Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 17, 2019

A US Led Naval Coalition In The Persian Gulf Will Raise The Threat Of War

by Seyed Mohammad Marandi

While Bolton and Pompeo push the region towards maximum tension and Trump makes despicable threats to obliterate Iran, the US military has announced its intention to create and lead an anti-Iranian naval coalition in the Persian Gulf. Meanwhile, by Trump's own admission, the United States is engaged in economic war against Iranians, as its armed forces have aggressively violated Iranian airspace and territorial waters, resulting in the humiliating downing of its most sophisticated drone by an Iranian surface to air missile.

A few naval ships from far off nations will not change the balance of power, but they will increase confusion and the chances for major regional conflict. Iranians will also view such an entity as an extension of a belligerent American naval presence.

Since the illegal and tragic US occupation of Iraq, the Islamic Republic of Iran has been constructing a vast network of underground missile defense facilities alongside the Persian Gulf, the Strait of Hormuz, and the Gulf of Oman in anticipation of possible US attacks. Iran and its powerful allies have also developed formidable asymmetrical capabilities across the region. It has both the will and means to decisively engage with a belligerent power.

In order to prevent any appetite for all-out war, Iran will respond to a limited military strike with a massive and disproportionate counterstrike targeting both the aggressor and its enablers. Regional regimes such as the UAE and Saudi Arabia that facilitate aggression in any way or form should expect the swift destruction of their oil assets and critical infrastructure. On the other hand, all-out war would mean the obliteration of all oil and gas installations as well as ships on both sides of the Strait of Hormuz. Under such circumstances, the closure of the Strait would be the least of Bolton's problems.

The Emirati and Saudi regimes would most probably swiftly collapse. Millions of indentured servants would overrun Abu Dhabi and Dubai while Yemeni forces and their regional allies would overwhelm Saudi Arabia as western occupation forces would be expelled from the region. Millions of people would stream towards Europe, even as the EU and the rest of the world would be facing an economic catastrophe.

Iran does not welcome confrontation nor does it desire war and its massive and extensive military deterrence is designed to prevent such circumstances. Instead of pushing the world closer to tragedy, potential US partners should push the US back to the nuclear deal and the negotiating table.

Seyed Mohammad Marandi is professor of English Literature and Orientalism at the University of Tehran.

Posted by b on July 17, 2019 at 9:49 UTC | Permalink

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Uncle Jon @ 70:

Thanks for the link to the Laurent Guyenot article at the Unz Review website. I'll read the article when I have more time.

Bevin @ 87:

While the narrative about the Saud royal family being of Jewish origin may well have been influenced by European anti-Semitism imbibed by Arab peoples during European colonial rule and after, it may also say something about the dislike (and the depth of that dislike) that many people in the Middle East and North Africa have for the Saudis and their Wahhabi cult.

Certainly the report I mentioned @ 65 relies on some dubious sources (which is why I suggested to Uncle Jon that he could take it or leave it) and the Mukhabarat, like any other "self-respecting" intelligence agency in the world, could have taken the opportunity at the time, in order to please the Iraqi President, to make connections where none exist and cherry-pick those stories and narratives that fit an agenda to demonise the Saudis and their religion, distasteful though both are.

Certainly to make the kind of genealogical connections that the report makes between Mohammed ibn Wahhab, the Saudi family and a heretical messianic Jewish cult forced to convert to Islam seems to us Westerners to be astounding and very suspect. This of course says much about the importance (or lack rather) we Westerners give to oral testimonies and fallible memories. But for some cultures that set greater store by oral tradition rather than writing, who knows how fallible or infallible word of mouth over generations might be? In Australia, there are indigenous cultures whose collective memory of ancient flooding can be amazingly accurate when judged against scientific criteria.

Posted by: Jen | Jul 18 2019 4:53 utc | 101

@57 psychohistorian
In response to those that don't think the US will suffer.....I don't have a link but have read and believe that the power system in the US is quite fragile with all our transformers at risk and not made in the US anymore with many month lead time to produce.

Could be much worse with just three or four emps (electro magnetic pulse) placed in the right spots in our skies above. Anyone read One Second After, by William Forstchen? Chilling tale of what can occur one second after one of those exploding in one's atmosphere.

However, i'm fairly new to this site, so forgive me if this has already been recently covered, but whereas the vast majority of the american electrical grid seems quite vulnerable to this kind of attack, does anyone know how well off anyone else would be against this kind of terrorism?

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Jul 18 2019 5:23 utc | 102

aye, myself & me @101

You pose the following:

"... , but whereas the vast majority of the american electrical grid seems quite vulnerable to this kind of attack, does anyone know how well off anyone else would be against this kind of terrorism?"

Your query could be interpreted two differing ways: First, in terms of defense against such an attack; second, in terms of benefitting from providing defense against such an attack, i.e. as a "defense" contractor. Both require rather different answers. Might you elaborate?

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 5:55 utc | 103

My quick comment to Orlov's excellent new article, linked to in this thread.

Yes, nice summary and funny at the end. Many of these facts were familiar to anyone following the matter even without a specific US report. In short, the US is threatening some of the countries that its supply chains depend on. Some can be replaced, some cannot easily.

Whilst reading, I had this funny image how US starts the mythical Nuclear First Strike and due to accumulated errors on their 5 1/4 floppies (really, really floppy and rather unreliable, totally opposite to what someone here commented - I suggest to that individual to pass one of those floppies a couple of inches away from a fridge magnet) the bastards blow themselves up. In reality, the ICBMs could not explode because of floppy drives then because of many other past use-date components. Unlike the ancient cathode ray tubes, all solid state electronics have very limited lifespan. Some electronics are being replaced and upgraded but not all. The US nuclear weapon modernization program requires $1T starting cost (meaning $4T minimum real cost), whilst even the power grid in the major US cities is on the verge of collapsing, not to mention roads, crooked Boeing planes etc. It is so terribly expensive to rule the World, whilst the Moron-in-Chief and his Pompous Maximus and Bull-by-Ton run around threatening Iran and everybody else.

Posted by: Kiza | Jul 18 2019 6:22 utc | 104

@karlof1 102

Sort of both defensive and offensive, altho either way it's a pretty dang offensive act of terrorism, is it not? However, from the fiction i've been reading it could be quite effective. Are we up to date with how effective this weapon actually is around this rotating rock of ours? How many countries have implemented something to try to defend themselves against this kind of act do you think?

Offensively, seems a fairly easy task, am i wrong, might that missile recovered the other day have done the job, with the proper programming?

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Jul 18 2019 7:06 utc | 105

addendum to the above.

I mean your first one, providing defense against them would just be another ploy of the illegal empire, would it not? Further extortion, if you will? Unless i misunderstand your meaning?

