A Brexit Thread – Moon of Alabama

September 4, 2019

A Brexit Thread

I give way to the Leader of The House of Commons the right honorable Jacob William Rees-Mogg.

The Parliament of the UK just voted 329-300 for the preliminary approval of a bill aimed at preventing a no-deal Brexit. The bill requires the government to seek an extension to Article 50 if it does not have a deal for the UK’s exit from the EU. There is now a discussion about various amendments to the bill which will then need a second and third vote to become law.

Even if the bill becomes law it is is not assured that the Boris Johnson government would follow it.

Posted by b on September 4, 2019 at 16:37 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Boris’ only chance to pass any form of Brexit now is snap GE.
The Remainer MPs — led by blairite Keir Starmer — have already stated they don’t want GE anymore.
The question is simple: if there’s GE before October 31st, the Remainer tories will probably be wipped out to be replaced with Brexiter tories. Boris would then have a majority to allow the 31st October deadline to be enforced.
The Remainer strategy is to make any GE to happen in a scenario where Remain is already a fait accompli. They know that, under the FPTP system, Brexit is the democratic majority. In a one person, one vote system, there almost an absolute 50-50% division. Remainers know the democracy card is not entirely on their side. They know they must solve this the Prussian way, i.e. from above, in order to maneuver the masses.

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2019 16:56 utc | 1

Wow! 5,700 retweets & 14,500 likes and both climbing fast! That certainly qualifies as Viral!
What I see being questioned is the affect this legislation will have on the upcoming election. This George Galloway tweet and ensuing thread are one example:
“So: Parliament has stopped #Brexit and will shortly deny us a General Election. Dangerous times…”
Time stamp of 40 minutes ago.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2019 17:02 utc | 2

And another:
“It is now the Rump Parliament versus the People. When they have the guts to face us #BrexitVote #GeneralElectionNow.”
Tensions are rising!

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2019 17:10 utc | 3

Thank you b for that very telling picture of my local member of parliament ! Leader of the House of Commons Jacob Rees-Mogg.
Arrogant and elitist a throw back too a world that existed over a hundred years ago ! Tory of course.
An ardent Brixiteer, has moved his 200,000,000 wealth out of the U.K. (now there’s commitment)
So as of 6pm wens 5 September
Brixit and Britain has descended into a bloody shambles basicly. I lack the ability to make sense of today’s events,
Jeremy Corbyn is a man of integrity. I recommend that enyone who wishes to retain their sanity should follow and have full trust in him!
My hobby here on the Mendip hills of Somerset is as a ‘anti fox hunting saboteur trying to stop the illegal fox hunt Mogg and his wife run, yes even there hobby is blood lust.

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 4 2019 17:11 utc | 4

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 4 2019 17:11 utc | 5

A bit of pro-remain propaganda today?

Posted by: Calibrator | Sep 4 2019 17:13 utc | 6

Brexit : Another maneuver of the upper class in a world of failing capitalism. They fail to see that the working class, without jobs can’t sustain the upper class, wich is the reason for the failing capitalism

Posted by: opereta | Sep 4 2019 17:17 utc | 7

More than nap time happening in today’s Parliament session as this and other videos show. Brexit isn’t the only volatile issue being addressed.
Corbyn’s position as tweeted yesterday. I’ve seen nothing new to substantiate GG’s tweets:
“We’ll support a vote to call a General Election, so the people can decide our country’s future, once the Bill to stop No Deal is law.”

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2019 17:22 utc | 8

The labour position is incoherent. If they pass the bill and there is an election on the 15th oct,
then either labour win, in which case the bill was not needed. If the Tories win they will repeal
the act and again it is no use.
I suspect that the intention is to try and form a coalition government.

Posted by: William cockshott | Sep 4 2019 17:44 utc | 9

Wow. Picture says it all.

Posted by: Josh | Sep 4 2019 17:45 utc | 10

karlof1@9; Thanks for the Corbyn link. If I was British, I’d trust him…

Posted by: ben | Sep 4 2019 18:03 utc | 11

@Karlof1
As an admirer of your thoughtful and insightful posts, I find it incomprehensible that you would support a No Deal Brexit and the near-catastrophe that would ensue.
FTR, I an a big fan of GG, as you appear to be, but he’s wrong on this one.

Posted by: chet380 | Sep 4 2019 18:06 utc | 12

The problem isn’t that anyone actually supports a no-deal Brexit. That would be quite a bad outcome. The problem is that Brexit is the only democratic way to go; if there’s too much opposition to a deal, then that’ll be no-deal, for the people actually voted on leaving the EU, not on having a good deal with the Union.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Sep 4 2019 18:11 utc | 13

Trivia of the day:
Thousands in UK born as result of ‘extreme inbreeding’, study suggests: ‘Our estimate of the prevalence might be too low,’ lead researcher says after analysing DNA database

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2019 18:16 utc | 14

vk @ 1

The question is simple: if there’s GE before October 31st, the Remainer tories will probably be wipped out to be replaced with Brexiter tories. Boris would then have a majority to allow the 31st October deadline to be enforced

That assumes two things:
1. That all constituency offices follow Conservative Central Office policy and deselect the remainers who have lost the whip.
2. That deselected Conservative Remainer MPs don’t stand as independents
There are no guarantees about either.

The Remainer strategy is to make any GE to happen in a scenario where Remain is already a fait accompli. They know that, under the FPTP system, Brexit is the democratic majority. In a one person, one vote system, there almost an absolute 50-50% division. Remainers know the democracy card is not entirely on their side. They know they must solve this the Prussian way, i.e. from above, in order to maneuver the masses.

