Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 14, 2019

Violent Protests In Hong Kong Reach Their Last Stage

The riots in Hong Kong are about to end.

The protests, as originally started in June, were against a law that would have allowed criminal extraditions to Taiwan, Macao and mainland China. The law was retracted and the large protests have since died down. What is left are a few thousand students who, as advertised in a New York Times op-ed, intentionally seek to provoke the police with "marginal violence":

Such actions are a way to make noise and gain attention. And if they prompt the police to respond with unnecessary force, as happened on June 12, then the public will feel disapproval and disgust for the authorities. The protesters should thoughtfully escalate nonviolence, maybe even resort to mild force, to push the government to the edge. That was the goal of many people who surrounded and barricaded police headquarters for hours on June 21.

The protesters now use the same violent methods that were used in the Maidan protests in the Ukraine. The U.S. seems to hope that China will intervene and create a second Tianamen scene. That U.S. color revolution attempt failed but was an excellent instrument to demonize China. A repeat in Hong Kong would allow the U.S. to declare a "clash of civilization" and increase 'western' hostility against China. But while China is prepared to intervene it is unlikely to do the U.S. that favor. Its government expressed confidence that the local authorities will be able to handle the issue.

There are rumors that some Hong Kong oligarchs were originally behind the protests to prevent their extradition for shady deals they made in China. There may be some truth to that. China's president Xi Jingpin is waging a fierce campaign against corruption and Hong Kong is a target rich environment for fighting that crime.

The former British colony is ruled by a handful of oligarchs who have monopolies in the housing, electricity, trade and transport markets:

The book to read is Land and the Ruling Class in Hong Kong (2010) by Alice Poon, which explains how the lack of competition law created outrageous wealth for the tycoons. It’s a complex subject but the key point is that in Hong Kong all land is leasehold and ultimately owned by the government, which uses it as a means of raising revenue. This goes back to the days of empire when British policy required colonies to be self-funding. The system kept taxes down and attracted business – but one side-effect was that it gave the government an interest in rationing land to keep it expensive. That didn’t matter much when the local economy comprised a few traders but, in the modern technological world of 2012, it puts the government at odds with every person and business wanting affordable space. Indeed, it induces the government to distort and damage the economy, and indeed society.

This system paved the way for a handful of Hong Kong families to become unimaginably wealthy by getting their hands on cheap land back in the days before the city started to boom.

Rents and apartment prices in Hong Kong are high. People from the mainland who buy up apartments with probably illegally gained money only increase the scarcity. This is one reason why the Cantonese speaking Hong Kong protesters spray slurs against the Mandarin speaking people from the mainland. The people in Hong Kong also grieve over their declining importance. Hong Kong lost its once important economical position. In 1993 Hong Kong's share of China's GDP was 27%. It is now less than a tenths of that and the city is now more or less irrelevant to mainland China.

Democracy in Hong Kong is restricted to further the interests of the oligarchs:

In the 70-seat legislature, only half of the members are directly elected. The other half are selected by special interest groups—such as the financial and real estate professions—meaning that the body tends to be controlled by a mostly pro-Beijing business elite rather than by voters. The city’s Beijing-backed leader, Chief Executive Carrie Lam, likewise lacks a popular mandate.

The current protests are surely not an incentive to remove those restrictions or to invest in Hong Kong. They are counter productive.

While the protests against the extradition bill may have been backed by some tycoons, it is obvious that there is also a large U.S. government influence behind them. It is the U.S., not some oligarchs, which is behind the current rioting phase.

In 1992 Congress adopted the United States–Hong Kong Policy Act which mandates U.S. government 'pro-democracy' policies in Hong Kong. Some Senators and lobbyists now push for a Support Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act which would intensify the interference. Before the June protests started Secretary of State (and former CIA head) Mike Pompeo met with the Hong Kong 'pro-democracy' leader Martin Lee and later with 'pro-democracy' media tycoon Jimmy Lai. The National Endowment for Democracy finances several of the groups behind the protests.

Such interference is against Hong Kong's Basic Law:

The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organizations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organizations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organizations or bodies.

Despite that law the U.S. National Endowment of Democracy spends millions on organizations in Hong Kong:


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The political officer of the U.S. consulate in Hong Kong, the largest in the world, meets with notorious rabble-rousers like Yoshua Wong.


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That some protesters sing the U.S. national anthem and wave U.S. flags (vid) or fire U.S. made grenade launchers (vid) will not motivate patriotic locals to join them. The protesters also fly Pepe the frog flags and use that rightwing fringe symbol on their pamphlets and flyers. It rather fits that Hillary Clinton and Dominic Raab support them.


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To use the British colonial flag to call for Chinese 'colonists' to leave requires some brain twisting.


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The rioters equipment comes from "strangers" who create depots of gas masks, helmets, laser pointers etc, that trusted demonstrators then distribute to their fellows. Mysteriously hundreds of subway tickets appear which are handed out for free to the junior university students who, during their current holidays, make up the mass of the violent black block that attacks the police.


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The rightwing Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions has long been financed by U.S. regime change organizations. That it represents the airport workers may be the reason why the protests recently escalated there. The last three days protesters blocked the Hong Kong airport and violently hindered people from departing on their booked flights.

Travelers who spoke Mandarin were attacked. The scene became extremely ugly when a journalist from the Chinese Global Times was beaten until he fainted. Protesters claimed that he was with the police and hindered paramedics from reaching and caring for the man. Only when police intervened were the first-aiders able to remove the unconscious person. One of the rioters who beat the man had a U.S. flag in his hand (vid). When the stretcher was rolled out of the airport another protester with a U.S. flag on a pole ran after it and beat the patient (vid).

James Griffith, a CNN International producer, was on the scene.

𝕛𝕒𝕞𝕖𝕤 𝕘𝕣𝕚𝕗𝕗𝕚𝕥𝕙𝕤 @jgriffiths - 14:24 UTC · Aug 13, 2019

Ugly confrontation between a huge crowd of protesters and a man they believe is an undercover cop has been ongoing for over an hour now. Have zip tied the man’s hands and fighting over whether to move him. He’s collapsed twice.
...
Its all so ugly and angry and nihilistic. Asked kids who said he was faking what if he wasn’t, they said who cares. Asked what if he dies, who cares. Asked them what they think will happen if he is a cop and he dies, “so they shutdown HK? Good! We are ready for it, we want it.”
...
This was a movement famous for clearing thousands of people out of the way on the streets to let an ambulance through, now blocking a stretcher while a handful of more reasonable people in tears try to reason with them.
...
Most surreal moments have been people (seeing press vest) come up to “explain” to me things they’re clearly getting from Telegram, claiming without evidence the guy is 100% a cop because someone Googled him, or that he had weapons (different guy) or that he was faking fainting.

Read Griffiths whole thread here. There are also plenty of videos from the scene that document the ghastly behavior.

Later Griffiths further explained:

𝕛𝕒𝕞𝕖𝕤 𝕘𝕣𝕚𝕗𝕗𝕚𝕥𝕙𝕤 @jgriffiths - 5:44 UTC · Aug 14, 2019

(1) man found with numchuk like weapon, released after brief confrontation and showing ID.
(2) man accused of being undercover cop, beaten and restrained with zip ties. Paramedic reached him to give him oxygen and aid after he passed out. evacuated to ambulance after 4-5 hours.
(3) man later confirmed to be Global Times reporter. Briefly restrained and then released after first aiders intervened.

Another 'western' journalist expressed a rather wretched understanding of freedom of the press:

Melissa Chan @melissakchan - 20:40 UTC · Aug 13, 2019

What has happened with the man detained and physically abused by some protesters at the Hong Kong airport is appalling and must stop now. But he works for The Global Times, a propaganda arm of the Chinese state, and he is not a journalist and should not be called that.


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Melissa Chan worked for Al Jazeerah, the propaganda arm of the emir of Qatar. She now works for DW, the propaganda arm of the German government. By her own criterion she is neither a journalist nor should she be called one.

The airport now received a court order that allows it to restrict further protests.

The police still holds back as much as it can. In most other countries this scene, in which a beaten policeman briefly pulls his gun, would have ended deadly.

Last month the government in Hong Kong brought a former top officer out of retirement to handle the protests. There have since been some changes in police tactics. Where previously protestors got away with building barricades and throwing stones they now get arrested and end up in jail. Undercover policemen snatched some riot leaders off the streets.

Local people increasingly turn against the rioters. Those who depend on tourism have good reason to call for a crack down on them. The violent behavior of the protesters gives the police more public leeway for harsh responses. There are many additional methods that can be used. The police refrained so far from encircling and mass arresting rioters, a tactic that is used in many other countries. Its water cannon vehicles were shown off but not put into action. The police has not yet cracked down on the communication with "strangers" even though it is likely to listen to some of it. This end phase will soon come.

There is also an automatic end date for the riots. On September 2 the new semester begins and the students will turn back to studies. The rioters will lose their critical mass. The whole issue will end up as another failure without the U.S. achieving any of its aims.

Mainland Chinese who view the chaos in Hong Kong in all its glory will now reject any talk of 'pro-democracy'.

Meanwhile China intensifies its belt and road initiative and Trump loses his trade war:

Responding to pressure from businesses and growing fears that a trade war is threatening the U.S. economy, the Trump administration is delaying most of the import taxes it planned to impose on Chinese goods and is dropping others altogether.

The administration says it still plans to proceed with 10% tariffs on about $300 billion in Chinese imports [...]

But under pressure from retailers and other businesses, President Donald Trump’s trade office said it would delay until Dec. 15 the tariffs on nearly 60% of the imports that had been set to absorb the new taxes starting Sept. 1. Among the products that will benefit from the 3½-month reprieve are such popular consumer goods as cellphones, laptops, video game consoles, some toys, computer monitors, shoes and clothing.

The administration is also removing other items from the tariff list entirely, based on what it called “health, safety, national security and other factors.”

Russia's agriculture thrives on sales to China while U.S. farmers lose market share. The anti-Chinese part of Trump's MAGA has yet to achieve any success.

Posted by b on August 14, 2019 at 15:14 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Can someone explain why China wants Hong Kong so badly anyway? I mean, Hong Kong clearly is not that into her...

