A lot of wrongness about China and Hong Kong is being spoken here in this thread. What part of a color revolution being attempted and being defeated do people not understand?
I’ll try eventually to dig up sources I’ve posted before to show that Hong Kong is the hapless loser and watches the rise of China helplessly, because China gave Hong Kong too much freedom, while the British gave Hong Kong nothing – least of all an innovative economy or democratic governance.
And so China waits, as it easily and most naturally can, until Hong Kong finds its way to become fully Chinese again. But it will be woefully behind the mainland in progress by the time that happens, thanks to its stagnant oligarchical rule.
Here, quickly, are two views to suggest that (1) Economic sufficiency gives birth to democratic freedom and not the other way around (as Dambisa Moyo illustrates), and that (2) Hong Kong is suffering from a surfeit of license to fail on the British model, because China has honored its agreement to allow two systems, and Hong Kong in its imperial heritage has no model from which to move forward (as Martin Jacques illustrates).
All in video clips, no transcripts.
Dambisa Moyo: Dambisa Moyo: Is China the new idol for emerging economies?
Martin Jacques: Martin Jacques‘ view on the Hong Kong development dilemma
and
Understanding the rise of China | Martin Jacques
Sorry I can’t take time now to offer more.

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 22 2019 5:12 utc | 103

@103 grieved
From what I understand, Grieved, it is true that China is winning in Hong Kong by playing the long game. They have a China-backed Gov’t in Hong Kong that is willing to temporarily suspend the implementation of laws pertaining to extradition that in effect are erasing further any semblance of Hong Kong sovereignty since China allowed the 2-way gov’t post-British rule.
The fact remains that for all intents and purposes, the population of Hong Kong know the inevitability of their plight but the majority feel strongly that what is happening to them is wrong and runs counter to their preferred notion of self-direction.
Reference my post above at 102 to understand how many here give preference to a majority population only if the will of that majority coincides with the world view of these posters. If it does not, screw them, and let them be absorbed by the borg of the East.
There is a lesson to be learned here and it has to do with not yielding to brute dictatorial force. We tell them not to yield in Venezuela but flip the logic in Hong Kong. Strange.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 22 2019 5:48 utc | 105

@ 53, 55, 58 Bevin and KC
I’ve seen the mural and I’m familiar with its history and intent. I know there’s nothing “patriotic” about it and never said there was. Which shows how ignorant the “conservative” culture warriors are in adopting it as one of their own. Meanwhile, the fact that the SJWs have targeted it merely shows how stupid and ignorant they are. Evidently they feel “triggered”, just as their opponents are triggered by the triggering. Thus I said a plague on both their houses.
Nevertheless I see it as artistically a mediocre work, thus my term “kitsch”. It wouldn’t have occurred to me to judge it at all – it is just a mural after all, one wouldn’t expect great art. I was just provoked by the direct comparison with the Bamiyan Buddhas, an absurd comparison, but all too typical of most Americans, who have zero sense of history or comparison.

Posted by: Russ | Jul 22 2019 7:31 utc | 107

Re the Naked Capitalism discussion
My experience there was similar to that described by several commenters. I was a regular commenter from early 2009 to autumn 2011, what looking back I’d call the more “radical” period of the site. I felt at home there and Yves seemed to like me.
But over the course of 2011 it seemed like there was a shift to a more moderate, “reformist” atmosphere, and I found myself being criticized “from above” (from Yves and some flunkey she had as a regular guest poster, forget his name) more and more. Eventually my comments started being moderated more and more often, and eventually I gave up and quit the place. It was starting to suck anyway.

Posted by: Russ | Jul 22 2019 7:38 utc | 109

Malaysia explains why it has a different opinion on MH17
via John Helmer
MH17 as a pretext for NATO to “recover the plane and the victims” makes sense.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 22 2019 9:16 utc | 111

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 22 2019 5:58 utc | 106
If you don’t read Apple Daily in Chinese then you will be out of touch with what is happening and what people are thinking and hoping for the future. You will also be out of touch with subjects such as Taiwan and the view on independence. White papers don’t cover anything of real interest to the locals.