Nah, you overlook the simple fact that turnout in the referendum was 72.2%, that leaves 12,994,518 people who didn’t vote or decided not to vote. There is no guarantee that they’ll decide not to vote this time around. The Brexiters lied repeatedly while the Remainers under the influence of David Cameron, pulled their punches so as not to cause the Conservative Party to split. Now that it’s down to the wire, who can tell what will happen.
With the current lying Conservative tossers suddenly announcing the “end of austerity”, the Brexiters are running scared and anyone who believes them is an idiot because ASAP they’ll claim that they got the numbers wrong and it’s back to austerity

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 4 2019 18:22 utc | 15

@ Mark2 | Sep 4 2019 17:11 utc | 4
Ill chosen picture of Jacob Rees-Mogg, obviously a photo fit-up, reflecting discredit on its reproduction.
The original of Jacob Rees-Mogg reclining on Parliament front bench would have been better served with the caption:
Tory lounge-lizard at work.
Go to your Merriam-Webster for your definition of lounge-lizard, definitions #2, #3.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Sep 4 2019 18:22 utc | 16

It’s obviously far too late to make any kind of good “deal”. Brussels knows this is the desperation of Remainers trying to block democracy and would never offer anything by now. No Deal Brexit is the only democratic option left.
As for Parliament, it continues to follow its pattern of decades now in subverting all democratic outcomes.
Mark2 #5: “Jeremy Corbyn is a man of integrity. I recommend that enyone who wishes to retain their sanity should follow and have full trust in him!”
Yes, as that tweet shows, Corbyn remains a stone wall of integrity in his steadfast commitment to waffling and refusing to take a stand.
“Sir Robin bravely ran away…”

Posted by: Russ | Sep 4 2019 18:23 utc | 17

I still don’t understand why the good people of England don’t just write up an new constitution and vote on its ratification. If ratification by the masses of the new constitution replaces the existing government with the new ratified constitution, Bexit is assured, because there is no agreement between the EU and the government the constitution proposes. Seems so simple.

Posted by: snake | Sep 4 2019 18:32 utc | 18

Again: what type of west do you want?
One where the people’s will is respected, even if that means walking lockstep with the rest of the lemmings off a cliff?
Or…
One where our wise leaders know what is best for us and deny us the choice to be lemmings?
As for me:
“Geronimo!”

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Sep 4 2019 18:33 utc | 19

@ Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 4 2019 18:22 utc | 16
And you forgot the fact that those 72.2% of turnout was an absolute record for any British election in post-war history.
Elections in the First World countries usually have very low turnout because, in those countries, the contradictions of the capitalist system are less severe than in the Third World countries. Shizo Abe, for example, won his last re-election with a little bit more than 12% of the Japanese voting population (with a 29% turnout). Elsewhere in the First World, a 50% turnout is considered spectacular, with 30%-40% rates (secularly falling) being the norm for the 21st Century.

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2019 18:34 utc | 20

Who would have thought? Politicians subverting a democratic vote? /s
Anyway, I recommend to fellow non-british barflies here to watch “Yes, Minister”. 30+ Years old, but still the most brilliant way to get to know the burocracy, deep state, big money and politicians mindset and games.
It is terrifingly up to date. And what was bad back then, is now even multiples worse today.
To those who believe their arguments against Brexit should invalidate a democratic vote: You are as much an undertaker for democracy as the corrupt politcians. Democracy means to respect a vote in any event, it is the people who voted who decided about what they have to live with.
We all choose and build our own hell or heaven.
And no popular desire or political agenda can be pushed down for ever; It only will get more radical if the powers at the top try to prevent it.
The parliament has just shown it does not respect its own democracy and voters. But that mindset is not exclusive to the UK, it is prevanlent here in Germany too. Especially in the former popular partys that once claimed (and did) to represent the broad range of the population.
Today they spit and hate on their voters, and see them as kids that need some politcians as parent to decide for them.
This is choosing some policy over democracy, and it will lead to making the growing alination of the voters from their system all the more faster and explosive.
Weimar is coming to a parliament near you too.

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPr. | Sep 4 2019 18:51 utc | 21

thanks b.. i don’t live in the uk, so i don’t have a clear horse in the race.. however my instincts tell me to trust corbyn way more then boris… and, of course the msm has shit of corbyn regularly, so that is another reason to trust corbyn as i see it…

Posted by: james | Sep 4 2019 19:04 utc | 22

The country’s mood has changed toward Remain, based on multiple polls. How would a GE reflect this mood I wonder. Is there any way to turn the clock back? Especially with the resistance seen in Ireland and Scotland, will UK risk break away of these countries and bid for independence?
Scotland seems to be a sure thing.

Posted by: Uncle Jon | Sep 4 2019 19:08 utc | 23

The UK like the US currently has the best government money can buy
Until and unless the structural problem of letting a private cult own the global tools of finance this farce will continue.
You can replace all the leaders you want but the structural problem of private finance will just buy new ones.
Hello!! Is anyone reading this truth?
Electing Corbyn is not the answer to the structural problem and as such is less than a bandaid for the cancer of private finance.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 4 2019 19:14 utc | 24

@ Mark2. #4. JRM is unlike Corbyn, in that he is a man who follows his words with actions. Corbyn is a pathetic coward only driven on by his own selfish ambition. JRM has done nothing illegal in transferring his wealth offshore. I’d also like to see you provide concrete proof that he has a personal fortune of 200 million sterling.
As to a 19th century throwback. His core beliefs rest on the ethos that built Western civilization, which modern, unethical, unintelligent, unquestioning ersatz intellectual thinking is rapidly destroying.
The vote presented to the populace of the U.K. on the 23/06/2016 asked a very simple question, to leave or to remain in the E.U. As a public servant JRM is following that vote, Corbyn isn’t. Some example of a strong politician with integrity.

Posted by: Beibdnn. | Sep 4 2019 19:21 utc | 25

The British people need to escape from the 4th Reich a.k.a. the EU. If they are unable to extricate themselves from the EU occupation, then they will suffer financially devastating consequences and on an individual basis. It will be personal and it will be life-wrecking.
The EU is an economic and societal train wreck in the making. It is getting very late in the day to escape much of the harm that it is going to cause during its coming ruinous depression. Brexit (the no-deal version) would have allowed the Brits to avoid the devastation of the EU. British people would not have been robbed further to pay for EU socialist irresponsibility. Billions of pounds of British tax revenues would become available for the benefit of……. the British (the people who were bilched of it in the first place).
Interesting to see how EU gauleiters manage to re-run votes again and again, run referendums again and again, manipulate drawn out political process again and again, until they force the “democractic” result they seek (see, for but one example, Ireland). Teach the people to obey from the top down, that’s the EU ticket.
There was a song I heard long ago when I first visited London. It went,
“There’ll always be an England, and England shall be free, if England means as much to you as England means to me….”
England and the rest of the British Isles will not be free if it remains under the EU. It won’t mean much to anybody in that case. The choice is, what means more to the people, run their own affairs in their own nation or submission to foreign rule?

