Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 25, 2019

The MoA Week In Review - OT 2019-50

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

The black block in Hong Kong, which consists of just a few hundred youth, is now back at rioting. Subway stations get vandalized and people pushed off the trains that the rioters use to ferry from one flash mob incident to the next one. Bricks and Molotov cocktails are thrown at police lines. Some protesters use baseball bats against the police, others have handguns. Today the police, for the first time, deployed water cannon trucks. One policeman fired a warning shot against the increasingly brutal mob. It is only of question of time until the first person gets killed.

The allegedly "leaderless" protesters even have a Dummy Guide for frontline rioters.

Miles Kwok aka Guo Wengui is a disgruntled Chinese oligarch. He is one of the men who finances the Hong Kong protests. Here he appears with Steve Bannon Miles Kwok & Mr Bannon: The 5 principles on Hong Kong’s matter (vid). But the NYT still claims that the nativist protesters' use of Pepe the frog is not a sign of alt-right influence.

Joshua Wong, one of the U.S. coddled students, compares the situation with 2014 Maidan riots in Ukraine. He is right in more ways than he says.

Khan Shaykhun and all surrounding villages are now liberated. There was little resistance left as most of the Jihadis had slipped out of the encirclement before it closed. The Syrian army is now concentrating forces to go further north towards Maarat al-Numan. The preparing bombing campaign is ongoing.

Last night Israel bombed a Hezbullah workshop south of Damascus. Three Hizbullah engineers were killed and two were wounded. Additionally an Israeli short-range drone landed on Hizbullah's media office in Beirut, Lebanon. A second drone, probably sent to destroy the first one, appeared and exploded. No one was hurt. The drone operators must have been relatively nearby, most likely on some boat off Beirut.

Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah addressed Israel in his July 12 speech: "You kill one of our own in Syria and we will respond and respond from Lebanon." Nasrallah, who tends to hold his promises, is due to speak today at 17:00 local time. Expect some fireworks ...

Maj. Danny Sjursen: We're Listening to the Wrong Voices on Syria - TruthDig

Elijah Magnier reports that Israel is most likely behind this: Who is Behind Blowing up Ammunition Warehouses in Iraq? Iran is the Target. I still have my doubts about that.

The text of Mark Carney's Jackson Hole speech: The Growing Challenges for Monetary Policy in the current International Monetary and Financial System

Other issues:


Whitney Webb published another of her amazing pieces about the Epstein case: From “Spook Air” to the “Lolita Express”: The Genesis and Evolution of the Jeffrey Epstein-Bill Clinton Relationship - Mintpress News

Prof. Micheal Brenner looks into the lack of #MeToo outrage about the Epstein case: The Missing Howls of Denunciation Over Major Sex Trafficking - Consortiumnews - My take: It's an obvious class issues. The #MeToo establishment does not care about working class kids and women.

A Dead Cat, A Lawyer's Call And A 5-Figure Donation: How Media Fell Short On Epstein - NPR


The UAE supported southern separatists in South Yemen are not welcome outside of Aden. Some southern tribes mobilized against them as well as against the Saudis and the Houthi. The war to start all wars: Inside Yemen’s troubled south - Independent


There are no Afghan peace negotiations. There are peace negotiations between the U.S. and the (U.S. created) Taliban who will continue to fight against the (U.S. installed) government even while the U.S. wants the Taliban to fight the (U.S. installed) ISIS in Afghanistan. Robert Fisk: A century after the Anglo-Afghan peace treaty, the Fourth Afghan War is about to escalate - Independent


The real G7, measured by nominal GDP, are: 1. USA, 2. China, 3 Japan, 4. Germany, 5. UK, 6. France, 7.India.  When measured by GDP in Purchase Power Parity the list is different: 1. China, 2. USA, 3. India, 4. Japan, 5. Germany, 6. Russia, 7. Indonesia. At the G7 meeting in France today are the USA (2nd), Japan (4th), Germany (5th), UK (9th), France (10th), Italy (12th) and Canada (17th).  Iran's Foreign Minister Javad Zarif just arrived in Biarritz where the G-7 is holding their meeting. He will probably talk with Trump.


Who is providing your news? 15 Former Spooks Who Work At CNN And MSNBC Now -Daily Caller


Led Zeppelin cover by a Balalaika group: Stairway To Heaven (vid)

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on August 25, 2019 at 13:51 UTC | Permalink

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@ karlof1 | Aug 27 2019 21:09 utc | 196

In your recent visit to your state fair you likely saw all manner of farm equipment on display. Had you inquired the price of that equipment you would have been floored at the expense. Had you inquired just what equipment was needed to produce, say wheat, or soy beans and arrived at a total for all that equipment you would be looking at a good fraction of a million dollars if not more. Consider now, a farmer would need have or rent from those who have invested in the equipment that total to produce either a bushel of wheat or soy beans which might bring in a fiver or so (I have not followed those market prices for decades now). One needs to farm several thousand acres to start getting a return on investment and many years that would be a fortuitous chance given vagaries of weather and markets. How is your skill at gambling.

The above does not include the investment in land if a farmer is so lucky to posses land, or the rent needed to borrow the use of land from those having invested in that land. The economists are dead in error to consider rent as a form of rentier extraction. I suppose you might start realising the enormity of the agricultural business from this. This may as well give an indication of the knowledge and skills needed to do dirt work; a farmer has at least 3 PhD qualifications just to contend in the business. [/lecture]

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 27 2019 21:46 utc | 201

Bevin #200. 21:35 UTC

Regarding land ownership. there is an interesting concept that was and is still in use in some places
in Sub Saharian West Africa.

After initiation, the newly welcomed adult is granted a patch of land to cultivate. It is not his but the tribe.
When he marries, his plot is extended or he receives an additional plot to cultivate. If the tribe is a polygamous one,
he will get the usufruct of more land so that he can sustain his family.

His children will be initiated and eventually given their own patches and the girls after initiation will get
married and co receive a plot.

Not a bad system in an agrarian society.

Posted by: CarlD | Aug 27 2019 21:57 utc | 202

Addendum @  #203

In addition to weather and markets, the farmer is faced with monopoly power when they but and monopsony power when they sell. Being a farmer is certifiable evidence of being insane to even think of getting into but most are very good at what they do and you would be surprised how many people one farmer can feed.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 27 2019 22:01 utc | 203

@ karlof1 198
Zarif... strategic partnership between Iran and China and make a positive contribution to the Belt and Road Initiative

I suppose that a major part of the Iran 'roadmap' is an offer to China to take over an interest in Chabahar port previously allotted to India which has recently halted Iran oil imports as a sign of obedience to the US. Located on Iran’s South-eastern coast (outside the Persian Gulf), the Chabahar port is of great strategic importance for the development of regional maritime transit traffic to and from Afghanistan and Central Asia. Iran has recently discussed a link between Chabahar and Pakistan’s nearby Gwadar port, not far away, which is a current China project as a part of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC).

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 27 2019 22:21 utc | 204

bevin @197--

Formerly T-Bear isn't advocating unregulated markets. Rather, he's toying with my paraphrasing Hudson, who I should have directly quoted. My reply to Formerly T-Bear was to say that for all the Hudson I've read, he seldom advocates for specific regulations and almost always discuses the matter in reference to what was done in the past--what and who to regulate and why--versus what the forces of Reaction have done to reverse them. Through his discussions, it's fairly easy to discern what he'd advocate and why; and there're occasions when he's very specific, as with capital controls and heavily taxing of all forms rent.

I went to see if Hudson had ever published an economic plan, but all I found were critiques of economic plans. I will continue to look.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 27 2019 22:33 utc | 205

@ Formerly T-Bear 203

a farmer has at least 3 PhD qualifications just to contend in the business

No need for a tongue-in-cheek, you're on track, if manufacturing food is akin to other manufacturing.
. . .from last year

August 2018, The fall of employment in the manufacturing sector
Today’s manufacturing output is at least 5 percent greater than it was in 2000, but it has become much more capital intensive and much less labor intensive. Accordingly, workers in the sector are more likely to have at least some college education than their counterparts of years past. But there are far fewer manufacturing workers overall, with about 7.5 million jobs lost since 1980.
What is most responsible for the manufacturing job losses? Rising trade with China is often cited as a possible culprit. But competition from China only accounts for about a fourth of the decline in manufacturing during the 2000s. This theory is further eroded by the fact that local markets that did not compete with Chinese imports also saw employment declines.
A skills mismatch—the gap between the skills workers have and the skills employers need—has also contributed to the decline of manufacturing employment.
Prime age men and women with less than a high school degree have been hit particularly hard by changes to manufacturing employment. As the manufacturing sector has shifted from low-skilled to high-skilled work, workers who possess higher skill levels (e.g., engineers, computer programmers, software developers, etc.) have become more sought after than before. . .here

And the US supply of STEM graduates for any technical profession seems to be wanting. Meanwhile we must recognize that employment is not directly tied to the economy, given mechanization.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 27 2019 22:36 utc | 206

C1ue @ 172:

I should think that the landholding situation for Ukrainian peasants living and working in the areas under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1648, the year of Bogdan Khmelnitski's Cossack uprising against the Polish overlords, was rather more complicated than Friar Ockham and Bevin suggest.

True, the Ukrainian peasants had always worked the lands and (in their own eyes) those lands belonged to them, but legally (as in, from the point of view of the ruling classes of that dual kingdom) the lands belonged to the Polish or the Polonised Lithuanian nobility and the peasants were tied to the lands, meaning they were not allowed by the Polish landowners to move freely and had to follow Polish landowners' orders as to what to grow, how much to grow at the expense of growing food for themselves, and how much they had to pay in rent. Many if not most nobles did not live on their estates and rented them out to lease holders who also collected rent from the peasants on the nobles' behalf. As many lease holders / rent farmers were Jewish, Jewish communities in Galicia, Volhynia and other areas now part of western Ukraine became the focus of Ukrainian peasant hatred.

