Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 23, 2019

The MoA Week In Review - OT 2019-35

Last week's posts at Moon of Alabama:

The week was monothematic with a drama in the White House over the threat of a shooting war with Iran playing out. According to the Wall Street Journal it was General Dunford who saved the day:

While many of Mr. Trump’s top advisers backed a more aggressive set of strike options, Marine Gen. Joe Dunford, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, struck a more wary note, which had an outsize influence on the president.

Some predicted that:

Kim Dotcom @KimDotcom - 5:35 utc - 21 Jun 2019

Trump: Attack Iran now! 🤬
General: Iran can sink our Carrier strike group in the region. 😬
Trump: What? 😳
General: If we strike Iran now they can retaliate against thousands of US sailors. 😔
Trump: WTF! 😐
General: This isn’t Syria Sir.
Trump: Call it off. 😠

Dunford somehow circumvented Bolton by presenting higher casualty figures he had filtered through a White House lawyer. Unfortunately Dunford's term ends in September. In the end Trump's fear of a larger war was the deciding factor. Tucker Carlson also played a role. His fierce stand against Bolton (vid) may eventually have some effect. But the three Zionist billionaires who are Trump's major campaign donors are all in Bolton's camp. The drama will thus continue.

“I think as far as I can see, it is America, which is making all the provocation,” Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad said Saturday.

A mystery in the drone shoot-down is the role of the P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft that followed the drone. It usually has a crew of 9. But Iran said 35 people were on board and Trump even spoke of 38. What type of plane was this really and what was its task?


Other issues:

On May 25 we wrote about the Boeing 737 NG:

Boeing 737 MAX Crash Reveals Severe Problem With Older Boeing 737 NGs.

Last week the Wall Street Journal was the first mainstream outlet to notice the dangerous issue. It writes that Boeing fears that the public will become too informed about it:

Boeing’s Latest 737 MAX Concern: Pilots’ Physical Strength
Turning manual crank during emergency procedure may be too difficult for some people

There are no plans to restrict certain pilots from getting behind the controls of any 737 models based on their strength, according to people with knowledge of the deliberations. But both Boeing and Federal Aviation Administration leaders are concerned that if discussions of the matter become public they could be overblown or sensationalized, according to industry and government officials familiar with the process.

This weekend the Seattle Times published an excellent insider piece about the development, technical details, and silent changes of the failing MCAS system:

The inside story of MCAS: How Boeing’s 737 MAX system gained power and lost safeguards

While the changes were dramatic, Boeing did not submit documentation of the revised system safety assessment to the FAA.

An FAA spokesman said the safety agency did not require a new system safety analysis because it wasn’t deemed to be critical.
A variety of employees have described internal pressures to advance the MAX to completion, as Boeing hurried to catch up with the hot-selling A320 from rival Airbus.


The White House published its 'peace plan' (pdf) for a Greater Israel that Netanyahoo dictated to the not-so-smart Jared Kushner. The general idea is to bribe the Palestinians into silence. It's amateurish nonsense with zero chance of ever being implemented. Haaretz: Trump's Peace Plan: As Deep as a Beauty Pageant Speech and Twice as Vain.


China's President Xi was on a state visit in North Korea where he was welcomed with a gigantic show. Xi asked North Korea to resume its negotiations with the U.S. Not to be outdone by China, Trump wrote another letter to Kim Jong-Un who characterized it as "excellent".


In case you were concerned about those protrusions on your forehead:

Cell Phones Are Probably Not Making Us Grow Horns - Smithonian Magazine


Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on June 23, 2019 at 13:55 UTC | Permalink

« previous page | next page »

dh 90

Either Centcom or Trump. At the moment I tend slightly more towards Centcom.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 20:24 utc | 101

is cia part of centcom?

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2019 20:25 utc | 102

William Gruff @88
I think you are correct. This trick "worked so well" in Syria, and they tried it again... and failed.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 23 2019 20:28 utc | 103

Peter AU 1 @96

Very true. It is impossible to say with certainty at this point what the empire's intention was. I just wanted to highlight the complicating facts in this issue.

Oh, and by the way, I am a Baconite too. I'm not seeing any terminal flaws in his logic.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2019 20:29 utc | 104

. . .on a lighter note. . .a classic video
re: Israel made us do it, reminds of Flip Wilson -- The Devil Made Me Do It . . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 20:32 utc | 105

Peter AU 1 @96

Very true. At this point we can not say with certainty precisely what the empire's intentions were with this operation. I just wanted to highlight the facts that complicate interpreting it.

BTW, I'm a Baconite too. I cannot find any serious flaws to his logic.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2019 20:33 utc | 106

Melting of Himalayan glaciers has doubled in recent years

A newly comprehensive study shows that melting of Himalayan glaciers caused by rising temperatures has accelerated dramatically since the start of the 21st century.

I suppose I need to adopt a Good Christian attitude to all of this. First of all, none of the people supposedly in trouble are invisible "unborns". Secondly, the lands in question are very, very far away, inhabited by folks with the wrong skin color, and I don't know any of them.

Besides, everybody who matters knows climate change is an invention of AlGore.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Jun 23 2019 20:36 utc | 107

Zachary Smith @107

The biggest impact of the loss of ice cover in the Himalayas will be felt in India.

The city of Chennia in India has now pretty much hit "Day Zero" for water.

To my knowledge this isn't being covered in public discourse, but what happens when huge cities go completely without water?

Keep your eyes on India because it will soon get really scary.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2019 20:44 utc | 108

@101 Either Centcom of about Bolton? I know he isn't supposed to have that kind of authority but if Trump doesn't want to take the blame how about checking on Bolton's contacts at Centcom. Just trying to go beyond speculation here into something tangible. There is a chain of command.

Posted by: dh | Jun 23 2019 20:47 utc | 109

New drone strike on Saudi refinery! BBC news radio 9pm !
Brilliant threads on this subject thank you ‘b’ and all commenters ‘
Vietnam Vet on last thread ... I would love to read your comment daily plus your like thinking freands. We need your inside experience!

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 23 2019 20:51 utc | 110


In fact Uber is involved w facebook in this venture as you probably know.

And FB set this enterprise in Switzerland the ancestral home of opaque and unregulated banking practices surely to evade the wrath of the navy blue suit and black wingtip crowd of traditional financiers.

Sociopolitical thinkers would be wise imho to study the present and future less in terms of archaic statist perpectives and more in terms of the emerging multinational corporate and libertarian strategies which continually extend the free expansion of wealth at the expense of labour.

After all, Marx did not foresee the solution to capitalism in a return to feudalism. Neither should we look backwards for an answer to the problem of inequality posed by globalisation.

Posted by: donkeytale | Jun 23 2019 20:54 utc | 111

@h | Jun 23, 2019 9:26:56 AM | 229

The only body in the U.S. government that makes law is the U.S. Congress. Period. The United Nations has zip, zero, zilch to do with America's lawmaking process. Nothing.

I assume you're American, as you seem to know so little about the Constitution of the United States. Here is paragraph VI.6 of the Constitution:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land

As the United Nations Charter is a ratified treaty, it is the supreme law of the land in the United States. Article 25 of the Charter states that all Security Council resolutions are binding. And UNSC Resolution 2231 binds the JCPOA on the US. This is indisputable.

Thus Trump was seriously in violation -- not only of the UN Charter but also of the Constitution -- when he tore up the JCPOA.

Of course, what does the Constitution matter? As another US president said, "it's just another goddamn piece of paper".

Posted by: Cyril | Jun 23 2019 20:55 utc | 112

Checking on the pic put out by the pentagon, coordinates are ACFT 36.52.39E TGT 56.58.22
I take it ACFT is the aircraft taking the video and TGT is the target aircraft that is being videoed.
Close to six minutes of angle separation, which at the equator equals six nautical miles or approx 10.8 kms. Slightly less at the location - say around 8-9 k.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 20:56 utc | 113

Open thread stuff for a slow Sunday afternoon

A mysterious gut doctor is begging Americans to throw out “this vegetable” now. But, like, which? or, A journey through internet garbage.

A number of my shadier mil-blogs have a high percentage of "click-bait" stuff to tempt the unwary, but every now and then a person decides to try to find out more. Though it's almost always a total waste of time, sometimes you can pick up some nuggets.

The long read at the link is full of interesting things, but for folks who don't figure they can spare the time, here is the ending/conclusion.

I think it’s corn

The mystery vegetable is corn? Dr. Pedre’s publicist stopped responding to my emails after I stated my specific question (“Is it corn?”). But eventually, another person in the 2 Peas group buckled down to watch the entire video and informed everyone of the answer: corn.