Posted by: Siotu | Sep 4 2019 19:23 utc | 26

Rees-Mogg has become something of an internet star…
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49578400

Posted by: dh | Sep 4 2019 19:28 utc | 27

@ Siotu who wrote
”
The choice is, what means more to the people, run their own affairs in their own nation or submission to foreign rule?
”
You really don’t comprehend that you are not able to run your own affairs either way as long as a private cult owns the global tools of finance and has all nations in debt up to their eyeballs do you?
Gawd, the brainwashing runs deep.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 4 2019 19:29 utc | 28

psycho @ 24 said;”The UK like the US currently has the best government money can buy.”
Yep, and it’s the same problem in both countries,however, if they could elect a politician
that would use the power of the gov. to control private wealth, and begin the transition to public finance, things could change.
Don’t hold yur’ breath til that happens….
“Rules and regulations never changed a man’s heart, but, they can restrain the heartless”
MLK..

Posted by: ben | Sep 4 2019 19:31 utc | 29

@vk #20
As you said. The notion that turnout in a snap GE would be higher than 72.2% seems utterly ludicrous.
What is really funny is if a new law gets passed against “double jeapordy”: Like it or hate it, Brexit passed in a clear referendum.
Voting on it again is clearly a tactic to get a different set of results – the exact reason why prevention of double jeapordy exists in criminal law.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 4 2019 19:36 utc | 30

@ ben who wrote
”
Don’t hold yur’ breath til that happens….
”
What sort of an attitude is that? Sounds like TINA to me and I don’t buy it. China is leading the way and they are just humans like us Western meat sacks.
Demand global public finance and this stupid way of living stops and we work out a better way for all of humanity currently under the jackboot of the God of Mammon

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 4 2019 19:38 utc | 31

“You really don’t comprehend that you are not able to run your own affairs either way as long as a private cult owns the global tools of finance and has all nations in debt up to their eyeballs do you?”
I think he understands it perfectly fine. I would rather be in Iceland than Greece. The EU hasnothing to offer the people but debt and austerity. The people arebetter off without the EU. The sooner this is reaized the better.

Posted by: Goldhoarder | Sep 4 2019 19:39 utc | 32

@ Goldhoarder who wrote
”
The EU hasnothing to offer the people but debt and austerity.
”
A commenter bevin here suggested I read “Paper against Gold” by Cobbett which you might want to read yourself
Do you really think that the UK is less in debt and will suffer less austerity independent of the EU?
Is the English pound backed by the gold in your moniker?
How much does the UK owe to the City of London Corp?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 4 2019 19:46 utc | 33

psychohistorian
Here is the immediate choice for the British- remain in the EU or exit from the EU. Which do you support?

Posted by: Siotu | Sep 4 2019 20:00 utc | 34

I see my reply to chet380 @13 was eaten by The Cloud. Unfortunately, I didn’t copy it: however, it merely stated that I was merely reporting what GG’s tweeting.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2019 20:05 utc | 35

Phew this is a hornets nest and no mistake !
The point is – – – It’s a false choice !
As long as the rich rule the poor the public loose (1% v 99%)
Farage and Boris Johnson are puppets of the elite.
The working class and middle class need to stop the 1% controlling the media, the arms industry, the banks and the wars !
Farage is best mates with Trump and Murdoch.
We can leave EU but we need a deal, Teresa May deliberately wasted 3 years in which to make a deal.
Brixit under Johnson or Farage will be no benifit to the public, Brixit under Corbyn will benifit the public and be a disaster for the super rich. Good thing too I say.
Last Saturday I was asked to stand as an mp against Mogg I declined!

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 4 2019 20:06 utc | 36

@ Siotu who asked me
”
Here is the immediate choice for the British- remain in the EU or exit from the EU. Which do you support?
”
I am in the US so only have feelings about the structural issue the West has. That said, it was my early understanding of BREXIT that it was a ploy by the City of London Corp to, at minimum, kick the can of EU requiring visibility into their perfidy down the road.
I see Western private finance as a parasite that is trying to make a home for itself in China who is not going along with their game. If the UK stays in the EU and the EU succeeds in forcing accountability of the City of London Corp then I would consider that positive…..but again, the West has a structural social organization problem of global private finance that needs to be addressed

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 4 2019 20:08 utc | 37

Well done, Jacob Rees-Mogg, for almost causing the leader of the Greens, Caroline Lucas, to burst a blood vessel. JRM (as leader of the House) was there almost all day, while Lucas and other critics concerned about contempt for Parliament (what about contempt for the people?) were able to come and go as they pleased.
b talks of Boris not upholding the law. This bill may not become law. It still has to get through the House of Lords and even then the prime Minister is not obligated to send it to the Queen for her signature, without which it falls by the wayside. Not sending up “inconvenient legislation” was a favourite practice of Labour governments.

Posted by: Tsar Nicholas | Sep 4 2019 20:13 utc | 38

Outside the EU and with the Conservative Government having plotted against Trump becoming president (Yes, it was the UK/MI-6 and not Russia/GRU that interfered in the 2016 US presidential election, the country’ll be fucked over by Trump. Fuck that.
As for JRM, he is as conniving, duplicitous and power greedy as Boris Johnson, so fuck him.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 4 2019 20:15 utc | 39

Siotu @34–
The question as asked: Leave or Remain in EU?
If I had a vote, I’d have voted Leave, but I’d also want to know under what conditions Leave would be manifested; meaning, the referendum question as posed was woefully incomplete, which I would have debated prior to the election. That issue is a lot of what constitutes the current debate. Complicating the issue further is the geographic divide between those voting to Leave and Remain. May had several years to solve those dilemmas but did nothing and then quit. Notice the pillorying Lam got for the mere suggestion of quitting while May did quit and suffered little consequence. Double Standards at play yet again! Then we have the well orchestrated hatred directed at Corbyn for wanting to protect both sides of the vote from any ill effects Leaving will entail.
As I see it, Johnson is for Leaving with zero conditions–No Deal Brexit–whereas Corbyn is for Leaving with conditions–A Cushioned Brexit. The former doesn’t give a damn about who gets harmed while the latter has a great deal of care regarding harm to anyone. And I don’t see that very realistic appraisal being made.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2019 20:25 utc | 40

@ Ghost Ship @vk
For your information turn out in UK elections since the 2WW up until 1997 is consistently over 70%. Since 2010 is has been over 65%. Try checking your facts! See http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm

Posted by: Chelsea | Sep 4 2019 20:32 utc | 41

It amazes some people still believe they themselves, or their ‘representitives’ Boris the Tomcat and Jeremy the Mouse, have influence on these matters. Just look at any photo of Mark Carney, juxtaposed against these two cartoon characters, and you will know who is in charge.
By the way, Mark Carney is threatening to create a 1930’s style depression if he and his backers don’t get their way.
Is the Fed Preparing to Topple US Dollar?