There is more much information at this link about the complicated relationships of the Polish nobility, the Ukrainian peasantry, and the intermediaries who managed the estates of absentee noble landlords and often treated the peasant tenants badly. These relationships are the ultimate source of the resentments that Ukrainian people have held against Polish and Jewish people and which fed into their collaboration with Nazi Germany during WWII and the atrocities they were encouraged by the Germans to carry out.

Strange how past history comes to haunt future events!

Posted by: Jen | Aug 27 2019 22:38 utc | 207

@ Posted by: karlof1 # 193

Let me rephrase my point. What good does it do us or Sanders for him to denounce BigLie Media while continuing to give credence/credibility to the #1 BigLie its made continually over the past THREE years?! That's like calling out the Fox for guarding the Henhouse while slipping it the key to the door and the alarm code!"

Didn't the last democratic prez promise to hold the banks responsible for the financial meltdown then, only to renege once elected? You can't trust either major party, they're what got us where we are. It's not the small donations that are pushing their various, private agendas, only the publicly stated ones.

No mainstream politician is to be believed, because it took too much money to get them elected and their favors afterwards are long and exaggerated, but the payoff is always a grand gesture and let the taxpayers beware.

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Aug 27 2019 22:46 utc | 208

@ karlof1 | Aug 27 2019 22:33 utc | 207

Thanks for reply. Dr Hudson is doing a brilliant job at economic critique which is missing in academia (but not in 'thunk tanks' which provide critique to order). Creating a sound critique is preliminary to constructing viable change, re Franklin Roosevelt's "Brain Trust" charting the development of the New Deal. The problem becomes using the same vocabulary as the neoliberal orthodoxy. As in any real profession, a rigorously developed vocabulary is necessary. That does not exist now in economics; it once did but economic vocabulary has become Babel-like and ambiguous meanings prevail and communication is lost. Plus getting up listener's noses.

My day is done - later

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 27 2019 22:55 utc | 209

@ Don Bacon | Aug 27 2019 22:36 utc | 208

There is no here there.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 27 2019 23:00 utc | 210

C1ue @ 169:

For money to work as it should, it should be in a continuous process of being created and being destroyed by the people using it. Being hoarded as a store of value goes against this function of money.

If money is hoarded, over time it loses value. $1,000 today won't have the same value in ten years' time that it has now because of inflation. This is why if you store money rather than spend it, you want a reward for storing it and that reward is interest. But that means someone else will have to go into debt in an economy where the supply of money is either fixed or restricted.

Banks, as repositories for storing money, can gain considerable power as creditors to debtors even though at the same time they owe money to other creditors (people with savings accounts) because they rely on those creditors not wanting to use money straight away but instead wanting interest as their reward for hoarding money.

For money to work, it should be subject to a limit on how long it can be taken out of circulation through storage. A battery with limited storage or an expiry date for that storage would work well. People or banks hoarding batteries would be forced to put the electric currency back into work. (There would also have to be an upper limit on how many batteries or how much electricity they can hoard so that as old batteries come close to expiring, their electricity is not transferred into new batteries.)

This would be how electricity could work as a currency.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 27 2019 23:09 utc | 211

Formerly T-Bear @203--

Sadly, the days when big threshers and harvester combines were at the Oregon State Fair have passed and the only equipment present were small tractors and such. Funny your lecture, I grew up on the farm--my dad was an Agronomist at UC-Davis and contributed to the so-called Green Revolution--and I drove tractors as soon as I could manipulate the clutch pedal. My first "paying" job was doing stoop labor harvesting lettuces next to Braceros in the Yolo Bypass fields--50 cents for every case of 24 heads of iceberg was the wage. Came close to buying a farm South of Grand Junction, Colorado nearby Delta--a small 320 acre mesa with good water rights for @280K in 1989, with 2-3bdrm, 2-ba houses and numerous outbuildings all in good condition from a family that wanted to retire. So, I do know one or two things about the travails of farming and ranching plus the political policies that manipulate them.

Oregon still has numerous small producers as a result of homesteading, and there still remain opportunities to enter the market at the level of a small producer. My grandparents on both sides were Citrus Ranchers, one included vines and wine production, in Southern California, and belonged to growers cooperatives that pooled their monies to purchase expensive equipment, which were very similar to Granges, of which Oregon has 175 still operating. Communalistic, not communistic or socialist, but all the same in reality. Same with the 100+ Farmer's Markets. Yes, Oregon's a rather unique state for numerous reasons, one being its ability to maintain its small farm/ranch heritage and not succumb to massive government subsidized agribusiness, although we do have some of that here; the difference being it doesn't dominate politically as it does in California and elsewhere in farm country.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 27 2019 23:13 utc | 212

Erdogan visits Russian air show MAKS, inspects Su-57 and asks Putin if it's available for sale. Putin replies: "You can buy it." At the United Aircraft Corporation pavilion, the leaders are given a talk on the capabilities of various Russian aircraft: turboprop trainer Yak-152, jet trainer and light fighter Yak-130, medium fighters MiG-29KUB and MiG-35D, heavy fighters Su-30SM, Su-35, and Su-57E, fighter-bomber Su-32 (export version of Su-34), and heavy stealth drone Su-70 (otherwise known as S-70 Okhotnik). They then visit the Tactical Missiles Corporation pavilion to see various aircraft munitions. Putin states that Russia is ready to organize flights of Turkish pilots on Su-30SM.

Erdogan says he discussed with Putin the creation of a safety zone in northern Syria. Putin follows by saying that the creation of a safety zone on the southern border of Turkey would be a good thing for ensuring the territorial integrity of Syria (note the discrepancy in geographical terms used). Putin adds that Russia and Turkey support the territorial integrity of Syria, are seriously concerned about the situation in Idlib, and are convinced that it should not be a haven for terrorists. Putin says he discussed with Erdogan the formation of the Syrian constitutional committee and expresses hope that it will start its work in Geneva soon.

Finally, Putin says that the first line of TurkStream pipeline will start operating before the end of this year (previously, the launch date was January 1, 2020).

Posted by: S | Aug 27 2019 23:14 utc | 213

@ Noirette | Aug 27 2019 18:46 utc | 183

People who are savvy about how jails and prisons work understand that it is the guards themselves who bring in and out the contraband. This is because they have the ability to do it, and are selected for only moderate intelligence, and are poorly paid as well as being more or less from the criminal classes. Then of course there's blackmail...some of the guests are way smarter n' the screws.

Given the 6 degrees principle just ask 'round to your friends and find somebody that knows a prison guard - ask 'im.

It is this way in all prisons, although some are more corrupt than others.

The broken bone in the neck makes the ringer look empty. The changing of the story after the first reports makes it look like a crime scene.

Cops get warrants on far less evidence.

It's the Old Army Game, comrades.

Posted by: Walter | Aug 27 2019 23:23 utc | 214

aye, myself & me | Aug 27 2019 22:46 utc | 210--

Here's one for ya:

"If there is one thing I want young people to know, it is that they are incredibly powerful.

"The corporate media or the political establishment may not tell them that. But it's true.

"If young people get involved in the political process they can transform this country."

That was Sanders earlier today paraphrasing Nader's 2000 campaign message!

When you're face-to-face with someone, can you tell when they lie to you? I usually can, even when I've never met the person. I want to look Bernie Sanders straight in the eye and ask him to tell me why I should trust him. I put that question to Ralph Nader in 2000. He said, Because I've always fought for the people's best interest and been as honest as possible. I thanked him and shook his hand. Admittedly, such an opportunity as that is rare.

How does one win over a cynic? One who won't put any trust in someone until such trust is justified through actions? Is there anyway to regain the trust of someone once it's lost through an action?

The above are the questions many have for Sanders, including me.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 27 2019 23:43 utc | 215

"What good does it do us or Sanders for him to denounce BigLie Media while continuing to give credence/credibility to the #1 BigLie its made continually over the past THREE years?!"
karlofi @193
Here's an answer. The lie is dead now. It has lost its power to fascinate. It no longer matters except as an example of the DNC's deceifulness/dishonesty.
But while it was still circulating Sanders had nothing to gain-and, I'm not being complimentary, he is very shrewd politician, and realised that the DNC wanted him to say-what every sane person in the world knew- that the charges against Putin and Trump were ludicrous. And we know what happened to people who said that, don't we? They were drummed to the margins, called Putinbots and Trump apologists etc. And not allowed to open their mouths withoutr being accused of working for the Kremlin.
Sanders is clever enough to insist on fighting on his own terms, rather than those that Podesta and the MSM decide upon.
And that is why, while we were all laughing at Russiagate, Sanders pretended to be taking it seriously.
And is now fighting the campaign on his terms, as outlined above.
If you look back at William Jennings Bryan, for example, in 1896. Or FDR in 1932/36. You will find that they were both incredibly compromised and, for the purist, impossible to back. FDR's mentor in the Party, who organised much of his campaign and was part of the inner circle, Josephus Daniels was responsible for the long delayed 'redemption' of North Carolina and for the Wilmington race riots. FDR was backed by some of the least savoury Jim Crow bosses, the Klan and criminal urban machines. But you had to back him. Just as you had to back Bryan in 96.
One of the reasons why American politics has always been so corrupt is the refusal of honest people to get involved with the crooks. Sanders is a crook, in the sense that he can be deceitful-he backs the F35 for chrissake- but he is the only option in 2020. And the best option there has been since Henry Wallace. Oh, yes and he is politically, about 10,000 times better than either of the Kennedys.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 27 2019 23:52 utc | 216

CarlD@204 Thanks for that. It is not unusual is it? By which I mean that it is comparable with for example the medieaval English village or pre-British India but I didn't know it.

I seem to recall (fifty years after reading it) that Lewis Namier, the Zionist and historian of Parliament (EPThompson called him a Marxist in reverse) in Vanished Supremacies wrote of the Poles in Top Hats who intervened in the Frankfurt Diet in 1848 to warn the Germans that there had been a jacquerie in Ukraine and that they could no longer support the Revolution. Paradoxically it was the Russians who restored the ungrateful Poles to their lands.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 28 2019 0:02 utc | 217

Would be curious to find out Your assessment of the Amazon fires situation. clearly any amount of fires there can't be good.. many people here also go on Zero Hedge, which has a pretty strong biased anti-environmental stance.. seems they haven't held back on dousing water on the whole Amazon fire narrative with one of their own... would be nice to hear some objective analysis of the facts please Mr B.

