Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 31, 2019

Violent 'Color Revolution' In Hong Kong Fails Despite Strong NYT Support

When the U.S. instigates its so called 'color revolutions', the transatlantic main stream media are usually supportive. But the support is rarely as extreme as the extraordinary one the New York Times gives to the rioters in Hong Kong.

For the timeline we check with Wikipedia on the 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests:

Demonstrations against the bill first occurred in March and April, but greatly expanded in scale and intensity beginning in June. At least 240,000 people (up to one million according to organisers) marched in protest of the bill on 9 June.
...
Chief Executive Carrie Lam suspended the extradition bill on 15 June and further declared it to be "dead" on 9 July.

Shortly before the first large demonstrations against a proposed amendment to an exiting extradition bill, the New York Times gave space to one (in)famous 'political activist' from Hong Kong. On June 4 one Ray Wong Toi-yeung wrote on the Times opinion pages:

When the tanks rolled into Tiananmen Square in Beijing on June 4, 1989, many Hong Kongers watched in horror on their TVs. A few days before, one million of them had marched in solidarity with the rebellious Chinese gathered in the square to ask for more liberalism and democracy from the Chinese authorities. Thirty years on, it is Hong Kong that is fighting for democratic values — for its very political survival, actually — against another onslaught by the same Communist government in Beijing.

Wong, who now lives in Germany, was a leader of the 2014 Umbrella movement, also known as the (NED Financed) Hong Kong Riots. He was since with several other anti-mainland organizations in Hong Kong. In 2016 he was seen in secret meetings with U.S. consulate staff.

Other Hong Kong protest organizers and supporters were given op-ed space in the Times on June 10, June 15, June 17 and June 28. Supportive editorials were published on June 10, June 13 and June 17.

On June 30 an op-ed by one Fred Chan Ho-fai (later updated) attempted to justify the rioters violence:

An important idea that has been circulating in online forums is now firmly planted in my mind. It is called the Marginal Violence Theory (暴力邊緣論), and it holds that protesters should not actively use or advocate violence, but instead use the most aggressive nonviolent actions possible to push the police and the government to their limits.

This is what some protesters have been doing today, July 1, on the anniversary of the handover of Hong Kong to China from Britain in 1997. After a ceremony marking the anniversary, a group of protesters have stormed the Legislative Council’s building. Though they have damaged property, they are not seeking to harm anyone.

Such actions are a way to make noise and gain attention. And if they prompt the police to respond with unnecessary force, as happened on June 12, then the public will feel disapproval and disgust for the authorities. The protesters should thoughtfully escalate nonviolence, maybe even resort to mild force, to push the government to the edge. That was the goal of many people who surrounded and barricaded police headquarters for hours on June 21.

Provoking violent police reactions is the declared aim of the rioters.

More Hong Kong op-eds in the NYT followed on July 1, July 2 and July 3. A fourth supporting editorial was published on July 4. More op-eds followed on July 5, July 8 and July 12.

After an extraordinary run of 16 opinion pieces on the issue in just 38 days, the NYT opinion pages went suddenly quiet on Hong Kong. Who told the editors to stop?

Anyway, it does not mean the New York Times stopped supporting the anti-government riots. Witness today's news piece that is not only slanted against Hong Kong's government and police, but is also clearly lying:

Hundreds of protesters surrounded a police station in Hong Kong on Tuesday, some scuffling with officers, after the authorities said they had charged dozens of people with rioting over clashes with the police days earlier.

The rioting charges were a distinct escalation in the government’s response to protests that have shaken Hong Kong for weeks.

There were "clashes with the police" during unapproved demonstration. Taking part in these is not a sin in my book - been there, done that. But if one does take part in riots one should be ready to accept the consequences. Some violent people were caught. The government will punish them. Those are the universal rules of the game. So why is it seen as a "distinct escalation" when the Hong Kong government charges some rioters?

The charges will most likely add to the public anger. The government said Tuesday evening that 44 people who were arrested Sunday night had been accused of rioting. In addition, a 33-year-old man would also be charged with assaulting a police officer, and a 24-year-old man was charged with possession of offensive weapons.
...
As news of the charges spread, hundreds of people dressed in black, the color of the protest movement, gathered around Kwai Chung Police Station, where the suspects were being held. The police told the crowds to disperse and used pepper spray against some demonstrators.

The writer seems to believe in the 'marginal violence theory'. He thinks that the charges will increase the rioters support. He will be disappointed. Most people in Hong Kong despise attacks on policemen and rioting that disturbs their businesses and daily life.

BTW - those who still doubt that the incidents in Hong Kong are an attempt of a U.S. instigated 'color revolution' should reread the last paragraph: "people dressed in black, the color of the protest movement".

Now comes a paragraph in which the NYT writer is outright lying:

Around 11 p.m., a small number of officers came out of the station to confront protesters, including one police officer holding a shotgun that he pointed at some of those gathered, but he did not fire. The gun did not have the distinct orange color of those the police have been using to fire rubber bullets, raising fears they were deploying more lethal weapons.

The Times uses this photo to illustrate the scene:


bigger

That looks like an aggressive cop.

However, the picture and the text in the Times are highly misleading. Below are two videos posted by Stella Lee of HK News. They show that the mob violently attacked two lone policemen, threw stuff at them, and even pulled one of them to the ground and trampled on him. Only when one of the policemen lifts his beanbag shotgun, do the attackers retreat.

Stella Lee @StellaLeeHKnews - 18:34 UTC · Jul 30, 2019

An video circulated online shows a police officer pointing his gun at the protesters after he was beaten by them near Kwai Chung police station. #antiELAB

Stella Lee later posted another video that shows a small group of policemen, under constant attack, retreat from the scene.

Stella Lee @StellaLeeHKnews - 19:52 UTC · Jul 30, 2019

Protesters threw bottles and umbrellas at police officers deployed to locate a man fainted near Kwai Fong MTR station. The officers responded by firing pepper spray at them. #ExtraditionBill

So who is the aggressor here?

The South China Morning Post notes:

A policeman pointed a shotgun at a protesting crowd on Tuesday night in fear for his life, after he was surrounded and had his helmet snatched, the force has said.

The sergeant aimed the weapon, loaded with beanbag rounds, during clashes in which 23 other officers were assaulted and splashed with corrosive liquid, it added.
...
It said that at 9.30pm, when two police vehicles left the station, protesters threw corrosive liquid at officers nearby.

An hour later, some officers were sent to Kwai Fong MTR station, where there was a report of an assault. As they returned to the station, the statement read, “two officers were surrounded by a big group of radical protesters, who hurled objects and launched attacks”.

“One of them was assaulted by many people. In order to protect his life and personal safety, he raised a long gun loaded with beanbag rounds as a caution,” it continued. “The officer also had his helmet snatched.”
...
The force said 24 officers were assaulted or had corrosives thrown at them in the ensuing fracas, with five sent to hospital.

The videos support the police description of the incident. The NYT report is clearly wrong.

The policemen who escaped lynching was immediately doxed. His family will need protection:

Suspected personal details of the officer, and a supposed photo of his family, appeared on social media hours after images of him pointing the gun were widely circulated.

That the protesters are not peaceful daisies is obvious. This can also be seen in these photos of previous fights with the police.

The SCMP also live blogged the riots on Sunday:

Hong Kong police and protesters clashed again on Sunday night in what has become a regular scene in Hong Kong.

Police made at least a dozen arrests while tear gas was fired at various locations on Hong Kong Island. Protesters marched unauthorised for the second night running, after an illegal demonstration ended in bloody clashes at Yuen Long MTR station on Saturday

The violence continued until the protesters dispersed at midnight ...