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Jul 18 2019 7:12 utc | 106

I don't see China as the same situation as Russia. c1ue @37 < = they are getting closer .. Japan is going to be the big loser i think..
prognosis isn't good.. colonies incapable [vs] current regime in usa, no oppositive leadership or popular independent thought..waiting for war.. by: james @ 39 <=yes, but I have not heard the reasons why the war in your discussion its financial.. the hegemon cannot continue to float the bonds and print the money and buy for free the oil and gas and other stuff.. if it has competition.. economic zionism its called, take no prisoners, allow no competitive of any kind anywhere, destroy all possibility of future competition.. while you can and own everything, control what is cheaper to allow others to operate, in other words total monopoly power over everything.. but I do not think there will be wWIII because 5g ===
Americans are not in control of USA that governs America <= Evelyn @ 41 Why not? I thought America was a self governed democracy in which the USA government did only that which a majority of the people want? Hummm? What distinguishes the 527 salaried, well paid, persons elected to the the USA from Americans? <= the federal reserve and the petrodollar<=the P$ replaces gold as the standard value that backs the USD.. When a nation fails to join the buy and sell in dollars only system, the demand for dollars retracts, fed slows down printing $s, and the war machine cranks up to remedy that slow down Nations not in compliance seem to include Iran, Venezuela, Syria, and now Russia and China..Hence the people in those countries are said by the USA to be the enemy until that condition is fixed by war, regime change, sanctions, something).

Israel is the threat that keeps the oil producers complaint, they either sell their oil in USD and place the excess profit in US debt instruments. .. or the bankers will sic Israel and its allies to swarm them, regime change their leadership, destroy their infra structure and challenge their safety and even existence of their populations. Economic Zionism takes no prisoners, allows no competition, owns or controls everything or <= somebody is about to suffer.
[In USA governed America, Americans are ] ..pacified, mostly by the exhausting effort it takes to make it through the day. It is like we are all "battered wives", unable to even imagine there could be a better way to live. I disagree that peons have it too easy. by: Trailer Trash @ 43 <= just wait till 5g gets to your trailer.. ..
aye, myself, & me @ 47 <=I Agree, in 1913, amendment 16 allowed the bankers to use the USA to force "the Americans the USA governs" to pay the federal reserve and 1913 created the privately owned federal reserve so the bankers could take-in all of that tax money by: aye, myself & me @ 47
@ Anunnaki 48 <=derivatives ain't got nothing to do with it "its the petrodollar system.. and gain in wealth of the private ownership (federal reserve) that takes in all the taxes Americans pay to the USA each year.. A failure of derivatives won't bother the Fed at all, through it will decimate most of Oligarch owned, corporate managed USA. its just that for every loser in a derivative there is a winner.
The Chinese understand that the intention of the [bankers in the] West is [to use the USA to] stop the rise of China and permanently lock it in a secondary role among the global leadership of the United States Empire.

They [the Chinese, as an independent mass of people] refuse to accept that outcome by: Red Ryder @ 51 < maybe, but the government of China is just as a bad as the Government of America (which is the USA), both [governments are driven by people who] want to put 5g into effect so they can control every living being like a rat in a cage. 5g and by people that want to make private profits from the global momentary system (currently the USD is the reserve currency) exert the forces that generate the problems that lead to war..
'If you want to side with the Iranians, be my guest, but you won't use an American bank or do business with the American economy,'" Graham said". by: Harry Law @ 60 <= precisely, exactly!
I recommend any interested reader to read Lindbergh's 1913 "Banking. Currency and the Money Trust". It's freely available on the internet. After Congress passed and Woodrow Wilson signed the Fed Res Act, Lindbergh, Sr. tried in 1916, without success, to impeach Fed Res director Paul Warburg, et al. [His son CAS,Jr did the NY-to-Paris solo flight in 1927. by: chu teh @ 74 <==I can't remember but seems to me the bankers murdered Lindbergh ?
@71 fastfreddy Risqué...lmao I don't see how these sanctions do anything but help the rest of the world decouple their economies from the dollar. by: Hassaan @ 81 <= me either..

American citizen just don't buy tickets to watch the USA play football, but the stadium is standing room only full of federal reserve officials and corporate chieftains clamouring for a piece of the pie.

Posted by: snake | Jul 18 2019 8:57 utc | 107

ted01 #53

Right on ted01, that is my thought exactly. Summer in the USA right now, fire season. I can just imagine what would happen to the land of power lines and pipe lines and air lines if enough effort were to be applied.

This clown cart USA bullying is no longer a workable strategy and they have met their global match. Hopefully they will have enough survival instinct remaining to leave Iran and others in peace.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jul 18 2019 9:53 utc | 108

Again and again and again it comes round to the same inescapable truth. The world's people (7-milliard minus 330 million of them) will know no peace or security until the USA and its cowardly peoples are eliminated. All this continual deflection about perfidious albion this, the the dog's tail that, merkron this, satanyaboo that, anglozio this, bis that, etc., will not and does not deflect people's understanding and conviction about where the root causes of 99.99999 per cent of the world's problem lie and what has to be done. Sooner or lateer, but undeniably. Picture a world where a wand is waved and the USA is treated to its own medicine and vanished. Suddenly. Even just the very daydream of a great expanse of ocean filling the void between the northern Atlantic and the northern Pacific fills one's mind and soul with a sense of bliss. Apologies to Canada, which may be forced to suffer some consequences.

Posted by: Plod | Jul 18 2019 10:18 utc | 110

@108 Mina. Wow! Another 500 troops! On top of the extra 1,000 GIs Trump has already sent!

Hardly a Desert Shield/Desert Sword deployment, which topped out well over 500,000 troops.

You'd almost think that Trump doesn't *fully* understand what he is stumbling into.

Mind you, his go-to advisors are Bolton and Pompeo, with Netanyahu as his Grima Wormtongue. What could possibly go wrong?

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Jul 18 2019 10:44 utc | 111

The comment by NemesisCalling @79 doesn't make any sense. This is why I am always going on about Americans being delusional and being heroes in their own little fictions. Even the supposedly smarter ones maintain self-imposed blinders to reality so that they can tightly hug cherished false narratives about themselves.

Did the American public want NAFTA? No, of course not. Was it dictated to them by their "Democratic™" leaders anyway? Yes, it is a matter of historical fact that NAFTA was shoved down the public's throat against their will.

Did the Chinese people want Xi and Trump's "trade agreement"? No, of course not. Was Xi able to dictate that agreement to them anyway? No, he was not.

And yet Americans try to twist their view of this expression of real democracy (lower case 'd' and no trademark symbol) in China and real dictatorship in America as being the opposite of what it is in reality.