The Bank of England Governor proposes in effect that the IMF, with its multi-currency Special Drawing Rights (SDR), a basket of five currencies—dollar, Pound, Yen, Euro and now Renminbi—should play the central role creating a new monetary system.

http://www.williamengdahl.com/englishNEO1Sept2019.php
Might I suggest that we wait until after the pound is demonstrated to be worthless before assigning it a value in an SDR basket – that way, the pilferers will get the value of their assets minus the book value of derivatives they have used to buy up half the planet – so that they, and not we, pay for the unprecedented crime spree they have undertaken.
It’s all very simple if you want to preserve stability and engender a rapid recovery. Bailouts must happened from bottom to top, covering the first several hundred thousand dollars of each persons assets while liquidating everything above a certain threshold and driving Oligarchs and Financiers into the ground.

Posted by: C I eh? | Sep 4 2019 20:34 utc | 42

@karlof1 #39
The issue was debated in the referendum campaign, which went on for many months.
In fact, the remain camp (including the then Prime Minister, david Cameron) went out of their way to warn that if we voted to leave, we would be out on our ear, that there would be no special treatment from the European Union. That fact, and not the prospect of a “deal”, was uppermost in voters’ minds went to the polls on June 23rd 2016, and the political elite and the corporations are trying to re-write history.

Posted by: Tsar Nicholas | Sep 4 2019 20:36 utc | 43

All those who think a little and support Brexit maybe have not delved into the complexities and dangers involved for the UK. When there is talk of not respecting the popular vote how on earth were the British public supposed to decide on something as fiendishly difficult as this? How many people know the first thing about how long it talks to reach a trade deal? How many know that adopting WTO rules automatically increases the price of exported goods? How many understand the current state of just in time manufacturing with millions of parts entering from the EU and leaving the UK for the EU every single day? How many understand that pharma companies like Astra Zeneca have employees coming and going to/from Europe every month? What happens if Airbus decides to shift manufacturing of wings out of the UK – one of the very few very highly skilled sectors we have left? Of course, little Britain, ever sneering at Europe, sold its 20% share of Airbus for a paltry £1 billion just before Airbus overtook Boeing in 2003 as the world’s largest supplier of commercial aircraft. Talk about dumb.
Brexit is not a rebellion against a neoliberal EU – it is supported by a mixture of nauseous, racist little Englanders who want to return to some imaginary time of Commonwealth and Empire mixed with a not inconsiderable number who were very aversly affected by the influx of very large numbers of mainly Polish people who arrived from the early 2000s onwards. Those affected were mainly tradesmen – roofers, tilers, painter and decorators, plumbers, electricians – who suddenly found the rate for the job had dropped by half. Some less skilled British people – warehouse workers, cleaners, drivers and a long etc – could not find a job in those years. So there was real anger here.
When Brits call the EU neoliberal it is the height of hypocrisy. Here’s just a short list of what the Brits have done to maintain the neoliberal status quo in Europe: Britain opposed an EU blacklist on tax havens, opposed proposed EU legislation to tax financial transactions; it took legal action against the EU Commission when it tried to ban short selling (speculating on the fall of prices in markets). Britain also vehemently opposed proposed legislation to ban food speculation and fought against MEP plans that would cap bankers’ bonuses. In fact, Cameron announced the referendum just after the EU announced plans to tax financial transactions. So who are the neoliberals here?

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 4 2019 20:38 utc | 44

Regardless of what I would prefer, I would insist on the result of the referendum being endorsed by political figures. Those political figures who are spoiling any exit strategy from coming into force are left with a no deal scenario and nothing else. Through their own manipulations and strategies they cannot manage to reverse the democratic will as clearly voted by on by the UK population, insist on declining a no deal exit, and seek to reverse the result through death by a thousand cuts. Their entire holy show spits in the face of democracy and renders them unfit to serve as elected to do. As for Scotland and the UK, Scotland had their referendum. It’s entirely the fault of sections of the political elites that the current undignified mess is engaged and the EU is no solution to anything for the UK. Perhaps the UK are unable to govern themselves and need to be brought by the hand to yet another holy grail by their more able and better equipped european neighbours? It’s a poor state of affairs all round I suspect?

Posted by: Lbanu | Sep 4 2019 20:59 utc | 45

@ Posted by: Chelsea | Sep 4 2019 20:32 utc | 40
My mistake: the Referendum was a record turnout of the “End of History era” (1992 doesn’t count because it happened only a few months after the fall of the USSR, so it practically pertains to the “rise of neoliberalism” era), not the post-war era.
Either way, the Remainer argument that “only 17 million voted for Brexit…” is patently false: the elections that put Clement Attlee and Tony Blair into power had essentially the same turnout.
P.S.: look at the British turnout history for the European elections…

Posted by: vk | Sep 4 2019 21:05 utc | 46

Irresistible force meets immovable object. The reality is that they are trying to put an old bird back in its egg.
This is the reset button getting pushed. What should concern those who sense this and are willing to consider the options, will be what are the alternatives, given the only thing currently keeping the charade going is the assumption that there are no alternatives.
My argument has been that finance is going through its Marie Antionette moment. As the value circulation mechanism, finance is analogous to the body’s circulation system, just as government serves as the central nervous system of society. Yet when those running these processes lose sight of the fact they serve a function to the larger community, rather than just predators to it, they need replacing by a more effective mechanism.
Not that finance should be a direct function of government, just as the head and heart are separate and serve separate functions, to the whole body.
There are deeper conceptual issues playing into this, but that is the immediate issue our generation has to address.
Obviously the current spectacle distracts from the real issues, but that only further enables those with their hands on the real levers of power, the debt all these governments have issued. When that is called due, then we will understand true oligarchy.
Michael Hudson has a book out on how this played out in antiquity. There are an interesting series of interviews at naked capitalism;
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/04/the-delphic-oracle-was-their-davos-a-four-part-interview-with-michael-hudson-about-his-forthcoming-book-the-collapse-of-antiquity-part-1.html

Posted by: John Merryman | Sep 4 2019 21:07 utc | 47

This is not a great negotiating strategy: ‘I will not walk out under any circumstances’.
Latest development: MP’s vote to block a no-deal Brexit AND block a snap election … how is that for democracy? We will not follow your vote on the referendum, and we will not allow you to remove us from office!

