of the French firm Yves Rocher.

In every major presidential or mayoral election where Navalny tries to stand as a candidate, he fails because he cannot get the minimum number of signatures to qualify as a candidate. This is not an unreasonable requirement, nor is it uniquely Russian: to be eligible for the Presidency of Iceland, one needs 1,500 commendations.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 27 2019 2:49 utc | 117

I've not seen any one propose what seems obvious to me now, that there may be two presidents elected during the next US election, each claiming ultimate legitimacy.

Trump, elected with the Electoral College, and one elected outside of the Electoral College, by popular vote, which may be Clinton as proposed above, or her avatar, though the players are less important than the color revolution tactic itself.

Clinton looked almost bold enough to try this last election but wavered, and then ended up playing rearguard with Russiagate. It seems likely her camp may feel that the momentum has built sufficiently for it to work this time.

The question in my mind if this transpires, will it immediately result in states aligning with one or the other and a genuine civil conflict, or will there be a long slow burn of legalities.

Thanks to b and to commentors here for many great history and politics lessons with each post.

Posted by: JJ | Sep 27 2019 3:35 utc | 118

It looks like we will get to meet the whistleblower.
from The Hill:

The House Intelligence Committee is working with the whistleblower’s lawyers and Maguire to allow the whistleblower to speak before the committee. [DNI] Maguire assured lawmakers during the lengthy hearing that the individual would be able to testify “fully and freely.”
“I was pleased that the director committed to having the whistleblower come in as soon as the clearance issues are resolved for the whistleblower's counsel,” Schiff told reporters after the hearing. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 27 2019 4:12 utc | 119

If the “whistleblower” was simply reporting hearsay, how can he/she be described as a whistleblower?

I can’t believe how, after Russiagate, this story has managed to gain any traction whatsoever. The college educated public in America is probably the least sophisticated on the planet.

Posted by: jayc | Sep 27 2019 4:18 utc | 120

Parishioner @124,

If I cared what rich aristocrats with attitude problems had to say I'd string one up a lamp post. Take your incoherent oligarch-approved word salad with boot polish dressing to another bar.

Posted by: Jonathan^-1 | Sep 27 2019 5:32 utc | 121

Sergei @128,

Don't need a video to tell me that it is always "rational" to sell out and that the USA was always a proto-feudal empire.

JJ @122,

What do you make of all the funds for "election security" in the form of yet more magic computerized boxes that can be tampered with and never, ever be proven verified, while somehow paper ballots, hand-marked, hand-counted, in public are just not an option the FEC talks about because there's no graft in it?

Sal Paradise @103,

Too dangerous to let live. I'd suggest the 1789 treatment or the reverse Pinochet, but Fatherland Security is looking to cover for the Democrat Party fixing their primary again so maybe I'd better not elaborate.

Posted by: Jonathan^-1 | Sep 27 2019 5:42 utc | 122

Sal Paradise | Sep 27 2019 0:00 utc | 103:

I agree with your last sentence.   But jail?!   No!   Lamppost and rope.

Posted by: Ian2 | Sep 27 2019 5:59 utc | 123

This "Trump is a traitor" garbage is so preposterous that my interest in it was beginning to wane. But last night an International News 'outlet' broadcast a snippet of the fact-free dross and drivel from the mouths of his Dem accusers. It soon became obvious that the blather was a virtual carbon copy of the emotive claptrap deployed to accuse Saddam Hussein of heinous imaginary crimes in order to justify bombing Iraq back to the Stone Age.

So if anyone wants to get a handle on the course of this Star Chamber style witch-hunt just cast your mind back to that sorry episode of AmeriKKKan "History".

The Dems are trying to paint Trump as the New, Improved, Saddam Hussein. And, as was the case with Saddam, no made-up fact or outrageous lie will be "off the table". It's started already.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 27 2019 6:00 utc | 124

B you are being disingenuous in your reporting, why are you bending over backwards to defend trump? I just don’t get it. I really used to value you because I thought you were more interested in what’s honest, but it seems you’ve been sucked into the fray and now take sides. This is so strange to me. Trump clearly did something wrong, if not why try to hide it? We know the DNC did something wrong too, we didn’t deny that.

Last time I’ll be on the site, cannot support any longer.

Posted by: A | Sep 27 2019 6:06 utc | 125


"Greta Thunberg effect":

On Wednesday a man from Manchester, England, posted on social media that a 14-year-old boy from the school his wife works at committed suicide in part because of climate change anxiety. There are no news reports on this and there very well may be another side to the story, but just the possibility of this being true should cause a chill to run through the spine of every parent. Is this a world we want to live in?

Posted by: psychiatrist | Sep 27 2019 6:18 utc | 126


Do not be fooled by yourself. You will still remain on the site under various nicknames to crap here.

Posted by: psychiatrist | Sep 27 2019 6:22 utc | 127

Re: Posted by: A | Sep 27 2019 6:06 utc | 1

Try to hide it?!?!?

What rubbish. Have you not noticed Trump already released a transcript of the call with the Ukrainian President showing Trump did nothing wrong!!

Trump asking the Ukrainian President to investigate corruption surrounding the 2016 Presidential Election is exactly what he should be doing!!

Plus. Someone reporting something based on hearsay is NOT whistleblowing!!

This CIA Spy who lodged this complaint is NOT A WHISTLEBLOWER. Rather just a CIA Spy.

Not a witness. Not a whistleblower!!

Relying on NY Times & Washington Post to life a complaint is pathetic.

Posted by: Julian | Sep 27 2019 6:43 utc | 128

Zzzz . . .
Nothing observable by 99.99% of humans is gonna come of this inane little ruction.
The most appalling thing about it all is that there have been damn near to 200 thought through posts in this thread and a similar number in the previous one.