Posted by: aspnaz | Jul 22 2019 10:31 utc | 113

The thing I find most intriguing about the Epstein affair is possibility that it provides a “hook” for the US intelligence community to really go after the Israeli lobby.
After all, going up against the *money* of the lobby is a forlorn hope – there is no way to fight them on that battlefield.
But this? No, this is different.
What Epstein has been up to is so obscene that it is now toxic to be associated with him. Everyone who claimed to be his friend are now running a mile from him.
But what if it is revealed that he had created this cesspool at the direction of Israel i.e. that the main motivation for this honey-pot was to provide Israel with blackmail material.
If that happened then a politician would run a mile at the mere sight of a lobby bag-man, because to be associated with them is to be tarred in a way that no amount of money could ever overcome.
I am certain that there are still honest people in the US intelligence community, and I would bet very good money that they are looking very closely at this as a chance to stab the Israel lobby through the heart with a wooden stake.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Jul 22 2019 10:55 utc | 115

Anon2
On the spies arrested,
Looks like westerners according to the photos?
https://www.rt.com/news/464727-iranian-media-photos-spies/

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 22 2019 11:08 utc | 117

Russ @107
Of course America has nothing that could be compared with culture in many other parts of the world. Anything that could provide the present with historical context is erased, bulldozed, or painted over. Even the remaking of “classic” movies is done in part to separate people’s sense of the present from America’s past. What America has in place of culture is an eternal now, with the past being ephemeral and contingent upon the needs of the narratives of the moment. Iconic American food culture is just ground and pureed mystery protein and carbonated corn syrup water. The consumer doesn’t want to know where those come from, and ten minutes after consuming them they have largely forgotten the experience.
Since the Apollo missions are in the news lately I will point out that we should expect an effort in the not too distant future similar to what we are seeing in San Francisco to erase the reality of that part of America’s history. After all, the Apollo astronauts were all white men, and that is traumatizing for the feeble-minded neolibs.
But you know, it isn’t a bad thing to want to try to develop genuine and historically anchored culture.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 22 2019 11:23 utc | 119

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 22 2019 10:57 utc | 117
There is a lot of wrongness written on all blogs, it is part of the process of filtering new ideas. Wrongness is good and not to be despised: despising wrongness makes one appear as though one is convinced that one is right, despite the absence of evidence that would enable everyone to see what is right: these days rarely arrive: Being “right” tends to go with being old. I’m fighting it. An open mind to ideas and activities is what keeps me feeling young.

Posted by: Aspnaz | Jul 22 2019 11:52 utc | 121

aspnaz@114
I really have to laugh out loud at your suggestion that people need to read the Apple Daily to know what is really going on in Hong Kong. Jimmy Lai (the proprietor) is famously antithetical to the Communist Party. I think he even met Mike Pompeo recently!
“White papers don’t cover anything of real interest to the locals.”
In the case of the Apple Daily, it takes care of local needs with its surfeit of celebrity gossip pages, the form guide, and of course the generous full-colour ‘nightlife’ section (outright reviews of sex workers written in non-Standard Chinese).
Yes, just the ticket for getting your finger on the pulse of Hong Kong!
You have misrepresented many other things as well. In fact, you typify the standard Hong Kong expat, with his ‘Ooh Gawd mate, it’s all gone to the dogs since China took over!”
You even threw in the stuff about Mainlanders being rude, farmers, etc.
I’m an expat as well, and I’ve lived here since before the handover. What you are saying is wrong.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Jul 22 2019 12:02 utc | 123

gzon @123
Whether Hong Kong is Chinese or not is barely up for debate: culturally, it absolutely is. It has a substantial colonial hangover, though, and, as we see from recent events, politically its people are retarded. I mean that literally. Who else would fly the ex-colonizer’s flag?
Smart people who look backwards are called reactionaries. Stupid people are called retarded.
The real point is this. Hong Kong cannot be independent. Even large and apparently powerful nations such as the UK, Germany and Japan are outright vassal states of the US. Practically every nation on Earth bar China, Russia, Iran and the DPRK are vassal states of the US.
So that is what Hong Kong’s choice would be, if it were to be allowed one. De jure part of China, as now, or nominally independent but de facto ruled by the US.
I am afraid to say that a substantial portion of the population at present would be deluded enough to pick the US. This will pass in time.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Jul 22 2019 12:15 utc | 125

Damnit, folks, it is their job to say things that are wrong!
There is being wrong because one is missing some crucial information, or because one is personally invested in a wrong narrative, but then there is being wrong because one is deliberately trying to change a narrative to a false one for duty and profit.
The goings on in Hong Kong are so obviously a retry of the previous color revolution attempt by the evil empire that it can be used as a reliable litmus test for who is carrying water for the US State Department and Atlantic Council.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 22 2019 12:36 utc | 127