Posted by: EtTuBrute | Aug 28 2019 0:06 utc | 218

bevin @ 218; Exactly!!!

Posted by: ben | Aug 28 2019 0:08 utc | 219

Who was Harry Welsch? Harry was a crypto specialist in German crypto. It seems he realized that ENIGMA was breakable... and wrote "Aktennotiz zum Tiefenproblem bie der Enigma"

See Crypto Cellar Tales blogspot. A copy of the Tiefenproblem paper is linked there.

It also seems that the Germans failed to properly address this matter.

A pathway not taken...

So, b and all y'all - who indeed was Harry Welsch?

Anybody wanna take on the translation? (My German is quite marginal).

Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2019 0:08 utc | 220

"The Media’s Russian Radiation Story Implodes Upon Scrutiny"

Very detailed article by Scott Ritter

"How the mainstream media reported an August 8 accident at a top-secret missile test facility in northern Russia should serve as a cautionary tale regarding the dangers of rushed judgments via institutional bias.

In the days following the initial report of the accident, the media exploded with speculation over both the nature of the device being tested at the Nenoksa State Central Marine Test Site and the Russian government’s muted response. Typical of the hysteria was the analysis of Jeffrey Lewis, director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program for the James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies and editor of the blog “Arms Control Wonk.”

Lewis and his collaborators penned a breathless article for Foreign Policy that asked, “What Really Happened?” According to Lewis, the answer was clear: “The reference to radiation was striking—tests of missile engines don’t involve radiation. Well, with one exception: Last year, Russia announced it had tested a cruise missile powered by a nuclear reactor. It calls this missile the 9M730 Burevestnik. NATO calls it the SSC-X-9 Skyfall.”

Lewis’s assessment was joined by President Trump’s, who tweeted, “The United States is learning much from the failed missile explosion in Russia…. The Russian ‘Skyfall’ explosion has people worried about the air around the facility, and far beyond. Not good!” Trump’s tweet appeared to conform with the assessments of the intelligence community, which, according to The New York Times, also attributed the accident to a failed test of the Skyfall missile.

Former Obama administration national security analyst Samantha Vinograd tweeted: “Possibly the worst nuclear accident in the region since Chernobyl + possibly a new kind of Russian missile = this is a big deal.”

The Washington Post editorial board joined Vinograd in invoking the imagery of Chernobyl: “If this slow dribble of facts sounds familiar, it is — the same parade of misdirection happened during the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in 1986.”

They’re all wrong. Here’s the real story of what actually happened at Nenoksa..."

Posted by: DaffyDuct | Aug 28 2019 0:08 utc | 221

CarlD @ 204, Bevin @ 219:

It's my understanding that in such systems of land ownership, when the landholder dies the land might revert back to the tribe, to be given to someone else newly married.

A similar system operates in China with land use rights allocated to users for a specific time (70 years in the case of land use rights for residential purposes).

Most of modern-day Poland was part of the Russian empire in 1848. In those days also, the area regarded as Polish or belonging to Poles was farther east than it is now and included parts of Belarus and the city of Kiev itself.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 28 2019 0:33 utc | 222

Bevin 213

There is a fundamental difference between plot allocation in medieval Europe and African land management.

The endowed is not obligated to reserve part of his crop to some higher authority
In the African version crops are to the Farmer.

A far cry from the levies exacted from the serfs on lord's lands.

The african version is communism? I am not sure because an indolent farmer will not have crops. I do not have an answer to that question. There is no transmission of property to the descendants.

Posted by: CarlD | Aug 28 2019 0:38 utc | 223

The USSR took thermoelectic gizmos to considerable advances. even making kerosene powered radios... No kidding.http://onetuberadio [dot]com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/1958AugRadioNews.jpg That was a KTG (K for kero)

My bet is that their RTG's are very good. But cesium 137 is nasty stuff. Goes right to the bone, they say. Gundersen @ fairewinds [dot] com has considerable dope on radioactive materials, including the straight stuff on fukushima - an ongoing global dump into the Pacific... a dump just getting started... and much on C137...

The Ritter article has the ring of truth. Thanks.

Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2019 0:50 utc | 224

@Jen #224:

Most of modern-day Poland was part of the Russian empire in 1848. In those days also, the area regarded as Polish or belonging to Poles was farther east than it is now and included parts of Belarus and the city of Kiev itself.

I can assure you that no part of Kiev was regarded as Polish in 1848. The Poles ceded the lands to the east of Dnieper as well as Kiev and its neighboring lands to the Tsardom of Russia on May 6, 1686.

Posted by: S | Aug 28 2019 1:20 utc | 225

Well, as if we needed any more proof of a Netanyahu's attempt to increase tensions for craven political benefit, there's Michael Snyder (via ZeroHedge): Fighting Escalates Dramatically As Both Sides Prepare For "The Final War" Between Israel And Iran, in which he claims that:

Over the past several days, Israel has attempted to prevent attacks by Iranian forces and their allies by striking targets in Syria, Gaza, Lebanon and Iraq.
Really? AFAIK, Israel hasn't described specific attacks that were thwarted.

Snyder then uses Iraqi and Hezbollah's anger at Israel's acts of war (cause, um ... that's what they are) as examples of pre-crime hatred that justifies Netanyahu's Israel's attacks.

Netanyahu's self-serving deviousness has blown up his face. Hasbara media assets are busy trying to recover the high ground. IMO their attempt to do so will fail miserably as it's transparent and thus digs the hole deeper. Leading to the question: Will Netanyahu accept defeat at the polls or will he continue with the dirty tricks (at the risk of war)?

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>

The above should be read in conjunction with my criticism of Magnier @29 and @148.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2019 2:11 utc | 226

Heard the singers playin
How they cheered for more

The crowd had come together
tryin to keep warm

Still the rain kept pourin
fallin on my knee

And I wonder, still I wonder
Who'll stop the rain?

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 28 2019 2:41 utc | 227

S @ 227:

Sorry, my mistake - was still thinking 1648 when I typed my comment @ 224!

Posted by: Jen | Aug 28 2019 3:02 utc | 228

@ Jackrabbit #228 about Netanyahu...thanks

I read in the past 24 hours somewhere that Pence has also been speaking about how the US needs to help Israel protect itself from being attacked......

It is way past time to bring the pimple to a head and deal with it.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 28 2019 3:36 utc | 229

Below is a link to a Xinhuanet article about BS coming out of the G7 meeting you might not have read yet

China voices firm opposition to G7 statement on Hong Kong

The take away quotes
The G7 reportedly reaffirmed the existence and the importance of the 1984 Sino-British Joint Declaration on the Question of Hong Kong and called for avoiding violence in a joint statement issued Monday at the end of a G7 summit held in Biarritz, France.
"Since Hong Kong returned to the motherland in 1997, the Chinese government has exercised jurisdiction over Hong Kong according to the Constitution and the Basic Law," he said. "Based on international law and basic norms governing international relations, no other country or organization is entitled to meddle in Hong Kong affairs under the pretext of the Joint Declaration."
The death of empire cannot come too soon, IMO

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 28 2019 3:47 utc | 230

Only weeks ago and without evidence, Hasbara media assured us that Iran was responsible for attacks on shipping in the Gulf and that they planned to conduct more such terrorist attacks to ward off their enemies.

Now we find that it's Israel that's expanding their launching unprovoked attacks.

Yet no one bats an eye because Hasbara media assets massage the news: first of Netanyahu's self-serving bluster and aggression and then the blow-back. Nothing to see here(!) - except Iranian terror and Netanyahu's defense of Israel. LOL.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2019 3:53 utc | 231

@ Jen who responded to my comment about US socialism with
I might suggest that people should have free access to the Internet and related technologies because, for better and for worse, they have become a necessary feature of daily life for nearly everyone apart from the most marginalised communities or for those most determined to get off the grid. Access to the Internet and its technologies should become a political right along with having the right to access shelter, food and education.
America has had "communication" socialism since the beginning under what is now the USPS and of course it should be expanded to fit the times...thanks

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 28 2019 3:57 utc | 232

@ karlof1 # 217

Thank you for your reply.

"When you're face-to-face with someone, can you tell when they lie to you? I usually can, even when I've never met the person."

You are fortunate there, i've tried to take everyone at their word, until proven wrong, which over the years and clear hindsight, likely wasn't the best approach.

"How does one win over a cynic? One who won't put any trust in someone until such trust is justified through actions?"

I don't believe your second question describes a cynic. I certainly don't look at myself as a cynic for trusting folks until they prove differently. Blind trust perhaps, but what's life without some blind faith in something? (pun intended) The reason i'm 'cynical' of Bernie is because he's a proven cog, in a party that's done everyone wrong, including single handedly giving us the federal reserve. They've also wronged Bernie and Henry Wallace before him. How can anyone trust the democrats, or the republicans, with their sordid history for more than a century, karlof1?.

"Is there anyway to regain the trust of someone once it's lost through an action?"

Juliania above @ 190 stated that Dr. Jill Stein offered him a spot on her ticket in 2016 and he totally ignored her? If so, i think that one action on his part negates any chance he's to be believed once he's elected as a democrat.

Big money has eaten away all his credibility. Imho, just another millionaire who wants to be a multimillionaire before retirement and if in fact he's been consumed by great wealth, corruption can't be far away, eh?

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Aug 28 2019 4:11 utc | 233

aye, myself & me @235:

... Dr. Jill Stein offered him a spot on her ticket in 2016 and he totally ignored her?


He entered the race to "raise issues", not to defeat Hillary, his "friend of 25 years".