Some people are even becoming quite heated about this WTF? The posts from dingbats (amerikan of course) who imagine b has done them wrong because b wrote something the whinger didn't like even though said whinger had chucked a couple bucks towards the upkeep of the site are absolute classics.

It is this transactional nature of all interactions in amerika which lies at the heart of this tawdriest of all empire's problems.
I took it for granted everyone got that.
It is Biden demanding quid pro quo for a billion dollar loan guarantee Ukraine's puppet on a string prez brought into being by Biden/Oblamblam/Clinton which kicked this ugly bully mess off.
Orange boy did the same also demanding something in return for what was alleged to be a freely given service, and now we have posters demanding that b only write stuff which makes the poster feel good in return for the donation he made.

Bugger an objective take, b must only cater for half-witted supporters of some of the most crooked politicians yet seen, eh.

The rest of this is nonsense, none of it matters cos which ever way this tempest in a teacup goes, the end result will be same as always - a two faced lying turd whose only interest is assisting the 0.001%.

So why the interest, the result is a forgone conclusion.

Posted by: A User | Sep 27 2019 6:46 utc | 129

Looks like the current drama from the land of drama queens has been set up with an open ending.
"Democrats seized on the declassified whistleblower complaint released right before the hearing
as further evidence of what they see as an impeachable offense by Trump.
They highlighted how the complaint alleges that White House officials tried to restrict access
to records of Trump’s call with Zelensky, including an allegation that officials removed the
transcript from the computer system where it would typically be stored to conceal its existence."

So they gotta prove Trump trump possibly removed a possibly non existent possibly 'truthful'
record of the call.

I guess they will drag this out as long as Russiagate.

Better add a few more zzz's A User.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 27 2019 7:22 utc | 130

I think the point the centrist Dems are going to stumble over is the assertion that Trump "tried to manipulate
the president of a foreign country" to investigate a possible political opponent "in order to fabricate material
to be used against him in the 2020 election." If Zelensky says the call was "normal," then the alleged manipula-
tion was normal diplomatic usage. More interesting is the problem of Trump's motivation. This is reading minds.
Many criminal charges require proving mens rea, the state of mind or intention of the accused. If you can't prove
beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused intended to do wrong, then the verdict must be "not guilty." The summary
of the call does not show Trump saying anything like that. He was requesting an investigation because we have heard
things that suggest Hunter Biden did wrong. Former Prosecutor Shokin suspended the investigation into Burisma, but
that doesn't mean there was no wrongdoing there. It may just mean he knew Burisma was protected.

Posted by: Procopius | Sep 27 2019 7:39 utc | 131
The Russian State originated in the Ukraine, when Moscow was a hunting lodge.
Just so you know-----

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Sep 26 2019 23:02 utc

Now, opening Idaho's link everyone can read: Rurik set up rule in Novgorod, giving more provincial towns to his brothers

If anyone wonders, Nov-gorod = "new city" (at least in traditional historiography) is located North-West from Moscow, in the same swampy forests like Pskov. If anyone can claim Russian statehood out of first Rurik's HQ location - that is Belorussia aka Lithuania, and Ukraine was "civilized" from Novgorod, to use common western terms.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 7:40 utc | 132

To me it just sounds that a few sound minds are trying to stop at
any cost a Brexit maneuvered under a BoJo-The Donald duo. Doesn't
sound like a bad idea. I have nothing against Brexit, but not under
these people.

Posted by: Mina | Sep 27 2019 7:56 utc | 133

The president of Ukraine and Ukraine overall are just playing cards in the US politics in the case of the impeachment process. The Democratic Party started playing this card after its hopes to impeach Donald Trump using the Russiagate scandal failed after the Mueller investigation did not prove Trump collusion with the Russian government and a conspiracy theory that Trump is a Russian agent was also debunked. The whistleblower report about the call between Volydmyr Zelensky and Trump was used to initiate impeachment proceedings even before the transcript of this call was made public.

The declassified transcript of the phone call between Trump and Zelensky demonstrates that Ukraine is still a US client state, like it became after the Maidan under Obama presidency when Biden was in charge or relations with Ukraine. Trump suggests Zelensky what to do, in particular, concerning the investigation of his opponent in the US presidential elections. Zelensky tries to please and flatter Trump numerous times and accepts Trump’s suggestion to reopen the investigation involving Biden’s son company in Ukraine. Like Bill Clinton, Trump can be impeached in the House of Representatives but unlikely in the Senate.


[fixed malformed link - b]

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 7:59 utc | 134

Who cares who was who in the past. It is important who is who today.

Posted by: joe | Sep 27 2019 7:56 utc | 148

Ukrainians do, you saw it in previous comments page where they rushed to teach English-speaking folks how to properly speak English about a/the/ze/whatever Ukraine. It was funny because it was so typical :-D

Maybe they just do not want to think about today.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 8:02 utc | 135

Reading the treaty linked by Smith @143, I see why the so called impeachment
depends on a most likely non existant copy of the phone call.

Trump has Biden and quite likely russiagate by the balls and their only hope is to
stretch this drama out until election and hope Sleepy wins.
Going by the way he casually admitted in public, on video, of having the prosecutor
investigating his son, or sons company sacked, the name fits.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 27 2019 8:09 utc | 136

@151 joe... the usa is in perpetual war.. finally it looks it brought the permanent state of war onto itself... when they aren't murdering innocents with their NRA mindset in the next god forsaken usa place, they are murdering others in faraway countries.. now, it looks like the usa is ready to murder there own in a bigger way... it couldn't happen to a more depraved group of people based on their actions on the world stage the past 70 odd years beginning in korea... i hope the wheels come right off the usa and that they reep what they have sown on the world stage..

Posted by: james | Sep 27 2019 8:10 utc | 137

larry johnson take -

Posted by: james | Sep 27 2019 8:18 utc | 138

This kicked off on 9th September
"The House Foreign Affairs, Intelligence and Oversight committees
launched an investigation into the matter early this month, before
news broke about the whistleblower complaint that helped lead
Pelosi to announce the formal impeachment investigation.