Some of the pictures in the live blog show the projectiles the protesters used against the police:

11:31PM - More protesters join last stand on Jubilee Street

About 100 protesters have come from the Wan Chai direction to take up positions at a road block on Jubilee Street again. The area is where police have pushed back demonstrators from the liaison office. On a nearby footbridge, bricks and bamboo sticks cut from building scaffolding are seen.


bigger

The bricks and bamboo sticks laid ready to be hailed down on policemen. The use of such violence against them, as promoted on June 30 on the op-ed pages of the Times, seems to have some effect. At its end today's NYT piece notes that it encourages them to do their job:

The police were noticeably more aggressive about grabbing protesters and had detained at least 49 by Monday morning. They included 32 men and 17 women, aged 16 to 41. Two were temporarily released, while another two were granted bail pending further investigation, the authorities said. Those charged were expected to appear in court Wednesday morning.

The government of Hong Kong played the issue well. It removed, for now, the amendment that was used as pretext to launch the 'regime change' demonstrations. The participation in them immediately began to shrink. The government then turned the 'marginal violence theory' against the protesters. It let the core demonstrators, who are mostly students from movements the U.S. secretly supports, escalate the violence. While the police held back from extreme measures, the rioters increased their level of force. Even those Hong Kong media that supported the demonstrations, had to take note of that. Now the fruits are ripe. The government can pick up the leaders of the riots and put them into jail. Everyone but the NYT acknowledges that it is the legal and right thing to do. It will not cause a wider public to protest against it.

The U.S. and the NYT lost their second attempt to turn Hong Kong against mainland China. Three to five years from now they will try again. It will again be in vain.

Posted by b on July 31, 2019 at 18:50 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page

morongobill 88
'You really have a loose screw somewhere if you believe China would allow a color revolution from the U.S. to succeed. They will send in the army with unlimited bullets and carte blanche first.'

Just like the 'TAM massacre' eh ?

Another lying sob !

Posted by: denk | Aug 1 2019 17:02 utc | 101

BM @61--

Buddhism is NOT a religion; it IS a philosophy. The Buddha is NOT revered as a god. The Buddha IS revered as Enlightened. Nor of course is Confucius a god or his philosophy a religion. Japan's Shintoism is based on Animism and is thus a religion. The closest things to organized religion I ever saw during my studies of China were ancestor worship and reverence for Mother China.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 1 2019 17:05 utc | 102

Perhaps the situation in Hong Kong is more about Nationalism (i.e. v. Globalism).
Meaning outside influencers are working to destroy the Globalist order by promoting Nationalism.
China is at hub of Globalist order.

Posted by: jared | Aug 1 2019 17:08 utc | 103

jared 105

Yet another fucktard.

CIA/MI6 guardians of nationalism ?

OMFG !

Posted by: denk | Aug 1 2019 17:13 utc | 104

101--

The Han Empire died long ago. What remained of it found refuge on Formosa in 1949 and protection by the Outlaw US Empire. Funny that since top-tiered US military and political figures termed Chaing and his Kuomintang as "criminals and racketeers" unworthy of support. See Kolko's Politics of War for that citation and many more.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 1 2019 17:16 utc | 105

@ Posted by: Empire Watcher | Aug 1 2019 16:24 utc | 101

Modern China (Socialist China) is not Han. It is a multiethnic nation. In fact, the minorities in the Han Empire (which was last governed by a Manchu dynasty) fought with the Communists because the nationalists (Kuomintang) wanted to reestablish a Han nation (i.e. exterminate and expel all the minorities). That's why we have the autonomous regions to begin with.

@ Posted by: jared | Aug 1 2019 17:08 utc | 105

Except for the fact that Hong Kong never had a nationalist past. It is a small piece of land that doesn't even have water. Hongkongers of the past never saw themselves as anything other than Chinese (Han).

If nationalism is the path the counter-revolutionaires want to follow, then it would be the most stupid American invention ever -- more stupid even than even a monarchist and catholic South Vietnam it tried to create in the 1960s.

Posted by: vk | Aug 1 2019 17:22 utc | 106

How  to  move pawns in  Chessboard

The last sign of growing intimacy between the UAE and Iran was that two banks from the U.A.E. approved financial transactions with Iran, despite U.S. banking sanctions.

Leaders of the United Arab Emirates have held a secret meeting where they discussed the need to revise their policy toward Iran, sources close to the Gulf state told Anadolu Agency.  

Anadolu Agency gets details of secret UAE officials meeting where they mull softening of stance on regional rival Iran.

Posted by: arata | Aug 1 2019 17:34 utc | 107

Another example of the lack of wisdom coming from the hallways of power in the United States.

Playing victim as the bully is unsustainable. So is going head over heels in debt. So is the FIRE cannibalization of the economy. Ditto for creating order after shattering and impoverishing people.

And the odds are not looking great for improvement. Just look at the peeps vying to knock off Mr. Grab-Her-By-The-What as the leader of Free World on the stage last night. Like Mr. Young said, Keep on Rockin'.


Posted by: OutOfThinAir | Aug 1 2019 17:45 utc | 108

@98

I understand your grievances but sadly I'm afraid you're delusional just like the rioters. China is a very large country and being born in hk does not give one a preordained right to a high paying job and subsidised living.

like any tier 1 city in any country it WILL attract money and talent from afar and naturally that will displace the more marginal 'talents'. it's just the order of things and especially so being a capitalistic enclave. hang on, does that mean the rioters want to be communistic instead?

Just like the free shit army in the West, they just want to cruise through school, graduate with no skill or intellect and expect the economic position of HK to carry them because it was owed to them. they truly believe they are above the mainland Chinese. it's internal racism and it's the most sad and ridiculous at the same time because it's the same people.

the root of the problem goes way back. Hong Kong lucked into what it is from the opium war and then the retreating point for the losing KMT during the revolution. then it became a leech to a large opening economy (standard MO of most British colonies) Therefore a large part of the population is naturally anti communists and apprehensive with anything China.

then you have the educators (starts in primary school and all the way to university) belting idealised western goodness into the children, essentially projecting their own political preference into the kids for decades and now you have a zombie army. take for example a few years ago the same people would be booing their national anthem with unsavory banners during football matches. I wonder how long they'd last if they did the same in the US of A. personally I have zero problems with political pluralism and I even encourage it, but when the educators punch in for work they SHOULD leave their political preference at the door and have a neutral agenda, EDUCATE so kid can figure it out for themselves. they are NOT doing that.

Some are even flying the British colonist flag in protests but clearly they weren't even born when the handover happened. further, if the Brits loved you do damnned much why didn't they hand out passports before they pissed off home?

these protesters are just so naive and stupid to the core. the dumb kids don't even know they're just pawns. in fact they are not just kids, a lot my wife's work colleagues are supporting the black shirts and when you calmly question their circular arguments they will call you a commie. at least the smarts ones up top have gotten themselves visas and scholarships offshore and will be turncoat mouthpieces for the MSM in the decades to come.

interestingly the black shirts have no problems with pretty much 100% of hk GDP being directly or indirectly subsidised by China. China doesn't need to allow tax free status for hk. it doesn't need to allow a porous border for all the taxable luxury goods smuggled into China. from my contacts in China this is causing a lot of grievances within the grassroots mainlanders seeing hk as a bunch of ungrateful treasonous turncoats. all China needs to do is to enforce baggage checks at the border and hk retail trade will pretty much crash to nothing.

the peer pressure is massive in schools. my relatives kids are being pressured and ostracized by students and teachers alike for questioning and having a healthy skepticism. they have to act like they support them just to get by.

my grandpa was trialled and executed by the commies so I have no love for them, in fact that's why my grandma fled to HK. But i do not support this movement because its fundamentally flawed and stinks to high heaven.

my grandma told me a lot about how it was back during the revolution and what these black shirts are doing and just like what she said. rounding up people, police and businesses with overwhelming crowd and being judge and executioners all by themselves. well not literally killing yet but they are smashing up shops, forcing public apologies and allegiances from their targets, it has also escalated to using legally obtainable items as weapons as B reported, and when they're caught the crowd with surround the police station to get 'their' people back. I imagine that's how fascism started in the past.