He had no interest in "raising issues" as part of a third party, though. Because third-party candidates can't win. Wait ... what?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2019 4:23 utc | 234

What would a 15 second clip of Clinton's bare ass thrusting a young teen do the Markets?
Or Trump's rump? Or Andrew or MBS?
Posted by: fastfreddy | Aug 27 2019 16:53 utc | 174

I'll be VERY VERY surprised if Epstein has video of Trump porking an underage female. Trump has a dominant personality, an ego bigger than Texas and charm he can turn on and off like a tap. He could get any 21+ year-old woman he wanted and probably has a wish-list of mature women he'll bonk before he dies - if he gets half a chance. I'm 100% certain he'd rather trick a smart, savvy mature woman into bed than a kid. It'd be no fun at all. An anti-climax.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 28 2019 7:52 utc | 235

karlof1 | Aug 27 2019 19:13 utc | 185
Well, I had created a forum for such discussions since we first met and had that brief talk on "movement". Here it is:

Now having said (and provided) that...
..I think the problem (from my pov) is not seemingly bad (or whatever) habits of barflies. It is the ambition to emulate in the "alternative" field what "real" (ie. ideal) journalism and media should be. Being a bit overtaxed by that, and knowing that demands have risen, one attempts to resort to swarm intelligence of sorts. That, however, is only the according approach on the journalistic field. You are in need of similarly "alternative" theorists who can provide you the matches on the field of deeper analysis or even "principles" and philosophy (Hudson? Marx? who else...). And you're still waiting - for more. Because... there are some parts still missing: "alternative" leaders (Tulsi? Bernie?); "alternative" (third?) party; "alternative" academic stuff of experts; "alternative" think tanks; "alternative" donors... and don't forget, above all: a MOVEMENT!
In all of that, barflies as you are hoping to contribute on their special chosen field, as others may do on theirs. How that all may come together... who knows (God?).
So the problem is twofold: 1st, to bring all the intellectual elements needed for "votes" (approvals, dismissals) and decision making together - in one and only one brain. And 2nd, make this stuff enter the brains of as many people's brains as possible. And that, of course, does change the "stuff" a lot (because it has to be made up for to meet these two requirements).
(The question is a bit similar to that one, What would you take with you in an emergency case?
Which, unfortunately, may be more than just a metaphor...)

So, again... may I remind you of my remarks on building a movement? It is really serious, and make no mistake, the problems are more or less the same all over the industrialized world, at least the EU countries, so please don't take it as a just being sentiumental phrase: We belong together, should talk to each other, should pool our forces... (our adversaries have been doing that since long, creating the invective "anti-american" = not being on their "transatlantic", neoliberal/liberal interventionist/ neocon side, just one step away from being anti-(zionist=)semitic ...)

Posted by: franziska | Aug 28 2019 8:17 utc | 236

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 28 2019 7:52 utc | 239

I partly agree. Not the bit about Trump being able to get any 21+ year old woman he wanted - the leaked "lockerroom talk" video proved that he could not.
But the bit about him being into mature women is obviously true.
If there is kompromat on Trump it will be financial ie illegal campaign contributions, tax evasion and money laundering. But like Epstein, Trump is likely to have some backchannel to the FBI and CIA eg for the Trump Ocean Club in Panama.
Congress seems to be ganging up on Trump's financial record and they are likely to be a lot more successful than Mueller's investigation.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 28 2019 8:21 utc | 237

MEE exclusive alleging Israeli drones are operating in Eastern Syria w Saudi money and Kurdish/US support:

Posted by: EtTuBrute | Aug 28 2019 9:53 utc | 238

The West was driving globalisation.
Now the East.
The student becomes the master.
Ultimately, it's bigger than China.

There is a reason the owners wanted Brexit.
The referendum was predetirmined - it's always 52% +/-.

Appears the dems plan to throw the election.

Economy collapsing.

Perfect setup for war.
Situation requires clean slate.

Posted by: jared | Aug 28 2019 10:20 utc | 239

Thanks noirette #183, That was helpful and i still find that image on the gurney at the emergency entrance problematic mainly because the Epstein head seems way oversize.

On the subject of the tweet or whatever from someone 'inside' alleging a bait and switch to release E into hiding, Corbett demolishes that by reading on that tweeter where he admits it was friendly hoax.

It certainly doesn't render any proof one way or t'other about whether E is truly dead. But I can surely say that there was no way E could have succeeded given the physics of the method and the geometry of the cell. And he broke bones in neck!with a paper sheet. Pull the other leg.

THE burning issue... Why is Les Wexner free with his accomplice Ghislane Maxwell.

Whitney Webb has a phenomal grip on this story and seriously outs AG Barr as hopelessly conflicted. I cant recall the last time the USA had a good AG. Bobby Kennedy? but then....

Where the f#ck is #metoo ?? Why is there no extreme outrage over these predators?

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 28 2019 10:56 utc | 240

@ karlof1 | Aug 27 2019 23:13 utc | 214

It grieves me to hear about what can only be considered the demise of State Fairs, the one in your state was notorious for its quality but the shift from an agricultural exhibition of accomplishment and excellence to entertaining throngs, separating them from their earnings, well … . Had those things not changed, the state fair was a good way to understand economics and what economic workings were. My @ #203 was an attempt to give an outline of the costs of investments required to produce economic goods for consumption. Oh well, time passes and the world changes, maybe not for the better but who knows.

Your experience deserves great respect. Few young today will ever have black earth under their fingernails or any connection with the earth, their sustenance obtained from plastic wrappings or flash-frozen in plastic packaging. No question who's memories are or will be the richer and judgments the sounder. Maybe that is why the founding fathers had only the requirement for practicing citizenship the possession of property the only barrier. At that time obtaining property was hardly an obstacle to citizenship; maybe not such a bad idea after all, look at what is allowed to vote now.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 28 2019 11:30 utc | 241

I would not trust anyone calling himself a Trotskist.Here in France we have no less than three trotskist parties,each presenting a candidat at presidential elections,and by doing so,splitting up leftist vote to between 0,5 and 2 %.This might be due to the fact that French people have problems understanding each other,though they seem to speak the same language.
Many people who came to power,have been member of trotskist parties in their youth.The example that comes to mind is the predecessor of Jean-Claude Junker at the helm of the European Union,but there are many others,especially in Europe.
Trotskist are like takfiri radical islamists.It can be part of their strategy of conquering the world,to disguise themselves under different denominations or ideologies.

Posted by: willie | Aug 28 2019 11:32 utc | 242

UN Observer @ 238:

It's my understanding that much of the trillions allocated by US Congress to the Pentagon actually ends up supporting communities in suburban, semi-rural and even some rural parts of the United States that would otherwise lose people and money, and become ghost towns. The money the Pentagon receives goes to private corporations such as Lockheed Martin which establish and maintain factories that provide manufacturing jobs and employment in depressed communities and towns, particularly in the electorates of those politicians who vote to increase the defence budget. The result is that instead of concentrating manufacturing plants in cities or large towns close to transport links or ports, private arms manufacturers can have factories located across the country in areas far from major centres of population.

Private corporations may also spend big on the election war chests of politicians who throw US taxpayer dollars their way. So it happens that the money goes round and round from politicians to corporations and back again.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 28 2019 11:37 utc | 243

@ Formerly T-Bear | Aug 28 2019 11:30 utc | 245

Your comment on earth under fingernails and connection to the earth [and this seeming to have a connection to a desirable morality] brought to mind what Thomas Jefferson said many times to many different people. A people with their hands in the dirt every day are just less...detached. Wise words you speak.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 28 2019 11:47 utc | 244

@ Don Bacon | Aug 27 2019 22:36 utc | 208

a farmer has at least 3 PhD qualifications just to contend in the business

No need for a tongue-in-cheek, you're on track, if manufacturing food is akin to other manufacturing.

No agriculture is NOT like any other industry other than scale. Manufacturing would be muscle powered; industry uses energy to do work if a difference is needed.

For the farm production of grains, vegetable, fruits and nuts for feeding people the farmer must be sufficiently knowledgable in: agronomy; soil chemistry; soil preparation, planting, cultivation, harvesting, transportation, marketing, financing, contracting and legal familiarity, planning and economic management. Just where would less than three PhDs do all that? By 'tongue-in-cheek' would you have meant hyperbolic? No, don't think so.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 28 2019 11:51 utc | 245

@ Anacharsis | Aug 28 2019 11:47 utc | 248


Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 28 2019 11:59 utc | 246

Concerning the discussion of farming above I would like to relate what I learned about the profession during my years in rural Japan, as it seems quite different from the experience of American farmers.

First, all farmers in Japan belong to a national farmers union/co-op called Noukyou and identified by the initialism "JA". The union/co-op owns all of the harvesting/planting machinery, while the farmers can only sell what they produce through the co-op.

Second, Japanese farms tend to be small. To my knowledge there are no mammoth 10,000 acre farms in Japan, with most farms being a few dozen acres at the most. Though there are huge areas of farmland in Japan, it mostly seems divided up into family-manageable lots. The bigger parcels seem to be directly owned by the union/co-op and all the nearby farmers pitch in to plant, maintain, and harvest those parcels. From what I could see, precisely who is responsible for what with regards to these big common parcels is hashed out at local meetings and the decisions washed down with vast quantities of a Japanese style vodka called shouchuu.

Third, the biggest crop that the Japanese raise is rice. They utilize wet-field farming for the rice, which is astonishingly more productive per acre than the dry-field farming used in America.

While western farmers may look at this and moan "Muh Freedums!", the results of the Japanese approach seem to be pretty good. The farmers union/co-op shoulders most of the risk and heavy investments. Also, since the union/co-op is the only buyer/wholesaler of what the farms produce, the farmers never compete on price and so their income per bushel or ton or whatever stays stable. Sure, Japanese farmers won't ever get rich this way, but they all have comfortable, low-stress lifestyles. They have a couple months per year of moderately hard work planting and harvesting with the entire rest of the year spent kicking back, watching the rice grow, and sipping shouchuu.

The down side? Rice is super expensive in Japan. Americans, accustomed to paying a couple bucks for a ten pound bag of rice go into shock when they see how much rice costs in Japan. Of course, that cheap American rice tends to taste like crap, and few Americans can imagine rice that tastes so good that you wouldn't imagine mixing it with other things to eat it.

