Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 16, 2019

Epstein Suicided - Thread 2

There are nearly 550 comments on the Epstein Suicided thread. A second one is thus justified.

As I did not follow the development of that case as diligently as some commentators here I have, for now, little to add.

The British Daily Mail reported that Epstein had this painting in his New York mansion.


One wonders if Bill and/or Hillary knew about it.

Please use this thread for the continuing discussion of the Epstein issue.

Posted by b on August 16, 2019 at 16:59 UTC | Permalink

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correction @101: "biological grounds"

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 0:46 utc | 101


It's a bit like the debate on abortion, ain't it?

Red lines on paedophilia.

What it is not is a debate about age of consent or if/whether authorities want to protect minors from predators, lol, like the wolves who protect the proverbial hen house from 'degenerates.'

It is rather the real degenerates who are speaking, the extended intelligence community, with whom so many of the sayanim poseurs here work, and together they are telling you anything goes and you can't do a fucking thing about it.

They are degrading your sense of justice, and if you are a father I might understand why you are taking the bait.

There is no proof Epstein is dead. To prove it would put similar ops at risk, when the perps suddenly begin to question their own safety. Full spectrum media hazing of the audience has multiple objectives, including the daily hazing we get here, firstly to ensure that no one talks about how the 'authorities' who preside over us can act with impunity - even stealing our children and using them as sex slaves, or worse.

Posted by: C I eh? | Aug 17 2019 0:47 utc | 102

How interesting that the discussion has turned to age of consent instead of the bogus determination by the Medical Examiner.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 0:49 utc | 103

C I eh? @103


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 0:50 utc | 104

This painting is a flipping waste of time. Let the circus continue. The fertilizer left over at the end of the circus may be of some use.

Posted by: dltravers | Aug 17 2019 0:51 utc | 105

C I eh? @103

Did you see my comment @89?

I'm thinking now that the determination was suicide so that the body can be disposed of.

This greatly raises my assessment of the likelihood that Epstein was the helped to escape.

And the continuing propaganda campaign supports this theory as well.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 0:58 utc | 106

Posted by: C I eh? | Aug 17 2019 0:47 utc | 103
Well said.

Posted by: O | Aug 17 2019 1:05 utc | 107

I find this discussion among Westerners quite interesting.

As I am want, let me add that in 2008 when the TBTF private banks were bailed out by the government of the supposed American public, we were told by Obama that what they did was legal which is my tie in to this thread.....the same people that made the laws about economically raping the public made the laws about what are legal interactions between male/female humans at specific ages.

While you all are wallowing in this kabuki, the rest of the world (China, et al) are at war with late empire over private versus public finance.

And I suspect the same, non-empire public, are rolling their eyes at the ongoing social blindness of Westerners to the reality we all are living. Don't be surprised, as the real war progresses, if the non-empire folks show little to no kindness/sympathy for this sort of "identity politics" kabuki.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 17 2019 1:12 utc | 108

9. more to Epstein than Epstein try MEGA...

10. Website says death USDC Epstein case Judge Robert Sweet followed Epstein's death and says NYC police officer, who posted Epstein' snapped-neck cause of death before it was known<=found dead the first link reminds Steve Wozniak warned Epstein to be a risk to “prominent names in technology”.
is 10 true?? please tell me. i have not seen this anywhere else?

11. Epstein was suicided. That's how our CIA does business

12. The Unsealed Epstein Documents are here

Posted by: snake | Aug 17 2019 1:13 utc | 109

Goodness, like the first 500+ comments weren't enough.
If Epstein was really so dangerous - he would have been taken out long ago.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 17 2019 1:21 utc | 110

i think epstein got whacked, easier all around. then it just vanishes down the memory hole like bank fraud and iraqi wmd's.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 17 2019 1:21 utc | 111

Cyril Wecht, a nationally acclaimed forensic expert (who is not Jewish and thus less prone to self-censorship in this case), says:

Fractures of the hyoid bone in suicide hangings are rare and when you further keep in mind this was not a suicide hanging from stepping off a high ladder.

According to reports, Epstein had tied a bed-sheet to the bunk and kneeled on the ground and then leaned forward to kill himself.

That maneuver, Wecht said, is not conducive to breaking bones.

"In majority of those you don't see fractures because there is no great amount of force," said Wecht. "It's basic physics."

"This case right now has very strong odor to it."

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 1:22 utc | 112

re epstein would have been taken out long ago--

he wasn't dangerous till he got arrested last month. he said he had been assaulted (but disbelieved, officially) not long after, which is why he was placed on suicide watch. then he was taken off for unclear reasons, he was not observed closely (again, allegedly), no camera on the cell, irregular guards who performed their duties haphazardly, fractured bones not typical of suicides--it all adds up to a hit.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 17 2019 1:31 utc | 113

pretzelattack @111: i think epstein got whacked

That could be. They should show us the body. Show it to the victims. Allow them to take dna samples for testing.

Show us how he was supposed to have killed himself. Let the guards be interviewed by independent media.

Arrest Ghislaine.

There's a lot that they could do to increase confidence. And to the extent that they DON'T, we are justified in thinking the worst. And the worst is NOT that Epstein was 'whacked' but that Epstein was helped to escape.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 1:36 utc | 114

Crazy comment tangent. If all that is at stake here is Epstein's fondness for girls (and how best to characterize it) then we should all move on. This site focuses on geopolitics, correct?

Where did he get his money?

What financial dealings was he involved with beyond purchasing islands, ranches, and NY mansions?

Was he providing others means to gather intelligence through blackmail? Or was he just into sharing his fetishes with other like minded individuals?

Catherine the Great was 10 when she was betrothed and 16 when married to a man she detested and later dethroned. Alexander was 20 when he became King and set out to conquer the world.

Trafficking children is illegal in the US, as well as being morally reprehensible. Enough said about it. Is there something more here?

Posted by: the pessimist | Aug 17 2019 1:43 utc | 115

Imagine if (H.) Clinton 2.0 had won rather than Trump.
We'd all now be read something like: "I did not have sex with that woman!"

Bill's probably just dressed up to play Dorothy at the ball back in Kansas ... nice ruby slippers. Monica must be laughing her boobs off!

Posted by: imo | Aug 17 2019 2:00 utc | 116

Sometimes I think I am in the midst of childlike innocents. Many here get all worked up about some simple evil thing. There are worse things in the world, trust me on this I've seen most of them. I'm just not the type who gets all 'moral' about any particular form of human rottenness. Shit happens. All the time. I wouldn't hate Epstein. I certainly would keep my distance.

Some people, maybe most people, are generally nice and decent. But I've seen that some are capable of absolutely anything. But I find it pointless to hate them for it. I go out of my way to help those around me identify, and expect, the evil ones. Those evil ones almost never just come out and proclaim their evilness. In fact, unless they have a sociopathic neurological disorder, they practically never believe in the fact of their own evil. It's not so hard to learn to identify the sociopathic ones. The evil ones who believe themselves to be righteous are much harder to spot.

