Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 04, 2019

U.S. - Turkey Spat Intensifies

The two tweets below are an update to the recent piece about Turkey's problems and how they will change the dynamics in the Jihadi infested Idleb governorate in Syria.

The U.S. threatens to hold back the F-35 fighter planes Turkey ordered, because Turkey also aquired the Russian made S-400 air defense system. We said that the consequence of that would be a further win for Russia:

Russia will be happy to supply Turkey with Su-35 fighter planes. They are arguable better than the F-35 and will likely be cheaper. But they will come with a political price.

The chances for that to happen grew after yesterday's short exchange between the vice presidents of the United States and Turkey. Vice President Pence spoke at the Atlantic Council about 70 years of NATO and said that Turkey risks its membership in NATO over the S-400 buy.

Pence also tweeted:


The response did not take long:


The Kurdish PKK/YPG forces the U.S. uses as proxy force to occupy northeast Syria are indeed legally terrorists as soon as they cross the border with Turkey. What is the value of NATO when it protects Turkey's enemies?

Pence threat is also stupid as there is mechanism to expulse any member from NATO. NATO members can only leave voluntarily.

Around the Kremlin one could hear the champagne corks plop.

The unprofessional and threatening behavior of Pence and other U.S. administration officials will cost the U.S.

As Andrei Martyanov recently wrote:

I can totally understand the irritation Washington feels about this whole situation, after all Turkey is a key NATO member with an actual army, and seeing NATO member going for such a weapon systems from Washington's prime time arch enemy--this is a no-no. But then comes this question: so, the United States will stop (will it?) F-35 and associated technology deliveries to Turkey, then what? Do we really want to open this can of worms? Turks are not idiots, by far--they can calculate and while Erdo might still do rapid 180 degrees maneuver, he also can not fail to consider the fact that instead of F-35 Turkey may get her hands on, say, some decent version of SU-35. Possible? Possible! How probable? I don't know. But Obama should have thought twice when unleashing, or pretending that he didn't know, a coup against Erdogan in 2016. Or, for that matter, a bloody overthrow of government in Ukraine in 2014. But current American elites have no concept of own actions having consequences.

h/t Syricide

Posted by b on April 4, 2019 at 15:50 UTC | Permalink


Is there any information that the 2016 coup against Erdogan was a false flag?

Posted by: Ronald | Apr 4 2019 15:54 utc | 1

thanks b... i was watching this and pointing out how erdogan wouldn't be cowed by the ultimatum... instead they tossed one back at the bully.. turkish folks are tough people and erdogan is slippery and tough.. as for the can of worms on the 2016 coup, i think it is a mixed bag and am not convinced of the surety of it, only that turkey was very obviously able to capitalize on it.. so, just how much of a sure thing it was, verses how much of a set up false flag it was - is still on ongoing question..

any further erosion of the usa/turkey relationship would be good for syria and russia.. i am hoping for that..

Posted by: james | Apr 4 2019 15:59 utc | 2

Regarding the coup, the Russians were sure adept at capitalizing on it.

Posted by: morongobill | Apr 4 2019 16:07 utc | 3

The posting ended with
But current American elites have no concept of own actions having consequences.
I believe that the current GLOBAL elites do understand exactly what they are doing and the potential consequences to the ongoing existence of private finance.

The war that is being waged is an attempt to keep private finance in charge of our world and they are losing I am pleased to report

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 4 2019 16:11 utc | 4

Regarding the F-35, maybe Erdogan figures **one** Turkey is enough.

Posted by: Capn Mike | Apr 4 2019 16:11 utc | 5

Erdoggie will do what brings him the fatter pay check. If the US offered him a few billion in forgivable loans to get Thadd or what ever they can buy from toys r US he will go for that and pocket the billions.. Dont think security is much of a priority on the list of things. Otherwise he would have looked at the examples of pakistan and afghanistan and wonder if his markets are going big bada boom every other day.

Posted by: Igor Bundy | Apr 4 2019 16:44 utc | 6

It's clear that USA is determined to use it's soft power to the maximum extent so Turkey's economic problems will likely intensify as conflict with US/NATO intensifies. How defiant will Turkey be when Turks economic hardship strikes?

Despite Erdogan's bitching, he actually benefits from US/SDF/Kurd occupation of Northeast Syria as well as Israeli occupation of Golan Heights because he it appears that he wants to annex Idlib, Afrin & Manjib.

To continue his control of Northwest Syria, he's gotta placate Putin while hinting that he could turn back the West if Russia & Syria moves against Idlib.

Erdogan will play both sides . . . until he can't. He was forced to turn toward Russia due to the Russian economic sanctions imposed after Turkey shot down a Russia military plane. Putin hoped that turn would be permanent. But will Erdogan be forced back to the West due to Western sanctions?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 4 2019 17:00 utc | 7

The Kurdish PKK/YPG forces the U.S. uses as proxy force to occupy northeast Syria are indeed legally terrorists as soon as they cross the border with Turkey.

