How The News About Italian Far-Right Fighters In Ukraine Got Confused
Fast pacing news can be confusing. Reports appear which contradict each other. They miss some significant details. News that was fake news can suddenly becomes right. Correct versions of the news can become fake news.
Here is a live case that shows how and why this can happen.
Yesterday the Italian state police arrested a number of neo-nazis who had fought against the Russian supported separatists in Ukraine. The police found their large weapon cache. The arrest became international news because the haul included a complete French air-to-air missile that was originally delivered to Qatar. (It was likely sent from Qatar to Libya, in support of the Muslim Brotherhood side of the conflict there, and then sold off to some Italian smugglers.)
Mark Ames noted that the reporting about the case seemed to contradict the Italian police statement:
Mark Ames @MarkAmesExiled - 20:34 UTC - 15 Jul 2019Official Italian police statement says the Nazis with the missiles fought "against [pro-Russian] separatists". But BBC says the Italian Nazis fought *for* Russian-backed separatists. Someone's dezinformatsiya-ing 🤔 https://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497390 …
Ames added screenshots of several retweets of the BBC report and of the original police statement. They support his assertion.
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The BBC report as well as the police statement have since changed. Fortunately both were saved multiple times at Archive.org.
The original BBC report, archived on July 15 at 15:04 UTC, read (emphasis added):
Anti-terrorism police in northern Italy have seized an air-to-air missile and other sophisticated weapons during raids on far-right extremist groups.Three people were arrested - two of them near Forli airport. Neo-Nazi propaganda was also seized, in raids in several cities.
Italian media say the raids were part of an investigation into Italian far-right help for Russian-backed separatist forces in eastern Ukraine.
...
Italian media named those arrested as Fabio Del Bergiolo, 50, an Italian ex-customs officer and far-right Forza Nuova party activist; Alessandro Monti, 42, a Swiss national; and Fabio Bernardi, 51, also Italian.On 3 July a court in Genoa jailed three men who were found guilty of fighting alongside the Russian-backed separatists who control a large swathe of Ukraine's Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
The second paragraph of the original Italian police statement, first archived on July 15 at 14:06 UTC, said (emphasis added):
Le indagini erano iniziate circa un anno fa quando la questura di Torino, coordinata dalla Direzione centrale della Polizia di prevenzione, aveva monitorato alcune persone legate a movimenti politici dell’ultra destra e che avevano combattuto nella regione ucraina del Donbass contro gli indipendentisti.
Translated (emphasis added):
The investigations had begun about a year ago when the police headquarters in Turin, coordinated by the Central Directorate of Prevention Police, had monitored some people linked to political movements of the ultra-right and who had fought in the Ukrainian region of Donbass against the separatists.
Several people had the impression that the BBC report claimed that yesterday's arrest was of people who had fought on the separatist side.
Caroline Orr @RVAwonk - 19:43 UTC - 15 Jul 2019Holy crap. Police in Italy seized a "combat ready" Qatari air-to-air missile, automatic weapons, and Nazi propaganda from an Italian neo-Nazi group linked to Russian-backed separatist forces in Ukraine
Italy seizes 'combat-ready' missile in raids on far right
The BBC report insinuated that the newly arrested neo-nazis fought on the separatist side, but it did not actually say that. It only claimed that the arrest came in the context of an investigation into some far-right support for Russian supported separatists.
The BBC writers may have been confused. It was the British news agency Reuters which first insinuated that the arrested neo-nazis had fought on the separatist side. It also truncated the police statement. The Reuters report, published by the New York Times on July 15, said (emphasis added):
Elite police forces searched properties across northern Italy following an investigation into Italians who had fought alongside Russian-backed separatist forces in eastern Ukraine, a police statement said.Three men were arrested, including a customs officer who had previously stood for Parliament for an extreme right party, the neo-fascist Forza Nuova.
...
The investigation “came into being because of the activities of some Italian fighters with extremist backgrounds who had taken part in the armed conflict in the Ukrainian region of Donbass,” the police statement said.
The last paragraph is where Reuters leaves out the "against the separatists" addition from the written police statement. The Reuters correspondent was probably himself confused as the facts seemed to contradict themselves.
There is indeed an Italian investigation into right-wing Italians who fought on the separatist side. On August 6 2018 the Washington Post reported:
In Italy, it has long been an open secret that far-right activists were fighting in Donbass, the eastern Ukrainian region where pro-Russian separatists — with Russian government assistance — have been fighting the Ukrainian government since 2014. Italian authorities, however, didn’t seem interested in stopping them.That suddenly changed last week, when prosecutors in the northern Italian city of Genoa ordered the arrest of six men accused of joining pro-Russian militias in Donbass and recruiting others to their cause.
...
One of the fugitives is Andrea Palmeri, a former leader of the far-right hooligan group Bulldog Lucca who had previously appeared on national TV boasting about fighting in Ukraine. Another one is Gabriele Carugati, the son of a politician from the far-right League party — the League is one of Italy’s two current governing parties — who had publicly praised her son’s choice to fight in Ukraine.
The confusion can be explained. There are several right-wing parties in Italy. The Lega Nord is a nationalist/populist party. It is currently led by the Deputy Prime Minister of Italy, Matteo Salvini. The Lega Nord is pro-Russian. It has a cooperation agreement with United Russia, the major Russian party that supports President Putin. There are allegations that it sought Russian money. It is thereby not astonishing that people associated with Lega Nord would fight on the side of the Russian supported separatist in the Donbass region.
The people arrested yesterday are associated with the Forza Nuova party which is much smaller than the Lega Nord and outright fascist:
Forza Nuova leader Roberto Fiore was once closely allied with the Ukrainian far-right Svoboda party, but following the beginning of the War in Donbass, Forza Nuova and Fiore "made a considerable shift to the pro-Russian camp."
One of the men arrested yesterday once was a candidate for Forza Nuova. It is not astonishing to learn that he fought on the side of Ukrainian fascists against the Donbass separatists.
Mainstream media like to put all right-wing parties into the same 'far-right' basket. But there is much more nuance on the far-right than most people assume. The nationalist right-wingers are often isolationists, while the fascist right is often internationalist. This is a bit like the conflict between Stalin and Trotsky in the last century. Both were 'communists' but:
After Lenin’s death, one of the leading questions in Russia was the question of internationalism – should they follow the ‘international revolution’ policy or the ‘socialism in one country’ policy? Trotsky sided with the former position, while Stalin sided with the latter.