I am pretty sure Mr. Epstein was sociopathic. People with this brain anomaly usually end up on drugs, or in jail, or just dead, unless they have 'handlers', or money (they tend to be as harmful to themselves as they are to others). It's clearly very likely that Epstein had handlers. I don't hate him, or even his handlers (most of whom are sociopathic too).

The ordinary people have been kept in the dark about how this who 'handler' system works. It's not just about making more money and gaining more power. It is more about 'churning' the narrative so as to demonstrate to everyone that they are 'doing things' of great importance. They are part of a vast system of mutual support. They are the aristocratic conspiracy. It is not some small random commonalty conspiracy (which can be acknowledged and prosecuted). Of course, to acknowledge the vast aristocratic conspiracy is a serious thoughtcrime, and is not acceptable. But what is perfectly acceptable is the impossibility the Mr. Epstein committed suicide in his barren cell. This is simply more aristocratic churning of the narrative. Certainly nothing to get all rectitudinous about.

Posted by: blues | Aug 17 2019 2:11 utc | 117

This is interesting. A favored hypothesis of mine is that the ruling classes rule by the virtue of the refinement of the base desires of the common man.

And that the common man recognizes it as such.

Posted by: Realist | Aug 17 2019 2:13 utc | 118

98 JR

Uh, no.
That is lame.
I made a very specific point.
I said: "Stop accusing those who are actually using language precisely."

Your have-to-be-rightism is as lame as your putting-words-in-others'-mouth syndrome.

So please STFU.

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 17 2019 2:15 utc | 119

@0 at 100p. Well there ya go then....
I hope you dont actually think I thought JE did nothing wrong. My issue was with branding him something the charges so far dont corroborate.
My personal feelings about it dont matter in a court of 'law'. Not following the law kinda makes us lawless no? There's certainly enough going around eh. Fuck thats what the WHOLE sorrid affair is about after all. A group above the rest of us and their lawlessnes and their corruption. What we feel or think is irrelevant unless we put it into action. That wont happen here. I doubt I see you on the streets this weekend.....but maybe.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 17 2019 2:28 utc | 120

Was this guy Nicholas Tartaglione a fall guy cut out framed up guy who pissed some big timers off so they used him to take the fall for some killings and killing Epstein?

A murder drug dealer who worked rescuing dogs and horses? Now I have heard it all.

Posted by: dltravers | Aug 17 2019 2:29 utc | 121

The artist who painting the Clinton-in-blue-dress picture has said it was done while she was a student, for a fundraiser:

Posted by: Hope | Aug 17 2019 2:35 utc | 122

Thanks sasha #74, Can I add to that economic slide story that not only is USA now boxed in by have having a low interest rate floor with little room to lower but simultaneously many nations are hedging exposure to $US as they witness savage sanction mania as a coercive USA tool. 2008 is entering stage 2. That is equally the real story. I see them both driven by the occupiers of Palestine and their cohorts/captives.

karlof1 #80 loved that crime map by Ryan Dawson on twitter. I note that Vicki Ward sits alone on the far left of the image but Amazing Polly has heaps to say about her and the cover team running hot for Ghislaine Maxwell.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 17 2019 2:38 utc | 123

It is a trivial matter to find to "free" pornography (courtesy of our friends in the so-called intelligence community) that document all the desires of Jeffery Epstein. "Slavic slave girls using stapons on young girls"? check. Sexual slavery and "power exchange"? check. etc. Just a click away under the watchful eyes of Google cum Alphabet. A very common form of pornography.

The propaganda of corporate media is a mirror of human condition. (Ask They know this. (Count on fingers number of days, for example, did not have a titillating item in their side bar .. zero?)

A tiny fraction could never rule over you, were you upright.

Posted by: Realist | Aug 17 2019 2:38 utc | 124

Any chance we could get a stamp made from the painting. Aftrer all, other presidents are on stamps.

Posted by: Michael Doliner | Aug 17 2019 2:39 utc | 125

@93 JR. Yep..

Posted by: Lozion | Aug 17 2019 2:40 utc | 126

Partisan Girl misdirects by saying it is Mossad, when it is the entire apparatus of 1000-eye intelligence that is responsible.

Mossad just takes credit. Every agency, sub agency and department has a role.

Posted by: C I eh? | Aug 17 2019 2:43 utc | 127

Mo55ad = middle East branch of c1a
Assange (and any others who are/risk imprisonment by the USA) should make an official statement that any "suicide" will actually mean death-by-state.
In Assange's case no one will wonder if he's been spirited off

Posted by: ziogolem | Aug 17 2019 3:22 utc | 128

Really?? @119: Stop accusing those who are actually using language precisely.

I've already AGREED @82 with the 'precise language' point. Once again: the media uses "pedophile" as a means of focusing public attention on Epstein the pervert.

Why can't you see MY POINT, which is that bevin failed to be precise about what the law is all about. In doing so, he trivialized the infraction.

Have you failed to see the effort to paint Epstein's underage sex ring as a nothingburger? Really?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 3:29 utc | 129

Who would have ever thought that the entire neoliberal capitalist system was built on a child sex ring?

Posted by: Jonathan | Aug 17 2019 3:50 utc | 130

To nobody's surprise, the official medical report states Epstein committed suicide:

Jeffrey Epstein Autopsy Results Conclude He Hanged Himself

From the headlines, you can feel the NYT's urge to bury the case:

The findings from New York City’s chief medical examiner refute conspiracy theories that Mr. Epstein may have been murdered.

Posted by: vk | Aug 17 2019 4:14 utc | 131

Artist who painted Clinton picture also painted Bush's reenactment of 911

Oh how the truth can hurt so much.

Posted by: dltravers | Aug 17 2019 4:14 utc | 132

Thank you blues #117, exactly that. The situation we have is that the oligarch/zionist manipulation of the goyim is crude, rude and ugly. The Epstein/Ghislaine Maxwell team have done immense damage to their brethren, they have defamed so many people of their faith who I am certain are horrified at this situation and dread what its consequences could be.

The Anti Defamation League should be hell bent on exposing and dismantling this gang of gross manipulators and their participants and compensating their juvenile victims. Sure there is little in reparations that can truly heal but it is absolutely a start as history shows.

I am totally uninterested in the bashem oiks crashing chairs over each other here but vitally interested in what this truly abominable organized crime gang is doing with the worlds power elite. The USA appears to be more capable of global and national intimidation than it is of examining its disgusting fractured social mess and imagining a better national character.

Still backing Bernie and Tulsi though as they appear sincere enough to make a difference.

