@ AC 197
citizens aren’t responsible for their chosen government’s atrocities…
The military has a saying “with authority comes responsibility” which means that a colonel, say, with authority over a unit or base is responsible for what happens in that unit or on that base.
The opposite is also true. If the citizens don’t have any authority to affect affairs, for example there is never a referendum taken on what they want, then they can’t be responsible for what transpires. What US citizen is ever able to provide input to his/her representative in a structured way on important matters: health care, overseas military bases & adventures, taxation, etc.? . .None. It could all be done using modern communication methods but it isn’t.
That lack is not democratic, so calling the US a democracy is feeding the lie. It isn’t. And if it isn’t, if citizens have no authority, then they have no responsibility.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 5 2019 18:57 utc | 203

@O #80
The same reason why “natural” and “organic” food advocates ignore the 12,000 or so years in which everything we eat has been genetically engineered – just not with recombinant DNA techniques.
As an example – which perhaps you already know, but I did not until a few years ago:
cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli and brussels sprouts are extremely closely related. Brussel sprouts and cabbage are actually the same species, even. These all share as few as 3 common ancestors.
Rutabagas, in turn, are a 17th century Scandinavian crossbreed of cabbages and turnips – so it is literally an “artificial” species.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 5 2019 19:17 utc | 205

@Bemildred #84
I can’t say that I agree. It is absolutely possible that Merkel and Macron allowed this to go forward – particularly Macron as he is an Atlanticist finger puppet, the French Obama.
On the other hand, the UK pretending to represent EU opinion on behalf of US interests would not be received well at all. Note that there were no Spanish, German, French or other actual EU (i.e. not EU Exit-proximate) forces involved.
Personally, given that the EU has only reluctantly agreed to Iran sanctions and has not been enthusiastically supported US withdrawal from JCPOA or ongoing tensions in the Persian Gulf – I doubt that the EU leadership would be happy with headlines like “EU seizes Syrian/Iranian sanctions busting tanker”.
And as I noted, Spain definitely isn’t happy either. Gibraltar as owned by the UK is a very touchy subject for Spain, and the seizure of international shipping in Spanish waters by Brits is a not a recipe for happy UK/Spain relations – with or without Brexit.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 5 2019 19:22 utc | 207

donkeytale @201
Yes, RealClear Investigations published an informative article by Aaron Maté. And The Intercept, founded by neoliberal color revolution backer Pierre Omidyar, publishes informative articles by the moderately anti-establishment Glenn Greenwald. These are not really corporate mass media organizations and are more like personal hobbies for some oligarchs, but controlled opposition media needs to publish somewhat legit stuff on occasion in order to maintain the appearance of opposition, and outfits that profess to air “all sides” must likewise occasionally publish stuff like what Aaron Maté writes.
That said, I never mentioned mainstream media in the first place. I spoke of corporate mass media. Being “middle of the road” does not confer legitimacy. In the case of RCP it just means that they publish lots of imperialist propaganda tailored for varying demographics, and they occasionally let slip things like the Aaron Maté piece.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 5 2019 19:31 utc | 209

@O #85
Economics as dogma and religion is the outcome. The reason for this outcome is very much deliberate.
Once again, Dr. Michael Hudson has showed that economics in the era of John Stuart Mills, David Ricardo, Karl Marx, Adam Smith etc was progressive – the leading practitioners were forging the field in order to understand and show how aristocratic ownership of assets – primarily land – was holding back economic development. Not just for the lower classes, but by extension for the entire society.
This explosion in thought – including the concepts of rentiers and unearned income – led to global governmental movements of reform for self-interest sake (i.e. not to get left behind and be too poor to defend selves or seize more resources).
The roots of modern neoliberalism, efficient market theory, U of Chicago nonsense is directly traceable to John Bates Clark – who propounded that there is no such thing as unearned income, with a significant helping by von Mises and Hayek – who are the monopolist’s best friends (no or low government = no check on monopolists).

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 5 2019 19:41 utc | 211

Joe Biden goes full Republican and pushes himself further away from attaining D-Party nomination. The sooner Biden drops-out the better for everyone except the Current Oligarchy.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 5 2019 19:44 utc | 213

@202 Yes but people know, or should know, where their candidate stands on things like health care, overseas military bases & adventures, taxation, etc. so they take on some responsibility when they vote.

