Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 16, 2019

Epstein Suicided - Thread 2

There are nearly 550 comments on the Epstein Suicided thread. A second one is thus justified.

As I did not follow the development of that case as diligently as some commentators here I have, for now, little to add.

The British Daily Mail reported that Epstein had this painting in his New York mansion.


One wonders if Bill and/or Hillary knew about it.

Please use this thread for the continuing discussion of the Epstein issue.

Posted by b on August 16, 2019 at 16:59 UTC | Permalink

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Epstien was a Mossad honey trap aimed at US polatitians ect. A
American politics have been compromised on a massive scale leading to apauling wars costing the lives of millions, wasting trillions of dollars spent on war, at Israel’s behest !
And people on this thread are in denial.
Preferring self distraction and deflecting the real debate.
This thread should be about - Israel’s influence on American politicians!!! Full stop

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 17 2019 18:57 utc | 201

We are never going to get a better chance than now for getting the real story of 9/11. Arguing over morality right now is not only pointless it wastes time/energy. Our opponents don't waste time/energy on these matters. They are also aware that we do waste time/energy on these matters and they use it to their advantage.

If you blackmailed people with underage sex and worse, wouldn't you want to make sure some other group doesn't also blackmail the people that you have blackmailed? Would that not provide an incentive to keep everything in house? E.g. buy an island or two where ANYTHING is game and everything is filmed. If these people's "needs" weren't met it would create an opportunity for them to get themselves wrapped up in someone else's operation. Don't personally agree with this, but I can see why people might do such a thing.

All kinds of bad shit went on with this crew, but all kinds of bad shit is going on all over the place all of the time. These people are responsible for 9/11 and the ensuing worldwide death, destruction and misery. The story is not about Epstein alone although Epstein does provide a a way in. Eyes on the prize...

Posted by: Zack | Aug 17 2019 19:02 utc | 202

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 17:59 utc | 193

"Nothing to get hung about."

--Strawberry a time like this...

[Why not?--Poke them hornets.]

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 17 2019 19:19 utc | 203

The those stating the the discussion of the definition of pedophile is trivial, the original context in which it came up was that the obsession with this label for BE in newspaper headlines etc. was functioning as a red herring leading readers away from the real issues of what BE and his network and handlers were actually up to.

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 17 2019 19:34 utc | 204

bevin @ 200

I think some on this board have already shown the difference between statutory rape and pedophile charge in the US. They are quite different indeed. In either case the outcome would be very different in prison.

Personally I have run off 18 year old guys trying to date my 17 year old daughter. I told them that this relationship could very well land him in prison if caught and I explained why. End of relationship and some common sense and my societies norms and laws were applied. This is not the 17th century where most would die of old age at 48 hence you would start a family early. Some lines must apply.

This happens with some regularity in the prison system. "Pedophiles" are regarded as fair game and one of the
reasons why they are is that people assume that those labelled 'pedos' have in fact sexually assaulted young children.

It is because many people in prison have families on the outside. It is an act of revenge in the minds of prisoners in the US because they have children as well. At least that is what of the many people I know who have done time tell me.

Another term would produce the same result once the jargon came into the mainstream. "He loved little young girls, he was a bubkis" does not cut it either.

In quite a few countries in the Western hemisphere a person who has sex with a young one is still lynched if caught or if word gets out in the village or community. Central and South America come to mind. In Afghanistan and some Arab societies little boys are buggered by their male superiors and that is OK.

Epstein would have done time in a kosher country club prison if convicted. He should have been locked up alone prior to trial. Leaving his cell door unlocked at all times opened him up for assassination by the regulars, no doubt. Lynched in prison, murdered by the organization or set free and I highly doubt that, it is all the same.

This whole discussion is bukis, enough already.

Posted by: dltravers | Aug 17 2019 19:38 utc | 205

Posted by: Bruce | Aug 17 2019 18:15 utc | 196
"He is quite dead."
I agree. He passed his use-by date. Dead men tell no tales.
Epstein made the wrong choice. Should he not have told that his cellmate tried to strangle him then he would still be alive in suicide watch. Or perhaps not, he may have been suicided anyway or given a heart attack instead. Classic dilemma.

Luckily nobody believes it was just plain suicide, not even the MSM it seems. Did Trump and Barr have a hand in al of this? Is this what he meant with "draining the swamp"? I am going to enjoy when heads start rolling. [/wishfullthinking]

Posted by: Joost | Aug 17 2019 19:43 utc | 206

If it were a hit or even suicide, they would not have had to disable the video.
This is not a job for FBI.
Does not matter if was CIA or Mossad - pretty much same thing at this point.
As Syrin girld alludes - at this point, the point is:
This is our government.
This is our system of justice.
Hopefully at least this will have repercussions for Victoria Secret.
Oh yeah and Syrian girl points out Billy Barrs dad had connention with Epstein - hired him as proffessor though he had no degree.

Posted by: Jared | Aug 17 2019 19:46 utc | 207

"Commentators are (unwittingly or wittingly) minimising Epstein crimes. Please do not continue this line of discussion. What Epstein did was morally and legally wrong, a whitewashing process has begun, don't be part of it.'

Au contraire. Those who obsess about BE's sexual crimes are unwittingly following the false trail laid by the media to limit the discussion to those crimes it has labeled "pedophilia." For this reason the discussion as to whether "pedophile" is an appropriate title for his activities is most relevant. Because it inflames the minds and moral indignation of readers who then more prone to not to delve deeper. Of course that does not apply to MoA readers, but it does apply to many consumers of the MSM, which was the *original point.* But many MoA readers to seem to falling for that bait in castigating those who brought up this issue as not caring about his victims. I do care about his victims. But I don't think all the victims of BE et al. are young women (nor of course the male players). Whatever the aims of BE's networks and his handlers were/are, there are many victims and we probably are all victims, if we just knew what this influence/intelligence/blackmail web was designed to accomplish on the level of our nation's and other nations' policies in a number of areas.

Why aren't we seeing headlines such as "Epstein's Blackmail Ring an Intelligence Operation?"; "Intelligence Asset Epstein Commits Suicide"; "Blackmailer Epstein Dies Unexpectedly"; etc.? BEcause TPTB want the public to think of BE as a pedo. Period. That's all there is to it, folks. He deserved to die. Good riddance to the perv. So don't worry about the totally unbelievable putative circumstances of his death.

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 17 2019 19:49 utc | 208

Of course there was reason not to kill Epstein - dead mean have no fear of telling everything.
It is not possible that he did not have insurance. And he would know how to make it secure.
I am guessing the live video would be most embarassin and recordings might be seen as national security issue.

Posted by: Jared | Aug 17 2019 19:53 utc | 209

Bevin 200
Thanks for explaining this rhetorical tactical use of the pedo label to those here who so far have failed to grasp this basic point.

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 17 2019 19:54 utc | 210

@ Really?? | Aug 17 2019 19:49 utc | 209

Why is it that we have to expend so much effort here on this very discussion to just [squirrel!] keep it on [squirrel!] track when pe- [squirrel!] -ople should be [squirrel!] smarter on MoA than the- [squirrel!] -...


Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 17 2019 20:00 utc | 211

Considering Monica was a Israeli honey trap and Epstein was Mossad it quite the inside joke for Epstein to have Clinton pointing at him in the blue dress

Posted by: emma peele | Aug 17 2019 20:01 utc | 212

Hey, its official move on. We have seen way bigger official carpet bagging than this and nothing has changed.

Posted by: steve | Aug 17 2019 20:02 utc | 213

To me, this was the most insightful take on Epstein’s death:

Posted by: Mal Feasant | Aug 17 2019 20:09 utc | 214

"Why is it that we have to expend so much effort here on this very discussion to just [squirrel!] keep it on [squirrel!] track when pe- [squirrel!] -ople should be [squirrel!] smarter on MoA than the- [squirrel!] -..."

Thanks for this very much needed tone policing!!

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 17 2019 20:10 utc | 215

@ Really?? | Aug 17 2019 20:10 utc | 216

I wasn't intending an attempt at tone policing. I was merely illustrating (coincident with your point) that we have addressed the distractive nature of the word repetitively and persistently since about post 50-ish or so and we have at this point iterated and reiterated and re-reiterated (nobody bite my head off for being re-redunant) the same point that you are right now still trying to make, many, many times already. And the distractors just distract again. At this rate, we'll be at 550 posts with Epstein Part II and you or I or someone else will STILL be trying to say what you are saying now--the same that we've been saying for nearly 200 posts now. Maybe it's time to try another way to explain it cause doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...well, you know...

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 17 2019 20:32 utc | 216

Anacharsis - ironically, Strawberry Field was a Liverpool home for orphaned girls upon whose grounds John Lennon played as a child.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 20:36 utc | 217

@jared 210 "It is not possible that he did not have insurance."
I think there was no insurance or dead man switch. Epstein was a pimping pedo guy, not a nerd like Assange. He chose to live fast and die young. I bet he always knew and accepted the fact he would expire at some point in time. He sold his soul to the devil and got everything he could possibly dream of in return. He likely never posessed any of de recordings, his handlers dealt with that, whoever they are. They would have made sure that he did not get any life insurance. Ep was just the guy who worked for them - expendable.

Posted by: Joost | Aug 17 2019 20:38 utc | 218

Have started to wonder if Epstein could have come back fully knowing what was going to happen to him. Without Epstein we would probably know very little about any of this. His hypothesized dead man's switch could have been triggered before even coming back to the US. This whole story, Epstein's death, and where it eventually leads could be his purposeful doing. Epstein was in a perfect place to destroy this entire network.

When does the MSM go to great lengths to vilify people? Usually when they are not going along with the plan. The Epstein saga has opened up a crack in near perfect armor to possibly get at the true 9/11 story.

Posted by: Zack | Aug 17 2019 20:46 utc | 219

It seems to me the death of Epstein doesn't end anything. It only prevents him from telling who he worked for (presumably Mossad but possibly a rogue CIA op, or both). I assume they now have everything he collected.

Posted by: mrm | Aug 17 2019 21:12 utc | 220

DH Travers @ 207:

I should think that in most prisons in Western countries, not only in the US or where you live, the reason that prisoners convicted of paedophilia rate low in the prisoner hierarchy is that many prisoners themselves have been victims of paedophilia, and repeated paedophilia at that. For some of these prisoners, this victmisation may be the foundation for their later criminal behaviours that led to their imprisonment.

There is one case I know of here in Australia where an actor convicted of sexual abuse of underage girls (who had been child actors in a 1980s TV sereies he appeared regularly in) has to be held in a maximum security prison in Goulburn for his own safety ... from the prisoners. The prisoners are fully aware of what he did and despise him

Posted by: Jen | Aug 17 2019 21:13 utc | 221

"Sorry Frances. It doesn't fit.

CLAIM: Dr. Michael Baden, 85, the pathologist who investigated the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr., performed Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy."
Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 15:42 utc | 170

Yes "it" most certainly does. Your point is tangential to my premise of him being whisked out of the building and does not in any way negate what I said. I said he was the "observing coroner", NOT the performing coroner. And that point was an aside. My post was about a 4Chan post that supports the suspicion that he was taken out of the prison.

Posted by: frances | Aug 17 2019 21:23 utc | 222

I'm surprised nobody has posted the fact that Epstein's lawyers dispute the autopsy and cause of death verdict:

"Jeffrey Epstein's lawyers have announced that they are planning to carry out an independent investigation into the death of the multi-millionaire, accused of sex-trafficking, and demand video footage from the prison. According to his legal team, they are 'not satisfied with the conclusions of the medical examiner' that he killed himself in his cell in New York's Metropolitan Correctional Centre."

That would mean that the unidentified person who claimed the body is connected with the legal team. There's a bit more in the article, screaming for the CTV video being the most important.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2019 21:29 utc | 223

"Even a billionaire would have difficulty escaping from a prison like MCC. But with CIA or Mossad's help, it's possible.It's easy to quell such speculation: PRODUCE THE BODY."
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 17:49 utc | 191


Posted by: frances | Aug 17 2019 21:30 utc | 224

"no operatives don't get full support, witness valerie plame. depends on whether they are useful or not. epstein was a danger, and they didn't want him talking. they didn't want osama bin ladin talking either, which is why the seal team whacked him, then threw the body in the ocean with some bullshit about respect for traditions."
Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 17 2019 18:49 utc | 202

Valerie was honest, that was why she was outed. As for Osama, where have you been, he had been dead for years when those Seals showed up and whacked some poor farmer.
From Corbett Report:
In July of 2001, Osama Bin Laden was flown to the American Hospital in Dubai for kidney treatment. According to French intelligence sources, he was there met by the local CIA attache. When the agent bragged about his encounter to friends later, he was promptly recalled to Washington.

On the eve of September 11, Osama Bin Laden was staying in a Pakistani military hospital under the watchful eye of Pakistan’s ISI, the Pakistani equivalent of the CIA with deep ties to the American intelligence community.

In October 2001, Bin Laden appeared in a videotape wearing army fatigues and Islamic headdress, looking visibly pale and gaunt. In December of 2001, another videotape was released, this time showing a seriously ill Bin Laden who was seemingly unable to move his left arm.

Then on December 26, 2001, Fox News reported on a Pakistan Observer story that the Afghan Taliban had officially pronounced Osama Bin Laden dead earlier that month.

Posted by: frances | Aug 17 2019 21:39 utc | 225


Tone policing means, among other things, intervening to shut down a discussion because the tone policeman/woman has decided it has gone on long enough. Generally things peter out of their own accord without the policing.

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 17 2019 22:00 utc | 226

@ Really?? | Aug 17 2019 22:00 utc | 228

I'm sorry for the effect my comment had on your intention. My self-perceived intention was not to shut the discussion nor your statement down, but rather to try something different, since the methodology seemed (to me) to be ineffective for a distance of time so far. Perhaps I grew too frustrated with the sense of non-progression I perceived. I acknowledge it is not my call on how long a discussion (or attempt at discussion) lasts. I still desire to see the importance of the points we were trying to emphasize outlast the distractions of sensationalism which obscure the actual significance of this entire event. I believe we have the same goal.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 17 2019 22:19 utc | 227


Way back in 2014, whos name I cant recall, who used the SGT Report comment section to test the water for blowing the lid off 'secret islands' with underground bunkers containing slave children for use by the global elite.