Russ,
1/Only last week the House of Representatives passed a motion calling on the Federal Government to investigate the possibility that Lyme Disease arose after a biowarfare experiment led to the accidental release of infected ticks into the wild.
2/ Re the mural. Someone very kindly posted a link to an article in a San Fran newspaper which reveals the astonishing stupidity of the campaign against the mural which, of course, has nothing, really to do with artistic merit and is all about preserving hypocrisies.
The notion that First Nations descendants ought to be protected from depictions of the genocide practised against their race is American Hypocrisy of the first water. Ditto the idea that Black people should not be made to endure reminders that their ancestors (or those who did not rape slaves) were kidnapped and enslaved.
It is amazing that those insisting that the murals have the merit of depicting historical realities, too often swept under carpets, are elderly white bigots is idiotic.
3/ On the subject of American Culture see 2 above- from those pretending that Epstein’s involvement in prostitution is inexplicable, to those arguing that Venezuela is being attacked and an attempt to install a white dictatorship mounted in order to bring democracy to the country’s poor people, to the ID politicos in San Fran who have been responsible, through the politicians they have supported for racist incarceration policies, decades of bloody war and the lowering of living standards and life expectancy throughout the USA-all is Hypocrisy, lies socially imposed.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 22 2019 12:41 utc | 129

LMAO @ somebody @125!
Be sure to get your McDonald’s Cajun McWrap Meal!

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 22 2019 12:43 utc | 131

@ Posted by: aspnaz | Jul 22 2019 1:51 utc | 90
Your theory fails the empirical test. It’s an abstraction akin to the “Sea Peoples” theory about the end of the Late Bronze Age.
Hong Kong, even after receiving 2 million migrants (which should’ve risen it GDP considerably), begun to stagnate in relation to the Mainland. Since 1997, it’s grown on average 30%-50% the Mainland’s average annual GDP growth rate (it is now growing at a 3% annual average — half the Mainland’s rate).
In 2017, Shenzhen surpassed Hong Kong in terms of “GDP”.
The matter is simple: after the handover (1997), Hongkongers demanded to remain capitalist. The “One country, two systems” deal was a Hongkonger condition to go back to China. At the time, it seemed like a wise decision: China was still a poor country, and there was no signal Deng Xiaoping’s reforms would be able to get out of the “middle income trap”.
They simply bet on the wrong horse: Chinese socialism demonstrated more dynamism than Soviet socialism and achieved an important breakthrough in the period that ranged from its accession to the WTO in 2001 to the aftermath of the 2008 crisis in 2012 (when, e.g. Brazil — another country growing at an accelerated pace from 2005 to 2011 thanks to high commodities’ prices and was used as a counterexample to Chinese socialism’s success — collapsed).
We can attest this “bet on the wrong horse” theory by simply looking at the protesters’ face: most of them very young, probably born after 1997 or too young to remember pre-1997 Hong Kong. They didn’t live during the British despotic and authoritarian rule; they waived the colonial flag and called it freedom. They forgot they are already living the British dream: Hong Kong is still capitalist to the bone — and will be until 2047, as the deal dictates (legal guarantee of deals is a basic principle of freedom, since it’s a basic principle of Rule of Law — so I don’t know why the protesters are complaining about it).
@ Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Jul 22 2019 12:15 utc | 126
This “Hongkonger is a nationality” is farce, a modern fabrication by the Western MSM. Hong Kong was never a nation, and never will be a nation. The city proper doesn’t even have a source of potable water.
And you don’t have to be unicultural to be a country; the same way, having a culture doesn’t entitle you to be a country. Culture doesn’t equal country. This myth, that states country borders are determined by cultural (specially, linguistic) differentiation is a post-WWI fabrication, when the big imperialist powers had to find an excuse to partition the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires. Nobody outside Europe (and the Japanese) believes that.
In fact, China officially is a multi-ethnic nation, as it reiterated in a recent white paper about the Uighur quesiton.

Posted by: vk | Jul 22 2019 13:00 utc | 133

@84 Karlof1
I think Calvin and his role in today’s debt based monetary system is much underestimated. The meteoric rise of the seven provinces and what was to become the Dutch colonial empire was in no small part funded and financed by this debt based system in the latter half of the 16th century. The same applied shortly afterwards to the UK. The book passage I quoted from is from Devaluing the Scholastics: Calvin’s Ethics of Usury.