Posted by: dh | Jul 5 2019 19:49 utc | 215

donkeytale @195 sez: “Here’s the problem with your definition….it becomes whatever you want it to mean.”
No, it means exactly what it appears to mean. Trump and Escobar are individuals who offer personal commentary. The Washington Bezos Post is an organization employing hundreds of people to authenticate what they publish and verify that it conforms to a particular narrative. If it were not known that they are in the business of publishing #FakeNews then that narrative should be afforded more authority. That is the whole ideal behind professional journalism. Large professional journalistic organizations should not be regularly in the habit of being put to shame by individual bloggers working out of their kitchens.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 5 2019 19:57 utc | 217

For those of you who are interested in the EU sanctions list…
It’s not exactly behind a paywall, and by that I mean that you don’t have to pay any money at all for access. But you’d have to go through a tiresome and pointless registration process to get the list. Typical EU style, complicated and convoluted for no apparent reason.
Anyway, feel free to use my token to get it, just copy the following link into your browser and you’ll get it as a pdf:
https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/europeaid/fsd/fsf/public/files//pdfFullSanctionsList/content?token=n002ey0x
(They also offer CSV and XML formats – if you want those just send me an e-mail, it’s a different link!)
This latest version of the list was released just today. I took the opportunity and searched it for the Baniyas (or Banyas/Banias) Refinery, the supposed destination of the Iranian tanker captured yesterday. Baniyas is in fact on the list, and has been since 2014. They cite EU Council Regulation 792/2014 as the “legal basis”. Not a project of the EU Parliament or the EU Commission, but the Council. Just like a royal decree back in the olden times, no say for anybody. Their reason for sanctioning Baniyas Refinery is as meager as you’d have to expect:

“Subsidiary of the General Corporation for Refining and Distribution of Petroleum Products (GCRDPP), a section of the Ministry of Petroleum and Mineral Resources. As such it provides financial support to the Syrian regime.”

Seriously, this is how it’s done! Two incomplete sentences and the energy supply of a whole country is put in jeopardy. No biggy.

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Jul 5 2019 20:16 utc | 219

@Don Bacon
I get that Americans are brainwashed. I realize that they are the most thoroughly propagandized and brainwashed people on the entire planet. Their minds are so heavily laundered that they are frayed and ragged like an old pair of jeans by the time most Americans hit middle school. The technology employed to turn Americans into meat robots is beyond anything humanity has ever dealt with before.
Here’s the problem: If Americans really are helpless in the face of this assault on their volition, then they are not really human anymore, are they? They actually are just meat robots following a program engraved in their minds from infancy. That’s basically what you have to believe if you want to absolve the American people of responsibility for the crimes their empire commits in their names. Is that so much better than suggesting that they might have the ability to do the right thing but just haven’t worked themselves up to it yet?

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 5 2019 20:30 utc | 221

@ WG 220
You must be referring to someone else. I never said Americans are brainwashed. I referred to authority and responsibility in my 202.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 5 2019 20:36 utc | 223

In Iran the government has little choice but to counter-attack the UK. The hardliners demand it, just as they would in the US if a US ship were seized somewhere. Except the US lacks imagination and would revert to bombs, whereas I expect Iran to do something a bit more clever.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 5 2019 20:46 utc | 225

re: Suez Canal
A ship the size of the Grace 1, known as a Very Large Crude Carrier, or VLCC, can’t pass through the canal fully loaded. VLCCs have the option of transiting the canal by discharging half their cargo, sending the oil through the Sumed Pipeline, and pick it up again in the Mediterranean, but the pipeline’s owners have refused to accept Iranian crude since 2012.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 5 2019 20:56 utc | 227

donkeytale @158 …
… shows us how the “Putin is a Zionist!” propaganda narrative is constructed.
The Haaretz article he links to is from September 2018 and concerns an nonevent that occurred 6 months before: the Russia chief Rabbi’s joining a large Russian delegation to Iran.
You see, the rabbi wasn’t one of a few people accompanying Putin, he was:

> one part of a large delegation‘
> which was “headed by the chairman of Russia’s State Duma”; and
> the rabbi’s only role was to visit Jewish communities; plus,
> the reporting is based on anonymous sources.

