Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 26, 2019

Trump Pushed Ukraine's President To Investigate Issues Of U.S. Public Interest

The misguided 'impeachment inquiry" develops with the declassification and publication of the whistleblower complaint (pdf) that underlies the case.

It alleges what was publicly known even before the phone call between Trump and the Ukrainian President Zelensky was published.

During the then still ongoing Mueller investigation Rudi Giuliani, as a private lawyer for President Trump, tried to find exculpating information which he hoped would debunk the allegations of collusion between Trump and Russia.

It was known that there had been involvement of Ukraine related people as well as of Ukrainian officials in Russiagate and the election campaigns:

Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump by publicly questioning his fitness for office. They also disseminated documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers, a Politico investigation found.

How deep where these involvements? Are there Ukrainian sources in the debunked Steele dossier about Trump?

There was also the mysterious fact that just three weeks after the U.S. managed 2014 coup in Ukraine, in which Joe Biden as then U.S. vice-president was heavily involved, Joe Biden's son Hunter started to receive more that $50,000 per month for being on the board of a Ukrainian gas company even though he had no knowledge of the gas business or the Ukraine.

In April the then Prosecutor General of the Ukraine Lutsenko was quoted in The Hill mentioning the above allegations.

Giuliani hoped that the Ukraine would investigate both issues and would find facts that might help to exculpate Trump. He openly spoke about this in several TV appearances and interviews since at least March 2019.

On July 24 the Mueller investigation into Russiagate closed. On July 25 Trump had a phone call with Zelensky in which Trump mildly pressed for further Ukrainian investigations into both issues, the Ukrainian involvement in Russigate and the U.S. election and the case of Hunter Biden. Zelensky responded that he would so. He later said that he found the telephone call "normal".

The whistleblower, presumably someone of medium to higher rank in the CIA, is concerned that Trump's request to Zelensky is a "serious or flagrant problem, abuse, or violation of law or Executive Order" that justify his action.

The Democrats in Congress will make similar claims. But there are reasons to see the issue completely differently.

Attorney General Barr has opened an investigation into the roots of the debunked Russiagate claims. An investigation on the ground in the Ukraine could surely help to find evidence proving or disproving Ukrainian involvement in it.

Biden had publicly bragged to have blackmailed the then Ukrainian President Poroshenko into firing the then Prosecutor General of the Ukraine Shokin. Shokin had at that time an open case against the owner of the Ukrainian company Biden's son worked for. Biden's intervention smells of corruption or at least undue interference by a U.S. official for personal reasons.

Trump can reasonable argue that investigations in the Ukraine into both issues are in the U.S. public interest.

Did Ukrainian officials interfere in the 2016 election by creating or hyping the debunked Russiagate affair and by supporting the Clinton campaign? Alleged Russian interference in the election was a big issue. Why is Ukrainian interference not of interest?

Did Joe Biden use his influence to get his unqualified son a high paying job in Ukraine? Did he use his official powers as vice president to the advantage of Hunter Biden's employer?

Has the U.S. public an interest in knowing the answers to these questions?

If it has such interest why shouldn't the president concern himself with pushing the Ukrainian president to investigate the issues?

Posted by b on September 26, 2019 at 14:37 UTC | Permalink

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This is a classic case of Clinton manipulations. Biden is the only dem candidate who could challenge her for the nomination. The clinton machine is the force behind the whistleblower complaint. She is only waiting for the democrat candidate field to thin, before she announces her candidacy. She gets to avoid all the debates and with there being no clear front runner who polls as decisively beating trump, she will be a shoo-in.

This is going to be the nastiest election season ever.

b4real

Posted by: b4real | Sep 26 2019 14:56 utc | 1

I firmly believe that the public face of those who rule the US is a unipolar political party that I call the Kayfabe Party.

The "Ukrainian Affair" is yet another chapter in the never-ending staged Presnitial Match where the "limited hang-out" Biden Clan makes another move towards the "heel" Trump's 2020 "victory" while shielding the Dems "babyface" 2024 wannabe's.

Sorry for all the "Air Quotes", but that's what kayfabe is all about.

Posted by: Enrico Malatesta | Sep 26 2019 15:12 utc | 2

b:

Did Joe Biden use his influence to get his unqualified son a high paying job in Ukraine? Did he use his official powers as vice president to the advantage of Hunter Biden's employer?

Did Trump appoint family members to government positions? Did Trump block attempts to understand what conflicts of interest he may have by not releasing his tax returns as all candidates for high office did previously? Did Trump chose Pence (McCain's guy), Bolton (neocon guy), Haspel (Brennan's gal), Barr (Bush's guy and Mueller's friend) and others as part of a 'deal' with the Deep State to win the 2016 Presidential election? Was Trump the nationalist that Kissinger called for in his 2014 WSJ Op-Ed in which he called for MAGA as a strategy for meeting the challenge from Russia and China?

Is Biden just another Deep State political operative that is playing a part? Another "flawed candidate" (like Hillary) for MAGA Trump to trounce?

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>

Is this latest farce just a nothing-burger distraction from the fact that we are on the brink of war?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 26 2019 15:52 utc | 3

Just think, another year of this still to come. The final shootout between Trump and his enemies over who is the bigger crook and traitor; and lucky Ukraine the mark in both cases. Wow. Zelenski looked like he swallowed a bug when Trump started running his big mouth.

Posted by: Bemildred | Sep 26 2019 16:04 utc | 4

Is it really necessary to say "the Ukraine", when "Ukraine" would suffice? Maybe I'm confused as to why some people refer to Ukraine as "the Ukraine". Otherwise, thanks for the article.

Posted by: PillBillly | Sep 26 2019 16:10 utc | 5

- entertaining
- educational
- embarrassing

Mr Magoo goes to Washington.

You know he's close to the mark when they start acting really stupid.

"Let me tell you: You take on the intelligence community — they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you," said Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer.

Posted by: jared | Sep 26 2019 16:28 utc | 6

"If it has such interest why shouldn't the president concern himself with pushing the Ukrainian president to investigate the issues?"

There are much better ways for one country to influence another's legal processes. When Trump conducted his phone call with Zelensky, he stupidly said words that would end up in a transcript and come back to haunt him, like currently is happening. It just points to the inability of Trump's "advisers" to keep him in check.

Of course, one could say that this is all a calculated political strategy. We'll just have to see how it plays out. And it is reasonable to see that Democrats have to follow the evidence towards a possible impeachment. Otherwise they totally abdicate their role conducting oversight. The executive branch in the U.S. has been accumulating more and more power (and yes, even under Obama), and Congress is becoming less and less relevant as a result. At some point it either has to rebalance, or the trend towards autocracy continues.

And yes, there could be subterfuge in Clintonian circles tossing Biden out as red meat. But he did do what he is implicated in, and his son Hunter took absolute advantage of his father's position in the Obama admin when he got on the Board of Directors of Burma. His position there was rife with corruption.