The Italian police initially investigated right-wing people who had fought in the Ukraine on the side of the separatists. But yesterday's nab caught some that had fought on the other side.
The BBC has now corrected its report. The version archived at July 16 10:50 UTC change the third paragraph and added the relevant sentence from the original police statement:
The raids were part of an investigation into Italian far-right involvement in the conflict in eastern Ukraine, the Turin police said.
...
A police statement said the arrests were part of an investigation, started about a year ago, into far-right groups "who have fought in Ukraine's Donbass region against the separatists".
The date of the BBC report is still July 15 and there is no editorial hint that it was changed.
If the above is not confusing enough try this.
About the same time the BBC corrected its report the Italian state police changed theirs. The new version was archived on July 16 at 10:32 UTC. The second paragraph now reads:
Le indagini erano iniziate circa un anno fa quando la questura di Torino, coordinata dalla Direzione centrale della Polizia di prevenzione, aveva monitorato alcuni combattenti italiani con ideologie oltranziste responsabili in passato di aver preso parte al conflitto armato nella regione ucraina del Donbass.
The last three words of the original paragraph, "contro gli indipendentisti" = "against the separatists", have been deleted. It is now the more generic "who had fought in the Ukrainian region of Donbass". At the end of the page it says: "15/07/2019 (modificato il 16/07/2019)". (screenshot)
The corrected BBC piece has now become false. It claims that the police statement linked in it says "who have fought in Ukraine's Donbass region against the separatists". But the linked police statement no longer says that. The corrected BBC piece is suddenly fake news.
What can we learn from this fiasco?
The first lesson is to never trust the news. Does it make sense? Would outright fascist really fight on the side of the Donbass separatists against the Ukrainian Azov fascists who follow the same ideology? If in doubt one has to verify the news, as Mark Ames did, by looking at the original statements and sources.
The second lesson is to not blame the poor writers. If there are contradictions in the news it is probably because its authors lacked the full understanding of the situation. The news writers do not have the time to deeply research all issues. Their sources can be wrong. Especially initial wire reports are often incomplete or misleading. An editor may have interferred for political reasons.
The last lesson is that news can never replace the need for independent knowledge. It cost some time to gain that, but it is worth the effort.
Posted by b on July 16, 2019 at 17:04 UTC | Permalink
Italy has a long and proud tradition of fighting on both sides in any war. So of course patriotic right wing Italians follow this national tradition.
Posted by: kons | Jul 16 2019 17:24 utc | 2
Note to self: avoid overflying Ukraine airspace for the time being.
Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 16 2019 17:31 utc | 4
Please allow me to be off-topic -- but this is just such a great 3 min. read:
How Stupid Do They Think We Are?
Posted by: bjd | Jul 16 2019 17:31 utc | 5
That was no mistake. The BBC spread a lie that many people read and believed to be the truth. Not many people are going to read the corrected version. It is an old standby propaganda technique.
Posted by: Alfred (Cairns) | Jul 16 2019 17:32 utc | 6
I wonder if the Russia have anything to do with this bust, maybe they gathered the intelligence on the arms shipment/murder plot on Savini.
Posted by: Zanon | Jul 16 2019 17:34 utc | 7
Well. I mean, this is why you don't bother to read sites like BBC. If you have to wade through all that marketing bullshit, you want to get some information of value for it. At least some useful links or something. This sort of clever mis-reporting and dis-informing is worse than nothing.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 16 2019 17:37 utc | 8
bjd @5: Yes, Mr. Armstrong really makes everything clear and concise there. Making us believe impossible things all the time is an important part of the brainwashing. I saw one opinion that Juan Guaido was selected precisely because he was so inappropriate and they wanted to show they could pick anybody.
Of course, this hasn't been working too well.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 16 2019 17:47 utc | 9
Seems like a bunch of staged nonsense. One air to air missile really? Do these neo-nazis have an air force to go along with their one missile? Do arms dealers even sell one missile one at a time?
Posted by: O | Jul 16 2019 17:47 utc | 10
The Italian police inferred the arrested men were fighiting against the separatists because one of them was Roberto Fiore -- well known neofascist and Svoboda admirer. They then extrapolated to the whole group and simply put they were all going to fight the separatists (much like how the Islamic Arabs called all Europeans "French" during the Middle Ages -- almost all of the crusaders were French, so they inferred all Europeans were French).
This is a good assumption and the Italian police was probably right, but, in these cases (of official, legal nature), you can only do such affirmations when you're 100% sure.
The missile itself is quite interesting, in the context of lack of or possession of knowledge and news stories. The Matra Super 530 is semi-active radar homing, and therefore requires a compatible carrier aircraft and sensors to be of any use. This is most commonly a Mirage F1 or 2000. Any other platform would require extensive modification and re-qualification to make it remotely operational. So while quite impressive that these individuals managed to obtain such a weapon, the main threat is horrendously overwrought fear-mongering headlines, not the downing of an airliner full of tourists.
Posted by: Alex V | Jul 16 2019 17:51 utc | 12
This isn't terribly controversial in and of itself, and it's hardly the sort of thing to make a pro-Russian's blood run hotter, so I suspect it will not generate as much interest or as many comments as most of the articles here. But it is extremely good analysis, and from an extremely objective point of view. That's as rare as proverbial hen's teeth. B is an amazing analyst and this website is a tremendous gift to us all.
Posted by: Bruce | Jul 16 2019 17:56 utc | 13
Not surprising it was misreported. Most western news feeds get their news from three main sources -- Thompson Reuters, the Associated Press and Agence Press-France -- all based in New York and Paris. The major news services often simply cut and paste the stories with minor alteration. 0% most of the time in actual investigative reporting, and most all toeing the NATO narrative. https://swprs.org/the-propaganda-multiplier/
It's very rare to find mainstream news services that actually do the hard yards any longer and actually engage in investigative reporting. Interesting that this bust came so shortly after Putin's visit to Italy, and also with talk now of a parallel currency to be floated, sidestepping the Euro. Whether that happens or not remains to be seen. The "years of lead" are still fresh in people's minds here (I live in Italy). It's true the investigation with the resulting bust had been ongoing for a year, but one can't help but think that there is some sort of messaging going on here with all the changes to the wording of the reports.