“Okay so given this, do you still eat corn?” someone asks. “I like it in small quantities with Mexican food but I stopped eating corn about 20 years ago because of the carbs.” Sounds like they didn’t stop eating corn 20 years ago. But another user agrees that corn is awful, writing, “I hate the way corn gets stuck in my teeth.”

Anyway, seems like the vegetable is corn.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Jun 23 2019 20:56 utc | 114

dh 109

Much would depend on what department controlled the aircraft. Pentagon assets or CIA assets (question mark key does not work). I take it they are pentagon assets and would be under the control of Centcom. From what I have seen in the past, the Centcom commander may have a lot in common with Bolton. Perhaps Bolton, with the collusion of Centcom try to pull off a little stunt to take Trump into a war. My feeling is Trump intends to attack Iran, but at a time of his choosing.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 21:12 utc | 115

Boeing’s Latest 737 MAX Concern: Pilots’ Physical Strength

This issue makes me wonder if Boeing has a single mechanical engineer in its employ. If that trim wheel is of any importance at all, why is the freaking thing so little? Or supposing that cockpit space is an issue, why isn't there an extendable ratchet wrench arrangement for it?

Archimedes used to say, in the Doric speech of Syracuse : “Give me a place to stand and with a lever I will move the whole world.”

A suitable lever arm on that wheel would allow the smallest and weakest of pilots to do the same.

True story: I'd used a tire place for several years because they were handy, fast, and had given me no previous trouble. One day out in the driveway I needed to loosen the lug nuts, and found that my 14" breaker bar along with a grown man's strength wasn't enough to break any of them loose. During the last tire installation somebody had used his big air wrench and then neglected to reset the nuts to the proper torque. When I drove into the tire place, the entire crew there promptly blamed me for the problem. The head idiot said that if I'd used the proper wrench - the little 10" cheapo supplied with the spare, all would have been well. A very large good-old-boy then took his 25" breaker bar and broke the nuts loose. They made big show of torquing them, and I drove away, never to return.

Back to the 737 - you'd want to restrict the length of the ratcheting lever bar to a size which couldn't break the wires, but anything short of that would be fine. Why the hell is Boeing still installing the tiny wheels?

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Jun 23 2019 21:24 utc | 116

Regarding new Saudi attack Airport not refinery

Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 23 2019 21:25 utc | 117

Israel is at the centre of it.
Perhaps better expressed as Israel AND the banksters.
Israel defends/projects its interests through proxies and ceaseless belligerence in an attempt to expand its territory and subjugate its enemies. The banksters hate the China/Russia accord and their exclusion of global banks and their mongrel dogs from funding the OBOR investment with $US.

So yes the centre of it is clear. I am with OP on this.

Thank you b for a might hot week of thought gathering and fostering inquiry.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2019 21:35 utc | 118

Another thing I have notice on the maps put out regarding the drone shootdown, is that there is three borders. First the median line between Oman and Iran given on Iranian maps. When US military aircraft stray across to the Iranian side of that line, they are given warnings. Then there is the twelve nautical mile redline plus a black line on US maps which they say is the Iranian claimed territorial waters. The US black line is sometimes outside and sometimes inside the red twelve mile limit. Where the drone was shot down, the US line runs inside the red twelve mile line.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 21:38 utc | 119

@114. "My feeling is Trump intends to attack Iran, but at a time of his choosing."

If that's the case he'll wait until he gets re-elected. In the meantime he'll say he doesn't want war.

Posted by: dh | Jun 23 2019 21:44 utc | 120

@69 @71 @111

In relation to International Law as writ in the UN Charter being supreme over nations domestic law:

1. Is there a 'get out of jail free' clause that signatories have inserted as some sort of 'rider' to there ratification?

2. Or is the continuous flagrant breach of the charter by many countries, (particularly western countries) simply due to the fact there are no penalties other than Security Council mandated sanctions?

I haven't found any language about exceptions to the Charter where a country considers it's 'interests' - that most self-defining of words - are at stake.

Any thoughts?

Posted by: powerandpeople | Jun 23 2019 21:44 utc | 121

Peter AU 1@112 - Knowledgeable mil posters elsewhere say the TGT is not what the camera is looking at - it's either one of the targets the pilot punched in or one of the pre-programmed ones in the digital mission load. It could be anything, not necessarily a hostile target. The coordinates of whichever one was selected last is displayed whether the camera is looking at it or not. Just to the left of those coordinates are the numbers 277º (crosshair object bearing) and 4.2NM (Nautical Miles - crosshair object range). The 277º could also be back azumith. IDK.

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jun 23 2019 21:44 utc | 122

@ Zachary Smith 115
This issue makes me wonder if Boeing has a single mechanical engineer in its employ.
Actually it's a whole career field.
Human engineering is the study of mental and physical capacities of human beings in relation to the demands made upon them by their job and by the equipment they have to use to carry out their jobs.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 21:49 utc | 123

Trump is a saver.
news headline:
After cancelling a retaliatory strike on Iran, Trump warns: “If they do something else, it’ll be double”

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 21:52 utc | 124

So a lot of debate, but in the end the US lost out by retracting Trump's attack. Whatever you think about Iran's defence capabilities, it would be a long drawn-out attack. The US, listening to the exiles, may believe the regime is about to fold. It is not the case. My visit in April/May found lots of the middle class opposed to the regime, but not a willingness to overturn it. I presume because they don't think they would win. As happened in 2009.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 23 2019 21:53 utc | 125

PavewayIV 120

Thanks for that info. Seems like the only data that's of use in the pic is the distance between the crosshair and the camera target - in this case the drone.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 21:56 utc | 126

@ Peter AU 1 117
Actually the lines don't mean that much.
>The 12nm territorial limit is in the UNCLOS, which neither the US nor Iran has ratified.
> In defending one's country, one does what one has to do. Let the US fly their toy aeroplanes near some other country, not near a country that has been threatened many times with "all options on the table."

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 21:57 utc | 127

Reportedly one of the targets was the SAM site, which probably became an empty field immediately after the shoot-down.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 21:59 utc | 128

powerandpeople@119 "Is there a 'get out of jail free' clause that signatories have inserted as some sort of 'rider' to there ratification?"... I think it is called the veto.
“Roosevelt and Churchill built into the architecture of the United Nations the principle that the US and UK are above the rule for all time They accorded themselves permanent seats on the Security Council, the only United Nations body with any authority, and gave themselves a veto on decisions of the Council
The result is that they can engage in aggression against other states, as and when they like, without fear of a slap on the wrist by the Council, let alone being
Subject to economic sanctions or military action mandated by the Council. (Stalin agreed that the Soviet Union would participate in the United Nations once Churchill explained to him that the Soviet Union would have a veto as well. Nationalist China was added to the list at the insistence of Roosevelt, and Churchill insisted that France be added as a counterweight to China.) In fact, there is a fundamental contradiction written into the UN Charter. On the one hand, Article 2(1) states: “The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.”But, on the other hand, Article 23 of the Charter grants five of its Members permanent seats on the Security Council, and Article 27 gives each of them a veto over decisions of the Council. Clearly, all Members are equal, but some Members are more equal than others”.

“Academic lawyers in their thousands may protest that taking military action against Iraq was illegal because it lacked proper authorisation by the Security Council, But it is of no consequence in the real world when there is no possibility of the UK, or its political leadership, being convicted for taking such action. It is meaningless to describe an action as illegal if there is no expectation that the perpetrator of the action will be convicted by a competent judicial body. In the real world, an action is legal unless a competent judicial body rules that it is illegal”.
“In the Attorney Generals advice to Blair he addressed the question that every client needs to have his lawyer answer, namely, what are the chances of me being done if I follow your advice? In this instance, would the UK get convicted of aggression? And would the Prime Minister himself face a trial for “the planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression” as happened to Hermann Goering at Nuremberg? The Attorney- General’s answers were: there’s very little chance of it”.

Posted by: Harry Law | Jun 23 2019 22:00 utc | 129

Don Bacon 125

Iran is a signatory to UNCLOS (1982) but have not ratified it.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 22:08 utc | 130

Don Bacon
I read something on why Iran had not ratified it sometime ago. I think it was along the line of Iran being able or not being able to block passage of military vessels through its territorial waters in the Hormuz Strait.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 22:11 utc | 131

"My feeling is Trump intends to attack Iran, but at a time of his choosing." Peter AU

I doubt that Trump cares much about Iran. The least objection will derail him.