Posted by: JC | Sep 26 2019 16:28 utc | 7

PillBilly, "the Ukraine" was coined in the TV sitcom Seinfeld. When Kramer and Newman were playing Risk in the subway train Kramer said "the Ukraine is weak" a passenger in the train that happened to be Ukrainian overheard and smashed their risk board screaming "u insult the Ukraine! I'm from Ukraine. The Ukraine is strong!!"

Posted by: Comandante | Sep 26 2019 16:29 utc | 8

thanks b... good questions and i think the public has a right to answers... however, it seems like another huge distraction too and a lot of political theatre - which seems like a distraction as well.. what is all this distraction for? the usa voting publics choices are horrible..

Posted by: james | Sep 26 2019 16:29 utc | 9

@ jackrabbit 4

Good point(s). And why and how did his daughter marry that Dorian Gray figure?

Posted by: Jayne | Sep 26 2019 16:35 utc | 10

All this becomes entertaining. After the russiagate we now have Ukraine that interferes in the next elections. UkrainGate has a future.

Posted by: alwo | Sep 26 2019 16:35 utc | 11

The Ukraine vs Ukraine. In English, some countries have "the" in the name, the Netherlands, the Sudan, and the Ukraine. However, few years ago the government of The Ukraine requested that in English it should be called Ukraine, no "the". Why Slavic people should be sensitive about article that they do not use (except for Bulgarian and northern Macedonians), I do not know.

The bottom line is that "the Ukraine" is traditional, and "Ukraine" is new, improved.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 26 2019 16:37 utc | 12

I still recall the TV show "Our Gang." Of course, inherent in that name is the implied "everyone has a gang, this one's ours."

Nothing additional happening here except the criminality of the two plus gangs in question. Turf fight likely to lead to the destruction of one or both gangs.

Color me happy. Twist, turn, hammer, nail, but by all means, kill em. Chapter 3. I predict popcorn and beer.

Posted by: jt | Sep 26 2019 16:39 utc | 13

Good, strong argument, b! At the time, the Ukraine "government" in many respects was merely an arm of the Obama Whitehouse/CIA cabal as communications and events clearly show. Since Trump's election, that connection was deeply downgraded but not completely severed. Then Zelensky was elected, and he needed to establish a positive relationship with his ultimate master, Trump. The overtness of Giuliani's activities is a major plus, along with the ineptitude of the DoJ holdovers from Obama in the Russiagate debacle, as well as the Cases against Flynn & Rafiekian, the latter's having just been dismissed which ought to be shared by Flynn. Then there's plenty of dirt to be mined from the Nuland "Fuck the EU" tape that was never put to good use.

This tweet's contents go beyond what b and others are saying:

"Techno_Fog Consider this: the #Democrats are really freaking out because @realDonaldTrump @POTUS
#AGBarr and #JohnDurham have caught on to the crimes of #Crowdstike and it's role in the #RussiaHoax and #Spygate @KerriKupecDOJ, #FISAabuses, #NSA 4th Amendment violations."

That's a lot of meat for the grinder. I wrote yesterday that IMO it was too late for Trump to deal with Hillary Clinton. Well, it looks like I was premature as this gets at the Clinton Machine from another angle; and IMO, it's very much in the nation's interest to deal with the law breaking and corruption of that bunch. There's so much corruption and unlawful activity occurring now and in the past that its unraveling must begin somewhere if the citizenry is to ever regain control of the federal government. No, I'm not extolling Trump; I am indicting the Clintons, DNC, the Current Oligarchy, and all their minions.


Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 16:45 utc | 14

@JR Countdown to War? Since when haven't we been on a countdown to another war?
But if you mean in the short-term a war against Iran, then you clearly haven't followed recent developments eloquently described here by b and others.. or are you just spreading more FUD for us to observe?

Posted by: Lozion | Sep 26 2019 16:52 utc | 15

Really good conversation that gets to the heart of the new UkraineGate that has morphed from RussiaGate, that you will not hear on the corporate media.

Jimmy Dore: FULL Story About Trump/Biden Ukraine Corruption Media Ignores w/Aaron Mate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1BsWtp1d6w

Posted by: Stever | Sep 26 2019 16:59 utc | 16

Jr @ 4; YEP!

DJT vs. Biden= Crook vs. Crook..

Not rocket science..

Posted by: ben | Sep 26 2019 17:00 utc | 17

" Biden's intervention smells of corruption or at least undue interference by a U.S. official for personal reasons."

Such interventions are bad for many reasons. Law enforcement ideally is about the law and not political gains. Heavy handed firing and hiring prosecutors according to whom they managed to prosecute (preferably, political opponents) and whom they stayed away from (preferably, political allies plus all kin and kith of the current people on top) is at best frown upon. A more enlightened approach (semi-enlightened?) is to do it discreetly, without bragging.

In case of "friendly, but heavy-handed" foreign pressure, lack of discretion turns the obedient target to laughing stock. We should not begrudge Russians and "Russian speakers" additional occasions for levity, but the morale among hapless Ukrainians surely took a hit.
Biden's exploits were noted with some chortling a long time ago, but now there is a slew of new articles like
----------
"To give or not to give"

One cannot envy the new president of independent* Ukraine. He has to choose between Joe Biden (the most serious Democratic candidate) becoming his enemy, or Donald Trump, the current president. If he finds kompromat (compromizing materials) on Biden and gives them to Trump, Biden and his Democratic allies will become enemies, but if he fails, Trump will be an enemy. [implications that alliance with Russia would not have such dire consequences]

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 26 2019 17:08 utc | 18

Ukrainian nationalists hate the name to have an article at the beginning because it reads in their minds as "the borderland" which is the root of the word "Ukraine". So much of their mythology turns on their being a separate people that have existed since all time! lol! In fact the concept of a Ukrainian people is very modern and most importantly, imposed from outside...originating with Polish occupiers and reinforced in Galicia by the Hapsburg Empire during the 19th and early 20th century. Ukrainians were, and still are, Russians with Stockholm syndrome. When the communists created the Ukrainian republic and pushed the self identity of it's inhabitants toward an ethnic identity separate from Russian, the seeds of the current trouble were sown.

Posted by: nemo | Sep 26 2019 17:10 utc | 19

@realDonaldTrump @POTUS #AGBarr and #JohnDurham have caught on to the crimes of #Crowdstike and it's role in the #RussiaHoax and #Spygate @KerriKupecDOJ, #FISAabuses, #NSA 4th Amendment violations."
...
There's so much corruption and unlawful activity occurring now and in the past that its unraveling must begin somewhere if the citizenry is to ever regain control of the federal government.
Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 16:45 utc | 15

As I suggested on the previous thread, Barr's investigations might have been getting too hot for the Clinton Cabal. In the whole of this saga it is impossible to be sure - as far as investigations or alleged investigations are concerned - what is kabuki theatre, what is real, and what is simply real flourishes to the kabuki; but given the way any investigations into Clintongate have been so opaque from the start, I have long suspected that Trump may be planning a really big KABOOOOOM of legally tight and scandalous indictments to the criminal Clinton cabal just before the election where it will have maximum impact. The alternative that the investigations are just (or are mostly) kabuki and that all the key criminals get out of jail free is unfortunately always impossible to distinguish with clarity.