I was born here, raised here, educated in the West and now live here. I'm in my early 40s and truth be told if i was 18 or 22 now I'll probably be on the street because i was naive and brainwashed just like these Muppets. fortunately with age comes perspective...

ask me anything the MSN aren't telling you. I'll do my best.

Posted by: A.L. | Aug 1 2019 18:05 utc | 109


Unfortunately, this hasn’t stopped much of the left from agreeing with the likes of John Bolton in characterizing China’s assistance as ‘neocolonial.’ Liberalism is supplanting internationalism and anti-imperialism in many ‘leftist’ circles and it is especially disappointing to observe many who may be innately skeptical of corporate media narratives of a crisis in the Middle East or Latin America suddenly abandon their suspicions to rely on the very same sources as dependable in their coverage of China.

https://dissidentvoice.org/2019/07/thirty-years-after-tiananmen-square-the-u-s-is-still-trying-to-destabilize-china/

i'VE brought up this China syndrome of the pseudo left many times already.
When it comes to China, anything goes, suddenly the warsj, NYT, breitbert, Broomberg, guardian, econmoists......all become their go to source !

For example,
Every anti-imperialist worth his salt knows that xtianity is a very potent and insidious weapon of brainwashing, churches , especially the 'underground' varieties, are hotbed for indoctrination.

HK churches have been up to their eyeballs in
the 2014 caper and its current sequel.
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2014/10/a-thought-about-the-umbrella-m.php

China is aware of this massive trojan on its land, you bet Beijing is alarmed by the rapid proliferation of churches, especially the 'underground ' version.
BUt whenever Beijing tried to clamp down on the illegit churches, the [[[fiveliars]]] led ENA scream murder, 'xtian Persecutions'.

Where were these assholes when xtians were butchered, burned in the two 'democratic' India/Indon, civilians killed by fukus supplied weapons in the hand of fukus trained troops?

[[five liars]]] double standard, hypocrisy are legendary, par for the course,you'd thought every anti-imperialist worth his salt outta know a liar when he sees one, never mind FIVE !

Yet we've pft and his cohorts the donkey, nemesis etc,greefully lapping up every juicy agitprop about 'xtian persucution', 'Uighurs persecution' in China.

These people aint stupid, what gives ?

They'r misdirection agents,
the 'China just as bad', 'China is even worst' conspiracy theorists, their job is to deflect attention from fukus towards China/Russia etc., to wreck even the already meager support for China/Russia, so that fukus can carry on with its nefarious schemes with total impunity/

Posted by: denk | Aug 1 2019 18:14 utc | 110

Arioch | Aug 1 2019 13:34 utc | 90

If this were a "communist false flag" (You have other examples?)
Posted by: foolisholdman | Aug 1 2019 13:04 utc | 84
Oh, of course!
Look at poor American attorney named meow-meowller, in his recent testimony he was grilled for failing to adequately expose Russian (Putin's) nefarious role in producing the fake Steele dossier and thus discrediting American freedoms.

Sorry? This must be some new definition of "Communist" of which I was hitherto unaware!

Posted by: foolisholdman | Aug 1 2019 18:24 utc | 111

@Karlof 104

That is semantics writ large. Within the east in various countries are thousands of temples which exhibit priestly classes, monks, temples, and services for the three great, non-Hindu religions including Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism.

The state recognised religious affiliations of China for instance observe them in a secondary way, just as humanism in the west has sprouted from Christianity.

The anthropomorphic aspects of western religions is what I believe you are referring to.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Aug 1 2019 18:24 utc | 112

@ vk | Aug 1 2019 17:22 utc | 108

Leaving aside the part about U.S. intervention, I think the people of Hong Kong may see themselves as an entity apart from China.

However, on the point of U.S. intervention I think there is an element of promoting Nationalism over Globalism - as in disrupting the Globalist agenda which is undermining the sovereignty of all nations (though it serves the interests of some for the moment).

Posted by: jared | Aug 1 2019 18:27 utc | 113

@112

yes the Catholic churches (in all of its different flavors) are all 1000% behind the black shirts. they have openly said so in the media and therefore actively muscled itself into politics, preying on the mortal insecurities of people to achieve a political aim, essentially suggesting to the sheeple that god is on their side.

It's quite underhanded, but what's new?

another sad fact - due to its colony past, the churches have a lot of schools in hk from the missionary days and that's a massive brainwashing and grooming pipeline.

I know, I was in one of those schools.

Posted by: A.L. | Aug 1 2019 18:31 utc | 114

"the Catholic churches (in all of its different flavors) are all 1000% behind the black shirts"

by 'behind' I meant supporting, not orchestrating.

Posted by: A.L. | Aug 1 2019 18:43 utc | 115

@11 A.L. thanks for sharing your perspective...i appreciate it.. it is much in line with b's post too...

Posted by: james | Aug 1 2019 19:07 utc | 116

When an army with nuclear weapon and F-35 in arsenal shaken with  4 and 6 years old boys stone!

The child, named Qais Firas Obaid from the East Jerusalem neighbourhood of Issawiya was stopped by Israeli occupation forces July 30 2019, after he allegedly threw a carton at them, soldiers told him to provide them with his mum’s ID card. They then returned to his home and issued a summons for his father, ordering him to go to the city’s interrogation centre at 8am 31 July.

The case comes a day after another child, Muhammad Rabi’ Elayyan, aged just four years old, was summoned by Israeli forces for allegedly throwing stones at police vehicles.

See the news here.

Posted by: arata | Aug 1 2019 19:16 utc | 117

AL 116

The pastors have done their parts, feeding
the PC ideas to their charges during the sunday
sessions,,..'YOur loyalty belongs to gawd,
not your parents, not your siblings, certainly
not your country, CCP is anti-christ, its our
enemy'.

Im sure they'r now sitting pretty, enjoying
their handiwork, seeing their swarming
adolicents giving a massive black eye to
CCP, enemy of gawd !

Now is the turn of Brian Kern and his cadres,
to organise and direct 'battles' on the
ground.

Posted by: denk | Aug 1 2019 19:22 utc | 118

@denk 119

There's no separation between the people and the state in their hatred. it's totally blind. You can not like the government, you can not like the party, but you're a fool if you hate your own people. but here they are, decades of brainwashing and Hollywood, west is best, captain America and all that. it's frankly embarrassing.

In true pawn fashion, these Muppets actually think if they kick up a big enough stink FUKUS will come riding to their rescue. in fact the extremists wants to bait the governments into a Tiananmen 2.0. Then R2P and all that, hence the escalation in violence. oh they are just students, oh they're just throwing bricks but the police have guns, oh they're pasting lovely post-it notes in makeshift shrines of their feelings and support. spare me. nothing is organic, everything is researched to tickle your emotions and executed to a plan.

news flash - HK is just an interesting sideshow for the greater US China spat. it's just a little shank the West can twist to annoy and embarrasses China with.

