Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 16, 2019

Epstein Suicided - Thread 2

There are nearly 550 comments on the Epstein Suicided thread. A second one is thus justified.

As I did not follow the development of that case as diligently as some commentators here I have, for now, little to add.

The British Daily Mail reported that Epstein had this painting in his New York mansion.


One wonders if Bill and/or Hillary knew about it.

Please use this thread for the continuing discussion of the Epstein issue.

Posted by b on August 16, 2019 at 16:59 UTC | Permalink

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So many questions.... that I cannot even formulate after seeing that.

Posted by: Bevin Kacon | Aug 16 2019 17:03 utc | 1

It could be some kind of a trophy. It could be some kind of inside joke. The curious thing is the only discernible item on the bookshelf is JFK's visage.

Posted by: jayc | Aug 16 2019 17:06 utc | 2

I highly suggest checking this Twitter thread about the various Epstein black book entries. A veritable who's who on child abuse...

Posted by: Lozion | Aug 16 2019 17:08 utc | 3

The blue dress, and a pose that says, "I am Teflon, baby, untouchable."

Wouldn't someone like Epstein have an "insurance file" somewhere? Surely he must have known that the second he was no longer useful, he was done for, like Maxwell.

And maybe this has all been discussed before, but who issued the arrest warrant that caused him to be picked up at Teterboro? Sure seems like he didn't see the trap coming.

Posted by: c | Aug 16 2019 17:12 utc | 4

They must be scrubbing the properties before the searches of Jeffrey Epstein's houses and properties: Island searched a month after his arrest, Paris ,New Mexico, Palm Beach FL still not search, dozens of apts, condos and other properties in NYC/FL not searched.

Why would they do that? Because the interesting items found in NYC: fake passport, bags of diamonds, bundles of US cash blackmail docs etc.

And US AG/FBI or state law agencies don't care to question/arrest Ghislaine Maxwell.

Posted by: Jonny Law | Aug 16 2019 17:12 utc | 5

Here is a video showing the raid on Epstein's Little St. James Island home:

Apparently, the "watchers" don't like to be watched.

Posted by: Sally Snyder | Aug 16 2019 17:17 utc | 6

Could be bullshit with an amteurish photoshop job, but it's still funny.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Aug 16 2019 17:18 utc | 7

Ehud baraks 10 visits to Epstein clearly show him to be the mossad handler for the information Epstein had. Is trump a Manchurian candidate for Israel? He has handed over Jerusalem to the zios. And if so who is his handler?

Posted by: Anon | Aug 16 2019 17:20 utc | 8

The same source provided a photograph of Hillary in a very similar dress.

Posted by: Vonu | Aug 16 2019 17:20 utc | 9

Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 16:52 utc | 543--

I prefaced my comment with the phrase "From my perspective," which means exactly what it says meaning my opinion is not part of the media's or anyone else's!

Misrepresent my remarks again, and I'll lobby for your removal from this site! There's an excellent reason why I avoid discourse with you, and you've just shown it yet again!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 16 2019 17:30 utc | 10

The artist,Petrina Ryan-Kleid, says she painted it but is surprised to see it in that location....

Posted by: dh | Aug 16 2019 17:31 utc | 11

Recapitulating my previous comment:

All evidence points to the direction that Epstein was murdered.

Mainly for three reasons:

1) the people Epstein could incriminate and destroy were all extremely powerful, that is, people with the means (material and institutional) to murder him in a federal prison/custody;

2) false suicide inside a prison cell by hanging is not even a novelty: see Vladimir Herzog's case during Brazil's military dictatorship period;

3) contrary to other similar cases in magnitude of importance, the NYT and the Guardian were quick to declare his death as suicide and to dismiss doubters as "conspiracy theorists". That's not their M.O.s: they usually like to milk these kind of stories for maximum click bait effect, specially when it is Russia and China that are involved (two birds with one stone). It was only after overwhelming pressure from their respective readerships (and because WaPo didn't kind of entered in this scheme, so the triangulation effect was nulled) that they gave in a little bit and kind of covered the other side of the story. Since we know both the NYT and the Guardian consult with their respective governments before publishing any political article, we can infer from their behavior that the suicide is a cover up.

Now, we have this:

Autopsy Shows Bones in Jeffrey Epstein’s Neck Were Broken

The rest of the article only mentions that:

A medical examiner who performed the autopsy determined that Mr. Epstein had a broken hyoid bone, which is near the Adam’s apple, the person familiar with the report said.

I.e. it only mentions one broken bone.

However, as you can infer from the headline -- and also from the family members, who are quoted at the first paragraph -- mention more than one bone broken ("bones").

It is likely that more than one bone was broken in Epstein's neck. The quoted paragraph above doesn't mention only the hyoid bone was broken: it simply mentions that the hyoid bone was broken. That doesn't exclude the possibility that other bones were also broken.

The NYT probably manipulated the article in a manner that induces the average American reader to think Epstein most probably than not committed suicide.

Posted by: vk | Aug 16 2019 17:31 utc | 12

Tomorrow will mark a week since he died, and the FBI still don't know who found his body according to this report.

I don't believe that that is the level of competence in the FBI. I believe that the investigations are being purposefully hampered and slowed down. Slow everything down to a trickle until the public have accepted that they may never get an answer. Wait until the public have moved on to some other story and then shove the whole thing down the memory hole. I believe that is the modus operandi of the people in charge of these investigations.