So rice is expensive in Japan, but everybody there still eats rice with almost every meal. No farmers in Japan own heavy farming equipment, but they all still use heavy farming equipment. Farmers in Japan never get rich, but they also never lose their farms to the vagaries of the weather or the market. It seems to me that Japan has worked out a nice sustainable balance that meets everyone's needs and keeps the small family farms viable. It's also what I would call socialist.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 28 2019 13:50 utc | 247

@ Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 28 2019 10:56 utc | 243

The same way Rove gave true draft records retyped-as ringers to expose truth to be false the "hoax" tweet or whatever serves the Old Army Game.

All jails are crime scenes, all have contraband in and out - nearly all via guards. And the ringer was murdered...

Why anybody would believe there proven liars is beyond me. Jailbreak/swaps are standard as a dead cat in the big league.

Posted by: Walter | Aug 28 2019 14:15 utc | 248

- Topic: Jeffrey Epstein.

Whitney Webb gave an interview to "Consortium News Live" in which she gave several details on the Epstein case.

- The video is 2 hours and 34 minutes in length. Webb's interview starts at the 1 hour and 17 minutes mark and lasts to the end of the video.

- The first 1 hour and 17 minutes is dedicated to the case of julian Assange. One Mary Kostakidis and one Mark Davis talk about his case.
- Mark Davis tells his story on how Julian Assange was trapped by the Guardian newspaper and (surprise, surprise) the New York Times in 2010. Davis came along with Assange (Kostakidis, Davis and Assange are all from Australia). Davis tells his story from the 34 minute mark to the 56 minute mark.

Posted by: Willy2 | Aug 28 2019 14:25 utc | 249

William Gruff says:

Of course, that cheap American rice tends to taste like crap, and few Americans can imagine rice that tastes so good that you wouldn't imagine mixing it with other things to eat it

of course it's no coincidence that Japanese cuisine is probably the healthiest on the planet...not to mention tastiest, most varied, most refined. it's deep culture, largely seasonal and fresh, paramount to their longevity and well-being.

apprentices work their way up through the food trade slowly, but are paid well all along the way, and, in fact, consider tips offensive.

Posted by: john | Aug 28 2019 14:30 utc | 250

William Gruff @250--

Thanks for the details on Collective Farming Japanese Style. Prior to WW2, the farmer's cooperatives in Southern California were very much like those in contemporary Japan. Unlike those beset by the travails of the Dust Bowl, few California farmers lost their livelihood during the Depression. The greatest land grab occurred during WW2 when thousands of Japanese-Americans had their property confiscated on their way to the Concentration Camps, and Farmers Cooperatives suffered greatly as a result. My maternal grandfather kept all his business records so I was able to audit them to see how he ran his citrus ranching operation. My paternal second cousins refused to totally subdivide the original ranch and kept the massive river-rock walled outbuildings along with several acres of orchards and vineyards as a living piece of history amid the condos and townhouses in what's now Rancho Cucamonga. I just hope their kids continue to cherish their heritage. The Wallaces of Iowa had an excellent idea that got usurped for the benefit of BigAg. Few understand the grim future awaiting land tilled under that regime.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 28 2019 16:00 utc | 251

Wilhelm Pieper's job as private secretary to Karl Marx was in translating his papers from German to English, starting in 1850, when Marx was establishing his home (and large family) in London and was not yet fully familiar with the English language. Pieper seems to have been in Marx's employ temporarily. He accepted the tutoring job with the Rothschild family in 1852 and that job seems to have been based in Bognor.
We can't assume that the Rothschilds in those days were anything like the Rothschilds now or that the banking industry and the social circles which the Rothschilds frequented and the culture they imbibed were similar to their modern equivalents. In the 19th century, for all their wealth, the Rothschilds were subjected to discrimination and denied honours for their work and philanthropy
Posted by: Jen | Aug 25 2019 23:45 utc | 48

Come now, Jen, are you claiming that the Rothschilds were benevolent philanthropists??? Perhaps you are living on a different planet from the rest of us. Shame on you! The suggestion is quite obscene.

The Rothschilds have been inciting and funding wars in Europe - for which they almost always were funding and profiting from both sides - for the last 300 years or more. Is that what you define as "philanthropy"? At the Battle of Waterloo, for example, the Rothschilds had their own spies instructed to send news of the result back to Rothschild faster than the King of England could get it, the better to manipulate and profit from the King's gold. (I can't remember offhand the lucrative concession he thereby extracted, but you can do a search for it yourself.)

If the Rothschilds had not been successful in precipitating so many wars they would certainly not have the pre-eminent position in world banking that they do have. The entire concept of the MIC is just a further development of the history of the Rothschilds.

Regarding Pieper: Are you suggesting that Pieper and Marx permanently lost contact with each other after change of jobs? Highly unlikely.

Posted by: BM | Aug 28 2019 16:08 utc | 252

Confirming Marx's theory:

Outlook for US corporate profits dims as trade war bites

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2019 16:31 utc | 253

Ort 187, thanks, ok... Yes, the croon.

Epstein, JE, deserved to die is the spiel, the only reason for him to live was to give *closure* (eh what? err?) to the ‘victims’ - that circus is ongoing, they are being given their 15 mins of fame.

(I’m on the side of the victims - JE was odious and criminal - but this isn’t the way.. )

The readings on offer: - JE suicide (not, imho) - JE was murdered by a violent prisoner / by a paid killer inside or coming in from outside of the jail (payment, whatever..)

The 2 story lines serve to divide,

Those who support the PTB’s declared official JE suicide, contra doubters who think he was strangled to shut him up as he had ‘dope’ on powerful ppl, Clinton, Trump, the Duke Of York, etc.

All descends into a morass of trivia focussed on personal relations like in a bad movie plot.

Institutional corruption and total fabrications, cover-ups, the complicit lying media, are not questioned.

uncle tungsten 243, yes. Imho, as well, JE did not commit suicide with a sheet or other, that was impossible .

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 28 2019 16:31 utc | 254

@ Posted by: john | Aug 28 2019 14:30 utc | 253

Speaking of rice:

Chinese hybrid rice benefits the world

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2019 16:34 utc | 255

The trouble with HK,,,, three letter word...
its the Wogs !

'There is now abundant evidence that the UK and US are the black hand behind the events in Hong Kong. When the Hong Kong Bar association joined in the protests the west claimed that even the lawyers were supporting the protests in an attempt to bring justice to the people. But the leaders of that association are all either UK lawyers or members of law firms based in London, such as Jimmy Chan, head of the so-called Human Civil Rights Front, formed in 2002 with the objective of breaking Honk Kong away from China, such as Kevin Lam, a partner in another London based law firm, and Steve Kwok and Alvin Yeung, members of the anti-China Civic Party who are going to meet with US officials next week. Kwok has called for the independence of Hong Kong in other visits, some sponsored by the US National Security Council and has called for the US to invoke its Hong Kong Policy Act, which, among other things mandates the US president to issue an order suspending its treatment of Hong Kong as a separate territory in trade matters. The effect of this would be to damage China’s overall trade since a lot of its revenue comes through Hong Kong. The president can invoke the Act if it decides that Hong Kong “is not sufficiently autonomous to justify it being treated separately from China.”

Posted by: denk | Aug 28 2019 16:49 utc | 256

BM @2-- Hudson analyzed those policies and reported on them, which is what his opus Super Imperialism discusses.
Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 25 2019 22:44 utc | 45

With due respect, Karlof, the excellent autobiographical page you linked to a while back gives an entirely different perspective, especially with regard to Hudson's contribution to the development of the dollar recycling ponzi scheme. Given that the administration in the early 70's - according to Hudson's own description (and this is just from memory, appologies if some detail is wrong) - couldn't see the full dollar recycling implications of the petrodollar, how plausible is it that without Hudson's advice they could have implemented it's full brutal potential to the same devastating effect as they have done over the almost half-century since then? If he had published his conclusions on dollar recycling in an openly published journal available for everybody to read, instead of as confidential advice to a president, what effect would that have had on the ability of the US to exploit and rape half the world since then? I recall there was something important also with gold and gold prices described in the same autobiographical article, but I'm afraid I cannot remember the details offhand.

It is a serious misrepresentation to suggest Hudson was only "analysing" and "publishing" - more importantly he was interacting and advising. He has been an advisor to numerous administrations. As such he was an active participant.

I am a supporter of Hudson. I think he is a great man, he has written extremely important books, he is doing some great things now. But it is important to view Hudson in the context of Hudson as he really was (and is) and has done, not just what you want to see of him. Just as you do with Sanders and Gabbard.

Human beings are highly complex beings, in which a multiplicity of internal contradictions exert often opaque influences on what we do and how we think. People are not perfect. You will honour Hudson much more by recognising his imperfections as an intrinsic part of him - and accepting them as a part of him - than by blocking out those imperfections and pretending that he is perfect (by doing which, you will only add to the contradictions).

It is important to recognise the contribution Hudson has given to explanations of economics and the interrelation of economics, geopolitics and society; it is also important to recognise the contribution he is now making to the development of a multipolar world through his advice to the Chinese government(although the Chinese government is certainly most highly able!), and his campaigning, teaching and research on debt cancellation; it is also important to understand him as he really is and as he has really done, not some idealisation thereof.

Posted by: BM | Aug 28 2019 17:03 utc | 257

vk | Aug 28 2019 16:31 utc | 256
I think you are relatiing to the law of the fall of the rate of profit (or at least the tendency for that). Is that right? If so, I have written a short argument against that.

Posted by: franziska | Aug 28 2019 17:50 utc | 258

The readings on offer: - JE suicide (not, imho) - JE was murdered by a violent prisoner / by a paid killer inside or coming in from outside of the jail (payment, whatever..)
Posted by: Noirette | Aug 28 2019 16:31 utc | 257

Another reading is possible: that Trump is using Epstein as a trump card against the Clinton/Obama/Mueller conspiracy to force cooperation and to block a repeat of Russiagate. Remember his threats to expose Epstein before his election.