Hello O, can you ignore the tormenters who are desperate to distract you and perhaps describe the links (if any) between Epstein, Maxwell etc and the chabad faction.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 17 2019 4:19 utc | 133

uncle tungsten @132,

"Should"? Well, they won't, because they're run by the perps. You've been here for more than long enough to know who Dersh is. Think before moral peacocking next time.

Posted by: Jonathan | Aug 17 2019 4:35 utc | 134

For anyone who wants to know the origin of the cabal which rules over us, this is a good place to start. Little has changed over the past 8 or nine centuries, excepting technology, so much so that certain members of the British Parliament still refer to themselves a 'Venetians.'

The Spy Chiefs or Renaissance Venice: Intelligence Leadership in the Early Modern World

Posted by: C I eh? | Aug 17 2019 4:41 utc | 135

To the apologists of Epstein's crimes.

If you're genuinely unable to see and feel disgust in Epstein's crimes, you are beyond help I'm afraid. I would bet my house on the fact that you have never had children yourself or, if you have, have never fulfilled the parental role in any productive or successful way.

It's easy to act without a heart or conscience when you're a psychopath.

Posted by: Pestercorn | Aug 17 2019 5:54 utc | 136

=/ If you're genuinely unable to see and feel disgust in Epstein's crimes, you are beyond help I'm afraid. /=

Maybe you never were confronted with many of the forms of extreme human depravity, and 'they' (your schoolteachers, and so on) allowed you to be set loose in the big world with no equipment for dealing with it all. Presumably you have been indoctrinated with the conviction that The 'ability' to feel disgust is a necessary virtue. In the real world, it just gets in the way of learning how to cope with depraved individuals. In the real world, there are too many of them to punch in the face, and they usually will punch back.

If you can get past the indoctrinated disgust reaction, you may well learn to cope with such people, perhaps by recognizing and avoiding them, or working around them, or outwitting them. You may be able to teach your children and friends how to do these things, also. There are many types of evil, so this requires some significant effort.

Or... you can just get a bit of gratification by punching these evil ones, after they have injured you. But remember, they won't care at all about your feelings of disgust.

The sociopathic ones are special. It is a fact of medicine that you yourself could suffer a frontal lobe injury, say in an auto accident, and then you yourself could change into a total sociopath. It would not be any matter of choice. You must believe in free will. You have no choice.

Posted by: blues | Aug 17 2019 6:33 utc | 137

I noticed that further down the partisangirl twitter thread that karlof1 referenced earlier
there is a photograph at August 15 of Ghislane Maxwell having a delightful breakfast at some lovely NY spot.

Disgusting that she is not the least bit anxious other than having to find some other cafe to avoid being spotted.

Sometimes I feel that the Duterte justice method is more appropriate in these times.

Thank you C I eh? #134 I will read that later tonight.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 17 2019 6:41 utc | 138

The real take away from the Epstein story is that a public majority now questions the media narratives in general. Epstein opened the floodgates in that regard. Nobody really believe there was a suicide, as simple facts don't support it. So when official media tries to sell it as such the result is that trust is destroyed.

A clever distraction from this observation is to endlessly discuss the definition of words like 'pedopehlia'.

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 17 2019 7:38 utc | 139

Why can't ppl just read the documents before asking questions and building theories?
In the judicial records that were known before those that were unsealed, Epstein is asked if he has an "egg-shaped penis".
It says it all and it explains the details of the sexual acts described by the plaintiffs:
most often and apparently for months at the beginning, he would just masturbate and watch the girls doing things,
that could also include straps and sextoys. His participation in the acts would often include sextoys. The SM stuff was apparently the job of Maxwell, who is the one said to have 'slaves' (Epstein probably would consider he had employees and he did manage to turn dozens of his victims into secretaries and assistants for a long time period; obviously he was please to show off to his visitors with having so many young women run the place... Jalous of Khaddafi or something like that). Once Maxwell had played her part in destabilizing the girls, he is the one who then further manipulate the slaves so that they get information about rich and powerful people.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 17 2019 8:03 utc | 140

Does the autopsy report mention fingerprints comparison?Dentition.How are we to know for sure that it was Epstein's body autopsied?

Posted by: willie | Aug 17 2019 9:15 utc | 141

blues | Aug 17 2019 6:33 utc | 139

That is one hell of a great comment!
Much sage advice about the real world we live in...
We can only survive and flourish if we can see and deal with the real, nitty gritty, way the world is writ...

Posted by: V | Aug 17 2019 9:17 utc | 142

My point from the beginning of this discussion: the SPECIFIC case brought by Berman against Epstein is a dumpster fire (albeit an elaborate and sensational one). Any firefighter will tell you what the true purpose of a dumpster fire is...

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 17 2019 9:39 utc | 143

A new Bankrate survey found 42% of Americans decided not to take a vacation over the past year because of the cost. Nearly a third said they can afford a vacation less now than they could have five years ago, though 26% said they can afford to do so more now. More than two-thirds of U.S. adults opted out of a recreational activity due to the cost at some point in the past year, the study found.

Posted by: traveler | Aug 17 2019 10:42 utc | 144

Posted by: steven t johnson | Aug 16 2019 19:31 utc | 32
Pedophilia like charity begins at home (God help us!) Imagining rings of rich people is mostly about scapegoating.

This is so naive as to be almost hilarious, if not so sick: The BBC, one of the most establishment organisations on this earth, was helping and harbouring pedophiles for decades yet you think that "Imagining rings of rich people is mostly about scapegoating.": you are the sort of person that enables this form of perversion by looking the other way.

Posted by: aspnaz | Aug 17 2019 10:49 utc | 145

Posted by: aspnaz | Aug 17 2019 10:49 utc | 147

He is correct. Statistically the most dangerous place is the family, murder, rape, paedophilia whatever.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2019 11:45 utc | 146

Ronald Bernard provides an explanation.

Posted by: JasonT | Aug 17 2019 12:11 utc | 147

You have to get a grip on statistics.
Sure, in absolute numbers, there's way more cases of rape and paedophilia at home than due to rich perverted strangers. But that's because they represent 1%, not 100% of the population.
If you look at the ratio of wealthy pervert rapists, this would go way above the ratio of "normal" people - which is already way too high, definitely. As others already said (including Craig Murray, iirc), the current economic and political elite is mostly sociopathic; that's how they came to power and why they sought it to begin with. These guys will then act like sociopaths, so Epstein's shenanigans, and those of his elite buddies, shouldn't come as much a surprise.