At the time many laughed, or simply ignored this guy.

The whistleblower said that secret island bunkers were used by the global elite to traffic, store, exchange or share thier sex slaves, and also store thier stolen treasures.

Again most people laughed.

Also disclosed were private islands frequented by 'leaders' and 'power brokers' who shared thier best slaves and exchanged stolen treasure.

Again people laughed or dismissed it all.

Well, since 2014 several British Mid Atlantic and South Atlantic islands were mentioned even in the MSN (including St Helena which has been proven to be a paedo distribution hub) as being linked to the British Royal family and Sir Jimmy Saville (a British Epstein type fixer).

Now we have Epstein island even in the MSN, and again leaders and the British Royal Family (Prince Andrew) have been linked, as the whistleblower revealed back in 2014, but was ignored.

All of this 'Epstein Island' stuff could have been blown up in 2014 if people had invited the whistleblower on to talk. Instead they laughed and the whistleblower vanished and has not been heard of since 2014 (likely suicided somewhere I would guess).

Strange how people laugh at things they dont understand.

If I can remember the whistleblowers name I will leave another comment so you can go see if any traces are still on the net, especially regarding the bigger mid-atlantic and south-atlantic islands with British and US bases storing hundred of children - all as mentioned by the whistleblower back in 2014.

Posted by: Capt. Abdul Hammadi | Aug 17 2019 22:32 utc | 228

Jackrabbit @198

Most serendipitous that you replied directly to my comment. I thought I had noticed something along the lines of what you referenced, but I had not bothered to run it down. I searched the quote you offered - "Epstein, appearing before the judge in a navy smock and brown T-shirt, appeared to have no visible reaction to the decision ordering him remanded to pre-trial detention. He was led off by marshals without speaking to his attorneys." It shows up in MSM in several places. No reference is made to who might have made this observation. And another reference shows up elsewhere which indicates just the opposite: "Jeffrey Epstein, found in a fetal position with marks on his neck inside a Manhattan prison cell Wednesday, appeared shaken last week when a federal judge shot down his bid for release on bail, a source told the New York Daily News on Thursday." It too is repeated in several places. That these two reports would disagree entirely on this point is intriguing.
As far as compromised intelligence agents goes, I was told in no uncertain terms by the CIA recruiter who came to our campus job fair in 1980 that if I were an agent and were compromised, they would not acknowledge my existence. She said if I were not entirely comfortable with that, I should not apply. Epstein had nothing to offer but contacts, compromising material regarding one or more important people of interest, and a setup to obtain more of same. Once compromised, he had nothing to offer of any value to his former associates. It would take a lot more resources, effort, and assumption of risk to get him out alive than to kill him, and with no return for the investment. Killing him was obviously a bit of trouble to arrange.
Karlof1 @225 posted a link indicating Epstein's team is investigating and demanding the closed circuit video footage, disputing the conclusions of the autopsy. This is a big well connected DC based firm who lost a lot of billable hours to Epstein's demise. They won't waste time with body double theories unless there's something there, so if they don't go that route at all, they are satisfied Epstein is dead. Epstein is dead, but the story is not.

Posted by: Bruce | Aug 17 2019 22:59 utc | 229

Frances - Sigh. You said

"It fits. I believe they swapped him out for a corpse, where is he? My guess Israel, waiting for the plastic surgeon and his team to get started.

Another indication this is the real story; the observing coroner is the same fellow who officiated at JFK's and MLK's autopsy. They are laughing at us."

You, jackrabbit, ADKC, et al must be smoking some pretty good dope is all I can say...

First, Baden didnt officiate either JFK's or MLK's autopsy. That's urban myth. Get your facts straight but then of course you can't have a conspiracy theory in the first place if you stay factual and logical. Second, Baden was invited to observe the autopsy not by the deep state but by Epstein's own defense lawyers. And the lawyers aren't proclaiming Epstein was body switched as you are, they're saying he didn't commit suicide. This must be an opinion they formed partially at least on Baden's observations at autopsy.

So, following your body switching theory this would mean Baden and the Epstein lawyers are also now party to this grand conspiracy for if Epstein's was not the body autopsied then the lawyers are lying and they plus Baden would have powerful reason to divulge the fact that Epstein was not in fact the corpse autopsied publicly asap in order to protect themselves.

If they have first hand knowledge Epstein was not autopsied then they too will need to be murdered, the coroner, the police, EMT, the ER doctors, everyone who knows this disturbing "truth".

It would be a lot simpler to just murder Epstein to silence him, rather than allow him to walk and then be forced to kill everyone else involved to force their silence....and of course once Epstein's walked what guarantee is there he will remain silent forever? None.

So, yes, your theory is nonsense and your so-called "tangential" statement wrt Baden doesn't fit.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 23:10 utc | 230

Baden seems more likely to work against the deep state than for it.

In the Simpson case, Baden offered testimony that conflicted, at times sharply, with the county coroner’s views on the 1994 killings of the football star-turned-actor’s wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend Ronald Goldman. Simpson was acquitted of murder after a televised trial that riveted the nation. A civil court jury later found him liable for wrongful death and ordered him to pay $33.5 million after a trial at which Baden also testified.

More recently, Baden performed an independent autopsy on Eric Garner, an unarmed black man killed in an encounter with New York police weeks before Brown’s death. The two killings spurred protests and helped catalyze the Black Lives Matter movement.


He has said he sees himself as “a witness to the dead.”

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 23:22 utc | 231

@ Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 17 2019 21:29 utc | 225

His lawyers complaining adds credibility.
As pointed out by another comment, had he been dead at seen he would not have been carted to hospital there would have been an investigation at scene.

Posted by: Jared | Aug 17 2019 23:29 utc | 232

Thank you very much Thoma Minnehan #182

Well worth a read if you have the time:

That certainly was time well spent: brief and to the point. I must read more of Edward Curtin.

My primary thought after reading that was that no country should permit an embassy from any of the five eye collaborators or Israel. Perhaps a bare bones strictly focused trade office at the very most.

Take note all countries that have had enough of the evil scheming and 'color revolution' machinations of the evil empire.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 17 2019 23:32 utc | 233

@211 Jared "It is not possible that he did not have insurance."

Sure. But what if he was mistaken in who he entrusted that insurance to?

"And he would know how to make it secure."

How, exactly?

If we assume that he worked for Mossad then he would have had handlers (Hello, Ghislaine!).

Those handlers had both the means and the motives to keep tabs on whatever "insurance" he might have thought to set up independent of them.

After all, part of the job of handling an intel asset is to make sure he can't go rogue on them.

Once he was in custody then the FBI and the Israelis between them could have scooped up all of his "insurance", and once there was confidence in that process then, well, "suicide".

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 18 2019 2:39 utc | 234

All of these theories about faked suicides, swapped-out-corpses, and Epstein sipping Champaign on a Tel Aviv beachfront are just too ludicrous for words.

