Posted by: aspnaz | Jul 28 2019 10:56 utc | 102

So the chef down the local restaurant who is a migrated mainlander, helping to keep HK salaries low, is not the fault of the government?

You really have a problem with people from the Mainland, don’t you? Aside from your repellent racism, which you appear to have adopted wholesale from your HK relatives, you should understand how absurd your position is. The overwhelming majority of families in HK are only one or two generations away from the Mainland, i.e. a thirty-five year old here will have parents who very likely came to HK from China (usually Guangdong). HK is very much a society of immigrants — from China.
It is inevitable that people from China will come to live in Hong Kong. You appear to be complaining because you don’t like Putonghua speakers.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Jul 28 2019 11:09 utc | 103

Posted by: aspnaz | Jul 28 2019 11:10 utc | 104

The people of Hong Kong are already at risk of rendition if they criticize China: Remember the HK booksellers, kidnapped while abroad, taken to China and forced to give TV confessions to mainland China courts. That is the reality: The people of HK know what China will do if they criticize China!

If the booksellers are the only thing you can cite in this respect — and let’s face it, they are — then you are on pretty shaky ground, and I am not going to bother further.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Jul 28 2019 11:13 utc | 105

flankerbandit @92 said: “[The trolls] will of course end up sorely disappointed…China is not Georgia or Ukraine where their stunts can have some effect.”
Good post, and correct. It is surprising how badly these State Department/Atlantic Council trolls misread the situation in Hong Kong. Protests alone are not going to do more than annoy the rest of the HK population, even if they do somehow manage to get 2 million people on board with the staged events. They absolutely need the CIA death squad snipers to shoot up the protesters and police at one of these events in order to gain broader sympathy from the HK population, but that is not so easy in HK as in Libya, Syria, or Ukraine. Chinese intelligence and even the Hong Kong Triads are fully expecting the CIA’s antics and keep wrecking the CIA’s plans. So long as there is no violence that the complicit corporate mass media can pin on the authorities then the protests will remain simple events… staged entertainment for a portion of the HK population. The protests will go nowhere and die out as the audience/attendees realize that they have better things to do with their lives.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 28 2019 11:42 utc | 107

As a neutral, objective outsider I’m not convinced by Herr Ringbone’s reply. He couldn’t refute aspnaz’s accusation. Neither the USA’s manipulation can in itself refute the possibility of legitimate grievances. I don’t know aspnaz, but he/she doesn’t sound like the Venezuelan opposition (scoundrels). The truth “might” be more complex.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 28 2019 11:50 utc | 109

To note that the portrayal given of the extradition bill is not complete.
In essence it would allow extradition of Hongkongers and Taiwanese to mainland China from Hong Kong, something both do not trust to do.
The reason it is controversial is because the impartiality of mainland law is disputed, the application for extradition would be based on mainland accusation towards a person. That is to say that extradition could occur before any proof of guilt, before a trial had occured, that there could be no clear safeguard against abuse of its application, that the creation of an unwanted form of complicity between the two judicial systems might occur, and that the Hong Kong judicial system might become corrupted in favour of China’s because the bill would be a mechanism allowing for this to happen.
Anyone half bothered could read through and understand the different facets to the dispute at
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_extradition_bill
It is hoped that those who are fast to accuse of the use of lawfare elsewhere will not be trying to apply double standards to readers.

Posted by: gzon | Jul 28 2019 12:15 utc | 111

Note how the Asperger Nazi pointed out how he “attended” a protest. This is an important part of the distinction between fake and staged “protest events” and genuinely organic protests. Did he participate in organizing the protest? Did he hear about it from an organizer at his workplace, or a group passing out leaflets on a street corner? Did he pass out leaflets himself and try to convince others to help?
No, of course not. The Asperger Nazi heard about the protest event from TV advertisements days ahead of time. The advertisements may have been disguised as news segments, but they are advertisements nonetheless.
Fake protest events don’t have participants, but rather attendees and audiences. The top organizers are salaried professionals from event management corporations. They often hire hundreds of people (usually college students on vacation) days ahead of time to train them up to act as event chaperones. Typically the event chaperones will themselves be managed by a couple dozen trainers and handlers that the event management company brings in from abroad (Britain or the US). The event chaperones will be issued identical t-shirts with an event logo professionally silkscreened on them. They will also be issued identical whistles or other signalling devices on lanyards that they wear around their necks. They will likewise be issued backpacks with some “protest supplies”, such as hand towels or bandannas and bottles of solutions to neutralize teargas and things like that. On the day of the protest event each of the event chaperones will attempt to form squads of about a dozen or less protesters and explain signalling so that the squad can coordinate its actions. In this manner the few hundred event chaperones can steer thousands of event attendees, and by herd instinct the rest of the attendees/audience will follow.
The event management corporation will handle the marketing of the protest event. This includes working out with local TV station producers and even international TV network producers how the event is to be portrayed and TV viewers attracted to it. “Guerrilla marketing” tactics will also be employed. See the linked Wikipedia article for examples. Entertainers and notable athletes will be contracted to promote the protest event, and if possible an outdoor stage with sound system, light show, and jumbotron screens will be arranged for the entertainers to perform from (particularly notable at the fake Maidan protests in Kiev back in 2013-2014).
Key here is that none of the attendees/audience participate in organizing the protest event. The event just seems to happen all on its own and all the attendees/audience have to do is show up.
Real and “organic” protests are a whole different matter.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 28 2019 12:48 utc | 113