Presumably the intended meaning was that they are defined as terrorists under Turkish law - but either they are terrorists or they are not terrorists, irrespective of whether they cross the border or not. Under Turkish law they are terrorists whether in Syria or in Turkey. Under Saudi law presumably not in either case. (Under US law, I think the PKK used to be classed as terrorists, until Obama removed them from the list).

Posted by: BM | Apr 4 2019 17:21 utc | 9

Careful, b--if you say the US can't kick countries out of NATO, the next thing you'll be saying the US can't choose to remove the presidents of foreign countries and replace them with their hand-picked patsy.

Posted by: worldblee | Apr 4 2019 17:22 utc | 10

Turkey is a sovereign state and whether we like or don't like the very mercurial Erdogan there is a bigger issue: that Turkey is making a turn to the coalescing multifarious East.

The Erdogan reign will eventually end but Turkey will have hitched its future to the rising wave of prosperity and growth coming from the East. Turkey is nearly in the center of the BRI between Europe and Eurasia.

There is a very dangerous enemy of a future prosperous Turkey: the US that is doing all it can to spike the BRI and start wars to create the chaos that it loves to take advantage of.

Posted by: AriusArmenian | Apr 4 2019 17:24 utc | 11

Sometimes I think Trump is Ragnar Danneskjold.

Posted by: TJ | Apr 4 2019 17:29 utc | 12

snake @8--

Unfortunately, PressTV doesn't provide a link to the source of Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman Hami Aksoy's comments so we can see their context since he's the article's primary source. That publicly made comments after such meetings are "diplomatic" and don't reveal stark differences is often the case. That Pompeo and Pence are bombastic and aggressive is their norm, while remaining diplomatic is a sign of Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu's professionalism. The portrayal is also likely prompted by editorial direction given the state of relations between Turkey and Iran and the Outlaw US Empire. That's my interpretation.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 17:42 utc | 13

Tweeting direct from NATO meeting provides inside details not found in press articles, particularly the NATO talking-point ending. IMO, the tweeter Mehta was right to highlight this exchange:

"Bennan: Do you know what the US policy in syria is?
"Çavuşoğlu: No, and this is the problem.

"He points to different statements from WH, Pentagon, CENTCOM, State. 'There is no clear strategy. This is the problem.'"

Further on:

"Wow. Çavuşoğlu just compared Turkey to Ukraine, saying Ukraine let itself be told it had to decide between West and Russia, and look what happened; Turkey cannot be forced into same choice."

Please take the few minutes to read.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 18:06 utc | 14

Pence threat is also stupid as there is mechanism to expulse any member from NATO. NATO members can only leave voluntarily.

Since when this stopped the USA?

The reason Turkey won't exit NATO are many. Among them:

1) Turkey's economy is in meltdown. It only didn't collapse yesterday because, luckily, Turkey has only "burnt" one third of its Dollar reserves. For comparison, the usurper government which toppled Dilma Rousseff burnt almost 50% of Brazil's then gigantic US$ 795 billion -- only to try to keep interest at a staggering 9.5% rate. Lucky for the Turkish people, Erdogan survived the 2016 coup, but he was already trounced in the three main cities and those reserves won't last forever. Time is in favor of the Americans in this case;

2) Contrary to, e.g. China and Russia, Turkey has a strong pro-USA political-popular base. It really doesn't need to topple Erdogan through a violent coup (Obama made an unforced error in 2016) in order to install a puppet government in Turkey;

3) The USA has the IMF. The IMF is the only institution which can do regime change and nobody will question. Erdogan is, for now, refusing its "aid", but he's just one man. That means that, even if Turkey remains with an Islamist (Ottomanist) or end up electing a neutral government, the Americans will still be capable of exerting formidable pressure;

4)Turkey is, perhaps, the geostrategically most important individual country for NATO. If the Americans still dream of defeating and balkanizing Russia through a hot war, then the path will go through Turkey and the Bosphorus. It is not on rogue POTUS or Veep who will change that.

Posted by: vk | Apr 4 2019 18:07 utc | 15

Thank you b. I think I heard those corks popping from here.

Very well put. The US only sees other nations, even it's allies, as threats or subjugants. And oh, the chaos. When the alternative is prosperity, little wonder that so many are looking East. I see it as a hopeful and promising realignment.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 4 2019 18:09 utc | 16

Turkey is allowed to grouse and employ rogue positions, but it will never leave NATO. Analysis to the contrary displays an utter naivete toward the inextricable symbiosis members in the alliance are subjected to; it cannot be undone.