Posted by: Laguerre | Jun 23 2019 22:14 utc | 132

Just to add a rider to the above, If all 14 other states on the UNSC ganged up on the US and put forward a resolution condemning the US for an act of aggression, the US would veto it and the resolution would be sent down the memory hole.

The crime of aggression has been added to the ICC legislation, unfortunately the US has the American Service-members protection Act [ASPA] which authorizes the U.S President to use “all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court.” This authorization has led the act to be nicknamed the “Hague Invasion Act.”
Also when Nicaragua took the US to the ICJ [International court of Justice, the world court] the court found in favour of Nicaragua and ordered reparations, the US ignored it.

Posted by: Harry Law | Jun 23 2019 22:15 utc | 133

@ Peter AU 1 129
Iran's desire to avoid any UN restrictions (UNCLOS) upon its behavior was matched in Washington.
news article, 2007
The Law of the Sea Treaty threatens American sovereignty. -- Will Americans rule themselves or be ruled by others — this is to be a great question of the 21st century. An opening scene is currently being played out in the U.S. Senate concerning international courts and supranational institutions.
>Senator Richard Lugar (R., Ind.) declares, “we are allowing decisions that will affect our Navy, our ship operators, our off-shore industries . . . to be made without U.S. representation.”
>Admiral James “Ace” Lyons (former Pacific Fleet commander) declared that it is was “inconceivable” why the “Senate would willingly want to forfeit its responsibility for America’s freedom of the seas to . . . [an] unaccountable international agency.
>Senators Vitter (La.), Inhofe (Ok.), DeMint (S.C.), Kyl (Ariz.), Sessions (Ala.), Ensign (Nev.), Lott (Miss.), Cornyn (Tex.) and McConnell (Ky.) and Presidential candidates Fred Thompson, Mike Huckabee, Tom Tancredo, and Duncan Hunter have denounced the Treaty. John McCain said he “would probably vote against it.” . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 22:24 utc | 134

PavewayIV 120

4.2 nm from camera to target, slightly under six minutes of angle separation (between aircraft) according to ACFT and TGT data displayed. I am not sure how to calculate distance convert minutes to nautical mile at that latitude, but one minute of angle at the equator being one nautical mile, this puts camera to target (4.2nm) and ACFT TGT separation (5 minutes 31 seconds) at very similar distances.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 22:25 utc | 135

Those Houthis are at it again.

Yemen's Houthis hit Saudi airport, killing one expat, Saudi-led coalition says

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 23 2019 22:25 utc | 136

But when an UNCLOS Tribunal finds against China's fishing in Philippine waters: Oh what a wonderful thing UNCLOS is!

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 22:27 utc | 137

Harry Law @127--

The UNSC veto doesn't make the UN Charter null and void. Actions that violate it are still illegal/unconstitutional and able to be challenged in domestic courts. The problem is they haven't yet. However, there is a way round those unwilling/unable to abide by the Charter as UNSC members as you can read, a method successfully employed during 1956's Suez Crisis to outmaneuver France and UK.

As I commented earlier, the vast majority of US citizens are illiterate when it comes to their Constitution. For military personnel, such illiteracy can prove fatal, for it's up to the individual to determine if the order given them is lawful or not. When I was in the military, figuring that out attracted my curiosity since it affected me directly. Any action not approved by the UNSC I would be ordered to perform would thus be an illegal order--Grenada being the first test opportunity, but I was never issued any orders and thus had no opportunity to protest.

In the very first comment I made today, I linked to an article citing Putin's detailed accusation of the Outlaw US Empire for its gross, repetitive lawbreaking and the absolute necessity of returning to the Rule-of-Law centered around the internationally approved edicts of the UN Charter.

Either the United State of America is an Outlaw Nation or it is not. I contend it is and have a stupendous amount of evidence going back to 1945 to substantiate my contention. Who will mount the defense? Anyone?

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2019 22:30 utc | 138

Wage labourer, , 91.

I suggest you download Douglas Reed's comprehensive review of Zionism's activities in "The Controversy of Zion" over the period you describe from a singular perspective and read it thoroughly. IN fact I commend that book to everyone on this site. Reed was a correspondent through WW2 and before and his work is detailed and readable, with extensive references.

Get it here:

Posted by: eagle eye | Jun 23 2019 22:40 utc | 139

Don - regarding "Iran's desire to avoid any UN restrictions (UNCLOS) upon its behavior was matched in Washington."

The difference as I see it is the US as far as I know have no major shipping lanes - straits such as Hormuz that would come within the twelve mile limit.
And as you say @135... what tricks could the US get up to in the Hormuz strait using UNCLOS as an excuse.
Iran signing up to unclos would allow US navy free reign within the twelve mile limit where shipping lanes run inside that limit. I believe this was Iran's main problem in ratifying the agreement.
From memory, I believe Iran were ready to ratify the agreement so long as there was a clause stating Iran had control over military transit.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 23 2019 22:40 utc | 140

@ Peter AU 1 138
within the twelve mile limit where shipping lanes run inside that limit
That would be "innocent passage"
UNCLOS p. 26

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 22:50 utc | 141

136 Cont'd--

In George Washington's Farewell Address, he intones to avoid "entangling alliances" for they will tie one's hands. It's for that precise reason the US Senate refused to ratify the Versailles Treaty at the end of WW1 because doing so automatically enrolled the USA into the League of Nations, thus tying our hands from being able to act unilaterally as was our habit. The sentiment changed and the idea of Collective Security finally outweighed the perceived benefits of unilateral action--a perception that unfortunately was very short-lived. The 1947 National Security Act was devised to circumvent the UN Charter and a foreign policy was devised to enable the USA to maintain its global dominance for as long as possible. Amazingly, that foreign policy wasn't even declared Secret or above and was printed in the ongoing publication Foreign Relations of the United States, known as FRUS at collegiate libraries where you can learn about some amazing stuff. Nor was the publication Joint Vision 2010, 1997, that announced the Outlaw US Empire's #1 policy goal of obtaining Full Spectrum Dominance, or its 2006 sequel, Joint Vision 2020. Quite obviously the policy goal is completely at odds with/against the UN Charter and thus unconstitutional--yet--it's gone completely unchallenged while Tens of Trillions of dollars were wasted in its pursuit.

Honestly, I try not to get impatient--but none of this is hidden from the public at all, and Congress approves it despite their presumed literacy of the Constitution they swore to uphold and defend. And I'm supposedly a Radical! I'm arguing what ought to be considered very Conservative Principles--the same championed by my Republican Grandparents who supported FDR.


Time for a beer!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2019 22:56 utc | 142

Americans are worshippers of the Our Lady Of Perpetual Innocence Church, where sins, if acknowledged at all, are quickly assigned to others and then dropped down the Memory Hole, and then we go back to proclaiming ourselves the light of the world, the city on the shining hill, the hope of all mankind.
And any new sins we are found to commit are quickly proclaimed unprecedented- "Not the America I know", blamed on others, and then, once again, forgotten and our moral virginity miraculously restored.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Jun 23 2019 22:58 utc | 143

@ 139
In that Innocent Passage section there are several subsections, one dealing with military ships. They can't be there if their intent is to cause a problem for the state affected -- "Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State." . .a reminder, UNCLOS is only on the water and not in the air.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 23 2019 22:59 utc | 144

William Gruff @ 78, 88:

That is very interesting information about Iran's elimination of Microsoft Windows from its military systems. I assume also that Microsoft was also purged from all other databases in the Iranian govt and its agencies.

Spook organisations like the CIA, MI5 / MI6 and others not good at real hacking? Heck, were they ever good at collecting "intelligence"?

One of my old university lecturers once worked for the CIA as a researcher. The CIA was his first employer after he left university. He was of Polish background, knew some Polish, did not know any German - so where was he set to work? He was put to work in the section on East Germany to read its newspapers and reports, and listen to East German radio broadcasts. Someone he knew who was fluent in German but no other major eastern European language was relegated to the Bulgarian section.

With regard to comment 88, I'd be curious to know what sort of people were actually on the P-8 spy plane. One online report (I forget the source now) said Special Forces people were on board. So if we were to suppose that the Iranians failed to notice this plane and the drone, how far could they have penetrated Iranian airspace and what might their ultimate purpose have been?

Posted by: Jen | Jun 23 2019 23:05 utc | 145

William Gruff @98

The British, French and Spanish colonized North America before the US existed. The US was made of British citizens who were organized by the illuminated to create a country free of monarchy and not controlled by religion.