Posted by: Alexander P | Jul 22 2019 13:09 utc | 135

Posted by: vk | Jul 22 2019 13:00 utc | 137
You are right. Hong Kongers effectively bet on the wrong horse. I mean, you can’t really blame them. Even Deng didn’t realize how quickly China would grow.
Personally I think that Hong Kongers are having a very hard time, psychologically, adjusting to the fact that Mainland Chinese are catching up or surpassing them in terms of wealth. In the 1990s, they felt superior to other Chinese, and were secure in this feeling.
That’s all finished now.
In fact, given that this current colour revolution falls flat and we get back to normal in a couple of months, I predict that Hong Kongers themselves will beg for One Country, Two Systems to be ended early in about fifteen years’ time. By then, it will be clear to anyone who isn’t brain dead that 1C2S is harming the Hong Kong economy by preventing full integration with China, and no one in HK will support it any more.
You’ll see Chinese flags being waved enthusiastically all over the place, probably by a lot of 37-year-olds who were once chucking bricks at the cops and yelling for ‘independence’ in 2019.
People are like that.

Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Jul 22 2019 13:18 utc | 137

somebody @137
America’s hat has always considered itself more culturally sophisticated than America so it shouldn’t be so much a surprise.
I traveled through Florida recently and saw people fishing from retention ponds that had water in them from a recent rain. This leads me to suspect that many Americans don’t quite get the underlying principles involved in fishing, and the problem is getting worse:
Can Millennials Open a Can of Tuna? (EweTube).

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 22 2019 13:24 utc | 139

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 22 2019 13:24 utc | 142
Sure, you can place fish in there – alive.

Grass carp are placed in retention ponds as a biological approach to aquatic weed control. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission oversees the placement and permitting of these type of fish. These carp should not be fished even as catch and release as it is unlawful to harm or remove these types of fish.

It seems to be illegal but there are fish there.
I think you are getting too old.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 22 2019 13:34 utc | 141

Year right I have been saying for years that Epstein is a Mossad operation.

Posted by: col from Oz | Jul 22 2019 13:54 utc | 143

“…real fear or anguish…” in fact only exist in people’s heads. Identity politics poisoned neolibs like to externalize these sensations as being tangible features of the physical (non-metaphysical and non-imaginary) world. They are not.
More topically, the corporate mass media excels at manufacturing “real fear or anguish”. The farce taking place in HK is a perfect example of this, but we can see similar examples elsewhere like Venezuela where well-fed upper middle class Venezuelans are convinced beyond reason that Venezuelans (others that they don’t know) are starving, or like in Ukraine where western Ukrainians were certain in their anguish that eastern Ukrainians were being killed by Russians. Many Americans are still experiencing very “real fear or anguish” that Russians are wrecking their sham “Democracy™”. As real as this may seem to the delusional and hysterical, it is still delusion and hysteria.
The corporate mass media exists solely to manufacture megatrends in society. Whether that is to manufacture mass cravings for a particular color and artificial flavor of carbonated corn syrup water or to manufacture the “real fear or anguish” that we are threatened by scary “others” to get the herd to crowd around symbols of security, the overall purpose is the same: Serve the interests of the big business elites.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 22 2019 14:14 utc | 145

somebody @144
Maybe I am getting old, but the retention ponds I saw people fishing from were along the side of the highway. They dry out after a few days. They are never water-filled long enough for aquatic weeds to become established. I rather doubt the FWC wastes their carp in such temporary digs.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 22 2019 14:22 utc | 147

@127 somebody… regarding the cajun cuisine – cajun is from acadian… it’s an interesting history the acadian people lived in their departure from canada and trip to louisiana many centuries ago.. of course bush 2 wasn’t very helpful when katrina hit the area either.. i think most americans could give a fuck about cajun culture, but it is nice to see you are pushing it as ”american” culture…