Posted by: dilijan | Apr 4 2019 18:24 utc | 17

Touching on the F35/S400 kerfluffle, this might explain why the US is getting so bent over it
And I'm sure most barflies will remember this little gem; Birds:1, F35:0

Posted by: robjira | Apr 4 2019 18:27 utc | 18

i thought the f-35 was supposed to be a clusterf of a plane; if so there is probably little question the russian plane would be better.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Apr 4 2019 18:39 utc | 19

It's too bad there isn't a thread like this documenting Zionistan's alliance with terrorists portraying Turkey's deep and ongoing involvement. Hard to tell how much longer such duplicity will be tolerated by Russia and China.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 18:40 utc | 20

All the US needs to do is provide a US made air defense system to the Turks for free as they did for Saudi Arabia. The US taxpayers can pay for it.
Can understand why Turkey would purchase Russian made jets over F-35's (boondoggle). No one will purchase US made F-35 just like they will no longer purchase Boeing planes.
NATO should no longer exist. Should have been disbanded when the Warsaw Pact was. The US promised not to expand NATO but now it up against Russia's border.

Posted by: Joe | Apr 4 2019 18:55 utc | 21

Today the Valdai Club has held a discussion with three Turkish geopolitical experts called Russia-Turkey Relations: the Syrian Factor. Expert Discussion (video, starts at 10:15). If you don’t have the time to watch it in its entirety, I recommend watching 50:43–1:09:50 for a very clear explanation of the Turkish stance on Syrian Kurds and PYD, as well as 1:38:53–1:54:56 for the experts’ comments on the NATO-Turkey relationship and a possible closer alignment with Russia.

Posted by: S | Apr 4 2019 18:59 utc | 22

S @22--

Thanks for reporting on the Valdai Club discussion. It was bound to be helpful as I've not encountered one yet that wasn't.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 19:05 utc | 23

"But current American elites have no concept of own actions having consequences."
Well, since 2002, people made a lot about the neo-cons being heavily influenced by Leo Strauss. I think this is only part of it. These people seem to me to be just as heavily influenced by George Berekeley: things don't really exist, there's no causation, therefore there's no consequences to one's own actions.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Apr 4 2019 19:10 utc | 24

Leaving the politics aside, and the fact that the F35 is, most likely than not, a complete failure, isn't it sensible to not sell the F35 to someone who has the S-400? I mean the risk of having the S-400 analyzing your own planes signature and behavior is a real military concern in my view. Double so, if the F35 is only good on paper. Maybe in this instance the USA doesn't actually have any alternative.

Posted by: Tod | Apr 4 2019 19:26 utc | 25

Bolton unwittingly utters truism but has no idea that it applies to him and the Outlaw US Empire billions of times over:

"Corruption cannot lead to prosperity."

Nor can it field a competent military with functional weapon systems.

Another OT note, this one about the technical development of generation 6 military aircraft, Hypersonic and hydrogen fueled and most likely piloted by droids or remotely given speed and G-forces.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 19:50 utc | 26

One has to think the to do over the S-400 is a cover for Israel's attempt to prevent Turkey from getting the F-35. If Turkey had both the S-400 and the F-35, NATO would know what the Russian system can do against stealth aircraft, and could develop techniques to neutralize the S-400.

It is also significant that Turkey could not get the Patriot system or any other modern air defense system from Europe. This strongly suggest Israeli interference.

Posted by: bob sykes | Apr 4 2019 20:17 utc | 27

The US are threatening friend and foe alike,whereas those sanctions against their foe's are real, sanctions against NATO members can be counterproductive, for instance Germany being told to stop Nord Stream 2 and increase its contributions to NATO, 2% of Germany's GDP [4 trillion dollars] is an enormous amount of money to protect against a non existent enemy. The time will come when the US will be ignored, then, unless the US acts on those threats, its own credibility will be called into question, then the only way is down.

Posted by: Harry Law | Apr 4 2019 20:22 utc | 28

"Turkey is, perhaps, the geostrategically most important individual country for NATO."
It is just as important for 'anti-NATO.'
With the difference being that Russia, China and Iran take things seriously because they fear war. As to the US "..current American elites have no concept of (their?) own actions having consequences." While the rest of NATO isn't allowed to express opinions. The smart money is not on NATO.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 4 2019 20:33 utc | 29

If the F-35 really works as advertised, the U.S. should not worry about selling it to S-400-possessing Turkey. It’s not like Turkey is going to sell the S-400 radar measurements of the F-35 to Russia. Turkey needs these planes to protect itself from Russia, so why would they reveal the F-35 secrets to Russia?