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 14 2019 15:32 utc | 1

@Anacharsis, #1: China's wish to have HK is political, i.e. a wish to not have any foreign powers, least of all Western, sitting on a tip of Chinese land. It is as simple as the UK wanting the Isle of Wight to be British, even though in economic terms relative to UK GDP Wight reprensents virtually nothing.

Posted by: Ernesto Che | Aug 14 2019 15:47 utc | 2

You forgot France, b. The behaviour of the so-called "black blocs" in the gilets jaunes demonstrations was entirely consistent with what is going on in Hong Kong. The French don't seem to have cottoned on yet, but someone must have been paying. Hooligans don't just come out for nothing on a regular basis to do a hard day's work smashing banks, offices and totally uninvolved shops. If it's the same model, it's probably the same financier.

Posted by: Laguerre | Aug 14 2019 15:47 utc | 3

Why does China want Hong Kong? Well, Hong Kong was always a part of China. The English seized the city during the Opium Wars, as part of a treaty that put an end to one of the steps of English aggression against China. Even then, the English only got a 99 year lease. That expired towards the end of the 20th century. China was of course happy to see a part of their country that had been stolen by the English returned to them. Can't really think of an example where the USA has had a portion of its nation stolen from them, but it isn't hard to imagine that they'd want it back. They were certainly willing to kill a lot of people just to get back a part of America that seceded and tried to tell the Yankees that they weren't all that into them anyways.

Posted by: Who Dat | Aug 14 2019 15:51 utc | 4

U.S. retailers were apparently successful lobbying the administration to back off on the tariffs due to holiday sales. The concern was having the tariffs hit in September meant the U.S. consumer would indeed be paying more for the goods described in this post, which would have hurt sales. It's why the tariffs are now delayed until Dec 15.

As for the protests in Hong Kong, it certainly is more than plausible the U.S. has a hand in them. To what degree is anybody's best guess. I just hope the protesters return to nonviolence b/c the violence described by b in this post is totally unnecessary if they are sincere in advancing their pro-democracy cause.

Posted by: h | Aug 14 2019 15:58 utc | 5

The most violent rioters, amongst them those who hold the US flag, have obviously the order or to kill somebody, better a policeman ( as the clear intend on the GT journalist shows... ) or to provoke some killing of a protester, or by accideent of a journalist ( who, btw, astonishingly, remain in the middle of the melee always...I find this very suspicious, which is their insurance company? I want it for my travels...Most probably not journalists themselves but rioters in disguise ), as these intends of assasination happened very timely, almost simulteneously with or consecutive to Trump´s Twitter on that he expected nobody will result with any harm.... obviously from his terrorists side...

BTW, this behavior have time ago passed from ghastly to straight criminal, under any country´s law.

In the US, none of these terrorists would still remain alive, they would never had been able to get so close to any policeman so as to grab his batton leaving him unarmed. They would had been shot in place, the whole bunch of them...as we so usually watch happens with black people there....Why The Donald ( and Bannon, the Pepe Frog exposes him all the way, they already do not even try to conceal anymore...) thiks any country in the world would have to allow this?

I posted some of these videos yesterday in the week review thread ( and I am glad "b" gave them some greater visibility..) and to my view, some of these rioters, especially those who talk with the travelers seem to be on drugs....It´s an appreciation on how their tongue slide so much plus the slowness with which they talk, in such stressant situation, very contrasting with, for example, the elder summoning the rioter in the subway. See the very thin guy talking with the Australian businessman in the video i posted in the week and review thread....
I wonder whether these could be people taken from jail or correstionals, as they were part of the ISIS recruits who flew to Turkey to be tarinned and then to Syria, their behavior is clearly antisocial, no wonder any real complaint they could have ...

In the video on "strangers" supplying the rioters, there are two totally masked and covered women ( all the way the ISIS handlers style...) who, by their phisical complexion and hair, seem to not be Chinese women at all, but Westerners...at 2:21 footage....Most probably NED/CIA operatives...

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 16:06 utc | 6

Here is an article that explains one key way that Washington is meddling in the affairs of Hong Kong:


https://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2019/08/how-washington-is-meddling-in-affairs.html


While the ideals of democracy are admirable and desirable, Washington's version of democracy is tainted by big money and has developed into a system where politicians are for sale to the highest bidder.

Posted by: Sally Snyder | Aug 14 2019 16:10 utc | 7

The people of Hong Kong represent the dreams of every individual that has been put to heel by the boots of empire, to live with freedom and dignity in a culture that is of their own. B pointed out that there is cultural difference between the mainlanders and the people of Hong Kong, and that should be maintained because human diversity is beautiful when it isn't be forced through the identity shredder that is modernity. If Hong Kong falls to the Mandarin menace, I fear it will be lights out for the rest of this century as the Han ant swarm overruns most of the world. If living under a white supremacist system in the 20th century was a nightmare, imagine the hell of living under Han supremacist. DEATH TO XI JINPING PING AND VICTORY TO THE PEOPLE OF HONG KONG!

Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 16:12 utc | 8

As Laguerre knows, very well, there are enormous differences between the demonstrations in France and the riots in Hong Kong. One of them being the ultra violent way in which the French police, and army, have reacted to peaceful marchers with entirely reasonable political demands.
So far as Anacharsis' plea is concerned: Hong Kong has always been part of China. It was seized by the British in order to facilitate the illegal drug traffic of the East India Company. The Chinese government, concerned at the social and economic mayhem caused by imported opium, paid for in silver, banned its import. The British government, which relied on the revenues it got from exporting cheap Indian opium, grown on stolen land, insisted that China allow the trade to continue. And enforced its demands militarily-the Opium Wars. Within fifty years of these wars and Hong Kong's occupation by the British on a 99 year lease, a significant proportion, close to 20% of China's men were addicted to opium.
That is why China wanted to regain sovereignty over Hong Kong. As to the assertion that the local people don't want Chinese rule but long for the British-now under US rule- to return, that is simply untrue.
As b has been pointing out the troubles in Hong Kong are almost certainly organised by the US government.
Laguerre suspects that the same is true of the gilets jaunes. Does anyone else believe that Macron is being attacked by the US government?

Posted by: bevin | Aug 14 2019 16:18 utc | 9

What a fucking mess the Empire has made over the last century.

Trying to reconcile my belief in democracy with non-intervention makes this one tricky. I have no desire to support the fascist United States in attempting to subvert another country's government. The cultural gap (and therefore lack of knowledge and understanding) between the west and China is so vast it makes attempting to separate genuine journalism from McCarthy-ist era style propaganda about the country very difficult, thus making a merits based comparison between the 2 spheres of power almost impossible. Most of the stories I hear about Chinese repression are obvious pro-western propaganda, which makes it tempting to dismiss other pieces of information out of hand.
I can only wish the best for the people of Hong Kong and China, whatever they decide that may be.

Laguerre hints at an interesting point I'd not considered with regards to the yellow vests in France - are they US aided? I'm still inclined to lean towards it being a more genuine grass roots movement from the limited bits I've seen, though I'd be intrigued to see what connections could be verified there. US state department attempting to push Frexit would certainly be a new angle to think about for a lot of us.

Posted by: Northern | Aug 14 2019 16:22 utc | 10

The official statement of the Chinese Embassy in the Russian Federation regarding the events in Hong Kong (in Russian).

The words at the end of the statement are very revealing, given the recent intentional provocations and riots of a bunch of marginals (aka "Russian liberal opposition") in Moscow:


A comprehensive partnership and strategic interaction have been established between China and the Russian Federation in a new era. Both countries have been unjustly charged for their level of freedom, democracy, and human rights. We are confident that we will meet the same attitude among the general public of the Russian Federation on the issues of Xiangang. We are confident in the understanding by the Russians of the determination and perseverance of China in protecting state prestige and sovereignty.

Posted by: alaff | Aug 14 2019 16:23 utc | 11

@8--

The people of Hong Kong were "put to heel by the boots of empire" and not allowed "to live with freedom and dignity in a culture that is of their own" when the British forcibly made China lease them the Hong Kong region as a spoil of the Opium Wars and they became subsumed within the British Empire. So, those you seek the death of by rights ought to be the remnants of the Anglophone Empire that ruled Hong Kong, created the inequalities of wealth and the laws that support same there, and is now involved in trying to destabilize Hong Kong. In other words, you indict yourself as an enemy of freedom and democracy and ought to be buried along with the Outlaw US Empire that you clearly support!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 16:23 utc | 12

Bevin @ 9

I wouldn't say I agree with Laguerre but it's certainly a dimension I'd not thought about. I could see a limited amount of sense in Ireland or France being primed as the replacement EU malcontent but I suspect that's seeing wheels within wheels that don't necessarily exist. I would imagine the rabidly pro-tory media in the UK would have been firmly on the side of the Gilets if there was US involvement, rather than trying to consign it to the memory hole as they have seemingly been doing.

Posted by: Northern | Aug 14 2019 16:30 utc | 13

"If Hong Kong falls to the Mandarin menace, I fear it will be lights out for the rest of this century as the Han ant swarm overruns most of the world." Empire Watcher.
Are you suggesting that, apart from the US Embassy staff, those involved in the anti-government actions are not Han? Do you think that they are Europeans? And that they have a different language?
As to 'ant swarms over running': this is just warmed over C19th Yellow Peril racism- a mental health issue, unrelated to politics.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 14 2019 16:32 utc | 14

@Posted by: Northern | Aug 14 2019 16:22 utc | 10

The harshest Chinese repression through these decades has been on poverty. China, figures amongst those countries who have taken most people out of poverty, along with Venezuela, in the world, and this is not me who says it, but ciphers of officila organisms like UN, and I fear even CIA factbook, hence the harsh harassment they are suffering. As it was the USSR immediately after WWII, with the whole working population in arms and trainned in war, China is simply a bad example in contrast with the US, where inequalities grow nonstop since its very inception but at galloping pace since the last 2008 collapse.