too

Posted by: john | Jul 28 2019 13:07 utc | 115

The USSA “security services” are all over the world, ceaselessly promoting “color revolutions” and controlling media of all kinds.
Whether they have a any success or not is not that important. Their job security is really all that matters.
They sure are expensive for the USSA population, but who cares about them?

Posted by: blues | Jul 28 2019 13:25 utc | 117

Importantly, the US instigated the coup in Honduras which ousted a democratically elected socialist president.
Obama, Hillary and her friend Lanny Davis were hands on – instrumental to its success.
After the coup, a succession of right wing crooks and head knockers, police and military made Honduras a living hell for the common people.
Hence, a significant number of refugees are fleeing the murder and mayhem.
To the USA, where, sadly, the Obama administration was locking them up in cages.
Trump, as we know has continued to cage them. There’s money in it for crony capitalists at a reported $750 per head. Very cruel and sad.

Posted by: Kristan hinton | Jul 28 2019 13:26 utc | 119

Acar Burak @119
The process that I described above costs lots of money. Many $millions. It also requires the complicity of the so-call “free press” corporate mass media. If you overlook that aspect then indeed it is you who are being naive.
Who has $millions and would pay them to disrupt the empire’s satrap in Haiti? How could those people recoup their investment? Particularly when any such investors would certainly understand that the empire can outspend them and will just install another satrap after this one is deposed? More critically, where is the mass media cheering on the protesters in Haiti?
To be certain, it is possible to fool people into thinking external agents are behind genuine protests, but only when those people who are fooled overlook the practical aspects of organizing protests. In fact, in order to successfully fool the fooled it is necessary for the “free press” corporate mass media to participate in the deception.
This last point cannot be stressed enough: Whichever “side” the “free press” corporate mass media is supporting in a protest is the bad guys in every single case. The only time the “free press” corporate mass media will suddenly discover the righteousness of a genuine protest is if they realize that their necks are on the chopping blocks next if they continue to back the empire.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 28 2019 13:58 utc | 121

Responding to the criticisms to my posts:
1) all hybrid wars have an “organic” component. What differentiates a legitimate revolt from a hybrid war is the artificiality of its growth: in a popular uprising, growth is organic (result of mass mobilization by the working classes themselves), in a hybrid war (or just a color revolution), growth comes from material and human resources help from the USA. As the Americans themselves admit, the degree of its growth is unpredictable, and depends on many variables within the target country itself.
2) for newcomers here, please read my comments on a past free tread here. The sequence of events clearly indicates a textbook hybrid warfare modus operandi: from pacif to violent — this violence growing on a constant and linear degree. There was no chance a color revolution would topple the Lam government (because it won the popular vote in the last elections), so the protest leaders knew they needed a body count to escalate it to unconventional warfare. Was it a purely organic uprising, the protest would’ve stopped once Lam killed the bill: any legitimate opposition without a prospect of absolute victory would stop right there and declare victory, thus maintaining the mobilization and stepping up to the phase of organization (probably, founding a new localist party to dispute the next elections); that wasn’t the case with these protests, which clearly tried to breed chaos and thus creating a theater for guerilla warfare (one of the main tactics for unconventional warfare).
3) yes, the movement initially attracted 2 million people to the streets (it probably was much less, but that’s not the point here). But after Lam withdrew the bill, those 2 million immediately turned into 70,000, which then turned into 30,000 (again, those are the propaganda numbers, spread by the Western MSM, so you cannot accuse me of being pro-Beijing with them). Meanwhile, a pro-Beijing movement attracted 500,000 to the streets of Hong Kong. This movement of the masses clearly indicates the anti-bill protests had a highly artificial inflating factor — possibly with paid protesters and paid propaganda. My bet would be that some American NGO is paying some student leaders in HK to organize the whole thing.
4) the main problem with the anti-Beijing protesters is that their cause is utopic: full independence in not viable for Hong Kong not much because of the Mainland grip, but because the natural conditions make the construction of a Nation-State unfeasible. Hong Kong doesn’t have agriculture and doesn’t have a significant source of water. The UK is now an impoverished giant and doesn’t have the resources to sustain and eventual “independent” HK. It would continue to be a de facto province of China on economic pressure alone (as is already the case of Taiwan — a much bigger and naturally richer island). And the majority of the HK people know this: the localist parties (yes, the pro-independence movement in HK is not even united) never won an election.
5) I’m not saying that the USA is evil. Good and Evil are Christian concepts, therefore they are idealisms and don’t exist in the real world. We Marxists don’t use them. What I’m saying is that the USA is using its strengths to order to gain a geopolitical advantage over its two main enemies of the 21st Century: Russia and China. Those advantages are: military logistics (hundreds of bases around the world; supremacy over the Seven Seas and the Dollar Standard) and soft power (the world still believes that the USA system is, if not the best possible model, the least worse). Those are the two ingredients only the USA have. Hybrid Warfare, therefore, is a war tactic that is very cheap — both in the political and material sense — for the Americans to use: no wonder it was created by them and only them use it.