Posted by: SteveK9 | Sep 4 2019 21:08 utc | 48

SteveK9 @46

Latest development: MP’s vote to block a no-deal Brexit AND block a snap election … how is that for democracy?

An accidental vote of confidence in the government? Since the MP’s refuse to vote for no confidence and blocks a snap election offered by the government, the implication seems to be that the minority government is free to pursue its own policies? They could just passively wait for Brexit to become a reality Oct 31st?

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 4 2019 21:20 utc | 49

***Breaking***
Pentagon will be pulling funding for daycare to pay for Trump’s wall.
An actual Reuters story.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-pentagon/pentagon-pulls-funds-for-military-schools-daycare-to-pay-for-trumps-border-wall-idUSKCN1VP2VY?il=0
News or politicing? I wonder if DARPA determined that this was not fake news and thus acceptable for sheep consumption.

Posted by: librul | Sep 4 2019 21:21 utc | 50

The UK is not a direct democracy, it’s a representative parliamentary democracy which means that we elect representatives to Parliament and it’s their job to make decisions. Referendums only provide advice to the members of Parliament.

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change.

Back in 1689, the Earl of Shaftesbury declared, “The Parliament of England is that supreme and absolute power, which gives life and motion to the English government”.
Finally, as a non-USian, I wish that all Americans would fuck off telling other countries how they should run themselves until they’ve sorted out that shithole of venality, corruption and viciousness aka the US Congress.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 4 2019 21:38 utc | 51

Three times MP’s voted down May’s deal with the EU. Which the EU says is all you are going to get. May’s negotiations were pathetic, for the most part because they didn’t believe she would walk out (they were right). So, now the MP’s vote to block walking out, by law. But, why would the EU offer anything more in that case than the ‘deal’ that the MP’s voted against? Maybe the EU would offer an even worse deal … why not? The lack of any logic or integrity here on the part of the British government is stunning. Now, instead of offering the people a chance to vote on new representation, that might actually follow the will of those people, they block the election.
A couple of years ago Jeremy Corbyn was heading to 10 Downing Street. At this point, when an election is held there will be an alliance between Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party (which won the recent EP election) and the Conservatives, and they will probably destroy Labor.

Posted by: SteveK9 | Sep 4 2019 21:58 utc | 52

This is all very reminiscent of Syriza in Greece. The EU bullies won in that case, but I thought Britain was a far more powerful and capable country … maybe not.

Posted by: SteveK9 | Sep 4 2019 21:59 utc | 53

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 4 2019 21:38 utc | 49
Wish I knew how …

Posted by: SteveK9 | Sep 4 2019 22:01 utc | 54

I believe this could backfire spectacularly on the remain camp. As others have pointed out already, the remainers repeatedly expressed their desire for a second referendum. When offered the chance of a general election which would undoubtedly be decided by a single issue, and therefore, could be viewed as a second, far more binding, referendum, they demurred. Clearly they prefer referendums that nobody can ruin by voting the wrong way. It is time for them to stop referring to subversion of ‘democracy’ having run a mile when offered democracy.

Posted by: tspoon | Sep 4 2019 22:08 utc | 55

Tsar Nicholas | Sep 4 2019 20:36 utc | 41–
Thanks for your reply! If the electorate knew the outcome would be no deal–“thrown out on their ear”–and still voted Leave, the why did Johnson defer from becoming PM then as that’s what he campaigned for? And why all the fuss over trying to attain a deal when it was made clear beforehand that none was to be had? Sorry, but being in USA I didn’t follow the opening acts very closely.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2019 22:15 utc | 56

for your edification
No comment

Posted by: the pessimist | Sep 4 2019 22:17 utc | 57

Any fans of Jacob Rees-Mogg should understand that by becoming Leader of the House, a Cabinet position, under Boris Johnson, he became a war criminal. If he really was an honourable man, he’d march himself off to the Hague pdq. Better yet, he’d save the ICC the cost and effort, take out his Webley Mk1 Service Revolver and blow out the shit that passes for his brains. The MkIII .445 Webly Cartridge would be most appropriate, although I do have a problem with anything which suggests Jacob Rees-Mogg is a man.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 4 2019 22:19 utc | 58

The claim made by some here that Brexit is some kind of plot hatched by the capitalists and financiers of the City of London is ludicrously false.
They have been against it all the way, most recently evidenced by the Financial Times (house journal of the capitalist class) backing of a Corbyn government as a way of thwarting Brexit.
Now, in a very important way, I would until recently have welcomed a Corbyn government. I have voted for him many times as my MP because of what I used to think of as his principals as an opponent of British imperialsm AND as a career-long Bennite (Tony not his awful son Hillary) left euro-sceptic who recognised that the EU is an undemocratic and capitalistic construct. Except – he has now abandoned his objections to the EU and now wishes to remain. He did this to keep hold of power as Labour leader, and to draw on the substantial support of elitist remainers at the high-end of British society. If he does that, why would he be true to his objections to British warmongery when such a position would harm his career? Answer – he wouldn’t, especially when enjoying the support of his new allies – the City of London.
So please, Pyscho (and I enjoy much of your contribution here), stop pretending that the City of pro-Brexit. It isn’t. It is pro-EU, like most of the ruling elite – and a few toffy Etonians with capital portfolios do not represent the majority of the classes that make up the ruling elite here, who predominantly back the EU. The core of the desire to leave comes from the lower orders – whose ‘betters’ would clearly like to deny them the vote, and to return to the 19th century when only the Great and the Good were allowed a say in politics.

Posted by: Ash Naz (London) | Sep 4 2019 22:31 utc | 59

This vid seems to be Corbyn’s answer for the day and includes this segment provided by Corbyn with more said in vid:
“When No Deal is off the table, once and for all, we should go back to the people in a public vote or a General Election to decide our country’s future.”
Sadiq Khan seems to be echoing Corbyn:
“This has gone beyond party politics. Tonight’s @peoplesvote_uk rally was about defending our democracy.
“Thanks to everyone who joined us – we need to keep up the pressure to stop a catastrophic No Deal – and give the public the final say on Brexit.”
I must agree there’s a good argument that Remainers are slyly trying to get a second vote on the issue, not just a general election.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2019 22:39 utc | 60

Oh, and the remain MPs are against a general election. Why’s that? Hmmm?
Because they know that this remain-parliament is not representative of the people in the country.