If some US government/USAF operatives of the ChiCom faction here want to scare us with the menace of a Han Empire coming, let it be,if not for a change. We have had enough of US/UK imperialism, we are fed up, at least here in Europe. For what we have seen through oour still not so long lives, the Chinese have never invaded any country, nor have provoked any war, nor have provoked several floods of refugees as a result, nor have exported their economic crisis, nor live on the backs of the rest of the world by benefitting from theri currency hegemony and blackmail, nor have promoted any colour revolution anywhere, nor have seized anybody´s assets/gold/deposits anywhere, nor have blockaded any country to starvation or death by impossibility to attend diseases, as the US/UK do all the time. They are hardworking people, at least more prone to share than greedy US elites and high middle class, plus far more polite and educated.

Let them come....although I fear they will remain in their country, only moving to do business....

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 16:40 utc | 15

@12

And I oppose British imperialism as well, but it is a matter of fact that Hong Kong under British imperialism, developed their own identity different than those of the rest of the mainland. The argument you make is the same argument made by those who wish to see North Korea subsumed into the Republic of Korea, given that North Korea was a creation of Soviet occupation following the end of the Second World War. It is the same argument made by Ukrainians who wish to put ethnic Russians to heel in the East.

@bevin

Chinese people are the most racist people I have ever met. I visted for a few weeks and as an African American, I was subjected to the worse kind of racism that I never experienced growing up in Arkansas. It is well known China wants to bring the world under its domination, thats why it floods developing markets with state enterprises. Han supremacy is coming if we let China roll over the two places keeping it in check, Hong Kong and Taiwan. Call me a racist, but there is a reason China is hated by all of their neighbors, and its the same reason America is hated by the most of the world: arrogance and hubris.

Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 16:50 utc | 16

B, thank you for the wealth of information. I take much of it with a grain of salt, however, but this is not because I don't believe hk mistrust of mainlanders have been co-opted into a feeble Maidan.

No, my mistrust of China stems from a natural form of living where I wish to enter into the great de-coupling event which will once again sever the east and west so the natural identities of both will once again be revealed as the globalist class is fully unveiled and will be the subject of great ire and concentration.

Most of the "trolls" here, I hope, like myself are just misconstrued nationalists, in one form or the other. We want our identity back and our country. Part of doing this, I believe, involves the demonizing of China which will allow the natural order to be reinvigorated in the west. I pray for this every day.

Fuck China.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Aug 14 2019 16:57 utc | 17

Notice that Western handlers in the "strangers" video have taken totally the MZLN style in masking, dressing and caps...except red star..of course...

This is clearly Bannon´s manufacture. He loves to make a mess of Europe and other countries the US has something against, while at the same time takes the opportunity to demonize usual legitimate demonstrations of the left and legitimate insurrectional movements against fascist dictatorships and oligarchichic rule impossed by his correligionaires in the US on LatinAmerica..
This way he shoots two birds woith one shot and prepare the terrain for the coming legitimate riots in the US when skies are falling...

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 16:58 utc | 18

I reiterate what I've said in an earlier post:

1. I believe the govt. strategy is to let HK burn until the silent masses comes around and give's the establishment the support they're lacking. And its starting to work.

2. PLA will not roll in. the massing and exercise is for domestic mainland consumption. CCP will not take the bait. But it doesn't stop the black blocs from trying. Here's a Vid of kids practicing a suicide charge with replica AR's and US flag. Just imagine the US sheeples seeing a US flag bearer falling in a hail of gunfire at 6pm news.....

3. Rightly or Wrongly, more and more people are saying they now understand why CCP had to act in Tianamen.

4. Starting to lose steam locally, more and more of the banners, signs and optics are in (bad) english, no prize for guessing why.

5. It still baffles me how seemingly educated peoples cannot process the simplest of logic. The girl who lost her eye (the reason why the black bloc and the attention diverting protests in the hospitals are wearing eye patches) is probably shot by her own team's ball bearing slingshot. The press picture with the bag round next to the mask was staged. There's live TV footage without the round and indeed without any gunfire in the relevant time during the incident. The police knows the score and is calling her out to make a statement and file a report. She has not done so. With the medico industry so in bed with the black bloc you'd think they'll scream murder if it was indeed a police round, again, nothing. no x-ray, no nothing. Rumours on the street are:
a. She's a bag girl for the black bloc and she's been skimming off the top. Pic
b. She's been threatened by the black bloc to not make a statement
c. Currently negotiating with her benefactor for a chunk of change or she'll squeal. (she might get epsteined)

6. A lot of businesses and livelihoods are suffering. Things are slowly turning but long term economic damage is already done.

7 The black bloc only get their info via social media. they only pick self reinforcing views and in effect they have brainwashed themselves with circular views into a horde of mindless fundamentalists zombies. My fear is that youth and hubris means they will see anything less than total victory as defeat and will not handle it well. People will die before this gets better. question will be which side the silent masses is on when that moment comes. The black bloc have taken the silence of the masses as support and approval. Its wearing thin.

I'm a realist and pragmatist. HK is China. Having said that I don't want CCP running HK totally just yet. I rather see China use the next 30 years to catch up a little more on a few things before 2047. Judging by how far china has come in the last 30 it won't even take that long.

p.s. Sorry for using filedropper for the linked files. I can't use social media platforms to host the files for possible repercussions with my paying job. B please feel free to fix it.

p.s.s I'll be here for a bit, ask away.

Posted by: A.L. | Aug 14 2019 16:59 utc | 19

@Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 16:50 utc | 16

In case it was true you suffered any racism, which by the tone of your fist post wishing death to Xu Jingpin, I very doubt, that, would have been in any case for being from the US, not for being AfricanAmerican...
Any way, any stories on how do you treated the first Chinese migrants in Arkansas when they arrived there to build your railways?
Seeing how you treat today to US born citizens like AOC, and other legal migrants in the US, dunno, but I fear the worst....

In any case, you reap what you sow...And, go preparing for things getting worse everywhere, soon you will probably get with only one or two countries where to go on vacation and be received well...Israel and KSA...Do not think by any hint of imagination that your snail mail menaces against local and national business working in Iran ( as it is the custom in certain Euroepan countries since humanity has memories ), blackmailing of officials on supporting your illegal coups d´etat in LatinAmerica, manipulation of electoral processes, and, above all, financing, promoting and raising of fascists here in Europe again, while at the same time starting a new cold war putting us, again, as battle field this time of nuclear rockets, will go unnoticed for most of the population who you think entertained 24/7 with WhatsApp, Netflix, Amazon or Instagram, or will go scott free....

All you do, leaves a sediment...and we have memories...even of fascist dictator Franco, who died in bed after 40 years of dreadful oppression with your blessing...Why did not you send your "peaceful demonstrators" then to Spain?

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 17:20 utc | 20

Bernhard, your analysis is dead wrong. You have no conception what it means to live in a country without any political freedom like China and without an independent judiciary. You are at the mercy of corrupt party officials and have to permanently schmooze them as otherwise they can take whatever you have and throw you in jail. That is the reality of China.
There´s all encompassing censorship in China and the screws have been tightened the last years. But there is a hole and it is Hongkong. That is why Hongkong is now coming under pressure. China doesn´t want to have to send kidnapping squads anymore to nab publishers like it did the last years. They want the possibilty to get anybody they don´t like extradited to China, where there is no independent judiciary. The end of the - albeit limited - freedom of Hongkong. That is why 2 million protested in the streets one month ago. Very possible that the US is fanning the flames. But the fire is very much of the PRC´s making.
Xi Jinping is under impossible pressure. The trade war is hurting the economy and numbers just out show the worst industrial performance for 17 years. On top China has been overinvesting since 2008 to a truly unbelievable extent. It is Japan at the end of the eighties redux but only much worse.
Xi Jinping has no choice but to stop it if he doesn´t want even more inflation. Either way he is risking a social explosion. Ever since Tiananmen the bargain with the Chinese population has been party rule in exchange for a consumer economy. The government won´t be able to keep its side of the bargain anymore. Therefore Xi Jinping needs to reign in Hongkong now. And he will have to send in the troops. Not because of some thousands of students but because the population of Hongkong supports them. Maybe not before the next party congress at the beginning of October but certainly afterwards. The result will be much worse than the number of 3% of Chinese GNP indicate. Precisely because Hongkong has an independent judiciary it is still the financial broker between China and the West and the fifth largest stock market in the world. ALl of that will end with a bang and the consequences will be felt around the world.




Posted by: Tom67 | Aug 14 2019 17:33 utc | 21

@Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 17:20 utc | 18

Btw, amongst the outrages experienced by us Europeans so far from the US/UK tandem, and which will never go through the memory hole, you can add, assault of foreign embassies and seizing of foreign comercial tankers on our soil and territorial waters, by US/UK operatives...

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 17:35 utc | 22

@Sasha

Your ignorance is glowing. In fact it might be glowing the dark. My enslaved and then disenfranchised ancestors helped build railroads, not the Chinese. That my friend is a strike of racism against you. And no, it wasn't product of me being an American, it was definitely a product of me being black skinned, given three Chinese restaraunts refused to seat my white friends and I unless I left. Also you claim China has never invaded anyone, lmao, tell that to the Vietnamese who kicked the PLA's asses to bad they had to turn their guns on anti-African demonstrators in Tianamen Square to redeem their worth to Han elite. Fuck China and their racist asses back to the 16th century where their backward ass Ming dynasty ideology belongs.

Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 17:40 utc | 23

Kirlof1 @ 12.. d/n forget the vast difference between the people of America and those that govern Americans!
Top down nation state imposed Governance is the hallmark of nation state sovereignty. The nation state leadership is always a problem for the governed because its leaders fear the demands for sovereignty of the cultures, the languages, the societies and the like that are contained by the boundaries of the nation state. Essentially there are two different sets of powers and rights to be allocated, but to date, one government has been responsible to maintain the balance of powers and rights between both classes of persons; the governors and the governed.

I have come to the belief that the nation state model of control is so strong, that it affords those in position to lead too much unchecked power; they can force their will on all who are the governed.

Understanding that freedom, right to self determination, and democracy are not products or nation state governance I have come to believe that two different governments are needed world over.