A scenario might go something like this: Trump is the motivating force behind the prosecution of Epstein, designed to weaken his opponents and strengthen his own hands. After the first alleged suicide attempt (the first murder attempt), Barr goes to see Epstein in jail and proposes a covert scheme to protect Epstein from further murder attempts. Epstein - with his own approval - is subsequently shuffled out of the prison under guise of a fake suicide, and then gets to live out the rest of the investigation in very comfortable house arrest at a secret secure location, probably inside a US military base somewhere in Africa.

When the Epstein investigation is ready to go to court - especially if the opposing faction causes serious problems for Trump - Epstein is then wheeled out from under the covert "defendant protection scheme" for trial, and the Trump opposition then has apoplepsy.

Otherwise if the Trump opposition are sufficiently accommodating to Trump, maybe Epstein just withers away under secret house arrest, or if he is lucky is eventually given plastic surgery and a new identity in Israel. Either way Epstein has to protect Trump, since his continued detention is secret, so potentially he could be disappeared.

In this scenario, Epstein's fake suicide and disappearance would come under the label "defendant protection scheme" rather than criminal conspiracy/murder/evasion of justice etc. (In reality it is more likely to be a mixture of some of those).

Posted by: BM | Aug 28 2019 17:51 utc | 259

BM @260--

You raise valid points. My points are gleaned from other interviews and papers along with that autobio interview. Hudson admitted the first edition of Super Imperialism was purchased in great numbers by the government. His Wikipedia page has a good recap of his life, but is rather silent on what he did during his years at the Hudson Institute, although a clue is likely found within Global Fracture: The New International Economic Order, which aside from the linked essay I've yet to read.

Again, it occasionally occurs that an analyst details an aspect of behavior going unnoticed by a particular actor with the analyst unaware that the actor was also unaware. IMO, that was certainly the case with Hudson's first book; the sequel however seems to be written more as a warning to what Hudson felt were unsuspecting nations. Of course, the only way to determine the correct answer is to ask Hudson, which is why I read the interviews to see if that question's been asked. Consulting his biography at his website provides further insight.

As I wrote somewhere on this site, I'd very much like to write a biography of Hudson, which would entail interviewing him if at all possible. He likely has a repository of papers at UMKC that require close browsing, and there all of his published works. And I doubt I'm alone in wanting to do that project.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 28 2019 18:38 utc | 260

It seems the West has unlocked its zoo:

Thousands gather at #MeToo rally to demand Hong Kong police answer accusations of sexual violence against protesters

The Chinese better prepare for a spectacle of the most bizarre and exotic beasts from the liberal bestiary.

Posted by: vk | Aug 28 2019 19:59 utc | 261

Noirette @257

I think you've failed to recognize a third possibility: that Epstein was extracted from the prison and the dead body examined by the coroner was some homeless guy that was killed.

The suicide determination makes no sense - except to quickly release the body for disposal so that victims don't have a chance to make their own identification. Something that was very much justified as it's in the public interest and provides a greater degree of closure for the victims.

AFAIK, the only identification was a visual id by Epstein's brother who may inherit a substantial amount of money from Epstein's estate. The government should have Epstein's dna - but I haven't seen any mention of it being used to id Epstein.

And now, there is Ghislaine's "Good Boys, In and Out" video taunting that suggests that Epstein may have indeed been extracted.

Some will say this is a wachy "conspiracy theory" but dispelling this 'theory' would've been easy - until they released the body.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 28 2019 20:09 utc | 262

Continuing from my earlier summary of Erdogan's visit to Russia (#215), today the head of Russia's Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Dmitriy Shugaev revealed (Russian) that Russia and Turkey are discussing the potential purchase of Su-35 and Su-57E jet fighters, as well as unspecified electronic warfare systems. He met today with Turkish Undersecretary for Defense Industries İsmail Demir. Shugaev also revealed that the second batch of S-400 deliveries has started yesterday.

Posted by: S | Aug 28 2019 21:14 utc | 264

In other news, today the head of the Eurasian Economic Commission Tigran Sargsyan and Iran's Ambassador to Russia Mehdi Sanaei have announced (Russian) the completion of all procedures necessary to put into force the Interim Agreement on the Iran–EAEU free trade area. The Interim Agreement will come into force on October 27, 2019.

Posted by: S | Aug 28 2019 21:37 utc | 265

@bevin #200
@Jen #209
No doubt the Ukrainian peasants believed the land was "theirs", but my understanding is much as what Jen wrote: the actual owners didn't care what the peasants believed so long as the real owners got the fruits. A Polish-Lithuanian feudal knight or his boyar successor would both believe they owned everything, particularly since they generally also controlled high, low and middle justice - meaning there was no independent entity to assist said peasants with enforcing their claim.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 28 2019 22:27 utc | 266

@Jen #213
I fear there are a number of implicit assumptions underlying what you wrote, although I think I understand what you're trying to say.
First: the concept that money taken out of circulation loses value is correct today but is not correct historically. Money as Gold under the gold standard increased in value over time - hence the "cross of gold" speech by William Jennings Bryan. Bitcoin is another, more.modern example of an inherently deflationary system.
Second, I believe you are confusing credit creation with money velocity. A bank creates credit/money when it fractional reserve lends. It also creates risk because the bank is lending long and borrowing short.
Velocity, on the other hand, is how much the "average" dollar changes hands in an economy.
You can have 2 economies with the same number of people, wealth, dollars etc but the one with higher money velocity is more prosperous.
EU negative interest rates, US ZIRP are both outcomes of central banks trying to increase money velocity.
The problem with your idea of forcing money to move is the sake problem central banks have: the people who have too much of it just don't do much with what they have. Money with Poor people cycles very fast because these people gain and spend it very quickly to live. Billionaires can do a Scrooge with 99.99% of their money if they want because they have bonded to spend.
It seems to me the much easier solution is to prevent too much accumulation and to redistribute existing hoards rather than attempt to catch every sparrow falling - which is what your system would require.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 28 2019 22:45 utc | 267

- Topic: Epstein.

- Whitney Webb had an interesting take (/theory)on why Epstein was indicted and arrested (and killed ??). She sees similarities between Epstein and Robert Maxwell, owner of the Mirror media group and who died in 1991.
- Maxwell worked for the Mossad for a long time. But his Mirror media group had financial problems in the late 1980s. Webb says that Maxwell demanded from the Mossad more and more money to save his Mirror media group. But the Mossad got fed up with his (outreageous) financial demands. He no longer was considered to be an asset but became a liability. And that is why Maxwell was killed in 1991.
- Epstein also seems to have become a liability for one of the intelligence agencies and therefore had to "be taken out".

The video I posted in reply # 252 in this thread.

- Robert Maxwell:

- My personal opnion is that Wikipedia is very friendly for Maxwell. I cetainly would have used more strong language/words. Israel is known to patrol Wikipedia and to tone down/remove the language that puts Israel in a "bad light".

Posted by: Willy2 | Aug 29 2019 0:02 utc | 268

Willy2 @271

Robert Maxwell's "death" is just as suspicious as Epstein's.

While it is claimed that Maxwell was demanding money from Mossad, it has also been claimed that Maxwell raided his company's pension funds for Mossad. We will probably never know the truth. But someone wrote a comment that after his death, Robert Maxwell's body was delivered to Israel for autopsy. So, like Epstein, there may be no independent confirmation of Maxwell's death. Only a convenient story for those he cheated.

Witney Webb writes that Maxwell was also engaged in other, um ... adventures linked to Mossad that we blowing up or soon to blow up. It seemed that the time was ripe for Maxwell's "retirement" - just as it was for Epstein's "retirement".

Also, doesn't it seem strange that Ghislaine would follow in her father's footsteps (joining Mossad, running influence ops, etc.) if Mossad had really killed him?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 29 2019 0:36 utc | 269

Update on Gabbard's situation:

"Tulsi has ~170,000 individual donors. Two national polls this week alone put her at or above the required threshold (but they're not "approved" by the DNC). She's ahead of Beto, Yang, Klobuchar, Booker, and Castro in New Hampshire. Excluding her from the debates is a total joke."

Then there's this dated report on the DNC Fraud Lawsuit I'd never seen:

"DNC Lawyers Argue Primary Rigging Is Protected by the First Amendment:

"The defense counsel for the DNC appeared to argue that if the Democratic Party did cheat Sanders in the 2016 Presidential primary race, then it was protected under the first amendment."

Results of first trial and judgment of Appellate Court to allow 2nd trial.

Given what's allowed by the first court ruling, DNC could rob Sanders or any other candidate of the nomination upon its own whim and to hell with what the public voted for. Clearly, this news didn't get the national airing it required, likely covered up by Russiagate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2019 0:36 utc | 270

William Gruff @ 250:

A similar system operates in the dairy industry in Canada. It relies on supply quotas being set for Canadian farmers. Each farmer supplies a set quota of milk and related products as determined by a marketing agency. This ensures that oversupply never occurs which would drive down prices and farmers' incomes, forcing them to compete on price (as they do in Australia and parts of the US) and eventually forcing some farmers to leave an industry their families might have worked in for decades. Oversupply also works to the advantage of supermarkets and corporations that buy the product, especially if they're the only buyers: they effectively become the employers of the dairy farmers and can dictate the prices at which they'll buy the milk, encouraging even more oversupply.

If a farmer does supply more than his/her quota, s/he isn't paid any extra income but the extra amount may balance out an undersupply by another farmer.

I presume Japanese rice farmers also have supply quotas determined for their farms - you don't say if they do in your comment.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 29 2019 1:18 utc | 271

@ karlof1 #273

I followed your link, which i nearly always do and clicked thru to other articles, which produced a link to I'm curious if this might be a movement you could get behind? Certainly
seems quite promising on it's surface. I'm going to look into it further.

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Aug 29 2019 2:09 utc | 272


Intersting piece. I hope you don't mind I read it too and have some thoughts.