Posted by: m | Jul 16 2019 18:03 utc | 14
AFP is another major news agency that spread the fake news about the neo-Nazi separatists in Ukraine (my emphasis):
"The raids were the result of a separate police probe into Italian extremists known to have joined pro-Russian rebels in fighting Ukrainian troops."
That version was published by a number of popular news websites that show up near the top of a Google search. Here are just some:
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/07/16/world/crime-legal-world/italy-seizes-air-air-missile-far-right-sympathizers/
https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3018731/italy-seizes-800kg-missile-far-right-sympathisers-after-raids
https://news.yahoo.com/italy-seizes-missile-far-sympathisers-170836112.html
This morning I reported the false report in the last of those links (on yahoo.com) to the "AFP Fact Check" site. I still haven't received a reply from AFP. However, that Yahoo article has since been corrected:
"The raids were the result of a police probe into Italian extremists known to have fought against pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine."
The other two web pages remain the same at the time of writing.
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 16 2019 18:43 utc | 15
When former Ontario Premier "Brampton" Bill Davis (18th Premier, 1971-85) was accused in the media of being "bland" he famously (and benignly) responded, "Bland works."
Today it seems that "Confusion works" - to the benefit of the malignant.
Posted by: spudski | Jul 16 2019 19:05 utc | 16
"Mainstream media like to put all right-wing parties into the same 'far-right' basket. But there is much more nuance on the far-right than most people assume. The nationalist right-wingers are often isolationists, while the fascist right is often internationalist. This is a bit like the conflict between Stalin and Trotsky in the last century. "
Perhaps that was the point of this staged raid and misreporting. Nationalist or populist movements are alway painted in broad strokes; left or right.
"News on our screens is incapable of imparting complexity and nuance. It is devoid of historical, social or cultural context. TV news speaks in easily digestible clichés and political and cultural tropes. It is sensational and fragmented. The frenetic pace of TV news means that except when delivering statistics, the programs can trade only in established stereotypes. TV news is, in essence, divorced from the real, mindlessly grounded in the ruling elites’ reigning ideology of neoliberalism, militarism and white supremacy."
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/worshipping-the-electronic-image-2/
Posted by: O | Jul 16 2019 19:32 utc | 17
Thanks b, for the reminder to critically think everything, every day..
@17; WTF?
Posted by: ben | Jul 16 2019 19:49 utc | 18
To clarify thing related to Ukraine, better go to Russian official sources, not those based in the russophobic UK.
This may be related to a defamation campaign orchestrated by the parts supporting the Kiev junta, as counter propaganda on the recent detention and trial of an Ukrainian diaspora neonazi in Italy related to the assasination of European journalists, one Italian and some Russians, working in the conflisct of Donbass.
Contrary to what has been the destiny of so many journalist in Kiev junta dominated Ukraine, the French journalist who acted as witness of the events, declared that they had good relations with Donbass separatists, thus, guess who is not interested in reporting the facts as they are, just the side who is killing, or jailing without charges, the journalists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7at76qNu5w
Posted by: Sasha | Jul 16 2019 19:59 utc | 19
The confusion can be explained.[...]
The people arrested yesterday are associated with the Forza Nuova
[...]
If the above is not confusing enough
Yes it can be explained, quite easily to anyone who hasn't been zombified or paid off by Intelligence.
All of it was staged, including the initial so-called 'mistakes' of traditional MSM.
The fascisti minnows arrested yesterday most likely have nothing to do with the weapons cache planted, then supposedly 'found,' by Italian authorities. The people who conducted this operation are from the Intelligence Mafia who contnue to manage the assets or dupes of what are historically referred to as Gladio stay behind terrorist networks.
B how did you not come to this conclusion immediately, please tell us all.
What is less well understood is why they are dismantling their own media via exposure in the supposed 'alternative.'
The answer is the media no longer matters, or very soon won't.
The old way works like this:
Donald Trump tweets "fake news!" and the people shout hurrah.
One year later Facebook begins massive censorship, de platforming all so-called 'fake news,' while the people who were cheering Trump on double down on their Messianic bet but also begin silently whimpering like too heavily beaten dogs.
Indeed you have no independent knowledge of anything perceived via media and what you do pick up with your own five senses is irrelevant if you can't coherently interpret what you perceive because you are ignorant of the magical properties of the things used to make you FUBAR.
But now the game is moving past us and the apparent truisms expressed in this post.
The new way goes like this:
When 5G millimeter waves begin penetrating your skull, from every device and direction in your environment, they will no longer have to worry about managing your perceptions via fake media, of any description whatsoever, because at that point they will be managing your senses as well.
By this I mean 5G will be used to act as an intermediary between your physical senses and brain.
And oh yeah Donald Trump is gonna ban Chinese 5G, LMAO, so let's all cheer him on.
Posted by: C I eh? | Jul 16 2019 20:15 utc | 20
More Russian official sources on who is joining who in the Ukrainian conflict.
It seems that they clearly identify this arsenal belonging to those nazis from Italy joining the "volunteer nazi battalions" in Ukraine.
At the same time, it seems that it is not only Italian nazis who are arriving in Ukraine since time ago to join the nazis and perform sabotage operations, but also well known renowned leaders of ISIS and Jabhat Al Nusra....
Notice, for a moment, who is in charge in the Ukraine now ( I mean behind the scenes ) and you will find that it is the same people who for some 8 years now has not managed to fight and eliminate ISIS in the territories illegally occupied by them in Syria under the pretext of fighting those same terrorists.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOOS7pvWXcg
Posted by: Sasha | Jul 16 2019 20:25 utc | 21
understand that the so-called center-left here in Italy, the partito democratico, acolytes of the Obama/Clinton neoliberal model, are still capable of furthering their narrative. though on the fast track to irrelevancy, being void of any ideas of how to actually run the country, a paltry resurrection of some kind of russiagate seems to be the best they can do.
…….
air-to-air
a million laughs!
Posted by: john | Jul 16 2019 20:32 utc | 22
b,
Many times I have posted on this website links to Archive.org.
I used the "A HREF...etc...etc" HTML tag each time.
And every time I tried to post a link this website parsed the URL in a peculiar way and
made the link useless.
How did you do it here, b?