Besides, whether there's vast rings of pedos in the 1% isn't actually relevant. What's relevant is that more and more people believe it and are fed up with them, because the ultimate worthy goal is to have all of them hanging from lampposts. They began the class war and they have to lose it and be wholly defeated, to the last man and woman. If we don't have to fabricate blood libels against our ruling slavery-loving elites (because they actually turn out to be even worse than what we think they are, and just as bad as what we accuse them to be), the better for it.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Aug 17 2019 13:00 utc | 148

Paul Street is on a roll today:

Uncle Sam Was Born Lethal"

I just want to say I agree with blues, that's the America I grew up in. Mr. Street makes the point very well. I have been annoyed since my early twenties (late 1960s) at how ill prepared all that schooling left me for the real world of American politics and business practices. I knew quite a few "chickenhawks" when I was young, that's the term for Epstein, I can tell stories, if anything they are less overt these days is seems to me, they used to treat it like a sport, I think they still do, but I don't get out much now. Life got much easier when I learned to recognize and avoid assholes before they got interested in me. Knowing when and how to leave right time will save you more trouble than any amount of good advice.

Wayne Madsen has an insightful piece about Kashmir up at that site too.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 17 2019 13:12 utc | 149

Posted by: the pessimist | Aug 17 2019 1:43 utc | 117

That is the point. It is obviously not just a sex scandal. It is about corruption.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 17 2019 9:39 utc | 145

It is definitively out of the dumpster.

My guess is Jeffrey Epstein acted as strawman for people who did not wish to be connected with the investment - because their money was illegal or their names tainted. Wexner now - after Epstein's death - claiming that he got cheated out of money is an indicator.

There is for example the curious case of this good looking German high society investor who came out of nowhere.

Nicole Junkermann worked for John Casablanca's Elite Model Agency. John Casablancas, inventor of the super model and friend of Donald Trump

She then turns up at the private Monaco University, "a sunny place for shady people" according to Somerset Maugham, and from there moves on to Harvard.

She is on Epstein's flight list. She is also director of a security software company with Ehud Barak as chairman. She is supposed to have earned her first money with a French online poker and sports betting site that would have been a great tool for money laundering. She sits now on a National Health Advisory Board in Britain.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2019 13:24 utc | 150

I hope people notice that is a BLUE DRESS!!!!

Posted by: Mike Lamb | Aug 17 2019 13:37 utc | 151

blues @ 139

Well written and well spoken. The damage is long lasting on the victims and that is ignored because the damage in internal to the victim. Not only was the whole system supported of the Epstein operation and the list is endless of the various agencies involved which are local, state, and national as well as the international agencies but the media is involved as well in their lack of real reporting. The family's of the victims, in almost all cases appear to be missing in action as well.

It appears Western society is openly embracing its squalid lake of decency and its decay. The few who stood up should be counted as true heroines of our society. Instead, the enablers will be looked on for moral authority and guidance in the normal idiot's appeal to authority.

It is a damm shame people are too blind to see, too busy to notice, and too stupid to understand. This will turn out in the end to be just another day in NYC.

Posted by: dltravers | Aug 17 2019 13:38 utc | 152

Posted by: Mina | Aug 16 2019 20:28 utc | 39

Thanx Mina, that was exactly what I wanted to post and you beat me to it 8)

While all the world is chatting and speculating about the when and why of his dead, about the (absolutely not new and long known) phedophile doings, etc.etc.etc. mostly nobody asks the real big questions.

What is the real purpose of the blackmailing and what do the peoples in the shadow pulling the strings get if they let you enter the world of the rich, famous and (mandatory ?) compromised !?

Could it be that epstein was also a 'thrusted' messenger for and between different parties in different schemes of whatever focus (business,finance,military etc?) wich wanted to comunicate without any fear of beeing monitored?

This is one of the few articles wich at least give an idea into what this is possibly all about.

All this disgusting pedo stuff is mainly a big cover for eventually another cover for the real deal. If somebody really thinks that noone of the guys in the black book did not know that he is taped, because with all their wealth there was only one place in the world for their sick sexual fantasies is exactly where TPTSB whant him to be, in shadowland far away from reality.

War by deception anyone ?

Posted by: youss | Aug 17 2019 13:47 utc | 153

In response to all of those who seem to believe that the US designation of who is a child is the "correct" one (under 21).

As female born in the UK in the late 1940s, who left school at 15 years of age and started work as a filing clerk (legally back in 1963), who went out with a bloke aged 21 a couple of times, who then aged 16 was an art student and had an affair with another man some 12 years my senior (my choice, too) for about six months (I was just 17 when it began), I should like to say to those who think, feel, believe that I was exploited by that older man: No, I was fully aware of what I was doing. I wasn't a "child" - indeed hadn't been such from at least age 15. I knew what I was doing.

Back in working class Britain when I was that age, and earlier, one was expected to go out to work and one's wages were handed over to one's mother who gave back enough to pay of necessities like bus fares. We were expected to learn to pay our way, not be molly-coddled. Indeed from a much earlier age, as the eldest child I was given more and more chores as the years went by, from ironing to painting the outside of the cowshed and mucking it out. We weren't treated like mindless, self-absorbed children. But then, our parents hadn't been either (my father left school at age 14 and went to work; my mother at 16).

What is so bizarre about the US view is that while those of 16, 17 and not quite 18 are considered unable to decide whether or not to have sex, and from 18-21 must not drink alcohol - they can drive AND once 18 VOTE. One can only imagine that for these latter two immaturity is just fine and dandy.

Posted by: AnneR | Aug 17 2019 13:47 utc | 154

Now, not only the NYT is certain Epstein committed suicide, it now has a complete log of the events the day he did it:

Inmate 76318-054: The Last Days of Jeffrey Epstein -- The notorious jail in Manhattan was a sharp departure from his formerly gilded life. Here’s what happened inside. (my bolds)

The article simply repeats the "guards sleeping" narrative. The novelty now is that it is stated as the real series of events.

It's a very happy coincidence the NYT finished its "investigative journalism" the day after the medical report came out. More coincidental that it corroborates with the official narrative too.

Posted by: vk | Aug 17 2019 13:56 utc | 155

AnneR | Aug 17 2019 13:47 utc | 155:

those of 16, 17 and not quite 18 are considered unable to decide whether or not to have sex

This is yet another mis-characterization of the law with the subtext that Epstein did nothing wrong.

Once again: teens under 18 CAN decide whether to have sex. American parents don't lock them up. And millions of them do have sex before they reach 18. But the vast majority of that sex is with other teens.

The law puts people OVER 18 in legal jeopardy because the law is designed to protect young teens from exploitation by people who are much older and much more experienced. 18- and 19- year old teens are not protected.

Values differ from culture to culture and change over time. The law may be relatively recent in human history but it's not arbitrary. There's a real purpose that the vast majority of Americans (and I would say Westerners) agree on: protecting vulnerable populations. Elderly people, for example, are also protected by laws against elder abuse.