In a letter on Sept. 9, the chairmen of three committees set a
Sept. 26 deadline for the documents to be handed over, and
threatened to issue subpoenas if their request was not met."

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 27 2019 8:21 utc | 139

joe @151,

We don't serve bourgeois neoliberals here. All you mentally deranged Mammon worshippers can get bent.

Posted by: Jonathan^-1 | Sep 27 2019 8:26 utc | 140


Just read Johnson's piece.
US is in a worse place than Russia of the late 90's.
Putin, when he came to office had a solid core in the military and
intelligence that could be relied on, that were still honest.
Us hasn't even got that. It is rotten to the core.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 27 2019 8:37 utc | 141

> the radical ideology of Marxist communist Saul Alinsky

Posted by: Parishioner | Sep 27 2019 3:59 utc

Oh, I see C-word and M-word invoked.

S.A.> The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide.

If that makes him Marxist it should also make him Nazi Christian. And White Guards Jew too, by parents.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 8:39 utc | 142

Peter AU, well spotted, the prorogation took effect on the 9th too.

Posted by: Mina | Sep 27 2019 9:49 utc | 143

A twist in the tale!

Russian hackers a killing the free world with Climate Change - and who would you guess is to save the world& of course, Bellingcat, the famous and the only.

You really cannot make this stuff up, because this stuff should be subject to DEA

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 10:08 utc | 144

@152 By the way, the Ukies rushed to teach the Russians how to properly speak Russian.

Posted by: joe | Sep 27 2019 9:37 utc | 163

I bet you refer to this my comment, don't you? :-D

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2019 18:14 utc | 36

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 10:10 utc | 145

See Craig Murray's piece:

Posted by: Barovsky | Sep 27 2019 10:15 utc | 146

See Craig Murray's piece:

Posted by: Barovsky | Sep 27 2019 10:15 utc

Da foosk! Am I truly reading the Cragh Murray, gentleman and diplomat???

This Tory display also very much reinforced what I have been saying for years, that we will not gain Scottish Independence through a repeat of 2014. We were allowed a referendum with only moderate cheating by the British state purely because they believed there was no chance we could win. They have been disabused. There will never be a Section 30 order an an agreed referendum again. We will have to seize Independence by means which the British state will deem unlawful. Anybody not prepared to do that is not serious about Independence.



Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 10:23 utc | 147

Posted by: JohnH | Sep 27 2019 2:39 utc | 118

An Ukrainian sponsored color revolution?

Democrats have just given Kholomojski the power to influence US elections.
As Kholomojski had a falling out with "Western" Petroshenko, he might go Trump -
if Trump manages to return PrivatBank to him.

Expect a lot of fun

But, even if, as is highly questionable, such incriminating papers existed, the price was much too high. “People started running around, saying, ‘I represent the U.S. president. What do you have for me?’ And people were like, ‘What do you mean, What do I have? Where’s the money?’” says the source. It's the Treasure of Sierra Madre, Kiev edition. (Parnas says he has no knowledge of any payments for information, and claims that Americans will soon be surprised by the documents uncovered in Ukraine.)

Especially as Russia "highly likely" knows a lot about what USians are doing in Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2019 10:34 utc | 148

You know b has hit one of the empire's exposed nerves when the thread fills up with narrative management personnel beyond the normal mule/bunny tag team that are assigned to the bar.

So, newcomers, how's the weather in Langley?

What, the nickel per post that they pay you isn't enough for you to afford to live anywhere in northern Virginia? But you are fighting for capitalism and that at-will piecework employment is the capitalist ideal! If you nickel posters object to that then you should unionize and demand real wages and benefits.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 27 2019 10:58 utc | 149

From the link @174

"Burisma Group’s Board member Karina Zlochevska signed the document on behalf of the Group.
The fifteen principles reflect a broad reform consensus in Ukraine, aiming at creating
well-functioning markets and strong private property rights...
...“Economic security is a prerequisite for economic growth and attraction of foreign
investments. Today, Ukraine is undergoing a global transformation that requires existing
regulatory standards, inspections and inspection bodies to be abolished. The Atlantic
Council’s declaration is a concrete and effective initiative. If the state supports
and implements these principles sometime soon, business in Ukraine will work more
effectively”, – said Karina Zlochevska."

Atlantic council hard at work helping the good people of Ukraine.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 27 2019 11:11 utc | 150

Boy this thread went sideways. Line-wrap bollixed again, posters discussing "Ukies"
and "Russia" and what they are and ought to do, language police, umbrage and resentment
on parade.

Learned some Latin bits, that was good.

Well, if not very informative, at least it is entertaining.

As to the subject of the thread, the public interest is not valued here, it's all
about private money, private interest, and the war of all against all. Our "elites"
read Hobbes and thought that was the way to go. A society of predators and prey.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 27 2019 11:50 utc | 151

Posted by: farmer | Sep 27 2019 10:49 utc | 174

That is the oldest trick in the world. See Bill Browder, or part of the ecological movement.

To kill a cause you fight for it.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2019 12:19 utc | 152

Farmer @ 174, Peter AU 1 @ 177:

One other curious fact about Burisma Holdings: a "former" CIA officer / ex-Vice Chair of Blackwater / Akademi currently sits on the Board of Directors there.