HK needs China a lot more than China needs HK. China can manage just find without HK, it's not like the days gone by where HK is the only international port for China.

HK is history, China has a long memory and will get it's revenge. China's developmental focus will go elsewhere, right now is still useful as a springboard to expatriate money but the day the pain of politically sustaining this shit show overtaking the usefulness of this trojan horse is rapidly approaching.

already the protestors are calling out businesses for firing staff for their protesting, but how long is a piece of string? what's to stop anyone being let go legitimately saying their firing was politically motivated? it is the exact analogue of their original argument against the extradition treaty, that if the extradition bill is approved, the cops will make up charges against political targets at Beijing's behest.

cops making up charges has been happening since the dawn of time, it's not a reason for not having sensible laws. solution is in the details and management of its use.

what'd they think about their perfect western society's extradition of Julian Assange? hmmm... didn't think so.

their arguments are all circular and shows extreme lack of intellect. you bust one loop they'll switch to another demand, then they call you a commie.


Posted by: A.L. | Aug 1 2019 20:22 utc | 119

This is what it takes that the CIA advices and supply you ...

The other day in Hong Kong, the second line of protesters used lasers against police cameras to prevent facial recognition.....

https://twitter.com/jmangues/status/1156893581224947713

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 1 2019 22:00 utc | 120

The fingerprints of US-sponsored regime change organizations like IRI, AEI, NED, USAID, Freedom House, NDI, CANVAS, OTPOR, are easily recognizable. From Ukraine, to Venezuela, Kirghistan to Algeria, Iran to HongKong. The symbolism is always the same:

https://twitter.com/lgnomada/status/1138777815485014016

Pick on image and pass it on to view.

Posted by: Sasha | Aug 1 2019 22:06 utc | 121

nottheonly1,

Before I put you back into my filter, I suggest you go read Baudrillard and stop shilling gender capitalism and other forms of bourgeois Western neoliberal "personal branding" as some sort of social imperative, because bourgeois play-pretend is not and never was relevant to the necessities of life. No, forcing a group to recognize you as their own isn't necessary, nor does it respect the rights of that group.

The sooner we can put the whole bourgeoisie up gender-neutral lamp posts, the better off the whole world will be.

Posted by: Jonathan | Aug 1 2019 23:12 utc | 122

@Denk #69

Add to that the militant Sunni flavors that carry the western stamp of approval
like wahhabism and its traveling circus of rabble rousers,
funded by the usual suspects like SA and Qatar.
European news cycles keep repeating that foreign funding needs looking into/closer scrutiny.
Shudda-cudda-wudda... whoopsie! (aka Bibi Is Always Right, or some such nonsense)

Posted by: Mishko | Aug 2 2019 1:28 utc | 123

@114 NemesisCalling

Buddhism doesn't have a God. I have always thought that it would be hard to have a religion without a God.

I know that it's common to call Buddhism a religion. I'm a Buddhist. I'm not religious. I don't have a God - although I love and honor all those who do, and I love to talk with them about their beliefs and discover their daily practices to experience the sacred nature of the universe.

But the teachings of the Buddha are more akin to a science than anything. For example, in science Professor X says, this is my theory of how the universe works. I submit it to the community's observation, testing, and peer review.

Similarly but with one difference, the Buddha said, I perceive directly how the universe works. I submit it to your personal examination - as well as to the peer community (which over 2600 years has discovered no flaw).

I will provide a map, said the Buddha, to point out what you will find if you pursue this examination, but - crucially - only you can travel this path, and only you can discover for yourself in your own experience your findings of this path. You cannot believe me, said the Buddha, you must discover for yourself.

~~

As to God, on the surface the Buddhist teachings don't have one and don't have any comment about one. But at a deeper level of the doctrine, Buddhism does explain that God is one of the two sides of the extremes of error that humans fall into.

Humans believe in an eternal and permanent force that creates and controls. Or else, in rejecting this notion as untenable, they conclude that there is no such force and in fact there is nothing at all. These are the two extremes of Eternalism and Nihilism, respectively. Buddhism walks the Middle Path, between these extremes.

And I must say that in delighting to discuss the God of those who believe in their God, I take greatly more pleasure than I do in talking with those who believe in nothing.

~~

I have no links, but a few years ago some non-profit outfit studied history and concluded that, of all the wars ostensibly fought for the sake of religion, Buddhism alone was the greatest peacekeeper in the history of the world, with no wars ever started in propagation of its doctrine.

This outfit wanted to give an award for this, and solicited Buddhist organizations around the world to accept the award on behalf of Buddhism. They could not find any Buddhist organization that felt able to assume the position of speaking for the global teaching of Buddhism. The award was never placed.

I love this story - and it is true, I read it and confirmed it when it was current news.

~~

I could talk forever about Buddhism. It reaches that far, and lasts that long.

Posted by: Grieved | Aug 2 2019 4:44 utc | 124

A.L. 121

I heard that Brian Kern critter used to teach English in the mainland, was booted out after he's found engaging in some nefarious extra curricula activities.
Then he went to HK, carry on 'teaching English' in the 'prestigious' international school where many of HK's upperclass kids congregate. Aside from 'teaching English', he conducted an extra curricula course on....
'human rights' [sic].

No prize guessing what he has been feeding those spoilt kids, 'CCP is evil, your deliverance lies in the western democracies' [aka the [[[five liars]]].

There'r many gweilo openly participating in the current color rev as cell leaders, kern seem to be the 'field commander', directing , goading the swarming adolecents on the spot to confront the police.

Posted by: denk | Aug 2 2019 5:18 utc | 125

Mishko 125

*European news cycles keep repeating that foreign funding needs looking into/closer scrutiny.*

Over the years,
that Washington led [[[five liars]]] have been beating the drum on 'Chinese infiltration' in anglo land.

In Oz, they even talk about 'impending Chinese invasion', 'army of fifth columns who'd rise up when the Chinese embassy give the command' [sic]

In NZ, pentagon sponsored shill Marie Ann Brady shamelessly accused the Chinese OF 'burgling her house, stealing her laptop !'

hoLYwood could use these critters, such awesome imagination. !

It'd seems, to the [[[five liars]]], sky is the limit when they'r lying. It comes so natural ,must be hardwired in their DNA.

All these of course is orchestrated top down from the Washington cesspool.
Not that the other four liars are complaining tho, judging from the more than enthusiastic performance from Oz, NZ, Canada, UK.
After all, blood is thicker than water, innit ?

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/05/14/clin-m14.html

Posted by: denk | Aug 2 2019 5:26 utc | 126

@126 grieved

Thanks for the comment. I will take another look at it later.

In the mean time, I had another way of distinguishing religions from systems of philosophy. I believe religion can be described as the communion with the Greek logos, or divine plan or word.

It seems that even in eastern religions such as Buddhism, there is holy reverence for this communion.

That is why it is folly, I believe to dismiss eastern religious thought as mere philosopohy.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 2 2019 13:52 utc | 127

@ Grieved & NemesisCalling,

All these philosophies, religions, movements ... are mostly nice and dandy in their aim to improve the World, but they are all ripe for abuse by philosophers, preachers, politicians, lead practitioners ... Two of you, obviously well red and educated persons with ample means to support yourself, are capable of weeding noise from the message, but do you think that billions of poor people of Tibet, or South East Asia, or Nepal, or Bangladesh, or India, ... are able to do that. It bothers me when I see (TV documentaries) about those young Buddhist monks in Thailand begging for food on the streets instead of producing it, or dirt poor families scraping last money they have to send their son or daughter to become a priest instead of sending them to school.