Wasn’t it logical for Putin to use his influence in an attempt to reduce tension between Israel and Iran? The rabbi’s participation otherwise had no bearing on the Russian-Iranian talks.
Furthermore, the only sources I find online that were interested in covering this nonevent are Jewish/Israeli-linked. Because hasbara will use any info they can to tout that “Putin is a Zionist!”.
Thanks donkey for showing us how it’s done.
<> <> <> <> <> <> <>
Other sources consulted:
ynetnews.com
Times of Israel

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 5 2019 21:12 utc | 229

@ c1ue | Jul 5 2019 19:41 utc | 210
As you indicated, historical political economics has a long and well documented trace of development through the writings of Adam Smith, Malthus, Ricardo, James and John Stewart Mill, Jevons, Marshall and John Maynard Keynes that produced MMT analysis as result of Keynesian analytic work. Appearing, sui generis, without president at the Chicago School of Economic Phrenology, built on the pseudo-economic opinions of Mises, Hayek, Milton Friedman Leo Strauss under the sponsorship of Dr David Rockefeller (economics mid 1930’s) to produce the neoliberal economic catechism taught universally as MBA econ 101. There Is No Alternative, anymore but the vocabulary still rules all economic thought. Not bad for something that did not exist during World War II.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jul 5 2019 21:20 utc | 231

@ WG 225
why does the imperial establishment put so much effort into building public buy-in for their wars?
It’s not much effort when there are so many people profiting from wars.
It’s like what the pediatrician said when someone asked him how he liked his job:
“It’s great, I’ve got so many guys working for me!”
So the State Dept puts out an email every so often with the buzz words, like “increasing Iran tensions,” to the six corporations responsible for ninety percent of the media, and with a little help from the profiteers in government, in corporations and in the military it’s easy sailing. As Bush said, we’ll send the troops to Iraq and you go shopping at the mall.
Any journalist that doesn’t toe the line becomes an ex-journalist.
For more info check out Norman Solomon’s book “War Made Easy, How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us To Death”

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 5 2019 21:33 utc | 233

Jen @231: Good points. I read somewhere that the true destination was not Syria, which is already backed up at that refinery, because its pipelines there were sabotaged and there is a tanker waiting. I like Beeley’s idea that its Hunt waving his “big dick” around, a chump if I ever saw one. And Boris said today it’s very important to support JCPOA, but then goes on about Iran’s need to comply, even as they sit on their pirated oil. So I take it the UK/France/Germany are all in with US’ on this, which beggars description, “confused” doesn’t cover it. Like Trudeau’s self-sabotage over China. But maybe that’s the point. They want Iran to strike back, justify all their accusations.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 5 2019 21:53 utc | 235

The conversation about trolls was interesting.
Trolls at MoA and elsewhere would like you to believe their:

Not propaganda! propaganda
They pretend that what they say is not propaganda – it’s just another point of view – and alt-media readers are hypocrites if we don’t let them express it freely; despite the fact that:

> their views are readily available in Mainstream Media (MSM), and
> troll reasoning often relies on cognitive biases and rhetorical tricks to make those mainstream views appear plausible/palatable.

If challenged, they will often retreat to legalisms like demanding a definition of trolling or attack the blog itself as ‘group think’.
Many will pretend to be socialists (in particular) so readers will let down their guard. But it soon becomes clear that their chief interest is in guiding the conversation toward support for establishment objectives like distrust/hate for leaders of countries/movements that challenge establishment interests.
Free speech! propaganda
Trolls are the loudest voices defending “free speech” on alt-media but they rarely denounce MSM and/or establishment restrictions on free speech or other MSM manipulations. Stark example: they never show any concern for the free speech rights of BDS.
When trolls are denounced for knowingly pushing propaganda narratives and disinformation they will often play the victim to recruit others to support their “free speech”. If that results in a destroyed threat, they don’t care: they know most readers will avoid the ‘mess’ so they can start over a few days later.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 5 2019 22:22 utc | 237

@235 ‘But shockingly he doesn’t see anything wrong with that.”
I think you have misunderstood DB. The way I read it he is saying the US has no business in Afghanistan.