Posted by: vk | Jul 28 2019 14:58 utc | 123

@124 vk
I don’t disagree with that, except for “I’m not saying that the USA is evil.” I say, as an atheist, the USA is deeply, unbelievably evil. Yet I don’t want to be blind to the sufferings of people under much much much less evil rulers as well. Any ruler is better, much better in comparison to the rule of US. But I don’t blindly approve them, in themselves, as good ones.
I admit I hadn’t looked at the links etc.; yes, it seems a genuine colour rev! Yet again US, not always, but sometimes if not most of the times, use an already existing wound.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 28 2019 15:33 utc | 125

Vaughn L. Treude 77
“What a shame that pro-democracy and pro-liberty movements get tainted by association with US government opportunism.”
So very true. The groups want support. Unfortunately they get it from the likes of Pompeo. I watched a TED talk from 2015 about our democracy not representing us. It pointed to the Hong Kong protests of 2014 and how the candidates were selected by a committee for the people to vote on instead of a more democratic process.

Posted by: Curtis | Jul 28 2019 16:30 utc | 127

Posted by: Pft | Jul 28 2019 6:35 utc | 89:

Calling Martin Lee a US stooge is BS. A true Patriot (HK) if there ever was one. I don’t deny the US has a hand in fueling the fire, but the HK people (bottom 90%) have some legitimate grievances.

The real grievance of Hongkongers is the rampart income and wealth disparity in Hong Kong. That this grievance is not even mentioned by the protesters is an ominous sign that the movement has been hijacked by those who have ulterior motivations.

Posted by: difficult bird | Jul 28 2019 17:01 utc | 129

Gruff – please provide a detailed historical example of an “organic” protest in your terms.
I go back to the 60s and every single major protest movement since that time fits neatly inside your simplistic box. None can pass your smell test. Not to mention you offer no positive steps to correct what you see as a problem, except banning/ignoring people with different ideas from you who are automatically considered paid trolls. And this is just blog commentary we’re talking about not y’know, organised political agitation, a relatively toothless pasttime for old timers. Duly noted even here in a commenters’ community you take the side of the supposed “insider” status-quo and seek to push out anyone with different ideas.
Grow up Gruff. Your schtick was already overly tired in 2005. It lives on here among a few self-identified “insiders” only because b to his credit doesn’t believe in ideological banning. I could name names but its the same ol high volume commenters who start the insinuations of “lot of trolls out tonight” or whatever baloney to rally the like minded into a clique of “anti-subversion.”
Every movement has its agitators and its co-opters, all with agendas of their own. Every revolution contains counter-revolutions (real and imagined) within its power structures (AKA “power struggles”). And yes, every revolution has its power structure too. Inescapable given human need for social hierachy. This is also the fatal flaw within every political movement (and in fact human civilisation itself) that from the beginning it plants the seeds for fractiousness, division and eventual downfall.
What’s to do then? Bow to the inevitable power of the state, is that your reactionary, arch conservative solution Gruff? Seems the only logical answer to be inferred from your ongoing repetitive tiresome same ol same ol “troll hunting”.
Maybe you are a CIA troll. See how easy that is?
At least start backing up your schtick with some relevant data. You have gone beyond simplistic and boring dude.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 28 2019 17:11 utc | 131

@120 Kristian
Small correction. Then democratically elected president Manuel Zelaya wasn’t a socialist, he wasn’t even to the left as he admitted in a recent interview with Anya Parampil @TheGrayzone.