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 17:11 utc | 20

@ PillBillly | Sep 26 2019 16:10 utc | 6

“Is it really necessary to say "the Ukraine", when "Ukraine" would suffice?”

Actually, the official name of the country has been for most of its existence “The Ukraine,” which means “The Borderland,” as it sits in among several surrounding countries and has been, in whole or in part, the territory of most of those other countries at one time or another. As Mr. Berman points out above, there is now a trend toward leaving out the word “The.”

Posted by: AntiSpin | Sep 26 2019 17:14 utc | 21

Attack as the best form of defence is standard for the Dems. A psychatrist would call it projection - projecting their own sins onto someone else.
Of course Hunter, Kerrry's stepson, the China fund, Burisma and most of all Uranium One are highly corrupt deals.
Of course a deep state warrior would react by dragging these up, but probably just ending up in a stalemate of accusations.
Trump stuck to his message - that working people have been screwed by the Dems and that he would listen. It worked. It will work again, all this Dem fuss just means no one will bother to ask what Trump has actually done for the working man.

Posted by: Michael Droy | Sep 26 2019 17:18 utc | 22

Götterdämmerung

They nailed him b. Southfront captured the essence of the issue, https://southfront.org/know-your-place-white-house-declassified-zelensky-conversation-memo-despite-protests-from-kiev/

Had Trump just asked about crowdstike, or corruption in general, or even the 2016 elections, he would have been in the clear but how is U.S. national security advanced by specifically bringing in the Bidens?

Had Trump inquired about the Biden's after a Biden loss in the primary or the general election was over, again, he would have been in the clear. But by asking about him prior to these elections Trump used the Executive Branch to gain advantage over a political opponent. This is what we call abuse of power.

Will he be removed from office, no, but it will be an extremely destructive fight in the U.S. We deserve it. The trouble we have visited on others is now returning to us. We are color revolutioning ourselves.
I titled this Götterdämmerung to signify how we in the U.S. are destroying each other. In www.realclearpolitics.com I have never seen articles this contentious, even in the Trump era.

Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Sep 26 2019 17:19 utc | 23

or are you just spreading more FUD for us to observe?
Posted by: Lozion | Sep 26 2019 16:52 utc | 16

He has never been known to do anything else, so yes, just more FUD.

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 17:21 utc | 24

Oh my. I'm going giddy. Takes me back to the Maidan, Cookies, Chalupa, et al. when I first came across MoA.

And here we are again. At the beginning of all the fun and games. Thanks B, now I can follow the whole shebang.

Just called in to point at the boys in The Duran. 45 mins and starts off with Pelosi, but goes into a lot of detail on Biden, Giulliani, Crowdstrike, etc. And attempts by the media to shut town the debate.

Pelosi's Impeachment bluff hides real Ukraine story; CrowdStrike, Soros & Hillary servers in Kiev

In any case, the lads at The Duran are doing a great job on many other subjects too. (And Mercouris is the best tea mug salesman I've ever met in my life)

Posted by: El Sid | Sep 26 2019 17:24 utc | 25

This is an extract from a tweet linked over at Xymphora's Sept 26 post..

The Biden corruption story is not one invented by Trump. In fact, it was covered by the NY Times last May. And it includes a roster of not just the Biden family but Obama, Clinton & Kerry sycophants getting rich in Ukraine as well. This is horrifying.

I'm not a NYT subscriber but it's probably worth a subscriber's time to search NYT May, 2019 archive for Biden/Ukraine stories...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 26 2019 17:31 utc | 26

"Did Joe Biden use his influence to get his unqualified son a high paying job in Ukraine? Did he use his official powers as vice president to the advantage of Hunter Biden's employer?

Has the U.S. public an interest in knowing the answers to these questions?"

All worthy of investigation, but not an investigation by Ukraine.

Posted by: Jay | Sep 26 2019 17:33 utc | 27

@25 BM. Yep but it needs to called for what it is though for the benefit of newer patrons..

Posted by: Lozion | Sep 26 2019 17:41 utc | 28

it reads in their minds as "the borderland" which is the root of the word "Ukraine".
Posted by: nemo | Sep 26 2019 17:10 utc | 20

The same applies to the Netherlands, which just means "the Low Countries", which phrase is also sometimes used to refer to the region (technically including Belgium which until the defeat of Napoleon was the border between France and the Netherlands). The meaning in Dutch and German is more directly obvious.

Just as the Netherlands are almost entirely very close to sea level, an example of the borderland nature of the Ukraine is the longstanding contrast between the more West-European western half of the Ukraine and the less West-European influenced eastern half. Also worth noting is that for several hundred years the actual border between Russia (including the Ukraine) and its western neighbour (usually Germany/Prussia, except during the fleeting periods that Poland has existed) has frequently moved to and fro in accordance with the results of constant military skirmishes between the two sides. Thus "The Borderlands" were literally border lands, residents being sometimes on one side of the border, sometimes on the other.

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 17:47 utc | 29

b is barking up several wrong trees with this ill considered piece. He's missing the important point that Christian J Chuba makes above.

Had Trump inquired about the Biden's after a Biden loss in the primary or the general election was over, again, he would have been in the clear. But by asking about him prior to these elections Trump used the Executive Branch to gain advantage over a political opponent. This is what we call abuse of power.

b can bring to bear all the smoke screens from the past in Ukraine and Russiagate that he wishes exhale but none of it distracts from the actual point of this investigation which Mr. Chuba so clearly makes.

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 26 2019 17:50 utc | 30

> Trump can reasonable argue that investigations in the Ukraine into both issues are in the U.S. public interest

he can, but he also better be ready to argue why those issues became "public interest" on 2019 July 25th, and not any day before or after.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2019 17:56 utc | 31

@15 karlof1... i agree with you there is a lot to be minded from the victoria nuland and etc zone...

@ 24 christian... there is a clear dog fight among the 2 parties, with the cia-fbi in the background pulling a lot of levers... i don't agree with you in how you break it down..

Posted by: james | Sep 26 2019 18:03 utc | 32

Aaron Mate explains to Jimmy Dore why Ukrainegate is a nothing-burger

>> The prosecutor was thought to be corrupt and was dragging his feet on many prosecutions (this was the same prosecutor that had refused to prosecute Yulia Tymoshenko years before);

>> Many people (including Western European allies) were calling for the prosecutor's removal;

>> After the prosecutor left, an investigation proceeded and ultimately resulted in a settlement in which the company paid a fine.


Biden wasn't operating on his own authority. In the video where he brags about demanding that the Ukrainian prosecutor be removed, he makes it clear that Obama wanted the prosecutor removed.

Ultimately, it is very likely that neither Trump nor Biden will be found to have committed any offense. This whole affair is a nothing-burger.