Posted by: jen | Sep 27 2019 12:34 utc | 153

Interesting article at Sputnik- The Hill actually-
It really is beyond argument that the basis of this story is corruption on the
part of Biden and Obama. The fact that Trump is corrupt ought to make it more, not less
obvious that it is necessary to investigate the Hunter Biden affair.
The millions of dollars in bribes and sinecures came straight out of the hides of the
poorest people in Europe, the Ukrainians. Furthermore these natural resources had been transferred
from public ownership into the hands of thugs and thieves (aka oligarchs) at the behest of
the United States, both governmentally and through the evil offices of its academics, demanding
the "shock therapy" of cutting social security and reducing Ukrainians to begging for work
at any price.
It speaks volumes about the "exceptional" stupidity and "indispensable" narcissism of US
politics that clear evidence of thieves caught red handed is seen as an attack on the
reputation of the thieves.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 27 2019 12:36 utc | 154

Enormous thanks to El Sid @ #26 for posting the link to The Duran interview!

(Note the use of the word "The" in a positive sense)

Please, please everyone before you pontificate any further, DO go to that link!

It is a long interview, so get your Duran coffee cup (it's a big one) and sit
back and enjoy! Bravo to these two on this video - they have outshone "All the
President's Men" by demonstrating what Pelosi has been part of here, and what
the Zelensky phone call was all about. And to take from John Dean's former
comments blown up to huge proportions:

This is Bigger than Watergate!!!

Posted by: juliania | Sep 27 2019 13:21 utc | 155

We'll be hearing some more from Rudy:
from DefenseOne--

. . .Giuliani went on to say that State Department officials had asked for his assistance. “If they were so concerned about my activities, why did they ask for my help? Why did they send me a bunch of friendly text messages reaching out for my help, thanking me for my help?” Giuliani said he planned to make sure these “friendly text messages” came out “in a longer story.”
He continued to stress that “all his facts” were “true” about the Bidens, though there is no evidence so far that they are. Giuliani argued the reason his attempts to root out corruption were front-page news, and not the alleged corruption itself, was because “the press idolizes Joe Biden and despises Donald Trump.” In a tweet last night, Biden said it was “clear” that “Donald Trump pressured Ukraine to manufacture a smear against a domestic political opponent,” calling it “an abuse of power that violates the oath of office and undermines our democracy.”
Giuliani has no intention, however, of slowing the smear campaign. “If this guy is a whistle-blower, then I’m a whistle-blower too,” Giuliani said. “You should be happy for your country that I uncovered this.”. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 27 2019 13:38 utc | 156

...and everyone please focus on b's headline.

That is where it is at!

Kudos to The Duran! That is an historic

Posted by: juliania | Sep 27 2019 13:48 utc | 157


I read the whistleblower memo. And then I read the analysis by Larry C Johnson. Johnson is wrong! The whistleblower is not a liar and a cheat. He is extremely good in his reporting. Except that he does not work for the CIA. In reality he is a secret agent of The Resistance. It is the primary duty of the Resistance to guard the Russia collusion hoax, as it is their sole justification for existence.

He is now informing the Resistance that the big attack is coming. He misused the whistleblower mechanism to leak this top secret information to the Resistance. The Resistance must now prepare the defense. Impeachment is the best defense.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Sep 27 2019 14:00 utc | 158

The impartial BBC have helpfully cleared up the whole matter with the following piece.
Scroll to 2min10secs to hear Daria Kaleniuk AntiCorruption Action Centre explain how prosecutor Shokin was in the process of dumping the investigation so Biden was actually looking to get a new appointee to pursue the case against, amongst others, his son. Daria Kaleniuk incidentally was educated at the Chicago-Kent School of Law and was a sumner intern at Transparency International-USA in 2011. Interestingly Transparency International "disaccredited" its US chapter in 2017. Still I have no doubt the BBC has vouch safed Ms. Kaleniuk's probity and impartiality before airing her assurances of Bidens clean hands in this matter.

Posted by: Nimby Jim | Sep 27 2019 14:01 utc | 159

Mina @167: the prorogation took effect on the 9th too.

USA has nothing like prorogation, but the impeachment process, even if its bogus, can effectively shut up Congress. And it provides cover for our "democratic representatives" lack of interest in the fact that USA is on the cusp of war.

But another important thing happened on the 9th: Trump asked for Bolton's resignation (Bolton actually resigned the next day: the 10th)

To summarize, on the 9th:

> a letter is sent to WH demanding documents in a bogus CIA-originated Whistle-blower Investigation;

> Bolton is asked to resign;

> Prorogation starts.

Soon after:

Sept 14th: Houthi attack on Saudi Arabia.

Sept 15th: Israeli elections.

Sept 18th: UN General Assembly.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

I have a feeling that the Houthi attack was delayed by a couple of days. If it had been on the 12th, it would've had greatest impact on USA public (day after 9-11 remembrance) - and would've had a greater impact on Israeli elections.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2019 14:03 utc | 160

karlof1 @15 --
"a lot of meat for the grinder," as you say.
With others on this thread, I am at least mildly perplexed that the Donald does not go after at least those actively working to bring him down. I'm not sure he cares about the Swamp, more generally.

So what might bring him to bring them down?

* He would believe that their counterattack once the gloves come off is less to be feared than their current attacks (meaning presumably that he thinks assassination is not likely).

* He really turns out to be a patriot who believes this must be done to save the Republic.

* He has really been striving to do this for some time, but now finds a way.

* He is showing far more discipline and strategic cunning than he is credited for, and this is all part of a long campaign to drop the hammer as it all comes together, say just before the election.

Can't say I feel much confidence in any of these explanations, but who can say?

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Sep 27 2019 14:19 utc | 161

Jen @ 199

That's exactly my point. Trump would love to be able to disqualify Biden or any opponent through the system, the court system if he could just as Putin disqualified Navalny and other candidates from opposition parties for various reasons.

Anyone who believes the Russian political system is judicious has drunk the kool aid.

Feeding at the Russian dinfo trough is no different than feeding at any disinfo trough. No other way to put it.

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 27 2019 14:20 utc | 162

Jen @ 119 meant to say

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 27 2019 14:20 utc | 163

james the US system is corrupt? Get out of town. So we fix it by supporting Trump is that your answer?