Posted by: Vato | Jul 28 2019 17:26 utc | 133

One wonders how long it will take before other countries kick US NGOs like the CIA front organization the National Endowment for Democracy and Soro’s Open Society out of their countries as the subversives that they are.

Posted by: Jeff | Jul 28 2019 17:59 utc | 135

As a simple rule of thumb “If any organs of the US State or its allies appear to support a political demonstration, that demonstration ought automatically to be condemned by anti-imperialists and democrats of any kind”.
The only demonstrations worth supporting are those organised by principled opponents of the state and spontaneous responses to actions supported by the state.
Where the state in question is at loggerheads with the Empire any opposition to that state is going to be contaminated by imperialist money and support.
The truth is that in almost every case where the Empire, and this includes its ideological engines such as the media, is supporting opposition to the state which it is attempting to overthrow, support for demonstrations is not only mistaken but counter productive.
No good can come from actions which the imperialists approve of, guide and promote. This must be the case because the purpose of the imperialists is to enslave, rape and plunder populations.
The lessons of Iran in 2009, Kiev in 2014, Venezuela today, Brazil last year etc etc, of Libya and Syria and of the overthrow of Aristide in Haiti are quite clear: the Empire exploits the poor and the disenfranchised, it aims not to liberate them but to bind them into a slavery more profound than any previously undergone.
With reference to Hong Kong, no doubt there are plenty of genuine grievances with the CP government. There are also plenty of tensions of a caste and racial nature, borne of the long rule of the imperialists, employing the place as a base from which to impose its deleterious rule on a population that it exploited in every way including the trafficking (kidnapping and sale) of millions of ‘coolies.’
Anyone with any sense in Hong Kong knows that the National Endowment of Democracy and the UK Foreign Office are not involved to promote the interests of the people but to revive the fascist power that the Communists displaced and the “west” supported for so long.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 28 2019 18:10 utc | 137

@ James

…personally i think donkey might work at NED which would explain his take!!

I second that.
I reiterate again WG’s excellent point that if the MSM are supporting ‘protests’ you can be sure it is part of a destabilization campaign by the usual suspects.
A corollary to that is to simply assume the opposite of what the MSM is saying is the actual truth.

Posted by: flankerbandit | Jul 28 2019 19:00 utc | 139

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 28 2019 15:33 utc | 126
We must stop with these false moralisms: we all know that the question on the table here is not the welfare of the HK people, but on which terms it will be pacified.
If you cared about the welfare of the people in abstract, you would be talking about Africa and the Middle East, not Hong Kong.

Posted by: vk | Jul 28 2019 19:09 utc | 141

@vk 142
What a depravity of both mind and character.
By the way, the subject is Hong Kong.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 28 2019 19:18 utc | 143

NemesisCalling | Jul 27 2019 18:24 utc | 6
What is wrong with extraditing people accused of crimes to the places where they are alleged to have committed the crime? This bill that is being protested, seems to be hedged round with all sorts of restrictions on when it would be permissible to extradite someone. To me it looks like a pretty reasonable bill. What do you think is wrong with it?

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jul 28 2019 19:46 utc | 145

vk | Jul 27 2019 20:21 utc | 27

If the existence of a mafia is the indicator of a fascist state, then you’ll also have to worry about Japan (Yakuza), Taiwan (allied with the Hongkonger Triad), Hong Kong itself (Triad), Russia (Eurasiatic Mafia), Italy (where the term was created), USA (Kennedy’s family had link with the American mafia) and essentially all Latin America (where narcotrafic is in all but name mafias).