Posted by: dh | Jul 5 2019 22:31 utc | 239

@AB 235
(I’m not American, I don’t vote)
When people vote they lend credence to the system.
You know many governments are formed with only a minority of the eligible voter base.
If you vote you don’t ever know what anyone will do (in your name) or if voting for them will make any difference.
If you don’t pay taxes you get jailed, there is acquiescence for you.
So you are just not going to say that American citizens are responsible as a whole, because you would be wrong to round them into a single camp like that. It is known that governments and bureaucracies around the world are less and less answerable. Hitting on “the population as a whole” via people like Don Bacon who are open enough to discuss, is not going to help resolve this reality. But you might listen to him, because what he IS doing is explaining to people how the system is. He is telling you the honest sentiments of many people also – they don’t want to know. Why? Because they probably rejected the idea of a war, they did not want to know about it (It’s a phrase in English meaning definitely NO).
You can’t expect other people to go and fight a government for you, even if it is “theirs”, and by blaming them for that government you won’t get their sympathies, at all.

Posted by: gzon | Jul 5 2019 22:36 utc | 241

dh @238 sez: “I think you have misunderstood DB. The way I read it he is saying the US has no business in Afghanistan.
Unfortunately it is you who have misunderstood. Don Bacon is claiming that Americans are not responsible for what America has done to Afghanistan. Moreover, he is claiming that Americans have the right to not concerned themselves with what America has done and is doing in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
That is a problematic perspective.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 5 2019 23:25 utc | 243

re the debate between William Gruff and Don Bacon. I submit that gruff wins with his post at 225.
Bacon might like to delude himself that his individual efforts make no difference, but it only lets him off the hook if every other US citizen tales the same view. If they act together to oppose their government in sufficient numbers then they can effectively become the government and impose their will. Isn’t THAT what the American Revolution was all about?
In the final analysis it comes down to a question of individual morality, and the sum of a nations individual moralities make up the national character.

Posted by: eagle eye | Jul 6 2019 0:08 utc | 245

dh @243
I was thinking more about his post @160: “What pushes me over the edge is not labeling me but labeling the American people as stupid and responsible for US mistakes, which is why I quit this barroom for a while.”
The fact that he considers murdering millions of people an “Oops! My bad!” mistake raised my eyebrows a bit. As if napalming Laos and Cambodia was some sort of accident.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 6 2019 0:22 utc | 247

CarlD @246
Not bad, but I would add that the lion is mangy and crippled and has a worm in its skull (Israel?) eating its brains out. Dangerous to be certain, but functioning on borrowed time.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 6 2019 0:34 utc | 249

@gzon 240

When people vote they lend credence to the system.

I know that argument since I was 17 or something. It’s wrong, at least in this context. What I say is very very simple:
The citizens could vote for the good people (Nader etc.) who might have at least a chance to prevent some (many) atrocities (before getting murdered), but they constantly let the evil ones to take control either by voting for them or not “bothering” to vote for the good ones.

You know many governments are formed with only a minority of the eligible voter base.

That’s what I say people do not bother to vote for the good people.

If you vote you don’t ever know what anyone will do (in your name) or if voting for them will make any difference.

Wrong. We know what someone like Nader would do.

So you are just not going to say that American citizens are responsible as a whole…

I haven’t (I’m not idiot), you’ve just missed my first post, not all the people, but many of them.

But you might listen to him, because what he IS doing is explaining to people how the system is. He is telling you the honest sentiments of many people also – they don’t want to know.

He doesn’t explain anything new, he’s actually confirming what we say. Yes, they don’t want to know and that’s why we blame those people, but he doesn’t. He’s one of them, shockingly.

You can’t expect other people to go and fight a government for you, even if it is “theirs”, and by blaming them for that government you won’t get their sympathies, at all.

Not true. I haven’t expected other people to go and fight a goverment for me. I expect them to vote for the good people, that’s all. And that’s not for me, for those millions who have been slaughtered and suffering (including US citizents). And I certainly haven’t asked for and don’t need anyone’s sympathies. What an absurdity.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 6 2019 0:44 utc | 251

@AB 249
The difference is you believe a system can be changed, where I see it being upheld in close to existing form. There is no argument, it is individual perspective. I don’t hold it against anyone for trying to improve a system , the opposite . Personally I prefer to reduce it, which is also why I live very much outside of it. You see, when people lose faith in humanity, it runs very deep, much deeper than a vote, and they just turn away to where life makes sense, and deal with the rest from the sidelines.
“And I certainly haven’t asked for and don’t need anyone’s sympathies. What an absurdity.”
You are asking for sympathy of vote, something I don’t do.