The indigenous population and imported African slaves in British North America actually fared much better than some of those in the Caribbean controlled by Dutch, French and Spanish masters

One must look at the US as an extension of the illuminated European Elites with a early working class that was forced to America as indentured servants (actually white slaves) or to avoid prison for the crime of being in debt. Today the working class is no better off being debt/wage slaves with the same illuminated elite in control

Indeed, looking at the havoc created in the world from Europeans since 1492, including the creation of the US and Europes colonialism and slavery and terrible wars through the mid 20th century, I find it amusing to see Europeans cast stones at its brothers across the pond, especially when their countries /EU support every action of the US

We are all psycho killers in the eyes of the rest of the world

Posted by: Pft | Jun 23 2019 23:16 utc | 146

Karlof1@136 "The UNSC veto doesn't make the UN Charter null and void. Actions that violate it are still illegal/unconstitutional and able to be challenged in domestic courts". I agree it does not make the charter null and void, the question is how can aggressors be brought to book, Tony Blair was accused of the crime of aggression but the Judges said he could not be prosecuted see below. Thanks for the link to the Uniting for Peace resolution, I will read it tomorrow.
"Tony Blair should not face prosecution for his role in the 2003 Iraq war, the high court has ruled.
The lord chief justice, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, and another senior judge, Mr Justice Ouseley, said on Monday that there was no crime of aggression in English law under which the former prime minister could be charged.
The decision blocks an attempt by a former Iraqi general, Abdulwaheed al-Rabbat, to bring a private war crimes prosecution against the former Labour leader.
The two judges recognised that a crime of aggression had recently been incorporated into international law, but said it did not apply retroactively".

Posted by: Harry Law | Jun 23 2019 23:17 utc | 147


Reportedly Boeing 787 is unsafe too: Dreamliner's fire suppression system does not warrant cut-off of fuel supply into burning engines. And again, pilots knew it for years but until 737-MCAS crashes it got zero publicity....

Posted by: Arioch | Jun 23 2019 23:24 utc | 148

Basic rule of thumb, for whenever Dumb Bacon starts pontificating: bet the other side.

You might not always win, even a stopped clock is correct twice a day, even a village idiot like Bacon inadvertently stumbles on the truth occasionally, but on average you'll be waaaaaaay ahead by consistently betting against whatever shite he spouts

Posted by: FFP | Jun 23 2019 23:27 utc | 149

Some see the shooting down of the drone as a provocative attack by Iran. This was a quarter billion dollar intelligence collection machine no doubt collecting information to be used by the US in a future attack

As such I see their attack as a defensive and not a provocative measure

I presume they have enough confidence in their missiles to shoot down a drone flying in a stable trajectory. Unlike the situation where highly maneuverable Israeli jets deeked a Syrian missile battery into downing a Russian plane. I also don't believe the US would be sacrificing 34 servicemen in the P-4, although I know such deeds have been done in the past. Too much risk Trump gets blamed for provoking the attack which led to the loss

Posted by: Pft | Jun 23 2019 23:28 utc | 150

Trump is such a con man... He said he told Shinzō Abe, before the Japanese prime minister visited Tehran on 12 June: “Send the following message: you can’t have nuclear weapons. And other than that, we can sit down and make a deal. But you cannot have nuclear weapons.”
On further questioning he added the demand that Tehran should not have a ballistic missile programme, and suggested he wanted a tougher inspection regime.
This whole saga is not about nuclear weapons, it is about those conventional ballistic missiles which Iran is manufacturing perfectly legally and changing the equation in the region. These are precision missiles and could turn Tel Aviv and Saudi oil infrastructure into rubble, US/Israel want to make Iran defenseless. It is not going to happen.

Posted by: Harry Law | Jun 23 2019 23:41 utc | 151

A couple of random thoughts on the drone/P8. Firstly, there was earlier a fair amount of debate on the stealthiness of the drone. I would just mention that the Iranians did not say it was a stealth drone they were tracking...they said it was in "stealth mode." I originally thought that was just an offhand reference to the craft turning off its transponder, making it somewhat less obvious although hardly a true stealth craft. But perhaps they meant that it was noted to be in fully passive mode with respect to its surveillance equipment. That could mean that it was there specifically for observation (of the P8, as much as Iranian defenses); and of course could mean that much of the equipment, particularly the active equipment, was no longer aboard. Wouldn't be needed, after all, if the job was just to record what was hoped to be an Iranian reaction, and would want to minimize the amount of equipment potentially falling into enemy hands if things went bad.

Secondly, the 35 souls on board the P8 comment by Iran was brilliant. For one thing, it put the US on the defensive and once again called world attention to the fact that the Iranians have striven to avoid loss of life (so much so that Trump even used it to partly save face on the whole thing). As Paveway IV commented, it could have technically been an empty, remotely controlled plane, in which case the Iranian reference to a highly unusual number of crewmen may have been a tongue-in-cheek jab at the Yanks--or there may have been an unusually high number of crewlambs, which might also have alerted the Iranian intelligence that a set-up was unfolding. But either way, it is unquestionable that Iranian intelligence has penetrated the base, or operations,, to a degree that must be causing all sorts of trepidation amongst the US hawks.

Posted by: J Swift | Jun 23 2019 23:42 utc | 152

@ eagle eye | Jun 23, 2019 6:40:30 PM #137

Thanks for the tip about the author Douglas Reed. He appears to have been stifled so well that even learning he ever existed is accidental. By the way, most of his books seem to be on the Internet Archive site, and I've downloaded all I can find. Want to get a feeling for what kind of man he was. (In Nazis I have no interest) Here is an amazon blurb for one of them.

Far and Wide

Reed gives a record of his travels in the United States. With unusual flair and uncanny prophetic insight, Reed takes us on a journey of the historical and political side of America. So controversial was this book on Communism and Zionism that it sent the author into indefinite retirement and forced his publisher out of business. 398 Pages.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Jun 23 2019 23:45 utc | 153

Jen @143--

As myself and others noted, the usual crew for P-8 is 7: two on the flight deck and 5 distributed at the 5 work stations. The plane's equipped with a bomb/torpedo/sonobouy bay as it's primary mission's ASW. Jamming in an additional 28-30 people would be rather difficult at best. IMO, the only way would be to remove all ordinance to make room for what could only be 3 Special Forces squads and their gear--they would paradive into Iran to do their thing, presumably. Otherwise, the plane wasn't a P-8. I don't recall the Iranians providing the plane type, although it's clear they could have since they readily identified the drone. That leaves us with the following:

1. Iran's incorrect about the # of people they "saw" on other plane.
2. USA's playing along with Iranian mistake, but added 3 more.
3. Iran's correct. USA's lying about plane type.
4. Iran's correct. USA correct, but altered mission and added troops.
5. Iran's correct. USA correct; but if shadowing drone, why so many people--trial run?
6. Iran's correct. Both US planes deliberately entered Iranian airspace to provoke a response that wasn't obtained earlier in the week as Zarif just informed. If so, why so many on non-drone?

There're probably more that could be obtained, but the above seem to be the most logical. It's also possible that Iran toppled the planes into its airspace using EW; although that possibility surprised PavewayIV, I'm not in the least. Regardless if there were 7, 35 or 38 people on the second plane, they all probably needed new trousers upon landing. I also wonder if the Iranian system actuates the radar-lock warning alarm giving the pilot a chance to evade? If I'm correct in my evaluation of Iran's system, it won't and the air crew won't have time to say a final prayer.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2019 23:52 utc | 154

@Harry Law, 131

It would seem US has gone rogue.
Is even threatening th UN.
This is damaging its reputation ability to make cooperative aggrements.
Seems working against its own interests as a nation.
Leading one to question who does it serve.
A nation with a poerful military that does not answer to its people nor to its purported (elected) leaders.
Clearly it recognizes that its powerful military requires reliable funding and the public is fickle and economy complex so it is attractive to resort to piracy - plunder.
That works for a while.

Posted by: jared | Jun 24 2019 0:08 utc | 155

Harry Law @149--

Thanks for your reply! I recall what an absolutely incensed Craig Murray wrote about that decision about Tony Blair--well beyond a travesty as it's a Capital Crime and not subject to statutes of limitation. The Supreme Court Treason related to the 2000 election penned by the late Vincent T. Bugliosi, The Betrayal of America: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President, and his The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder, provoke similar ire.