One can disagree with the law but ignoring the purpose and widespread support for the law is just propagandizing in support of Epstein because most of those complaining about the law before Epstein are pedophiles (people that have such a strong preference for sexual relations with young people that they have difficulty relating to people of their own age).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 14:33 utc | 157

@ Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 14:33 utc

Lucky for you, it's not illegal to beat dead horses...

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 17 2019 14:39 utc | 158


I like horses. I just beat the horseshit.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 14:44 utc | 159

Clinton painting. The crowd Epstein belonged to, aka wormed his way into with the help of Maxwell,
are fakey and oh-so-complimentary fans of so-called deviant / edgy / shocking art. (> Abramovich for ex.)

A modern form of épater le bourgeois - being more daring, sophisticated, and knowlegeable
than the plebs, who only appreciate Elvis sketched on Velvet and at best Norman Rockwell and for
the artsy crowd Andy Wharhol or hmm Rothko or Jeff Koons...

Paintings and ‘art’ figure imagination and not RL. It is thus permissible to show, for ex. a murder,
a child cleaved in pieces, or bleeding out, and not face anything.

(Imho paintings are also used for money laundering or transfers, other story.)

The painting is technically poor and banal *see link for artist etc.*,
and sold only because of its lame ‘transgressive’ nature.

As political satire it fails, its shock value is built on nothing
(Bill. C. is nothing but male, even if he is bi-sex or whatever..
The one of Bush is a bit better, see link.)

The blue dress is an item from Hillary’s wardrobe, as pointed out by The Sun and others.

Red shoes are today associated with blood, child sacrifice and rape, pedophilia, and satanism.

The origins and different strands are varied, from Catholic, the pope’s shoes.. -
Red the blood of martyrs, of Jesus. One ex. from fiction,

Hans C. Andersen, The Red Shoes, a little girl dances compulsively in these and … gets her feet cut off.

Does anyone notice that Bill is making the sign of Horus in that panting…?

yes. also if you look carefully he may have 6 fingers.

If Epstein did keep it on his wall, yeah bad art joke, whatever.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 17 2019 14:50 utc | 160

Jackrabbit. I am NOT excusing trafficking in sexual exploitation - the trafficked include those over 18 as well. Or do the older trafficked not matter? Nor do I excuse the use and abuse of children by adults.

What I was arguing was that - despite your presumptions about other "western" cultures - beyond the US (don't know about Canada) and definitely in Europe, the age of sexual maturity, i.e. the age at which one can legally consent to have sex (and often also get married) is 16 (UK) and in other countries a year or so lower. And the age of the sexual (and marital) partner played/s *no* role in the legality of it. There is no presumption - definitely wasn't when I was 16 - 18 that should I choose (as I did) to to have sex that the partner also be under 18 (as indeed he was not). There are cultural differences in the presumption of when sexual maturity, that is the age at which consent for sexual relations, begins. We are not all Americans, at least in our upbringing.

And as I tried to point out, at least back when I was 15-18 in the UK, one was *not* considered a child but was expected to be responsible for one's actions.

None of that excuses Epstein and his coterie. I have no idea what age the young people he trafficked in were (I'm assuming that he trafficked them, i.e. that they were forced to perform sexual favors/acts). Essentially he was a male Madam with likely blackmail (for political and economic purposes) reasons.

Posted by: AnneR | Aug 17 2019 14:53 utc | 161

AnneR - My first serious relationship started with a girl of 16 years of age when I was 20. We grew up in the same neighborhood and she was childhood friends with my sister who long had a crush on me as it turned out (dudes are the last to know).

Her family approved or at least didn't disapprove. I had Christmas dinner with them 3 years running...and they were unfailingly kind towards me at all times. The parents may not have known but her brother who was same age as me surely knew.

By the strict letter of the law, I was committing statutory rape in California. I don't think "sexual abuse of a minor" was even a term of art back then much less a legal definition.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 14:59 utc | 162

AnneR @162

Many, maybe most, of Epstein's girls started with Epstein when they were 14 and 15 (how is it that you are commenting on this but don't know this?). I think there may have been a few (I think I've heard of one) that were 13 when they had first contact with Epstein.

Even in the UK, that is under age of consent.

He focused on girls that could be easily manipulated and controlled. This is exactly the predatory behavior that 'age of consent' laws are designed to prevent.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 15:16 utc | 163

Jackrabbit, your only opponents are straw men. Anyone here knows there's a difference between LEGAL & MORAL. This is an intervention. We don't disagree with you.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 17 2019 15:25 utc | 164

jackrabbit's overly pedantic arguments consist of equal measures straw man and false equivalence. As always, he puts words in others' mouths so he can pretend he's "winning".

JR is never wrong about anything ever although you notice he also subtly hedges his position whenever reality intrudes upon his usual fantastical CT fetish, so he in effect can "never be wrong about anything."

Except for that Trump vote in 2016. JR has no defense for that one, try as he might now to cover his tracks by calling for (but of course not instigating) "gilet jaunes USA" or "direct democracy", IE spouting meaningless slogans of the Orwellian variety in his own pathetic self defense.

Right. Let's not support or do anything in reaction to Trump, the increasing political fascisisation of the global multipowers (yes, including China and Russia along with the US and UK). Let's instead infotain ourselves to distraction with pure noise and spout meaningless cliches whenever put on the spot for our choices in reality.

End result: Trump re-election 2020!

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 15:27 utc | 165

First my apologies if this has already been posted, I hadn't been following the earlier thread.

A cardinal rule when dealing with state agencies: They will only admit to incompetence if the truth is worse.

There appear to be two "official" stories that the MSM is allowing to circulate:
1. The official story: he committed suicide.
2. The "unofficial" official story: he was murdered.

Then there is what really happened. I don't believe that the most significant prisoner in years suicided himself, using a paper sheet, from a low bed, in a room that was supposed to be suicide resistant, while cameras malfunctioned, the guards engaged in synchronized sleeping, at a facility that hasn't had a successful suicide in more than 4 decades.

(INTELLIHUB) — Jeffrey Epstein was handcuffed and wheeled into medical at the Metropolitan Correctional Center at around 4:15 p.m. Friday night just before an unmarked van containing unknown military personnel showed up unannounced to “switch him out”, according to an anonymous post timestamped nearly 10 minutes prior to the actual mainstream news release of the accused sex trafficker’s death by “suicide” which hit the press Saturday morning around 8:53 a.m. on Saturday.

That story is based on this message posted to 4Chan at 8:44 a.m. it reads:
"Not saying anything after this pls do not try to dox me but last night after 0415 they took him [Epstein] [to] medical in a wheelchair front cuffed but not 1 triage nurse says they spoke to him. Next thing we know trip vans show up? We do not do releases on weekends unless a judge orders it. Next thing we know, he’s put in a single man cell and hangs himself? Here’s the thing, the trip van did NOT sign in and we did not record the plate number and a guy with a green dress military outfit was in the back of the van according to the tower guy that let him through the gate. You guys I am shaking right now but I think they switched him out."