"Derp! The fact that the Chinese people compelled their government to do what the Chinese people wanted it to do is proof that the Chinese government is a dictatorship! Hurr durr! I is so logical!"

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 18 2019 10:46 utc | 112

@111 William Gruff

The comment by NemesisCalling @79 doesn't make any sense. This is why I am always going on about Americans being delusional and being heroes in their own little fictions. Even the supposedly smarter ones maintain self-imposed blinders to reality so that they can tightly hug cherished false narratives about themselves.

Very well said.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 18 2019 11:20 utc | 113

@109 Plod

The very naked truth, unfortunately.

Posted by: Acar Burak | Jul 18 2019 11:24 utc | 114

Iran takes the bait..

Foreign vessel carrying ‘smuggled fuel’ seized in Persian Gulf – Iran’s Revolutionary Guards

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 18 2019 11:58 utc | 115

I don't think the trigger for war with Iran will be the US Navy being "attacked" - it's too obvious as it has happened before (Tonkin Gulf, USS Maine, etc.) and the Iranians will demonstrate restraint until the US provocations are so severe and frequent that no-one can pretend that the US is defending itself. Instead, I suspect that "R2P" will be the excuse as it was in Yugoslavia, Libya, Syria, etc. Reading this article about the Srebrenica "massacre" gives it all away. Expect a few atrocities against the non-Persian communities in Iran, some even self inflicted and "R2P" will be good to go.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jul 18 2019 12:15 utc | 116

Asymmetric Warfare Nonsense

Our leaders are morons and they are all braying about Iran's 'asymmetric warfare capabilities' as if Iran would never dare launch a conventional attack on U.S. forces under any circumstances. When discussing Trump's decision to call off the attack they only talked as if whether or not it was proportionate. Not one commentator or analyst even considered the possibility that Iran would respond in kind.

Again we act as if our only risk as a VBED at a U.S. military base so if Iran responds with an effective attack on our navy or airbase, our fools who call themselves leaders will be stunned.

If Iran can the airspace of the Strait of Hormuz it will become be a war of attrition and the EU and China will get awfully tired of $200 oil. If Iran can produce their own food or get food from Russia they will beat us outright.

Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Jul 18 2019 13:19 utc | 117

Here is another super interesting recent article in UNZ. In depth and long, but worth the read:
Given the timing of the recent events, it is starting to make sense. What’s more cynical is the insidious manner in which the whole thing has taken shape in the last 60 years.
Black is white, and white is black.
Posted by: Uncle Jon | Jul 17 2019 23:23 utc | 70

Interesting if you connect that Iraqi intelligence report with the Kuwaiti comments you made above, and the suggestions of Prof Marandi.

In the scenario Prof Marandi describes, one of the first things that would happen would be that the whole muslim world will probably be united in demanding non-Saudi custodianship of Mecca, and with that the House of Saud is invalidated at a single stroke!

What happens then? Combine that with increasing Arab opposition to the Saudi support for terrorism and jihadism. Would Sunnis accommodate under Iranian/Shiite leadership to avoid supporting further Saudi mis-leadership?


Also regarding the Iraqi report: I was always wondering whether there is any version around in the original Arabic (whether from the Americans or more likely from other original copies of the report), and whether any Arabic speakers have analysed it (eg authenticity, discussion of supporting documentation, accuracy or otherwise of the English translation, etc). As a minimum, I would expect flaws in the translation as a matter of course. There are two reports (Part I and Part II) on Global Research about this from a few years ago (about 2011 or something?), one about Wahabism, the other about the less-known sect that Wahab came from in the former Ottoman empire (mainly Turkey but including all the other countries in the region), which was also a crypto-j__ish construct. Furthermore the "secularism" that dominated Turkey in the previous century was directly linked to that sect, and it's religious-based desire to destroy Islam from within - so it comes back again to Erdogan. There is a wealth of interesting questions in all this, and I can recommend reading BOTH the Global Research articles in parallel, as they are two sides of the same coin (sorry for the lack of links but search is your friend).

Posted by: BM | Jul 18 2019 13:58 utc | 118

War appears inevitable! Far too many on various sides in positions of power have been steering for this and consider this to be a definite "go time".
Iran may have readied for this and have also come to the conclusion that a war is coming but it still hasn't made the decision to cross the Rubicon. Their country and people will be forever scarred by a war even if they can provide a best case scenario through to the end of conflict.
Those whom want the war against Iran however will remain unscathed and be richly rewarded.
This jockeying of escalations to provide a more moral justification to start the conflict has many interested parties making sparks in the powder room. That this can only hasten a US downfall although making everyone on the planet suffer may be a necessary sacrifice! Hopefully what rises from the ashes will be a better world!

Posted by: PleaseBeleafMe | Jul 18 2019 14:10 utc | 119

@ Ghost SHIT | Jul 18 2019 12:15 utc

For sick Serbian genocidal cowards like you killing 8,000 people in cold blood is OK, what a sick israhell wannabes.

Posted by: ex-SA | Jul 18 2019 14:31 utc | 120

Anyone trying to figure MT Riah and watching Hormuz

has some interesting background if you scroll through, it was Iraq chartered via mysterious UAE company.

Watching Gas Courage tanker following unusual trajectory in Hormuz, and noticed it mentioned doing same further north previously per that twitter site

UK owned and testing Iran ? Seems in Iranian waters now. Maybe thay info is outdated and it has changed hands. You'll find it live on marine traffic.

A lot of speculation, but for those who like to follow these details.

Posted by: gzon | Jul 18 2019 15:01 utc | 121

Someone said that Rand Paul being tapped to act as a go-between is "the only ray of hope" or something to that effect. But I wonder, is that what it is or just another symptom of Trump's schizophrenia. It is clear he does not want war, because he wants to get reelected and is barely intelligent enough to realize that he got elected on an anti-war platform. But then why on Earth does he appoint the most hawkish morons to posts such as secretary of state and national security advisor? Is the strength of the Jewish lobby really that strong that it leaves him no choice??

Posted by: Nuff Sed | Jul 18 2019 15:19 utc | 122

@120 ex-SA.. that is a weird comment from you.. why the hostility toward ghostship? he is just articulating what he thinks will happen and using examples... how do you go from that to thinking he is responsible for the examples in real life?