Check out too, while you are at it Ron Unz’s massive essay on “The Power of Organised Crime” in the Unz Review (unz.com)

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jul 28 2019 20:09 utc | 147

The Brexit “leavers” movement was heavily supported and influenced by powerful US political figures and billionaires.
Therefore, according to bevin’s “simple rule of thumb”, bevin should disown Brexit.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 28 2019 20:41 utc | 149

Or if you prefer it straight from the horse’s mouth here is the bill: https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr18-19/english/bills/brief/b201903291_brf.pdf

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jul 28 2019 22:12 utc | 151

It is very clear that the State Department (NED) and Atlantic Council crew have gotten their marching orders concerning Hong Kong! Apparently the State Department thinks their HK operation still has legs and can be revitalized with sufficient astroturfing.
If b were to publish on the empire’s disruption efforts in Russia that are in the news these last couple days you can expect the very same crew to be casting FUD on b’s analysis and talking up the clown Navalny like he was the real “opposition” to Putin’s United Russia party. These tools would even have defended Random Guaido if they could have thought of a way to do so without being universally laughed at. Where Hong Kong is concerned, however, they are nursing the mistaken impression that there is still an opening to try and sell the corporate media narrative. The only people buying though are their astroturfing companions.
One may wonder why they come to these alternative media sites that provide analysis that is independent of the empire’s artificial narratives. Do they imagine readers here might somehow have not heard the mass media’s take on things already and that if the astroturfers regurgitate the corporate media narratives readers here will be “enlightened” and flock back to Huffington Post and similar imperialist forums? More likely they are just following orders. Still, their presence here indicates that the empire is concerned about the analysis that b shares and the discussions that follow that sharing. That concern is gratifying.

Posted by: Willam Gruff | Jul 28 2019 22:35 utc | 153

@154 Willam
Who is your real patron? Whose orders are you taking to police the forums?
You sell the left as a very power hungry, fascistic and extremely idiotic position; you and your “comrades” are excellent left repellents –though only for the idiotic youngsters.
But if you don’t have a patron (which I doubt) and you’re a genuine charlatan, that’s even worse. I always smile when all those scoundrels in the West are called left, progressive etc. And now I see the real left and I laugh. Really.
What a farce! Hilarious!!!!

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 28 2019 23:28 utc | 155

* reluctant, not reticent

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 28 2019 23:37 utc | 157

@154 William Gruff – “…why they come to these alternative media sites that provide analysis that is independent of the empire’s artificial narratives. Do they imagine readers here might somehow…”
You raise a good point that is worth considering.
We know that everything they do is done in full mediocrity, and that it either fails to achieve anything or else actually results in a loss of what they had before. If the same dynamic is at work here, then one could expect to see that they are actually losing with every slanderous and attacking comment they make.
Why do they hurt themselves in this way, by sending in sub-par operatives to engage with the very view that comes from having seen through the pretense they use as cover?
Can it be that they know one thing better than us, which is that this very conversation is a fatal threat to them? In a way that we fail to measure to its full weight, do they see they are losing? Is it possible that they see that for every troll they send, thousands may be liberated from thralldom? And the more they see this liberation, the more they double down?
This “death by irony” would match everything else they do.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 29 2019 1:57 utc | 159

Grieved @ 160:
“… Why do they hurt themselves in this way, by sending in sub-par operatives to engage with the very view that comes from having seen through the pretense they use as cover? …”
You think that the likes of GCHQ and their equivalents in Langley and Tel Aviv will willingly pay impoverished university students or otherwise unemployable dole-chq takers on zero-hours styled contracts a decent wage for their pains?
Even hiring people to staff the trolling call-centres is subjected to the rigours of neoliberal labour hiring and remuneration.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 29 2019 2:15 utc | 161

Grieved and Jen
Thank you both for perfectly illustrating my comment as I was typing.
Yes, of course, you have it all figured out yet no one hears you because an army of paid trolls has nefariously rendered the righteously clever alt media commenters of the world incapable of growing the necessary critical mass online to save a planet of 4 billion lost souls from enslavement by the Deep State.
This is why there is no counter force in real life to the incipient fascism ascending control of political power structures world wide while we type.
But at least we have identified comforting (if somewhat shadowy) alibis to blame for the failure of the anti-establishment internet conmunity to save the world…one…comment…at a time.
And for that we can thank Ed Snowden…NSA.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 29 2019 3:13 utc | 163

@donkey… i wonder what that silly rabbit would say, lol…he hasn’t been around this weekend! really though, i think you’re kicking a dead horse for the most part… if you don’t believe colour revolutions and etc happen, or that trolls work for the empire and are a part of the game, then do you believe in the tooth ferry? lol.. just kidding… what kind of doris in the yellow brick road are you?!!!
i too tend to see it like wg and flankerbandit – “A corollary to that is to simply assume the opposite of what the MSM is saying is the actual truth.” unfortunately there is a lot of truth to this from my own experience…