And please dont respond "a pox on both houses" unless you have a valid strategy to build a 3rd house that is free and clear of corruption and can gather 65 million votes plus Congressional and electoral college majourities.

Or start "a movement" one blog mind at a time. Lol

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 27 2019 14:23 utc | 164

The CIA was established by Act of Congress, so Trump cannot abolish it by himself. But the system of security classifications exists solely by virtue of Executive Orders, so that Trump by himself can, for example, deny the CIA the power to classify anything merely by issuing a new Executive Order.

Posted by: lysias | Sep 27 2019 14:33 utc | 165

donkeytale @184:

Feeding at the Russian dinfo trough is no different than feeding at any disinfo trough.

Except that MoA and others have repeatedly shown that what the West calls "Russian disinfo" is often truths that the Western power structure suppress or manipulates. And sometimes Western alt-media truth-tellers are smeared as Russian agents because they tell inconvenient truths.

Establishment shills pretend that truth-telling that weakens the current corrupt Western establishment benefits USA/Western adversaries, ergo these truth-tellers must be Russian agents. As most here are aware, the most prominent application of this donkey-logic has been to Assange.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2019 14:36 utc | 166

Paul Damascene with Trump Dernagement Syndrome

His only chance is to Russianise the US political system.

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 27 2019 14:37 utc | 167

The whistleblower statute used here (50 USC sec. 3033) is limited to whistleblowing on activities and/or individuals supervised by the DNI. Neither Trump nor his phone calls are the proper subject of such a complaint. As the complaint is improper on its face, it seems it’s true purpose was for the US NatSec and it’s allies in Congress to publicize potentially embarrassing information concerning Trump. Frankly, it reeks of a Deep State coup attempt.

Posted by: TimmyB | Sep 27 2019 14:45 utc | 168

So, while lurking around and following threads, I came across what looks to be John Solomon's Scribd site, where he's saved a document purporting to be a sworn witness statement where Shokin states his reasons for why he believes Biden did push Poroshenko to fire him, and specifically to fire him because he would not stop investigating Burisma. See here.

"8. The truth is that I was forced out because I was leading a wide-ranging corruption probe into Burisma Holdings ("Burisma"), a natural gas firm active in Ukraine, and Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, was a member of the Board of Directors. I assume Burisma, which was connected with gas extraction, had the support of the US Vice-President Joe Biden because his son was on the Board of Directors.

9. On several occasions President Poroshenko asked me to have a look at the criminal case against Burisma and consider the possibility of winding down the investigative actions in respect of this company, but I refused to close this investigation. Therefore, I was forced to leave office, under direct and intense pressure from Joe Biden and the US administration. In my conversation with Poroshenko at the time, he was emphatic that I should cease my investigations regarding Burisma. When I did not, he said that the US (via Biden) were refusing to release the USD$ 1 billion promised to Ukraine. He said that he had no choice, therefore, but to ask me to resign.

10. When Poroshenko asked me to resign, the way that he put it to me was that he was making it for the good of our country, and that I should agree, also as an act of patriotism. I agreed to tender my resignation on this basis."

How would someone go about verifying this document?

Posted by: ChRo | Sep 27 2019 14:56 utc | 169

Ive seen less sidewinding by rattlesnakes than on this thread starting with b's essay on down.

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 27 2019 14:57 utc | 170

B, I’d like to point out it’s not ‘the Ukraine’. Only ‘Ukraine’ since the dissolving of the USSR.

Posted by: Zim | Sep 27 2019 15:04 utc | 171


Just deleted some 30+ sockpuppet comments by "joe" "smith" "Asiz" and a bunch of other fake names (I also deleted some references to them)

Sorry for the messed up numbering.

Posted by: b | Sep 27 2019 15:08 utc | 172

Posted by: joe | Sep 27 2019 9:26 utc | 153

Ah, you forget ...

at crossroads: A tool for the West or a friend of China?

China will surpass Russia by 2020 as Ukraine’s largest single trading partner. In 2018, bilateral trade between Beijing and Kiev reached US$9.8 billion, a staggering increase since 2014 – and more than double the value of trade between Ukraine and the United States

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2019 14:36 utc | 179
Russia has a professional disinfo campaign same as "the West" versus Russia.
Last time I looked Russian journalist Ivan Golunov was
released with official support versus a corrupt judge and police.

Western eg the British court system can be extremely arbitrary when you look at the case of
Julian Assange who sits in prison for "nothing" because
they want to be sure where he is when they decide to extradite him to the US -
though he is an Australian citizen.
Whilst Dimitri Firtash in Austria has no problem staying out of prison.
When you fight against an existing power structure the court system is rigged, wherever you go.
In Germany internal secret service people were allowed to "forget" or keep silent
without any consequences when asked about the right wing murders of - mostly -
citizens of Turkish/Kurdish origin.

I guess Western propaganda views of Russia are as distorted of Russian propaganda views of "the West".
The interesting thing is that there is a convergence of the views of Conservative Evangelicals
and European anti-refugee populist parties with RT.
Maybe because authoritarian psychology is the same all over the world.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 27 2019 15:12 utc | 173

@ Timmy B 171
Right, this complaint does not fall under the law, and the DNI has said so.
from WaPo:

On Aug. 12, an intelligence community employee submitted a complaint to acting inspector general Michael Atkinson, who concluded the report was urgent and credible and forwarded it to Maguire.

Maguire, however, did not send it to the intelligence committees within seven days, as the statute requires, and failed to give the whistleblower guidance on how to securely contact the committees directly. Since then, Maguire has also refused to comply with a subpoena issued by the House Intelligence Committee, compelling him to produce an unredacted copy of the whistleblower complaint.

In a Sept. 17 letter to Schiff, Maguire’s general counsel, Jason Klitenic, said the whistleblower complaint was determined not to be an “urgent concern.”