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2019 15:41 utc | 123

Posted by: gzon | Jul 18 2019 15:01 utc | 122
(Iran nabs tanker)

I heard radio news report circa 8 hours ago that the tanker in distress which Iran assisted, has now been taken hostage by Iran. I watched the late TV news-in-brief 5 hours later from the same source and Iran wasn't mentioned.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 18 2019 15:46 utc | 124

The Iranian Supreme National Security Council (which is the body in charge of making foreign policy, not Zarif's State Department, thank God) should let the US know that it should think again about being the policeman of the Persian Gulf, because as far as Iran is concerned, the United States declared war on Iran many years ago when it boycotted Iran's central bank - an undisputed act of war. Either that, or to ask them, pretty please with sugar on top, to bring *all* their aircraft carriers into our waters so that they can all be sunk together once and for all and so that the world can be done with the evil bastages.

Posted by: Nuff Sed | Jul 18 2019 15:55 utc | 125

Three reasons why I still think major war is unlikely: 1) If it comes to war Trump will not be re-elected because there will be no winner even if Trump launches a genocidal war against Iran; 2) the military has always balked in the past and will likely balk again; 3) a war with Iran is bad for bidness and the corporate sector won't want it--what they want is the "threat" of war and empty posturing--that's all they ever want.

Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Jul 18 2019 15:56 utc | 126

@dltravers (100) You are correct in asserting that the concept of mutually assured destruction (MAD) was first imagined with regard to nuclear war. However, parties to a conflict have always considered the costs and benefits of going to war. It has been an essential component of decision making since the beginning of humans on the earth. This is of course true with regard to Iran vs the U.S. The costs of war to both parties, the entire Middle East and the world economy would massively outweigh the benefits. Any rational person would understand this and eschew a military path. The big question is whether the people making the decisions are indeed rational. On the U.S. side, there is reason to be dubious.

Posted by: Rob | Jul 18 2019 16:14 utc | 127

Coming late to the party, a few observations;
snake @ 13.. Yep!

CI eh? @ 14..Yes!!

SD @ 36.., and ,many other good comments, but for me, I STILL believe all this is all war theater.. BIG organized money is capturing Govts. around the globe. They don't want this process to end.

Having said that, TT's responce to SD's post @ 43 resonates with me;

"Summer Diaz,
We the People will not reign in Our Dear Leaders. A decade ago the financial system was at the edge of collapse. Congress voted to save the banks and screw everybody else. MILLIONS lost their homes, simply by "following the rules". Surely that should be enough to stir up anger and resentment? But not a single torch was lit. No pitchforks were seen anywhere. Even today the number of people living under bridges is staggering, and no one seems to notice very much."

Posted by: ben | Jul 18 2019 16:23 utc | 128

aye, myself & me @105--

Iran, Russia, Cuba, and China have perhaps the best defense against cyber attacks as they've weaned their systems from US soft and hardware that contain the convenient pathways to conduct such attacks like the one Venezuela suffered but finally recovered from thanks to Russian & Chinese specialists and hardware. IMO, since the vast majority of the planet uses US soft and hardware, they are extremely vulnerable to such cyberattacks. The attraction of Chinese built systems is their claims to being impenetrable, which is why the Outlaw US Empire is blacklisting them. The longstanding sordid relationship between Silicon Valley and CIA/NSA is very well known, and they enjoyed a global monopoly until very recently--a monopoly Russia and China have made no secret of their attempt to break. One could use US products and be safe--IF--the resulting system is completely sealed such that nothing can gain entry, which is likely what the Iranians have done with their air defense network to make it secure from cyberattacks.

Outlaw US Empire systems are as vulnerable as the equipment used, although it's likely that some networks are completely closed like that for the ground based component of the Nuclear Triad. But as observed, planes and ships are very open and vulnerable to both Russian and Chinese EW systems, and Iranian cyber expertise has also been displayed in several instances. How much EW deflection by Syria as opposed to Russia of the cruise missile attack launched by Trump after the false flag gas attack is unknown, but I suspect they have some claims to that very impressive success. Those systems and techniques are likely shared with Iran, which led me to assess their overall air defense network as being far superior to that of the Outlaw US Empire, with capabilities that have yet to be revealed. And what's vulnerable for the Empire is the same for NATO--one excellent reason why Turkey wanted S-400 and will likely acquire SU-35s since US Law requires Trump to sanction Turkey for buying Russian weapon systems.

You'll have noted EU nations--not even UK--aren't shutting Chinese electronics/Computer Information System manufacturers out of their markets like the Outlaw US Empire as they see the value in protected systems. Trump's targeting EU with Trade War has sent a very important message that EU cannot count on the Outlaw US Empire for its defense, and the same goes for the rest of the world. Although not entirely compatible with our topic, Pepe Escobar's latest detailing of the Outlaw US Empire/China Trade War does provide some keen insights. It's Janos Kornai who authored the latest "outburst" of Western ignorance Pepe links to in his opening paragraph which you might find behind a paywall. The "Open Letter" Pepe again links to is definitely behind a paywall and can be found here. The totally incorrect historical summation/assessment offered by both is another glaring example of what Pepe describes in his opening paragraph and has become a very unfortunate theme aped within Outlaw US Empire strategic planning documents such as the National Defense Strategy. As you might know, underestimating/misconstruing your adversary is a sure recipe for failure in your endeavor. As such, believing one's own propaganda becomes one of the Empire's greatest weaknesses, and one it seems incapable of correcting.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 16:26 utc | 129

Among many other things, such a naval coalition would likely block the North–South Corridor. India, which is the main potential beneficiary of the North–South Corridor, would be wise to use its naval power to show the world that it intends to protect its economic interests in the India–Iran sea route. Even though India’s navy is not very big (1 aircraft carrier, 11 destroyers, 13 frigates, 22 corvettes, 1 nuclear attack submarine, and 14 conventional attack submarines), the mere act of India flexing its muscles would provide a significant new deterrent to the Empire’s plans of war on Iran.

Posted by: S | Jul 18 2019 16:34 utc | 130

I wrote this up in an earlier thread, but I think it is interesting to both put numbers on just what China has accomplished economically, and to understand better fraud/corruption in China in context:

While no one credible can fault China's economic performance - rising from 7.7% of US GDP to near parity in 30-ish years, nonetheless there is still tremendous corruption and waste.
The difference is that China's GDP grew from $312B to $12.2T - which translates to 11.7% compound annual growth rate (CAGR) generated $86.8T of extra growth vs. a growth rate like India's (6.5% CAGR) or $98.0T vs the US (4.89% CAGR).
The extra growth is the sum of all annual difference between China's actual GDP vs. if China had grown at either of the above rates.
$86 trillion to $98 trillion of additional economic activity! That pays for all of the CCP billionaires, and then some.
If we look at population rates as a proxy for "automatic" growth, the picture is even uglier (for the US and India).
China's compound annual population growth from 1984 to 2018 is 0.878% vs. 1.7% (India) and 0.950% (US). Subtracting this from the actual growth rates - i.e. we only look at per person growth rates - China nets 10.86% CAGR vs. 4.8% (India and 3.94% (US).
The total additional growth China experienced, with population growth separated, is $98.5 trillion to $102.8 trillion vs India and US growth rates.
Obviously India is a prime negative example: 3rd world country with first world growth rates, net population, but the point is simply to put in numbers just how much China has grown under the leadership of the CCP.
The question I have is: if waste in the context of $100 trillion of extra growth is understandable, the problem is that China growing at 6%-ish annual growth means a lot less relative growth even if absolute growth =$750B+ a year. Corruption is one of the outcomes of waste: is tolerable if to overall bottom line is increasing enough but not necessarily, if not (obviously there are countries that don't agree...). Now that this is less true, how to rein in 30+ years of Silicon Valley on steroids growth at all costs culture?