Perhaps the website has changed recently so the HTML tag works properly with Archive.org?
Thanks in advance.
Posted by: librul | Jul 16 2019 20:45 utc | 23
Well, it seems that the FCO is, of course part of thios counter-propaganda campaign, as was to be guessed being the BBC involved.
Here, Mark Sleboda repsonding with facts to @foreignoffice video released twisting the facts:
https://twitter.com/MarkSleboda1/status/1149261230206590977
Posted by: Sasha | Jul 16 2019 20:57 utc | 24
Well, kinda off-topic, but kinda related since the same actors involved behind the scenes and so reminding of the Maidan where Berkuts were also attacked and even set on fire...
Here, a crowd of so called "Hong Kong freedom activists", savagely beating a solitary policeman...This, after the law on extradition has already been discharged....
https://twitter.com/HuXijin_GT/status/1150716985749069824
Thus, all this was not obviously for the extradition law, but that acted as alibi for a Maidan style coup d´etat which continues....
Posted by: Sasha | Jul 16 2019 21:03 utc | 25
A bit of history on the old occupation of spreading fake news, where the BBC and Ukrainian nazi junta appear as usual publishers of fake news in recent years, but going back in history, there appears the master...
“Kharkov” to “East Ghouta”: Imperialist propaganda has long used false photographs
Posted by: Sasha | Jul 16 2019 21:18 utc | 26
This is a short article about how messy real time news processing is and how to deal with that. It's not about bias. Not everything is bias.
Posted by: Tuyzentfloot | Jul 16 2019 21:22 utc | 27
"The corrected BBC piece is suddenly fake news."
Sorry B, but this is not the case. The BBC now has it right, whereas the Italian police is enmeshing the truth. Most likely due to political pressure exerted on them. The goal was to smear the separatists in the Donbass and thus Russia as right-wing extremists. And that seems to me to have been largely successful. Who reads corrected versions of articles?
Posted by: Pnyx | Jul 16 2019 21:23 utc | 28
I wonder if this Ukraine story is connected in any way with this Zelensky story from ft.com?
5 days ago - Russian president Vladimir Putin and his Ukrainian counterpart Vladimir Zelensky have agreed to continue high-level discussions over the conflict in eastern Ukraine and exchange of prisoners held by both sides, the Kremlin has said. The telephone conversation was the first...
A lot of warmongering assholes are going to be very unhappy if Vlad & Volodymyr can bring peace, or even a fair dinkum ceasefire, to Ukraine.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 16 2019 21:32 utc | 29
NATO document reveals U.S. still has nuclear weapons stationed at Incirlik Air Base outside Adana in Turkey. I wonder what security was like at the base when power was cut off for a few days after the coup attempt in 2016.
Posted by: lysias | Jul 16 2019 21:34 utc | 30
@17
Some stinky bait there. What ya fishin for? Might be fishin in the wrong pond, here.
Posted by: Bent Snath | Jul 16 2019 22:13 utc | 32
Posted by: casey | Jul 16 2019 17:29 utc | 3
Sounds very Gladio to me.
+1
Lega Nord cannot be described as fascist, they are regionalist - comparable to Catalonia - and yes, pro Russian.
I doubt the BBC mistake was innocent, I assume there is a guideline not to talk about irregular fascist groups supported by the Ukrainian government.
Possibly it was also meant to bury the news of an Italian court sentencing a Ukrainian national guard commander for the murder of an Italian photographer.
Italian right-wing/Lega Donbass fighters are few .
The fascist group seems to have threatened (Lega) Salvini, that is why there was action against them.
There is a "Mirotsvorets" doxxing list of "ennemies of Ukraine" - none of the Western governments supporting Ukraine feel they can do something about.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 16 2019 22:24 utc | 33
Much as I dislike to engage trolls I can't quite let this one go @ 17 Cohen.
There is an elite in all tribes, whether English, Jewish, American. But there were also poor English and poor Jews and poor Americans. I think of them. Also English artists, Jewish artists and American artists. English factory workers, Jewish factory workers and American factory workers.
When Jewish aristocrats met English aristocrats it was a match made in heaven or blood and deceit and lies and the English empire was a consequence. Who was going to win out between the two? As it happened the first main Rothschild, Nathan, was a sort of financial genius and just kicked English aristocratic ass. To us people of little consequence watching it in backwards it seems almost like a sporting contest where Rothschild Nathan just thrashed the living daylights out of the opponent. And then the Jewish elite thought decades in advance. They would nurture a candidate that just might be useful in about forty five fucking years (think the FED and Colonel House and Paul Warburg).
Now with Epstein and the Hollywood dude we are witnessing a war between Jewish elites. One side is don't rock the boat for fucks sake because it's all a Ponzi scheme, and the other side going for the opposite.
Unfortunately I can't think of an end for this, except maybe go and Listen to Leonard Cohen.
Posted by: Lochearn | Jul 16 2019 22:35 utc | 34
I should think the surprise is that no-one here at the MoA bar is all that surprised that the BBC would excitedly claim that Forza Nuova Nazis fought with the Donbass rebels in the past. It seems to be part of the BBC's current remit to deliberately conflate anything related to Nazi Germany including its symbols with anything related to the Soviet Union and Communism in the past and to Russia in the present, to suggest all these nations past and present share a common ideology, a common value system and a common intent to dominate others.
And this includes making sure Ukraine never finds common cause with Russia to get rid of neo-Nazis in its own society or territory, or to admit any culpability for the Malaysian Airlines passenger jet shoot-down five years ago (and which incident the BBC itself covered over with disinformation in its own mendacious reporting).
So-called right-wing parties often differ more from one another than some of these parties differ from supposedly left-wing parties. Some positions now typically associated with right-wing parties (such as decentralisation of government functions from central government to states, provinces or even local government authorities, or the use of local currencies in some regions within a country) were formerly positions associated with left-wing parties. For a time in the mid-20th century, environmentalism and anti-smoking campaigns had a reputation for being promoted by Nazi Germany (because these fitted in with Nazi ideology about Aryans being a pure people of the soil who should keep their bodies clean and unpolluted by products like cigarettes).
What's missing here in the MoA post also is what Forza Nuova were planning to do with the missile - I had heard they were selling the missile and there were potential buyers, including one buyer representing a foreign government.