Posted by: james | Jul 22 2019 14:55 utc | 149

….Russians believe that the Skripal affair has been much more damaging to HMG than it has to Russia, and have no interest in removing the mystery surrounding it – the more people delve, the more it stinks. Montreal @ 135 on Skripal thread.
I have heard similar, along the lines ‘storm in a tea cup makes the Brits ridiculous’,.. Putin knows what went down (or at least what didn’t and the rough scenario.)
Remember when VP said in public that he encouraged the two Russians identified as ‘culprits’ (tourists in Salisbury..) to come forward – they promtly did so, correctly figuring that this was a protection guarantee for them. They hated, were afraid, to do it, and set stupid conditions with the Head of RT, trying to limit personal image damage. She couldn’t refuse because of VP’s advice.
Putin could publicly wonder why Britain is keeping them incommunicado. What are the Brits hiding? Even a devoted Empire supporter would have to agree that it is most peculiar. Yet Putin claims to have no knowledge on the subject, which is almost certainly untrue. Rob 136 that thread.
The Russians have made, and make, regular requests to have access to the Skripals via the usual channels, int’l etc. (+ by Red Cross if need be.) They are turned down everytime, but the situation is complex, as GB has various ‘excuses’ to hand: -> for protection of Skripals -> Yulia has stated she does not want -> Sergei is a swapped spy and etc. etc. (briefly and not ‘legal’ terms.) Conventional moves from the Russian side.
Putin has strenuously stated that traitors are the vilest scum, in harmony imho with his general principles as presented to the public, so why should he do SFA to help, or stand by, Sergei, who sold his country’s ‘secrets’ for paltry sums and privileges .. (and Yulia, who is most likely? involved somehow? – maybe not .. -) On the other hand, Sergei did his time, has been pardoned, can do as he likes, where is the problem, the rule of law is such .. (alaff at 137 that thread makes that point forcibly..)
> The Russians sneer at this crazed hyped-up scenario of Novichok poisoning, re. some minor incident, rightly so, imho. Which does NOT mean the Skripals weren’t targeted with some ‘substance’, hospitalized, etc. nor that Dawn Sturgess didn’t die, and Charlie survived but has lost his agency and sense, nor that Porton Down was involved somehow.
The Skripals are kept incommunicado because they can’t be allowed to speak out about what happened. Clue: nothing to do with Novichok or anything of world importance.
These local minor stories, situations, which may even be fabricated or ‘engineered’, are cynically upgraded to world-wide-media horrors by pols and the media, to manipulate the plebs with movie-script scenarios they can understand and relate to and take sides on and also at the same time ‘be divided’ endlessly discussing BS about this that the other and what more etc. etc.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 22 2019 15:15 utc | 151

@ Posted by: Herr Ringbone | Jul 22 2019 13:18 utc | 140
The lack of any productive industry is the fundamental economic problem with HK since 1997, and it’s prior prosperity based on using itself as a main trade and investment gateway into the Mainland is a short and one-time affair of the unique geopolitics of that era. HKers who believe that privilege will last forever was naive to say the least, even when back in 97.
Contrast with Singapore that insists on sustaining a sizable manufacturing base to the point it’s considered a top economic priority, albeit one where much of it is being owned by foreign capital.

Posted by: Jonathan | Jul 22 2019 15:23 utc | 153

@ 153 M
If you take China as derived from Qin maybe that is true, Zhongguo and its meaning were a smaller area not including what is now Hongkong I think. You are back at burning books and scholars vs territory ceded in perpetuity to British empire over a hundred and fifty years ago for a fuller argument…but I suppose you just want Hongkong fully chinese the sooner the better, and that be that. There can only be one , and in this case it is you ?

Posted by: gzon | Jul 22 2019 15:43 utc | 155

Sergey Lavrov – a brilliant diplomat… him and putin are like a 1-2 punch… i am knocked out every time…
speaking of kremlin trolls – i found this site some might find interesting..
http://kremlintroll.nl/?p=3184#more-3184

Posted by: james | Jul 22 2019 15:58 utc | 157

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/07/22/601585/Syria-Russia-Idlib-airstrike-Maaret-alNuman-White-Helmets
Russia says it was not involved in the claimed to have happened Idlib airstrike ; its planes were not flying

Posted by: snake | Jul 22 2019 16:06 utc | 159

With regard to MH17 – the shit might hit the fan in the near future, finally.
Josef Resch is a German private detective whose job basically is to find guys who disappear without having payed their debts. He seems to be specialized on big cases, his clients are private or state, and he has a good reputation.
He was approached by a Swiss middleman acting on behalf of an anonymous client. The client tendered 30 Million Dollars as reward for substantial information on MH17. Things like radar data, communication protocols, air traffic reports etc. After a long time, someone offered Resch a big bulk of documents, which, according to Resch, destroy the Western MH17 narrative completely. The documents were good enough for the anonymous client to pay off the whistleblower, not the whole 30 Million, but a big chunk.
Resch has now offered these data to the Dutch MH17 prosecution, at the same time he informed several German media about this step. With one exception – the non-mainstream online site telepolis – it was not reported. Now the German Sputnik department took up the story, with the interesting tidbit that the documents show that MH17 was downed by an Ukrainian fighter jet.
The Dutch haven’t reacted to the offer. But if they want to go on with the court trial, they are forced to acknowledge them.
For more background here’s the telepolis article
(in German)

Posted by: mk | Jul 22 2019 16:24 utc | 161

@165 M
Well you caught me off guard there, I’m technical but it’s something to do with IOW now ? The conversation was about what Hongkongers feel is their right, or where they have been trampled, and your reply is that they should go back to UK because of the British Empire which doesn’t exist.
Are you always this confused?