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 18 2019 16:36 utc | 131

@ karlof1 who wrote
As you might know, underestimating/misconstruing your adversary is a sure recipe for failure in your endeavor. As such, believing one's own propaganda becomes one of the Empire's greatest weaknesses, and one it seems incapable of correcting.

As you know, most history is written by the winners and until now the West has "never" lost. You and I know that the cancer of private finance is at the core of it all but many still are ignorant and if the elite can fake a "majority" for their ongoing perfidy the band will keep playing.....

I am frankly encouraged that the current face of empire is doing a stellar job of showing its true visage.....which is necessary for it to be rejected by the non-zombie portion of humanity

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 18 2019 16:44 utc | 132

Note the above economic picture with regards to the present China demographic bulge: China has a large bulge in the 25 to 34 age range.
These people, disproportionately men, have experienced an average compound annual economic growth of 11.7% per year for their entire lives from birth. This bulge is 8.9% men and 8.3% women, meaning the bulge is 17.2% of China's population. To put this in perspective: the 35-44 cohort in the US (part of the baby boomers), was 8.1% men and 8.0% women.
Are they really willing or able to stand a serious economic recession?
A comparable American has gone through 2 major busts: Y2K and GFC. Other East Asians have either been on a slow burn down (Japan) or have had even worse recessions (South Korea, etc).
The notion that this group has the patriotic fervor, or stamina, or capability, or experience or whatever to accept a major economic recession without anger/violence seems highly speculative.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 18 2019 16:49 utc | 133

@ c1ue with the ongoing China bashing

Please provide us with some examples of outright racism spewing from the mouths of its leadership like is currently occurring in the West. I continue to read of China prosecuting and killing corrupt politicians. Can you provide similar examples in the West, say from the 2008 private banking rape of America?

Oh, thats right, it was all legal....excuse me

Perhaps your arguments are being read by jaundiced you get paid well?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 18 2019 17:10 utc | 134

c!ue @138--

The BIG difference between China and "West" is its central bank doesn't blow financial bubbles that are meant to eventually burst. Plus, it has an excellent industrial policy and specific future plans/templates that the USA has never employed on a national scale, not even during FDR's New Deal experiments. Russia has also retained similar planning that its currently implementing via its National Plan as Putin calls it. IMO, closing the door to China provided it with a benefit it couldn't generate on its own and is proving to be a strategic disaster for the Outlaw US Empire as Pepe points out:

"What may actually happen in terms of a US-China 'decoupling' is what Beijing is already, actively working on: extending trade partnerships with the EU and across the Global South.

"And that will lead, according to Li, to the Chinese leadership offering deeper and wider market access to its partners. This will soon be the case with the EU, as discussed in Brussels in the spring." [My Emphasis]

Pepe's summation points to the insularity of the onset of the China-centric economy thanks to its enforced ignorance of Chicago School Junk Economics:

"China’s trade with Belt and Road-linked nations reached $617.5 billion in the first half of 2019 – up 9.7% year-on-year and outpacing the growth rate of China’s total trade.

"Chinese scholar Wang Jisi was right from the start when he singled out Belt and Road as a 'strategic necessity' to counter Barack Obama’s now-defunct 'pivot to Asia'.

"So now it’s time for Western intellectuals to engage on a freak-out: as it stands, Belt and Road is the new Frankenstein."

And unlike the villagers in the movie, the world's commonfolk all stand to benefit from the Chinese BRI Win-Win Frankenstein.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 17:12 utc | 135

It's shenanigans time again in the Strait of Hormuz!

Three cheers and more to the professor! So much sense there... He should be Iran's FM instead of Drew-College, San-Francisco-State, and Korbel-School-of-International-Studies educated Zarif.

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Jul 18 2019 17:33 utc | 136

Re karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 17:12 utc | 140

hello . . . who controls China's Central Bank? Is it privately or state owned? In other words, does China pay interest on a national debt to private bankers?

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 18 2019 18:01 utc | 137

Re karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 17:12 utc | 140

hello . . . who controls China's Central Bank? Is it privately or state owned? In other words, does China pay interest on a national debt to private bankers?

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 18 2019 18:01 utc | 138

apologies for duplicate posting, issues with service here

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 18 2019 18:02 utc | 139

Perimetr @143--

State owned, a point at issue during the trade negotiations and mentioned in the Politburo's White Paper issued at end of May. (Doc format)

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 18:19 utc | 140

@ Perimetr with the question to karlof1 about private/public China banking

I just looked a bit and China does have small World Bank loans but no IMF ones to my knowledge. Otherwise China has a public Central bank which is why we are in WWIII

The West with its private banking system has been fighting public banking from China, Iran and others for decades and now they are losing that war because it keeps getting clearer how socially dysfunctional it is to have an elite cult who are un-named running global private banking of the West.

But real soon now c1ue is going to come entirely out of the closet and start providing us with reams of data showing how the jackboot of global private finance is good for humanity...../snark

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 18 2019 18:23 utc | 141

@psychohistorian #139
I am confused as to why you think what I posted is China bashing. Does not the post show the amazing job China has accomplished in growing at more than twice the rate of India?
I merely point out that this success does not necessarily translate into tolerance, should the ongoing generational economic miracle turn into a bust.
As for racism: Chinese are plenty racist, as are Japanese. Be a Filipino, Vietnamese, Korean or Japanese in mainland China and see.
Their racism is simply different.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 18 2019 18:43 utc | 142

@karlof1 #140
Well, I don't think that is true: that the Chinese central bank doesn't blow financial bubbles. Housing is absolutely an enormous bubble in China. The same could be said for any number of verticals dominated by Chinese state owned enterprises.
The big difference, IMO, is that China's high growth rate means even large sized bubbles can be absorbed more easily as the overall economy grows in the double digits. Again, don't take this to mean that I am negatively viewing the job China and its economic managers have done.
What is absolutely true is that the Chinese leadership has aimed for real growth as opposed to self enrichment through financialization.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 18 2019 18:46 utc | 143