Posted by: gzon | Jul 6 2019 1:30 utc | 253

@gzon 251

The difference is you believe a system can be changed, where I see it being upheld in close to existing form. There is no argument, it is individual perspective. I don’t hold it against anyone for trying to improve a system , the opposite . Personally I prefer to reduce it, which is also why I live very much outside of it. You see, when people lose faith in humanity, it runs very deep, much deeper than a vote, and they just turn away to where life makes sense, and deal with the rest from the sidelines.

I completely sympathize with you here. I too (try to) live very much outside of it. I’m probably more radical than you. You’ve only lost faith in humanity! What about animals? The whole life is a cycle of suffering. Yet these are beside the point in this discussion.
Evil will always win, as good cannot organise; when it can, it transforms into evil. Yet again the least we can do is to support the good, at least to help reduce suffering as much as we can.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 6 2019 1:48 utc | 255

So riddle me this: Drone shot down over Iran, throwing up US plans for a big July 4th war rally, Russia has a submarine accident, and now there is this social media craze about some water bottle challenge. I am seeing too much into this or is it another Wag the Dog episode like the ALS water bucket challenge after MH17?

Posted by: Lozion | Jul 6 2019 2:22 utc | 257

I am LOVING the story about the Brits hijacking an Iranian oil tanker off the coast of Gibraltar. They’re certainly no strangers to theft, piracy and self-deception. This incident neatly encapsulates what it means to be British. The Monty Python crew nailed it in the late 1960s in their Upper Class Twit sketch. And David Bowie fine-tuned it when he sang “We could be heroes, just for one day.”
That’s the essence of the British Soul. Even the Cockney Workin’ Class harbour delusions of grandeur and rarely decline an invitation from the Upper Class Twits to participate in some creative OverLord-ism in exchange for table scraps.
Unfortunately, contradictions between the (Terribly) British Class System, the Upstairs-Downstairs syndrome, and Delusions of Grandeur can combine, awkwardly, to create much unintended Mirth & Merriment for casual observers. The tanker hijack provides a window into these contradictions…
On one hand we have the Brits wishing to re-invigorate their Masters Of The Universe myth, but then choosing to do so by showing the AmeriKKKans what obsequiously good little lap-dogs they can be.
They seem to have ‘forgotten’ that the Persians had been building roads and palaces for a thousand years when Brits were still living in caves and huts.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 6 2019 3:56 utc | 259

@AB 253
I actually wrote a too long reply, but will just post a short one.
We do what we can which is good and we learn, there is always a balance to be found, and that is where meaning appears.

Posted by: gzon | Jul 6 2019 4:32 utc | 261

@Don Bacon 258

People who think that merely voting for “good” people haven’t been paying attention, and also they don’t understand that democracy, if it ever existed, would involve more than voting for one clown or another every four years.

I haven’t advocated “voting for one clown or another”, I was talking about someone like Nader whom you’ve worked for.
I haven’t advocated doing nothing besides voting every four years, though you yourself previously have mentioned its futility.

There’s a lack of wisdom.

Not only that, unfortunately.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 6 2019 5:05 utc | 263