Going on 3 decades now, one of my primary questions is How to contain the Outlaw US Empire and make it into a law-abiding nation without blowing up the world. I've always recognized that it would take a global coalition to arrive at a genuine confrontation. IMO, we're very close to that point; the G-20 will indicate just how close. But even more importantly than the global coalition is the requirement for a political force within the Empire asking and acting on my question. The Maximum Pressure must come from internal and external sources for any positive outcome to be achieved. Since 2012, I've seen 2020 as THE inflection point. It seems I'm not alone.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 24 2019 0:19 utc | 156

What about Lula De Silva in Brazil? Any chance of BRICS reintegration?

Posted by: Rubberneck | Jun 24 2019 0:46 utc | 157

Re postings from Stever; Thanks, and a tip o' the cap for the links you posted on Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard.

IMO, these two are the best we can get, however, the PTB, will NEVER let them be heard on MSM.

Posted by: ben | Jun 24 2019 0:55 utc | 158

jared @153--

"Leading one to question who does it serve."

An excellent question! The Money Power; The Deep State; The Current Oligarchy; or as Michael Hudson is able to briefly interject during the Crosstalk program available at the link, it's "Trade Wars for Monopoly Interests." The program's educational because it unveils the numerous false assumptions/accusations put forth as self-evident Truths never questioned by BigLie Media and its mavens.

A better question would be, Has the genuine National Interest of the USA ever been served, which would mean gaining an understanding of what constitutes National Interest and what would it being genuine entail. We touched on this topic several days ago, but a proper discussion is well beyond the scope of MoA. Above in this thread, I say the #1 policy goal--what's the most important goal in pursuing the National Interest--is announced in Joint Vision 2020 as attaining Full Spectrum Domination of the planet and its people, which is against established International and Constitutional Law. Yet, that's the policy being pursued by TrumpCo, as it was by ObamaInc, by BushCo, and by ClintonLtd under whom it was first enunciated.

I'll wager you didn't know that, nor do the vast majority of US citizens or their counterparts globally.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 24 2019 1:02 utc | 159

After Israel and/or the US nuke Iran and thus spark WWIII and the world is destroyed, I hope this thread is unearthed in the ashes as a testament to truth and reality. You folks are phenomenal.

Posted by: wontonpiece | Jun 24 2019 1:06 utc | 160

ben @156--

Saanders was on Face The Nation which is CBS News. Doesn't get much more MSM or BigLie Media than that. We should be thankful as it seems a few cracks are appearing in the edifice.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 24 2019 1:10 utc | 161

When you talk CBS News, with its history, you're talking Dan Rather.
Dan Rather, an iconic US journalist: "Look I'm an American. I never tried to kid anybody that I'm some internationalist or something. And when my country is at war, I want my country to win, whatever the definition of 'win' might be. Now, I can't and don't argue that that is coverage without prejudice. About that I am prejudiced." So Dan brought us through the criminal war against Vietnam and the Nixon presidency. -- from Norman Solomon's "War Made Easy" -- How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 24 2019 1:38 utc | 162

Karlof1 @ 152:

Yes I have noticed other reports that said the usual number of people on planes of that type (P-8) was seven or nine.

Given that space would be at a premium on planes of any type, shoving 35+ folks inside would seem absurd as well as impossible. Unless they are already no good for anything other than pushing up daisies.

So as William Gruff stated @ 88, the goal was to send the plane into Iranian airspace (but with corpses already on board) with the intent to provoke an Iranian missile hit, and the drone to record the destruction as part of an excuse to be manufactured to legitimise and support US military action.

Posted by: Jen | Jun 24 2019 1:41 utc | 163

@ 159 said;"We should be thankful as it seems a few cracks are appearing in the edifice."


Posted by: ben | Jun 24 2019 1:53 utc | 164

@161 Jen. Jesus, I couldnt make the 35 to such a small space equation work unless those bodies are cold, not warm. When one thinks about MH17 and other Shenanigans, why not? Bartender, a round of tin foil hats for the patrons on me..

Posted by: Lozion | Jun 24 2019 2:07 utc | 165

@161 Jen. Jesus, I couldnt make the 35 to such a small space equation work unless those bodies are cold, not warm. When one thinks about MH17 and other Shenanigans, why not? Bartender, a round of tin foil hats for the patrons on me..

Posted by: Lozion | Jun 24 2019 2:07 utc | 166

Rob Reiner (backed by David Frum, Max Boot, James Clapper and their absolutely-not-xenophobic-sounding "Committee to Investigate Russia") continues to use Hollywood celebrities to spread the Trump Derangement Syndrome. First it was Morgan Freeman. Didn't go over too well. Even the "liberals" hated it. Now it's Robert De Niro, Martin Sheen, Laurence Fishburne, Stephen King, George Takei, and a few lesser known actors. Here's an excerpt:

Stephen King: Here are some other specific examples from the Mueller report.

Sophia Bush: One: in the Spring of 2016, a Russian operative told a Trump adviser that the Russian government had dirt on Hillary Clinton in the form of thousands of emails.

Jonathan Van Ness: The adviser then worked to arrange a meeting between the campaign and the Russian government.

Laurence Fishburne: That's collusion.

Woah! Stop right there! The "Trump adviser" is George Papadopoulos — that is clear from the video sequence. So the "Russian operative" they're talking about is none other than Joseph Mifsud. Here's Papadopoulos himself talking about Mifsud in an April 16, 2019 interview with Michael Tracey:

George Papadopoulos: He remains an enigma to this day and no one could track him down, but I've been told recently he's not dead, so there's some improvements.

Michael Tracey: Right, we should say… I mean, he was rumored to have been deceased at a certain point, right?

George Papadopoulos: That's right.

Michael Tracey: And now it appears he might be living under an assumed name [?] but nobody's heard from him quite a while.

George Papadopoulos: Well, the only in-public statements that he's made were two. One, he gave an interview — a bizarre interview — to the Italian media the day my name was released and he said he's never heard of "Putin's niece" and "George is probably talking about some girl that he was trying to have a romantic relationship with" (and we could get into that aspect of my relationship with Joseph Mifsud). And also he… his lawyer, this man named Stephan Roh, who's a prominent Swiss attorney, has gone public numerous times and stated that Joseph Mifsud was no Russian asset, but he was a Western intelligence operative, and he was working under the guidance of the FBI when he was interacting with Papadopoulos. He said this on CNN during a one-hour short documentary that CNN had about my life, and he's given interviews subsequently to The Daily Caller, where he suggested the same exact thing.

Now, anybody who's been following my case and who could just simply google Joseph Mifsud can also see that: Joseph Mifsud, of course, was dealing with MI6 figures at the highest level; three months after I notified the FBI that he could be potentially a Russian asset, he was in Saudi Arabia on a panel with Ash Carter, who was the former defense secretary under Obama; and around the time [?] my name was released in October of 2017, he was photographed in The Guardian attending private parties with Boris Johnson, who just happened to be the Secretary of State of the UK. So, unless the Russians, basically, infiltrated the upper echelons of the U.S. and UK security establishment, then Mifsud was no Russian agent, and he's, in my opinion, and what everybody now who is objective believes is that he was actually an operative working on behalf of the West to, basically, entrap me with this unsolicited information regarding Hillary Clinton and her emails, and that's why he's gone underground, and he's living somewhere in Italy, I've been told, and he's actually on the payroll of Italian intelligence — that's what I've been told recently. So, it's a very bizarre story, but I can try and go step-by-step and explain my entire encounters with him, and what we know now about him.

And he does indeed go step-by-step and describe his encounters with Mifsud in the full two-hour interview (continue from 15:14). And of course after Mifsud told Papadopoulos during their last meeting that "the Russians have Hillary Clinton's emails", no attempt was made by Papadopoulos to "arrange a meeting between the Trump campaign and the Russian government". In fact, Papadopoulos was scared and confused as it was right after that meeting that his life went very bizarre.

So how can it be that Joseph Mifsud is now a "Russian operative"? Well, look no further than his Wikipedia page. You see, he visited Valdai Discussion Club annual conference once or twice. Apparently, that's all it takes nowadays to become a Russian-linked Russian operative with close connections to Russia.

It would all be very funny if it weren't so depressing. I can understand Hollywood actors doing this — after all, these people excel at reading from a script for money. But Stephen King? I thought he was somewhat of an intellectual. Apparently not. Or perhaps he's buddies with CIA shill Reiner. Who knows.

Posted by: S | Jun 24 2019 2:12 utc | 167

Oups, sorry about the double post. Question: Did Iranian eyes see those bodies loaded to the P8 (Udeid, Balad?)?
How did they know the amount? Cold bodies leave no thermal signature, right?

Posted by: Lozion | Jun 24 2019 2:12 utc | 168

magnier article from today - How Iran decided to down a US drone and narrowly averted War by sparing another US plane apologies if it was already posted, i didn't see it..