Posted by: Jen | Jul 16 2019 22:39 utc | 35
Unfortunately I can't think of an end for this, except maybe go and Listen to Leonard Cohen.
Posted by: Lochearn | Jul 16 2019 22:35 utc | 35
Great suggestion.
Everybody knows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lin-a2lTelg
Posted by: O | Jul 16 2019 22:45 utc | 36
It's still being reported on BBC news as linked to Russian rebels.
Posted by: ken | Jul 16 2019 22:56 utc | 37
I suspected as much as soon as I saw that report (fake version) and I pointed it out on Twitter to some idiots who were spreading it far and wide. The truth was still putting its shoes on while the lie was running around the world.
Posted by: KC | Jul 16 2019 23:02 utc | 38
@ KC who end comment with
"
The truth was still putting its shoes on while the lie was running around the world.
"
While I want to believe b's "confused" part of this story, I still have to ask cui bono?
And the answer to me is anyone but the public at large. I am seeing the public being brainwashed into locked in bias that reporting like this either reinforces or is discarded as fake news.....it is a form of controlling and reinforcing the narrative from the fringes where direct control of the narrative has been lost/compromised.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 16 2019 23:21 utc | 39
CNN reported it exactly the same tonight. My ears pricked up when I heard "Nazi regalia" and "Pro russian seperatists" in the same sentence.
Posted by: Hermius | Jul 16 2019 23:29 utc | 40
speaking of Ukraine
Ivan Katchanovski
@I_Katchanovski
43m43 minutes ago
In spectacular manifestation of collapse of #Maidan massacre trial & investigation: #Ukraine court releases to house arrest after over 5 year arrest Berkut member because of lack of evidence of his involvement in killings of 48 Maidan protesters & terrorism that he is tried for.
https://twitter.com/I_Katchanovski/status/1151248133898342400
Ivan Katchanovski
@I_Katchanovski
39m39 minutes ago
"Activists" greeted the Maidan massacre trial decision at the courtroom by loud condemnation. They did not attend any previous trial sessions and know nothing about evidence and trial revelations concerning Maidan snipers. https://youtu.be/0CfMj8Y9VTI?t=16962 …
Posted by: brian | Jul 16 2019 23:58 utc | 41
Alex V @ 12
Interesting, a missile that they have almost no chance of using tactically was found in the hands of a former Italian customs officer with Nazi literature. There must be a whole 10 or 12 Nazi sympathizers in all of Italy. Sounds like a first class con job by a guy doing some freelance work. A fart of a story considering the circumstance. If this is the best then can do then I would guess another hair brained Bolton style operation has failed.
I read a Dutch poll a few weeks ago saying how the Ukrainians are just tired of all this BS the EU has hoisted upon then and how it has ruined their lives. The mood has obviously swung with the smashing of the former EU backed president and the election of a comedian and a total outsider. Remember, Russia was the Ukraine's largest trading partner.
As always consider the sources of the stories from the Western press. A peace deal may be in the works and if so the EU idiots and the former administration in the US have lost big time.
Posted by: dltravers | Jul 17 2019 0:23 utc | 43
Tangentially... with Grace1 the confusion mounts as Israeli Shurat HaDin seeks injunction of the ship using US court awards as ground to claim the ship. Additionally UK is looking to impound the ship for being unseaworthy, while US and Iran contradict each other on agreement to negotiate on anything, and background hostility towards Iran increases in the press. The Iran seeming detention of a sixty meter UAE fuel transporter is flashed everywhere as oil tanker with associated photos of three or four hundred meter tankers instead, though it is really the intent that counts I suppose. I can't even figure who is trying to hype and who is trying to tone down anymore the signals are so mixed.
Posted by: gzon | Jul 17 2019 0:30 utc | 44
@ gzon who wrote
"
I can't even figure who is trying to hype and who is trying to tone down anymore the signals are so mixed.
"
That was a joke, right?
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 17 2019 0:42 utc | 45
@ psychoh. 46
No... Iran is willing to escalate in retaliation and the west are also playing into Iran's own agenda by sending purposefully misleading signals, which they think will suit their own agenda once or if Iran escalates, but which also provide reason to the Iran leadership. Even if Iran's own agenda is not aggressive but to consolidate its presence and support an ally, the nature of these encounters is one of conflict, and in conflict the rules get made along the way by both sides. Yes Iran is approaching from a generally defensive position though, but it does have own ambitions, which is normal. In short it is getting messy.
Posted by: gzon | Jul 17 2019 1:16 utc | 46
@ gzon who wrote
"
Yes Iran is approaching from a generally defensive position though, but it does have own ambitions, which is normal. In short it is getting messy.
"
I think you are spreading the both sides are at fault BS and I am not buying it. Your word salad about Iran's ambitions is misleading. They are defending their country against empire who is playing all the cards they can against Iran, and would invade it if Russia/China hadn't told them NO.
But you write BS like Iran has ambitions and is an aggressor in some manner.
I continue to not buy your word salad attempt at misdirection of who the aggressor is in this arena, at this time.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 17 2019 1:28 utc | 47
librul@24 - archive.org (WaybackMachine) stored content has been down all day. If this link works, it's back up: https://web.archive.org/web/*/www.moonofalabama.org
TypePad (used by MoA) chokes on the links produced by archive.org. The problem is the embedded "http: / / www.savedsite.com" - the forward slashes are only expected at the very beginning of the link, i.e., http://archive.org, if at all . TypePad gets mad when it 'sees' the second (or embedded) set in the middle of the link you're pasting. I can't recall (or test) the workaround right now. It's either 1) edit out the "http:/ /" in the middle of the link, or (?) use replace the two middle slashes with the HTML code for the forward (fractional) slash: &frasl&frasl
Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 17 2019 1:38 utc | 48
For me, and perhaps a while bunch of barflies, a new term/concept: Information laundering. This affair might qualify. Kevin Gosztola uses the term in his debunking of CNN's latest Assange hit-piece:
"In the cycle of information laundering, the next mention will come from U.S. government officials likely suggesting CNN report showed Müller-Maguhn was involved in transporting stolen emails. The more it's laundered, the more suspicions transform into orthodoxy."