Posted by: james | Jul 29 2019 5:00 utc | 165

I have seen the true face of the HK demonstrations in the Australian Financial Review photo of the demonstrators holding US flags, I think,that is a good example of the real reason and source of this disturbances ,

Posted by: Pawel | Jul 29 2019 9:16 utc | 167

Donkeytale
Is a revolution that benefits the ZionistAnglo Empire’s hegemony legitimate? The Empire is fascism on a global scale. Do you not see that? The higher goal should be to remove that scourge not add to its power. If the Empire hijacks a foreign domestic protest for its own power-driven agenda, how does that benefit so many more others on the planet who don’t want to be under its dominion?
Your thinking is naive and driven by the humanitarian propaganda that the Empire uses as a Trojan Horse to move in and take over.
I don’t want Zionist America in every corner of the world exerting its militaristic world order by chaos! F.ck it! I am for a multi-polar world where Zionist America and its vassals don’t dictate the rule by breaking international law!
Again, you are not right on this.

Posted by: Circe | Jul 29 2019 12:35 utc | 169

@152 foolisholdman
In the case of Brexit, I would discard who prefers what. Brexit is America’s gain. Better to reign in the poorhouse than to serve in the palace. In Europe the UK always demands exceptionalism. When it becomes more dependent on the US, the latter will make the demands.
Now, of course, the UK could use a lesson in humility, and so far Brexit has certainly delivered on that! 😁
I think the U.K. should quit acting like Europe’s primadonna, return to the fold and play nice with others. The alternative is probably more karmic spanking.
@166 StarMan
Why am I not surprised?
Especially that Marco Rubio weaseled his way into this.

Posted by: Circe | Jul 29 2019 13:59 utc | 171

Circe – what in my comment made you believe that I think the “Fascist ZioAnglo Empire” is doing the right thing on our behalf with its unchecked global militaristic and financial power and tyranny?? You just repeated what I stated in the form of an accusatory question. Are you daft? Lol
Internet rule number 1 – accurately describing something is not the same as endorsing it.
So maybe I should start lying to get along then all will be better? Or go away so this board can retain its wholistic sense of….what exactly? Comment thread purity? A loyalty oath to the high volume commenters?
My comments above were directed at Gruff and bevin mainly with related asides directed at Grieved and Jen. I believe I was clear in my statements to all.
I am not a neoliberal, I am not a conservative and I am not a progressive. I do believe the world is tragically shot through with neoliberalism, and trending moreso each day, including the economies of Russia and China. I remain skeptical that China is on the verge of a glorious socialist renaissance. Maybe they will fulfill the lofty promises they make today in white papers and speeches. Maybe not. I am completely convinced the robust Chinese economy which was borne of immense western multinational corporate investment into cheap industrial labour is not in fact a socialist economy at all.
Why would the wealthiest elites in the US and around world who own massive shares of Apple Computer and General Motors have any issue with China? Hint: they don’t. They are loving China all the way to the bank. Trump’s bluff and bluster with his tariff wars is all for show. Just like everything else he promotes, the real story is fealty to the global elites, zionist and other. At the end of the day he is all about creating more income/wealth inequality not less and his record bears that out.
I suspect the Chinese white papers are also all for show and they will continue to create more income/wealth inequality as their robust capitalist economy matures whether by design or the internal corrupting logic of surplus capital accumulation in the hands of the bourgeoisie. If I’m wrong I will readily admit it.
Of course the US/Israel is the GREATER EVIL. But global fascism is the GREATEST EVIL and it is gaining ground by the day. And it won’t be defeated by erroneous theories and useful idiocy whether on behalf of Empire or against.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 29 2019 16:03 utc | 173