Look, if Mossad wanted to "retire" him then there was not the slightest need for such theatrics.
Simply have him go to Pedo Island, have him take his boat out for a solo-sail around the island, and then report that he is missing.

The yacht can then be found with a gun on the deck and blood down the side of the hull, and everyone can claim that - of course! - he propped himself up on the side the boat and then shot himself. The body then falls into the water, never to be seen again.

It is within the means of a billionaire to stage such a "death", and if he is found in Tel Aviv in a year or so then the Israelis can plausibly claim that They Are Just As Shocked As Anyone Else that Epstein is still alive.

But this?

Voluntarily putting yourself into US custody, then faking your suicide in a US high security prison, procuring a dead body ringer for the autopsy, then spiriting yourself out of the USA to Israel?


That is orders of magnitude more difficult, and if he is then discovered in a year or so cavorting around Tel Aviv then it would be mighty difficult for the Israelis to claim that they are shocked, shocked I tell you! that he is still alive.

The smart money is on this: Epstein was running a honey-pot for Mossad, and once it looked like Epstein is not going to be able to avoid a trial then Mossad had to cut their losses and snuff the dude.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 18 2019 2:55 utc | 235

karlof1 | Aug 17 2019 21:29 utc | 225: Epstein's lawyers promise independent probe

Why not describes what they disagree with instead of simply making promises? Presumably they are privy to almost all info from the medical examiner, MCC, NYPD, FDNY, and other government agencies.

AFAIK, the coroner's finding of SUICIDE conveniently allowed the body to be released. What will happen to the body now? If Epstein's lawyers are serious about an investigation they will preserve the body for future examination. I doubt they will do so.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 3:33 utc | 236

Yeah, Right @237--

Must agree with the general lines of your Occam's razor hypothesis. The plot has thickened with his lawyers objections. And just where are all those CTV vids?

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 18 2019 3:36 utc | 237

Yeah, Right @236,237:

You make some good points. However ...

"Bringing Epstein to justice" was likely a PR exercise that was suppose to erase the shame of the sweetheart deal provided to Epstein in 2008.

And it also conveniently allowed for a limited release of information that allowed Trump, Clinton, and Dershowitz to spin that info to their benefit:

Trump: we learn that a single victim said he had no interest in her;

Clinton: there is no further damaging info (a "win" for the Clinton camp);

Dershowitz: an email by a single victim says "there no evidence" that he's a pedo (but also says that its suspected that he is).

There were scores of girls that were abused. Maybe other girls might have a different story to tell about Trump, Clinton, or Dershowitz.

Why not PRODUCE THE BODY and dispel speculation of the outlandish theory that he was "switched out"?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 3:45 utc | 238

what do you mean "produce the body". we'll want to see some photos at some point, but there is no evidence they are hiding the body. it's not at the bottom of an ocean, it's in the morgue.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 18 2019 4:02 utc | 239

if epstein gets cremated you'll have a viable theory, but that hasn't happened yet. meanwhile, the people that want to relitigate the meaning of pedophilia, rather than discuss the murder, seem to have gone to bed.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 18 2019 4:04 utc | 240

donkeytale @: Baden didnt officiate either JFK's or MLK's autopsy.

"Magic-Bullet" Michael Baden to Lead Epstein Autopsy-What Could Go Wrong?

As chairman of the investigation into the JFK assassination, Baden bolstered the official story that Kennedy was killed by a single bullet, also known as the “magic bullet” theory.. This is the theory that states that one bullet passed through JFK changed directions 4 times, changed angles 5 times, shattered 4 inches of Gov Connelly's fifth rib, exited the rib cage and shattered the Governor's radius bone and embedded in his thigh. Then the bullet fell out of Connelly's leg on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital and it appeared as a pristine, never fired bullet.

[Baden also ignored disturbing facts like:] The man charged with the collecting, organizing and preserving of the photographic evidence, Lt. William Pitzer, was assassinated... The two appointed physicians that conducted the autopsy had never done a gun shot autopsy before ... when the autopsy was complete, the original notes were burned... [And] JFK's brain went missing ...

But there have been other controversies:

In 1979, after just 11-months as the chief medical examiner of New York Mayor Ed Koch fired Baden. He claimed that the hot-shot examiner had lost evidence and worked poorly with prosecutors.

A few years later, Baden was fired again, when he worked as the deputy medical examiner in Suffolk County on Long Island, according to the Los Angeles Times. An article in Oui Magazine quoted him giving advice for getting away with “high tech murder.”

In 2007, Baden was again in the news for questionable conduct, this time ... in the Phil Spector murder trial. He had a fresh theory of how Spector's alleged victim had died, one that provided room for the defense to explain some blood on Spector’s jacket. During cross examination, the prosecutor asked Baden if he had any conflict of interest in this case.

“None that I can think of,” he said, according to the Los Angeles Times. Moments later it was revealed his wife was one of Spector’s main attorneys.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 4:38 utc | 241

@239 "And just where are all those CTV vids?"

That points more to murder than it does to a switcheroo.

After all, he could have very theatrically "hung" himself before the CTV cameras, and then the switch could have taken place in the ambulance or at any other time between "suicide" and "autopsy".

But if he didn't willingly slip the knot around his neck then that would be captured on camera. Hence the security camera being, umm, "non-functional".

By the way, has there been a definitive statement regarding the lack of camera footage?
Were they broken?
Were they working but not recording?
Were they recording but, oops, I hit the delete button?
Were they oh-so-conveniently "under maintenance" (though who "maintains" equipment in the wee small hours?)

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 18 2019 5:42 utc | 242

Why are you guys all concentrating on the sex and forgetting the main point? Nothing to do with sex. This is about blackmail of high-level government officials by the Israel spy agency, period.

Let's not let them mislead everyone. Repeat: sex scandals is for morons. This is a spy and blackmail story.

Posted by: Piero Colombo | Aug 18 2019 6:32 utc | 243

pretzelattack @ 202

Sorry pretzelattack, Osama Bin Laden died of a lung complication due to kidney failure in 2001, reported in both The NYT and the Pakistan Observer.

Posted by: RF | Aug 18 2019 6:49 utc | 244

To believe Epstein was murdered or committed suicide, leaves a mighty big question unanswered. Why did he come back to the US? He had the means and the money to disappear, knew he would be arrested in the US, and was looking at life in prison. If any of you were facing the same circumstances, would you come back? I wouldn't, and I doubt anyone else would either.

Posted by: RF | Aug 18 2019 7:00 utc | 245

re Epstein and focus on pedo aspect...may be deliberate mis-direction. here's George Webb latest youtube title:

August 17th, 2017. Epstein and Wexner Ran Drugs From 1974, Secord Open The Pharm Gate in 1961. Abt 7 minutes

Posted by: chu teh | Aug 18 2019 7:09 utc | 246

Posted by: chu teh | Aug 18 2019 7:09 utc | 248

That is another misdirection.

James Baker: Comey And I Worried About Creating Any J. Edgar Hoover Impression With Steele Dossier

Who was this FBI director Edgar J. Hoover?