The way to counter that policy, I think, is with patience.

Posted by: sea.and.slow | Aug 16 2019 17:37 utc | 13


re: the bone

Eugene Gu, MD @eugenegu
The hyoid bone is protected in the front and sides by the mandible and in the back by the spine. It is mobile. Less than 0.002% of fractures involve the hyoid. Only 31 cases of traumatic hyoid fracture other than strangulation have been documented. Jeffrey Epstein aint number 32.
10:31 AM · Aug 15, 2019

Posted by: b | Aug 16 2019 17:47 utc | 14

Where is the location shown in the painting? Presumably most likely to be either the White House or one of Epstein's properties.

The curious thing is the only discernible item on the bookshelf is JFK's visage.
Posted by: jayc | Aug 16 2019 17:06 utc | 2

It could be the bookcase just happens to have a bookend with a JFC design (is it really JFC? How can you tell?). The portrayal of the books appears specific rather than random. Maybe it is meant as a play on the threat of disclosing Clinton's "secret", but it's not a big deal, anyway. So Clinton has a fetish for wearing ladies clothes - probably no more than that. It does however imply very considerable intimacy with Epstein.

Posted by: BM | Aug 16 2019 17:49 utc | 15

Jake Morphonios has been doing great coverage of the Epstein saga.

Posted by: Stever | Aug 16 2019 17:52 utc | 16

@16 The photograph of the painting was taken by a visitor to Epstein's house.....according to the Daily Mail article. Also it's not clear if Bill Clinton made a habit of dressing up in women's clothes or if a certain amount of artistic licence was involved.

Posted by: dh | Aug 16 2019 18:06 utc | 17

I'd love to hear every thing that the artist has said about the painting, especially which photo of Bill's head she copied onto the female form depicted in the painting. Imo the arm to which the fist in front of Bill's chin is attached is slightly under-sized compared to the female torso and the female shins. There are standard proportions to the human form and the arm is out of sync with those and the partially hidden left arm.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Aug 16 2019 18:22 utc | 18

It's for sure a trophy, I said this to a friend when I first saw it. Clinton was his first big game hunt.

Posted by: sejomoje | Aug 16 2019 18:24 utc | 19

I've been following the Epstein suicide saga because as Craig Murray mentioned on Sunday it vividly illustrates the "sociopathy" of the rich and powerful. A pedophilia network tapped by Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew, to name but two, has now been exposed. What we need to keep our eye on here, regardless of foul play in Epstein's death, is that the U.S. Attorney in the Southern District of New York has all that he needs -- the names of Epstein's employees, the ones who administered the pedophilia network -- to roll up Epstein's clientele

At this point if U.S. Attorney Geoffrey Berman can't bag Dershowitz or Clinton, we know that the fix is in.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Aug 16 2019 18:49 utc | 20

Does anyone notice that Bill is making the sign of Horus in that panting...?

Posted by: Masher1 | Aug 16 2019 19:14 utc | 21

To Karl: thanks for the reply in the last thread.

To all: last I saw (at was that someone unknown had gotten the body (whoever that is) released from the coroner and have taken it away, as with seemingly anything it might not be true.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 16 2019 19:18 utc | 22

I've been told by people in law enforcement who have allegedly witnessed public executions or covered suicides by hanging, that the placement of the 'hangman's knot' must be properly fitted so that when the neck of the victim is snapped, thus causing death instantly. If improperly placed, the victim will suffer slow strangulation. Most attempted suicides by hanging usually end up strangling themselves because they have to improvise. In Epstein's case the need to improvise would account for the appearance of strangulation on the body. Sometimes life and death issues can be a tad grim.

Posted by: GeorgeV | Aug 16 2019 19:20 utc | 23

Barak was chief of Aman, the intelligence directorate of the Israeli Defense Force, from 1983 to 1985. Could that have been when Epstein's operation was organixed?

Posted by: lysias | Aug 16 2019 19:22 utc | 24

Bevin Kacon @ 1

Comes under the heading: once you've seen it, you can't un-see it.
Thankful it's a knee length dress.

Posted by: RF | Aug 16 2019 19:22 utc | 25

Have to agree with #7, the photo editing seems obvious to me, but then, I do it all the time. Shadows are wrong.

Posted by: Bardi | Aug 16 2019 19:23 utc | 26

karlof1 @10

OMG! I didn't misrepresent what you said. "Aligned with" doesn't mean that you fully agree or have the same agenda as the media.

But your reply indicates that the points I made have not moved you whatsoever. Thanks for letting us know where you stand.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 19:25 utc | 27

Fully agree with those who think this piece of sh!t was 'suicided'. But... He wasn't a dumb idiot, so he MUST have had a dead man's switch in palace. A week have passed and nothing happened. Ergo the motherf*cker is still alive.

Posted by: 2TricksPony | Aug 16 2019 19:25 utc | 28

Reminiscent of Monica Lewinsky’s Blue Dress, minus the stains. Another Mossad op orchestrated by her handler Linda Tripp. Creepy.

Posted by: Uncle Jon | Aug 16 2019 19:31 utc | 29

*... a dead man's switch in place...

Damn autocorrect.