The nation state government I call the functional government, and the people's government I call the oversight government.. These two governments should be made to work in side by side fashion together.. but they have very different and opposed interest so they are virtually polarized against each other.. but their powers and authority do not conflict, in fact their powers and authority complement.. Here is how it works

There is no need in either government for a political leader or a people's representative.. Each government implements a different model of governance designed to interlace the concerns and needs of each.
The functional nation state government imposes its authority to conduct the affairs of government in much the traditional way. it has a military, it maintains a bureaucracy, its contracts with private third parties and it enforces the constitution and the laws that the oversight government allow the functional government to pass.

The oversight government, does not interfere with the functional government, instead it engages in oversight of the behaviors, honesty and integrity of the personnel that man and operate the functional government and the oversight government considers/allows/denies proposals for laws and changes to the constitution, the functional government proposes. (<=laws and decisions are prepared, proposed, and presented by the functional government to the governed, but such proposal cannot be implement as law or decisions unless and until the voters, in general elections, approve such laws) additionally the oversight government maintains a court system which is completely independent of the functional government (the oversight court is funded by 10% tax on the moneys the functional government collects . Any governed person can charge any person(s) or corporation in privity to the functional government including those in government jobs, contractors to government, the military or any of the Article III judge with any of one of three types of crimes (outlined below ) the voter's courts are empowered to hear those charges and to issue rulings and impose punishment. The two independent government system, operating in parallel, preserves the right of self determination to the governed, while it preserves the efficiency and power of the traditional nation state.

three types of crime would be actionable in the people's (voter's) courts; as follows:
1) failing to conform to the plain text meaning of the constitution of the nation state, or
2) failing to timely move toward completing any goal approved by the voters in the oversight government.
(basic negligence or incompetence), or
3) engaging in corruption
<=the people's (voter's court) Judge would deice any motion to dismiss a charge made by a governed person,
if the violations alleged make a case said judge would allow the case to proceed.
<= a jury would be convened to hear the case against the defendant bureaucrat, member of the military or
contractor to the functioning government or Article III judge, and upon conviction or unfavorable judgement
the functional government person found guilty or culpable iwould be removed from his or her job or position
or the contract cancelled such that the wrongful actions would be ordered corrected, and the culpable persons
would be punished by the People's court accordingly..

Around the globe the need is the same.. There are two interest to be considered the economic and security interest of the state, and the human interest of those who are governed by the nation state. Each interest needs a means to approve/disapprove the actions taken by the other and each interests needs a court system with jurisdiction to enforce its rights against the other.

Posted by: snake | Aug 14 2019 17:48 utc | 24

@Posted by: Tom67 | Aug 14 2019 17:33 utc | 19

You obviously multiply the protesters to the millions as you have been doing, with the inestimable help of your agents Solzhenitsyn and Conquest, with the Gulag numbers since decades ago.

The proof that China is not doing so bad as you try without success to paint here, is the overwhelming number of Chinese tourists we meet wherever we go, plus the current war on its IT market and others, oh yeah, must be because they are doing so bad....Look, illusory US operative, most people I know use Chinese mobile phones, if not for their quality/price relation, plus, no bugging from your intelligence complex...Unbatable, do not you think?
...
Most of the youngsters here, at least those who have chosen entrepeneurial sciences path, go to China for interchange already while sudying their last courses and do practices there, and learn Chinese, and this is a tendence not of right now, but from years ago, since everybody and their dogs understand it is there where the future is....

Everything you are accusing the Chinese in your post is in your country where it happens, thus, you are projecting all the way, which, along with shooting on working class people in the streets and malls, and harassing people of other races in and out of your damned country, is your national sport.

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 17:53 utc | 25

Actually, Empire Watcher @21, you need to do some reading in serious historical works. Indeed the Chinese *were* brought into the USA in the 19C specifically to provide the back-breaking labor for railroad building - and were *not* permitted to bring their families over because they were not "immigrants" as such but akin to the Mexican seasonal braceros in California in the 1940s. After 1882 no Chinese immigrants were permitted entry into the USA first for ten years which was extended in 1892 then again in 1924. Not until the mid 1940s were Chinese people permitted to emigrate to the US.

And they met with plenty of racism throughout.

Posted by: AnneR | Aug 14 2019 18:02 utc | 26

Meanwhile, Germany ("Europe's powerhouse") melts

Alongside it, there goes the "European Dream".

In this conjuncture, AfD is going to win Brandenburg, in another display of Western decay.

Russia's agriculture thrives on sales to China while U.S. farmers lose market share. The anti-Chinese part of Trump's MAGA has yet to achieve any success.

This information is confirmed by the Chinese government itself. Not only that, but this shift is likely to be permanent. Those rednecks better become vegetarian, because they'll have to sell a lot of excess soyben in the domestic market.

Posted by: vk | Aug 14 2019 18:05 utc | 27

Those rednecks better become vegetarian, because they'll have to sell a lot of excess soyben in the domestic market.

@Posted by: vk | Aug 14 2019 18:05 utc | 25

Where do you think the current campaign by Greta and even UN against meat consum originates from? In that the US must give way out to all that surplus...

We have started to see alfalfa for human consum, to put in your salad o¡in our chain malls...

https://twitter.com/VlC7ORR/status/1160502127237771265

Of course, we people somehow a bit informed do not swallow climate change comes now as a result of the few meat we eat ( once or twice a month, if any, in my case ), but because of the polution of the USAF in continuous movement to any point in the world, who polutes more than 140 countries together, plus maritim and air traffic which mantains capitalism and market economy....

https://twitter.com/lataninad/status/1160487715756019713

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 18:21 utc | 28

Empire Watcher must be a fan of the Fu Manchu novels.

Posted by: lysias | Aug 14 2019 18:36 utc | 29

I have never seen so many cameras at demos before these events. There appears to be one dedicated videographer for every five protesters.

Posted by: jayc | Aug 14 2019 18:37 utc | 30

Lots of Imperial Trolls here today at the bar. As proven by myself and others, the many pieces of legislation passed by the Outlaw US Empire's Congress that advocates and finances the meddling in the internal affairs of other nations is Unconstitutional and thus illegal under both domestic and International Law. That means what's ongoing in Hong Kong is a 100% illegal attempt to destabilize the city mostly at the expense of its citizens and US taxpayers regardless of what's uttered by Imperial politicos and their BigLie Media allies. As I commented on an earlier article on this topic, why don't we see the same sorts of incidents occurring in Macau if the grievances as claimed are universal? WE don't because they aren't--they're 100% contrived by a hostile power seeking to diminish China's rising power.

China of course is watching and implementing strategies to enhance its security and persevere its power. This Global Times article discusses the ways in which China can take advantage of the current crisis as within every crisis is the seed of opportunity:

"China has the confidence and capability to transfer the trade and financial war, which has been imposed by the US, into an opportunity to build a solid financial system and an independent monetary system, thereby safeguarding its monetary sovereignty and financial security. By doing so, China can prepare for long-lasting China-US competition."

Yes, As Hudson continually points-out, Trump's policies, and Obama's before him, have inbuilt blowback that serves to weaken US Imperial power while enhancing that of its opponents--Ouch! All of which I wrote about from a different POV yesterday.

As I've suggested before, following chinahand's Twitter as b does is a good way to stay abreast of events without having to filter through BigLie Media. As b notes, most roots of Hong Kong's problems were planted during British colonial rule. Much has been done since the handover to ease the most critical problem--housing. Another aspect of the issue taken advantage of by propagandists is the assumption by all too many that Hong Kong is just a city whereas it's a territory consisting of 18 districts and many islands and islets. I recently provided that same link to show that the governing organization was indeed democratically based with many progressive features, several of which were further remarked upon, thus belying the protestors's claim that this was all about wanting democracy.

Education is the best defense against trolls and their propaganda. The Imperial Trolls visiting the bar have no viable argument and the entire affair is 100% illegal, as is almost everything the Outlaw US Empire does beyond its shores.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 18:39 utc | 31

One may note that under the British Empire Hong Kong wasn't a democracy. My guess is that those Brits intentionally allowed it to get a semblance of democracy shortly before their 99 year lease ended just to spite China. British Empire has a history of "Divide and Rule" when forced to leave.
Just look at the mess of Pakistan and India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

Posted by: JR | Aug 14 2019 18:48 utc | 32

I suspect these Hong Kong protests are designed to swing the upcoming Taiwan elections in January 2020.

Taiwan elections will be January 2020 general election incumbent Tsai Ing-wen and opposition nationalist Han Kuo-yu. Han opposes a “one country, two systems” China policy while Tsai support continued autonomy of Taiwan.

“Han Kuo-yu is the only candidate who has a really strong appeal to the lower middle class,” said Joanna Lei, CEO of the Taiwan-based Chunghua 21st Century Think Tank. “Han, 62, has vowed to make peace with China. In March he signed deals with four Chinese cities including Hong Kong to sell $167 million worth of Taiwanese agricultural products.”

https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/how-china-will-dominate-taiwans-2020-presidential-election-campaign

“Tsai and her ruling Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) have recovered from a crushing defeat in last year’s regional elections by firmly rejecting Beijing’s “one country, two systems” formula for Taiwan, stridently supporting protesters opposing Hong Kong’s controversial extradition law, and securing close ties with the United States, culminating in a US$2.2 billion arms sale approved earlier this week.”

https://thediplomat.com/2019/07/taiwans-kmt-will-choose-its-candidate-to-challenge-a-resurgent-president-tsai/

Posted by: Krollchem | Aug 14 2019 18:50 utc | 33

What these protesters are doing is hard to understand. It sounds as much like an effort to discredit the protests as anything else. Could the Chinese government be using provocateurs?

Posted by: Edward | Aug 14 2019 18:53 utc | 34

Empire Watcher, the fact alone that you are incapable of noticing the fundamental racism in statements like "Chinese people are the most racist people I have ever met" disqualifies you for any meaningful exchange - and is quite hilarious, frankly.

"My enslaved and then disenfranchised ancestors helped build railroads, not the Chinese." Read up, then get back to us. Or rather don't.

Posted by: Protagonist | Aug 14 2019 19:01 utc | 35

Russian revolutions

We Jews are old hands at fighting Russian hegemony, and we must defend democracy in the US and in Russia, just as Russian Jews are poised to do in Israel

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/russian-revolutions/

Posted by: Omar | Aug 14 2019 19:02 utc | 36

An enlightening article by Dominico Losurdo about #Tiananmen. Information like this is still hidden, and it is no accident.