Posted by: james | Jun 24 2019 2:22 utc | 169

Back when I listened to NPR, I remember Dan Rather as special correspondent and an excited cheerleader for the buildup in the gulf for the post 911 attack on Iraq. He was very enthusiastic for Cheney Dubya Bush's Slaughter.

Hans Blix was shouted down and Dan Rather helped in doing that.

Rather is a pure USA American. CIA man.

Posted by: Kristan hinton | Jun 24 2019 2:45 utc | 170

Oscar Peterson @56

Sorry for the late response.

Total agreement that US policy as regards the Middle East is myopic, contradictory, and poor. I would disagree about where to lay the blame for that. As I mentioned, absolutely does Israel punch well above its right in its ability to meld US action to its prerogative. However, again I would disagree that this contradicts the premise I was putting forward, that US action would nonetheless be very similar to what we see today.
You give the example of the US going full force on Syria and Assad, even after Hafez gave his blessing to the first Gulf war and Bashar was more than congenial after 9/11. Syria's mistake, in the eyes of the US, was its potential as opposed to its actions. Syria has always supported Arab nationalism and socialism. That's simply a no-go for the US. What threat did Yugoslavia pose to the US? None. But socialism plus pan-Slavic nationalism equals 'must be destroyed' if given the chance.
US foreign relations in a nut shell is respect if forced, civility of necessary, and, in all other relations, divide and conquer. Iraq? Pitch everyone against everyone and break it up. Libya? Break it up. Yugoslavia? Break it up. Soviet Union? Break it up. The US tried and tries its damnedest to break up Russia. Hell, it'd break up Germany into Catholic/ Protestant if it thought it could. Ditto for France. And I'm sure its laughing all the way to the bank in regards the coming break up of the UK.
The point is the US loves its strongmen so long as they don't 'get too big for their britches' and challenge, or even be in a position to possibly challenge, their strategic interests. Even if, to you and I, those 'interests' are short-sighted and poor policy.
This is in no way is to excuse or downplay Israel or its oversized influence on the US but to say they're cut from the same cloth and have similar aims of hegemony.

@ all
Great open thread, again wishing I had more time to post.

Re: role of P8 vs drone. It makes sense the P8 with its stacked manifest was the real target. But would the P8 be filming the drone if it was the bait and the drone was filming it? Definitely possible but I wonder if the crew wouldn't be able to piece together that THEY were the target, if that was the case. Makes more sense that they would have been told to be scanning for SAM sites, or some other red herring.
Then again the added crew, plus the issue of who ordered the flight in the first place, doesn't immediately add up. If it wasn't Centcom, I'd expect some seriously PO-ed commanders who've put two-and-two together and realize they've been pawned.

Posted by: Don Wiscacho | Jun 24 2019 2:52 utc | 171

james @167: Magnier

Not surprising that some unnamed Iranian commander speaks belligerently against USA.

It's clear that Magnier believes this is newsworthy because of a few sly phrases like "Iran will not stand idle" that's supposed to confirm the view that Iran has turned into the terrorists that the anti-Iranian group (USA, Israel, Saudis) say they are.

I don't buy it. A strategy of 'stealth attacks' makes no sense as it invites increasing surveillance and beligerence from USA and is highly likely to backfire when an incident can be traced to Iran.

Much more likely that it's a propaganda ploy that plays into the false narrative that Iran is a terrorist nation.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 24 2019 3:07 utc | 172

@23 Darn right. Intentional approach by the P8 or not those 38 are lucky to be alive (I have a little trouble with Jen's 38 corpses theory). They should be asking questions.

Posted by: dh | Jun 24 2019 3:09 utc | 173

re 171 That should be reply to #168 Don Wisacho.

Posted by: dh | Jun 24 2019 3:11 utc | 174

Don Bacon 139 142

I think innocent passage is what the problem was. In Iran's case, if they signed up to that without clauses, they would have been leaving themselves wide open to US dirty tricks.

I find it difficult at times to dig up information I have read in the past due to search engines bringing up 'most liked' ect. I think what I read was Iran's negotiations with UN over UNCLOS.
This link covers a little of it.;dn=829631489031290;res=IELHSS;type=pdf

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jun 24 2019 3:37 utc | 175

@ mataman 77

Hey, thanks for the comment. AFAIK, the democrats used the same tactic here in Oregon in the early 2000s when the repubz were killing it. So your conflation of repub legislators and podunk country magatards isn't quite accurate.

Yes, I would say that 99% of legislation done by the dems and their utilizing children as tools in their delusional quest to eradicate CO2 does chafe at rural Oregon and America at large, of course sans the urban liberal intelligentsia and its sheeple who think they are going to save the world.

There probably is a way to override the need for democrats to pass legislation with at least 2 repubz present. The problem is is that democrats know that that would reveal themselves to be what everyone knows to be true about them: "there is no dialogue and you must yield to us." Why would you think that sensible legislators shouldn't try to derail this or pull the wool from Oregonians eyes re: delusional and do-goody demos?

Hey, don't you think homelessness and drug use and mental healthcare availability might be a better use of state time and coffers?

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jun 24 2019 3:41 utc | 176

More disimulation under way.

The point is being made by the US president that EU is not keeping to sanctions, openly implying that it is acting by profit motive, and regards the US. This will be taken as to defend any stance at g20, or to explain the silence in Europe with regard to escalation, so painting these countries as inept. The reason for doing this is to hide their true complicity and lack of, or vague, opposing stance, which as I have explained previously, is due to very different interests in the region than those just painted, and that align in certain ways with the US and company.

I read this as a further negative development, where the projected rift in policy leaves a gap for US hostility, or an Iranian miscalculation of support. We are in a scenario of improvisation, where the story is prepared and the result as good as decided already, given that nor the US nor Iran are likely to cede.

Posted by: Anon | Jun 24 2019 3:59 utc | 177

@ Peter AU 1 173
The US was using innocent passage in the SCS to bother China, sailing warships w/i the 12nm territorial limit. The US policy for a long time was not to challenge territorial claims anywhere.
Then the US changed its policy in the SCS. Now they sail w/i 12nm of islands claimed and maybe occupied by China and call it "disputed territory," and no longer claim innocent passage (which inherently affirmed China's claim). But they haven't done it recently during the economic discussions.
There is lots of innocent passage in the Strait of Hormuz, here's a look at the traffic also showing the damaged ship locations.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 24 2019 4:23 utc | 178

@170 jr... i read magniers comments a few different ways... i am not sure how much the language translation affects the way he communicates.. iran did shoot down the drone and iran did say they could've shot down the P-8, but decided they wouldn't... as to how magnier frames it, i doubt that myself.. sometimes i think propaganda gets communicated thru various channels and magnier is probably one of these channels.. i agree with you, it is insane for iran to do anything to egg the usa on, however i see the usa as an extremely antagonistic energy being applied towards iran relentlessly.. it is always possible a country can act differently based on this... as i have said - the financial sanctions and everything else the usa is doing and that the world is silently condoning here - is a clear act of war full stop... unless some people in positions of power step in, this is going in the obvious direction it looks like it is going and nothing is going to stop it.. basically i agree with you..

Posted by: james | Jun 24 2019 4:26 utc | 179

The other possibility re: the P-8A worth considering is that there was no P-8A involved in this incident at all. Why would Iran pick the seemingly random number of 35 out of thin air? No, they don't have spies on every U.S. Mideast base flightline. Their intelligence is impressive on occasion, but come on.

Now how about if our (U.S.) drone was being shadowed by one of our ultra-stealthy F-35s? That would make far more sense if the U.S. was indeed conducting their eternal Iran SEAD (Supression of Enemy Air Defenses) signals intelligence gathering or running another ISTAR (Intelligence, Surveilance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaisance) mission. Shadow the Triton putting it close enough to Iranian airspace to attract Iranian AA radars' attention, and have the F-35 do one of its primary missions of gathering and fingerprinting air defenses. Someone - either under U.S./Trump orders or hacking by 'some other' EW/spoofing party with knowledge of the Global Hawk (well, Isarel...) slowly but intentionally causes the drone to drift over the line into Iranian airspace to see what happens. Iran reacts like it said it would and blows it away.

Technically legal or not (others can argue the point), the U.S. knows exactly what airspace Iran considers its own and where it will react to incursions. Need I point out the tens of thousands of missions we've been running along their coast for years now WITHOUT constant provocative incursions or Iran blasting anything out of the sky? I haven't even heard Iran complain of occasional incursions. It's unnecessary - our signals snooping equipment isn't going to gain any more valuable information by being a couple of nautical miles closer to the Iranian shore. Their radars are miles further inland, not sitting on the beach. We don't need to risk quarter-billion dollar aircraft or drones to get a uselessly few decibel stronger signal. This isn't grandpa's ISTAR from WWII.