J Edgar Hoover led the FBI for 50 years and was given a state funeral by a grateful nation. But the man pledged to protect America from the evils of organised crime and political subversion was a secret homosexual, probably blackmailed by the Mob. In turn, he kept damaging files on those in Washington who might one day threaten his power .... October 1971, the Oval Office of the White House

The President of the United States, his Attorney-General and key advisers are wrestling with an intractable problem. The problem is an old man, a man of whom the Chief of State is afraid.

Richard Nixon: For a lot of reasons he oughta resign . . . He should get the hell out of there . . . Now it may be, which I kind of doubt . . . maybe I could just call him and talk him into resigning . . . There are some problems. If he does go he's got to go of his own volition . . . that's why we're in a hell of a problem . . . I think he'll stay until he's a hundred years old.

John Mitchell: He'll stay until he's buried there. Immortality . . .

Richard Nixon: I think we've got to avoid the situation where he can leave with a blast . . . We may have on our hands here a man who will pull down the temple with him, including me . . . It's going to be a problem.

According to German Wikipedia Kosher Nostra Member Lewis Solon Rosenstiel was an intimate friend of the FBI director J. Edgar Hoover. Hoover bet with Meyer Lansky's bookies, Rosenstiel paid for the bets, when Hoover won, their lawyer Roy Cohn gave him the profit.

Who was this guy John Mitchell mentioned above?

Before Bernie Madoff, there was Hoffenberg, who in 1985 pleaded guilty to cheating investors out of $460 million — at the time, the largest Ponzi scheme ever. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison and, after his release in 2013, began sounding the alarm on Epstein, who had worked at Hoffenberg’s Towers Financial Corporation after leaving Bear Stearns. He claimed that Epstein had been his co-conspirator in the scheme and that Epstein’s fortune was built on Towers Financial’s fraud. “He was great at moving money illegally,” Hoffenberg says. “He was the deeper architect to getting things accomplished.” Hoffenberg claims he was introduced to Epstein by Douglas Leese, a mysterious British arms dealer, and that he paid Epstein $25,000 a month as Towers Financial began making risky plays to take over companies like Pan American World Airways and Emery Air Freight. Advisers on the Pan Am deal included Richard Nixon’s attorney general John Mitchell, Nixon’s brother Edward, and John Lehman, a former secretary of the Navy. The move fell apart after the Lockerbie bombing, and when Towers Financial later went belly-up, Hoffenberg says, the two of them engineered a Ponzi scheme to fill the hole.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2019 8:37 utc | 247

So the people surrounding Edgar J. Hoover and Nixon, Roy Cohn, John Mitchell surround Jeffrey Epstein, Trump and Bill Clinton.
My guess is that Trump can be blackmailed, but the kompromat is not by Russia.
The FBI tried to get rid of Trump via the Steele dossier - and failed - they now possess Jeffrey Epstein's kompromat.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2019 8:49 utc | 248

Spot on! I was looking at this article yesterday about Hoffenberg. Vicky Ward quoted him several times in her recent pieces and I was wondering how would someone accept to stay 20 years in jail unless he knows that the powers he is facing are far too strong, especially if he wants to remain alive.
Of course, one wonders why none of the MSM has been looking into the Hoffenberg direction for their papers on Epstein bio.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2019 8:52 utc | 249

@247 RF "Why did he come back to the US?"

He had already gamed the system once, nobody disputes that.
He probably believed that he could game it a second time.

He was wrong, but he didn't know that he was wrong until he had actually stepped foot on American soil.

Why is it so hard to comprehend that Epstein wasn't omniscient>

He read the situation wrong, and as a result his freedom was forfeit.
At which point More Powerful People Than Him decided that it was time to cut their losses.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 18 2019 10:39 utc | 250

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2019 8:52 utc | 251

The interesting thing is that Bill Clinton dismissed the FBI director to replace him with his guy same as Trump did.
The FBI director under whom the 2008 sweet deal was done was Robert Mueller and the president was Bush.
Trump's estate business used to be in New York and New York's politicians have been mostly Democrat for a long time.
If Trump was involved in New York corruption he was on the paying side. Epstein kompromat being in possession of the FBI will silence New York Democrats for quite a while (and this is the Wall-Street, Clinton/Obama/Biden faction I guess)

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2019 11:21 utc | 251

Andrew at Epstein's after he had been convicted.
Epstein with a girl who obviously is not 18 but just like he likes them.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2019 11:59 utc | 252

"relitigate the meaning of pedophilia, rather than discuss the murder, seem to have gone to bed."

Uh, no. They made their point---specifically, Bevin clarified the point---regarding the relationship between brandishing the p-word, and the p-word only, and the other issues in the Epstein case, such as murder. Enjoy your morning Joe!

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 18 2019 12:39 utc | 253

All this talk about pedo this, pedo that- I can guarantee that quite a few folks writing here on the topic had someone in their family whose mom was married at ages 14-16, F A C T.
It was quite common just a few decades ago in the U.S.A. That age was prime marrying age probably due to economic reasons in some strata of the society of the time.

Off topic, I am sick as Hell of hearing about A D U L T children as well. Grow up and come out of the basements and move into the real world.

Posted by: morongobill | Aug 18 2019 14:02 utc | 254

JR @ 243

Baden did not officiate the JFK autopsy nor did he officiate the Epstein autopsy. He was brought in to observe at the request of Epstein's lawyers. Period. It would be the biggest story in the world for Baden to come out of the morgue stating "That wasn't Epstein's body." He would be more feted than even he was during the OJ trial and he would be protecting himself for having this knowledge by so doing because he will be a target of the same forces who murdered Epstein to shut him up, whether he speaks up or not. Your theory has more holes than a slice of Swiss Cheese. Not that that's unusual for your theories.

And Baden is controversial? Yo, get outta town. He testifies in legal hearings for either the defense or the prosecution. You can't play in this profession unless you have a proven record of working for both sides. This is a requirement to be an "expert witness." And let's not even get into the fact forensic science is largely baloneyistic pseudo science in the first place.

You should post this stuff at the National Enquirer not MoA. Your schtick is supermarket tabloid filler for reactionary moms.

And a wider audience too.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 14:47 utc | 255

The CCTV video only covers the hallways not inside the cells. This has been repeated over and over. The cells were fully enclosed with a door entrance. Not easy to look inside. The jailers would ask for a verbal response when making the rounds every 15-30 minutes if they had done so and with no response would be required to enter the cell to ascertain the prisoner's condition.

And of course video will resolve exactly nothing since no matter what the video indicated there would be another 800 comments following shortly to explain how the video was faked.

Let's face it: Epstein is as alive today as Elvis...

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 14:58 utc | 256

donkeytale @257

That's true, he didn't officiate. But his involvement is not a positive sign.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 14:58 utc | 257

donkeytale @258:CCTV video only covers the hallways not inside the cells... video will resolve exactly nothing.

Wrong. The video would show if someone went into Epstein's cell that night. If no one went to his cell, then we can rule out murder.

If we could rule out murder, and the "suicide" makes no sense then ... the 'switch' is much more likely.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 15:07 utc | 258

frances 168, imho the 4chan post is fiction. The author confessed (? not sure..) - for the rest, yes, it is very suspicious that two and only two narratives are accepted - suicide / murder.