The law did not require the director of national intelligence to forward it to Congress because it involved “conduct by someone outside the Intelligence Community and did not relate to any ‘intelligence activity within the responsibility and authority of the DNI,’ ” he claimed.

Klitenic also said the complaint involved “confidential and potentially privileged communications.” Disclosure would violate the president’s authority to control classified information and the whistleblower and inspector general were barred from sending the information directly to Congress, he said.On Aug. 12, an intelligence community employee submitted a complaint to acting inspector general Michael Atkinson, who concluded the report was urgent and credible and forwarded it to Maguire.. .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 27 2019 15:13 utc | 174

ChRo @172

Biden covered his tracks. Nothing will come of it. IMO the whole mess is essentially a distraction.

Distraction from what? My guess is that it's a distraction from the fact that USA is on the cusp of war with Iran.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2019 15:20 utc | 175

Ukr.-Biden-Burisma ties were known long ago. (Perhaps not the details bruited recently.)

The time-line is quite tight, informative.

19 Feb 2014

Vice-President Joe Biden called Ukraine's president, Viktor Yanukovych, to express "grave concern"
and to request the pullback of government forces and the exercise of maximum restraint. - Telegraph.

14 May 2014

White House Says no issue with Biden's son, Ukraine gas company. - Reuters

21 April 2014

Joe Biden travels to Ukraine for the first time, “to show support in crisis” and so on. (news)

8 June 2014

ethical concerns raised

7 June 2014

Poroshenko sworn in as Prez. Hunter Biden was there at the Ceremony. (news)

Oct 3 2014

RT Biden says US 'embarrassed' EU into sanctioning Russia over Ukraine. (!)

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 27 2019 15:44 utc | 176

According to Firefox Reader View gizmo the link in...

Arioch | Sep 27 2019 7:59 utc | 135 uses Underline
characters as word separators instead of hyphens.
Hyphens allow wordwrap. Underline chars don't.
Dotage or cohencidence?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 27 2019 16:01 utc | 177

@ Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 27 2019 14:20 utc | 165

So you've got nothing then. We figured. Navalny, really? You were twice asked for a single credible example to substantiate your "Putin … jails and disqualifies his political opponents from running against him." If Putin is the nefarious figure we are constantly told he is, surely this should be easy.

Posted by: Stygg | Sep 27 2019 16:09 utc | 178

the claim of Navalny, today in 2019, being a "credible political opponent" is either willful or naïve spreading of the same boring propaganda.

in anything, Navalny is not oppressed by shielded from punishment for crimes that he willfully did in public to show how untouchable he is

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 16:17 utc | 179

...BUT shielded

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 16:18 utc | 180

Re: Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 27 2019 16:01 utc

1. mangling normal words you probably sought to inject some creative puzzles to your message, but it flew over me. However they might enrich experience for your other readers.
2. if you want to know why makes links the way they want to make their links you might ask
3. the underscore may be disallowed to wrap words, if the owner of site wants so. They also me be allowed to wrap words.

[b here

If Arioch would learn to make correct links in which the URL is not repeated in the text field other users would not have problems with his comments.

Next time Arioch posts such inappropriatly formated links he will be banned.


Posted by: Arioch | Sep 27 2019 16:24 utc | 181

- My personal take on the impeachment is that the Democrats are pretty well aware how Biden and his son have "influenced" ukrainian "policies/political decisions" and are afraid that more "dirt" regarding the 2 Bidens will become public. so, they have opened a "Counter Offensive" called "Impeachment process" to distract thre general public.
- I could imagine that this is another push from the establishment, the Military Industrial Congressional Complex to get rid of the truly disgusting person called Donald Trump.

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 27 2019 16:31 utc | 182

Wow, you really scraped the bottom with this factless, fake news hit job that is full of conspiracy-driven questions and no answers. However, you have proved one thing, you've proven that you're squarely aligned with the sleaze-bag team of Trump, Giuliani, Barr and Lewandowsi who will head the team of shysters that will try to defend Trump against impeachment.

I've read some good stuff here on Iran, Venezuela and Syria, but this is definitely beneath you.

Jackrabbit, not sure if you're right but don't put that notion out there that crooked Trump could seize on to make impeachment go away.

Posted by: Circe | Sep 27 2019 16:42 utc | 183

Paul Damascene @164--

bevein @157 links to a Sputnik article that cites Solomon's work at The Hill which is based on a very rapid FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) release of damning documents that were classified for some easily explainable reason--they kill Biden's political future. That's Trump retaliating. Sputnik further reports Trump's most recent retaliatory tweet:

"If that perfect phone call with the President of Ukraine Isn’t considered appropriate, then no future President can EVER again speak to another foreign leader!" [Emphasis Original]

And on that count, Trump's 100% correct and totally wrongfoots the Ds, while Gabbard comes out looking very wise for not playing the DNC's game. As we are seeing, Trump holds the best card in the deck--rapid approval of FOIA requests, such as the one by Judicial watch I cited yesterday. Like the papers obtained by Solomon, there's a massive trove of memos, emails and such that were deemed classified only because their publication would be politically embarrassing or worse, not because they contained anything sensitive about US national security--a practice that's been ongoing for decades. The key is to know what to ask for via FOIA. In this political battle, information is the #1 weapon and ammo, and Trump sits atop the armory and ammo dump.

There're many things not to like about Trump. But, there're also many thinks not to like about the DNC. And IMO, nobody likes the Current Oligarchy. I suppose the question becomes: Is it worth having 4 more years of Trump in exchange for taking out the Clintons, the DNC and purging the bureaucracy of its CIA-tied staff/swamp critters?

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 27 2019 16:44 utc | 184

@carld... the format seems fine now.. it was screwed up last night for me...

@ donkey... i am sorry, but this insanity with you goes round and round in circles and never stops... you must be brain dead to think i am supportive of trump...i can't communicate with you! all i can say is living in the usa has had a delirious effect on your thinking process...