Conversely, if the claims of the F-35 stealthiness are greatly exaggerated, then the S-400 deal presents a huge problem for the U.S. Turkey will quickly find out that the supposedly “invisible” F-35s are easily trackable by the S-400 radar at great distances, and refuse further purchases of the very expensive F-35, which, of course, will be noticed by other nations, leading to a house-of-cards collapse of the F-35 purchase agreements. Europe will order more Eurofighter Typhoons and Saab Gripens, Japan will focus on developing its own fighter, others will keep using the F-16.

Following this simple logic, we can conclude that the more hysterical the U.S. becomes on the issue of selling the F-35 to S-400-possessing Turkey, the more likely it is that the F-35 stealth capabilities are significantly overstated.

Posted by: S | Apr 4 2019 20:35 utc | 30


I agree with your comment. The U.S. is not liking that Erdogan is not putting all his eggs in the West's basket. The U.S. cannot seriously expect Erdogan not to leverage his options and lift Turkey's economy with Eurasian alliances while also purchasing military insurance from Russia. The economy is a fundamental part of Erdogan's survival and Russia has a stake in that survival therefore will probably act accordingly to capitalize on this rift in U.S./Turkey relations.

The U.S. has a serious self-inflicted problem here and is fed up with Erdo's justified paranoia and instead of treating Turkey, that has played an essential role in Nato's manoeuvres, with dignity, the U.S. is alienating it by undermining Erdogan's leadership and disrespecting the strategic significance of Turkey in AZ Empire's target Middle East and Russia ambitions. This outcome is all good for advancing multi-polarity and an opportunity to be seized.

The U.S. pushed the hubris envelope with Erdogan too far and now the mistrust on both sides is at a stalemate. In the meantime, Erdogan must work on improving Turkey's economy which will boost his popularity and ensure his political survival and keep leveraging to prepare for an uncertain future, because the U.S. and Israel will not give up on trying to replace him. However, realistically, despite what he does to prepare for the worst, my feeling is that Erdogan will not get off the fence, and would rather remain on neutral territory for the foreseeable future using both sides to sustain this position, save for an unpredictable event that would force him off this temporary safe zone and pull him convincingly over to one of the two sides. Which begs the question: How long can this stalemate of mistrust last and who will risk seizing the gambit successfully? Erdogan is aware of just how geographically strategic Turkey is to NATO, and specifically, the AZ Empire, and how inconvenient he is to them. He has no choice but to prepare for the worst just as the U.S. has no choice but to block the F-35s with the red line not the acquisition of the S-400, but maybe the next step. This is a real impasse.

Posted by: Circe | Apr 4 2019 21:04 utc | 31

Thank you for those links. I've read the Strategic Culture article before but I appreciated reading it again. The second link was a good reminder too - the difference between rumor and fact.

The link takes me to a message that the page doesn't exist.

After re-reading the Strategic Culture article linked @18 I had the same thought of the similarities between the F-35 and the 737 MAX, and the correlation between the Pentagon and Boeing.

I agree with your conclusion but what has Russia done that Turkey needs militarily protection from it?

dilijan@17, Tod@25
You both expressed a sentiment that seems very fatalistic to me.
There is an alternative, there is always a choice. The US could stop being a bully and trying to rule the world. It could pull back militarily and redirect it's efforts toward fixing it's own internal problems instead of trying to control everybody else's business. Nobody is threatening the US, the US is a really big part, but not the only part, of a really big problem and a very real threat to world peace and to the future. There is a choice- it's own primacy against everything and everyone else. That bullshit of no options is nothing but a smoke screen to hide a calculated decision.

Thanks to all for the comments, info, and perspectives.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 4 2019 21:36 utc | 32

Kitty @31--

It's very fishy. Tom's site's been attacked and taken down before, but I've never seen the same screen message you did and his site's one of the first I visit daily--it was up and running fine yesterday with Tom's usual fundraising appeal. I was under the impression that he owned his own domain and thus doesn't have an "account" as such. I don't subscribe to his newsletter, which would presumably be delivered independent of the website. Since Net Neutrality no longer exists, his site may have become one of the first casualties of that change by Trump's FCC.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 21:36 utc | 33

What are you basing that on, that there is strong US support among the Turkish population? I don't know what the Turkish people think, but that seems surprising to me. Surely they are aware of the kind of crap the US is getting up to. What would be the basis for their support?

Kitty and Karlof1
That is very troubling, I visit the site frequently.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 4 2019 21:46 utc | 34

mourning dove @32--

The thread's still there and Partisangirl's Twitter's still alive. Try this link as I see there's a difference in the basic nature of the url as if it was hacked after being posted. I checked link during preview and it works.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 21:47 utc | 35


tom feeley twitter comment

Posted by: Circe | Apr 4 2019 21:58 utc | 36

Circe @36--

Thanks for that. I didn't think to see if Tom had Twitter. Seems it's as much a mystery to him as it is to us.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 22:12 utc | 37

to Kitty, Karlofi and the others who have noticed Info Clearing House is down. It has been down since fairly early this AM
(ET - US) Rather worrisome. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but they have been posting some rather strong pieces lately - including work by our own excellent b. Also troubling is the increased pressure on Julian Assange and now Chelsea
Manning - héros both.