The damage done to the neck, broken bones, etc. of X are the core alleged facts, only the agency of direct cause is in doubt. I have even seen an intermediary suggested: X was allowed / was helped along / to kill himself (guards made absent, presumably some rope offered, who knows, idk.) Which makes no sense at all in a case of 'hanging' because an overdose is cheap and easy.

Baden - ‘senior’ pathologist of dodgy repute (i have read) - was chosen by Epstein’s lawyers to invigilate the autopsy, so to speak. If one wanted medical expert reassurance and checking of a NY state autopsy, to be sure to gather every fact, pic, secure the ‘tape’ of descriptive speech during, the samples taken and the subsequent forensics (drugged? heart disease? brain insults?) one would hire some highly qualified keen young chap/esse. So, that is very suspicious.

Then, where is the body, who claimed it (“an associate”), where is the death certificate, who identified the body (believe this to be a ritual in NY), one article I read said the brother Mark, etc.

Much of the ambiguities and no-info or dopey silence can be attributed to the comprehensible self-protective reactions in the US, where many refuse to say anything, invoking officialdom, hierarchy, confidentiality laws, professional agreements … ppl cover up with excuses to keep their jobs, status. The knee-jerk response in case of ignorance is say nothing do nothing agree with the top dogs nothing else stop.

But now Epstein’s lawyers are challenging the autopsy (karloff 225)…the same lawyers, others? Vicious fighting behind the scenes, as i wrote before, perhaps now only for dollaris (claims on his estate.)

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 18 2019 15:11 utc | 259

What is in the psychology of people needing to believe that Epstein somehow escaped and remains alive?

Isn't the very real possibility he was murdered or even if he was allowed to commit suicide through benign neglect enough to instigate protests against the PTB?

No, and that is the problem...ignoring the very real, very logical possibilities while continually insisting on this fantasy of Count Dracula Epstein allows people to escape through their fantasies from any responsibility to challenge the PTB...

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 15:13 utc | 260

Victims have said that Epstein had a distinctively shaped penis. And the victim's may have dna evidence from semen.

Having each given him multiple naked massages, they know his body better than his brother (whose "identification" is tainted by his personal interest). They will know moles, discolorations, etc on his back, butt, legs, etc.


Let the victims identify him and take dna samples for testing.

It's in the public interest.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 15:15 utc | 261

JR, heresay is not proof of anything.

Video of jailers going into his cell alone won't prove Epstein's murder unless they are filmed in the act of comitting murder.

"we checked on him and he was fine at that point." The jailers will simply use it as proof they were doing their jobs.

How do you know it was his cell? How do yu know it was video from the same day? Date stamps can easily be manipulated.

The convolution will never end simply because of a video of people entering a cell.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 15:19 utc | 262

imo | 538 (on the other thread)

That’s some phenomenal “Spürsinn” that you have! Well spotted, thanks for sharing this!

G. Maxwell: “A comforting read after a personal tragedy. A good friend of mine died recently under very tragic circumstances.”

Assuming that this is genuinely her take on the book, it means that Maxwell thinks it was suicide. Tragedy, tragic circumstances – that’s code for suicide.

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Aug 18 2019 15:20 utc | 263

donkeytale @: What is in the psychology of people that ..."

One might well ask the same of those that seek to avoid the truth

What is in the psychology of people that

... want to cover the truth? Sociopathology;

... don't want to get the truth? Stockholm Syndrome.

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>

It's EASY to rule out the possibility of an escape via "switching out" Epstein: PRODUCE THE BODY. Let the victims identify him.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 15:23 utc | 264

@pretzelattack #201
I've never said that there is no way the US or Israel could have assassinated Epstein.
However, that is very different than assuming any of the following:
1) That he was assassinated
2) That it was a nation-state
While truth is often stranger than fiction, it is still useful to actually objectively look at the situation. Making assumptions up front isn't objectivity.
I would also point out Goodenough’s Paradox of Conspiracies: the larger or more powerful an alleged conspiracy, the less need they have for conspiring.
If we're talking about ex-Presidents, UK royalty, billionaires, Mossad, the CIA and more - why bother with such clumsy conspiracy maneuvering?

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 18 2019 15:33 utc | 265

Noirette -

Yes, anyone quoting 4chan probably should be automatically disqualified. Wait until Infowars lifts it from 4chan first then use it. Much more credible.

Yes, the brother is still alive, although you wouldn't know that from following certain commenters on this blog who have insisted Epstein has no living relatives.

Yes, Baden was hired by Epstein's defense lawyers to observe the autopsy. The broken neck bones can be argued one way or other. Autopsy science will never definitily conclude either murder or suicide but it makes sense for the legal team to push for murder. It makes sense for MoA commenters to push for murder. But "Epsetin is alive" makes no sense to anybody.

Yes, complete public release of pictures and all evidence would seemingly help however no matter what is released or when (much JFK evidence was released, the official verdict was challenged by the Church Committee, and yet....crickets from the so-called revolutionary left) this will make no difference to believers on either side. And nothing remotely useful politically will result.

There is a great deal of privacy law in the US that will hinder if not prevent the easy release of the Epstein death information...and again what will this prove? Only that certicates, pictures, documents can be easily faked.

Your most egregious logical blunder (as well as an illustration of your "ageism" lol) is that somehow it's very suspicious his lawyers hired Baden while if they had hired a younger less famous pathologist this would be less suspicious. Huh? Can you explain that one to me?

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 15:43 utc | 266

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 23:10 utc | 232

So your rebuttal of the premise that Epstein was been spirited out of the jail as suggested by a number of irregularities is that his lawyer is still alive?? Pretty weak argument IMO.

And as to the fellow who was the observing coroner the fact that the lawyer wanted him there is irrelevant, he was there to confirm cause of death, not to IDENTIFY THE BODY of a guy he had never seen in his life.

Posted by: frances | Aug 18 2019 15:55 utc | 267

donkeytale @: Baden didnt officiate either JFK's or MLK's autopsy.

"Magic-Bullet" Michael Baden to Lead Epstein Autopsy-What Could Go Wrong?
As chairman of the investigation into the JFK assassination, Baden bolstered the official story that Kennedy was killed by a single bullet, also known as the “magic bullet” theory."
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 4:38 utc | 243

So he did "participate" in the JFK autopsy, thank you for posting that.

Posted by: frances | Aug 18 2019 16:05 utc | 268

frances @270: So he did "participate" in the JFK autopsy

Just to be clear, he was chairman of the Congressional investigation into the 1960's assassinations. That investigation was done in the 1970's.

As I noted in my comment @243, Baden accepted the "magic bullet" theory and overlooked the many strange happenings including an botched autopsy by unqualified professionals, a suspicious suicide, and disappearing evidence - especially JFK's brain.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 16:25 utc | 269

JR - the body will not be produced for a public showing unless the family intends an open casket funeral. The body has already been identified by an "unnamed associate." Allowing the victims to view the body will prove what? Do you mean anyone who states she was abused by Epstein? Maybe a committee of 4-5 chosen at random from his proven victims based on his earlier conviction? Or do we allow anyone who has made a public comment? Guaranteed, some will claim the body is Epstein some will claim not. Lol

Anyway you are simply being disingenuous as you know pictures of the corpse won't be shown to the public. Epstein has a right to privacy even in death. The pictures of the slain in the OJ trial were not produced for public consumption either. They were shown to the jury, as I assume Epstein's will be shown to the jury too should there ever be an Epstein murder trial.