Posted by: 2TricksPony | Aug 16 2019 19:31 utc | 30

Mike Maloney@21 demonstrates perfectly why killing Epstein is so useful: Now Epstein will not exculpate *anyone* and everyone can pretend all these allegations are truth! And nothing but the truth! And LOCK HER UP!

The case against Robert Maxwell seems to fairly widely accepted, but note that no one claims the Mossad paid Maxwell billions. Quite the contrary. The Mossad didn't pay his daughter or her late friend billions either. As for Ghislaine being Mossad, I am not aware that being an agent for anybody is hereditary, an item in the estate or something that Robert wrote into his contract. This very much smacks of some covert "all Jews..." thinking. As for the idea that Epstein made millions by prostituting girls, no, the money's not that big. Nor is it very likely at all that the money in extortion is all that big, plus the idea rich and powerful men wouldn't have had Epstein killed with a car wreck, or a plane crash, or a botched robbery or an untimely heart attack is...well, long past time to say, stupid.

As for blackmail materials, the last thing people want is proof of innocence or even mere exculpatory evidence. All blackmail materials would be lodged with attorneys, where it's protected by privilege. Blackmail materials left lying around in safes is just leaving evidence for the search warrant. The thing is, even those blackmail materials are for sale by the attorneys. Even attorneys are not entirely shielded by privilege, leaving a sufficiently powerful alleged victim of Epstein. Almost certainly all the alleged materials (existence not proven till showed in court in a media frenzy by the way,) were for personal recreation of an unpleasant man. At this point it isn't clear that Epstein always had sex with physically mature females whom he always, always paid.

The 2008 arrest and trial appears to have been aimed at Clinton. The do over appears to have been aimed at Clinton. The apparent murderer is not likely to benefit blackmail victims whose existence have yet to be proved. But the people who put in in prison to be a target are the ones to look at, and that means the federal government. Cui bono? Ultimately Trump. The pedophile Democrat Party is a lurid fantasy. Pedophilia like charity begins at home (God help us!) Imagining rings of rich people is mostly about scapegoating.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Aug 16 2019 19:31 utc | 31

From one article, it appears the gesture of Clinton is an allusion to the famous "I Want You" conscription one.

The blue dress is Hillary's

Posted by: Mina | Aug 16 2019 20:01 utc | 32

Sally S #6 totally agree the place is being scrubbed clean. Good video thanks for posting....

Posted by: Dennis18 | Aug 16 2019 20:05 utc | 33

That, just, wow.

Posted by: OutOfThinAir | Aug 16 2019 20:05 utc | 34

On the radio today I heard a preacher give an evangelically informed assessment of
the Epstein corpse. He said Jeffery’s being is currently and everlastingly experiencing the torment of a shish-ka-bob in hell, praise the lawd. (He was a preacher, so he can get away with graceless and rude remarks.)

This clever theological hobo added that the whole thing about shish-ka-bobbing in hell is that you can’t croak, and that’s the hell of it, since croaking would not do you much good. It’s far, far too late to accept Jesus as your personal savior. Read John 3:16.

One milli-second of sizzling in hell takes a decade. All the while you are cursing your mother for ever being born.

He concluded by mentioning that sodomy includes hand-jobs and blow-jobs which lead to complete gratification, but I don’t want to go into prurient details.

Posted by: A. Person | Aug 16 2019 20:08 utc | 35

Berman was bringing a case that couldn't go anywhere. Either his puppeteer(s) initiated that or he severely miscalculated: in any case, he's a tool. Dead or alive, it's still a case that can't go anywhere. Yet, it seems to have a gravity that sucks all the oxygen right out of all the rooms...

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 20:20 utc | 36

A. Person | Aug 16 2019 20:08 utc | 36--

Interesting, so there's porn radio now?!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 16 2019 20:21 utc | 37

I would like to view every artwork in every one of Epstein's abodes. I suspect that a few more related deaths are underway or planned.

A dead mans handle is only as reliable as the hands of the successor and in this business I would not be counting on it. Its a bit like relying on the Intercept to be Edward Snowden's dead mans hand.

I support the 'murdered' theory as the ceilng in the cell is reputedy approximately 2.5m or 9 feet. And likely has no hanging points. (I recall Corbett Report relaying the extreme rarity of suicides in that prison.) Also there would have been some serious yelling and screaming at the time unless he was drugged first through his meal. The photos on the gurney show he was strangled by some means.

The fix will sure be in by now and I guess it will sail on by as a slightly improved version of the Skripal baloney in the UK. Already the Epstein lawyers have appointed a totally disreputable fixer to observe the autopsy.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Aug 16 2019 20:33 utc | 39

Bullshit it was in Epstein's apartment. The deep state/intel is mocking you.

They are laughing in your face and deepening their hold on your psyche.

And still no proof Epstein is dead, despite the sayanim who keep saying it.

Posted by: C I eh? | Aug 16 2019 20:38 utc | 41

Barak was chief of Aman, the intelligence directorate of the Israeli Defense Force, from 1983 to 1985. Could that have been when Epstein's operation was organixed?

@Posted by: lysias | Aug 16 2019 19:22 utc | 25

It does not seem that could be the case, since the outcome of the "operation" clearly benefitts Trump, and through him, Netanyahu.

Netanyahu keeps in power in the tight rope, and it was announce that Barak retunrs to politics some weeks ago...before this came into light...