@ c1ue | Jul 6 2019 0:39 utc | 248
John Bates Clark is an unfamiliar name among the traditional main line of political economic philosophy; Robert L. Heilbroner’s The Worldly Philosophers, The Lives, Times and Ideas of the Great Economic Thinkers mentions a Californian (IIRC), a Henry George who at turn of century made some economic suggestions (I forget exactly what now) but is not included in any other list of the prime economists that I am aware of, certainly no European pantheon of greats. I am sure Mises, Hayek, et al had in their maturation of thought some un-noted precursor such as your J.B. Clark.
Political economics from the beginning addressed the misapprehension of economic process known as Mercantilism and its assumptions, one being wealth consisted in the accumulation of specie ( a small step, easy to do when silver and gold were the substantial form of currency). Mercantilism caused the rupture of relations between some of the North American colonies and Parliament, Poor George III was only an easy target rather that Parliamentary Parties responsible.
The economic history of the North American rebel colonies has involved extracting itself from English mercantilism and creating credit based financing to develop their economic resources, always contending with mercantilist creditors demanding hard, sound currency. Little has changed, today gold-buggery holds mercantilist thought, notice how the debt fear terrorist mount their attack on credit and fiat currency in the same manner as their mercantilist ancestors. New day, same ol’ crap.
Note how easy it is to paste a label on something that fails to inform on the contents, a shorthand that obscures information. Mercantilism does not begin to inform of its requirements and assumptions; little has changed today such as the use of progressive or progressivism, terms that should be used in a political context and studiously avoided in economic contexts as it has no actual economic meaning but rather serves to obscure and deceive the unschooled (as most are).
Much has been produced here about the evils of private banking (now devolved into private financing bugaboos). First observation would be: ‘Just how can effective legislation be written to provide for due diligence?’ – the answer is such legislation cannot be written, due diligence is completely served by the self interest of private banking. Private banking (last seen disappearing during the 1950’s) no longer exists outside of a few holdouts mostly found in middle-America flyover country outside of large population centres. Private banking provided private financing for main street America, the most sophisticated application of extending credit for economic production and services ever developed. It is now dead, killed by political ignorance of economics. But then: ‘Those who cannot be bothered to know economics, are destined to feel the lash of slavery until they do’ .

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jul 6 2019 9:34 utc | 265

And in Toronto, Banderites and the ‘rules-based-international-order’ crowd gathered for the ‘Ukraine Reform Conference 2019’, to drum up investment, hear President Ze, and bash Russia…
Canada and Ukraine Strenthen Cooperation at the Ukraine Reform Conference 2019
https://youtu.be/2GAOBkhG4ew
FM Chrystia Freeland, the Nazi’s grand-daughter, PM Justin Trudeau and Pres V Zelensky of Ukraine.
Canada To Block New Russian Passport Holders From Eastern Ukraine, Says Freeland
https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2019/07/02/canada-to-block-new-russian-passport-holders-from-eastern-ukraine-says-freeland/

Posted by: John Gilberts | Jul 6 2019 10:29 utc | 267

@ FTB 265
Private banking . . . no longer exists
It looks like private home ownership may also be a thing of the past. Houses are being bought up by syndicates, who then rent them out.
from the web
A real estate syndication is when income property investors come together to finance a property investment. There can be a few real estate investors involved or even hundreds. Not only do they pool together their financial resources for the real estate investment, but property investors can share any other real estate investing resources at their disposal.
This allows income property investors to make a profit and further their real estate careers as well as allowing them to get involved in real estate investments of a much larger scale than they could on their own.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 6 2019 13:34 utc | 269

And you don’t need a PhD in economics to understand that the engine of capitalism is cheap labor. O at 63.
Yes.
What is missing in considerations of this topic (not particularly O’s post, but in general) is:
More important is the extraction of ressources, let’s say fossil fuels (not only, see e.g. rare metals) in a relentless fashion, to ‘fuel’ the machine. Ex. slavery in the US was killed off by the tractor, short version.
Longer story, the ‘feudal’ type model, w. slaves, of cotton (and other) production could not compete with ‘industrial’ innovations.
One can argue that extraction is not related to any type of ‘regime,’ see for ex. the Soviets who became good at it and thus made fantastic advances in a supposedly ‘communist’ frame (Hobsbawn for ex.) But that argument holds for slaves as well – they may be literally slaves, or indentured labor, or exploited and housed on site factory workers, fireable at will (partly replaced slavery in the US, as expanding industries needed the ‘flexibility’), or modern day slaves, many guises, ex. prison labor, today’s sex slaves, gig workers with 3 jobs and no home, women who work all their lives with no say, etc.
This brings up the questionable contrasts between capitalism and socialism or ‘communism’ and between ‘democracies’ and ‘authoritarian regimes’ (which last was critiqued above, by O amongst others to a poster who wrote of W Democracies and Authoritarian Regimes elsewhere..) —-The labels are used to manipulate ppl, gather followers, etc., secular imposed cultish frames that obfuscate.
For ex. the USA is a very ‘redistributive’ country (thus, perhaps, “socialist”) which is not admitted. It comes about because forms of rapacious and lawless (or supported by law) ‘capitalism’ create havoc that may lead to revolution / uprising. Pay offs have to be made.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 6 2019 15:14 utc | 271