Bunn Nagara, 28 Jul 2019 in «The Star», Malaysia:
Hong Kong protesters have committed at least a dozen strategic errors
– One, they assume Hong Kong is essential to the mainland’s future when only the reverse is true. There is no equivalence between Hong Kong and the mainland in any way that works for Hong Kong.
– Two, protest appeals to mainlanders for support mistakenly attempt to rekindle the spirit of Tienanmen Square protests a generation ago. Those protesters are now part of the system in a prosperous new China, actively engaged in business or government. Their original 1989 complaint of corruption in high places is keenly addressed by Beijing.
– Three, attempts to solicit mainlanders’ support are badly confused with prejudice against them. Within days of trying to spread the protest message to mainlanders in July, protesters attacked mainland traders, shoppers and tourists.
– Four, protesters violently attacked police personnel, alienating many Hong Kongers including most protesters. It signalled a slide towards civil disorder.
– Five, vandalising the Legislative Council building established illegal conduct and further alienated everyone else.
– Six, more violence was targeted at the liaison office when sympathisers had thought protesters would never do that. It confirmed the criminality discrediting the protests as a whole.
– Seven, besides disrupting traffic and commerce, harassing passengers at the airport and train stations, it did nothing to promote their cause to the general public but quite the opposite.
– Eight, protests did not subside even after Hong Kong’s Executive backed down on the extradition Bill. It revealed the unreasonable nature of the protests.
– Nine, no protester had demanded democracy for Hong Kong in 156 years of British colonial rule. If they had, they may have a legitimate basis for demanding democracy today.
– Ten, it was foolish to unfurl the Union Jack and call for reverting to British rule. Seeking the denial of democracy by a foreign hand exposes the hypocrisy of the protests.
– Eleven, it was foolhardy to unfurl “Old Glory,” calling for US intervention during a US-China trade war. With trade a major basis of Hong Kong’s survival, it was politically suicidal.
– Twelve, protesters fail to understand that no other country can or would do what is necessary to boost Hong Kong’s fortunes. Only the mainland can do that if it wants to.

Posted by: Rolf | Jul 29 2019 16:37 utc | 175

@176 donkey
Once again, donkey, another silly comment regarding the inherent racism of a nationalist perspective.
Look. And please read to understand this: nationalism is not a step forward from globalism. It is a step back. And I view its awakening as a necessary step in stemming the tide of runaway globalism.
You on the other hand are waiting for exactly what? Going ‘further’ than globalism? Well what the fuck is further than globalism? I don’t think you have to be a genius to understand how absurd going further than globalism is on paper. Transglobalism? Lol.
You need to understand that fighting globalism with nationalism is nothing more than making one’s elites again beholden to the welfare of the nation. That is what I mean when I say nationalism. Rid yourself of any projecting motion that nationalism is call sign for racism. Isn’t that the same correlation that the msm uses when daring to mutter that term?
I could argue all day that nationalism and holding a knife to the throats of national elites is the natural repose of a saner society.

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Jul 29 2019 18:41 utc | 177

Circe @177 asks “What good is that?”
It is good for the empire when other countries drop their defenses against the empire. Those defenses can be military (think Libya), economic (think Venezuela), or cultural (think Ukraine or Hong Kong). It is natural for tools of the empire to want things that help the empire maintain or grow its hegemony. Do the tools of empire really care if this ends up hurting the empire’s targets? Of course not.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 29 2019 19:10 utc | 179

@180 donkey
Come, come, chap. Answer the question. You can make judgements on whole movements, but I can’t call you out on it?
What is the evolution from globalism but the start of calling our elites back to their senses and their own people?
Anything?

Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Jul 29 2019 19:36 utc | 181

And this…
I could argue all day that nationalism and holding a knife to the throats of national elites is the natural repose of a saner society.
Commence arguing….I have all day…you can make that argument backed by factual evidence?
No argument akin to bevin’s on the B-o-rexit thread please.
“It could happen, maybe, if only” etc.
Historical, empirical evidence please. Not buying the old “it will be different this time” argument.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 29 2019 20:18 utc | 183

Support for nationalism stems from either complete naivety and ignorance or outright reactionary mind set. It’s really euphemism for fascism.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 29 2019 20:51 utc | 185

#185 Acar Burak should brush up on some political theory. Fascism is simply corporate governance, like what we have in the USA. It can be nationalistic, as in Trump’s version of fascism, or it can feign inclusivity with a globalist element and be anti-nationalistic, like the DNC version of fascism.
Nationalism is neither good nor bad in itself, it is, in fact the foundation of modern democracy, without nationalism, democracy doesn’t work and multi-national globalist organizations run things without input from the people.

Posted by: Jason | Jul 29 2019 21:56 utc | 187

@186 Indrid Cold

And globalism is a euphemism for imperialism…or indeed colonialism very often. What of it?