This is in Spanish, but, as indicated at the end, seems to have been translated by Red Voltaire....thus you may find it in English too...

Tiananmen 20 years later

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 19:08 utc | 37

snake @22--

Thanks for your well considered reply! What you propose is similar to my own ideas on how to improve government and prevent corruption from arising once it's defeated. The primary problem of course is there's no tabula rasa to build upon, and Empire and its corruption must first be defeated for any chance of a new governing constitution and related governmental structure to be erected--and IMO that applies for much of the world, not just the USA. Awhile ago, I suggested barflies make an attempt at writing a Revolutionary Manifesto detailing the ultimate aims of the project so people would understand what and why they're revolting over and for, and yours is the first attempt! Once a few more of these are produced beyond my own, they can be reintroduced on an Open Thread and the merits/faults discussed. So snake, thanks again very much! Hopefully your effort will spark others and we can have that discussion in September!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 19:10 utc | 38

@AnneR and @Protaganist

I have visited every habitable continent on the planet and did not experience as much racism against me for the color of my skin than in China. That is a fact of life I have lived and many other black skinned people who have traveled will tell you the same. In fact many prominent signs in Tianamen Square where those that said "No Hurt Chinese Women" in reference to claims that African students studying in China were raping Chinese women.

And I know Chinese people built railroads in the American West but they did not build railroads in the Deep South, specifically Arkansas, which is what @Sasha orginally claimed. Most of that labor was provided by disenfranchised blacks, white immigrants, and Hispanic peoples, NOT CHINESE. In fact when most of the railroads were built in the American East in the antebellum period, there was only around 100-200 Chinese people TOPS in the Eastern United States. Funny you claim I am historically ignorant but you all overlook the years of Chinese aggression against the people of Vietnam, Tibet, Korea, and Japan. In fact, despite those countries hating each other for years of historical injustice mutually inflicted upon one another, I found Vietnamese and Korean people to be some of the least racist people I have encountered in my travels. The hubristic Han and their sinophillic shills should learn hubris is the downfall of all!

Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 19:15 utc | 39

Overstock Tumbles 36% Since CEO Byrne’s ‘Deep State’ Statement

Overstock.com Inc. shares fell for a third day Wednesday as investors reacted to statements by Chief Executive Officer Patrick Byrne that he was a part of federal investigations related to the 2016 election.

The e-commerce company has lost a third of its value in the two days since releasing a statement by Byrne titled “Overstock.com CEO Comments on Deep State” and referring to federal investigators as “the Men in Black.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-14/overstock-tumbles-36-since-byrne-s-men-in-black-declarations

Overstock CEO Patrick Byrne: BILL BARR is About to Break Biggest Scandal in US History
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCKuwCRKP6c

Overstock.com CEO Comments on Deep State, Withholds Further Comment
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/overstock-com-ceo-comments-deep-230351233.html

Posted by: truth | Aug 14 2019 19:16 utc | 40

I'm a Hongkonger, so allow me to inject some perspectives here as a very concerned onlooker to what is happening. I'd admit my views are in the slim minority among fellow Hongkongers, and likely be laughed off as a conspiracy-theory monger or a Commie groupie.

The Extradition Law revision that started this was only a convenient proxy for those wanting chaos in HK to create chaos. The instigators behind the initial protest march are the same ones who started Occupy Central five years ago. They are the ones who huddle with operatives from US/UK Consulates, who travelled to the Washington/London/Brussel/Taipei, etc. to see politicians and plot strategies, to arrange for funding, and to recruit dare devils for the carnage. Lucky for them that HK was ripe for such shenanigans because HKers in general are sullen over their loss of superiority complex against mainland Chinese, brainwashed subconsciously through schools and churches about CCP wickedness, and desperately stressed under HK's economic realities. Most of the protesters don't even know what the Extradition Law is all about, but what the heck, it seemed like a good party to participate in, no?

The instigators, however, are well versed in all the intricacies. They know who they can easily recruit and order to do violence; they know the Basic Law and its fuzzy edges; they know the influences of clergy/university,high-school teachers; they know the fifth column within the government and business; they know HKers' irrational sensitivity towards so-called world opinions; they know that the foreign judges (which consist of 95% of the court) and foreign press are solidly behind them. Thus, they wanted to sock it to China; the more direly the better. If large casualties result what do they care? None of their own children were among the crowd and casualties would surely enlarge that blackeye they were to deliver. And they know their foreign backers are only too glad to see Chinese killing Chinese.

Like someone said in posts before mine, this incident is more similar to Maidan than any other color revolution prior. US/UK/Taiwan/Oz/Japan are enjoying their 5-minutes of glory and celebration at this point. The blowback, however, will come years and decades later.

By the way, the US Consulate in HK has over 1,000 on payroll (an estimated 200 CIA agents), UK's is over 500 (among them MI6 agents). That size of consulate in a city of less than 400 sq. miles of land (over half of which mountainous) is a laughable anormaly, wouldn't you think? What are they all there for?

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Aug 14 2019 19:22 utc | 41

Krollchem @31--

Your hypothesis has great merit! I suspect mainland holds a similar POV and has thus acted accordingly by allowing HK to solve the destabilization sowed by the Outlaw US Empire. The attempt by Taiwan to become completely independent will fail, and in the longrun it will be reabsorbed into China's polity just as the Koreas will eventually unite. In both matters, the Empire has no power to prevent them from occurring as it will soon be facing its own self-generated domestic problems that Trump's helping escalate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 19:22 utc | 42

"Xi Jingpin is waging a fierce campaign against corruption and Hong Kong is a target rich environment for fighting that crime."

Pooh Bear wants to make sure that he controls all of the corruption, as he does in China.

The Chinese fighting corruption is an oxymoron on a scale with authentic replica.

Posted by: Oraneg | Aug 14 2019 19:24 utc | 43

I appreciate the patient responses to the question of a simpleton. I may have more.

Ernesto Che @ 2:
"China's wish to have HK is political, i.e. a wish to not have any foreign powers, least of all Western, sitting on a tip of Chinese land."

--Why is there a seeming reflex assumption that any foreign power other than the (potentially) independent inhabitants of Hong Kong would be adjacent to China? (The Isle of Wight seems an excellent substitutionary example under the circumstances, but I still don't see why--if the inhabitants of the Isle desired independence from England for any reason at all--it would be worth fighting to keep them.)

Who Dat @ 4 & bevin @ 6:
"Well, Hong Kong was always a part of China." [&c.]

--Until they weren't. Your answer is all about the past and how things used to be--nostalgic? Yes. Relevant???--Don't we refer to those who long for the past that WAS instead of adapting to the current: "neurotic"? (Also, I'm not at all convinced that forcing the southern U.S. to remain was unquestionably "right".)

I guess the rub is that I don't accept the (seemingly common here) assumption that centralized federal governments are indubitably good things. The more territory swallowed up by a single centralized federal government means more people to be exploited (and much larger tax base to be skimmed) by the few at the top, leading to MORE pronounced income inequality: that's the worst kind of "government." All styles of government are abusive and hostile to inhabitants, and I can't rightfully advocate any of them, but the type of government that does the least harm is something akin to an historical city-state: small population bases offering the optimal local representation, with the ones at the top only able to rip off a relatively small amount of people, leading to LESS pronounced income inequality. That's just reality--humans are not just going to learn to become better people (we've had plenty of time for that to happen if it were going to). So when I see any separation or "independence" movement, I don't see that as a bad thing, just another adaptation. So why fight to keep the status quo?

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 14 2019 19:25 utc | 44

Here is a helpful video that provides some additional background regarding the situation in Hong Kong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=101&v=0jTJhxJX2Cs

Posted by: farm ecologist | Aug 14 2019 19:27 utc | 45

Thanks for the excellent journalism b

To those bashing China I would ask them one question:

Do you believe in public finance tools for all or the Western global private finance tools that only serve the elite?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 14 2019 19:31 utc | 46

On racism...

Come back from where you came! ": A couple suffers a racist attack on a beach in New York for speaking in Spanish (VIDEO)

The guy, a Spaniard legally working and living in NY, his girlfrien of Russian origins....

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 19:33 utc | 47

Yes, our new Imperial Troll Empire Watcher is woefully lacking in education regarding past and present world realities, and it's clearly trying to write in a non-native language. But it must be commended for getting others to engage it--yes, I'm also guilty--so it's been successful in its mission. We should now allow it to drift, cease giving it feedback and wish it adieu!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 19:37 utc | 48

@46

Karloff, Empire Watcher clarified his point in @37. He explained what experiences he has had behind his statement that the Chinese were "the most racist people I have ever met". And he also explained how primarily Chinese immigrants built railroads in some regions of the US while other groups built the railroads elsewhere. If he were just an "Imperial Troll" he would've not tried to explain his points and just run away.

You wanting to "cease giving it feedback" gives the impression that you are able to debunk his claims, and that you're the one that's now running away. And you also try to take his humanity away by referring to him as "it".

@9

Bevin, you mention the "ultra violent" way police in France have reacted to Yellow Jacket demonstrations. But I get the impression that if police in Hong Kong react just as violently against protesters there, everyone in this bar would cheer them on. Police from China or Syria or Russia, this bar seems to enthusiastically want them to carry out violent crackdowns that they would be condemning if US or Western European police carried them out.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 14 2019 19:55 utc | 49

@B

That was some serious smack:

Melissa Chan worked for Al Jazeerah, the propaganda arm of the emir of Qatar. She now works for DW, the propaganda arm of the German government. By her own criterion she is neither a journalist nor should she be called one.

Hope you were wearing some dark sunglasses when you wrote that line!

Teutonic Precision

Posted by: jared | Aug 14 2019 19:57 utc | 50

@Posted by: Oriental Voice | Aug 14 2019 19:22 utc | 39

Thanks for your input.

The Chinese government should at this point close the US/UK embassies/consulates, if they do not do it it will be for the ammount of people currently living, studying, travelling and whatever the hell doing in Western countries. But soon they will extend a recommendation, the Putin style, on nationals and funds to be repatriated. This is all out war, and better to be in national soil when all get uglier, that it will get...