He said; she said; they said; now it somehow becomes factual and the government uses it to persecute a person or attack a nation--a process we see all the time. Information Laundering is quite appropriate.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 17 2019 1:51 utc | 49
Oliver Stone Wants to End the War in Donbass With New Upcoming Documentary Film!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qReJGNsvEA
Posted by: curious man | Jul 17 2019 1:56 utc | 50
b: "...The arrest became international news because the haul included a complete French air-to-air missile that was originally delivered to Qatar..."
Well, not quite 'complete' nor 'combat ready'. These ex-Qatari Super 530Fs made their way to Spain when Qatar transferred a dozen(?) of their old Mirage F1EDAs to them a couple of decades ago. Spain upgraded their Mirages to use the Sidewinder in the early 2000's - not sure if they still could use the Matras on the upgraded aircraft. All their Mirages were decomissioned a decade or two ago, so they have no aircraft that could use these missiles.
At any rate, a bunch of demilitarized Super 530Fs (conveniently still in the shipping cans) were sold to private mil collectors and museums. No warhead, no solid fuel motor and I doubt any interesting electronics remain. Here's a post from the CombatAce forum - scroll down to Ravenclaw_007s post - showing some guy hiding a couple of them in his garage (away from the prying eyes of his soon-to-be ex-wife, furious at him for buying them). This is just the first random picture I could find of the 'privately held' demilitarized 530s. I saw other pics of proud owners(!) years ago as well.
I doubt the guy has any relation to the above story, but it looks like the Italian Terrorist Polizia's 'Nazi arms cache' was just a nutty mil collector [sigh...].
Posted by: PavewayIV | Jul 17 2019 2:09 utc | 51
No, I did not say Iran was the agressor. Since the Iraq Iran war I don't think the US has directly invaded though, there have been skirmishes outside . The US is playing its hedemonic cards against Iran (when it is not arming it per Iran contra, or oriental oil kish and Haliburton?), the open agression being on states allied to Iran, where Iran chooses to defend those allies. It is therefore in conflict, and conflict means aggression also (so far on US proxy), deceit (because you don't announce your full intentions to an enemy, because you allow the other to imagine as leverage ), and forms of approach that bolsters own position among own people. Ambitions, ok Iran has no ambitions and it has "lost" already then...I say Iran's ambitions are mostly reasonable is all. The above all lead to confusion of intent, makes miscalculation easy. I'm not here to convince anyone anything, and if you feel right with your view, but that it doesn't fit with mine, I'm ok with that also. If you see two people about to fight, do you take sides or do you say "guys!"... and you know already that my view is that the west is the one acting hostile most all of of the times to now.
Posted by: gzon | Jul 17 2019 2:17 utc | 52
So while quite impressive that these individuals managed to obtain such a weapon, the main threat is horrendously overwrought fear-mongering headlines, not the downing of an airliner full of tourists. by: Alex V @ 12 and a missile that they have almost no chance of using tactically was found in the hands of a former Italian customs officer with Nazi literature. There must be a whole 10 or 12 Nazi sympathizers in all of Italy. Sounds like a first class con job by a guy doing some freelance work dltravers@44
False flag.. established.. bury the guy that knows the truth.. please ..
Needed please are some white helmets to gas up the place.. Just for fun..
Posted by: snake | Jul 17 2019 2:20 utc | 53
@ gzon who wrote
"
If you see two people about to fight, do you take sides or do you say "guys!"... and you know already that my view is that the west is the one acting hostile most all of of the times to now.
"
Your statement is internally inconsistent. To be consistent the first part would have to read, "If you see a bully continuing to pummel a victim trying hard to defend itself".....
And why in the second part do you include the word "most" when "always" or just leaving the word out is more accurate?
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 17 2019 2:46 utc | 54
The powers that be have the ability to kill bad news at its source. Someone ordered the Italian State Police to change their statement.
A similar thing happened to the May 19, 2017 Fox News story that claimed that Seth Rich was the insider who gave the DNC emails to Wikileaks. Ed Butowsky makes a convincing case that Seth Rich was indeed the leaker: Lawsuit outs Ellen Ratner as source for Seth Rich information (See page 2 and the 50 page PDF)
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 17 2019 3:46 utc | 55
OT: I like your term 'information laundering' karlof1. I've just been watching it happening in a place of lesser importance to world affairs, the cricket World Cup. Where, it is my heartfelt belief, said cup was stolen - not by the players, but by someone orchestrating the umpires' decisions. An extra run was awarded the British team, and thereby further orchestration gave them the championship. Now the cry from all publications is 'don't rock the boat'. Hah, twasn't I nor all Black Caps fans that rocked it; the umpires did that.
[Sorry, just had to get it off my chest. I feel better now.]
Posted by: juliania | Jul 17 2019 6:25 utc | 56
@librul
archive.org links get parsed wrongly by the blog software
You can post them here by using an URL shortener like https://tinyurl.com/ It will give a short URL that can be posted here.
If you post a tinyurl link here please add some text saying where it is leading to.
La Stampa (machine translated)
The seizure of weapons, including a missile, from a neo-fascist group in Turin, was reported by the deputy prime minister, but the Digos and the Procura do not confirm it
The investigation that led to the discovery and seizure of an arsenal of weapons of war, including an air-to-air missile, which took place yesterday in Turin to a pro-Ukrainian neo-Nazi group, as it turns out, would have originated from an investigation that began in a information received from a former KGB secret agent who reported a terrorist project against the Interior Minister, Matteo Salvini, by some Ukrainian nationalists. Not having found any evidence in this regard, the same investigative sources are known, it was decided to monitor the activity of some Italian fighters who took part in the armed conflict in the Ukrainian region of Donbass. And it was precisely from this monitoring that contracts were found between one of the militiamen and an arms expert who proposed the purchase, on behalf of a third party, of a missile that was then seized in a hangar in the province of Pavia.Minister Salvini during a press conference today in the prefecture of Genoa declared that the report was sent on his notice: "It was one of the many death threats that I receive every day, in this case detailed. Then you never know if you're dealing with a madman. I have forwarded the report. Here we talked about a Ukrainian group that tried to attack my life ". In the end "he was not a madman, a mythomaniac, and I am happy - adds the minister - that this threat to me has served to discover an arsenal of some demented". "I am happy with the kidnapping and I thank the police: when they get communist and pro-Nazi thread," he concludes.
Posted by: Per/Norway | Jul 17 2019 0:15 utc | 42
Yes, and they seem to have reached the stage where they threaten (and kill) politicians.