@ Bemildred | Jul 6 2019 12:54 utc | 268
@ Don Bacon | Jul 6 2019 13:34 utc | 269
Acknowledging replies.
Bemildred – Yes, there were several books by Henry George who convinced quite a following amongst the early 20th century populists and helped guide their ascent to prominence and political authority. However, the point being taken was that his writings were more toward the political side of political economics and although economics was the subject, it was ‘applied economics’ and not writing establishing economic principle as in the case of Adam Smith, et al. I think I recall J.M. Keynes maybe using the term ‘neo-classical’ maybe once in his collected works to describe the later political economists of that century as being along and further developing the lines established by the pioneers of economic thought. Also just the point I attempted with Clark, the term neoliberal (wikipedia entry) was an appellation applied from a much later time. Again, ‘applied economics’ vs. principle is in order.
Don Bacon – Agreed, something new under the sun – rent extraction from former social capital owners, a.k.a. revenue stream creation. Home ownership is/was the capitalisation of providing the economic good – shelter. That capital in many cases was used as an ATM credit source; debt came on the other side of the credit coin given but was ignored. Such pipers have ways of getting paid. Think the final line in #265 may be a good (but sad) summary.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jul 6 2019 16:38 utc | 273

@ karlof1 | Jul 6 2019 17:36 utc | 274
I think I might have used it here but didn’t record where. Glad to hear ‘Total Information Awareness’ has flaws.

Posted by: Formerly T.Bear | Jul 6 2019 17:45 utc | 275

Anyone know anything about seismograms?
Trying to figure out how this tracing is possible.
Specifically the red tracing @ 19:15. For every movement you should get an opposite movement, right? This tracing appears to show large movement in one direction which then stays at a new baseline for some time.

Posted by: Zack | Jul 6 2019 20:37 utc | 277

@Formerly T-Bear #265
John Bates Clark may not be popularized like Hayek, Mises, Friedman et al but he is very much a key figure in the economics counter reformation.
Among other things: the John Bates Clark medal is one of the premier prizes for economists in the US. It is awarded to the most promising, under 40 year old economist in the US.
First winner: Paul Samuelson
Third winner: Milton Friedman
Krugman was another winner, as was Stiglitz. Larry Summers was awarded one while he was at the World Bank.
Of the 41 awarded from 1947-2019: 8 Harvard, 6 University of Chicago, 5 Stanford.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 7 2019 1:21 utc | 279

Don Bacon @280
I wouldn’t call it brainwashing
But then you explain how their young minds are susceptible to brainwashing! LOL.
We shouldn’t say to them: You made a big mistake, and I’m glad you’re paying for it. No, we say thank you for your service.(The ones that return)
I’ve never seen anyone suggest such cruelty. You’re using that as strawman to justify the establishment’s patriotic brainwashing. And then you tack on “The ones that return” to garner sympathy for your position.
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Why do we feel obligated to show support for troops that execute policies that are unwise and wasteful? Why are we forced to support elite adventurism and wars that are for Empire, not defense of our country? They aren’t fighting for us – they’re fighting for the 1%.
Most of them thought they were fighting for freedom and democracy. So, why are we embarrassed into showing fake patriotism instead of genuine concern? Why not honor them with truth and real solidarity:

“If it’s any consolation, I disagreed with the policies that led to that war / forever wars / wars of choice / etc.”

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 7 2019 2:49 utc | 281

Don Bacon @282
Your definition of “brainwash” is extreme so it’s not surprising that you don’t provide a source. Most people would agree with Meriam Webster’s definition (redirects to “brainwashing”):

1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship

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In any case, IMO convincing soldiers that a “war of choice” is just and necessary and dehumanizing others so that killing and torture is acceptable constitutes a “radically different belief” for almost any young adult.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jul 7 2019 5:43 utc | 283

@ c1ue | Jul 7 2019 1:21 utc | 279
…but he is very much a key figure in the economics counter reformation.
The inner curmudgeon in me-self cannot resist: Exactly why ‘J is for Junk Economics’ called ‘J is for Junk Economics’? It would be quite close to shooting fish in a barrel to use guilt by association to find the measure of the holders of the J.B. Clark medal as those who f*cked up American Economics beyond redemption. For one, I don’t buy goods from their roadside stall; caveat emptor about what one fills their head with, even if it was good enough for Dr- David Rockefeller, esq.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jul 7 2019 7:09 utc | 285