Off course, it is.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 29 2019 22:00 utc | 189

Funny to watch donkey run rhetorical circles around others that apparently ignored my own interactions with donkey.
If anyone had cared to pay attention, they would know what I pointed out long ago and many times: that donkey’s entire shtick is about making a false equivalence between nationalism elite interests in different countries.
Don’t believe your lying eyes! donkey declares, there is no Cold War II and no difference between the Empire and the upstarts. LOL.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 29 2019 22:14 utc | 191

Nemesis
I don’t want to get bogged down on racism because that is merely one facet of this discussion but racism is simply “a lame and obvious trope of the MSM”? Lol. Cmon bro. Racism is what it is. It is overly abundant and fluorishing right along in lockstep goosestep with nationalism. Europeans can hide behind protecting their vaunted Kultur or wtf all they want. Amounts to same thing. In doing so however they sound more than a bit vaguely fascist to me…Only a non-woke (AKA asleep at the wheel) white guy will deny racism is racism when confronted with the existence of rascism.
And ideological nationalism is frequently….no, pretty much always, not only racially exclusionary, but culturally exclusionary, class exclusionary, militaristically right wing politics exclusionary. You either conform to the dictates of the nationalist police state or all hell tends to break loose on your head from any one or a combination of these angles.
If you merely meant to say that the only opportunity to defeat the political power structure supporting globalisation starts in our own [national] backyards I agree with you there. But to support a movement that is in fact bought and paid for by the very political power structure that supports globalisation and expect this will defeat globalism is bonkers.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 29 2019 23:20 utc | 193

Nemesis – always a pleasure. Thanks and your points are well taken.
Acar I appreciate your contributions here as well. Im vaguely familiar w Robinson and do recall what I read about him not being overtly racist.
However, it is the system of racism that I find abhorrent and heartbreaking and I deal with it daily in my working life.
This is also the problem I have with ideological nationalism. It begets systematic racism, at least in the US.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jul 30 2019 0:38 utc | 195

donkeytale
Thanks. Sorry, I’ve thought you’re in the UK.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 30 2019 2:00 utc | 197

In response to your article, Sean Gleeson, journalist, wrote,
The idea that Washington has the ability to foment any kind of civil unrest in any part of China is insane and that has been shown by recent history, when China in one week completely dismantled America’s spy network and secretly shot all its participants in 2017. Claims of a “color revolution” are straight out of Beijing propaganda.
“U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met with Hong Kong pro-democracy leader Martin Lee on Thursday, the State Department said,”
Wow, very cloak and dagger. They had a meeting that they publicly announced where they… what? Plotted the downfall of Beijing together? Martin Lee is a third-tier democracy activist who has nowhere near anything resembling a high profile in this current round of protests.
Protesters wearing all black streamed through the Yuen Long area, even though police refused to grant permission for the march, citing risks of confrontations between demonstrators and local residents.
They were protesting in Yuen Long because the government had sanctioned an attack on peaceful demonstrators in Yuen Long by local criminal triads some days before. The police were at the edge of the MTR station where the attack happened and were seen speaking to the triad members beforehand, but didn’t arrive in the station until the attack finished. A pregnant woman was beaten and possibly miscarried in the affray. These were people who were returning to their homes quietly and peacefully from a rally elsewhere in the city that day.
Lee and other U.S. stooges organized large demonstrations against an extradition bill which would allow the government to send people who committed crimes in mainland China, Taiwan and Macau to those provinces where the crime was committed to receive their punishment. Hong Kong already has similar agreements with foreign countries.
Do you think that Hong Kongers might have reason to be wary of the mainland Chinese justice system? Ever heard of the Falun Gong?
influenced by the U.S. paid leaders
Where is the evidence?
They defiled family graves or pro-Chinese politicians
The grave they defiled belonged to the parents of Junius Ho, who was seen shaking hands with several of the triad members that staged the attack in Yuen Long.
harassed elderly arrivals (vid) at Hong Kong’s airport
Pathetic. They were responding to one elderly man who attempted to physically attack students who were handing out leaflets to international arrivals.
What is not only omitted – but actively denied – is the fact that the opposition’s core leaders, parties, organizations, and media operations are all tied directly to Washington DC via the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and corporate foundations like Open Society Foundation.
I used to work for a partly NED-funded publication. The NED could not organise a piss up in a brewery. George Soros is a bogeyman for racists like Orban because he funds universities and libraries in authoritarian countries where state control is the governing logic. But OSF is useless too.
Hong Kong has 7.5 million inhabitants. While demonstrations of several ten thousands seems big, they does not represent a majority.
I have seen these demonstrations with my own eyes. At their peak, somewhere between one in four and one in three of the nativeborn Hong Kong population were participating. Several ten thousands my balls.
The so called ‘pro-democracy’ parties in Hong Kong have lost in each and every local election. The pro-China parties always receive a majority of votes.
THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM IS DELIBERATELY RIGGED TO GIVE PRO-BEIJING PARTIES REGULAR MAJORITIES!!

Posted by: JOHN GLEESON | Jul 30 2019 4:28 utc | 199