Posted by: gzon | Jul 22 2019 16:31 utc | 163

Here’s my take on the role Russia plays in the Middle-East,
Russia is a global power in the same league as China and US. At the same time, Russia has rather more ideological and cultural affinity with Israel than Iran. In the middle-east Russia’s competition with the US drives her to an alliance with Iran in short and maybe medium term. But, she won’t hesitate to play nicely with Israel, and SA and UAE as well, mainly to poke the US in the eye. In the long-term though Russia’s position in the middle-east is as much precarious as the US. The main reason behind being the approach Russia cultivate in her relationship with states in the middle-east: an entitlement and “ownership” view not dissimilar to the attitude of the West. Israel, for the affinity I mentioned earlier being the exception.

Posted by: ATH | Jul 22 2019 16:43 utc | 165

Don’t ya just love the smell of police state in the morning?

Pennsylvania school district tells parents to pay their lunch debt, or their kids will go into foster care
The district sent 1,000 letters to collect a total of $22,000, so on average each family owed…$22

Posted by: Trailer Trash | Jul 22 2019 16:56 utc | 167

Regarding the US space program and the lunar missions, check out the links copied below, which include very detailed scientific analysis of the “evidence” of the Apollo moon shots.
After studying the Architects and Engineers website that provides scientific evidence that 9/11 was controlled demolition, and accepting that as the scientific explanation, it is now possible for me to look at this analysis of Apollo (without rejecting out of hand . . . after all, the moonshots for me were a huge deal when I was in high school!) and consider that this too was another lie provided to us by the national security state.
If the deep state can blow up the two largest buildings in New York, killing thousands, stealing hundreds of billions, destroying evidence, launch endless war on the basis of that false flag, and destroy the Constitution at the same time, then certainly is is possible that (after killing a US president) they could have faked the moon shots as part of the Cold War.
http://www.aulis.com/moonbase2015.htm safe entry of astronauts impossible using published parameters of descent of landing capsule into atmosphere (did not use skip landing technique developed much later) plus US lunar lander is missing (The descent-stage top deck of the LM had a continuous, firm upper surface with no routes through which the hot gases could escape when the ascent engine was fired.)
http://www.aulis.com/apollo17_ascent.htm For the rocket with the same propulsion as Apollo, its Reactive Control System (RCS) has to be much quicker than that of Apollo, and the resulting Orbit Insertion trajectory cannot be performed with Apollo’s guidance logic.
http://www.aulis.com/scientific_analysis.htm Very detailed analysis of hundreds of photos of astronauts on moon showing all types of alterations were made to them.
http://www.aulis.com/photostudy.htm Detailed photostudy of an Apollo 15 image shows a host of fabrications
http://www.aulis.com/illusion.htm Detailed summary of discrepancies by Soviet/Russian scientist who graduated from the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology majoring in Aerodynamics (bio at end)

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 22 2019 17:32 utc | 169

MK @ 168
Many people believe that MH17 was shot down by an Ukrainian fighter and that all the stories about BUK missiles are no more than red herrings. This is certainly my fairly well informed belief.

Posted by: Montreal | Jul 22 2019 17:38 utc | 171

@ m 172
You are right I have no argument, not a personal one anyway. The argument is between Hongkongers and China, and possibly Hongkongers and UK, and so China and UK, and by extention it seems US also.
Reuters
China said in 2017 the Sino-British Joint Declaration was a historical document with no practical significance, and has regularly urged Britain not to interfere in Hong Kong affairs as protests have mounted.
Sino British joint declaration 1984
“The whole makes up a formal international agreement, legally binding in all its parts. An international agreement of this kind is the highest form of commitment between two sovereign states.”
So you understand that my country (which I cannot now return to incidentally) is responsible to Hongkongers for the deal it made with China, and so the result or enforcement of that agreement. You will find the British in general take their contract seriously, it is called honour. The whole circumstance or if there should even have beem contract or if it is odious etc. can be argued, but not dismissed single handedly – that will bring difficulty to China, and that is not fair on Hongkongers. I say that as outsider knowing the nature of my country, and so as someone who feels responsible in some way for the current circumstance of Hongkongers, which is why I say they should be listened to first, preferably within the terms of the agreement China signed. You won’t deny them that identity, whatever you want to label it as, without being wrong to yourself.