The procession of those young monks begging for food reminds me of five eyes' politicians begging for money from Adelson, Coch Brothers ...

Posted by: ex-SA | Aug 2 2019 14:47 utc | 128

@ 130 ex-sa

Imo, the suppression of independent thought and the stifling of the individual from coming to the understanding that his worth in the eyes of the creator is no more or no less as that of the highest king is the supreme work of God in the coming of Jesus Christ.

With that being said, proselytizing is a minefield. I have spoken just recently to some youth who went to China on an unofficial mission. The organizing company has to call it a tourist adventure lest the company be expelled and the visitors thrown into jail. The gist of what they believe they are doing is 1. To witness the suppression of those from the freedom in Christ and 2. To try to relate to those under this system of control their eternal and infinite value of their life in the eyes of the lord, as opposed to say other religions that prescribe reincarnation and which has the effect of systematic oppression of individuals in their guilt.

Do I think this proselytizing in eastern countries is ok? I am an affirmed nationalist after all. Meddling in other countries I find abhorrent and, like Herodotus, a hero of mine, I deeply respect eastern cultures in their idiosyncrasies. Does Christianity have a dulling and homogenizing effect that is a detriment to culture and difference?

I have thought long and hard about that and must say that if Christ is the logos, I must have faith that bringing the message to those who haven't heard it, is the mission. That is, as long as the conversion is not forceful or through violence.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Aug 2 2019 16:26 utc | 129

ex-SA @130 mentioned that "It bothers me when I see (TV documentaries) about those young Buddhist monks in Thailand begging for food on the streets instead of producing it"

Either those are total crap documentaries (British, I assume) or they are OK documentaries that you misunderstood. I am guessing the former, but covering the alternatives just in case.

The whole point of the Thai year-of-unemployment exercise is to learn humility and understand what it is like to have to depend upon their fellow Thais. I am pretty sure every male in Thailand is required to go through the experience. There is a great deal of wisdom behind the practice and something like that instituted in the West (the USUK, primarily) would help get over the exceptionality psychosis that so many Americans and Brits suffer from.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 2 2019 17:08 utc | 131

@ William Gruff | Aug 2 2019 17:08 utc

Thank you, I missed the point that it was year-of-unemployment exercise. That is great exercise, and yes, it would definitely benefit young people in the West!

What do you think about Tibet (before China) and Nepal today?

Posted by: ex-SA | Aug 2 2019 18:28 utc | 132

Sure I posted this before....but can’t see it now. At handover, HK was 25% of Chinese GDP, now it is below 2% and is being absorbed into the Greater Bay Area as an economic concept. It doesn’t really matter basically. Taiwan however is a different matter, especially GeoPolitically, This is all about Taiwan.
The 2014 yellow umbrella protests were hijacked by the Property Tycoons who successfully ensured that the people of Hong Kong didn’t get full emancipation. Basically by convincing the students that unless they could select the short list for Chief Executive it wasn’t worth having universal suffrage, the Tycooons (HK’s very own Oligarchs) retained the system of 1200 ‘insiders’ selecting the Legislative Council. Most of the economic issues facing ordinary HK Chinese stem from this abuse of power. These latest protests however look to me like they have been hijacked by Taiwan. The Taiwan government faces an Election in January and the opposition are pro closer ties with Beijing. My suspicion is that the Taiwanese government believe that by goading the Chinese into a big reaction they can ‘prove’ to their electorate how dangerous China is. Naturally the crew at Langley are going to be supportive of this and have lent their playbook.

Posted by: Mark T | Aug 3 2019 2:55 utc | 133

Posted by: Mark T | Aug 3 2019 2:55 utc | 135:

... These latest protests however look to me like they have been hijacked by Taiwan. The Taiwan government faces an Election in January and the opposition are pro closer ties with Beijing. My suspicion is that the Taiwanese government believe that by goading the Chinese into a big reaction they can ‘prove’ to their electorate how dangerous China is. Naturally the crew at Langley are going to be supportive of this and have lent their playbook.

That's the reason why China is unlikely to intervene this time around, unlike what they did in Tibet in 1959.

Posted by: difficult bird | Aug 3 2019 4:35 utc | 134


I think we should be careful to call every protest we see the work of Soros/CIA/NED and not legitimate. Sure there is media support and probably agents running around trying to exploit the situation pouring gasoline on the fire. The fact that pro-democracy organizers reach out to bad actors doesn't necessarily mean they aren't home grown and represent general people. The fact that US/NATO Empire want to give a geopolitical enemy a black eye shouldn't make us jump to conclusions either.

I agree the case of HK is much more complicated and this is not just a popular movement. It seems groups within the HK/Mainland Oligarchy/Mafia/business community is also fighting through these protests. God knows what's going on behind the scenes. According to a friend of mine in HK even the family of Jiang, leader of China 1990-2003, may be involved and she don't put much stock in the 'It's just a Color revolution' explanation either. So yes the violent development with the HK protests this year does have "big politics" written all over it, but perhaps the usual "Big bad Wolf" is in fact playing second fiddle this time.

I think B should broaden his scope and not just treat this as a slam dunk case. I don't feel this way often but to me he's coming dangerously close to working backwards from his conclusion. Sure he might be proven right in the end, but I feel strongly we should not close the book on this just yet..


Posted by: Roger Kamben | Aug 3 2019 5:06 utc | 135

Posted by: ex-SA | Aug 2 2019 14:47 utc | 130

[@ Grieved & NemesisCalling,] "Two of you, obviously well red and educated persons with ample means to support yourself, are capable of weeding noise from the message, but do you think that billions of poor people of Tibet, or South East Asia, or Nepal, or Bangladesh, or India, ... are able to do that."

--I don't mean offense in pointing this out, but isn't this rather underestimating the intellectual and analytical capacity of a pretty substantial number of humans, many of whom have been the world's best thinkers in every discipline (and many of whom came from extremely economically-depressed situations not typically "indicative" of highly-nurturing learning environments according to modern bias)?

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 3 2019 8:09 utc | 136

I am not 100% sure why directing a green laser towards the eyes of a policeman at point blank range is considered anything less than extreme violence when directing it at a distant aircraft is a federal offense in hte US.

Some of these lasers can illuminate clouds half a mile high and a mere flash can burn out a retina. It seems at least as violent as throwing acid in someone's face.

- Shyaku

Posted by: Shyaku | Aug 3 2019 8:30 utc | 137

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 2 2019 13:52 utc | 129

"In the mean time, I had another way of distinguishing religions from systems of philosophy. I believe religion can be described as the communion with the Greek logos, or divine plan or word."

--LOGOS did not have its current meaning prior to Heraclitus. Heraclitus expanded the meaning to express "the Way"; Heraclitus was a philosopher but, if you'll notice his concerns, not just a philosopher--he was dealing with this in a way we would understand as also religious. In Ancient Greece, there is no separation of philosophy/religion: this is why Anaxagoras, Diagoras, Socrates (most famously), and Aristotle were all accused of impiety for asking (philosophical) questions at the expense of polytheistic religion. Point: coming from Greek, understanding (or even communion with) LOGOS makes no separation between philosophy/religion. [When Jesus says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" any person at that time listening would immediately recognize the redundancy of that expression, since LOGOS can be understood as "Way" and "Truth" and "Life: when John writes of the Word, this foundation exactly is what he is referencing.]