Now the 35 'crew'? How about if Iran wanted to let the U.S. commanders know that it could see and track our supposedly nearly-invisible-on-radar F-35? What a kick in the ass that would be! That would have to give the CENTCOM brass a little pause about the magic first strike on Iran with our 'invisible' F-35s. Not that they could necessarily hit them with one of their SAMs, but come ON. How many times have we heard about the hodge-podge of old or home-brew Iranian Air Defenses? The first strike on their AAD was suppose to be a cake walk (easy) for us with little risk to our invisible aircraft. So Iran just claims they also saw a P-8A clown car with 35 (mostly little people) aboard. The Fifth Fleet and CENTCOM would know damn well if there was P-8A used at all, and it couldn't hold 35 people anyway (Spec. Ops, little people, dead or otherwise). The MacDill brain trust is probably bright enough to figure out Iran's little hint.

Trump's 38 number? I don't know. 'Thirty-eight' Sounds suspiciously like 'P-eight'. His hearing isn't what it used to be, and he has garbled up things in the past. Nobody questioned his weird '38' claim, so who knows? Remember those reporters always on the que vive for bad news? Er, yeah - that came out of Trump as 'cofefe', didn't it? Or about our military being locked and loaded? Or, in Trump's words, cocked and loaded. To be honest though, he may have been referring (quite accurately) to his and Jarad's 'special' relationship with Bibi. Ugh...

Posted by: PavewayIV | Jun 24 2019 4:28 utc | 180

@167 james

Thanks for the Magnier link. Unlike skeptics, I find the narrative to be in great accord with what we have observed and surmised in recent days.

Iran reminds me of a warrior centered completely in his hara. Nothing much exists outside of the conflict. Within the conflict, no offensive energy is wasted - which means I disagree with the entire notion of escalation and pressure, first floated by b and now suggested by many commentators. Israel is attempting escalation, but not Iran, which actually prefers none.

Instead, the boundaries alone are the triggers for defensive - and unhesitatingly decisive - strikes. I accept unreservedly the claims by the official voices of Iran that it does not seek war, and that it views war as a thing not sought by either side, and that therefore war will not happen. But also that Iran will not take any abuse, and there is no room for physical transgression of Iran's sovereignty.


I have wanted to offer my view that, when Iran says that if it cannot ship oil, then no one in the region can ship oil, this does not mean that sanctions must be lifted. Sanctions are routinely being evaded, and in ever increasing ways. We've established that China is still buying Iran's oil - so much so that Reuters has to lie about it to present the pipe dream that this has diminished. And what of the story recently that Russia is buying crude from Iran and selling it onto the US, which needs a replacement for Venezuela crude?

Iran is dealing the cards on the table, with the stakes set at lifting the sanctions. And this is the goal of all diplomacy. I personally have the thought that this diplomacy will one day result in the lifting of sanctions, however long from now. But meanwhile, and under the table, the oil must flow, and the US must turn its extremely well used blind eye. If so, okay. If not, the region will be shut down. So, crashing the global economy is Iran's hole card, but it has no desire to play this card, so long as - under the table - it can continue to ship its oil.

This is my view of the meaning of these statements.


@ karlof1

The Magnier piece illustrates nicely your scenario of the commander giving the order: "If it strays into our air space, shoot it down!" Magnier uses the words that eluded me at the time, the Rules of Engagement. Ranging all across the huge country of Iran, throughout its vastly distributed military and defense infrastructure, thousands of officers are wired into the current ROE. Central command updates the momentary situation, and every team knows immediately how to act.

Physical control is poetry in action. The Viet Cong had it. The IRGC have it.

Posted by: Grieved | Jun 24 2019 4:33 utc | 181

@ @ Peter AU
Hey, do you have any interest in the HMS Canberra class of ships?
You may know that they have a propulsion system different from other warships. It's an unreliable 'azipod' rotating electric prop instead of the shaft-and-prop normally used. The azipod is widely used on cruise ships which have had many problems. If you're interested I can furnish more info.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 24 2019 4:39 utc | 182

Posted by: Arioch | Jun 23, 2019 7:24:35 PM | 146


Reportedly Boeing 787 is unsafe too: Dreamliner's fire suppression system does not warrant cut-off of fuel supply into burning engines. And again, pilots knew it for years but until 737-MCAS crashes it got zero publicity....

Why Boeing May Never Recover From 737 Debacle -- Zerohedge

Factbox: Airbus and Boeing aircraft deals at Paris Airshow -- Reuters

(Reuters) - Following is a summary of commercial aircraft deals announced by Airbus and Boeing at the Paris Airshow.

* Air Lease Corp signs letter of intent for 50 A220-300s, 27 A321XLRs and 23 A321neos worth an estimated $11 billion at list prices.

* Virgin Atlantic orders 14 A330neos worth $4.1 billion at list prices, and takes out an option for six more.

* Lebanon’s Middle East Airlines orders four A321XLRs, estimated to be worth more than $500 million at list prices.

* GECAS exercises purchase rights for 10 737-800 Boeing Converted Freighters worth about $1.1 billion at list prices, and adds 15 more purchase rights.

Compiled by Mark Potter

Posted by: John Smith | Jun 24 2019 4:47 utc | 183

Pompeo sets a high bar, to deny Iran a bunch of "resources."

Pompeo, who addressed reporters from the tarmac before he boarded his airplane in Washington, declared the goal of his talks with the Saudi kingdom and the UAE is to deny Iran “the resources to foment terror, to build out their nuclear weapon system, to build out their missile program.”

“We are going to deny them the resources they need to do that, thereby keep American interests and American people safe all around the world,” said Pompeo, who was due to arrive in the region after one person was killed and seven others were wounded in an attack by Iranian-allied Yemeni rebels on an airport in Saudi Arabia on Sunday evening, the Saudi military said.. .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 24 2019 4:52 utc | 184

@179 grieved.. thanks for your comments... i just don't see an exit ramp here... i think it is fair to iran to protect its sovereignty.. i just think the usa is going to keep doing this shit in increasing amounts until they create the proper set up for full on war.. call it a false flag or whatever.. i just can't see usa-israel backing down here.. it is backing down for the next while as i see it, but it is going to ramp up again in late october based on my read.. i will be surprised if we are not in some type of serious war by feb 2020... that is my take.. what can iran reasonably do at this point? not much as i see it.. i think russia and china need to step up and be counted... i doubt the freaks running europe, canada, australia and etc. are capable in anyway whatsoever..

Posted by: james | Jun 24 2019 4:58 utc | 185

Thanks PavewayIV | Jun 24, 2019 12:28:45 AM | 178 that makes a lot more sense than a stuffed P-8.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jun 24 2019 5:02 utc | 186

Just ran into an interesting little piece:

War with Iran?


Laying aside political and nationalistic biases, both the United States and Iran have credibility issues. While Iran is not known for its honesty, Trump and the Trump administration have no credibility; lying is simply the nature of this administration. As such, the matter cannot be settled by an appeal to credibility — although, sadly, Iran seems to be less inclined to relentless lying than Trump.

Nobody is going to believe anything put out by the US government for a long time. And yes, it's really sad when Iran or North Korea are deemed more credible than my own government.

The author does miss the point here:

If the United States removes the existing ruling class, it is not clear that we would be able to build a functional government in the new Iran—even if we airdropped billions upon billions of dollars onto the country.

This whole affair is about nothing except smashing yet another nation because the apartheid Jewish state wants that to happen.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Jun 24 2019 5:04 utc | 187

Yemen’s Houthi movement targeted Abha and Jizan airports in southern Saudi Arabia with drone attacks on Sunday, the group’s Al-Masirah TV said.

Iran-aligned Houthi group have launched several strikes targeting Abha and Jizan during the past two weeks.

And where was the vaunted American air defense system?

After such reports, will American arms sales to admirers of donkeys and camels increase or decrease?

Posted by: John Smith | Jun 24 2019 5:10 utc | 188

PavewayIV @178--

Did you catch Zarif's Tweet I copy/pasted about the earlier violation of Iranian airspace via drone that they didn't shoot down? I think he said that to further send the message you ferreted out. Thanks! I just couldn't get the illogic of the P-8 out of my mind. And I still don't recall any Iranian mentioning that plane type, just that there was a "35" that wasn't killed. Seems your hypothesis is most likely!