Maybe someone will leak photo evidence at some point but what will that prove? Photo evidence can easily be doctored. We've already been down that path with the photos of Epstein entering the hospital not to mention the Skripal case, most all video evidence related to Bellingcat, etc. Virtually all visual evidence that runs against our beliefs will be considered fake you know that.

Like all grand conspiracy theories, nothing can ever be disproven to the satisfaction of the theorists. You already know this as trafficking in conspiracy theories is a major part of your online schtick..

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 16:32 utc | 271


Your attempt to squash an identification by the victims is as transparent as it is futile.

There are commonsense answers to all of your objections.

The possibility that a few of the victims might disagree is no reason not to do a victim identification.

Privacy? He's dead and there's a compelling public interest.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 16:44 utc | 272

Correction @274: Your attempt to squash calls for an identification ...

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 16:56 utc | 273


I thought a death certificate is a public record.
A query to google confirms.
Maybe not in all cases?

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 18 2019 16:58 utc | 274

Oh and one more thing ...

The victim's have already seen Epstein's body many times. There's no privacy violation by showing the body to them.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 17:03 utc | 275

Jackrabbit. Lol.

What I'm squashing is your transparent use of nonsense because US law precludes basically everything you want to happen here. And I have to assume that as an intelligent Amerikkkan you already know all this...and we will need to overrule existing law to get what you want.

But I'm with you...I say we should not only allow a public showing of all Epstein related evidence including the bod, we should grant the victims the right to positively identify Epstein's uniquely shaped penis and we should immediately grant all US workers union membership along with a minimum $15 an hour pay rate, plus Medicare for all.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 17:05 utc | 276

Yeah, Right @ 252

"Why is it so hard to comprehend that Epstein wasn't omniscient?"

This is an interesting response, that you think I was alluding to in my post, and not a requirement to take the logical course of action for Epstein, to not set foot on US soil once the documents were unsealed. You're theory is plausible, but requires Epstein to be an incredible gambler, or incredibly stupid. He might be a gambler, but I don't think he was stupid. My theory (and others), of his return is predicated on the belief his handlers would be able to extract him from any situation. My belief also uses the reported visit by Barr before the first "attempted suicide" and Epstein's defiant smirk in photos. These points, as well as the history of the "deep state" to protect their assets, the real possibility of a Deadman switch with huge amounts of damaging info on many powerful people, and the fact that all that the MSM and some alt-media want to discuss is the suicide vs murder angle brings me to my theory that he was switched out and is alive, also plausible.

Posted by: RF | Aug 18 2019 17:06 utc | 277

donkeytale @232

I made no mention of Baden! I did link The Corbett Report podcast on Epstein which covers Baden from 23:50 to 28:30; you will see that James Corbet is neutral at present.

I am waiting to see what Baden states in his report (if it is made available to public).

Posted by: ADKC | Aug 18 2019 17:12 utc | 278

donkeytale: US law precludes basically everything you want to happen here.

Really? Are you an attorney with relevant expertise?

US law gives victims certain rights and allows for courts to compel action where there's a compelling public interest.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 17:15 utc | 279

ADKC - Correct, I shouldn't have lumped you in with the conspiracy theorists.

You were agreeing with JR on the pedophilia issue not whether Epstein is alive.

I recognised that right after I posted and hoped you wouldn't

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 17:17 utc | 280

donkey logic

Distrust of Epstein, The MEGA Group, Mossad, CIA, etc. = "conspiracy theorist".

A reasonable and simple-to-execute identification of the body by victims = foolishness.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 18 2019 17:33 utc | 281

This is a good report by The Outer Light on the Ghislaine Maxwell photo at the In-N-Out Burger. Concludes that incident is staged, the photo has been photoshopped and some evidence of a second person has been obscured. Also, interesting analysis of the the G. Maxwell review of "The Book of Honor: The Secret Lives and Deaths of CIA Operatives" - concludes that in her review Maxwell is implying that Epstein was an intelligence agent and was assassinated while undercover but then goes on talk about some thing called paradoxical intent (which Wikipedia describes as "the deliberate practice of a neurotic habit or thought, undertaken to identify and remove it").

In the context of Epstein being some kind of intelligence operation,
The Outer Light describes paradoxical intent is as where the intelligence community creates questions that make it look like they are responsible and in doing so they create a kind of mind game which has the effect of ensuring that the investigation is not focused on the real areas of importance.

Analysis of Ghislaine Maxwell photo at In-N-Out Burger and her Amazon review.

Posted by: ADKC | Aug 18 2019 17:49 utc | 282

JR - Well, then, let the victims sue for the right to the photographic evidence of Epsetin's autopsy report. Whether they require this evidence to pursue a civil action or because of a "compelling public interest" would need to be proved.

Here is the relevant New York City law:


Death Certificates

The Health Department issues death certificates for all people who die in one of the five boroughs of New York City. The Health Department also fulfills requests to correct death certificates. Requests to order death certificates can take 3-4 weeks to be processed.

Note that there are two parts to the death certificate:

The standard certificate of death

The part that includes a confidential medical report of the cause of death
can be ordered — for the same cost — but who can order it and how it can be ordered varies.
Most people need just the certificate of death.

Who is Entitled to Each Type of Death Certificate?

The following relations to the deceased may request both a death certificate and the confidential cause of death medical report:

Domestic partner
Informant listed on the certificate
Person in control of disposition

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 18 2019 17:58 utc | 283

George Galloway just said on his show that he has been told that the photo of Ghislaine in LA is photoshopped, and Whitney Webb, now on the show, confirmed this.

Posted by: lysias | Aug 18 2019 18:34 utc | 284

It seems the book sold out....article by author Ted Gup in Washington Post...

"For me, the important thing was that she was reading my book, which was published nearly 20 years ago. That was worth a call both to my mother and my agent. Then text messages from friends across the country began pouring in sharing the big news, along with assorted comments — some respectful, some snarky. “You can’t choose your readers,” a pal texted from California. “Nice plug for your book!!!” said one from Montana. “You’re in the news!!” came the news from Massachusetts."

Posted by: dh | Aug 18 2019 18:49 utc | 285

JE is accused of sexual assault and rape (among other things) which are crimes regardless of anyone's age. This makes him a rapist, but not necessarily a pedophile. Age of consent laws are not terribly relevant to this case.

Anyone who is a strong supporter of age of consent laws, or otherwise conflating "child" with "minor" is entitled to their own opinion. But they should realize that there are pros and cons. For example, how do you feel about a minor being prosecuted for child pornography for photographing their own body? This is a real thing that has happened (in Florida even).

Posted by: rockstar | Aug 18 2019 19:16 utc | 286

Apologies, I mistakenly replied to what I believed were recent comments, not aware that there were more comments on separate pages.