TAO (at least in the most primal Taoism) is most similar to LOGOS: "the Way"--other concepts similar are Avestan ASHA & Sanskrit RTA, as well as Egyptian MA'AT. In each case, attempting to strain out what separates "philosophy" from "religion" is an unfruitful task (and not only because of semantics).

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 3 2019 9:00 utc | 138

Nancy Pelosi gloating on the CIA orchestrated mayhem in HK,
'What a wonderful sight' !
The bitch would do that wouldnt she ?

Pompeo, Pelosi, Pence, openly fete their HK compradors in Washington, pleading total support to the 'democratic movement' in HK.

The [[[five liars]]] led ENA even have the gall to demand HK to release all detained rioters and drop all the charges.

The ENA must be hallucinating on the good ole days...Yuan MIng Yuan, Opium war...

Imagine...
All this while, they are bleating on and on about 'Chinese embassy controlled fifth columns ' in [[[anglo land,.]]]....
ROBBER CRYING ROBBERY sobs !

[[[HR CRUSADORS]]] ???

Wait a min,
I seem to remember when the OKinawans sent a delegation to Washington to plead their case,they met a stone wall, suddenly, CON-gress, senates, potus all unavailable.

UN officials wanna talk about indigenous
American plights, were told that CON-gress were vacationing in the Rockies.

What happen to the few activists who took up
the cudgel for the Chagosians, ugh...thrown into jails.
[moral of the story, HEY all you murikkan posters, its safer to diss CCP over Tibet.,Xinjiang, HK here....no consequences !]
hehehhe

And where'r these [[[five liars]]] 'human rights crusaders' when Kashmir youths were shot point blank by Indian jawans ?
Dalits lynched and burned by Brahmins ?

Where'r these [[['HR crusaders']]] during the
GUjarag pogrom ?

MIne, gawd forbid, could it be that these [[[five liars]]] have a special affinity for the Chinese, nice to know that eh ?

Perish the thought, !

Where'r these [[[HR champions]]] when almost the entire Chinese communities in INdon were wiped out in the CIA orchestrated genocide in 1965 ?

Where'r these [[[HR champions]]] , when thousands of Chinese were massacred in the CIA orchestrated pogrom in Malaysia, 1963 ?

And where the fuck were these [[[HR crusaders]]] when CIA orchestrated another pogrom in INdon 1998, where hundreds of Chinese were killed, gang raped, mutilated by drug crazed mobs ?

Moral of the story,.......

As if we need further confirmation, ...
These [[[HR champions]]] and its Euros cousins are the world's worst human rights violators AND the world champion hypocrites.

Martin Lee and co need professional help, if he still think the [[[five liars]]] give a rat ass about HR, Chinese in particular.

On second thought, perhaps they do,
The [[[five liars]]] like China so much, one China isnt enuff for them , that's why they've been trying to break up China into many more pieces !!!

heheheheheh

Posted by: denk | Aug 3 2019 13:43 utc | 139

@140 anacharsis

Thanks for the excellent comment. Yes, I am aware that Christianity appropriated the logos concept from Heraclitus. Furthermore, Heidegger revisits Heraclitus and the Pre-Socratics when bringing about the ontological question.

Being very interested in Heidegger and also a Catholic has made the journey rough as the two are almost at odds. For Heidegger, Christianity ends with Jesus as the Logos and does not approach the fundamental question of being that which the Pre-Socratics brought about.

I also agree that Jesus as Logos as the "way, the truth, and the life," if it were comparable to any eastern religion or philosophy designating logos, would best approximate Taoism. Every time I thumb through the Tao Te Ching, I always try to reconcile Christ's teachings with that of that Tao.

It is also interesting that later in his life and thinking, Heidegger became interested in interrogating Taoism as he made connections between this and the Pre-Socratics.

I believe what we are talking about when we compare philosophy/religion is not necessarily an unfruitful task, though I admit that I am not up to it. Probably as Christianity became more centralized and formal in its piety, the task of interrogating the question of being fell away carelessly and it was Hegel and then Heidegger who attempted to reawaken such questioning. However, if communion with logos is the primordial event of being human par excellence, how can this event not be revered in the religious sense, even if we are talking about the greatest thinkers of history? The play from philosophy to religion is clearly circular and connected and perhaps we just use the terms without ascertaining their originary meaning and/or connection.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 3 2019 14:58 utc | 140

@126 grieved

Have you ever read Heidegger? Your interest in the east as a Buddhist (and I know you have related your affinity for Taoism before) and your western roots makes reading Heidegger almost an essential task. Much of what you wrote pertaining to straddling the middle point between eternalism and nihilism, brought about in me Heidegger as a reference point. Interrogating nothingness, just as in interrogating the notion of bodily death, is something that is shunned in western, and increasingly eastern, I would imagine, consumer society. This phenomenon seems to me to have origin partly in the demonic role of globalism. Think of how an airplane has scrambled the notion of time and travel so that a businessman in the west can get to Beijing in a few hours time. My thought is that this demonic force, however as much as it would like to end once and for all the concept of time (and thus aging), it will never be able to do so, even with Musk's magnetic-rail tunnels for fast-travelling sans stoplights and intersections and the like. It is absolutely a fool's errand (globalism) and for me is no better proof of the inherent stupidity of our age (which also happens to mean that it is the most dangerous (i.e. dangling over an abyss of nothingness)).

'Introduction to Metaphysics' is Heidegger's lecture course published in the 50s but was given in the early 30s as Hitler had just become chancellor and Germany was in the throes of something momentous. It is a great introduction to Heidegger.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 3 2019 15:24 utc | 141

iM really tired of those dreary Chinese spokesmen s whining'.....when interrogated by those gawd damn ENA journos,

' HK is our sacred territoryh,We strongly oppose and condemn any interference from foreign power, we plead the [[[five liars]]] to desist from action that jeopardise our bilateral relation'

FFS,
This is how to deal with those pesky, arrogant, sobs !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaRWx1Xw8SU

Posted by: denk | Aug 3 2019 16:58 utc | 142

it's on again as I write this.

this is what I've seen and seeing on live TV...

1.powerful green and blue lasers into police eyes, not cameras. police have now issued some ir blocking visors or eye masks. still can't be good for your eyes.

2.they have surrounded the police family residences and tossing bottles and may be Molotovs. not 100% as i only saw a fire truck approaching the scene.

3.they are also shouting and shooting powerful lights and lasers into the police homes. I imaging the wives and kids in there are not having a good night.

4. stopped traffic, surrounded and trashed a news van. it's the only free to air station in hk with live coverage. their grievances is because they are the only news service not totally on the side of the rioters.

5. starting seeing geared up paramilitaries wearing largely identical and legally obtainable stuff like ACR helmets (may be not the real deal), hockey armor and comms gear as evidenced by aerials stocking out of their backpack. they have also been filmed using uv stamps to distinguish themselves. they also like to wear spandex sports tights. may be too much airsoft...

6. fake news corp up to the faces of the police line. hundreds of them at all venues. 99% are facing and filming the police so I don't know what they're covering news wise. most of them are using smart phones with makeshift press vests or helmets. my guess is they're there to film the faces of policemen and to stop the police using direct fire projectiles like bean bags and rubber bullets. police can't or won't check press credentials, I'm not a lawyer but I'm not stupid enough to not notice there ain't that many Chinese press in hk. they also run interference during police rushes.

7. lots of rioters with red cross on clothing or helmets clearly participating. fair game but it does tickle the emotions of the mentally weak when they get the clubbing.