Add to this that almost the whole "alt-media", which previously supported Trump during the 2016 election, are out there in coordianted effort to whithewash Trump from this, in spite of the obvious connections, and well, I do not need to scratch my head far beyond...

Barak could well be thinking of finishing that madness of the "Deal of the Century" ( if not out of considering it unfitting with any possible peaceful future for Israel ) in which the Trump family has placed so much hopes for personal enrichment and unending source of financing of their "entrepenuerial and real state adventures", especially when they go badly...

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 16 2019 20:41 utc | 42

I dunno about Epstein, but I think its fair to say that most everyone involved in upper levels of Western democratic leadership and culture is either up to no good or enabling those who are.

And who are their opponents? Oh yeah, theocracies and strongmen.

Where do folks go for voluntary taxation? Utopia?

Posted by: OutOfThinAir | Aug 16 2019 20:41 utc | 43

Come on... that painting has to be one the funniest things I had ever seen. An homage to the farcical nature that is politics and politicians. A big F.U. to the viewer that are just plebes and serfs and a twisted inside joke for the rulers. With Maxwell hanging out at In and Out and now this painting one can't help but wonder if the rulers are now openly mocking the masses in their gullibility and stupidity and just playing a sick game with us.

Posted by: O | Aug 16 2019 20:43 utc | 44

Epstein did not attempt suicide on July 23. More likely he was strangled by his cellmate.

Epstein told lawyers that cellmate Nicholas Tartaglione ‘roughed him up’ - NY Post, August 14, 2019

Jeffrey Epstein told his lawyers that a hulking ex-cop inflicted the injuries that left him nearly unconscious in his cell last month, a source close to the convicted pedophile’s case told The Post.

Epstein was treated for neck injuries following the July 23 incident inside the Metropolitan Correctional Center in lower Manhattan, law enforcement officials have said.

At the time, Epstein was sharing a cell with former Westchester County cop Nicholas Tartaglione, who faces a death penalty trial in four drug-related slayings upstate.

Epstein told his lawyers that “the cop roughed him up, and that’s why they got him off suicide watch,” the source said.

Nicholas Tartaglione has the muscle to strangle Epstein with his bare hands. He also has little to lose from killing Epstein. On the contrary, his status in the prison system would greatly improve.

Prosecutors to seek death penalty for ex-cop in quadruple homicide - NY Post, March 21, 2019

The U.S. Attorney’s Office in Manhattan confirmed it will demand former officer Nicholas charged with killing Martin Luna, Urbano Santiago, Miguel Luna and Hector Gutierrez when a drug money transaction went bad, be put to death if found guilty.

The feds claim Tartaglione and Rockland County resident Joseph Biggs lured Martin Luna to the Likquid Lounge in Chester, NY, to find stolen cocaine money and ended up killing Luna and the other three men, whom he brought for protection.

The British Daily Mail has more on the quadruple murder. Some interesting looking characters.

School security guard, 55, is arrested for 'aiding ex-cop in drug-related quadruple murder'

Eventually, all four men were murdered. It's unclear how Martin Luna was killed, but the other three men died of bullet wounds to the back of their heads 'purely because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time...

Prosecutors say Tartaglione then drove the four bodies to his farm about 30 minutes away and buried them in a wooded area.

Investigators gathered enough evidence to arrest Tartaglione on December 19 for conspiracy to distribute more than 11 pounds of cocaine. The following day, police used a backhoe to excavate the bodies from Tartaglione's property.

Tartaglione and Biggs now face a slew of charges including multiple counts of murder, kidnapping resulting in death, conspiracy to distribute cocaine, and weapons charges.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Aug 16 2019 20:44 utc | 45

Bullshit it was in Epstein's apartment. The deep state/intel is mocking you.
Posted by: C I eh? | Aug 16 2019 20:38 utc | 41
I think you might be right.

Posted by: O | Aug 16 2019 20:44 utc | 46

One amazing thing is the lack of official stories and sources. A lot of what we're getting is unnamed sources. Is this what passes for transparency and investigative journalism these days?

Posted by: Curtis | Aug 16 2019 20:47 utc | 47

You know Trump is going to have field day with this one. Like a crazy pro wrestling plotline.

Posted by: O | Aug 16 2019 20:48 utc | 48

Mike Maloney@21

What Epstein is said to have done has nothing to do with pedophilia, apart from the fact that it suggests that he was not likely to have been involved in it.
So far as the evidence goes Epstein was no more interested in pre-pubescent children than he was in sheep: he was clearly obsessed with nubile young women and very successful in seducing them. You may not like it but that is not pedophilia, any more than it is bestiality.
There is a racist, specifically anti-semitic, sub-text in these charges which gybe with the common anti-islamic "grooming" of "white girls" slander.
It is only because Florida and other US jurisdictions maintain the peculiar doctrine that persons cannot decide whether to engage in sexual activity until they are 18 (a doctrine more honoured in the breach than the observance) that it is possible for lazy writers to add the charge of 'pedophilia' to the various prostitution related charges preferred against him.
In most countries the age of consent is between 14 and 16. But pedophilia specifically refers to the perverse practise of entering into sexual relations with children. The median age at which puberty is attained in the United States seems to be somewhere between 9 and 14 for girls.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 16 2019 20:50 utc | 49

Posted by: bevin | Aug 16 2019 20:50 utc | 49
Here you go again trying to defend the indefensible. Are you trying to justify your own sick desires?