Virtually everyone I know has zero interest in Geopolitics but they all have some well imbedded thoughts that i believe they are almost unaware of.
EG; one persons tells me , “well Russia is communist” (translation– Communist means evil).
“Kim is a truly evil dictator who murders his relatives among other things like starving his people. Even an 8 year old knows this”.
Exceptonalism, we’re number one is pounded into these non interested heads almost by osmosis.
Very few people bother to see through the constant indoctrination.
Kardarshians or the Yankees or the Packers get all the interest above peoples own more pressing interests like rent, food, job, or Jimmy’s soccer game at 5:30 Wednesday afternoon.
Again I am not apologising for the lack of concern , just seeing why.

Posted by: arby | Jul 7 2019 12:26 utc | 287

Further to #267 and Chrystia Freeland’s Canadian foreign policy, this is relevant:
‘Canada Adopts America First Foreign Policy’, US State Department Boasted in 2017, with Appointment of Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland
https://thegrayzone.com/2019/07/05/canada-adopts-america-first-foreign-policy-us-state-department-chrystia-freeland/
“The memo offers the most concrete evidence to date that the US sees Ottawa as an imperial subject and considers Canada’s foreign policy as subordinate to its own.”
Long obvious but as obvious is that too few Canuckleheads notice or care.

Posted by: John Gilberts | Jul 7 2019 13:00 utc | 289

Russian-led assault in Syria leaves over 500 civilians dead: rights groups, rescuers

Posted by: Curtis | Jul 7 2019 13:35 utc | 291

@Formerly T-Bear #285
I don’t believe that every recipient of the John Bates Clark medal is a shill for the oligarchs and a proponent of Junk Economics.
However, I do firmly believe that the guiding principles behind this award are shared by those who were/are worried about the proliferation of progressive/socialist ideas in economics.
A major tell is the lack of representation of empirical economics researchers who have shown that efficient market theory/logical market participants is very much inaccurate.
Another tell is winners like Parag Pathak, 2018 winner. His “empirical” studies are heavily cited as reasons for school choice and vouchers…
In any case, I really doubt anyone credible, who has looked into economics in any detail, can really dispute the disarray of the profession. Besides the enormous macro-economic forecasting failures (no bubbles, didn’t see crashes coming, etc), there are also examples like Stiglitz who – despite a career in mainstream economics, has become ever more strident in declaiming the failures of said mainstream economics.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 8 2019 4:28 utc | 293

Addendum to #294
If you read MoA – Open Thread 2019-37; Pft’s comment about #87/88, it approached the issue much better in the form from programming – trash in:trash out. As my point is since neoliberal MBA economics is faulty to the point of fraudulence, why bother to put that trash between one’s ears – it will only produce more trash (I would use a slightly more scatological term than trash). Nonetheless, Pft’s argument still stands as best outline of how the neoliberal agenda were able to destroy what FDR built in his New Deal.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jul 8 2019 16:26 utc | 295

@Formerly T-Bear #294
Unfortunately, you have gone so far off topic that I no longer have any idea who you are talking about.
Is the academic godlet Dr. Michael Hudson? John Bates Clark? Joseph Stiglitz? someone else?
As for Social Darwinism – this is a political theory – perhaps an anthropological one, not an economic one, and one which has been discredited for nearly 100 years.
I don’t agree that every person who works in the economics profession is a shill. There are those who focus on very specific, non-ideological niches like empirical testing, mathematical modeling, data collection and processing, etc. There are also those who don’t subscribe to the current model – the MMT group that overlaps with the UMKC program.
Yes, at least some of these people’s work is used by the neoliberals – but this is no different than Adam Smith or John Maynard Keynes having specific bits of their body of work used to justify neoliberal policies, or Karl Marx’s writings used to vilify communism.
In any case, I do agree that modern, mainstream economics is thoroughly discredited, but that doesn’t mean everyone in it is a conscious shill, ill intentioned or otherwise anti-society. As I noted in previous posts: Joseph Stiglitz has been increasingly vocal on how badly broken mainstream economic theory must be and thus the social/political constructs built upon it.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 9 2019 14:34 utc | 297