@psychohistorian #147
I really don't know what your problem is. Maybe you're having a bad day.
Your reading comprehension is certainly suffering.
I have never, ever been a proponent of global finance, banksters, etc.
On the other hand, I do believe in at least trying to look at objective information rather than relying on belief and rumors.
In fact, if you have been paying attention, I am actually ethnically Chinese and have noted so in past MoA posts.
I speak Mandarin and have visited China many, many times although I was born in the US.
Thus my commentary on Chinese behavior is based on real world, first hand experiences. Are yours?
Secondly, the resort to ad hominem attacks is almost universally the province of the weak minded with poor reasoning and no supporting data.
Glad to see that pattern is still holding true.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 18 2019 18:53 utc | 144

dh @ 25
"Clearly a transparent attempt to form an 'international coalition'. It's hard to see any of the Gulf states falling for it until the Europeans do. Which means France and the UK of course. Could Jeremy or Boris be that stupid? Wish I knew."

Yes they could! You can almost go to the bank on it. They are both drips of the 1st water. Boris is half USAmerican. Hunt is misspelt.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jul 18 2019 19:33 utc | 145

Warning: Meta-post follows.

Fast food burger restaurants have procedures for assembling their burgers. These procedures are developed at corporate offices and employees are trained to follow the procedures. The procedures cover everything including how to fold the paper wrappers around the hamburgers.

The same basic process of developing procedures and handing them down to the workforce applies to professional Internet trolling. There are formal procedures that the troll farm employee is expected to follow in order to insert the narratives he is paid to promote into online forums. These procedures are developed by psychologists and marketing experts.

The professional troll, if paid to denigrate some personality of global note, let's say Russia's president, usually cannot just join a discussion and start slandering the target from a cold start. The troll is expected to first observe attitudes towards the target in the forum. If the overall attitude towards the target appears to be positive, then the troll must next attempt to develop some credibility within the forum by appearing to be a supporter of the target individual or target narrative.

Consider in the case of targeting the idea of global warming the troll will first establish a persona of someone deeply respectful of hard science, or even a scientists himself, or in the case of Russia's president they will affect the appearance of a Putin groupie. They will carefully lead their posts with positive-sounding statements about the target to get past forum readers' anti-bullshit shielding, and then deliver their narrative payloads. As a dramatically oversimplified example, our professional troll might lead in with "What a swell guy Putin is! You know he really loves puppy dogs? He set up this shelter in Moscow for abandoned dogs. Isn't that awesome?"

After getting readers to nod along in agreement, our professional troll will then follow up with "But I don't think that guy Boris Nemtsov really deserved to be murdered by Putin." or "But it was still wrong for Putin to shoot down that airliner."

Other equally formulaic trolling techniques exist, such as the troll attempting to sound like he very much supports the primary concerns in the forum, but with over-the-top antisemitic spin or with flat Earth theory. This is to try and associate legitimate ideas with lunacy.

There are professional trolls in this forum. It would be impossible for b's best efforts to keep them out. It may not even be the best idea to banish trolls in any case, so long as the readers have identified them, as it can be quite informative to know what narratives the Atlantic Council, or Boeing, or the US State Department are interested in trying to spin. The important thing is just to learn to spot these techniques so that you can guard yourself against their narrative cancer and also use them to gain insight into what the global elites are scheming.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 18 2019 19:54 utc | 146

Addendum to my post @154 above:

The false equivalency is another hugely popular formulaic trolling technique.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 18 2019 20:00 utc | 147

Formerly T-Bear | Jul 17 2019 21:54 utc | 62

Look at those the U.S. has made enemy: Hitler and National Socialism; Mussolini and Fascism; Stalin and State Authoritarianism; Franco and Military Repression;

When was the USA ever an enemy of Franco? He was "a good supported of NATO against the Evil USSR". Or so I was assured during my National Service.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Jul 18 2019 20:12 utc | 148

@karlof1 133

Thank you much for your reply, however, i'm afraid you've missed my point entirely. Were EMPs to be created a mile or two above us it wouldn't kill anybody, but within that instance humanity beneath the explosion(s) would be transported a hundred and sixty years to the past. There would be no computers whatsoever, because there'd be nearly zero electricity. Gas generators would be in huge demand, until the fuel runs out.

That is what i'm asking about. How much have outer countries hardened their electrical grids to withstand such an attack. I'm pretty sure the us of a is still quite vulnerable to such an attack.

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Jul 18 2019 20:34 utc | 149

Trump escalate again, by attacking an iranian drone on international water

Posted by: Zanon | Jul 18 2019 20:57 utc | 150

@181 reante - singling out 4 women, one of who was born in somalia and telling them to go back and fix the problems where they came from, followed by a trump north carolina gathering of supporters who chanted 'send her back' is indeed racist and an extremely hostile attitude to cultivate... so, stop with the bullshit..

really, i am sure if somalia could send the fucking usa military back to the usa, it would be the best thing to happen to somalia..

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2019 21:28 utc | 152

William Gruff
I do find it beneficial to keep "the trolls" in the mix as long as the signal:noise ratio remains 4:1 or higher, as it does here at MoA. The honest commenting here make the disingenuous standout in a way that is rare in other such it gives insight into the trolling mind and the techniques used by those whose goal it is to disrupt or spread disinformation.

Know your enemy and know yourself, find naught in fear for 100 battles. Know yourself but not your enemy, find level of loss and victory. Know not thy enemy nor yourself, wallow in defeat every time...Sun Tzu

Posted by: Hassaan | Jul 18 2019 21:42 utc | 153

@ William Gruff 154
There are professional trolls in this forum. It would be impossible for b's best efforts to keep them out. It may not even be the best idea to banish trolls in any case, so long as the readers have identified them, as it can be quite informative to know what narratives the Atlantic Council, or Boeing, or the US State Department are interested in trying to spin. The important thing is just to learn to spot these techniques so that you can guard yourself against their narrative cancer and also use them to gain insight into what the global elites are scheming.

This was satire, wasn't it mr. Gruff, especially what's in bold? I'm hoping so, because you're one of the ones i stop and read every time. Many others tho, what i love about this site is not only b's insightful news, but even more importantly the vast knowledge of the barflies that support this place! The comment section for this site blows away any other i've looked at previously, however, for the trolls there's nothing you can do, nor in my belief, should do. Everyone has an opinion and anyone should be able to express it, where ever they wish.