Posted by: Ash Naz (London) | Sep 4 2019 22:44 utc | 61

“As I see it, Johnson is for Leaving with zero conditions–No Deal Brexit–whereas Corbyn is for Leaving with conditions–A Cushioned Brexit. The former doesn’t give a damn about who gets harmed while the latter has a great deal of care regarding harm to anyone. And I don’t see that very realistic appraisal being made.”
karlof1@39 sums up the position admirably. It is not very complicated, and it clearly shows that the Tory trolls, appearing here for the first time, attacking Corbyn are doing so, in co-ordination with their more highly paid colleagues in the MSM bordello, in order to ensure that in future votes only the usual suspects-the 50% or so who believe what they are told and bever miss a chance to show it-will take part.
As was the case with the referendum a very high turnout, involving in particular young voters, will be necessary to elect Corbyn and ensure Brexit without drama- a friendly and grown up cutting of the ties and an end to almost a century of British submission to US Imperialism. An exit likely to be followed in relatively short order by France and others of the Original Six.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 4 2019 22:47 utc | 62

Snake@19
“I still don’t understand why the good people of England don’t just write up an new constitution and vote on its ratification.”
They don’t have a constitution. But yeah, maybe nows a good time to write one up. That should take about a century to get one that would be acceptable to all and would likely serve the interests of the elite when all is said snd done.

Posted by: Pft | Sep 4 2019 22:48 utc | 63

@ 57 Ash Naz
The City of London is split on Brexit, like everybody else. Camp 1 see the EU as wanting to clamp down on finance – so far they managed to stall the EU but for how long? They see the rise of China and want to enter that market financially without pesky EU directives holding them back. Essentially they see the US and the EU as losers and want to get on the Far East gravy train.
Camp 2 is saying hold on. The EU is still the largest trading block and the City as part of Europe is the ideal place for states such as China to do its money business in. It is the place where financially anything goes and can exploit its particular expertise going back centuries to get a piece of the Chinese pie. And leaving the EU will give rise to alternative financial centres in places like Frankfurt.
It’s all part of the global repositioning that is taking place.

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 4 2019 22:52 utc | 64

22
The question is not do you trust Johnson (not really) or Corbyn? The question is: do you trust the EU?

Posted by: Bob | Sep 4 2019 22:54 utc | 65

A general election was never going to happen because the votes were never there.
This stunt sets up the next round of the farce, probably a new referendum (at the urging of Corbyn).
The scaremongering will result in REMAIN prevailing and the establishment will have won.
They’ve planned for this a long time.
I called this when BoJo became PM: BOJO and Brexit: a transparent subterfuge.
A few days later, Corbyn said he would campaign for REMAIN if a no-deal Brexit meant hardship for the British people (as it almost certainly would).
I’ve repeated and expanded my analysis since, like here and here.
<> <> <> <> <> <> <>
And lets not forget b’s prescient call: Brexit: Not Gonna Happen and his follow-up: The #ReverseBrexit Campaign Has Begun.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 4 2019 23:15 utc | 66

@ 64 Jackrabbit
Have you read my post @ 42? In my post I show how Britain has blocked every EU intent to control the out of control finance sector in order to reinforce neoliberal policies.

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 4 2019 23:35 utc | 67

Is the House of Lords, as the Senate in the US, filled by those with incomes placing them in upper middle class and higher?
Why can’t the House of Commons, along with the House of Representatives in the US, be filled with only working class incomes of of a specified middle class wage and below?
Seems to me getting the financial bias out of government can actually be done based on how both governments are already set up, by specifying seats to those those who have more and retaining seats for those who have less.
Obviously, something needs to change as the majority have so few voices compared to the rich in both our governments.

Posted by: Just Curious | Sep 4 2019 23:39 utc | 68

The far right have been defeated in their attempts to take our country out on a no deal. They dont want negotiation with the eu. They want a total break and a realignment with the US and Trump in particular. This would be disastrous for the UK. There are no trade deals better than what we already have.
The UK needs a new government based on real investment in its declining services and a redistribution of wealth in favour of the bottom 20%.

Posted by: Hermius | Sep 4 2019 23:43 utc | 69

JR,
When the government cannot govern because it has lost control of the House there has to be a general election. Obviously. Usually it is the opposition calling for a GE because it should be confident that it can win the support of the country. Except this is not happening because the opposition feels it does NOT currently have the support of the electorate, and so insists on clinging to the MPs, many of whom know that their constituents will defenestrate them at the ballot.
But ultimately you are right that they will run the referendum as many times as is necessary to get the result they want, and then they will claim that this result is binding.
Though there will still be 17 million very pissed off people.

Posted by: Ash Naz (London) | Sep 4 2019 23:46 utc | 70

Lochearn,
Are you claiming that the EU that forbade Italy from passing an anti-austerity budget is something other than neo-liberal? That is a perfect example of what neo-liberalism is, from the von Mises / Hayek model which proposes a system which puts the possibility of electing a government in opposition to the freedom for capital to do what capital wants to do beyond the reach of mere voters.

Posted by: Ash Naz (London) | Sep 4 2019 23:54 utc | 71

@ 64 Jackrabbit
I think you are getting to the point where you should have your own blog. When people start using bold and colors and underlines it’s obvious they’re getting to think they’re the dude.
Unfortunately here we have an amazing dude called b.

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 4 2019 23:56 utc | 72

Lochearn @65 and @70
I referenced b’s skepticism that the establishment would allow a Brexit in my comment @64.
And I do have my own blog. As do some of the others that contribute here.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 5 2019 0:17 utc | 73

Now that parliament has voted against a general election and also voted that the government must ask the EU for an extension and No Deal is off the table and the current PM who no longer has a majority has said he’s not gonna do anything, what happens next?