Posted by: gzon | Jul 22 2019 17:50 utc | 173

Thanks to the poster who shared the street art links.
FTR – I did not mean to draw a direct comparison between a New Deal era high school mural and a World Heritage site, rather was making a comparison between “self appointed and self righteous” defacers.
Similarly, Bowling Green State University recently removed the name of the great actress and film pioneer Lillian Gish from its film theater because she appeared in Griffith’s “Birth of a Nation” 104 years ago. The mania for removal/erasure/ “fresh starts” does not reflect a healthy or confident cultural order.

Posted by: jayc | Jul 22 2019 18:00 utc | 175

@ Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Jul 22 2019 16:18 utc | 167
Except for the fact Venezuela is a sovereign nation with a seat at the UN, while Hong Kong is a city in China.
Besides, just because two positions have the same linguistic power it doesn’t mean both are equally valid: “The Earth is flat” and “The Earth is round” are, linguistically, equally weighted opinions — but only one of them is true.
China’s offering Hong Kong prosperity. The USA is offering Venezuela slavery and misery. Completely different cases that, on the surface, are very much alike — but reality doesn’t have the obligation to be obvious to human observation: that’s why we invented science.

Posted by: vk | Jul 22 2019 18:17 utc | 177

“Hong Kong is suffering from a surfeit of license to fail on the British model “ (Grieved, 106)
“The lack of any productive industry is the fundamental economic problem with HK since 1997 “(Jonathan 157)
“Manufacturing is the engine that will drive the new Chinese economy. Since the beginning of industrial civilization in the Middle of the 18th century, it has been proven repeatedly by the rise and fall of world powers that without strong manufacturing, there is no national prosperity.” China 2025 Policy document

Posted by: cirsium | Jul 22 2019 18:31 utc | 179

Alexander P @138–
Thanks for your reply and answer! I found the PDF essay online. For quite awhile, I’ve wanted to examine closer the 1400-1700 period of European history, and our exchange provided a nice nudge for me to do so. Thanks!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 22 2019 18:47 utc | 181

More escalation by the west at Hormuz:
UK to launch European security mission over Iran row
https://www.dw.com/en/uk-to-launch-european-security-mission-over-iran-row/a-49701466

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 22 2019 19:18 utc | 183

@dh-mtl #154
No, read the Helmer article more carefully.
There is no mention about conspiracy in the shootdown. What is talked about is the investigation, or lack thereof, in pointing the finger at Russia.
Even a cursory review of the events and parties shows that the participation of Ukraine in the investigation is ridiculous. That evidence was accepted, unequivocably, from the SBU is equally ridiculous.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 22 2019 20:00 utc | 185

Sometimes the level of discourse and “arguments” here are abysmally low. I’ve kept silent on this subject but now it’s getting even worse. This will be wasted on the stupid anyway but at least I get it out.
I might as well since there’s not much actual news recently (except Iran but even that died off, once again: “Thank you Iran!”).
Some people seem to believe that China or for that matter Russia are unable to make serious mistakes, this attitude does both China and Russia serious disfavors and sets them up to the fate of the US.
It is impossible to be a friend if one is blindly and self-harmingly subservient. Likewise it is impossible to have friends if all one accepts is such behavior (ref.: the US). It is for that matter impossible to talk with anyone with such attitudes.
It is fun and absurd to watch people claiming to be or to have been gweilos arguing both for/against gweilos being good or bad (or even HKer) as well as for/against the existence of a HK identity and culture. Absurdities on parade for anyone remotely familiar with HK and/or other Chinese societies and cultures. No, they’re not actually “all the same” LOL. Despite claiming to be gweilos they manage to understand HK even less than mainlanders.
Quite a feat! And if anyone disagrees they’re claimed to be trolls just as if someone said something on a MSM site against the official “truths”. The validity of such gatekeeping is zero.
Both the UK and China are wrong, the HK government used to be wrong but scuttled the bill but are still wrong about what the HK protesters are really protesting about: a lack of actual representation in the form of addressing all the genuine pressing issues and regaining a stable respectful environment conducive to the welfare of HK.
China needs to understand that they agreed to be the guarantors of that and live up to it and then the actual process of eventual unification can begin. If they continue not to do that then HK will forever not become China no matter how many people they import and no matter how stupid the “old” HKers behave against the new.
I want China to succeed and despite being a non- or anti-communist and against ideology I want the Chinese Communist Party and their current structure to continue. An upheaval of and in China will doom the world and is among the worst things imaginable.
As for any violence the little there has been is far less than in France and a big meh.
I will avoid commenting on various triads and the very interesting less-known attributes of some of them for now (and maybe forever), I want to enable people to reveal their knowledge or ignorance.
Isn’t it funny that I am not a gweilo and I have never been in HK yet I manage to know more about HK etc. than those who claim to be? That’s why the “debate” is amusing to me: some people are either incredibly pampered and isolated (a few gweilos were but most were not to such a degree as exhibited, perhaps some people here are so steeped in old corruption and previous sins as to pretend otherwise?) or simply liars or fantasists shoehorning the real world into their ideologies.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jul 22 2019 20:10 utc | 187