Instead of debating the merits of this nothing-burger, we should be asking WHY TPTB want to distract us.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 26 2019 18:06 utc | 33

he can, but he also better be ready to argue why those issues became "public interest" on 2019 July 25th, and not any day before or after.
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2019 17:56 utc | 32

Your criticism is misdirection. The timing was perfectly correct (although arguably excessively so) - the fraudulent Muellergate investigation was closed the day before, so Trump could not be accused of obstructing an ongoing "investigation" (even though it never was a genuine investigation).

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 18:08 utc | 34

However, few years ago the government of The Ukraine requested that in English it should be called Ukraine, no "the". Why Slavic people should be sensitive about article that they do not ue

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 26 2019 16:37 utc

It is not Slavic people, it is specifically Ukrainian quirk.

And it is not only for English, they also always insisted on teaching Russian language to Russians, for years and years. There is comes as a "proper" choice between "in Ukraine" vs "on Ukraine", with the latter being traditional form, that Ukrainians jump out of pants to protest.

Explanation is, that etymologically "ukraine" means frontier, borderlands. Whether it first meant forntier of Poland or one of many fontiers of Russia is not clear and hardly relevant today.

But Ukrainians, especially "nationally-aware" ones, a hyper sensitive to the origin of their name. One might ask, why won't they just change the country name that offend them so?.. People of "elefant bones coast" did just this, for example.

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2019 18:14 utc | 35

A mayor untruth easily identifiable in the "whistleblower complaint" is that the guy claims that Trump tried to pressure Z into keeping the prosecutor general Lutsenko who he "praised" and who came up with "allegations" involving Biden etc.

If you read the phone call memo it is obvious that Trump is praising Shokhin, the prosecutor general fired by Porky on behalf of Biden. And Z tells Trump that he will put in "100% my guy" as new prosecutor general (replacing Lutsenko), to which Trump has no objection at all.

So this is bollocks heard through the grapevine at best.

Posted by: CE | Sep 26 2019 18:15 utc | 36

Your criticism is misdirection.

the fraudulent Muellergate investigation was closed the day before, so Trump could not be accused of obstructing an ongoing "investigation"

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 18:08 utc

Waiving off questions as "evil" is not answering them. Actually it was the tactics that "fraudulent Muellergate" adepts are using for all the years, it suits them fine, but does not suit those annoying critics.

Trump was anyway accused of obstruction whatever he does and does not. And while i cam see how inqueries into DNC hack cultists from Crowdstrike can be seen interfering with Muellergate, why did not he inquieried into Burisma Holdings earlier?

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2019 18:21 utc | 37

James

You are missing the point along with most other posters and also b. Intellectual dishonesty becomes you all.

Chuba has it exactly correct.

You are all long too used to overlooking and excusing Putin when he jails and disqualifies his political opponents from running against him. This is Trump's attempt to move towards Russianising the US political system. If this gets excused there is no telling what comes next.

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 26 2019 18:21 utc | 38

I'm with B. on this.

It's obvious enough so far that anyone who's been nurturing a strong belief that Trump needs to be, or ought to be, removed from office ASAP are predisposed to take every "bombshell" and "smoking gun" at face value.

This faction is not limited to acute TDS (Trump Derangement Syndrome) sufferers, who regard Trump as a foul and villanous Usurper who (with the help of the corrupt or decadent Electoral College) heinously blocked Empress-in-Waiting Clinton from ascending to her rightful place on the Oval Office Throne.

It also includes self-identified "progressives" and would-be leftists who aren't necessarily sympathetic towards Clinton and the Democratic Party, but buy into the notion that since many of Trump's actions and policies in office, and/or his well-known history of shady business dealings, establish that he is so obviously a man of "high crimes and misdemeanors" that he is indeed unfit for office and ripe for impeachment.

Some "alternative" news/opinion journalists and pundits either share or implicitly condone an attitude of, "Well, the Zelensky call is just the latest in a series of fairly flimsy frames. But, hey, Trump is manifestly a war criminal and self-serving Mafia-type über-gangster, so he certainly deserves to be impeached." They seem oblivious or indifferent to the noxious "the end justifies the means" element in this perspective.

Put another way, only persons already wearing Impeachment Goggles are ready, willing, and able to see this latest Beltway/Ukraine imbroglio as-- at last!-- a clear-cut instance of Trump "crossing the line" into High Crime territory.

I subscribe to the view that this is the institutional "Resistance"'s attempt to revive the discredited and unpopular "Russian collusion" narrative by flipping it into a "Ukraine skulduggery" narrative. Thus, as with the failed "Russian collusion" frame, Impeachment-Goggle wearers vehemently insist on isolating an ostensible rotten tree or two, while studiously ignoring the haunted forest.

Of course, it remains to be seen whether escalating this contretemps into an Official Impeachment Inquiry will succeed in stampeding an ambivalent public into a wholesale disgust with Trump that will destroy either his administration or his candidacy.

Despite the predictable high-minded rhetoric about upholding noble principles like the Rule of Law, and "saving democracy", burying Trump's political career is the actual point of the exercise.

Posted by: Ort | Sep 26 2019 18:40 utc | 39

b is quite right. It is amazing how widespread Trump Derangement Syndrome has become: Trump's request to the Ukrainian President might have offended ultra-nationalist sentimentalists, but it is both sensible and of interest.
Why did Biden's boy suddenly become worth hiring at $50000 per month? Does anyone NOT know the answer?
The truth is that the Ukrainian fascists, put into power by the Democratic Party-at a cost of billions to the US taxpayer- worked hard to make sure that their patron Hillary became President. How hard is of interest to all.
I don't like Trump either but to suggest that these are impeachable offences is not only wrong but stupid: the dirt sticking to Biden will spread around the whole party. It would be a very bad tactical error for Sanders to go along with this nonsense the way he did with Russiagate-its separated at birth twin. But he will. I expect that that is what Trump is hoping for.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 26 2019 18:42 utc | 40

I have to disagree with B on this. Trump said multiple times in an interview that he would accept information against an political opponent from an foreign government. Both Trump and Giuliani have stated on video that the inquiry into Biden was political, not judicial.
Ariochiincorrect.

Posted by: Sorghum | Sep 26 2019 18:46 utc | 41

In the clash between the Democrats and the Republicans, one needs to cheer for a spectacular game, i.e. both teams at once. The more these insatiable vampires devour each other, the cleaner the air and the better the climate on earth.

Posted by: orinoco | Sep 26 2019 18:51 utc | 42

I meant to add that the interview where Trump admits he'd accept information would be enough to prove intent for the average person.

Posted by: Sorghum | Sep 26 2019 18:57 utc | 43

b4real | Sep 26 2019 14:56 utc | 2:

I agree the coming election will be the nastiest ever.   BUT, Hillary returning?!   I doubt the Electoral College would be so retarded.


@JR re: coming war

While I don't outright dismiss the possibility of war against Iran (as China and Russia is out of the question), limited missile strikes is the best the US can do.   HOWEVER, there will be none.   The lack of a response from the attack on the Saudis oil infrastructure is the tell.   All this mess we're seeing is the infighting in the various factions of the US ruling elites on the public stage.   The craziness of the Democrats is to hide their criminal past and prevent people like Gabbard or Sanders from taking the nomination.   They'll go as far as throwing the election in Trump's favor.