Posted by: ab initio | Sep 5 2019 0:20 utc | 74

Hermius @67: … redistribution of wealth in favour of the bottom 20%.
That’ll probably never happen, if there’s a redistribution it would probably target the middle 20% (thought the bottom 20% would also see some benefit).
=
Ash Naz @68: … 17 million very pissed off people.
The REMAINers attack them as “rascist” but they are more like union members whose only means of preventing management (establishment) abuses is solidarity.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 5 2019 0:28 utc | 75

bevin @60–
Thanks for the accolade! I can understand why Corbyn may not want an immediate election due to the very ugly, longstanding smear campaign waged against him by UK BigLie Media that’s had an effect on the electorate. That combined with many Blairite Labour Traitors wanting their perks prolonged as long as possible makes for a complicated reality. Two things are known: Leave will occur; a General Election will occur. What must be decided is the timing. The process would be simplified if Scotland became independent prior and Northern Ireland finally combined with the rest of the island, also prior–they both voted Remain and would likely increase their participation in the next election to vote similarly–but for what party as I don’t know any actively campaigning to Remain. It would be quite helpful for Lochearn or another UK-based commentator to give his/her take on the above. In his @42, it seems clear he favors neoliberal defeat–BoJo, Tories, LibDems, and UKiP–and Corbyn victory to reestablish what the neoliberals ruined and then some. IMO the situation is similar to that in Canada and within Outlaw US Empire–just swap Trudeau and Trump for BoJo/Hard Leave–which is what 2020 is firming to become.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 5 2019 0:42 utc | 76

@ 71
Thanks for that. Again, have you read how Britain have continuously pushed for neoliberal policies in my posts?
So why are you on the side of this shitty nation that has imposed untold suffering on the rest of the world?

Posted by: Lochearn | Sep 5 2019 0:46 utc | 77

OT– re 737MAX and SanOnofre Nuc Pwr fiascos: I wrote a highly relevant comment on prior thread demonstrating the absence of Federal Agency oversight. you all might enjoy it.
see : chu teh | September 04, 2019 at 23:20

Posted by: chu teh | Sep 5 2019 0:51 utc | 78

Jezza will never campaign for remain again because not only would staying in the EU hogtie him from ever making the changes england must have to ensure people get a fair shake, the last/first referendum has demonstrated that advocating remain will deny him the opportunity to get in a position where he can make the changes.
That is the reason that the last Labour conference made a second referendum the lowest priority with negotiating a brexit that suits the top alternative. This is what Corbyn will argue for and will get as a sensible quiet negotiation with Brussels will get some crucial concessions that the Tory “what we say goes, we are england!” bluster could never achieve.
Most likely will be a period of remaining in the single market with the ability to negotiate other deals and an end to the ban on england re-nationalising monopoly transportation and energy monopolies.
The EU will take some persuading but now they know the alternative is a crash out that will crank up some of the best corporate donors in France and Germany -Plus leave the financial community with a big mess to sort out, they will probably agree to a lot of the Corbyn points.
If Jezza manages to delay an election until Johnson has been totally revealed as the incompetent dingbat he is, Labour won’t only win the election, they will profit from the cheap sideshow horror act the tories staged in Brussels.
Will Jeremy pull it off? I dunno but the odds have certainly improved in the last coupla days.

Posted by: A User | Sep 5 2019 1:01 utc | 79

i am unfamiliar with the shorthand… who is jezza??

Posted by: james | Sep 5 2019 1:09 utc | 80

Why is Jeremy’s nickname “Jezza”?.. okay got it jeremy clarkson..

Posted by: james | Sep 5 2019 1:10 utc | 81

i guess that is debs is dead…

Posted by: james | Sep 5 2019 1:12 utc | 82

Lochearn @75
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of my position.
Ironically, it appears that you haven’t read what I’ve written.
I’m not advocating for or against Brexit. I’m saying that REMAIN will prevail (which you want to happen!) because the West is fundamentally undemocratic and EU/NATO are fundamentally controlled creations of the Empire.
The illusion of democracy has become ever more illusory – to the point of farce.
1. You CAN’T vote against the EU, and if you do, it will not be allowed to stand.
2. You CAN’T vote against Empire/military spending.
3. You CAN’T vote against Israel (doing so would be anti-Empire).
4. You CAN’T vote against the new Cold War.
5. You CAN’T vote against money-in-politics and corporate-controlled press.
6. You CAN’T vote against the police state (pervasive surveillance) – which is required because of 1-5.
<> <> <> <> <> <>
I argue, repeatedly, against accepting the establishment’s play-acting but everyone (like yourself) just can’t seem to see past it. They set and control of the terms of the debate. They control the media (in many ways but especially via “access journalism”). And they know more about us than we know about ourselves (via extensive polling and demographic data).
If that sounds dystopic, it is. It’s why we have the weirdness of White Helmets, Epstein, the Skripals, and more. Now they are increasingly clamping down on “fake news” so that soon we may not be able to expose these things.
By pointing out the inevitability of REMAIN prevailing, I’m hoping that (when it does happen) some of you will wake up. BREXIT was never going to be allowed to succeed. b’s initial reaction to BREXIT was in complete agreement with my view.
Welcome to the rabbit hole.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 5 2019 1:39 utc | 83

james @78 and @79
He’s referring to Jeremy Corbyn.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 5 2019 1:41 utc | 84

Eu = Hotel California

Posted by: paul | Sep 5 2019 1:54 utc | 85

@82 jr… thanks.. apparently it is a common english nickname for someone named jeremy or jerry..learn something every day..

Posted by: james | Sep 5 2019 2:07 utc | 86

NakedCapitalism has been my favorite source for understanding Brexit & related Brit politics. Today’s thread…
brexit-thar-she-blows
…brought out some nuanced analysis by several British commenters who drill further into the devious twists of Parliamentary procedure, electoral positioning, Irish Backstop, etc, than what I see here (no offence meant). Labour’s vote against a snap GE is viewed as avoiding a trap set by BoJo. Most credible commenters are clear that the future is very uncertain.
I’m skeptical of Brexit; leaving the EU will make Britain a US Protectorate, which will be bad for both of us.

Posted by: elkern | Sep 5 2019 2:20 utc | 87

@ vk | Sep 4 2019 18:34 utc | 20

And you forgot the fact that those 72.2% of turnout…..

No, I didn’t because a referendum is not an election as nobody is elected in a referendum, so comparing turnouts in general elections and a referendum is largely irrelevant. The 2016 referendum was one of the very rare occasions in British politics when every vote actually counted.

was an absolute record for any British election in post-war history

Which war was that? The 1992/95 Bosnian War?