Gladio was a cold war "last fight" tool, should communism win. In this case Russia might win.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 17 2019 9:22 utc | 59
This is exactly what Dr. Daniele Ganser refers to as the need to be media savvy (Medienkompetenz) - he spent a lot of time and effort teaching this concept across European audiences, unfortunately most is in German.
Posted by: Peter Camenzind | Jul 17 2019 9:22 utc | 60
"The BBC writers may have been confused."
Nope...nothing on the BBC can be trusted any more. Here in the UK their inaccuracies and propagandizing are a standing joke (outide the media and political classes of North London, of course).
Posted by: Error404 | Jul 17 2019 9:30 utc | 61
At the presser for the arrests and seizures, the Italian Police said precisely that the far right extremists were linked to the Ukrainian side of the Donbass conflict, as they wrote in their first press release on the website, then modified exactly when Salvini (who is the Interior Minister, aka he controls the Police!) claimed that these operation started after death threats he received.
Very confused story, clearly we do not have all the information here (a lot of the weapons seems to be for collection or even soft air games).
You can listen the presser here, from min 4.45:
https://www.radioradicale.it/scheda/579544/blitz-di-polizia-nel-nord-italia-sequestrate-armi-da-guerra-ad-estremisti-di-destra
The BBC did report on the recent guilty verdict of Ukranian nazi journalist killer Vitaly Moichuk... but only on the BBC's Ukranian Service (which has been following the developments for some time):
2019:
https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/news-48961925
Now try searching for Vitaly Markiv on the standard English language BBC News website. You won't find anything.
Now compare the current BBC Ukranian Service reporting of missile, arms and nazi paraphernalia to its english language counterpart and you will find the Ukranian version includes the guilty verdict on Markiv, the English version doesn't:
https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/news-48995301
The BBC's usual MO is lies of omission.
Posted by: et Al | Jul 17 2019 10:03 utc | 63
The Lega is not pro-Russian. After the recent European elections, when the Lega got more than 30% of the votes and looked like it might soon win national elections and form a government, Salvini has turned from pro-Russian to anti-Russian. He came to Washington to kiss Pompeo's foot, has expressed support for the USA^ s illegal and immoral embargo against Venezuela and Iran, and has even come around to supporting the West's sanctions against Russia.
Posted by: carlo geneletti | Jul 17 2019 10:15 utc | 64
"Mainstream media like to put all right-wing parties into the same 'far-right' basket. But there is much more nuance on the far-right than most people assume. The nationalist right-wingers are often isolationists, while the fascist right is often internationalist. This is a bit like the conflict between Stalin and Trotsky in the last century. Both were 'communists' but:
After Lenin’s death, one of the leading questions in Russia was the question of internationalism – should they follow the ‘international revolution’ policy or the ‘socialism in one country’ policy? Trotsky sided with the former position, while Stalin sided with the latter."
IMHO and relatively uninformed opinion, this point is so important to make over and over. The terms "left" and "right" have swiftly diminishing value, because of the various viewpoints that are combined in different ways. The "left-liberal" press will label anything "rightist" that they do not like for some particular local reason, even if people in that group actually support other positions that chime with the "left liberals." I think may be more awareness of the important nuances on the right, but not sure.
Many political commentators and pundits still are trying to serve up a prix fixe special with soup to nuts compris in the price. But more and more people are going for "a la carte," where they look at the menu complet and choose the bits they want. Then they look for a party or group that matches best. Or, they can't find a party that matches.
This problem is particularly acute in the States, with its two-party system. I am not a poitical scientist so won't go on.
But I do think that b's point, quoted above, regarding the NOT monolithic profiles of "left" and "right" has to be reiterated and expounded upon often and in different contexts, as relevant. This, to clarify that politically, the world is a far more complicated place than Western pundits would have their audience(s) believe. An oversimplification that, I think, they push because it contributes to the confusion and disempowerment of the populace/voters. If the latter want A, they are going to have to take B along with it.
Posted by: Really? | Jul 17 2019 11:27 utc | 65
"So-called right-wing parties often differ more from one another than some of these parties differ from supposedly left-wing parties. Some positions now typically associated with right-wing parties (such as decentralisation of government functions from central government to states, provinces or even local government authorities, or the use of local currencies in some regions within a country) were formerly positions associated with left-wing parties. For a time in the mid-20th century, environmentalism and anti-smoking campaigns had a reputation for being promoted by Nazi Germany (because these fitted in with Nazi ideology about Aryans being a pure people of the soil who should keep their bodies clean and unpolluted by products like cigarettes)."
I think someone has created a grid diagram that shows the basic combinations of global/national; central planning/free market; Immigration yes/no; proactive ennvironmental policy yes/no; LGBT identity politics yes/no.
Forget the "left/right" labels and use a code scheme to indicate where different groups line up. I know that someone has done something like this but I don't know where.
Posted by: Really? | Jul 17 2019 11:40 utc | 66
The answer to your question is pretty simple.
global/national - that is geopolitics not left or right
The Soviet Union has always supported national independence struggle outside of their zone of influence and the US have supported it in the Soviet Zone.
central planning/free market - free market is a position of the center, left and right are in favor of some type of central planning.
Immigration yes/no , immigration no is a right issue, protection of workers a left issue. There is no left argument against immigration into a booming economy. Trade Unions would try to organize them, left parties try to get immigrant votes. Things become difficult for left parties when there is unemployment.
proactive ennvironmental policy - that could be a right argument but never has been. "blood and soil" is not about the environment. Environmental policy is not about "rural values". I guess, environmentalists could argue for living in the cities and leave the rest to wildlife and reforrestation if it is good for ecology. I guess environmental policy is out of reach for right wing anti-globalists as the only solution is global. It could be a left wing argument but never has been, as trade unions are dependent on the success of their industries.
LGBT / identity politics - what IS it. You could describe Trumpism as white male identity politics. Or ant-immigration nationalism as identity politics. If it is about equality it is a left issue.
The left/right description is derived from the French revolution.
The terms "left" and "right" appeared during the French Revolution of 1789 when members of the National Assembly divided into supporters of the king to the president's right and supporters of the revolution to his left.