Posted by: O | Aug 16 2019 20:54 utc | 51

@ O | Aug 16 2019 20:54 utc

The term pedophilia specifically applies to pre-pubescent children. If you're talking about teenage girls who have hit puberty and are under majority age, you're not talking about pedophilia. Maybe investigate what the term actually means?

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 21:01 utc | 52

Assuming that The Daily Mail article is correct and that its source/s (who is/are anonymous) can be verified independently), I for one would be curious to know if Epstein had the painting placed in his mansion in such a way as to suggest to visitors that they were under surveillance. The painting indicates that not even a US President or his secrets can escape scrutiny and the hand pointing directly at viewers is telling them they are also being watched.

Of course I acknowledge this is a case of confirmation bias on my part but that painting seems symbolic of a blackmail operation Epstein must have been running.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 16 2019 21:06 utc | 53

bevin @49:

It is only because Florida and other US jurisdictions maintain the peculiar doctrine that persons cannot decide whether to engage in sexual activity until they are 18 ...

Once again, we see downplaying of Epstein's crimes.

It's strange that you take others to task for inaccuracies while promoting an inaccuracy yourself.

The law doesn't prevent people under 18 from having sex, it prevents people over-18 from preying on them. Which is exactly what Epstein+Ghislaine did. But they E+G also trafficked the women.

<> <> <> <> <> <> <>

The propaganda campaign to excuse what Epstein did has been relentless. IMO anyone still spouting those themes is suspect.

> Biology doesn't excuse Epstein.

> That intelligence agencies use "honey pots" (aka, "someone's gonna do it") doesn't excuse Epstein.

> That some cultures allow older men to bed/wed young women doesn't excuse Epstein.

> That the women need the money, doesn't excuse Epstein.

> That wealth, powerful men have historically taken advantage of women, doesn't excuse Epstein.

> That others covered for Epstein, doesn't excuse Epstein.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 21:08 utc | 54

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 21:01 utc | 52
Taking advantage of a minor is wrong no matter if they hit puberty or not. Why can't sickos like you and Bevin understand that?

Posted by: O | Aug 16 2019 21:09 utc | 55

@o do u realise you are up in 'someones' grill
Almost every post b makes since u just recently joined the bar eh. Bevins point while distasteful to some isnt wrong. You dont add anyhing to the discussion. Maybe just say nothing then

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 16 2019 21:10 utc | 56

Bevin and Anacharis remind of the David Woodersons of the world.

Posted by: O | Aug 16 2019 21:13 utc | 57

@ Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 21:08 utc

Note who bevin is addressing: "Mike Maloney@21".

No where in "bevin | Aug 16 2019 20:50 utc" do I see a downplaying of Epstein's crimes.

Merely pointing out that people get hung up on the sensational parts while being distracted from the deeper criminal aspect of it all is not the same as excusing Epstein.

Seriously already...

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 21:22 utc | 58

Bevin @ 49, Anacharsis @ 52:

It's not unusual these days for girls, especially girls of particular ethnic groups that have historically lived in places with warm tropical to sub-tropical climates, to begin puberty as early as the age of eight years. Would you still be prepared to defend sexual intercourse with a girl of that age who has begun menstruating as not being paedophilia? Would girls even as old as 14 years of age who are menstruating be considered psychologically mature enough to be able to consent to sexual intercourse of their own free will with sexual partners more than 5 years their senior? The issue of paedophilia is as much concerned about a young person's ability and level of psychological maturity to make independent decisions in a context free from coercion or exploitation based on class and inequality.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 16 2019 21:24 utc | 59

@ Jen | Aug 16 2019 21:24 utc

This is exactly why I generally refrain from pointing out the precise meaning of this term. But I assumed we could have an intelligent, adult discussion here, of all places.

There is a difference between pedophilia and the charge of statutory rape, and I don't think that needs to be explained further. [Addressed generally: Just because people use precise terms should not open them to insult.]

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 21:33 utc | 60

Check out this video of the MCC SHU jail cell at 2:40 into the video. No one could hang themselves from
that bunk bed. It is 50/50 now Epstein was either killed or escaped. What is absolutely clear is the
collosal snow job that we are being subjected to by the mass media.

Posted by: evilempire | Aug 16 2019 21:36 utc | 61

Apologies bevin. Let me correct my entry to read "child sex network" instead of "pedophilia network."

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Aug 16 2019 21:38 utc | 62

b @15

The central thread of John le Carre's book "Call For the Dead" is resolved when an intelligence "asset" suddenly becomes a liability, and is silently murdered by her panicked handler with "a singular degree of pressure applied to the hyoid bone" . Life imitates Art?

Posted by: eps | Aug 16 2019 21:38 utc | 63

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 21:33 utc | 61

Epstein’s claim attempted to undermine the testimonies of the more than 80 women who have come forward to say that Epstein molested them when they were girls. Some of the women say they were as young as 13 when the predations began.“The women who went to Jeffrey Epstein’s mansion as girls tend to divide their lives into two parts: life before Jeffrey and life after Jeffrey,” Brown noted“He ruined my life and a lot of girls’ lives,” said Michelle Licata, another of Epstein’s alleged victims.