8. social workers escorting seemingly mentally challenged adults being used as vanguards. and when police rush them they're always the slowest and the social worker will flash their badge like that protestor is under their charge and protection and some of them get a free pass in the confusion. (I worked in a related industry in the past so I can tell, and I can tell you the social workers are all anti govt. I know it's not PC so take my word or not it's up to you)

9. filmed using 8ft slingshot with bricks against police

10. filmed trashed private cars of police parked in the lot

11. lots of foreigners, some are clearly there for the excitement but when one messes with local politics as a foreigner you've just left your rights at the airport.

they are clearly baiting the CCP to let the dogs out. hk police is either too lenient or powerless. I'm starting to believe they're wanting to let hk burn so the silent majority will start to see the light.

sadly the older Chinese are conditioned not to act from centuries of oppression, the youth have taken advantage of their silence and tolerance as approval. prognosis- hk is fkd.

so here we have the latest issue of the regime change handbook. other counties take heed.


Posted by: A.L. | Aug 3 2019 18:09 utc | 143

@145 A. L.. thanks for the update... here is a comment from pat lang and walrus from sst

Posted by: james | Aug 3 2019 18:41 utc | 144

Facial recognition cameras are already neutralized by the surgical masks, helmets, and umbrellas - so clearly the lasers are not being employed for that purpose. It's interesting how that notion so quickly spread in tandem with the idea that the protest tactics are "innovative". From an alt-blogger to mainstream tabloids in about two days.

Posted by: jayc | Aug 3 2019 22:03 utc | 145

141,

Where the fuck were those [[[HR champions]]], when almost the entire Chinese communities were wiped out in the CIA orchestrated genocide in Indon, 1965,
you ask ?? ?

Well...
[[[They]]] are here, having an orgasm over the 'West best news come out of Asia'
--------------------


Marshall Green, US ambassador

The US is generally sympathetic with and admiring of what the army is doing.''

Robert J Martens, political officer in the US embassy

'It was a big help to the army,'. 'They probably killed a lot of people and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands, but that's not all bad. There's a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment.

Time

'The West's Best News in Asia

US News and World Report

'Indonesia: Hope . . . where there was once none'.

New York Times columnist James Reston

'A gleam of light in Asia


Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt,

'With 500,000 to a million communist sympathisers knocked off,' 'I think it's safe to assume a reorientation has taken place.'

What might that 'reorientation' be to warrant rubbing off three millions souls and getting the whole [[[family]]] in ecstasy ?

James Reston

' The savage transformation of Indonesia from a pro-Chinese policy under Sukarno to a defiantly anti-Communist policy under General Suharto is, of course, the most important of these developments'

Oh I see, another panda hugger bumped off, time for a cuppa eh ?

No doubt the three millions 'collateral damage' are worth it, Albright would approve.

hehehhehe

P.S.
Dont get mixed up, [[[the family ]]] is not (((the tribe ))) !

LIke I say, its always a [[[family]]] biz,
The Brits even offer their warship,
HMS humanity to ferry the death squads to the killing ground.

Posted by: denk | Aug 4 2019 3:46 utc | 146

148

WTF were those [[[HR champions]]] when hundreds of ethnic Chinese were massacred, gang raped, mutilated in the CIA orchestrated pogrom in Indon, 1998
you ask ???

I heard Martin Lee , good for him, rang up his buddies in DC, figuring [[[they]]] are the ones with the leverage to stop the carnage, cuz we all know Suharto was just a lapdog which'd jump to uncle sham's command.

The sweet voice at the other end intoned,

'The CON-gress are in urgent session, discussing the Tibet issue'

What about the potus, ?

'The prez is having lunch with HMDL, not to be disturbed come what may'
'click'
[1]

.................
and Yet, even today, Martin is still holding on to the coattails of his [[[mentors]]] , thinking [[[they]]] are his hope for deliverance.

hehehehe

[1]
For the uninitiated,
[[[they]]] have this unofficial ritual, whereby every potus, when assuming duty, the first thing to do is to fete HMDL in the WH, to show murikkan solidarity to the holy man.


Posted by: denk | Aug 4 2019 4:41 utc | 147


Published: March 20, 1999

U.S. KEEPS SILENT ABOUT PERSECUTION OF ETHNIC CHINESE IN INDONESIA

EDITOR'S NOTE: The U.S. government has spoken freely about human rights violations in Asia, especially in China and Burma (Myanmar). Yet extremely serious violations in Indonesia have gone un-remarked, notes PNS commentator Peter Dale Scott, despite the fact that the U.S. plays a significant role in that region. Scott, a former Canadian diplomat is a professor at the University of California, Berkeley.

By Peter Dale Scott
PACIFIC NEWS SERVICE

U.S. Secretary of State Albright made headlines when she protested the treatment of dissidents in China and Myanmar (Burma).

But she was silent about a much bigger crime against humanity - the rapes and murders and disappearances of dissidents and ethnic Chinese in Indonesia last spring.

This silence was not noted in the press, yet a word from Secretary Albright on this topic would carry some weight, for the United States itself has armed and trained the Indonesian armed forces, including the specific units accused of these crimes.

Last May, four students were shot and dozens of Chinese were killed or raped in a wave of violence which, according to almost every observer, was centrally organized rather than spontaneous. Witnesses attribute the crimes to teams of hoodlums delivered by trucks, and these accounts are backed up by some pictures taken with remote cameras. The anti-Chinese violence in particular suggests a pattern familiar in recent Indonesian history: the army deflecting resentment from itself and on to a prominent minority.

Many knowledgeable observers speculate that the arranged violence was part of a power struggle between Defense Minister Wiranto, who was tolerating protest to bring about political change, and General Prabowo (Suharto's son-in-law), who had already encouraged anti-Chinese propaganda. After the violence Prabowo was abruptly demoted. An investigation conducted by Wiranto led to the arrest in mid July of ten members of the Special Forces or Kopassus, formerly commanded by Prabowo and one of his close allies, in connection with last spring's disappearances, kidnapping, and torture of political dissidents.

Extensive investigations conducted by Asiaweek and the Far Eastern Economic Review also suggest that Kopassus and Prabowo may have instigated the anti-Chinese violence. Meanwhile two prominent Muslim leaders, Abdurrahman Wahid and Amien Rais, have called upon the Army to, pursue their investigation at a higher level than that of those already arrested.

This is not only a matter of simple justice. The hopes for a more democratic Indonesia depend on the Army's purging itself of those who would maintain power through fomenting violence and racial hatred. And this is why Albright's silence is so significant and so disappointing. She has declined to give human rights guidance to the country where it would be most appropriate.

The complete silence of Albright and the U.S. press on this matter is hardly surprising. Prabowo was until recently the golden-haired boy of the Pentagon, which poured millions into the training of Kopassus units, even after Congress ordered it to stop.

The U.S. press was also silent during two peak periods of army violence in the past: the army instigated murders of a half million or more Indonesians in 1965, and the 1975 invasion of East Timor, which resulted in 200,000 or more deaths in that small country. And the U.S. Government and press allowed many years to pass before admitting that troops which had received Pentagon training were responsible for the massacre of civilians in El Salvador and Guatemala.

As a low-level member of Canada's Foreign Service some years ago, I saw at first hand how swiftly decent bureaucrats would rush to cover up the crimes of their government and its allies. If the U.S. is to guide Indonesia away from racial politics, and towards a more open and civilian government, it will take determined pressure from an outraged citizenry and Congress. © COPYRIGHT PNS

Posted by: denk | Aug 4 2019 4:55 utc | 148

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 3 2019 14:58 utc | 142

"Christianity appropriated the logos concept from Heraclitus."