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/
2019/07/22/gay-owned-club-to-host-35000-ticketed-fundraiser-for-mike-pence/
Mike Pence is not a closeted homosexual.

Posted by: Kristan hinton | Jul 22 2019 20:35 utc | 189

I keep reading where the US Congressional Squad is drawing Trump’s ire.
I wonder if this is more kabuki for the masses or if the Squad has the ovaries to cut to the core problem with empire owned US government, global private finance.
Is there ever going to be some US potential leadership that brings the reason for WWIII out of the closet or do we just get more Obama Hopey/Changey?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 22 2019 20:47 utc | 191

Btw since someone asked both Hong Kong and Singapore are first and foremost harbor cities (due to great natural harbors coupled with geographic location) and everything derived from that.
Producing things is great and crucial but at scale (surplus and wealth) it necessitates logistics which enables/requires trade which enables/requires finance and none of it amounts to much unless people can make it work and work well and those who are really good at making it work become crucial. This last part of that chain is what politicians and ideologues (and especially on the “left” side ie. socialism and communism but often anyone else too) can be extremely good at not understanding.
Add an industrious approach (which always comes twinned with crime at some point although not always the same amount) to that and you have Hong Kong, Singapore, and port cities in general.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jul 22 2019 21:41 utc | 193

@152 Zanon “Syria deal requires Iranian pullback from Iraq and Lebanon, U.S. and Israel tell Russia”
Followed by a link that is heavy with US/Israel demands *to* Russia, and vanishingly light on any statement of agreement *by* Russia to those demands.
…”U.S. and Israel tell Russia”…
…”the U.S. and Israel told Russia”…
…”Bolton and Ben-Shabbat told Patrushev”…
…”They said”…
…”The U.S. and Israel told Russia”…
…”Bolton made it clear to Patrushev”…
And what did the Russians say to all those marching-orders?
…”The Russians gave the Iranians public backing during and after the summit.”…
…”Last week, Vladimir Putin sent his Syria envoy, Alexander Lavrentiev, to Tehran to reassure the Iranians and brief Iranian national security adviser Ali Shamkhani on the results of the summit.”…
Hmmm. So not so much with the agreement, then?
Oh, yeah, and this last bit of hilarity:
…”However, Israeli and U.S. officials say the Iranians are very concerned that Israel, the U.S. and Russia could strike a deal on Syria at their expense.”…
There’s a real whiff of the Mandy Rice-Davies about that last sentence.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Jul 22 2019 22:47 utc | 195

More about what to come on Russia/Iran relations?
A Russian-American Deal Can Bring Stability to Syria, Weaken Iran
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/22/a-russian-american-deal-can-bring-stability-to-syria-weaken-iran-a66515

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 22 2019 23:19 utc | 197

It appears the Outlaw US Empire has finally had the tables turned on it and one of its colonies is undergoing a genuine, non-CIA backed Color Revolution in Puerto Rico. Gabbard has followed the events there and joined the protesters.
RT provides the underlying motivation atop neoliberal raping of the populous before and after Hurricane Maria:
“The leader of the US territory has been embroiled in controversy following a leak of hundreds of communications in which he made a series of offensive remarks. The leaks amount to almost 900 pages of messages sent to current and former aides and officials. They contain sexist, homophobic and often profanity-laced comments as well as crude and flippant remarks about subjects like death following Hurricane Maria.”
More info and links here, particularly the ones to PROMESA and Naomi Klein’s articles at its end.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 22 2019 23:27 utc | 199