(and this on one of the rare occasions when I was able to post... :(

Posted by: rockstar | Aug 18 2019 19:24 utc | 287

New Yorker: The Gall of Ghislaine Maxwell

Check out the name of the agency the New Yorker uses for their source of the G. Maxwell photo. The Mega agency. Mega, G. Maxwell, Epstein all in close proximity on one page, on accident?

Posted by: Zack | Aug 18 2019 19:25 utc | 288

@290 A nice summary of the Epstein affair to date but not very useful. Was the In-and-Out photo staged or photoshopped in some way? What exactly is the message? Was the amazon review clever satire? If not why would Maxwell tell everybody Epstein was an agent who died in the line of duty?

Will the various investigations clear things up to everybody's satisfaction?

Posted by: dh | Aug 18 2019 19:48 utc | 289

@254 Mina. Ouch that's bound to hurt. Txs..
Jr, I think you should take Grieved's wise advice..

Posted by: Lozion | Aug 18 2019 19:57 utc | 290

dh @291

See my post @284 for the answers you seek (possibly).

Posted by: ADKC | Aug 18 2019 20:31 utc | 291

@293 I saw it thanks. Just more speculation. I'm none the wiser.

Posted by: dh | Aug 18 2019 20:39 utc | 292

dh @294

The best answers you are going to get (probably):

1. The photo was photoshopped.

2. The message is what you understand it to be.

3. The review is meant to be from Ghislaine Maxwell; you are meant to understand this as an authentic message from Maxwell.

4. You are meant to understand that Epstein was working for an intelligence agency.

Bonus: It is all misdirection.

Posted by: ADKC | Aug 18 2019 21:10 utc | 293

All misdirection? You mean, you think he was not working for an intelligence agency? Where do you get that idea from?

Posted by: lysias | Aug 18 2019 21:27 utc | 294


Just thought it was a strange coincidence. It would be a clever way to send a msg. Could also mean absolutely nothing. Couple more examples.

DailyMail:The tantalising mystery of Ghislaine Maxwell's burger bar 'makeover'...

Epstein case: Ghislaine Maxwell ‘spotted’ in Los Angeles burger bar.

Posted by: Zack | Aug 18 2019 21:30 utc | 295

lsysia @296

It is what is described as "paradoxical intent". I referred to it as "misdirection" because it is intended to keep you focussed on the wrong issues.

My post was intended mainly for dh in answer to the questions he posed @291 and the info and links to The Outer Light podcast in my post at @284.

"We" imagine that "we" are working out the "truth" about the Ghislaine Maxwell In-N-Out Burger Bar photo but it is intended that "we" work out this "truth".

Sorry, I know that is not very satisfactory but it is the only answer that makes any sense. It is not the work of pransker who has fooled all these newspapers, therefore it must be the work of someone connected to the intelligence services. And we might think that the intelligence services have tripped themselves by revealing something unintended, but the intelligence services are not incompetent (particularly in psyopps).

Posted by: ADKC | Aug 18 2019 21:48 utc | 296

@298 The photo was photoshopped? She was never in the burger place with her dog? OK, I appreciate your efforts but couldn't it just be Maxwell having a laugh at everybody's expense. She doesn't seem to have any qualms about finding young girls (for want of a better expression) to amuse Epstein and his famous friends why would she worry about a bit of misdirection? Doesn't seem to be working that way though as I'm sure most people think Epstein was working for someone and he was murdered to keep him quiet. What we need is to hear the full story from somebody credible (if such a person exists) until then it's just speculation.

I still think the amazon book review was a clever bit of satire.

Posted by: dh | Aug 18 2019 22:16 utc | 297

reply to Posted by: Noirette | Aug 18 2019 15:11 utc | 261

Thank you for your comment.

I am not a 4Chan reader, didn't even know it existed actually. The reason the post has credibility to me is that it was posted ten minutes before the jail announced he was dead. And it also reads like it is coming from someone who is genuinely frightened.

Other factors led me to conclude he is out and about. For example;
1. posts from officials at other prisons saying that people on suicide watch are never taken off of suicide watch for any reason such as those given by the Press and suicide watch or not, a felon of his notoriety would have been watched like a hawk.

2. the absence of videos, the absence of guards, the complete lack of consistency as .to what room he was held in, what beds if any and what sheets.

3. the gurney photos, one of which clearly is shot in a fire dept and his face photo shopped, the other appears to be at a hospital, why oxygen when he is already dead??

As for the attorneys looking into the autopsy, they are attorneys in possession of I suspect a sizeable retainer. They are going to rack up as many hours as they can. There are a lot more details, but to me they add up on a free as a bird Epstein.

Posted by: frances | Aug 18 2019 22:35 utc | 298


Whitney Webb, in her recent brilliant interview with Consortium News---what a smart lady!---reminds viewers near the end of the longish interview of what Ghislaine Maxwell is actually accused of doing. She is accused not only of being "madam" but also being herself a rapist and enforcer, plus has taken steps to detain and basically kidnap girls by taking their passports, and other miscreant actions. She is an awful person. If the FBI or anyone were serious about this case she would be called in for questioning, not gallivanting around confusing the public and press with "Where is Carmen Sandiego" picture popups all over the country, now near Boston, now in LA. As Webb points out with the 24/7 surveillance we are all under the intelligence community knows perfectly well where Maxwell is. The public is being gamed.

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 18 2019 23:58 utc | 299

Really???@301 cites someone to the effect that Maxwell is accused of very serious crimes. Wikipedia says she pleaded to one count in 2008. But she has not been charged again. But the complicity in the alleged criminal enterprise is not just limited to Maxwell. All the other figures have been getting off, which is more than Epstein and Barr can say. The time served may be deemed insufficient and the use of money payments to make these even less onerous may be resented, but it's not scot free. At the very best, that's sill hyperbole and at worst deliberately inflammatory. The thing is, if the supposedly powerful Epstein and Barr can't get away completely, how can the nobodies in this vast network? Indeed, how can they avoid taking the fall. There is a distinction between crimes and a huge conspiracy with nearly unlimited power, complete with spies, cult temples, sinister plots...The simplest explanation for not convicting the henchmen is the lurid fantasy version isn't true. That Epstein and Maxwell cut a plea because the inflammatory charges were chancy for a trial, and the prosecutors didn't charge much for the simple reason they couldn't be sure they'd successfully prosecuted. Possibly neither side was willing to lose big.

It is not an established fact that Epstein was a spy; that Maxwell inherited a post in Israeli intelligence; that Epstein was funded by Israel; that Epstein made his money by pimping girls; that Epstein made his money by blackmailing billionaires; that Epstein stole his money; that Epstein ran a Ponzi scheme; that Epstein lost huge amounts of money but no one complained; that Epstein was an occultist; not even that Epstein was a front who laundered money or hid it from taxes or made illegal trades under guise of money management; that the trafficking charges are actually about "new" offenses. About all that's been established is that Epstein paid young women for sex and one or more (maybe many) were under age. And that somehow all this is supposed to prove Clinton is a monster and a traitor and the Democrat Party is a monstrous conspiracy of traitors, but nobody is supposed to acknowledge the political motive in whipping up a witch hunt of pedophile traitors and by the way, they're Jewish.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Aug 19 2019 0:39 utc | 300

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