It fits. I believe they swapped him out for a corpse, where is he? My guess Israel, waiting for the plastic surgeon and his team to get started.

Another indication this is the real story; the observing coroner is the same fellow who officiated at JFK's and MLK's autopsy. They are laughing at us.

Posted by: frances | Aug 17 2019 15:35 utc | 166

not long ago, craig murray wrote a post in which he identified some posters that were using multiple handles to post and deflect discussion. why are we talking about laws on age of consent in the u.s. precisely?

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 17 2019 15:41 utc | 167

Sorry Frances. It doesn't fit.

CLAIM: Dr. Michael Baden, 85, the pathologist who investigated the assassinations of President John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr., performed Jeffrey Epstein's autopsy.

THE FACTS: Epstein's lawyers asked Baden, a well-known pathologist, to attend the autopsy. He did not perform it. Reports circulated Thursday on Facebook and Twitter suggesting that Baden was chosen to do the autopsy as part of a cover-up to protect important people who have been tied to Epstein, among them President Donald Trump and former President Bill Clinton.

New York City Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Barbara Sampson performed the autopsy Sunday on Epstein, who died Saturday from an apparent suicide, the AP reported. Epstein was found early Saturday in a Manhattan jail cell at the Metropolitan Correctional Center, where he was awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges. Sampson said it is routine for private pathologists to observe an autopsy.

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 15:42 utc | 168

Epstein is a serial rapist and abuser of young women. It's a legal fact.

Comments attempt to minimize Epstein's transgressions by pointing to biology (directly or indirectly) are just pro-Epstein propaganda. Before Epstein, only pedophiles made such arguments.

Those who want to gossip about their own experience with underage people, or as an underage person, should do so on the Open Thread.

@AnnR: There's no doubt that Epstein knew the law and grew up in US culture that generally supports that law. Most men in their 40's would be thrilled with an 18- or 19-year old. But Epstein+Ghislaine wanted 14- and 15- year olds - the 'forbidden fruit' that would most compromise their blackmail targets.

@donkey: You had the consent of the parents, so your comment adds nothing.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 15:57 utc | 169

this is an interesting story about some "fictional" characters.

Monster = Epstein
Mari = Ghislaine
Russian oligarch = ?
Hollywood star = Sean Penn
Latin American dictator= Castro?
intelligence agency of another country = Mossad
Princess = Kerry Kennedy married to Cuomo

Posted by: Mischi | Aug 17 2019 16:01 utc | 170

James Patterson writes about his neighbour, Jeffrey Epstein

Posted by: Mischi | Aug 17 2019 16:02 utc | 171

166 Donkeytale

"jackrabbit's overly pedantic arguments consist of equal measures straw man and false equivalence. As always, he puts words in others' mouths so he can pretend he's "winning".

JR is never wrong about anything ever.'

Phew! Thanks for that.

What is with this guy (or perhaps it is a Jillrabbit)?
Willfully misunderstanding and misstating what others say and then accusing them.
For example JR totally missed Anne's point, then accused her of having an agenda that doesn't pass JR's muster.

Actually, these are old established rhetorical tricks, but they are dishonest and waste a lot of time and energy.
What's in it for JR? No, don't answer that! Just go munch on a carrot!

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 17 2019 16:06 utc | 172

For a detailed account of what a (deliberate) travesty the autopsy of JFK was, read the five volumes of Douglas Horne's "Inside the Assassination Records Review Board". As the Chief Analyst of Military Records of that board, retired naval officer Horne had an insider's view of the congressionally mandated reinvestigation of the assassination done in the 1990s.

Posted by: lysias | Aug 17 2019 16:06 utc | 173

JR - In California, consent is not a legal defense for statutory rape.

Under California Penal Code 261.5 PC, a "statutory rape" takes place when any person engages in sexual intercourse with a person under the age of eighteen (18). ... Statutory rape is a crime regardless of whether the sex was consensual or even initiated by the minor (the supposed "victim" of the crime).

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 16:07 utc | 174


What is with this guy (or perhaps it is a Jillrabbit)?
Willfully misunderstanding and misstating what others say and then accusing them.
For example JR totally missed Anne's point, then accused her of having an agenda that doesn't pass JR's muster.

Actually, these are old established rhetorical tricks, but they are dishonest and waste a lot of time and energy.
What's in it for JR?

He's harmless...I guess...?

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 16:19 utc | 175

@pretzelattack #113
Except no one got whacked over Iraq WMDs or bank fraud.
It also doesn't explain why now. This isn't the first time Epstein got arrested.
What was different this time?
Secondly, if he really had so many rich and powerful people threatened by information he held, again, why now and not before? Rich and powerful people aren't any more passive and accepting than you think they would be, and Epstein's shenanigans were so widespread that they must have known their situation was shared, if in fact that is what is happening.
If anything, I'd say that Epstein had more reason to suicide than be killed. His primary source - Wexner - had gone on record saying that Epstein stole huge amounts of money from him. That's a career death sentence for a money handler, as well as a heck of a motive unrelated to blackmail, extortion or whatnot.

Posted by: c1ue | Aug 17 2019 16:28 utc | 176

To people here bitching about the concept of minor and adult.

In Human history, there are/were, grosso modo, three marriage systems:

1) The "Mediterranean system", which we can attest through Roman documents, where the female marries young (13-14 years old) and the male marries old (22-23 years old). Sometimes, when the male was very rich and powerful and became a widower, the age difference was even starker (Pompey, for example, married Iulius Caesar's daughter when he was more than 40 years old; Aggripa also married Augustus' daugher when more than 40 years old);

2) The "Asian system", where both the male and the female married young (13-14 years old); and

3) The "Northwestern Europe system", where both the male and the female married old (23 years old)*.

The Northwestern system is the most recent of the three (born in the late Middle Ages Northwestern Europe as we can recover from documental evidence), and is highly associated with high rates of female employment in the services sector (domestic service) at least in England and thus the birth of capitalism. Marx, already writing at the middle of the 19th Century (therefore, at the zenith of the British Empire), still attested that the domestic services were still the largest employer of females in the UK, so we can infer female imployment in a capitalist fashion (free labor force; "investing on one's career") is the main factor of late female age of marriage.

The Northwestern system is the dominant system we have nowadays, and, therefore, the system which the vast majority of the world's population considers to be "normal". We can attest this for most significant cases except, maybe, India, because the world's birth rate is falling steadily since the 1980s (when capitalism truly became global). Steep falling birth rates without exceptionally high mortality rates are the main evidence historians use to attest the prevalence of the "Northwestern system". In Africa, we don't observe it, but mortality rates are also high, so it remains relatively sparsely populated (1 billion inhabitants in a territory which is double the size of Russia).