Ever heard of an EMP mr. Gruff? Know what kind of damage they can inflict? They could end any conversation here and leave it on a very local basis for many decades to come. Not trolling, but i'm wondering if to anyone's knowledge here, where i might be directed to a conversation on this site, if there ever was one? B?

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Jul 18 2019 21:51 utc | 154

aye, myself & me @157--

Well, now that you've explained what you actually meant--an EMP--the answer's much easier--very few systems are likely shielded; those that are being the most strategic. Hypothetically, that's why NORAD's under Cheyanne Mountain, while Russia and China likely have similar protections.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 22:09 utc | 155

@ c1ue with the response.

I have met a number of folks who came here from China with a chip on their shoulder about their mother country because of they or their families treatment during Mao days. I can only assume from your comments that you are one of those.

You write on one hand that you are against financialization but have zero appreciation for what it takes to stand up to centuries of such by your mother country. WWIII is between inheritance versus merit and you keep digging at the merit attempt....which means you are supporting the ongoing existence of the inheritance meme....I believe it is an existential choice you soon will have to make.

Do Chia leaders go around spouting their racism like in the West? Do you not believe that you are more discriminated against in the West than what occurs in the East?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 18 2019 22:16 utc | 156


You're seriously outranked by the CCP's Politburo and a slew of other sources. I suggest you fold as the pot's too rich for you and the level of play well beyond your pay-scale.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 22:21 utc | 157

Re: aye, myself & me @157 and karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 22:09 utc | 165

I have spent a number of months researching a paper on EMP/HEMP (high-altitude EMP); I made a presentation at the UN in April on the subject.

One very important conclusion I have come to is that the E1 component of HEMP will not only destroy or disable the backup power and emergency power systems at a nuclear reactor, but it will do the same to the emergency cooling systems. Not only do the control panels in a reactor have very vulnerable SCADA control units, but all the various components in the emergency cooling system contain and depend upon integrated circuits (microchips) that will be disabled and destroyed by HEMP. Also the communication systems within the plant, as well as outside the plant, will be disabled, preventing any sort of effective communication from the control room to engineers frantically trying to hotwire the pumps, pressure and temperature sensors, frozen valves, water supply systems, emergency diesel generators, etc in the 30 minutes they will have to get cooling water running through the reactor before it begins to melt down. It would be an impossible task (even the schematics for the plant are stored electronically).

One HEMP could easily cause 20 to 30 nuclear power plants to melt down simultaneously in the US; one HEMP over France could cause 60 nuclear power plants to melt down. All the spent fuel pools located at these reactors (outside primary containment) would then boil off and the spent fuel, once exposed to steam and air, would rupture or ignite, releasing vast quantities of radiation. One spent fuel pool in the US typically has more cesium137 in it that was released by all atmospheric nuclear weapon tests combined.

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 18 2019 22:45 utc | 158

Perimetr @169--

Thanks for that invaluable contribution. Shows how poorly versed I'm on that subject. So, there's no way to shield facilities--none whatsoever?

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 22:58 utc | 159

@karlof1 165

Well, now that you've explained what you actually meant--an EMP--the answer's much easier--very few systems are likely shielded; those that are being the most strategic. Hypothetically, that's why NORAD's under Cheyanne Mountain, while Russia and China likely have similar protections.

Thank you much again for your reply. NORAD and military installations elsewhere will be protected, you mention the other super powers and i can agree with them readily, but how many other nations to you suppose have looked at this issue and have implemented shielding too?

A second related question to an EMP, if you will is it's obvious one can't explode a nuclear device in the ground, or on the ground, without seismic activity being observed, correct? What if said nuclear device was exploded a mile or two over head, would anyone know? Could a nation be completely defeated, without anyone outside that country, knowing it for an indeterminate amount of time?

If you wanna bring a nation to its knees immediately EMPs are the way to go. They may still have military ops up and running, however any defensive effort for their country, will be the least of their overwhelming problems.

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Jul 18 2019 23:07 utc | 160

Re karlof1 | Jul 18 2019 22:58 utc | 170

According to Dr. William Radasky of the Metatech Corp (Radasky has written 540 papers on EMP and has written guidelines for it for the US DOD), there are a number of technological fixes that can be taken, including adding a great deal of shielding and filters to all lines coming into the plants. I think these could be used to attenuate some of the damage, but unless you design a facility from the ground up, and harden all the components that are used to construct the facility, I personally don't think it is possible to prevent a great deal of damage. And of course, none of the US reactors were designed that way at all. In fact, the NRC has used an old 1982 study to "prove" that the reactors are "safe" from EMP. God forbid the utilities would have to spend any money to address this problem. You can use this link to find a list of many of the Metatech studies, scroll to the bottom of the page to find them

One thing I have learned is that the DOD takes this very seriously; their concern, i think, has been for their command and control systems. They reportedly have software that predicts an area of at least 9200 square miles would have all integrated circuits DESTROYED by a HEMP that took place above it. Of course, there is no access to this software.

The E3 component of HEMP can also destroy the grid by destroying many or most of the 500 KV large transformers (LPTs), which make up the most important part of the US electrical distribution system (also the larger 765 KV transformers, too, which like the 500 KV transformers are quite vulnerable to E3). It takes 2-3 years to manufacture and make operational replacements for these LPTs (the US only makes 15% of them, most come from Japan, I think, definitely overseas), so the grid would be down for years. Since the spent fuel pools MUST have offsite power to run, and since NONE of them are wired to accept power from a backup generator, they would have to be constantly refilled by diesel pumps putting water back into them. Seems unlikely if no fuel supplies would be available, and since nuclear power plants are only required to keep one weeks worth of diesel fuel on site. The LPTs can actually be protected with filter mechanisms; not cheap but possible. But the electric utilities have blocked all efforts to have such filters installed.

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 18 2019 23:15 utc | 161

Perimetr @169--

Thanks Perimetr, that's pretty much what i was aiming at, but even countries with no nuclear facilities would still be screwed for a long time to come.

Imagine taking humanity back a hundred and sixty years, in an instance? Chilling.

Posted by: aye, myself & me | Jul 18 2019 23:16 utc | 162

karlof @170: What you want is a Faraday cage, probably a really good one for a nuke generated EMP.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 18 2019 23:19 utc | 163

@172 reante... you're really digging a hole for yourself and this is my last comment to you.. cheerio..

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2019 23:23 utc | 164

that's what I thought, james. another accusation with zero substance to back. You run along now little boy.

Posted by: reamte | Jul 18 2019 23:32 utc | 165

@ 158: old saying; "If the shoe fits, wear it."