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Apr 4 2019 22:31 utc | 38

BUT What about the Saudi Model???

Whenenver anyone suggests that we should stop supplying bombs and military equipment to the Saudis who are murdering Yemenis, moralists like Mike Pence, Pompeo, and the rest of the religious right thunder, 'THEY WILL BUY ARMS FROM THE ROOOSHINS!'

So it is quite funny that they are willing to play hardball with the Turks.

Posted by: Christian J Chuba | Apr 4 2019 22:37 utc | 39

Thank you, that link worked fine for me. My phone is a pos so that was probably the problem with the first link.

This is kinda off topic, but historically connected to the current events of today's post. I finished J.M.N. Jeffries The Palestine Deception and I highly recommend it. Reading it, Jeffries reminded me so much of John Pilger -speaking truth to power clearly and without equivocation. He provides a detailed and thoroughly researched account of the period between 1915-1923 up to the time of the books publishing in 1939. It provides a crucial context for today.
Reading it, there were several places where I had to stop and look in to a few things, not being very familiar with the era, but there was one sentence that stopped me dead in my tracks. I sat there staring at it looking for an interpretation that was something other than literal because it completely contradicted my previous understanding and prompted my question on yesterday's thread about information about how Saudi Arabia became pro-Zionist.
The sentence in question followed a very brief reporting of Ibn Saud overthrowing King Hussein and capturing Mecca. His statement was to the effect of the Palestinians were just as safe with Saud as they had been with Hussein. WTF? So I looked into it a little, an article from the FDR library stated that Saud was adamant in his refusal to accept the Zionist project. The Wikipedia article about his immediate successor, while evading a direct mention of it, did acknowledge that he was also adamantly opposed to Zionism, that Nasser was one of his closest associates and that he enacted the first oil blockade against France and England. His politics were anti-imperial and pro Arab independence. I'm really interested in what happened between then and now that explains such a drastic turnaround and has resulted in the current Saudi regime and policies. I can easily imagine what happened, maybe I'm more curious about the how of it. It seems relevant to me. So again, if anyone has anything to contribute, I would really appreciate it.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 4 2019 22:45 utc | 40

Turkey has problems growing its economy. Each time it attempts a credit surge, it ends up with a credit bubble, an economic downturn, and a further depreciation of lira. The admittance of Eastern European countries to the EU and free-trade agreements with countries like Ukraine are eroding Turkey’s traditional role of cheap labor/cheap goods supplier to the EU. It’s time to try something new.

Turkey should follow a simple mercantilist strategy: reduce its imports and increase its exports. One of the ways it can reduce its imports is by buying cheaper military equipment from Russia (fighter jets, tanks, submarines, etc.). Turkey won’t even need dollars/euros for that. It can start accepting payments in roubles from Russian tourists (Turkey is the top destination for Russian tourists), as well as for its agricultural sales to Russia. These roubles can then be utilized to purchase Russian weapons. Thus, both Russia and Turkey will be able to completely bypass Western sanctions. Turkey can also purchase cheaper Russian regional jets SSJ-100 and MC-21 (when it’s ready).

Similarly, Turkey can grow its exports by joining EAEU. Russia is interested as that will increase the economic bloc’s bargaining power, as well as make such projects as the wide-body jet IL-96-400M (IL-496) economically viable. Turkey will, of course, be included in the supply chains of various Russian projects. It may even be included in the military projects if it leaves NATO and joins ODKB, although I suspect Russia wants Turkey to remain in NATO to act as a spoiler.

Posted by: S | Apr 4 2019 22:49 utc | 41

Speaking of Info Clearing House and my prior remark about Julian Assange - there is a breaking news story on telesur concerning a message from wikileaks that Julian Assange will be expelled "within hours or days" Yes, this kind of drama has occurred before -- John Pilger, who is one of the stalwarts at Info Clearing House, has been making big waves lately in support of Julian, as have many others.

I am now forced to confess that I don't know how to create the link. You may all now heap aspersions in my general direction. The thought that I might - yikes - screw up the page formatting is just too much. As Duke Ellington said = you're all too hip. I just wouldn't dare....=

Posted by: Miss Lacy | Apr 4 2019 22:53 utc | 42

Miss Lacy @44--

Wikileaks Breaking News!

This is what you alluded to:

"BREAKING: A high level source within the Ecuadorian state has told @WikiLeaks that Julian Assange will be expelled within "hours to days" using the #INAPapers offshore scandal as a pretext--and that it already has an agreement with the UK for his arrest."