By the way, the US Consulate in HK has over 1,000 on payroll (an estimated 200 CIA agents), UK's is over 500 (among them MI6 agents). That size of consulate in a city of less than 400 sq. miles of land (over half of which mountainous) is a laughable anormaly, wouldn't you think? What are they all there for?

They are probably there doing the laundry of funds obtained by the most dirty means...( see Afghan drug trafficking for funding CIA dark operations around the world...), as well as doing financial engineering to thrice, splash most of countries possible with shit definitely when the unpayable buble of US debt definitely hits the fan, for manipulating financial markets to sink a targeted country or for enirchment of its idle elites that live from moving money from side to side and speculating with the dollar ( I. e. hedge funds, that plague of capitalism...Epstein way of living comes to mind... )

The other day, a commenter at SST ( well, how not, while anything in defense of China was being deleted ), after labelling China as a harsh dictatorship, linked a video where a hedge fund CEO based in HK explained to us what was really happening in HK...Who are we going to believe, hard working HongKongers, like the elder shouting in despiar at the holgazan rioter at the subway as he sees HK sinking under these terrorists, or a Hedge Fund CEO who would mograte to another tax heaven as soon as things get disadvantegous for him?

Hmmm...Pat, clearly, underestimates us...

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 20:00 utc | 51

Tom67 @ 19 says:

Precisely because Hongkong has an independent judiciary it is still the financial broker between China and the West and the fifth largest stock market in the world

yeah, financial broker, middleman, pimp.

ALl of that will end with a bang and the consequences will be felt around the world

or a fizzle…

...and yeah, the jubilee will be global.

Posted by: john | Aug 14 2019 20:03 utc | 52

There are rumors that some Hong Kong oligarchs were originally behind the protests to prevent their extradition for shady deals they made in China.

Does a bear shit in the woods?

It's ALWAYS about the rich and powerful controlling the laws and discourse. Hong Kong mobsters want to keep running their racket (they cannot find their way to assimilate the Chinese government into their web).

Meanwhile Assange is inching closer to extradition to "the mainland" and is nowhere to be seen in the MSM.

Posted by: Seer | Aug 14 2019 20:03 utc | 53

Edward @32 asked: "Could the Chinese government be using provocateurs?"

Nope, this is a standard, textbook imperial "regime change" operation. It is a recipe that the empire has cooked up many times before already.

Furthermore, there is no need for the Chinese government to discredit the protesters as the protesters discredit themselves simply by continuing to protest a law that was withdrawn weeks ago. As b has clearly pointed out what little the protesters have in place of demands are childish nonsense.

The final proof that the government is not using provocateurs is the fact that the police have resisted being provoked despite the protesters exceeding behavior that would get them shot to death in the USA. Why would the Chinese government bother trying to provoke a response from the local authorities while urging the authorities to resist being provoked? That is just a waste of effort.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 14 2019 20:08 utc | 54

@ Posted by: Tom67 | Aug 14 2019 17:33 utc | 19

That sounds like a pretty fair assessment.

I think maybe there is no white night in this battle
- except the mettling by the U.S. does not seem (in retrospect) to serve the interests of the people, but rather some other interests

Posted by: jared | Aug 14 2019 20:09 utc | 55

"That's not the US government meddling in Hong Kong but NED, an non-governmental organisation funded by US Congress" won't wash in China. Under these circumstances there is little possibility China will do Trump a favor and buy US agricultural products.

Posted by: passerby | Aug 14 2019 20:11 utc | 56

Empire Watcher, you stated “My enslaved and then disenfranchised ancestors helped build railroads, not the Chinese“, in so writing explicitly claiming the Chinese did not contribute at all. A bit late to try face-saving, meandering excuses. Never understood the urge of people to display their ignorance on public forums.

It’s common knowledge that the Chinese have a bit of a cultural superiority complex, but I’m starting to believe that they didn’t serve you in their restaurants based on that, but because you simply are unbearable.

Posted by: Protagonist | Aug 14 2019 20:14 utc | 57

@31 ... yes that is interesting.

The protesters, at least at the airport based on the million videos out now, look like university kids. Therefore not threatening (yet). When poor/working people join, that is the dangerous scenario.

Soon, the protests are also going to become a pain for local powers, who might otherwise support them to keep the mainland influence out (does the colonial type autonomy benefit local leaders?). It would be interesting to get more perspectives on that aspect of it.

Posted by: Ptb | Aug 14 2019 20:16 utc | 58

Inkan1969 @47 sez: "If he were just an "Imperial Troll" he would've not tried to explain his points and just run away."

Wouldn't it be nice if imperial trolls did that? Just ran away when you called them out? But they don't run away because they have a job to do and shekels to earn.

In any case, the particular troll that you are defending clearly doesn't know anything about China. That is obvious to anyone who has actually lived there at some point in the last few decades.He's just regurgitating western boilerplate Sinophobic jingoism. I'm surprised he hasn't used the standard troll claim that he knows so much about China because he is married to a Chinese woman. Maybe he is holding that in reserve.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 14 2019 20:21 utc | 59

Anacharsis @42

The problem you are having understanding the issue is that you have been brainwashed into believing something that isn't true by corporate mass media.

The majority of the people of Hong Kong do not want to be cut loose from the mainland. They even less want to go back to being a vassal of western empire. This is a part that you simply have wrong. The people of Hong Kong want their status relative to the mainland to remain the same, but this is impossible so long as their status stagnates and the status of mainlanders keeps improving.

You will be able to recognize this as fact, even though you don't know anything else about the situation when, as b pointed out, the protests come to an end on September 2nd and the easily manipulated juveniles have to go back to school.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 14 2019 20:36 utc | 60

I'm surprised he hasn't used the standard troll claim that he knows so much about China because he is married to a Chinese woman.

@Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 14 2019 20:21 utc | 57

For Annie´s Lizards!
For the time I have been in the net fighting the Solzhenitsers and other Sovietophobes of various furs out there I found while reading and commenting on the US manufacteured Maidan nazi coup in Ukraine, I happened to find a lot married to Russian women....

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 20:38 utc | 61

@Posted by: Oriental Voice | Aug 14 2019 19:22 utc | 39

Well, it seems that they have started with this....

Beijing Refuses American Warships Entry To Hong Kong Ports

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 20:46 utc | 62

Sasha | Aug 14 2019 16:40 utc

"... a Han Empire coming, let it be, if not for a change. We have had enough of US/UK imperialism, we are fed up, at least here in Europe."

Well said!

Posted by: jonku | Aug 14 2019 20:47 utc | 63

Why do so many dismiss the fact that some of the Hong Kong protest is actually genuine? Sure parts of it have been co opted by the Anglo-Zionist empire forces such as NED and what have you but it doesn't mean their isn't actual genuine dissent to the political and takeover over of mainland China.

"Why Hong Kong’s angry and disillusioned youth are making their voices heard
As residential property prices continue to rise in what is already one of the most expensive cities in the world, Hong Kong’s youth find themselves priced out of ever owning their own homes and raging against more than the proposed extradition bill"
https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3019591/why-hong-kongs-angry-and-disillusioned-youth-are


There is also the fact that China is implementing a social credit system that many Hong Kongers realize is nothing more than more state repression and control.

"China’s social credit system shows its teeth, banning millions from taking flights, trains
Annual report shows the businesses and individuals added to trustworthiness blacklist as use of the government system accelerates
System aims to pressure citizens to avoid bad behaviour, although human rights advocates argue it does not take into account individual circumstances"
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2186606/chinas-social-credit-system-shows-its-teeth-banning-millions


Today China extradition law, tomorrow a social credit score – why Hong Kong must stand up for its freedoms
Don’t be surprised that Hongkongers aren’t in a hurry to reach an agreement with the mainland, where the rights of the detained are far less secure
Liberalisation of the Chinese state’s control on its citizens is a fantasy
https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/article/3002540/today-extradition-tomorrow-social-credit-score-why-hong-kong-cant


"A Taiwanese report on a three-year action plan for the construction of the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area caused an uproar when it suggested that Hong Kong will be running the social credit system.

However, on July 9,(about the time the protest began) the Hong Kong government pointed out that the system will only be put to use in Guangdong Province and will not be applied to Hong Kong."
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/07/article/uproar-over-control-of-social-credit-system/


Sesame Credit: China’s Creepy New Social Engineering Experiment
https://www.corbettreport.com/sesame-credit-chinas-creepy-new-social-engineering-experiment/

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 20:52 utc | 64

William Gruff @ 58:

Thanks for your response. I certainly understand the low endurance drive of the student commitment. I don't pay attention to MSM. I don't know where to find RELIABLE and VERIFIED information on what the majority of the people of Hong Kong want cos everyone's propagandeering. I have not made any specific claims regarding this point (what the people of Hong Kong want): if you have inferred something specific to this effect, it was not my intention to imply such. Respectfully, I CAN take your word on what the people of Hong Kong want, but it doesn't lessen its status as hearsay. (Of course, you MAY in fact be eminently knowledgeable with regard to the generalized people of Hong Kong, even up to this exact moment, but how am I to be assured that this is true: what you say?) Even if what you say does indeed turn out to be specifically and situationally factual (and I acknowledge that MAY be the case), my underlying questions @ 42 remain largely unanswered.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 14 2019 21:01 utc | 65

The Office of Consular Affairs of the US Department of State issues an alert for travelers visiting Hong Kong and offers a list of recommendations.

https://twitter.com/descifraguerra/status/1161676781952360448

The European Union calls for calm in Hong Kong.

https://twitter.com/descifraguerra/status/1161603228259233792

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 14 2019 21:09 utc | 66

@47 Thank you Inkan1969. There are far too many self-appointed troll police on MOA. If you disagree with somebody then argue in a civil manner or just ignore it. Let b handle it.

Posted by: dh | Aug 14 2019 21:09 utc | 67

Punishment for dishonesty, or some form thereof, is woven into the DNA of the social credit scheme, which seeks to rank citizens according to their trustworthiness, taking into account whether they have broken the law, spread rumors, or violated any financial contracts. While good scores entitle citizens to perks, bad scores can land them on a blacklist that bars them from accessing certain services, like booking flights or trains.