* In Sparta, Spartan women also married old (23 years) -- but that was only the case for the elite women (Spartan citizens), which was a tiny fraction (almost insignificant) of the Lacaedemonian population (most of Sparta's population was made of Helots, not Spartan citizens). In late Medieval England, even peasant women married old -- i.e. the vast majority of the female population.

Posted by: vk | Aug 17 2019 16:29 utc | 177

Please excuse me if this point has already been made in the hundreds of previous posts.

Any sensible intelligence agency designing a blackmail trap would, it seems to me, select girls and boys looking more mature than their actual years, as much so as possible. Most of the intended victims would probably not be complete idiots and might well be wary of being set up.

So the forbidden fruit would be presented as legit.

Posted by: Montreal | Aug 17 2019 16:30 utc | 178

lots of people got whacked over iraqi wmds. mostly in iraq. nobody big got prosecuted over bank fraud. what's different is epstein didn't have a friendly prosecutor who shovelled the investigation under the rug, he didn't have a get out of jail free card. therefore, he had more incentive to talk.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 17 2019 16:42 utc | 179

Excellent article on epstein being a continuation of the scheme by Whitney Webb, an excellent researcher writing from Chile. She publishes subsequent articles on epstein but does not solve anything because there is nothing to solve. At the end of the day, so what, it does not matter, nothing will change, no serious trials will result.

I will post a link to another excellent article that makes the point that nothing really matters. It is extremely long but excellent analysis about the facade of our "democracy" and at the end of the day, this is what mossad and the cia do and have been doing, controlling our "leaders" via sexual blackmail.

Well worth a read if you have the time:

Posted by: Thoma Minnehan | Aug 17 2019 16:50 utc | 180

c1ue @177: I'd say that Epstein had more reason to suicide than be killed.

That assumes that he doesn't have support of an intelligence agency (CIA/Mossad/etc.)

An intelligence operative will get support that any ordinary person can only dream of. Including getting help to escape from prison.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Once again: PRODUCE THE BODY for examination by the press and victims.

If Epstein is really dead, this should not be a problem and is in the public interest (given that he's threat to young people if he's alive).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 16:56 utc | 181

pretzelattack @180: epstein didn't have a friendly prosecutor

You're making some unfounded assumptions there.

We know that Epstein+Ghislaine *DID* have a friendly prosecutor in 2008 when Epstein's gang got the sweetheart Deferred Prosecution Agreement (DPA) because Acosta was told that "Epstein belonged to intelligence."

That Agreement held until the victims started lawsuits and the Miami Herald decided to take notice.

So we are justified in wondering if the current prosecution/imprisionment is just a public spectacle to make it all go away. The weirdness that we've seen suggests that it is.


Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 17:00 utc | 182

@8 Anon

Ehud baraks 10 visits to Epstein clearly show him to be the mossad handler for the information Epstein had. Is trump a Manchurian candidate for Israel? He has handed over Jerusalem to the zios. And if so who is his handler?

A. Netanyahoo
B. Adelson
C. Stephen Miller
D. Jared
E. All of the above

Posted by: Circe | Aug 17 2019 17:25 utc | 183

Pre-pubescent -- Child
Under 18 -- Youth
18 and over (for criminal prosecution purposes) -- Adult

Posted by: Chet380 | Aug 17 2019 17:29 utc | 184

@pretzelattack #181
I refer to the cover-up of nefarious activities, as you should well know.
Idiotic off-topic responses are not useful.

Posted by: C1ue | Aug 17 2019 17:32 utc | 185

@Jackrabbit #183
The operative word is: "if".
Presupposing support of an intel agency is, in this case, like asking someone if they beat their wife.
Secondly, someone who can spend tens of millions of dollars a year can buy plenty of support all on their own.
I have seen nothing so far which is both beyond the reach of such a wealthy individual and which just be an Intel agency's doing. The US government doesn't need cutouts to funnel money - there are myriad ways to do so ranging from Iran-Contra type setups to the BBG and NED.

Posted by: C1ue | Aug 17 2019 17:37 utc | 186

Cover Up? Epstein Shipped $100K Cement Mixer To 'Pedo Island' Weeks Before Crushing Exposé
he pedophile, who was found dead by apparent suicide on Saturday while awaiting trial for sex trafficking, got the Carmix 5.5 XL self loading concrete mixer delivered to Little St. James on November 7 last year.
Epstein was in such a hurry that he paid for the machine up front so it would arrive sooner - even though it meant being responsible if it got damaged in transit.
Three weeks later the Miami Herald published a series of articles called 'Perversion of Justice' on November 28, which eventually led to Epstein being arrested in July.
Shipping experts told DailyMailTV that the possibility that it was 'used to literally cover up evidence cannot be discounted'. -Daily Mail
Epstein and his "associates" obviously received advance notice of law enforcement and media events. Destruction of evidence was in full gear. The only hard and damning evidence with respect to power elite involved will have been long since destroyed, unless mistakes were made. Incompetence is everywhere, and we can always hope. Epstein knew it had hit the fan, well before landing in NJ. He was stunned by refusal of bail. He expected the fix was in. He was a man without courage, and would never have had the strength physically or emotionally to take his own life. The coroner's conclusion flies wildly in the face of the facts and is an insult to anyone with a modicum of intelligence. The group that control the winding down of activities on the island and elsewhere, and who manipulated the system to be able to walk into a high security federal prison and snuff an already sensationalized prisoner, is obviously exceptionally well leveraged in the system. It will take divine intervention to out any information regarding the debauchery of the power elite courtesy of Epstein's arrangements.

Posted by: Bruce | Aug 17 2019 17:43 utc | 187

I'm afraid a number of commentators are minimising Epstein's crimes by opening up the entirely inappropriate discussion of the difference between moral and legal, what the definition of paedophilia is, whether or not Epstein is a paedophile or not (he most definitely was) and there own personal life experiences (not interested). Of all the things to be discussing at this time!?!? This isn't NAMBLA!!!!

I have had disagreements with Jackrabbit in the past but I agree with him on this issue.

Commentators are (unwittingly or wittingly) minimising Epstein crimes. Please do not continue this line of discussion. What Epstein did was morally and legally wrong, a whitewashing process has begun, don't be part of it.

Posted by: ADKC | Aug 17 2019 17:46 utc | 188

C1ue | Aug 17 2019 17:37 utc | 188

- Acosta was told that "Epstein belonged to intelligence."

- Les Wexner and his MEGA Group is believed to have connections to Mossad.

- Ehud Barak had ties to Epstein.

- Ghislaine's father, Robert Maxwell, was an Israeli hero with ties to Mossad.

- The scale and scope of the Epstein gangs operations suggests an intelligence op.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

Even a billionaire would have difficulty escaping from a prison like MCC. But with CIA or Mossad's help, it's possible.