There's more in the resulting thread.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 4 2019 23:26 utc | 43

Miss Lacy
I feel you, I'm kind of a technophobe. I know what I know, and it isn't much. If you are worried about breaking up the formatting, just hit the preview button before you post to make sure that it looks normal and doesn't run across the screen. Otherwise just copy and paste the link.
I see karlof1 linked to the twitter announcement, this is the article -

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 4 2019 23:39 utc | 44

@ mourning dove with suggested commenting etiquette to Miss Lacy

I hope you notice that b provides the proper formatting for HTML links on his web site and it is my experience here that your suggested solution does not always works, unlike a properly formatted link which must also be tested

I stopped being a lazy commenter when I was bitten and had to apologize for being lazy because I know how.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Apr 4 2019 23:51 utc | 45

An overwhelming case of hubris. If the USA was a person you would say they have been watching too much Fox news.

Posted by: steve | Apr 4 2019 23:53 utc | 46

Rather doubt any native-English speaking media is covering this development, although both Sputnik and RT have published articles. There's absolutely no legal justification for Ecuador's actions as they offend its own domestic law as well as numerous international treaties/laws. Lots of bots and a few deluded individuals on the twitter thread I linked.

The number of overtly lawless nations continues to grow in the shadow of the international leader, the Outlaw US Empire--UK, Zionistan, Ukraine, Brazil, Ecuador, Australia, Canada, France, Saudi Arabia. A useful listing would be those nations that illegally recognized Guaido. Perhaps they should be called the Anti-Truth Axis, or something similar. The lines seem to be drawn even sharper as you cannot have international law and thus sovereignty without truth; so, it ought to be in both China, Russia and the Multinational seeking nation's interest to support Julian Assange and the Truth he represents in his person and his actions.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 5 2019 0:02 utc | 47

psychohistorian & all
Please forgive me in advance if I ever screw up the formatting. I have no idea how to properly format a link and my brain recoils at the mention of 'properly formatting'. Yikes!

Miss Lacy & all
I hadn't heard of the INS papers before but this article gives a good overview.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 5 2019 0:08 utc | 48

S @ 43:

It would be in Turkey's interest to remain in NATO because Article 5 is its insurance against being invaded by the US.

If the US did indeed attack Turkey - even Turkish jets pounding SDF forces in Syria - then all other NATO members and any NATO associates would be in a complete quandary because they would be compelled to assist Turkey.

Posted by: Jen | Apr 5 2019 0:14 utc | 49

Roza Shanina
I hope you see this, the Ilan Pappe book that you recommended arrived today. I have only looked at the photographs but haven't started it yet, after dinner I will. Thank you again, I'm looking forward to reading it.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 5 2019 0:16 utc | 50

S @22

The comments at the end about how Turkey can maintain good relations with NATO and at the same time develop cooperation with Russia is clearly nonsense. NATO whole reason for existence now is as an anti-Russia military alliance. Pence is absolutely right about that ... you cannot be a member of NATO and develop close cooperation with Russia. At least in the eyes of NATO (i.e. the US) Russia is the enemy.

Posted by: SteveK9 | Apr 5 2019 0:20 utc | 51

Hoy! Yankee. Please to be taking yourself to where the sun don't shine. End of Ministry Communique. "Just shive off. Maybe to Cleveland.

Posted by: Robert McMaster | Apr 5 2019 0:21 utc | 52

As you can see above the comment box, you enter < then the letter a followed by a space then href followed by =" then the url/http address followed immediately by "> then some text describing the link's nature closed by < then / followed by a> without any spaces. During Preview, the link can be tested by opening it in another window or tab. Collapsing the url in that manner doesn't disturb the page's formatting. After doing it several hundred times, it will become natural.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 5 2019 0:32 utc | 53


Then as I noted above, Pence is being 100% hypocritical when saying that as the Outlaw US Empire is absolutely 100% dependent on Russia for heavy lift rocket motors. And then there's the ISS partnership and other areas of joint cooperation.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 5 2019 0:41 utc | 54

Wow, I was trying to be polite. I don't feel a need to justify myself to you, I'll only say that you have misinterpreted me.

Thank you for the instructions. I'll have to take a look at that when I'm in the same frame of mind that is required for me to do math that is more than rudimentary, which is not at the moment. Something like that, I have to work up to, mentally and psychologically. Thank you though, I do appreciate it. Looks like you've made it as simple as possible. I really am a technophobe but I'm also willing to learn. Thanks

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 5 2019 0:50 utc | 55

Posted by: Ronald | Apr 4, 2019 11:54:56 AM | 1

Is there any information that the 2016 coup against Erdogan was a false flag?