Posted by: ben | Jul 18 2019 23:59 utc | 166

Re Bemildred | Jul 18 2019 23:19 utc | 175

A Faraday cage can work for something small; there are trucks the DOD has designed to be self-contained, which are sealed to the same degree that a Faraday cage could be sealed. But you can't do that with a power plant, with all the lines coming in an out of it. Plus E3 travels through the ground and will come in through the floor. E1 will be induced in all conductors, even a short antenna or length of wire will have current induced into it (yes, many variables here, but maybe not so much for power lines miles long). The energy bands shown in the Metatech diagrams indicated central fields of 50,000 volts/meter. Most electronic devices operate at a few volts. SCADA control units can be disabled at 1000 volts and are only rated to 8000 volts, SCADA control units are ubiquitous, used in all types of operating systems that control all types of critical infrastructure, everything from water supply, air traffic control, petroleum refining and distribution, trucking, etc etc etc. You fry all the integrated circuits and nothing works, you can't pump water, fuel, run refrigeration, communication, and emergency cooling systems.

Posted by: Perimetr | Jul 19 2019 0:13 utc | 167

Perimetr @180: I think you know a lot more than I do about it, I just know that's your best bet so to speak. I quite agree the result will be dramatic whatever one might do individually, as there is all kinds of stuff that is not going to be shielded. I expect to be on my own if that happens, more or less, for a long time.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 19 2019 0:27 utc | 168

Perimetr @61: PS you will note however that a tinfoil hat is precisely a Faraday cage, and so not so dumb after all. Maybe we can all wear our own Faraday Hats when 5G gets rolled out.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 19 2019 0:29 utc | 169

>>>>> ex-SA | Jul 18 2019 14:31 utc | 120

I assume that you use the name ex-SA to describe yourself as an ex-member of the Sturmabteilung which would mean you self-identify as a real honest-to-goodness Nazi. As a Nazi, how does it feel to know that the untermenschen Slavs ripped the guts out of the Nazi war machine and stuck it to that Austrian fuckwit, Adolph Hitler.

For sick Serbian genocidal cowards like you killing 8,000 people in cold blood is OK, what a sick israhell wannabes.

I'm not Serbian, but it's debatable whether what happened at Srebenica really was genocide as ordained in the Washington narrative. Like much of the crap that comes out of Washington, that narrative is built on layer-upon-layer of lies and falsehoods.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Jul 19 2019 0:42 utc | 170

@ Perimetr with the chilling science about HEMP

Ignorance can be bliss but I passed through that door long ago....thanks.

Your support for the reality of MAD is useful to the public because it shows how much BS is behind the bullying we are watching.

Humanity is facing an existential moment and I hope we look to the future and not to the past for answers on how to get along together without triggering MAD

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 19 2019 1:16 utc | 171

@psychohistorian #167
When in a hole, stop digging.
Obviously in your mind, racism and economics matter in some way.
Slavery in the South was an immensely economically profitable business. It doesn't change the fact that it is a terrible practice.
Nor does virtuous behavior equate to economic prosperity. There are few areas as generically politically correct as the EU, yet most of that polity has not been doing well for a long time.
In any case, you continue to fail to show specific examples of how I am supposedly degrading or belittling China.
Nor have you responded as to whether your beliefs are based on reality or theory.
In any case, your past commentary contributed very little to my understanding or learning, and this latest bout does nothing more than land you in my ignore list: reserved for those who have neither erudition or experience.

Posted by: C1ue | Jul 19 2019 1:27 utc | 172

milomilo, you talking about me and c1ue?

what's with you guys man? a stranger with fresh ideas and poor social graces can't walk into a bar anymore without a handful of fuckin regulars getting all insecure and paranoid about it, like I'm some walking psyop? Jesus, get yourselves together.

Answer me this: why would an intelligence service hire me to say what I've been saying? Cui Bono from my shit I ask you?

My hope, obviously, is that you do. Service Above Self, LOL.


Posted by: reamte | Jul 19 2019 3:42 utc | 173

|@ foolisholdman | Jul 18 2019 20:12 utc | 156

Hey! oldfellaonsmartiphone, in case you missed it, all those International Brigades were fighting AGAINST Generalissimo Franco and were supported by large fractions of the populations they originated from, e.g. Britain, Ireland, U.S.of A., and others. You may not have noticed that the term was 'enemies', not declared war upon. That might have confounded you a bit.

Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Jul 19 2019 8:46 utc | 174

william gruff @#154

really interesting post

as a person who reads the posts and comments accordingly in an honest manner i have no idea who the trolls are

i hate asking this but who should i avoid reading on here?

Posted by: m | Jul 19 2019 14:04 utc | 175

@aye, myself & me #171
High altitude nuclear explosions are easily detectable - not only is there a light flare and sound wave, there is radiation release.
As for shielding - shielding isn't the only option. The actual damage to utility grids and other electronic systems is that the electromagnetic (hereafter EM) surge causes a current surge in wiring; strength decreases with distance from the explosion. The cause doesn't have to be a nuclear explosion - a really large solar flare can do the same. The strongest known such event was the Carrington event in 1859. Telegraph communications were shut down or disrupted over a wide area of the entire planet.
Note, however, that the problems arise with expected vs. actual current going through wires. During the Carrington event, some telegraph operators discovered a workaround: unplug the battery normally used to power the telegraph and just rely on the EM storm induced current.
So one method to handle EM interference is to have the wiring with a wide tolerance/safety margin.
Shielding involves creating an EM barrier - a Faraday cage is one way, but even the proverbial tin foil insulation has an effect.
Here is a report on HEMP prepared for Oak Ridge Laboratory - includes a lot of really detailed info on HEMP and shielding options as well as an assessment of HEMP impact on the US electrical grid.
Quick summary: it would be bad. It isn't just the electrical grid itself - transformers from large primary (very hard to replace) to small local (neighborhood) likely to fail, but the control systems (PLCs, control circuits, etc) and communications systems.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 19 2019 14:33 utc | 176

@reante #186
I can't really say whether the former slaves, collectively, truly preferred being slaves to being sharecroppers.
From a management perspective, however, the transition was - eventually - a clear win. I've seen some studies which looked at US Census detailed data. The studies looked at how wealthy Southerners who were severely economically hurt by the Civil War and aftereffects; summary is that they largely recovered to their former position in a generation.
Or in other words, their economic position was an outcome from their social status, not the other way around. Given time, the losses from the freeing up of slaves and concomitant destruction or confiscation of their other property was made up.
Dr. Michael Hudson has spoken extensively about how the US has pioneered "Super Imperialism": rather than take physical possession of overseas colonies, it uses finance and debt to extract value.

Posted by: c1ue | Jul 19 2019 14:42 utc | 177

Bemildred @169,

No, it's an antenna.

Posted by: Jonathan | Jul 20 2019 2:24 utc | 178

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