Election   Turnout
1945       72.8%
1950       83.9%
1951       82.6%
1955       76.8%
1959       78.7%
1964       77.1%
1966       75.8%
1970       72%
Feb. 1974  78.8%
Oct. 1974  72.8%
1979       76%
1983       72.7%
1987       75.3%
1992       77.7%
1997       71.4%
2001       59.4%
2005       61.4%
2010       65.1%
2015       66.1%
2017       68.7%

With the population two years older, there will be less Brexit supporters and more Remain supporters, and with the Conservatives austerity program having resulted in 137,000 excess deaths over the last ten years, there are approximately 30,000 more people pissed of with the Conservative Party than there were at the time of the referendum. The outcome of another referendum or general election on a single policy is probably not as clear cut as you want to believe

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 5 2019 2:27 utc | 88

>>>> SteveK9 | Sep 4 2019 22:01 utc | 52
Sorry but I can’t help you there as it would go against my principles and would be hypocritical.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 5 2019 2:33 utc | 89

Bit wobbly with the Webley – should have been MkIII .455 Webley Cartridge

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 5 2019 2:43 utc | 90

What is fascism if not the complete disregard for any law, promises, agreements, and contracts and the rights of anyone except when it suits those in power or with the most power? The law corrupted and no longer blindfolded, the law twisted and bent and abused.
So here’s a more interesting Brexit question: do the fascists in the EU believe any of this benefits the fascist EU? If so why?
Brexit has been great at revealing what people believe in.
All the talk about “a deal” is nonsense, there never was any implied “deal” only an exit and that’s why there was no such nonsense put to the vote either. If there was to be any deal it had to be up to the EU to entice the UK into one and they’re obviously not able to do that.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 5 2019 2:44 utc | 91

Sunny Runny Burger @89
Exactly. And Theresa May’s “negotiating” was meant to fail. She was just setting up BoJo’s Power Play.
The West is fundamentally not democratic, though the “Democracy Works!” propaganda tries to convince otherwise. Who voted for a new Cold War? Who voted to occupy Afghanistan for 18 years? Who voted for massive inequality? Who voted to militarize space? Who voted to ignore bank malfeasance that caused the 2008 Global Financial Crisis? Etc.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 5 2019 2:59 utc | 92

@ Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 5 2019 2:27 utc | 86
But democracy is democracy — that transcendental, cosmic substance Westerners like to talk about, invented in Ancient Greece etc. etc.
I’m simply using the liberal rhetoric weapon against themselves. You cannot talk about “Democracy” one day and, next day, say this other thing is “not Democracy”. Either you have democracy (Demos= majority, Kratos= power, i.e. dictatorship of the majority) or you don’t — there’s no such a thing as “more Democracy” or “less Democracy”. You can’t put a political system into a test tube and detect how much is its “democratium” concentration, it’s just an idea that people use, depending on the weather, to their own interests.

Posted by: vk | Sep 5 2019 3:10 utc | 93

Every discussion about Brexit online and in person seems to be full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. I suspect no-one understands what the implications of Brexit are, but they’re adamant that its brilliantly liberating, or foolishly catastrophic.
Oh the political discussions make total sense. People have opinions about leaders, policies, etc. and that’s normal but I mean discussions about why Brexit practically matters.
Here is how the conversation normally goes:
Q. What are the implications of Brexit?
A. It will be an unmitigated disaster
Q. Oh why is that?
A. There will be thousands of trucks lined up, people starving in the streets,…
Q. Wow. Why will that happen?
A. Why? er, because they’re going to “crash out” of the EU
Q. ok, but so what? won’t they just buy stuff like any other country does now?
A. umm…
Q. I mean, what’s the big deal? I don’t get it
A. shut up you bloody commie/leftie/nazi…!
Sigh. I just ask simple questions but it doesn’t go well.

Posted by: Deltaeus | Sep 5 2019 4:04 utc | 94

@92
Totally get it. I like to ask questions too but never seem to get satisfactory answers. It seems so many are caught up in their biases.
What happens if Boris does nothing? Would the U.K. “crash out” on October 31st?

Posted by: ab initio | Sep 5 2019 4:16 utc | 95

As an outsider, sounds pretty simple to me.
The country’s GDP relies on the City of London. But this is the Bankster’s GDP, not that of the working class voter, who cannot vote Corbyn, as this is a vote for the Africanization of their country.
Therefore, in the absence of a no deal exit, Farage will sweep to victory, via landslide.

Posted by: necromancer | Sep 5 2019 5:20 utc | 96

My understanding is that Brexit means no-deal.
Any deal means complying with EU requirements. In other words, exiting with a deal is identical to remain, except UK loses its vote in the EU parliament.
Am I incorrect in my reasoning?

Posted by: necromancer | Sep 5 2019 5:52 utc | 97

@96 Necromancer
Yes, I’m sorry but your reasoning is unfortunately incorrect. The EU’s position on this has been clear from the start: how many of the advantages of being part of the EU Britain retained after leaving depended on how closely Britain continued to follow the EU’s rules. In other words, for example, Britain could eventually negotiate a relationship with the EU similar to that which Norway (a country closely affiliated with the EU) has, or it could have a relationship with the EU similar to what Canada (an country which is not closely affiliated with the EU but which does have a trade agreement with the EU) has. Or it could leave with no agreement and only get the bare minimum level of trading cooperation provided by World Trade Organization rules. But it couldn’t have Norway’s level of privilege in return for Canada’s level of reciprocal obligations.

Posted by: Glenn | Sep 5 2019 6:23 utc | 98

As of 7am Thurs 5 th of September
The British govenment have agreed to allow the law preventing a – – – ‘no deal Brixit’
Let that sink in for a moment!
The law will be passed early next week.
With no deal off the table, a vote to have a general election on the 15th of October will now take place.
B’s photo at the top of this page has attached a lot of attention, here and else where. By luck or judgement that one picture cuts through all the fog of the debate ! That photo is of Prime-minister Boris Johnson’s deepstate handler, elite handler call them what you will.
Thank you karlofi, Lochern and Bevin you guys are bang on target, I recommend all to take note of their opinion!
And please note Jeremy Corbyn masterly skill in navigating the massive attempts to distroy his reputation over the recent years. And still he stands !!! Bloody encredable !

Posted by: Mark2 | Sep 5 2019 6:25 utc | 99

@ Elkern 85
I agree Naked Capitalism is good on this issue. Interesting forecast of Johnson’s strategy here. https://twitter.com/syrpis/status/1154286327699005440

Posted by: Albacore | Sep 5 2019 6:52 utc | 100

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