Why The Failed Turkish Coup Attempt Wasn’t A «False Flag» Power Grab By Erdogan

The Coup of July 15th 2016: Erdogan and his Shadow

Posted by: John Smith | Apr 5 2019 0:53 utc | 56

Pence went after Germany as well..

Pence excoriated Germany for not spending more on defense. “More of our allies are now meeting their commitments, but still others are falling short. And, as we all acknowledge, Germany is chief among them,” he said...

Pence said that if Germany persists in building the Nordstream 2 energy pipeline, which would bring gas from Russia to Germany, it could, as Trump has said in the past, “turn Germany’s economy into literally a captive of Russia.”

“It is simply unacceptable for Europe’s largest economy to continue to ignore the threat of Russian aggression and neglect its own self-defense and our common defense at such a level,” said Pence, “and it’s also wrong for Germany to allow itself to become energy dependent on Russia.”


They are really throwing their weight around and it smacks of desperation. They are fighting over weapons sales and natural gas sales. Something big is boiling under the surface to push this hard for a war with Russia.

Russia would not be running pipelines around the Ukraine if they thought they could get the Ukraine back in their orbit. Turkey would probably be buying the SS 400 if they did not think the US tried to take out their leader and Germany will not pay double for natural gas from the US.

I do not think all this bluster is going to move anybody. It all looks very ugly going into the future. In fact, it could push Germany, Russia, and Turkey into each others arms. It would be an economic powerhouse well connected and well resourced.

Great links, thanks.

Posted by: dltravers | Apr 5 2019 1:13 utc | 57

times of is real

Leaked report: Israel acknowledges Jews in fact Khazars;

Posted by: monty double | Apr 5 2019 1:30 utc | 58

SteveK9 @57, karlof1 @60

I second the interpretation that being a full NATO member and cooperating closely with Russia are mutually exclusive. It was mentioned before that Turkey could use the S-400 to analyze the F-35. So far, it has neither system, and I don't see any chance of it getting both. It's either or.

The ISS (remember that strange hole?) cooperation is secondary imo. If 'necessary', it will be ended.

Posted by: smuks | Apr 5 2019 1:34 utc | 59

What a thought -Germany and Turkey added to the Rebel Alliance. That would be game changing. One can hope. As b said, there isn't provision for expelling a NATO member, even an attempt could render NATO completely obsolete by collapsing it's very structure. It's a hope mixed with dread for me, it seems clear that WWIII is the objective, to my mind anyway. I don't know how else to explain everything that's happening.

they came... @66
Frightening isn't it? I read about that recently, it seems to be about Paris for the course though -every bit of it is deranged. I have limited data on my phone, I rarely watch videos so I can't comment on the link, but yeah, freaky shit.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 5 2019 1:59 utc | 60

dammit, that was supposed to be par, not Paris.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 5 2019 2:02 utc | 61

Information Clearinghouse RIP? I hope not..

Apologies for the OT, but, is this the destruction of Net Neutrality rearing it's ugly head?

Posted by: ben | Apr 5 2019 3:19 utc | 62

Erdogon needs the S400 to offset the planned Turkish spring that Washington has in the works...

Posted by: Ariel | Apr 5 2019 3:32 utc | 63

Turkey fears that the US will do a Venezuela or Iran on Turkey with economic and financial siege including a cyber attack. The US will also support the PKK as good measure. Put an embargo on spare parts for its US military hardware. They could also do a trade embargo as well. In this event, Turkey is more like Venezuela than Iran because Erdogan purged the military traitors who participated in the US backed coup.

Posted by: El Cid | Apr 5 2019 4:49 utc | 64

Does Erdogan want a relationship with someone just waiting for the opportunity to overthrow your government, or do you want a relationship with someone who alerted you to the overthrow of your government. Who is a better partner? Who do you trust more. Who respects national sovereignty more?The United States doesn't forgive nor forget.

Posted by: El Cid | Apr 5 2019 4:58 utc | 65

El Cid @72&73--

As I wrote above, Turkey has long faced two fronts and is now playing off those same two fronts. When you consider fundamental national interests, it is to the East and the Eurasian concept that is most suitable. A major component, Turk Stream, goes online during 4Q 2019 as I mention above. Turkey also wants to join SCO, EAEU and BRICS; that ought to tell you something. Turkey within NATO will soon become a nightmare for all the nations that have alienated it since it first tried to become an EU member--which is all of NATO. Like a matryoshka doll, Turkey can easily become a threat within a threat within a threat--etc.

Posted by: karlof1 | Apr 5 2019 5:55 utc | 66

ben 70 "Information Clearinghouse RIP?"
Any idea what servers or platforms he was on. Account suspended sign here in oz also.
Information Clearing House was the one aggregator of non propaganda news I knew of on the web. I guess he was on a US platform or US owned server.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Apr 5 2019 7:15 utc | 67

@ by: Ronald @ 1 Is there any information that the 2016 coup against Erdogan was a false flag? ==>followed by the
post of links by John Smith @62

The sudden appearance of a private media produced claim @ 53 suggesting private gain wrong doing by Maduro at a time a struggle for national independence is threatened suggest possible political stunts similar to the Muller-Trump fox-in-the-hen-house operation just terminated at the USA in America.