--(Whether it was appropriated as an organic development OF Heraclitus or whether Heraclitus was motivated to develop it in advance of its eventual appropriation is a fair question of teleology. & temporality...)

--Heidegger [in my opinion] is a monumental waste of time (& being)--much more important are Kierkegaard & Husserl (from whom Heidegger lifted anything of value).

"the fundamental question of being that which the Pre-Socratics brought about."

--And which the entirety of the history of philosophy (and thus every modern discipline since they all originate in philosophy) asks: where did [that] come from? [From Parmenides (what is, is: all that proceeds from “the One”: “Exists” & what is not, is not: “Nothing” is non-existent) to Einstein (whom Popper called Parmenides).]

"Probably as Christianity became more centralized and formal in its piety, the task of interrogating the question of being fell away carelessly and it was Hegel and then Heidegger who attempted to reawaken such questioning."

--No, there have always been those who asked the question of being (ontology), even in the church: Augustine, Ockham & many others; also both Jewish Kalam & Islamic Kalam--these remained throughout history and were appropriated (then largely ignored--except in token sense--) by such as Hegel & Heidegger in post-"enlightenment" period.

"However, if communion with logos is the primordial event of being human par excellence, how can this event not be revered in the religious sense, even if we are talking about the greatest thinkers of history?"

--My point is that these thinkers (philosophers throughout history) did not acknowledge a separation between philosophy/religion and that separation is only imposed upon them from outside by modern questioners. So when Moses, Akhenaten, Zarathustra, Thales, Anaximander, Pythagoras, Xenophanes, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Zeno, Anaxagoras, Socrates, Hippias, Antiphon, Antisthenes, Diogenes, Euclides, Plato, Aristotle, Jesus, Augustine, and a great many of the most peer-respected medieval & modern polymaths said: "There is only One: Exists" it is a conclusion of LOGIC (which in modern perspective terms may also be a statement of faith, but its primary assertion is LOGICAL). Otherwise one is stuck with infinite regress, which is a logical absurdity (or barbarism).

Thus the obstacle to asking the question of being [in timelessness] is that we are in time, and what is that clock on the wall measuring? (The rate of decay of material "reality".) So, to truly ask about being would require us to transcend that decay--that falling apart which is constantly and relentlessly upon us. In any attempt to do this, we would have to ask: "When or where (since space=time=distance) did material reality begin its falling apart?"

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 4 2019 13:10 utc | 149

For my own conscience I want to say I have changed my view of the HK protests in some ways after seeing a lot of calls for "independence" and "revolution", I can't support or feel any sympathy with any of that because it is offered without any hint of ability or realism and it is thus nothing but derisive manipulation which will only bring widespread destruction and ruin to those living in HK with no chance of success, improvements, or continued survival even if the proponents "win" and are left alone afterwards. It's pure madness.

Although I don't take back my views of HK's problems etc. (but that is increasingly irrelevant) a lot of you as well as b were more correct about the protests than I were.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Aug 4 2019 16:59 utc | 150

IN any COLOR rev, only may be 1% are 'insiders', the rest , the swarming adolecents, are just brainwashed zombies, cannon folders slated for martydom , they'r the WMDemonisation.

From the horse mouth, '
Cai Ling, ring leader of the CIA TAM caper,

'The situation has become so dangerous. The students asked me what we were going to do next. I wanted to tell them that we were expecting bloodshed, that it would take a massacre, which would spill blood like a river through Tiananmen Square, to awaken the people.

But how could I tell them this? How could I tell them that their lives would have to be sacrificed in order to win?'

She wouldnt be one of the sacrificial lamb of course, hightailed to murikka on the first plane out, or was she spirited out by the yellow bird op. ?

The Tibetan rioters, Uighurs militants, HKers, TAM students, workers were all meant to be sacrificed on the altar of 'democracy', they'r the unwitting patsies doing the empire and their 'leaders' bidding.
its their leaders who reaped the prestige and honor and ........prolly windfalls....

The insiders...

Martin Lee , I'd allow he's an unwitting patsy, on account of his effort to save the ethnic Chinese during the CIA orchestrated pogrom in 1998.

JImmy Lai, otoh, is the proverbial quisling.
He actually look the part...
https://www.hongkongfp.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/POWERPNT_2019-07-09_14-36-27.jpg

prior to the 2014 HK umbrella rev., uber neocon Paul Wolferwicz visited Lai on his private yahct in the HK harbor, what do you figure was the genda in that day long confab, horse racing, the weather, or may be the two had a fling ?

Even when the sob goes to the tea house, his yum cha buddy looks like a CIA/MI6 mofo,.
In this scene he is shouted down by the other
patrons, 'traitor, traitor'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9Avplyrjt4

No country would tolerate such brazen, open
collaboration bet a traitor and his foreign buddies. least of all the [[[family]]].

The Brits ostensibly left HK 1997, but in true form, they left behind a booby trap, the one country two system treaty sans any extradition clause.
HK in effect become fukus largest overea spook centre, a gawd damned CIA/MI6 bridgehead right at China's doorstep, with the legislator, education, churches, civil services all crawling with spooks or their local compradors, whether witting or the unwitting varieties.
HK was already fucked on the day it's 'returned' to the motherland.

Without an extradition clause,
CCP cant do shit with traitors like Lai and
the likes of Brien Kern, field commander of the
swarming adolecents, never mind crooks , murderers who seek sanctuary in the paradise of anarchy.

This is one reason Lai and his fukus mentors organise this massive op to kill the proposed act, cuz once it goes thru, CIA/MI6 safe house, aka their HK consulates can say bye bye to its hitherto impunity to create havoc right at China doorstep , Lai and his ilks would be marched off to Beijing to receive their just deserts/

There's also the TW angle, as raised by poster Mark [?] this is prolly a fukus/tw join op., long in the planning.

At the end of the day, the extradition clause, the TW factor are just the sideshows.
The current caper is simply part and parcel of fukus agenda....incessant destabilisation attempts since 1949, in TAM, Tibet, Xinjiang, HK ...

[[[the family]]] are professional arsonists,
they earn their living by starting fire, then 'help' by pouring kerosene on it.
No hard feeling, its all business folks.

Posted by: denk | Aug 4 2019 17:25 utc | 151

Sunny Runny Burger 152


I thought you'r one of the sock puppets like
pft and his ilks, I've change my mind,

Posted by: denk | Aug 4 2019 17:45 utc | 152

The organizers of the riots in Hong Kong are hoping they will spread to the mainland. A very faint chance of that IMO.

The General Strike tomorrow will probably be touted as a success however because the rioters will make it impossible for people to get to work even if they want to.

Posted by: dh | Aug 4 2019 18:43 utc | 153

@anarcharsis 151

Thank you for the great and thoughtful replies.

I don't agree that Heidegger is a waste of time, however. His thought about technology and globalism is still as pertinent as it was post-WW2.

What is your favorite Kierkegaard work? I credit Fear and Trembling for my conversion to Christianity, currently reading the Sickness Unto Death, so I understand what you mean by the logic of the logos and how the hounds of heaven are always nipping at our heels.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 5 2019 4:03 utc | 154

@NemesisCalling 156:

--I have not read everything from Kierkegaard yet, but of those works I have, the most important is Philosophical Fragments or a Fragment of Philosophy, which would follow the Ethical v Religiousness fracture of Fear and Trembling with the fracture btwn Rel. A v Rel. B: so, essentially his main point of his pseudonymous "writing career." The basic text is around 100 pages--it deals with many of the very issues we have discussed.

Posted by: Anacharsis | Aug 5 2019 5:03 utc | 155

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