If you take that definition "left" means liberty, equality, solidarity and right means authority, inequality and hatred.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 17 2019 12:31 utc | 67
Really interesting investigation you have here. I just tried to write an article about all that sh*tshow and got rather confused.
My derivation at the end was that Italian police doesn't know for sure, where these people go to fight, bc there's so many nazi fractions in Italy. Now outlets (me included) take police's public announcement and interpret it how the want it the truth to be. Russia Today says it was Pro-Ukr nazis, Western media says it was pro-Eastern. In the article i described those contradictions in police's and Salvini's statements, but simply bc Forza Nuova is pro-kremlin, i think it is probable that they contact with pro-Ru separatists.
However, the rocket itself - i've heard some allegations that they might've wanted to SELL it to Lybia. Thats bc they operate old Mirages(?) that are needed to fire the rocket at all. Neither side of donbass has n reason to buy the rocket.
Posted by: thinker | Jul 17 2019 13:25 utc | 68
.......as it turns out, would have originated from an investigation that began in a information received from a former KGB secret agent who reported a terrorist project against the Interior Minister, Matteo Salvini, by some Ukrainian nationalists. Not having found any evidence in this regard...... the purchase, on behalf of a third party, of a missile that was then seized in a hangar in the province of Pavia.
Posted by: b | Jul 17 2019 8:40 utc | 58
LOL, cool story, bro!
Like with that Guccifer, it is all about KGB :-D
Frankly, this sounds to me as the "legalization of spy data", an ugly and demonstratively unbelievable story, hacked together just to have a ready answer to any Judge asking "why you policemen even went to look into that sh-thole?" - Oh, your honour, we had a report we were obliged to verify...!
In Russian I would call it технично слили, sold those crooks to police with some elegance.
Of course, by all public documents in police it would go exactly like that - and that was the reason for that story to be concocted and staged :-D
Someone has a sick sense of humour, who "landed" those Nazi so hard way, and I very appreciate it :-D
Posted by: Arioch | Jul 17 2019 13:46 utc | 69
Many times I have posted on this website links to Archive.org.
I used the "A HREF...etc...etc" HTML tag each time.
Posted by: librul | Jul 16 2019 20:45 utc | 23
This forum has wrong (way too greedy, in technical terms) hyperlink autodetection. It can not detect you are already in the hyperlink place, so it inserts hyperlink inside hyperlink.
(( yo dog! meme follows here ))
What you have to do is removing the second (in the middle) protocol from the link.
https://web.archive.org/web/20190715140658/www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497390
Link here: here "namesake" goes end of link.
Posted by: Arioch | Jul 17 2019 13:56 utc | 70
I wonder, can we have a poll in USA how many Americans suffered verbal abuse from law enforcers?..
On June 26th – 27th, the western-owned Moscow Times, The Independent (UK), and the U.S.-government funded RFE/RL all published articles about a poll put out by the independent (i.e. western funded) Levada Center claiming that 10 percent of all Russians have been tortured by Russian authorities......
...as described on page 44 of the Levada report. According to page 44, “torture” includes verbal abuse, threats of extortion and other non-physical acts, as well as threats directed at third persons.
Once anglo-journo is always anglo-journo....
Posted by: Arioch | Jul 17 2019 14:28 utc | 71
Long-time lurker (thee years) and first time posting.
So much appreciate B’s excellent site and analysis and the commentariat.
Also thanks for comment #5 in this thread and link to article, such a great satisfying three minute read!
Posted by: Off the Radar | Jul 17 2019 15:56 utc | 72
@ Posted by: b | Jul 17 2019 8:40 utc | 58
So, it seems it was just an internal quarrel between the different factions of the Italian far-right.
I put too much good-faith on the Italian police.
There is no right wing sector in Ukraine. The whole Ukraine is the right wing nazi sector
Posted by: Bane | Jul 17 2019 20:10 utc | 74
Italy's main news agency, Ansa cites Italian officials as linking the Italian neo-Nazis to the Azov Battalion:
" A former KGB agent flagged the existence of an assassination attempt plot on Salvini by Ukrainian ultranationalists but no evidence was found for the alleged plan, Italian police and prosecutors said later.
Surveillance of five Italians, former militiamen considered close to the Azov Battalion, led to the discovery of an attempt to sell the French-made Matra missile, they said."
http://www.ansa.it/english/news/world/2019/07/16/neo-nazis-wanted-to-kill-me-says-salvini_9df1b5a7-1a0e-41fd-bcdc-54998fb269e5.html
Azov is fanaticaly anti-Russian. That kills the story of pro-Russian neo-Nazis.
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 18 2019 8:26 utc | 75
bjd’s link in #5 and Sasha’s link in #26 are great! Those who have friends/relatives brainwashed with anti-Russian/anti-Syrian propaganda, may want to use these links to attempt de-programming them.
Posted by: S | Jul 18 2019 15:47 utc | 76
A suggestion to those who use archive.org to archive web pages: make a second archive at archive.is. There might come a time when the Empire tries to shut down/censor/subvert archive.org. It’s better to have a back-up when that time comes. (As an added bonus, the archive.is links don’t break MoA’s TypePad software.)
Posted by: S | Jul 18 2019 15:54 utc | 77
The BBC think we are all daft when it comes to their inability to report the truth. Using Newssniffer, I watched it alter an article it posted about our old chums The Integrity Initiative:-
The BBC is the biggest government propaganda machine on this planet.
Posted by: Bevin Kacon | Jul 18 2019 19:22 utc | 78
Looking around corners to find out what was really going on in the Ukraine, partly because of my suspicions based on knowing some history of the Ukraine, led to my final, decisive break with the "respectable" mainstream media. The final straw was realizing how the Odessa Massacre had been whitewashed in the MSM. Then there was a process of discovering lies, lies, and more lies.
Posted by: Thirdeye | Jul 18 2019 22:45 utc | 79
Eventhough so many here tried hard to convince us that the arsenal confiscated to the pro-Kiev junta Italian nazis was a personal collection....it seems that more arsenals continue to appear, amongst them more antiaircrfat missiles...
https://twitter.com/ValLisitsa/status/1151851175467266048
Posted by: Sasha | Jul 19 2019 20:03 utc | 80
The comments to this entry are closed.
I wonder why the Ukrainian Nazis would want air-to-air missiles.
Posted by: lysias | Jul 16 2019 17:21 utc | 1