It's easy to quell such speculation: PRODUCE THE BODY.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 17:49 utc | 189

If the body has not already been cremated.

Posted by: lysias | Aug 17 2019 17:57 utc | 190

PRODUCE THE BODY? You mean produce the wax figure created by Madame Tussaud's, dont you JR? For once hatched a good conspiracy theory can never die, as you well know.

Why don't we have the corpse strung up along the Brooklyn Bridge like the CIA drug cartels do in Mexico? Great way to keep the peons in line off the streets and on the net where nothing is real and nothing to get hung about. Hahaha. "Nothing to get hung about."

Get it?

Posted by: donkeytale | Aug 17 2019 17:59 utc | 191

ADKC - I have and had *no* intentions of minimizing the crimes that Epstein and his "associates" have committed; that is your (mis)interpretation.

My objection was to the presumption that what the US considers to be "childhood" is a universal even among other western nations. It is not. Nor should it be - different cultures, different perspectives. The USA's is no more the correct view than any other country's cultural norm (and it wasn't always the cultural norm within US borders that the age of sexual consent began at 18). It was and remains that overweening belief on the part of some if not many Americans born and bred that what is considered "right" here should be "right" for everyone across the globe that gets up my nose. That indeed, the US perception *is* the correct perception.

Epstein's activities (and those who used the services of the young females he offered) were criminal under US law, possibly also under most nations' laws. All the more so if he trafficked human (female in this case) sex slaves (hardly workers if not their choice) - of whatever age they happened to be. In my book the age of the trafficked person is irrelevant to the criminality and abhorrence of the fact of human trafficking. Yes it is worse if they are children, or young adolescents. But the trafficked - and thus abused, raped - being older (whether of more European sexual maturity/consent age or American) does *not* make it less of a crime.

Posted by: AnneR | Aug 17 2019 18:06 utc | 192

Posted by: vk | Aug 17 2019 16:29 utc | 179

No. It depends on how your culture handles male sexuality.

Marrying women as soon as they are post puberty takes the strain from families to ensure their virginity.
Christian culture expects men to be able to suppress their sexuality, so there is no urge to marry women as soon as they are post puberty.

Marriage has always been connected with the means to do it.
European lower classes have been excluded from marrying for quite some time. It has got nothing to do with women working - servants would simply not marry at all. Even in the US today there is a class divide in marriage.

All the above has got nothing to do with the Epstein case - he and his enablers prostituted teenage girls.
This would be outlawed in any society including societes that marry their kids at a young age.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 17 2019 18:11 utc | 193

The term "intelligence" uses is "asset." Epstein was apparently an intelligence "asset." Once the operation was outed, assets become liabilities. Evidence was obviously destroyed and power elite who have been implicated have made denials and hired expensive legal counsel. Epstein was no longer an asset...he was not needed for anything else, not useful for anything else, and could implicate others or at least raise suspicions. The benefit to "intelligence" was in his destruction. He is not a Bond villain and he's clearly something of a fool. Even if he was stunned at refusal of bail, it would not have shown on the face of a capable intelligence operative. He is quite dead.

Posted by: Bruce | Aug 17 2019 18:15 utc | 194

obviously the pedophile tag around Epstein's neck is being bandied about in the vernacular. however, the criteria for pedophilia extend the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13, and since there are allegations out there of Jeff's abuse of at least one 13 year old girl, he could thus technically be a pedophile.

and aside from the romantic escapades of donkeytale and AnneR, we're not talking about an older man (well into his 40s and 50s in Epstein's case) who had the hots for one sweet young thing, but for dozens, if not for hundreds, regularly, over many years. and while certainly some of these girls knew what was going on, and certainly others who were even into it, the scope of the manipulation, domineering, psychological and physical abuse is pretty hair-raising.

i'll stick with the vernacular.

Posted by: john | Aug 17 2019 18:26 utc | 195

Bruce @196:

Epstein was no longer an asset...he was not needed for anything else, not useful for anything else, ... Even if he was stunned at refusal of bail, it would not have shown on the face of a capable intelligence operative

AFAIK, there are assets and operatives. Assets are expendable but operatives are "agents" and get full support.

Here's Epstein's reaction at the refusal of bail:
Epstein, appearing before the judge in a navy smock and brown T-shirt, appeared to have no visible reaction to the decision ordering him remanded to pre-trial detention. He was led off by marshals without speaking to his attorneys.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 18:29 utc | 196

john @197

I agree john.

When someone older than mid-twenties is obsessed with the very young, even if they are not pre-pubescent, then I think most agree that that qualifies as pedophilia.

In fact, most 'normal' men couldn't/wouldn't participate in such an activity, especially on a large scale, so maybe Epstein was chosen because he had such inclinations AND because it'd be easily to blame Epstein the pervert if it all fell apart. Which seems to be exactly what's happening.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 18:44 utc | 197

Jackrabbit@102 and other idiots
Ir is perfectly reasonable for people to object to the practice of sex between teenagers and persons older
than them.
But to call it pedophilia is deliberately to set out to confuse.
In this particular case, and in all cases which lead to those charged being held in custody, the effect of
this lie is to license thugs and prison officers to mistreat, perhaps murder them. Such threats lead in turn to
This happens with some regularity in the prison system. "Pedophiles" are regarded as fair game and one of the
reasons why they are is that people assume that those labelled 'pedos' have in fact sexually assaulted young children.
These facts are widely understood: those who persist in misusing the pedophile label may be assumed, therefore,
to be deliberately cheering on lynch mobs.
In this case whether or not Epstein was murdered, while guards looked the other way, or left to kill himself
after having been told that the only alternatives were worse, those labeling him a pedophile undoubtedly share the blame
That probably makes them feel important or powerful. But what it really makes them is accessories in a criminal system's
workings. That, for all their protestations of being 'revolutionaries' or opponents of the system, is what fascists always
are-pawns in the imperialists game, cheering on the violence, buying tickets for the Gladiator matches.
Show me a lie, constantly repeated and I'll show you a liar and a coward.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 17 2019 18:46 utc | 198

in that case i hope you refrain from further idiotic off topic responses, c1ue. try to make relevant ones. there is no counterpart in the iraq war, that was up front, and nobody important was prosecuted. didn't happen in the banking cases either. so the cases aren't comparable. the body showed several broken bones in the neck, according to original stories about the autopsy. i don't see why some on here are so reluctant to credit the u.s. with being willing to assassinate somebody and then cover it up.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 17 2019 18:47 utc | 199

no operatives don't get full support, witness valerie plame. depends on whether they are useful or not. epstein was a danger, and they didn't want him talking. they didn't want osama bin ladin talking either, which is why the seal team whacked him, then threw the body in the ocean with some bullshit about respect for traditions.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 17 2019 18:49 utc | 200

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