Posted by: Ian2 | Sep 26 2019 19:04 utc | 44

DJT and Biden are two sides of the same coin. They both have the same paymasters.

They're allowed to screw the American workers, but not their fellow sycophants for the rich.

Posted by: ben | Sep 26 2019 19:06 utc | 45

@ Sorghum - getting information is not any problem. Asking for it is not either. It is paying for it, via outright cash transfer or quid-pro-quo deal that is illegal. So, getting information from a foreign power is not in and of itself a crime.

Posted by: Sam Malone | Sep 26 2019 19:08 utc | 46

You are all long too used to overlooking and excusing Putin when he jails and disqualifies his political opponents from running against him. This is Trump's attempt to move towards Russianising the US political system. If this gets excused there is no telling what comes next.

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 26 2019 18:21 utc | 39

Russia copies methods for dealing with opposition groups from the West, and when donkeytale perceives similarities he/she calls it "Russianizing". For example, requiring some number of signatures and having arcane standards for collecting them is a feature of New York state. Police in the West that handles demonstrations has gloves, but they do not seem the be made of velvet. Occasional suspicious deaths, in prisons and elsewhere, are a common feature of USA and Russia (both have oversized prison populations, although USA to a larger extend). "Conservative" attitudes to homosexuality and treating drug addiction in Russia resemble Republican-dominated states in USA.

Pretending that Russia is some source of evil inventions is the true intellectual dishonesty.

Similarly, "opposition research" is an art cultivated in USA for decades, and using the high office for that purpose seems something that Trump, a political novice, observed in Obama administration. if you have a reasonable suspicion that your political opponent violated the law, you can apply law enforcement methods to determine the truth.

In turn, Democrats internalized methods used by Republicans agains Bill Clinton as "normal". Something is rotten in that picture, but it is a wider phenomenon, not "Putinization" or "Trumpification".

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Sep 26 2019 19:11 utc | 47

@ Sam Malone, Judge Naploanito said on Fox that what Trump did was undeniably a crime.

Posted by: Sorghum | Sep 26 2019 19:20 utc | 48

JR @4 @34

Excellent points. As soon as all this started hitting the fan, I was reminded of the last impeachment of a POTUS; that time the US illegally (and amorally) destroyed Yugoslavia and ensured that religious fundamentalist terrorist proxies would have safe havens in Eastern Europe.
I think you're on the right track vis a vis looming war against Iran.

Posted by: robjira | Sep 26 2019 19:20 utc | 49

bevin @41--

As I reported on the previous thread, Sanders endorsed the impeachment proceedings in a tweet I linked to and cited. Gabbard is apparently the only D-Party candidate that said this decision is a mistake. This article about her stance is actually balanced. Citing her recent interview by FOXNews:

"'I have been consistent in saying that I believe that impeachment in this juncture would be terribly divisive for our country at a time when we are already extremely divided,' Gabbard explained. 'Hyper-partisanship is one of the things that's driving our country apart.'

"'I think it's important to defeat Donald Trump. That's why I'm running for president, but I think it's the American people who need to make their voices heard, making that decision,' she said.

"Regardless of how you feel about Gabbard, you have to give her credit on this front. America is extremely divided today and politicians in Washington play into that. The impeachment saga is a prime example of their role in this division." [My Emphasis]

When one digs deeper into the forces Gabbard's attacking, she's the most patriotic one of the entire bunch, including the Rs. I haven't looked at her election websites recently, but from what I see of her campaign appearances, her and Sanders seem to be sharing each other's policy proposals, although they both choose to place more emphasis on some than others. For Gabbard, its the wonton waste and corruption of the Empire that keeps good things from being done for all citizens at home, whereas Sanders basically inverts the two.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 19:23 utc | 50

A general principle of law (and common sense) holds that one can commit a wrong to prevent a greater wrong.

The greater wrong is Biden juicing Ukraine.

The lesser wrong is Trump making a suggestion, albeit with a mafioso-like subtext.

Posted by: A. Person | Sep 26 2019 19:28 utc | 51

Piotr - nice pedantry.

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 26 2019 19:28 utc | 52

The "whistleblower's" letter is so pathetic, it is quite funny. It is nothing but drivel, very Russiagate-like, nothing but dredging mud.

What is striking about the letter is the inordinate lengths the author goes to to justify that the letter is non-classified and should not be classified, including verbose and detailed notes with arguments as to why it should not be classified, taking up a full half of the document. This is underlined in particular by his statement in the letter:

If a classification marking is applied retrospectively, I believe it is incumbent upon the classifying authority to explain why such a marking was applied, and to which specific information it pertains.
which proves beyond doubt that this is a purely political document, intended for public consumption as a tool for political ends, not for the intelligence committees. Typical Clinton-Cabal manipulation.

Apparently a desperate action to obfuscate something in Barr's investigation, as I interpret it. Obviously considerable effort (and considerable discussion) has been expended in trying to make it as watertight as possible - but by people incapable of seeing outside their narrow interests.

The other thing that is striking is the extent to which the Whitehouse staff are stuffed full of Obomber holdovers conspiring in every breath of their working lives to find ways and means to undermine and attack the US President.

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 19:38 utc | 53

@ Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 26 2019 18:21 utc | 39

> You are all long too used to overlooking and excusing Putin when he jails
> and disqualifies his political opponents from running against him.

Like when? If this happens so frequently, surely you can cite an example that doesn't immediately fall apart when scrutinized?

Posted by: Stygg | Sep 26 2019 19:47 utc | 54

how do you have an investigation about an incident in ukraine without having an investigation in ukraine?

Posted by: jason | Sep 26 2019 19:57 utc | 55

Sorghum 49

My understanding is - only a crime if Trump is after information for political purposes - eg help him win an election.
Trump setting up an investigation into corruption is not a crime.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 26 2019 19:57 utc | 56

BM @54--

"... Obomber holdovers ..."

That's always been a source of puzzlement/astonishment for me given Trump's stated hatred for all things Obama and vow to drain the swamp--particularly the holdovers at Justice, where you had Comey's daughter as the lead prosecutor against Epstein, amongst other notable examples.

I see Judicial Watch has filed what appears to be a FOIA lawsuit against the Trump State Department seeking documents over firing of Biden-Ukraine prosecutor and explains the situation in a 2.5min video that I can't fault. THis begs the question: Why is Trump"s DoS stonewalling what ought to be seen as an ally in this affair? More Obama holdovers?

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 20:00 utc | 57

@ 39 donkey... this is the regular koolaid offered to usa citizens.. good job engaging a few more folks here in more of this stupidity... we see it differently and may as well leave it at that... thanks..