I am sure these women today could give a rat's ass about the legalize and splitting of hairs you are spouting. They were taken advantage of as minors, something Epstein and Maxwell knew was wrong if they had a sense of decency or morality.

Posted by: O | Aug 16 2019 21:40 utc | 64

Posted by: O | Aug 16 2019 21:40 utc

"They were taken advantage of as minors, something Epstein and Maxwell knew was wrong if they had a sense of decency or morality."

--I agree.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 21:46 utc | 65

@66 Ditto

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 16 2019 21:54 utc | 66

Anacharsis @59:

No where in "bevin | Aug 16 2019 20:50 utc" do I see a downplaying of Epstein's crimes.

Well, maybe you believe, as bevin appears to, that its fine for men of advanced age to have sexual relations with post-mentral women of any age. So the State of Florida is wrong not to allow a 37 year old man to prey upon 14 year old women?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 21:54 utc | 67


See 61, and I'm sure your logic machine will kick on soon and you'll see what you wrote in 68 is illogical given what I've said.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 22:01 utc | 68

@JR. Pointing out the letter of the law is hardly thinking/suggesting what you suggest. You know this. Get over yourself.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 16 2019 22:01 utc | 69

@62 evilempire

Excellent find - they ruled it a hanging by tying the "sheet" to the bed, but how? Also the sheets are like paper, to prevent this sort of thing.

Posted by: Stever | Aug 16 2019 22:10 utc | 70

The uncensored comments on this blog puts it far ahead of Nakedcapitalism (NC), whose intolerance for Wrongthink is positively 1984ish. Push back against aspects of the standard Epstein narrative and your comment goes into the memory hole, even while NC bemoans, as it did the other day, that Epstein coverage shows a lack of "critical thinking, and the decline of reporting".

First of all, Epstein is almost by definition a sociopath – you don't otherwise get to be so rich – but he's not, as a few on this thread have correctly noted, a "pedophile", which is defined as attraction to prepubescent children.

Why does this matter? Because if you want to define attraction to girls "as young as 14" as "pedophilia" then the vast majority of men are "pedophiles." The average age of marriage for millennia was 12 or 14 for girls and 19 to 21 for males, notes one academic review. What do you think the reaction would be if you strapped plethysmographs (they measure penile tumescence) on a bunch of average guys and showed them videos of 14-year-old girls going at it with gusto? The ethics of such relations are another discussion, but the desire is wired-in.

Pedophilia is rare. If the Epstein kompromat operation were so pitched, it wouldn't be able to get much dirt. Adult male attraction to 14-year-old girls-on-up isn't remotely a mental disorder – it's too common. As Yale psychiatrist Richard Green titled one of his journal articles, "Sexual Preference for 14-Year-Olds as a Mental Disorder: You Can’t Be Serious!!"

Second of all, the money grab over the Epstein estate means we'll never know the truth of what happened. You either have a truth commission or you have stories shaped and warped to extort million$ – like two of Epstein's alleged flute girls claiming gropes and demanding $100 million.

On NC yesterday one pearl-clutching commenter said how much the l'affaire Epstein troubled her even more than the Iraq war. The hyperbolization of distasteful sexual liaisons with young would-be "models" and "masseurs" so that these acts tower over the deaths of 100,000s of brown people shows how much Western neoliberal sensibilities haven't evolved far beyond Jim Crow.

That NC feels the need to censor critique like this shows how, where the emotional rubber meets the road, it's a neoliberal mouthpiece.

Posted by: gwilliard | Aug 16 2019 22:11 utc | 71

Tannenhouser @70:

Pointing out the letter of the law is hardly thinking/suggesting what you suggest.

No, Tannenhouser, bevin is not just pointing out the letter of the law. He deriding the law and deliberately ignoring what the intent of the law is.

Sorry, but I've a number of people doing the exact same thing on several occasions since Epstein was arrested. They deride the law and point to biology. But they ignore the fact that teens can have sex with other teens and even when someone that's 18, 19, or 20 has sex with teens it's often not prosecuted.

The law is designed to prevent older people from preying on the young.

It's somewhat similar to laws against elder abuse. Unscrupulous people with often try to take advantage of people at a vulnerable age or in a vulnerable position.

It a REAL law with a clear and beneficial social purpose. To deride the law and ignore the purpose is just pro-Epstein propaganda.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 22:13 utc | 72

BREAKING: Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide overnight, according to two law enforcement sources.

He was taken from the Metropolitan Correctional Center at 3:30am Saturday morning in cardiac arrest and died at an area hospital, the sources told CNN.

— Ana Cabrera (@AnaCabrera) August 10, 2019

I just noticed that the time stamp on this tweet from Ana Cabrera is 6:32 am. Two minutes after the guards found Epstein according to the official story. And more than an hour before he was declared dead.

Posted by: sea.and.slow | Aug 16 2019 22:20 utc | 73

gwilliard @72

Your comment is actually in poor taste. Here's why:

1) That's men are attracted to 14 and 15 year old women is a "fun fact" but the statutory rape law is meant to protect them from being prayed up by much older men.

Studies show that the human brain isn't fully developed until the early twenties.

2) The women weren't just playthings, they were trafficked by what appears to be a global conspiracy.

3) The women were threatened. Maybe you haven't read/heard their testimonies that show how fearful they were.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 22:22 utc | 74


Correction, that is wrong.
It's been a long day and I'm forgetting that the timezone difference.