The suggestion that the scheme be implemented throughout the Greater Bay Area by 2020 probably could not have come at a worse time for Hong Kong, which has been rocked by weeks of massive protests that began in opposition to a controversial extradition bill that residents feared would entangle them in the mainland’s notoriously politicized courts. The movement has since morphed into one of general opposition to Beijing’s creeping influence and the erosion of Hong Kong’s special status.

It should come as no surprise, then, that Hong Kong netizens reacted with horror to any suggestion of importing a mainland-style social surveillance system to the SAR.

“What if we receive negative scores by joining a protest?” asked one netizen.

“Being a police = +1000000000000 points,” joked another, taking a potshot at the police force, which is deeply unpopular at the moment for its role in cracking down on the recent protests.
https://coconuts.co/hongkong/news/breaking-plan-suggests-bringing-mainland-social-credit-scores-to-hong-kong-govt-rushes-to-reassure/

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 21:15 utc | 68

@12 karlof1
You have stated repeatedly that you reside in, and enjoy your Oregonian life, yet somehow you don't believe paying your taxes etc makes you a defacto hypocritical supporter of US policies?
Or do you just enjoy throwing stones at the nation that guarantees you the freedoms to do so?

Posted by: Darkthirty | Aug 14 2019 21:16 utc | 69

@58, William Gruff:

You're right on in reading the tea leaves regarding HKers not wanting to disengaged from China and not wanting the Queen's minions back. Disengagement from China would mean economic disaster, and receiving back her majesty's minions would mean having to brown nose brats of inferior intellect again. But seeing mainlanders overtaking them in living standard sure is hard to accept. Besides, the murmurs in their ears administered by clergy and school teachers has insidious and cumulative effect over the past 2+ decades. They are mostly brainwashed by now to despise (or even hate) mainland Chinese in the subconscious. But Chinese in the rest of China don't really give a damn.

@49, sasha:

I was asking the question of what the hell are the western agents doing in HK rhetorically, tongue in cheek :). I know what they are doing. But their best effort can only give China fleeting blackeyes from time to time, PR-wise. Those won't change a thing politically, nor even economically in rest of China's territories. There isn't the need to close those hostile consulates. That would be juvenile antic for ephemeral highs only. I see that you are upset with these color revolutions. Thank you for your support.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Aug 14 2019 21:17 utc | 70

@ Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 20:52 utc | 62

We know this isn't a legitimate revolt because virtually 100% of the protesters/rioters clearly do not look like working class. They are very young (at the apex of their strength and beauty, so I would guess between 18-25 years old) and very good looking (good skin, good teeth, no signs of sun tan, good clothes), therefore they are probably upper middle class, and they are almost certainly all students (because they have the time and resources to protest every day, any time of the day).

Those massive working class general strikes WSWS stated would come this week didn't come. You can attest that by the fact that the rioters had to picket an airport to paralyze production.

Even if those general strikes did happen, then you have to face the fact that, from the point of view of a normal civilian, Hong Kong and Mainland China are essentially two different countries. China literally is one country with two systems: a person who was born and raised in HK but never went to the Mainland doesn't have any idea who life is in the Mainland. Any societal grievances the Hongkonger has with society is against the Hongkonger capitalist elite, not against Chinese socialism. The reverse is also true.

Posted by: vk | Aug 14 2019 21:18 utc | 71

"We know this isn't a legitimate revolt because virtually 100% of the protesters/rioters clearly do not look like working class. They are very young (at the apex of their strength and beauty, so I would guess between 18-25 years old) and very good looking (good skin, good teeth, no signs of sun tan, good clothes), therefore they are probably upper middle class, and they are almost certainly all students (because they have the time and resources to protest every day, any time of the day)."
Posted by: vk | Aug 14 2019 21:18 utc | 69

So by this logic, student protest are never legitimate. You do realize how foolish this is right or are you being sarcastic?

"Any societal grievances the Hongkonger has with society is against the Hongkonger capitalist elite, not against Chinese socialism. " And you base this assumption on what exactly, your preferred ideology?

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 21:26 utc | 72

@Protaganist This was the original quote I was replying to: "Any way, any stories on how do you treated the first Chinese migrants in Arkansas when they arrived there to build your railways? Seeing how you treat today to US born citizens like AOC, and other legal migrants in the US, dunno, but I fear the worst...." As I said, no Chinese were involved in the construction of railroads in the South. You are the one giving post-hoc explanations for my responses. You do not know me nor know the type of person I am. You can say that they were denying service to me because I was rude, but I only got rude after I had been the only person asked to leave the restaraunt. The only person with dark skin in the whole damn building. You live with that kind of attitude and see how you act.

As for poster @William Gruff, I am not married to a Chinese woman. As I said before, Chinese people are some of the most racist people on the planet and I don't vibe with racist families that would never accept my children's humanity or mine. Fuck that noise. And y'all can call me a troll all you want but I am no fan of empires given my people's history with them. Whether it is an Anglo Empire or Han Empire, they are all bad and we shouldn't be sucking the teets of Han supremacists just because America is evil. We should be cheering on those who do everything they can to resist the centralizing forces of globalization, something the Chinese want to accelerate to their benefit at the expense of the enviroment and other developing markets.

Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 21:28 utc | 73

Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 16:12 utc | 8
A troll if I ever saw one !

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Aug 14 2019 21:37 utc | 74

"Whether it is an Anglo Empire or Han Empire, they are all bad and we shouldn't be sucking the teets of Han supremacists just because America is evil. We should be cheering on those who do everything they can to resist the centralizing forces of globalization, something the Chinese want to accelerate to their benefit at the expense of the environment and other developing markets."
Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 21:28 utc | 71

Well said.

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 21:38 utc | 75

Posted by: bevin | Aug 14 2019 16:18 utc | 9

You dont meddle in other countries internal affairs!

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Aug 14 2019 21:40 utc | 76

Inkan1969 @47--

Our troll upon being challenged began using inverse ex post facto mea culpas in an attempt to regain legitimacy. It claims to be an African-American from Arkansas but knows nothing about racist US Immigration law that's taught nationwide and is in all US History textbooks. You've been a barfly long enough to have seen/read many different types of trolls, and the same goes for reading enough of what I've written over the years as to my disposition regarding trolls. To repeat, my policy is once I've satisfied myself as to the genuine status of the commenter as a troll is to ignore and not feed it, which means I'm through with it unless it does something egregious that requires a reply. And even then I often miss vitriolic, ad hominin attacks because I choose to skip the troll's comment altogether as was witnessed here very recently. Currently, about a dozen rather sophisticated trolls inhabit MoA; several are active on this thread. Clearly, my policy isn't for everyone. But trolls do serve a purpose from my perspective: They're an indicator of the Outlaw US Empire's desperation, just as when a smear campaign is used to try and impugn the credibility of a truth-teller, as we've seen with Gabbard and now Sanders.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 21:43 utc | 77

i have noticed that the China bashers won't answer my question so I am going to repeat it

To those bashing China I would ask them one question:

Do you believe in public finance tools for all or the Western global private finance tools that only serve the elite?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 14 2019 21:45 utc | 78

@71 I don't know exactly what happened to you in that restaurant but I am prepared to believe you had bad experiences in China. I'm white and speak some Mandarin and I often heard myself called a 'yang guize'. Didn't bother me too much. I understand that many ordinary people in China are not very sophisticated. They are the samne people that go to Hong Kong and have trouble forming an orderly queue.

Posted by: dh | Aug 14 2019 21:45 utc | 79

Ah to be accused by a newly minted troll who can't even write the accusation correctly! Go back to school!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 21:46 utc | 80

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 21:46 utc | 78
Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 14 2019 21:45 utc | 76

You guys are such thinkpol flying monkeys always calling someone a troll who doesn't agree with you pathetic.

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 21:50 utc | 81

"Bevin, you mention the "ultra violent" way police in France have reacted to Yellow Jacket demonstrations. But I get the impression that if police in Hong Kong react just as violently against protesters there, everyone in this bar would cheer them on."Inkan1969
You may very well be right. I would not be among them. That having been said there are significant differences between the clearly leaderless, classically spontaneous protests in France-protests against a radical dismantling of a welfare sensitive state built up over generations- and the equally clearly CIA organised attacks on Chinese society posing as a movement to bring back the democracy of Crown Colony governance-in which any such demonstrations would have been brutally suppressed.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 14 2019 21:57 utc | 82

You can find Useful Idiots everywhere. The ZOG empire is good at that, as its main export article is : Death and destruction.
I dont thing the ZOG has got a chance here,Chinese police should just flame these protesters in HK as they surely are "Culour Revolution " outfits, get the leaders, bullet in the back the head, end of story.
I am confident that Chinese Secret police have knowledge of who the instigators were.
This is meddling in another country!
The US is a shit-hole, third world country, that needs to be taught a lesson, and get some people home in body bags, first then will they learn.
It tries to impress wars on the whole middle East too. Let them!
" Rather die standing or live crawling"

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Aug 14 2019 22:01 utc | 83

@ Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 21:26 utc | 70

The structural societal problems that are listed in Hong Kong are: price of the land and rising inequality. Both affect, disproportionally, the poor working classes. If these were the underlying causes of the protests, we would've been seeing a series of general strikes (since the true power of the working class is paralyzing production). Since the Hongkonger working classes are not protesting -- let alone striking -- and since we can observe that the reivindications of the protesters are mainly liberal abstract ideals ("democracy") and independence, we can infer we're witnessing a classic case of color revolution, as codified by Gene Sharp in his book "From dictatorship to democracy" and the TC-18-01, which codifies unconventional warfare (UW) for the USA Armed Forces.

Speaking about UW, we had an incident today where two American war vessels were denied entrance in HK's port. This was probably a last and desperate attempt by the USA of viabilizing something that at least resembled UW -- I'm talking here about a more advanced level of LOC (Lines of Communication -- which is already done at a lower level between the leaders of the rioters and the American embassy), but, more importantly, a C2 (Command and Control) with SF (Special Forces), which are essential elements for the projection of LOC to the logistics level. If those two American war vessels were able to connect with the rioters, guerilla warfare would begin.