Posted by: james | Sep 26 2019 20:00 utc | 58

@48 piotr.. "Pretending that Russia is some source of evil inventions is the true intellectual dishonesty." exactly... i'm thinking the amount of ignorance that the western msm has happily shed on this has won over a number of otherwise intelligent people... it is friggin' shocking... many folks like koolaid it seems, including otherwise intelligent people...

Posted by: james | Sep 26 2019 20:04 utc | 59

@peter AU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55ONH7AnDOE&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV4GEbnC8_Y
Its seems pretty clear, but I feel like JR is right and this is another distraction.

@ A. Person: Wut? No, wrong is wrong and laws shouldn't be just for us peons or whatever bad guy of the day. I don't care who did what, if they broke the law throw the book at them like would be and is done to us.

Posted by: sorghum | Sep 26 2019 20:07 utc | 60

Peter AU 1 @57--

In the vid I linked @58, it's alleged that many details and proof of corruption regarding the Bidens and the Obama administration already exist in public domain and that official papers are sought to help substantiate and perhaps establish additional leads in the matter, which seems entirely plausible to me. Clearly, this is shaping up to be a He said--She said sort of battle waged in & by BigLie Media and associated alt media.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 20:09 utc | 61

It would be a very bad tactical error for Sanders to go along with this nonsense the way he did with Russiagate-its separated at birth twin.
Posted by: bevin | Sep 26 2019 18:42 utc | 41

Sanders is seriously damaged goods, as far as I can see. "Ne'er the twain shall meet" as far as actions and words are concerned.

For Gabbard, its the wonton waste and corruption of the Empire that keeps good things from being done for all citizens at home, whereas Sanders basically inverts the two.
Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 19:23 utc | 51

The wanton corruption - which necessarily also causes wanton waste - is the cause of 95% of the damage to the interests of all citizens except the elite, and concentrating on the cause is the only plausible way of hoping to ameliorate the result, therefore Gabbard is certainly right to concentrate on it.

It is not really clear what you mean by "inverts the two", but if you mean "electoral promises" (promising lots of goodies), then, well, we all know about electoral promises within the Empire. In my opinion if Sanders were ever to become president he's be little more than an Obomber Mark II, blatently contradicting all his promises that his supporters fervently depend on. The history of Sanders' actions speak more to his sincerety than his words.

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 20:11 utc | 62

donkeytale:

You are all long too used to overlooking and excusing Putin when he jails and disqualifies his political opponents from running against him. This is Trump's attempt to move towards Russianising the US political system. If this gets excused there is no telling what comes next.

Why bring Putin into this? Why call it Russianising? Isn't Chuba's point —about how we deserve this— that we've been already doing this to others so now it happens to us? Why not call it Americanizing, since abusing power when surveilling and infiltrating political campaigns already happened with Trump's campaign, too?

Posted by: ChRo | Sep 26 2019 20:14 utc | 63

Posted by: A. Person | Sep 26 2019 19:28 utc | 52

Erm, is A. Person the same Person as A. User, or is it A. different User?

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 20:16 utc | 64

Am I mistaken or are all the whistle-blower's allegations set out in the recently-disclosed ICIG letter based on second or third-hand hearsay and not on any direct personal knowledge?

Posted by: chet380 | Sep 26 2019 20:18 utc | 65

karlof1
Another interesting aspect is this. Whistle blower gives evidence to Trump appointed intel honcho, who forwards evidence to higher Trump appointed intel honcho, who then takes evidence to Trump appointed presidential legal advisor for clearance.
Higher Trump intel honcho then waits until phone call transcript is made public before sending whistle blower evidence to senate intel circus.

So either massive conspiracy by those around Trump to take him down with vey week ammo, or option b - those involved in russiagate being set up for massive fall.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 26 2019 20:20 utc | 66

Meanwhile Trump digs the hole a little deeper. Now he is calling the person who gave information to the whistleblower a spy. No doubt he'd like to see him/her up against a wall vaping a last cigarette.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-seeks-whistleblower-sources-mentions-181748238.html

Posted by: dh | Sep 26 2019 20:22 utc | 67

Why is Trump"s DoS stonewalling what ought to be seen as an ally in this affair? More Obama holdovers?
Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 20:00 utc | 58

It seems like the mole-like permanent puppet-string-puller* network installed - or more likely expanded and deepened, and made more permanently pro-Dem - by Obomber throughout the US government is much like an infestation of mould, whose spores are impervious to destruction and constantly reinfest the infestation.

* (but not puppetmaster, because members of the network are themselves puppets to the Deep State).

Posted by: BM | Sep 26 2019 20:31 utc | 68

chet380 @66--

In the vid I linked @58, the Judicial Watch person suspects it's the work of D-Congressman Schiff as it bears the hallmarks of his craftmanship, but check the vid for confirmation.

BM @63--

You interpreted it correctly. The best site I've visited for information on Gabbard is this Wikipedia page that lists most everything together all on one page and links to other Wiki pages about her.

Draining the Swamp and depriving its denizens of their food is an election ploy that ought to get universal support; it sure garnered Trump votes in 2016 but he did nothing afterwards and allowed corrupt officials to remain in their posts. IMO, the Duopoly's parties are both corrupt from head to toe as is the Current Oligarchy that pulls their strings. All three entities need to be slain for US citizens to regain their freedom and ability to control their federal, state, and local governments. That such a conception is termed radical indicates just how far from the center those proclaiming it radical have become--they prove themselves to be the true radicals: 100% Reactionaries defending the vile and corrupt.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 20:52 utc | 69

Sorghum

If one breaks a car window, one commits a wrong. Should one commit this wrong to rescue a child in peril on a hot day?

I mentioned that committing a wrong to prevent a greater wrong is a general law. The application of the general law depends upon the circumstances.

Trump pushed the weak, petite Ukrainian to investigate Biden’s corruption. Why not agree that this is a lesser wrong?

How would a jury decide? How will the electorate decide?

(Also: A. Person is as unique and unique can be. A. User is someone else, also as unique as unique can be.)

Posted by: A. Person | Sep 26 2019 20:54 utc | 70

Both Biden and The Donald are corrupt to the bones and use nepotism to beneffit their children/in-laws....

The Donald is yet to show his tax return, for the US citizenry to test that he is not only stolling money from so many countries so as to cover his "lack of contribution" to US Treasury. His shenanigans with the Saudis, against Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Afgahnistan and Yemen should be investigated and punished.
The shenanigans of Biden in the Ukraine should be investigated and punished, especially since it includes money misdirected ( i.e.stolen ) from the Ukrainian and US taxpayers.

The only logical effect of all this would be that none of the two could be able to take part to the next election. If the US Constitution does not provide a leagl figure to do that...it is badly done by interested parties, and so, must be rewritten asap...First and Secod Ammendements appear quite scarce, and futil, amongst the times and events we move in...

On the Ukraine issue both contributed to install and then mantain a Nazi puppet government which committed a lot of crimes against humanity and stole all the Ukrainian treasure.

If Europe would not be such a deideologized/corrupted/oligarchy ruled place right now, an international trial ( a la Nurenberg, but this time serious...) should be organized so as to ask for responsability on breaking peace in Europe. This should have been suggested in the current UNGA.... but not even Lavrov included it amongst its suggestions....