Posted by: sea.and.slow | Aug 16 2019 22:25 utc | 75

I have obviously not read the whole thread of 500+ comments on Epstein case, of course, lack the time, and even the interest to do it, but read these past days, I do not recall now where, that the coroner who was called for examination of Epstein "corpse" was the same implied in the JFK assasination´s autopsy...

This way, all gets at home, doesn´t it?

While you discuss Epstein, you are not aware of what is coming....and that you, most,( well, not you 24/7 here, of course...)lack even vacation...

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 16 2019 22:34 utc | 76

Taking advantage of underage girls does not = pedophilia.
The latter is a sexual attraction to and having sex with *children**.

Stop muddying the waters.
Stop being such a finger wagger at those who you say "excuse Epstein." You are putting words into others' mouths and acting like some kind of language enforcer.

Stop accusing those who are actually using language precisely from thereby approving of Epstein's crimes. Or of Epstein. it's jsut that so far I for one have seen no evidence that he was a pedophile. Like nubile young woman does not make one a pedophile. He may have been a sadist; he seems to have raped some of them and exerted extreme control over them. Those are crimes of some kind not sure of the legal definition. That still does not make him a pedophile if these girls were not children. I have a feeling that the word "pedophile" is being bandied about because commenters aren't sure of the actual legal name of Epstein's actual transgressions.

So, they have to label him with something and are using "pedophile" as a handy shortcut to increase his general monstrosity while no one is actually sure what he was up to aside from his sexual peccadilloes. How the latter intersect with some other agenda such as blackmail and intelligence. Same goes for the MSM.

Bandying around false charges and falsities generally: These are what actually can end up helping the miscreant. Look at how Trump has been helped by the false Russiagate accusations.

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 16 2019 22:35 utc | 77

Anyway, when you have representatives, of the GOP, who think seriously that humanity depends on rape and incest....what to expect?..

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 16 2019 22:38 utc | 78

Jeff Epstein Crime Map is quite interesting.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 16 2019 22:59 utc | 79

Really?? @ 78: Epstein did have sex with children, pubescent children. That's what the entire legal case is about. If anyone is finger-wagging it's the commentators who are acting as if they've struck a mighty blow for truth and integrity by pointing out that pedophilia is sexual attraction with a pre-pubescent child.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Aug 16 2019 22:59 utc | 80

Really?? @78

I agree that "pedophile" is used to direct people's attention to Epstein as a monster.

But to deride the law that protects young people from predators while doing is making a error that makes Epstein into less of a criminal than he is.

And, in case you have followed MoA closely, the intent of the law has been explained here several times. And I have specifically responded to bevin's coloring of the Epstein case at least twice before today.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 23:00 utc | 81

Legal Definition of a Child. Just Google it the Wikipedia entry will pop up:

The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child defines child as "a human being below the age of 18 years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier". This is ratified by 192 of 194 member countries. ... In U.S. Immigration Law, a child refers to anyone who is under the age of 21.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Aug 16 2019 23:06 utc | 82

I should note that Partisan Girl, now Syrian Girl, has turned her energies to all things Epstein. She's relentless!

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 16 2019 23:10 utc | 83

@ Bevin #49

"It is only because Florida and other US jurisdictions maintain the peculiar doctrine that persons cannot decide whether to engage in sexual activity until they are 18"

Not true. In my state of Iowa the age of consent is 16 as it is in c. 30 other states. It is also 16 in Florida. Epstein was charged with violations of Federal law--which laws can include offenses like interstate trafficking of minors, pornography with minors, online solicitation of minors, etc.--which define a minor as anyone younger than 18.

In those states it is perfectly legal for a 50 yr old to have sex with a 16 yr old as long as there is no federal law violation. There are some state exceptions such as a student-teacher relationship.

Posted by: sleepy | Aug 16 2019 23:10 utc | 84

israelis arrested for running child sex ring in Colombia

Posted by: abee | Aug 16 2019 23:19 utc | 85

@ sleepy | Aug 16 2019 23:10 utc

Good luck amidst the howler monkeys.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 23:23 utc | 86

@ sleepy
@ anacharsis

so you would be fine if your 16 yr old daughter starts sleeping w/ a 50 yr old ?

Posted by: abee | Aug 16 2019 23:32 utc | 87

I have serious doubts about the Medical Examiner's conclusion.

Just doesn't feel right: too much weird coincidence, too much propaganda (even at MoA).

How do we know it was Epstein's body that was examined? AFAIK, the only ID was by Epstein's brother. And the medical examiner hired by Epstein's attorneys (Dr Michael Baden) is notorious for stitch-ups (for example, he supported the 'single bullet' theory of the Kennedy assassination).

What was the missing information that caused a delay in the ME report? Receipt of a large payment to an overseas account?

"Suicide" was determined despite revelations in the last couple of days that point to murder. Indeed, we don't know why ME can say "suicide" with any certainty. Why not label cause of death as "undetermined (suspicious)"?

Five categories constitute the possibilities for the manner of death: natural, accident, suicide, homicide, and undetermined. The forensic manner of death is not legally binding for law enforcement or prosecution but is a crucial part of fact-finding in criminal investigations.

But then the body might not be released for burial/cremation as some sort of inquest would have to be held. (I'd bet the body will be cremated asap).