Posted by: james | Sep 27 2019 17:04 utc | 185

@ peter au... okay - now i am interested in reading the johnson piece, but can't find the link here on this thread...

Posted by: james | Sep 27 2019 17:07 utc | 186

karlof1 @187:

"I suppose the question becomes: Is it worth having 4 more years of Trump in exchange for taking out the Clintons, the DNC and purging the bureaucracy of its CIA-tied staff/swamp critters?"

I would not want to guess which would turn out ... less worse between those choices, it's going to be bad for lots of people, baked in.

But I think it is good to keep in mind that all this is still part of the same war among our plutocratic/managerial elites that has been going on since the Rise of Trump began. Going on five years now and Trump has not won or lost yet. This says a lot about his enemies too, their competence as well as his. Our own little Napoleon.

He is doing a really excellent job of demolishing US' hegemony, intentionally or not.

This may at some point (like now) cause desperate measures to be undertaken, certainly credibility has been abandoned some time ago. But then that all leads back to the ongoing imperial decay.

I think at this point the only way out is through. We have to go through it. Trump and his enemies going at it hammer and tongs as they fall into the abyss like Gandalf and the Balrog. What a spectacle.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 27 2019 17:23 utc | 187

Joe Lauria at Consortium News has a good piece on this.
Here's a taste:
"...We know from the leaked, early 2014 telephone conversation between Victoria Nuland, then assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, and Geoffrey Pyatt, then U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, that then Vice President Biden played a role in “midwifing” the U.S.-backed overthrow of an elected Ukrainian government soon after that conversation.

"That’s the biggest crime in this story that isn’t being told. The illegal overthrow of a sovereign government.

"As booty from the coup, the sitting vice president’s son, Hunter Biden, soon got a seat on the board of Ukraine’s biggest gas producer, Burisma Holdings. This can only be seen as a transparently neocolonial maneuver to take over a country and install one’s own people. But Biden’s son wasn’t the only one.

"A family friend of then Secretary of State John Kerry also joined Burisma’s board. U.S. agricultural giant Monsanto got a Ukrainian contract soon after the overthrow. And the first, post-coup Ukrainian finance minister was an American citizen, a former State Department official, who was given Ukrainian citizenship the day before she took up the post.

"After a Ukrainian prosecutor began looking into possible corruption at Burisma, Biden openly admitted at a conference last year that as vice president he withheld a $1 billion credit line to Ukraine until the government fired the prosecutor. As Biden says himself, it took only six hours for it to happen...."

there really isn't much more to be said except, to the Biden apologists, 'Give your heads a shake.'

Posted by: bevin | Sep 27 2019 17:26 utc | 188

Had Trump just asked about crowdstike, or corruption in general, or even the 2016 elections, he would have been in the clear but how is U.S. national security advanced by specifically bringing in the Bidens?
Christian J Chuba #23

That's utterly barmy. For those following events in Ukraine during the attempted US takeover, the Biden shenanigans (far more was involved than the energy sector) were BIG news over much of the years 2014-2016. The Bidens were much bigger protagonists after the coup than names like Nuland and Pyatt.

Posted by: Plod | Sep 27 2019 17:31 utc | 189

@peter au.. lol! i was the one who posted johnsons piece!!! no wonder i didn't see it.. but i did read it.. thanks!

Posted by: james | Sep 27 2019 17:32 utc | 190

I went back to look at the passage in which, as the Duran interview
examines at length, Biden is actually mentioned in Trump's conversation
with Ukraine's President. (The transcript is linked in b's previous
post) Here is the passage describing the conversation immediately
following that reference:

"President Zellensky: I wanted to tell you about the
prosecutor. First of a11, I understand and I'm knowledgeable
about the situation. Since we have won the absolute majority in
our Parliament, the next prosecutor general will be 100% my
person, my candidate, who will be approved by the parliament and
will start as a new prosecutor in September. He or she will look
into the situation, specifically to the company that you
mentioned in this issue. The issue of the investigation of the
case is actually the issue of making sure to restore the honesty
so we will take care of that and will work on the investigation
of the case. On top of that, I would kindly ask you if you have
any additional information that you can provide to us, it would_
be very helpful for the investigation to make sure that we
administer justice in our country..."

As far as I can see, The Duran is correct in saying that the Biden
issue concerns prosecutorial matters in Ukraine with respect to
the company itself which may or may not involve Biden's son. And
in that respect, for Biden to have, as he himself boasted, influenced
the removal of the prosecutor, an Ukranian prosecutor, is something
more serious than whether or not the son had been appropriately
appointed. There is a quid and a quo in that situation for which it
really doesn't matter whether Biden has talked with his son about
company matters or not. But all the same, as b has pointed out, there
is no equivalent quid and quo being orchestrated here by Trump. The
assurance Zellensky is giving is that he will be able to appoint his
own team and not the team of the previous administration.

The interesting part of The Duran's analysis for me was that there
are understandings that are unstated between the two presidents as
having come into an antagonistic scenario and how each is coping
with that, with more emphasis on Ukraine's ability to do that, but
also very interesting hints from Trump at the investigations his
DoJ is undertaking with respect to Ukraine's previous participation
in Russiagate. And that's where it gets potentially explosive, in
my view. This is Trump's immediate reaction to having been under
the microscope in that respect, and a justifiable one.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 27 2019 17:42 utc | 191

Yet again, for the umpteenth time, a story involving the Ukraine gets hijacked by posts about its name. In fact every damn time Ukraine is the story.

Did the PhilTrolly who threw in the chum even both to stick around or respond? So.

(Good succinct explanation by nemo, should be pinned to to top of anything b writes on Ukraine.)