One day a trial will be organized no doubt to judge those behind international terrorism and all the wars since the end of WWII...
Until then, international leadership meetings at the UNHQ in NY or promote fearmongering campaigns to "save the planet" would appear as futil to the average taxpayer....

Posted by: Sasha | Sep 26 2019 21:10 utc | 71

@71 a. person.. good analogy.. thanks.. this is where the world is at, at present - having to use these types of analogies to convey how far along everything is here... no black and white anymore - never was anyway..

Posted by: james | Sep 26 2019 21:12 utc | 72

For the first time in quite awhile, I must applaud those commenting on a Common Dreams article, "'As Bad, If Not Worse, Than Watergate': Whistleblower Complaint Alleges Massive White House Cover-Up," a site I once commented profusely at until I was banned for being anti D-Party-line in June of 2016. Applause for expressing the same sentiments that got me exiled--a plague on both their houses in essence. Even some of the more principled D-Party people have uttered inanities:

"Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) said on Twitter that Congress must act as soon as possible to stop the president from continuing to use 'the Oval Office as his campaign office.'"

Excepting Washington and those who died early in their first term, every POTUS has used "the Oval Office as his campaign office." Although, it's easy to understand why Omar's biased in this case. But still, it's yet another case of making an utterance prior to thinking about that utterance, an all too common disease.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 21:15 utc | 73

@ Sorghum 49
Judge Naploanito said on Fox that what Trump did was undeniably a crime.

Actually, it is deniable.
from Roll Call
The Justice Department has decided that President Donald Trump did not cross a legal line in his phone call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy. The department said its review of the call — in which Trump asked Ukraine to “do us a favor” and talk to his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani and Attorney General William Barr about opening a potential corruption investigation connected to Trump’s main political rival — did not find a “thing of value” that could be quantified as campaign finance law requires. Opposition research can be a “thing of value” and therefore a potential crime, election law experts said, but the term is not well defined and has not been fully tested in court. Some experts backed the Justice Department view on legal grounds; some didn’t. . .here

Public Law 107-155 amended amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to provide bipartisan
campaign reform. The law places requirements on the collection and disbursement of funds, as in SEC. 303. STRENGTHENING FOREIGN MONEY BAN which inserts the following language:
(a) Prohibition.--It shall be unlawful for--
``(1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make--
``(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;
``(B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or
``(C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 304(f)(3)); or
``(2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.'' . .here

Nowhere in the law is there any control put upon information. The law is about money, with only a brief mention of "other thing of value" under the general category of money.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 26 2019 21:19 utc | 74

The fact Trump “burned “ the official transcript tells you all you need to know.

Not that Biden is clean. Dems are handing the reelection to Trump on a silver platter as the illuminist leaders controlling both parties have commanded. A failed impeachment attempt is exactly what Trump wants since Biden will go down in flames. His Ukraine baggage should have ruled him out from the start. They might as well have just run Hillary again but then it would have been even more transparent that they have no intention of trying to win.

Like I say, its all fake wrestling, the outcome is decided in advance. What follows is scripted entertainment to keep people from discussing the real issues (not that the majority even know what those issues are living as they do in the false reality that has been created for them)

Posted by: Pft | Sep 26 2019 21:20 utc | 75

how do you have an investigation about an incident in ukraine without having an investigation in ukraine?

Posted by: jason | Sep 26 2019 19:57 utc

easy-peezy! google MH17

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2019 21:36 utc | 76

...a nothingburger--featuring secret phone calls and other scary stuff
from The Hill:
The five most serious charges in the whistleblower's complaint
By Niall Stanage
>The White House sought to hide details of Trump’s phone call
>Trump allies used leverage to get Ukraine to ‘play ball’ - [the false "quid pro quo" contention]
>The White House has hidden the details of other phone calls
>Officials were ‘deeply concerned’ by Giuliani’s activities
>Ukrainian officials knew U.S. aid could be in jeopardy - [right, and it could rain tomorrow]

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 26 2019 21:40 utc | 77

@ Pft 76
The fact Trump “burned “ the official transcript
Evidence?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 26 2019 21:43 utc | 78

Ollie Richardson has written "a reminder of what Joe Biden did"

https://www.stalkerzone.org/joe-biden-and-ukraine-a-quick-reminder/

Spotted by Elena Evdokimova @elenaevdokimov7

'Did the "leak" about Trump & Zelensky conversation originate in Ukraine?
Has Ukrainian foreign office staff or SBU leaked it to the alleged "whistle blower"?
'It seems that former Ukrainian Foreign Minister Klimkin boasts about it.'

https://twitter.com/PavloKlimkin/status/1176736459455422465
Google translate: "To keep things going, Ukraine will remain in the history of the United States as the country that led to the impeachment of the US President. Not a very fun prospect. But now everyone understands what we are capable of"

Posted by: A Non | Sep 26 2019 22:15 utc | 79

In the middle of all this...what this could probably mean?...
Whon eeds to restart the war in the Ukraine?

Hundreds of Shells Fall on Donetsk, Residents Prepare For Wartime Levels of Danger!

Posted by: Sasha | Sep 26 2019 22:21 utc | 80

Google Translate is a bit off.

Rather "Whatever goes/happens further/after this, Ukraine will... that led to the beginning of impeachment procedure...."

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2019 22:21 utc | 81

Under whose administration have been denied VISAs to the Russian, and other countries´, delegation to the UNGA?

Posted by: Sasha | Sep 26 2019 22:23 utc | 82

What appears to have so alarmed career government ethics and oversight officials, however, is the extent to which the now released complaint reveals that Trump’s ethical rot, as they perceive it, has spread beyond the Oval Office, beyond the White House, beyond the cabinet and through the government.

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Sep 26 2019 22:23 utc | 83

PillBilly @ 6:

In English, "the Ukraine" has been traditionally used because, as many MoA barflies have already pointed out, the name is derived from a Slavic term meaning "borderland" or "frontier". The Russian word "kray" (sometimes spelt "kraj") meaning "territory" comes from the same root term and is used to refer to regions in Russia far from the Moscow / European heartland eg Primorsky Kray which are on the edge or frontier of the country.

In central and eastern Europe and in the Balkans region there are many border areas between Slav countries and between Slav and non-Slav countries, all of which may be known locally or administratively as "kraj", "krajina" or "krajna" (the "j" pronounced as if it were a "y") and these names all come from the same root.

Historically there were many borderland regions in central and eastern Europe where Slavic-speaking peoples lived because these areas were divided among empires of Western Christian (Roman Catholic / Protestant), Eastern Christian (Orthodox) and Islamic faiths. Some of these areas had also been invaded by Mongols and made part of their empire in the 1200s.