I tend agree with you that different inputs besides labour are now involved in production of products.

But in manufacturing the law of diminishing profits still applies. In the more esoteric modes of enterprise, such as knowledge work where the value of the experience, knowledge and ability to apply the knowledge justifies a larger rate of return.

This part isn't industrial and it is a large percentage of type of work in the West and US.

And guess what? I don't want to do that work no matter how much it pays. Sorry just be honest here. My dad was a blue collar guy and I worked with him on weekends and vactions. Hated it.

That was just his time.

I'm so far into my time that I'm out of time.

The only reason for life should be to make as exultant as I am.

I am ecstatic and striving.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 29 2019 4:04 utc | 273

@ Capitalism

It is useful to review a definition of capitalism before throwing the term about.

That not withstanding however, we must agree on one fundamental premise. That is:

Whether or not private property is a desirable feature of a modern society.

If we agree that private property is a desirable feature of a modern society, then we must necessarily understand, if not agree, that the arithmetic underpinning of centralized power systems is incompatible with same.

In our specific case, the Western model rests on 3 very well defined entities that have asymmetric power over each other.

In broad terms we have:

The central bank



In this triangle, the central bank has been anointed (arbitrarily and unilaterally) as the sole purveyor of the medium of exchange under penalty of law. Ergo, society is free to travel, free to associate, free to create enterprise and free to buy what it pleases. The only constraint is that in order to do any of the above, it MUST use the central bank's sanctioned medium of exchange.

Although there may be a degree of barter going on in an economy, neither the central bank nor government will allow the transfer of any title without taking their pound of flesh.

Thus, anything that can be defined as private property is necessarily and arithmetically subject to approval by the government and/or the central bank.

Government acts as the enforcer.

Society is subordinate to the other 2

That being the case, in a context where governments have been running perpetual fiscal deficits, eventually, the fiscal demands of government must necessarily and arithmetically result in the gradual, though accelerating, transfer of title towards the center of the system i.e. towards the purveyors of credit.

What should you take away.

In a centralized monetary system:

If governments of various stripes keep running deficits, political ideology is irrelevant.

A healthy society is a society where wealth can be spread. The arithmetical underpinning of a centralized monetary system cannot contemplate the spread of wealth.

The problem is the monetary system.

Capitalism is not at fault in any of this.

Posted by: guidoamm | Aug 29 2019 7:49 utc | 274

@ guidoamm | Aug 29 2019 7:49 utc | 277

It is useful to review a definition of capitalism before throwing the term about.

That not withstanding however, we must agree on one fundamental premise. That is:

Economic Goods (EG) satisfy: Needs, Wants, Desires (NWD)

Income (Ic) is receiving EG which are consumed to satisfy NWD

When Ic equals NWD = Living (L)

When Ic is less than (<) NWD = Wanting (Wa)

When Ic is greater than (>) NWD = Savings (Sa)

When Sa accumulate = Wealth (We)

We can be used: as EG; as Capital (C) to produce more Ic; as display of status (St)

Ic has four forms: Land (Ld); Labour (Lr); Capital (C); Entrepreneur (Ep) who uses the other three (Ld,Lr,C) to produce EG that are consumed to satisfy NWD.

Ic for Ld = Rent (R); Ic for Lr = Wages (Ws); Ic for C = Interest (It); Ic for Ep = Profit (Pt)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

That in a nutshell is the core of economics. All else is superstructure developed through experience to facilitate the core.

Those things are: Money (My); Bank(s) (Bk); Credit (Ct); Currency (Cy) and a number of other economic processes not here enumerated.

Get a sound vocabulary first! Then talk Economics - Please

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 29 2019 9:45 utc | 275

Noirette @257
I think you've failed to recognize a third possibility: that Epstein was extracted from the prison and the dead body examined by the coroner was some homeless guy that was killed.

Jack, yes…I was only listing the two main narratives… I wasn’t clear I guess..

From what I looked at (the hospital) my favored conclusion is that Epstein was never there, alive or dead, though one cannot be certain of course. That means either a) no post-mortem took place, the death certificate is an invention, etc. or b) a body was substituted. I favor b, and have wondered if the pasted-in face (supposed pix of Epstein being wheeled into hosp.) could be that of the body substitute. If so, the face had to be pasted in, as that John Doe body most certainly did not come from the jail (which doesn’t have spare dead bodies in the cellar) but was perhaps in the hospital or in a morgue / funeral home / etc. somewhere (or was killed on purpose to fit the bill..again probably not in the jail..) I find this idea appealing because it sort of ties some parts of the story together. Also fits with the observer of the autopsy chosen by Epstein’s lawyers having a very dubious reputation.

Remains to explain the doctors who dealt with the body accepting it was Epstein.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 29 2019 9:46 utc | 276

C1ue @ 270:

The assumptions I am making are these:
- money is used only as a medium of exchange
- its use as a store of value is discouraged, with batteries (if we assume electricity is currency) only allowed to store electricity for 12 calendar months from the day the batteries are filled
- electricity is generated (created) by everyone in the community through daily usage, perhaps by obtaining batteries or battery-operated gadgets and charging them, then using them to purchase items, or governments might issue such gadgets to people on a regular basis (weekly or monthly, in effect giving people universal income); in this scenario, there is no need for banks or similar financial institutions and fractional reserve lending is impossible.

In this environment there are no rich people who hoard electricity and flaunt it as wealth and nobody is poor because everyone has the ability (directly or indirectly) to create electricity by spending it into existence. The velocity of money in this economy would be such that money is continuously being created and destroyed at the same time (which is what is happening anyway in the cyberworld).

It would be a very different and alien world for both of us and most other MoA barflies. I'm still trying to get my head around it myself.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 29 2019 10:52 utc | 277

Formerly T-Bear | Aug 29 2019 9:45 utc | 278
So we can attach a simple definition of what makes a system of re-production (using a huge amount of division of labour, and an ever expanding basis of scientific knowledge and technology) "capitalism": Entrepreneur (Ep) who uses the other three (Ld,Lr,C) to produce or exploit more of (Ld, Lr, C). The problem is in the usage of "more", because the genuine "capitalistic" criteria for "success" are defined by relations, predominantly quantitative ones: being able to produce/exploit the SAME (in terms of... EG? Ic? We? C? (Ld, Lr, C)?) with LESS (in terms of...?) - and that is growth of productivity... without end and aim, apart from - itself.

With this in mind, back to guidoamm | Aug 29 2019 7:49 utc | 277
"The" problem you name, is not "the" problem or fault of capitalism, it is just a different one: Government expenses especially when financed by central bank money can interfere with growth of productivity - the "surplus capacities" of the re-production system are exhausted and exploited or used for other aims than gr.of pr. - eventhough there may be spin off effects, as eg military technology often enough is the most ambitious in a country, and its biggest achievements can be used for civil applications (mostly "afterwards"). That's why having and promoting an advanced arms industry mostly is a variety of "industrial policy" (the mighty MITI in Japan being a special case because of prohibition of arms production). And vice versa: fostering science and technology, and hence all branches of technologically ambitious industries, is a matter of "national security", as well as "export" of "sensitive" expertise and maintaining production reserves wrt military goods, look at Trump administration right now. The same is true of the means of government to finance such projects. And, the last consequence is true as well: Being a superpower, or trying to get at that level or keep it, is not good for "spreading wealth". It mostly means poverty for the "many".
Btw, we have almost arrived at the fourth page of comments. And, leaving aside the fact that Formerly-TB loves these debates in the end of OTs, you possibly see what I mean: what if we start discussions on that topic, too, right now. Too many ideas, too much material, too many confusing aspcts...

Posted by: franziska | Aug 29 2019 11:01 utc | 278

Considering the speed at which this blew over it doesn't look like there was any need at all for a dead body.

The way the "news" have disappeared I will assume that any purported corpse will already be claimed to be ash scattered at some suitably "meaningful" place not disclosed due to privacy concerns etc., ie.: they didn't even need to magic up any ash. All of it looks like it could have been made up with only the involvement of a handful of insiders truly knowing it if there was no physical harm, no dead body, and no autopsy.

Because there isn't any independent verification of any of it is there? A perfect little piece of faked news and a simple well executed illusion leaving behind a small mountain of inconsistencies everyone can argue about and waste their time on and no one can prove anything one way or the other because any actual evidence doesn't exist and never did.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 29 2019 11:18 utc | 279

@ franziska | Aug 29 2019 11:01 utc | 281

NO. Not simple definitions, just accurate definitions when describing a function or process. Look at the whole comment! It defines economics, all of economics, economics anywhere, economics over all time for economic mankind. No?

I have no idea what you are on about: re-production; huge amounts of division of labour; an ever expanding basis of scientific knowledge and technology; "capitalism"; exploit more; problem is in the usage of "more"; genuine "capitalistic" criteria for "success" are defined by relations, predominantly quantitative ones; able to produce/exploit; etc.etc. All undefined blather having nothing to do with that definition of economics provided. Air castles all and when they are brought into communications in economics end up in a horrible jumble meaninglessly strewn about. As a writer I am responsible for what I write; I am Not responsible for what you do with that writing. Heracles had it easy cleaning the Augean stables, he should have tried communicating economics.

Please do not get me amiss, I do enjoy your conversations and look forward to them. It's just that all manner of extraneous detritus not relevant seems to get interjected into the conversation. Sometimes that becomes overwhelming.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 29 2019 11:58 utc | 280

@ 283

Bloody bother:

Heracles ==> Hercules

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 29 2019 12:04 utc | 281

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 29 2019 11:58 utc | 283
Basic vocabulary sometimes is instrumental in forming more complex concepts. Nevertheless, if you have REALLY no idea (and not just feign it which you never would do, I know), you better forget it. Defining is not for the faint of heart. Worse than fighting Hydra.
PS: Not so bloody, Hercules is latin, Heracles is the original greek. Greetings from the nerd in charge.