Grieved @179--

Here's Zarif's tweet I mentioned to PavewayIV. If ROE are applicable everywhere equally, then why wasn't this other drone, or many previous drones, shot down? The scenario painted by PavewayIV makes more sense given the previous "refusal" to shoot down the trespassing drone. I expect something to happen tomorrow; but if not, I'll rehash to finds where the P-8 reference originated.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 24 2019 5:11 utc | 189

@ PavewayIV | Jun 24, 2019 12:28:45 AM #178

The other possibility re: the P-8A worth considering is that there was no P-8A involved in this incident at all. Why would Iran pick the seemingly random number of 35 out of thin air?

Brilliant conjecture! The Iranians must be expecting an eventual attack by stealth aircraft and will have been doing a lot of work trying to detect them. Is there any reason Russia and China might not throw some hints - or actual equipment - their way, for the payback to each could be enormous. I've read that the F-35 engine is about the brightest IR object around, and Iran might have the equipment to detect the infra red signal from the ground to supplement whatever radar signals they were getting.

Keyword "35" may be wrong, but it sure makes a lot of sense in terms of how everything has worked out. Losing an F-35 would surely crater the sales of the crap airplane, and the Trumpies would do anything to avoid that.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Jun 24 2019 5:19 utc | 190

Hello Fellow MoA barflies

This is my long awaited (by me if none else) report of success with neuromodulation (neurofeedback and more) therapies.

I have had 231 therapy sessions with 3 providers over the past 3-4 years where most clients are better in 20 - 40 sessions using neuromodulation therapies. As a 70 year-old worst case (TBI & infancy trauma) lab rat of the neuromodulation based mental health paradigm and associated therapies who is healing beyond expectations, I am beyond happy and want the world to wake up from the drug addled mental health paradigm and associated addiction for profit nightmare.

The link above is to a new presentation I gave this past weekend and expect to evolve. One of my goals is to give it to the neurology department of Kaiser Permanente who initially told me that I didn’t have a brain injury because of my high functionality and when proven otherwise said they didn’t have anything to offer me.

The amazing part of what I am learning is that most medical professionals are being kept totally in the dark about the no longer valid underpinnings of the Western mental health paradigm…..more immoral lies and deceit by the profit based society that the West manifests

Profit should never be part of the provision of health care. To think now, knowing what healing these therapies can provide, I am incensed at the human toll that our greedy global private finance owners are inflicting on humanity. The steamroller of China cannot come too soon for my taste.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 24 2019 5:22 utc | 191

AP Politics:

A House subcommittee is taking up the question of studying reparations for slavery for the first time on Capitol Hill. Actor and activist Danny Glover and writer Ta-Nehisi Coates are among the witnesses expected to testify.

‘Why not now?’ Lawmakers debate reparations for slavery

The debate over reparations catapulted from the campaign trail to Congress on Wednesday as lawmakers heard impassioned testimony for and against the idea of providing compensation for America’s history of slavery and racial discrimination.

Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas, the sponsor of a resolution to study reparations, put a fine point on the discussion: “I just simply ask: Why not and why not now?”



Only for slavery? How about compensation for exterminating Native Americans?

Posted by: John Smith | Jun 24 2019 5:25 utc | 192

Regarding Dunford’s (alleged) role in holding back the froth-speckled moustache of Bombs-Away! Bolton: isn’t it so very heartwarming that men of Dunford’s stature grow both a backbone and a moral-compass once they are mere month’s away from retirement?

Mind you, in the long years before that long-awaited day, well, no, not so much.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Jun 24 2019 5:30 utc | 193

Bias, Lies & Videotape: Doubts Dog ‘Confirmed’ Syria Chemical Attacks

Disturbing new evidence suggests 2018 incident might've been staged, putting everything else, including U.S. retaliation, into question.

Posted by: John Smith | Jun 24 2019 5:32 utc | 194

Claims of American general regarding threat of Daesh in Afghanistan are baseless

The US commander of central command in Afghanistan – General Frank Mckenzie – in a statement with media in Germany, claimed that Daesh is a major threat in Afghanistan that threatens United States.

The statement comes while the so-called Daesh mischief that has been supported by America since first day of its emergence is not a great force that can be labeled a threat.

Mujahideen of Islamic Emirate and Afghan Nation have strongly resisted Daesh and purged many parts of the county from this miscreant, however with aerial support of American invaders and intelligence assistance of Kabul administration a small group of Daesh still exists in some parts of eastern Afghanistan.

Mujahideen of Islamic Emirate have just launched operations against Daesh in Nangarhar province to rescue the oppressed people from the evil of Daesh, but American invaders and their local puppets bomb Mujahideen military lines from time to time and carry out raids to create opposition to prevent full eradication of Daesh evildoers and provide it an opportunity of taking breath. If American generals really fear from Daesh, then why they are avoiding its elimination and are creating hurdles against Mujahideen operations.

Statements of American generals are opposite of their actions. Their occupation is practically providing Daesh a ground in Afghanistan and they are using its name and existence as an instrument.

Spokesman of Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan
Zabihullah Mujahid

10/10/1440 Hijri Lunar
23/03/1398 Hijri Solar
13/06/2019 Gregorian

Posted by: John Smith | Jun 24 2019 5:39 utc | 195

@ John Smith | Jun 24, 2019 1:25:02 AM #190

Color me really cynical about the "reparations". IMO the Democrats are hinting around at promises they have neither the intention nor the ability to fulfill. Every single slaver is dead. Every single slave is dead. If they want to do anything besides making meaningless gestures, let them start dismantling the laws and regulations currently on the books which do great harm to black Americans. Start off with full funding equality in all US schools and shutting down the prison systems which make huge profits for the Capitalists and produce such happy results for the Republicans.

As for the Native Americans, why not start with the Lakota - the Black Hills are an ongoing issue and were flat-out stolen.

If the scum-politicians can figure out some way to benefit, I'll expect to hear a hypocritical chorus from them about building a bunch of Holocaust-style memorials for the Neanderthals, a people so vilely exterminated by us Homo Sapiens.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Jun 24 2019 5:41 utc | 196

james and everyone

Iranian Armed Forces Chairman Major General Mohammad Baqeri shoots down the nonsensical "Iranian stealth attacks" theory saying:

“If the Islamic Republic of Iran were determined to prevent export of oil from the Persian Gulf, that determination would be realized in full and announced in public, in view of the power of the country and its Armed Forces.”

See: Pepe Escobar, June 20th

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jun 24 2019 5:45 utc | 197

Ecuador 'gives US military permission' to use Galapagos island as airfield

Criticising agreement, former president says Pacific archipelago is 'not for gringo use'

Ecuador has reportedly given the US military permission to use a Galapagos island as an airfield, angering critics in the South American country who say the agreement is unconstitutional.

Under an apparent deal - denied by the US - with Ecuador’s right-wing government, the Pentagon will use the tiny airport on San Cristobal island to “fight drug trafficking”, defence minister Oswaldo Jarrin said.

A US air force Boeing 707 plane carrying radar surveillance and a Lockheed P-3 Orion plane will patrol the Pacific Ocean, using the Galapagos as a launching off point, Latin American TV network Telesur reported.

But according to Ecuador’s 2008 constitution, “the establishment of foreign military bases or foreign installations for military purposes will not be allowed”.

It adds: “It is prohibited to cede national military bases to foreign armed or security forces.”

Posted by: John Smith | Jun 24 2019 5:48 utc | 198


Iran did mention the plane type - Magnier cites an Iranian general in his new piece:

///“Iran was about to hit and destroy the US Navy P-8 Poseidon spy and anti-submarine Boeing that was flying in the area when we received confirmation that the US had decided not to go to war and not to bomb any control and command or missile batteries positions, cleared or non-cleared, along the Straits of Hormuz. Had Trump decided otherwise, we had orders to hit several US and US allies’ targets and the Middle East would have been the theatre of a very destructive war with huge losses on all sides”, said an Iranian IRGC General.///

I always wondered why Trump bothered to confirm the information, as kind of excuse for not striking. With the guarantee mentioned by the IRGC general this makes sense.

Posted by: mk | Jun 24 2019 5:58 utc | 199

Regarding the P-8, if there really were 35/38 crew on board then we are soon going to know what that is all about.

Think about it: there are now thirty-plus crew who can’t NOT understand that they were being dangled in front of Iran’s SAMs like bait on a hook.

A few drinks in the bar later and they are going to be looking for a whistleblower/journalist/whatever to vent their anger.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Jun 24 2019 6:00 utc | 200

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