The area that became the Ukraine is flat with no obvious physical features to make it separate from other regions so throughout the centuries it has been crossed by invaders from Europe and Asia alike. From the 1200s on, it was harassed by slave raiders from the Crimean khanate to capture white slaves for the Ottoman empire: this was part of Crimea's tribute to Istanbul in return for protection. Many women who entered Ottoman sultans' harems were captives from this area. Communities living in the area moved to the safety of neighbouring states like the Commonwealth of Poland-Lithuania or Russia and it became a frontier region on the borders of empires with different faiths.

Posted by: Jen | Sep 26 2019 22:26 utc | 84

Schiff does parody for impeachment.

Rep. Adam Schiff's full opening statement on whistleblower complaint including Schiff's comedic version of Trump's phone call to Zelensky:
“We’ve been very good to your country. Very good. No other country has done as much as we have. But you know what? I don’t see much reciprocity here. I hear what you want. I have a favor I want from you, though. And I’m gonna say this only seven times, so you better listen good. . .I want you to make up dirt on my political opponent, understand, lots of it. On this and on that. I’m going to put you in touch with people...and by the way don’t call me again. I’ll call you when you’ve done what I asked.” . . .here

Schiff later admitted that he included words in his opening statement that the president did not say, noting that his characterization was meant to be taken “at least, in part, in parody.” . .get the hook

Posted by: Don Bacon | Sep 26 2019 22:30 utc | 85

""the Ukraine" was coined in the TV sitcom Seinfeld."

Uh, no.
It was always "the Ukraine." A region, not a country.
Like "the Levant."
It became "Ukraine" only after the collapse of the USSR.
But some Russians and others still call it "the Ukraine."
Out of force of habit or for ideological reasons.

Posted by: Really?? | Sep 26 2019 22:43 utc | 86

Hint:
Rurik dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik_dynasty
The Russian State originated in the Ukraine, when Moscow was a hunting lodge.
Just so you know-----

Posted by: Duncan Idaho | Sep 26 2019 23:02 utc | 87

Russians cannot call Ukraine "the Ukraine" because there's no "the" article in Russian. It's Ukraieena, phonetically. I asked my Russian instructor about article usage, and she said they're subsumed within the noun, which is why Russian speakers have a difficult time with English because we use articles so damn often. IMO, Russian is easier to learn than English.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 23:09 utc | 88

Duncan Idaho @88--

There was no such entity as Ukraine when the initial formation of what would eventually become the Russian state was occurring. The name Kievian Rus was applied later by historians, the Rus likely being Nordic peoples.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 23:13 utc | 89

You are so right donkeytale #31, it is abuse of power. Like Clinton's abuse of power to place the entire USA national Security at risk and hide her Secretary of State communications on unsecured servers. Like Uranium One, like Haiti, Like the $30 million she stole for her foundation from Australia and never accounted for. You are right, abuse of power is disgusting and murderous - ask Libyans.

There are many people on this earth who are totally sick of the USA abusing its power in every corner of the globe.

There is a sweet irony here that this mess is unraveling in Ukraine and now Crowdstrike and its corruption all the way into the Atlantic Council is exposed. Ukraine !

I bet Vladimir Putin and Sergey Lavrov are laughing to the point of hysterical that the Ukraine gila monster has just bitten Biden and Trump on the dick and now Pelosi is yelling and screaming. This is the aftermath - https://tinyurl.com/yxdvjluj

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 26 2019 23:15 utc | 90

"The whistleblower, presumably someone of medium to higher rank in the CIA"

FWIW, Fred Fleitz, a former CIA analyst offers some insights:

https://twitter.com/FredFleitz/status/1177206661603348480?s=20

"This is not an intelligence matter. It is a policy matter and a complaint about differences over policy. Presidential phone calls are not an intelligence concern."

"It appears that rules restricting access and knowledge of these sensitive calls was breached. This official was not on this call, not on the approved dissem list and should not have been briefed on the call."

"The way this complaint was written suggested the author had a lot of help. I know from my work on the House Intel Commitee staff that many whistleblowers go directly to the intel oversight committees. Did this whistleblower first meet with House Intel committee members?"

Posted by: Yonatan | Sep 26 2019 23:16 utc | 91

James there is more than flavour of kool aid and you are projecting when you accuse others without noticing the cherry red stains on your own tee shirt

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 26 2019 23:20 utc | 92

A Non 80

A short version of thetelephonecallwas posted on the Prsident of Ukrain websit on the day of the call
https://www.president.gov.ua/en/news/volodimir-zelenskij-proviv-telefonnu-rozmovu-z-prezidentom-s-56617
President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy had a phone conversation with President of the United States Donald Trump. President of the United States congratulated Ukraine on successful holding free and democratic parliamentary elections as well as Volodymyr Zelenskyy with victory the Servant of the People Party.

Donald Trump is convinced that the new Ukrainian government will be able to quickly improve image of Ukraine, complete investigation of corruption cases, which inhibited the interaction between Ukraine and the USA.

He also confirmed continued support of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine by the United States and the readiness of the American side to fully contribute to the implementation of a Large-Scale Reform Program in our country.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy thanked Donald Trump for US leadership in preserving and strengthening the sanctions pressure on Russia.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 26 2019 23:23 utc | 93

More than 'one' flavour of kool aid

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 26 2019 23:23 utc | 94

IMO, Russian is easier to learn than English.

@Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2019 23:09 utc | 89

Really?
Snowden does not see to think the same...

Then...I am going to learn Russian...may be this autum/winter...I was going to do it time ago...but then desisted...noticing this Putin is way too liberal for my body....But, in the end, Russia is one of the last countries where you can be a respected communist and even have any opportunity to grab power... or at least gain enough support to put pressure in those at power...

Once I learn Russian I will be seriously considering moving myself there...may be to the Crimea...because of the warm weather and the sea...or may be to Sochi, well, I will see... I do not like how things are developing here...all the more after just reading the history of ETA and its origins and the betrayal of the PSOE which dates back to the Spanish Civil War....It seems that here everybody sold themselves to the CIA...


Posted by: Sasha | Sep 26 2019 23:24 utc | 95

Uncle T I dont disagree with your 'whataboutism' whatsoever.

Posted by: donkeytale | Sep 26 2019 23:25 utc | 96

I should have checked that sentence before posting. A few keys on my keyboard need thumping a bit to make them work.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 26 2019 23:26 utc | 97

Sasha @ 96. The crisis in Ukraine seems like a the Spanish civil war in the lead up to the Great Patriotic War. I'm learning Russian, too. Crimea looks nice. I am interested in Vladivostok, too.

Posted by: roza shanina | Sep 26 2019 23:40 utc | 98

@ Posted by: PillBillly | Sep 26 2019 16:10 utc | 6

"Ukraine" literally means "borderlands", which in English requires "the".

In sum, Anglophones call it "the Ukraine" for the same reason they call the dutch kingdom "the Netherlands" (the Low Lands).

Posted by: vk | Sep 26 2019 23:44 utc | 99

The Pope, The Vatican, The Italy is the address I use whilst sending my used condoms.

Should I change to Pope, Vatican, Italy?

Posted by: A. Person | Sep 26 2019 23:50 utc | 100

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