Posted by: franziska | Aug 29 2019 13:28 utc | 282

@ franziska | Aug 29 2019 13:28 utc | 285

Because every profession does have a specific vocabulary for its needs demonstrates the only way the complexity of whatever profession can be communicated. Pity the poor patient whose surgeon confuses elbows and knees; pity also the insurance company that covers the liability claims. Those words and phrases come from a hodgepodge of uses: some quasi-economic, some political, some social and some rhetorical; no way to identify with confidence for determining its usage. The surest way to resolve the quandary is keep them out of circulation of economic subjects unless absolutely necessary and then only use them in defined terms. A little mud makes for a lot of cloudy water. Until the economists clean up their act, whatever produced must be treated as ignorant Babel issuing from infants.

Yes, or the Rothschild octopus as some would also generously offer.
I thought taking the Latin name would be less likely to confuse those the Greek name is 'Greek to them', as the turn of phrase goes.
Hope this clarifies somewhat. Thanks for reply.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 29 2019 14:15 utc | 283

@ franziska #285

Another example of need for competent use of vocabulary would be the case of a lawyer with a gun who does not have a clear grasp of the meaning behind 'habeas corpus'. I'll leave your imagination to sort that out. Cheers

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Aug 29 2019 14:32 utc | 284

Lula Interview Part 2 needs to get lots of exposure as it's full of excellent behind the door details! A tidbit:

"Lula made an explicit reference to the United States’ fears about a new currency: 'This was the logic behind BRICS, to do something different and not copy anybody. The US was very much afraid when I discussed a new currency and Obama called me, telling me, ‘Are you trying to create a new currency, a new euro?’ I said, ‘No, I’m just trying to get rid of the US dollar. I’m just trying not to be dependent.’"

And you can bet from that moment the plans were begun to destabilize Brazil and get Lula's Party ousted from power, although I sort of get a sense that Lula doesn't blame Obama when he should.

And in case you missed the first part, it's here. The interview lasted two hours, so Pepe's report could grow to 6 parts. An English dubbed video is supposed to become available. The rough-cut in Portuguese was linked to in the first part.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2019 15:23 utc | 285

aye, myself & me | Aug 29 2019 2:09 utc | 275--

Thanks for your reply and the link! I'll dig into it later today. I see it's located in Maine where the people are currently battling their dirtbag Governor, whose very presence in office says a lot about that state's polity.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2019 15:36 utc | 286

@ Jen # 280

"It would be a very different and alien world for both of us and most other MoA barflies. I'm still trying to get my head around it myself."

Batteries as a source of medium exchange, why bother? Why not remove 'money' and bartering altogether? Why not change our planet into a sharing one, with what resources we have left? Seems like rather than getting rid of banksters and their banks, we could eventually see lawyers and judges become obsolete too. Marketers, insurance companies and militaries could be on the cusp of obsolescence also and wouldn't all that be a small slice of seemingly utopian civilization?

Of course this would have to be implemented on a worldwide bases for it to work and a sharing world would most likely be a peaceful planet too. However, what would be truly incredible about this sort of system is one never have to explain economic theory again!! I'd also have to say that the US would be the least likely to accomplish such a transition, after all the wasteful consumerism it's been involved in, it would certainly take a high degree of chutzpah, on america's part.

You've likely already viewed this, but there's an eleven year old film on the subject titled Addendum, that explains it much better than i can.

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Aug 29 2019 16:47 utc | 287

@Jen #280
You said:

The assumptions I am making are these:
- money is used only as a medium of exchange
- its use as a store of value is discouraged, with batteries (if we assume electricity is currency) only allowed to store electricity for 12 calendar months from the day the batteries are filled

Any representation of value is also a store of value. Your attempt to use electricity as a method to minimize the storability, means that it is equally impossible for anyone to save. Some saving by the 99% is good; much saving by the 1% is bad. How do people prepare for retirement, if they cannot save? That's just one of the larger problems with lack of capacity to store value.
Another would be: how do you accumulate enough capital to build anything really capital intensive, like a dam or a semiconductor factory?
If your goal is to reduce everyone to pre-industrial means, why not just abolish all money period and go back to barter? It is the same result.
- electricity is generated (created) by everyone in the community through daily usage, perhaps by obtaining batteries or battery-operated gadgets and charging them, then using them to purchase items, or governments might issue such gadgets to people on a regular basis (weekly or monthly, in effect giving people universal income); in this scenario, there is no need for banks or similar financial institutions and fractional reserve lending is impossible.

Individuals have zero capacity go generate electricity. Solar panels, wind mills and batteries don't count, because they require billion dollar factories, as well as supra-individual infrastructure like distribution grids and commodity imports. You are fixated on the idea of electricity because of its transitory nature, but have completely ignored the reality that electricity is a state to national scale good.
In this environment there are no rich people who hoard electricity and flaunt it as wealth and nobody is poor because everyone has the ability (directly or indirectly) to create electricity by spending it into existence. The velocity of money in this economy would be such that money is continuously being created and destroyed at the same time (which is what is happening anyway in the cyberworld).

I don't know what cyberworld you live in; the cyberworld that I see is chock full of monopolies and unequal distribution ranging from bitcoin ownership to Trump media impact.
Yet again, I note that if your goal is to remove/reduce the inequality from the billionaire perspective, why not go right at it?
Do you really think billionaires are so stupid as to allow an economic/monetary change that destroys their stranglehold on capital? The struggle to achieve it would be no different than attempting outright nationalization.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 29 2019 16:59 utc | 288

Zarif's in Malaysia and provides us with this link to a video of his presentation at a Malaysian forum dealing with Daesh and other international topics. I highly suggest finding the 30 minutes needed to view and listen to his important observations and suggestions.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2019 17:01 utc | 289

@Jen #280
I would also note that your electricity system means the owners of coal, natural gas, or even oil powered electricity plants would be the new 1% - as they can literally create money.
All you've then done is change one set of bastards for another - or more likely, the same bastards will migrate to the new pole positions of power (literally).
Secondary power brokers would be the battery makers. They could charge all manner of taxes on all of society for their products, unless they're exceedingly stupid. The batteries of today are already incredibly expensive compared to generation+distribution.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 29 2019 17:02 utc | 290 the yatch club....

Greta has arrived in NYC, very tired of navigating...

Do not relax..I am watching you...

Greta Thunberg shouldn't be lining high school books?

No need, now that his father has abandoned his job as actor to be her manager....

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 29 2019 17:39 utc | 291

Trump Claims US is 'Always Going to Keep a Presence in Afghanistan'

Well, nobody had swallowed they will be leaving anyway, after seeing how they left Syria...

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 29 2019 17:57 utc | 292

Gabbard explains why she's out of the debates. Unfortunately, she's incorrect about the DNC not being able to pick whomever it wants as nominee since the most recent court decision said it has the ability to do exactly that. That issue's also discussed in the thread. That FOX's Tucker Carlson gave her a platform to speak is telling.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2019 18:57 utc | 293

@ c1ue # 291

"If your goal is to reduce everyone to pre-industrial means, why not just abolish all money period and go back to barter? It is the same result."

I'd agree going back to bartering wouldn't help, as it's still a monetary system. Why not get rid of money altogether and allow technology to begin working for mankind, rather than the other way around? A non monetary policy would also encourage unemployment, instead of discouraging it. Enough people out there who have to work to worry about production and in a sharing world less production would be needed, because there'd be much less waste.

I linked to a film above @ # 290 titled Addendum that explains this system much better than i can. But seems to me money is at the root of all our problems, why not give it the boot and get back to focusing on all of humanity, rather than just a few?

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Aug 29 2019 22:03 utc | 294

Great speech by Mohammed Zarif, Iran's Minister of Foreign Affairs, linked above by karlof1.

He takes on the need for the "Islamic world, the developing world" to accept the new paradigm that in a global world, security is no longer exclusively the province of state actors. His example is Isis, which not only destabilized regions, it also supplied policing, gathered taxes and so on within regions under its control. So non-state actors can both take away, and supply security.

But the big message begins with his example that Iran, while under attack by Iraq and the military support of the entire developed world, was capable fighting back by creating their own missiles. The example is resonant but he goes on to explain that the non-Western countries he addresses cannot purchase security or development from others, they need to cooperate, collaborate and generate those things for themselves.

Pretty good orator, speaks perfect Oxford English, and is passionate and lively. I quite enjoyed this example of statesmanship. Puts my local pols to shame.

Posted by: jonku | Aug 29 2019 22:08 utc | 295

guidoamm | Aug 29 2019 7:49 utc | 277--

Society can create its own currency for local use to keep wealth within the community from fleeing; so, your thesis needs further modification.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2019 22:26 utc | 296

jonku @298--

Thanks for your synopsis of Zarif's talk! You can see how he's trying to get other developing nations to see the merit in Russia's collective security proposal, which as I noted can be a model applied elsewhere. The idea is to combine together without needing to be under another power's "umbrella" as was the case with the many regional NATOs formed during the Cold War that were merely tools for the Outlaw US Empire's use. They're no longer needed thanks to modern weapons and other technology.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2019 22:37 utc | 297

@ karlof1 # 289

"I see it's located in Maine where the people are currently battling their dirtbag Governor, whose very presence in office says a lot about that state's polity."

Thanks for your reply, i wondered whether you'd see it so late it the thread.

I would say LePage their former governor was seemingly against his people and it's legislators and duck duck going it found mostly hits on people battling their former governor, Paul LePage and nothing on Mills (except she's 'fighting' for the folks of Maine ;). I know nothing of Janet Mills except she's apparently a democrat and that's close enough to dirtbag for me, but i'm curious, since i value your opinion, why do you single her out as such?

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Aug 29 2019 22:41 utc | 298

Ouch! I didn't realize LePage was gone! It's to him I refer.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 29 2019 22:47 utc | 299

Aye, Myself & Me @ 290:

No, I have not seen any of the Zeitgeist films. Thanks for your suggestion regarding "Addendum".

I was looking at alternate monetary and economic systems and the idea of using electricity as currency. I'm not fixated on using electricity as currency, just looking at ways how the concept might work and what adjustments we would need to make.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 30 2019 1:12 utc | 300

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