Where's the body now? When will the full report be released?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 23:32 utc | 88

Epstein was not the guy on the gurney, look at the nose and the ear. Looks like the old switcheroo to me. Looks more like Anthony Bordain.

Posted by: Robert Browning | Aug 16 2019 23:36 utc | 89

Somewhere Epstein is laughing it up with Khashoggi about how easily people are fooled. They no longer require evidence. Just someone saying something is true is enough. After all, how could anyone get away with a lie with all the shrewd journalists around who are motivated only by reporting truth. Lol

Of course, maybe he is dead. But you know his death was arranged from the top. Who benefits? Bet you wont see any paintings portraying Trump in an unfavorable light. Thats not because they don't exist. The Feds had Epstein under their care. They will also sanitize the evidence. The evidence will be used against selected individuals who have fallen out of favor. Those in favor will be protected with the evidence buried, at least as long as they play along and obey the illuminated masters

Posted by: Pft | Aug 16 2019 23:42 utc | 90

@ abee | Aug 16 2019 23:32 utc

If I live in a place where the legal age of consent is 16, I don't have any LEGAL recourse against that, do I? (LEGALLY it makes no difference that I would be opposed.)

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 16 2019 23:48 utc | 91

karlof1 @84:

Partisan Girl, now Syrian Girl, has turned her energies to all things Epstein.

She concludes by saying that Epstein's death is not the real story, he was killed to cover-up the real story: that the Western world's elite has been compromised by Mossad.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 16 2019 23:54 utc | 92

Too many "untouchables" involved, they'll never face justice..

Posted by: ben | Aug 16 2019 23:58 utc | 93

@82 JRabbit
"But to deride the law that protects young people from predators while doing is making a error that makes Epstein into less of a criminal than he is."

Those are your words, not mine.
There you go again, putting your words into others' mouths.
I wonder whether that syndrome has a name.
And, you use the phrase "young people" to erase the difference between a pubescent girl and a prepubescent child.

I did not deride any law that is there to protect young people of any age. I said there is a difference between being attracted to nubile girls and being attracted to prepubescent children, i.e., being a pedophile. As others have pointed out. Merriam-Webster defines "pedophile" as one suffering from pedophilia. M-W defines the latter as "paraphillia in which children are the preferred sexual object." M-W defines "paraphillia" as "a preference for or addiction to unusual sexual practices."

As many here have noted, an attraction to nubile young women is not unusual and would be considered normal sexual feelings in many males. That doesn't mean that giving in to that attraction is acceptable, moral---or legal. Of course it is wrong and it is a crime and girls should be protected from older men. (Hmmm, I wonder how many women there may be commenting here who have been the object of an older man's interest, such as a teacher.) It may also connote immaturity and inability to have a normal relationship with a woman of an appropriate age, among other things. It may indicate all kinds of problems. But it is not the same as preferring a *prepubescent* sexually undeveloped child as a sex object. That is is pedophilia and it is a form of paraphillia.

Posted by: Really?? | Aug 17 2019 0:13 utc | 94

If you want the full story Whitney Webb is the best writing on epstien

Posted by: bob | Aug 17 2019 0:22 utc | 95

Shubox at ZeroHedge asks:

If he wanted to die why didn't he let the Cop cellmate kill him the first time?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 0:25 utc | 96

Really?? @95

You didn't say it, you defended the guy who did.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 0:26 utc | 97

@JR. Nope sorry I dont aee it that way. Not once did I get the impression that they were apologising for the actions. Just detailing the facts. At this point JE actions were not those of a pedophile by definition. For sure JE is a scumbag and so are the other ones in the black book as well as many who arent in the book.However......their points about age of consent are valid no matter how distastful to myself, you or others they may be.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 17 2019 0:31 utc | 98

However......their points about age of consent are valid no matter how distastful to myself, you or others they may be.
Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 17 2019 0:31 utc | 99

This is a bunch of hair splitting nonsense but I guess that how lawyers like Alan Dershowitz make a living. All those girls where children some as young as 13 and none were at the age of consent according to federal law.
Section 2422(a) of Title 18 prohibits anyone from knowingly persuading, inducing, enticing or coercing an individual to travel in interstate or foreign commerce with the purpose of engaging in prostitution or any criminal sexual activity, or attempting to do so, and imposes a maximum punishment of 10 years' imprisonment and/or a fine under Title 18.

Section 2422(b) of Title 18 provides that if the individual who has been persuaded, induced, enticed, or coerced to engage in prostitution or other criminal sexual act is under the age of 18, then the penalty is 15 years imprisonment and/or a fine.

Posted by: O | Aug 17 2019 0:44 utc | 99

Tannenhouser @99

You are mistaken and I suggest you look back at the comments.

1) bevin says: Florida and other US jurisdictions maintain the peculiar doctrine that persons cannot decide whether to engage in sexual activity until they are 18.

In fact, teens CAN engage in sex before they are 18 (and often do) - but adults that engage in sex with teens (especially if the adult is much older than 18) are committing statutory rape.

Bevin (and others) that attacking the law on a biological while ignoring the law's intent are attempting to MINIMIZE Epstein's crime.

Statutory rape is not a minor crime like jaywalking, or a "victimless crime" like insurance fraud.

2) I'm not the only on that took issue with bevin's comment.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Aug 17 2019 0:45 utc | 100

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