B, I’d like to point out balh blah blah... Zim #174
Oh, for Pete's sake

Posted by: Plod | Sep 27 2019 17:45 utc | 192

@172 - thank you for finding Shokin's testimony. It is definitely worth reading to everyone here. 12 pages. He breaks the Biden business down. I didn't know that Firtash was an additional reason for the firing as well. I thought it was all Burisma. Also, Cofer Black, also on Burisma's board was Mitt Romney's advisor in 2012. saw that on ZH yesterday.
I've been plugging Kees Van Der Pijl's MH17 book, and I am doing again right now.
I have about 12 pages to go on Frontline Ukraine by Richard Sakwa. Very good. Pretty balanced in my very humble opinion.
Great digging ChRo!!
And b is the greatest!

Posted by: roza shanina | Sep 27 2019 18:02 utc | 193

A memorable meme from the closing lines of Patrick Armstrong's Russian Federation SITREP September 26, 2019, on the RumourBlower fiasco.

TRUMP-ZELENSKY PHONE CALL. The Democrat Party has found a new rake to step on.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 27 2019 18:15 utc | 194

Bemildred @190--

Yes, it's quite the Circus--3-4 rings of action all occurring at about the same time--where it's often difficult to tell the stuntman/women apart from the actual actor/actress as they're sometimes in two rings simultaneously! Gonna start looking for PT Barnum soon.

Every D that jumped the gun on this is going to be pulling egg off their face and out of their hair for months!! It boggles my mind at their ineptitude. All that remains is for Biden to publicly proclaim: I am not a crook.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 27 2019 18:34 utc | 195

That the drive to impeach was initiated and okayed by the Current Oligarchy is now all but confirmed as this article reports:

"While there is certainly no top level U.S. official from recent administrations who can claim with a straight face to have clean hands when it comes to the manner in which the world's wealthiest and most militarized country operates in the world, more than 300 former national security professionals—all of whom served under former presidents Barack Obama, George W. Bush, or both—publicly called out President Donald Trump on Friday for what they say is an 'unconscionable abuse of power' and flagrant violation of his oath of office.

"'President Trump appears to have leveraged the authority and resources of the highest office in the land to invite additional foreign interference into our democratic processes,' the former officials wrote in a joint public statement [Link at Original]." [My Emphasis]

All nicely attuned and organized together in such a timely manner is one of the hallmarks of all BigLie Media Color Revolution supports we've all seen over the last 25+ years, which could only be arranged by the Current Oligarchy whom they all previously worked for, as I highlighted. Too bad their missive is beaten by the document dump employed by Solomon at The Hill, and will suffer a further beatdown when the docs requested by Judicial Watch are released. The seeming gross ineptitude of the Current Oligarchy thus begs this question: What's the actual motive for defending Biden and okaying the attempted impeachment of Trump? In other words, I don't believe the stupidity being displayed by the Current Oligarchy is genuine, although I won't totally discount it-- a 1% chance, IMO.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 27 2019 18:57 utc | 196

Not being a citizen of the US it's none of my business how their national politics are played out. Wierd to watch, but not my business. What I'm wondering is whether any non-US government leader would want to have a telephone conversation with this or any other US president knowing the transcript could be plastered all over the world in some US domestic political spat. Mr. Zelensky takes the collateral damage this time. Who's next? It appears evident that none of the US players give a hoot about anything or anyone outside their sandbox.

Posted by: Tourtière | Sep 27 2019 18:59 utc | 197

I see Craig Murray's current piece is linked to above, but with no real additional discussion/disclosure of its contents, which are quite damning:

"Crowdstrike also made the claim that the same Russia hackers – “Fancy Bear” – who hacked the DNC, hacked Ukrainian artillery software causing devastating losses of Ukrainian artillery. This made large headlines at the time. What did not make any MSM headlines was the subsequent discovery that all of this never happened and the artillery losses were entirely fictitious. As Crowdstrike had claimed that it was the use of the same coding in the DNC hack as in the preceding (non-existent) Ukraine artillery hack, that proved Russia hacked the DNC, this is pretty significant. Trump was questioning Zelensky about rumours the 'hacked' DNC server was hidden in the Ukraine by Crowdstrike. The media has no interest in reporting any of that at all.

"It is plain in that case that Trump is the media’s villain and the Bidens, father and son, are therefore heroes being protected by the Establishment media." [My Emphasis]

Murray's conclusion is likely shared by the vast majority of barflies:

"The fascinating thing is the binary, good versus evil, narrative which is being pursued in the liberal media. Trump and Johnson are bad. Therefore Hunter Biden and Brendan Cox must be good. The truth, of course, is much more complex than that. I am afraid to say that if you want an excessive simplification, a more accurate one would be that the entire political elite on all sides are self-serving and venal."

Yes, and the public interest's desired results get turned topsy-turvy.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 27 2019 19:21 utc | 198

Tourtière @198--

I beg to differ, sir, and assert that this is indeed your business. What occurs politically within the Outlaw US Empire almost always has an external affect, just as when its lies and empty assertions are echoed by other governments without thinking. As you note in your comment, what leader will be willing to be candid with the POTUS when what seemed innocent can get dragged into a domestic political spat.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 27 2019 19:29 utc | 199

@ karlof1 199
spooks: "'President Trump appears to have leveraged the authority and resources of the highest office in the land to invite additional foreign interference into our democratic processes"

Trump, like any politician, was (maybe) trying to get some information unfavorable to a potential opponent. It's done in every election. No big deal. So he asked a foreigner for some such information (maybe) because it might (or might not) benefit his candidacy, and information on candidates is what the voting citizens have a right to expect.

There's no law against a politician asking anyone, domestic or foreign, for information, on a potential election opponent. It's all helpful to citizens' determinations, even unfavorable information, because negative campaigning is an American institution. This is not "foreign interference into our democratic processes." It's a search for truth. This is just another attempt for the establishment to get Trump after three years of failure with the spook-supported "Russia collusion" false claim.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 27 2019 19:58 utc | 200

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