--

On a lifestyle level, Hong Kong is still de facto a separate country from the Mainland. You just need to talk with people who lived in both places (even if in a tier 1 city in the Mainland). A Hongkonger who never travelled to the Mainland has no idea about the societal aspects of the Mainland; a Mainlander who never travelled to Hong Kong has no idea about the societal aspects of Hong Kong.

That's why those Hong Kong protests won't spread to the Mainland: different systems, different contradictions.

Posted by: vk | Aug 14 2019 22:13 utc | 84

Meanwhile, the topic at hand is the illegally contrived violence arising from was at first legitimate protests, very similar to virtually every CIA attempted Color Revolution. A Global Times article put forth the importance of Hong Kong as a financial center with that business being at the forefront of its fiscal wellbeing and how the protests had the capability to undermine that importance and thus the wellbeing of the vast majority of HK citizens. I thought that a rather important point for a Mainland publication to make since the policy goal is to maintain the one nation/two systems policy, which for HK is to last until 2047 and 2049 for Macau. Thus the importance of psychohistorian's question regarding the private financial system of HK being threatened by the CIA while being defended by the owners of China's publicly owned financial system. Quite the topsy-turvy world where you'd expect the opposite to be happening.

As the chart provided by b at the top shows, HK's importance has vastly diminished since handover, having been eclipsed by Shanghai as China's premier financial hub. Why then does the Outlaw US Empire wish to sink it further? China believes it's to add additional fiscal burden to provide for its maintenance by cancelling HK's special trade status as there's not much more the Outlaw US Empire can do to pressure China economically. If TrumpCo plays that card, it will have few options remaining.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 14 2019 22:27 utc | 85

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 20:52 utc |

China’s social credit system shows its teeth, banning millions from taking flights, trains...

Hmm...sounds a lot like the no-fly lists in the "free" USA.

Posted by: joeymac | Aug 14 2019 22:28 utc | 86

Just noting the very weird conversations here about a Han Empire conspiracy. Please note that simply because you speak Cantonese rather than Mandarin doesn't mean you are not of Han ancestry. 92% of Hong Kong residents are in deed Han. 150 years of colonisation by the British have certinaly created a different cultural identity to the mainland in HK, and created a mirage like entity which in the past fed off a poor mainland society- HK still is a major financial global player by any measurement, but that role is rapidly being eclipsed by Shanghai and even more so now because of the disastrous impacts on the HK economy by these demonstrations...Undoubtedly British intelligence maintained a strong presence in HK after the handover to mainland China and those contacts have been well resourced and supported in recent times by the National Endowment for Democracy and other Pentagon tools in a rather desperate attempt it would seem to ensure the long-term survival of Taiwan as a floating aircraft carrier for the U.S.

Posted by: Paul | Aug 14 2019 22:41 utc | 87

"The structural societal problems that are listed in Hong Kong are: price of the land and rising inequality"
Posted by: vk | Aug 14 2019 22:13 utc | 82

I'll post this again just for you.
"Why Hong Kong’s angry and disillusioned youth are making their voices heard
As residential property prices continue to rise in what is already one of the most expensive cities in the world, Hong Kong’s youth find themselves priced out of ever owning their own homes and raging against more than the proposed extradition bill"
https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3019591/why-hong-kongs-angry-and-disillusioned-youth-are

"Since the Hongkonger working classes are not protesting -- let alone striking --"
Posted by: vk | Aug 14 2019 22:13 utc | 82

That is just another assumption you are making.
"The night quiet Hong Kong working-class neighbourhood Wong Tai Sin became a smoking battleground
Residents of Wong Tai Sin joined protesters to vent their anger at police late on Saturday after tear gas was fired in densely packed area to disperse crowds
But police say they were duty bound to go after radical demonstrators who ‘changed their clothes and stirred up trouble’ in the temple district"
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3021387/night-quiet-working-class-neighbourhood-hong-kong-became


As I stated before: just because elements of the protest have been co opted by the Anglo-Zionist empire does not mean the entire protest movement is illegitimate. COINTELPRO against the Black Pathers in the US is a classic example.


"On a lifestyle level, Hong Kong is still de facto a separate country from the Mainland."
"A Hongkonger who never travelled to the Mainland has no idea about the societal aspects of the Mainland; a Mainlander who never travelled to Hong Kong has no idea about the societal aspects of Hong Kong".
posted by: vk | Aug 14 2019 22:13 utc | 82

Therefore would it not stand to reason that a portion of the Hong Kong population would want to resist the ever imposing mainlanders way of life in particular their surveillance state?

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 22:55 utc | 88

I'm sorry it's all very simple. From Occupy to Gillets Jaune to Hong Kong: the state runs protest operations, always at at the worst possible time, and generally lacking in broad public support, so as to defuse the possibility of genuinely spontaneous and popular uprisings.

By the time everything is over 80% of the population experiencing the op, via media, will be 'against' protest.

Shortly after the protests have ended, or are more or less irrelevant, you can burn down Notre Dame and no one will say boo.

Posted by: C I eh? | Aug 14 2019 23:10 utc | 89

@ O who accused me of calling them a troll

I don't like folks that say I write things that I don't and think it says more about them than it does about me when they do...they call it projection I believe

Let me repeat my question that you (self identified) and whomever else haven't answered

To those bashing China I would ask them one question:

Do you believe in public finance tools for all or the Western global private finance tools that only serve the elite?


Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 14 2019 23:13 utc | 90

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 14 2019 23:13 utc | 88
You are effing lame and your obvious question is lame. You don't think there is a portion of financial elite being served in China as well? Your simplistic framing of events demonstrates your simplistic mind.

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 23:22 utc | 91

A comment I tried to make here disappeared into the ether so here's what I have been able to salvage of it:

"... There are rumors that some Hong Kong oligarchs were originally behind the protests to prevent their extradition for shady deals they made in China. There may be some truth to that. China's president Xi Jingpin is waging a fierce campaign against corruption and Hong Kong is a target rich environment for fighting that crime ..."

I'm sure Mainland Chinese authorities are interested in finding out where Perenna Kei, one of HK's youngest billionaires, earns all her wealth from. Kei is a Hong Kong resident and a citizen of Saint Kitts and Nevis, an island country in the Caribbean. Her father is CEO and chairman of a real estate company based in Shenzhen.

Significantly Hong Kong residents who own offshore companies and earn foreign dividends are not required to declare their foreign income to HK taxation authorities. Chinese citizens living in China on the other hand are required to declare their foreign income to Chinese taxation authorities and their dividend income is taxed.

I should think if HK taxation law were to conform with Mainland Chinese taxation law with regard to declaring foreign income such as dividends from foreign companies, there'd probably be a lot less money sloshing through the HK financial industry and fewer Mainland Chinese billionaires would be playing the HK property market like a giant casino.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 14 2019 23:27 utc | 92

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 14 2019 23:13 utc | 88
Go educate your lame ass.
"We have the Chinese version of Red Capitalism which represents both the command-and-control top-down political authoritarianism and the bankster controlled economic Crony Capitalism that is the model for the New World Order.

But do we have any evidence for this thesis. This of course is the meat and potatoes of what we are talking about today because for anyone who has not done any research into Antony Sutton’s work or read any of his books, I would like to assure you that these interview clips that we’ve been looking at, its hitherto or that you may have seen or heard online before, are really just the summation of the years and years of extensive study that Sutton did into the State Department archives and the personal correspondence of various people involved, the poring over of receipts and economic data from various corporations."
https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-297-china-and-the-new-world-order/

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 23:27 utc | 93

"China's president Xi Jingpin is waging a fierce campaign against corruption... "
Posted by: Jen | Aug 14 2019 23:27 utc | 90

He is not. He wants what he thinks he is his, since he is supposed to el jefe de jefes of Eastasia superstate. Some douchebag who sets himself up to be president for life is obviously not about that 'fair and honest life'.

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 23:36 utc | 94

Given the historical record on the empire's involvement in the affairs of other nations, it would be an anomaly if it wasn't involved in HK.

Leopards don't change their spots.

Posted by: ben | Aug 14 2019 23:39 utc | 95

Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 14 2019 16:50 utc | 16
Totally with you on this: The authority with which b and his followers state bullshit as fact is astonishing. Anybody who has lived in Chinese culture knows that they are totally arrogant, racist as the Japanese and have no courtesy or manners within their culture. People raised and living in the west but of Chinese parents are not the same: culture is the difference, not the skin. The worst are those rich mainlanders with an inferiority complex: Complete morons. In case you are wondering, almost all my colleagues are mainlanders or Indians, the mainlanders around me are happy to fart loudly all day in the office, eating with the same sounds as a pig trough: and these are the elite who moved into banking!

Posted by: aspnaz | Aug 14 2019 23:48 utc | 96

Empire Watcher @71 [posts some nonsense]

O @73 sez: "Well said."

[O and Empire Watcher fist bump over the cubicle partition]

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 14 2019 23:49 utc | 97

[O and Empire Watcher fist bump over the cubicle partition]

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 14 2019 23:49 utc | 95

What a sorry sack you are if that is all you got with this uninspired bs of a comment.

Posted by: O | Aug 14 2019 23:53 utc | 98

"China's president Xi Jingpin is waging a fierce campaign against corruption... "

Yep, that is the heart of the issue and the real reason behind the opposition to the extradition law. Since Britain no longer had the might to retain Hong Kong as a colony, they set up Hong Kong to be the gateway for western corruption to poison China, including the last minute installation of a phony bologna "democracy". What we are seeing is an attempt by a bunch of foreign sponsored spoiled rich kids maintain and increase the privileged positions they were born into.

Posted by: artherdent | Aug 14 2019 23:55 utc | 99

危機

"Crisis" in Chinese = "Danger" + "Opportunity"*


Xi should use this opportunity to shut down the US consulate in HK.
He can expect a tit-for-tat, maybe losing the NY consulate or equivalent. With Trump flipping between deals and tariffs, I think China can afford a diplomatic battle of attrition.

(*"juncture" is more correct but equally applicable)

Posted by: ziogolem | Aug 15 2019 0:06 utc | 100

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