Even if the Maduro involvement in a private venture for profit claim is valid, the timing and publication is highly suspect and suggest the claim of "private use wrongdoing" should be aggressively litigated in a court system outside of the jurisdiction of any nation state power or organization.. maybe a human rights court with universal jurisdiction, something like the ICC... IMO,

To that end, how do you think a universal worldwide tax on humanity, of say $1.00 per human per year, to be paid directly from the people of the nation states, to the court, to support the court would fare? That would be a $7 billion a year court budget to establish and support a court system capable to prosecute government tainted actors who engage in corruption. Such a court could defend human rights and expose and punish the use of governments everywhere for private or special use or wrongful gain if such operates under and happens under color of a government that governs humans.

Establishing an independent global court with universal jurisdiction would also eliminate the need for the masses to overthrow by violence corrupt or crime ridden governments, instead the human rights court could weed out the criminals, individually, one by one. and the actions of the court would instill real fears in those who operate, manage or use government or media in ways that abuse human rights. Conceptually, nation states have been used to divide, conquer and control humanity. Of course such a court could adopt the Chinese method of punishment for corruption, life extinguishment when proven guilty, avoiding cost and politics associated to long term punishments.

The problem in all of the history of the nation state system (socialist, communist, markist, facist, democratic, autocratic, etc) is that the governed have not had any way to extract the truth and to prosecute and punish the human rights abusers who use government or the taint of government to do their thing. Even in revolution the masses are kept fairly much in the dark.

I repost hopefully with permission from a prior MD MoA post to make it convenient and accessible here:
"I think it's a time of alignment, not just for Turkey, but for the world, for each of us." by: mourning dove @ 9 prior post

"a new form of relations and a different way of thinking." by: mourning dove @ 31 prior post

and congratulations to Morning Dove for organizing the meanings of the posts at 63 and 66. see 68.

finally, I too found Tom's site request to produce a webpage titled "Account Suspended". and message in the body of the page=> "This Account Has Been Suspended" <=for me Khoshoggi and Julain Assange comes to mind. any contact ? I recall he had real problems with his comment system..

Posted by: snake | Apr 5 2019 8:36 utc | 68

I read something fairly recently about Russia and China proposing an international body that has the power to enforce international law, either by reforming the UN or establishing an independent alternative. There were a large number of countries that support this proposal and they made a protest at the UN. I'll look for an article about it to make sure that I'm remembering it correctly. I'll post a link when I find something, but it will be later today before I can do that.

I'm glad if you get something out of my comments, I'm flattered that you reproduced some of my thoughts. Thank you.

Posted by: mourning dove | Apr 5 2019 10:02 utc | 69

American military procurement Nazis to Turkey: No F-35s for you!! In other news, two aircraft repair schools in Turkey close their doors.

Posted by: therobin | Apr 5 2019 13:35 utc | 70

Thanks JS 56 for the following links. But my sense is that these are not dispositive. My sense now is that it was either an Erdogan inspired false flag, or it was as the first link says, a desperate US attempt to overthrow him, as Erdogan claims.

Is theWhy The Failed Turkish Coup Attempt Wasn’t A «False Flag» Power Grab By Erdogan

The Coup of July 15th 2016: Erdogan and his Shadow

Posted by: Ronald | Apr 5 2019 19:38 utc | 71

Snake - re "I too found Tom's site request to produce a webpage titled "Account Suspended". and message in the body of the page=> "This Account Has Been Suspended" <=for me Khoshoggi and Julain Assange comes to mind. any contact ? I recall he had real problems with his comment system."

ICH has been taken down several times since I've been a subscriber, and videos that Tom posted were removed. I believe that the CIA has been suspected in past suspensions, which wouldn't be a surprise. Tom keeps everything safely backed up and can reload the lot. He is currently looking for help with finding a reliable host for his site.

Posted by: Smoking Eagle | Apr 6 2019 17:40 utc | 72

It's good to be the King!

Erdogan seeks to overturn election results: Erdogan Demands Istanbul Vote Probe

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Apr 8 2019 14:26 utc | 73

There is an alternative, there is always a choice. The US could stop being a bully and trying to rule the world. It could pull back militarily and redirect it's efforts toward fixing it's own internal problems instead of trying to control everybody else's business.

Mourning Dove
In principle, yes there is, but in practice, I think that would need an extremely powerful and able leader to cut through all the multiple webs of bribery and corruption that underpin the system for milking the taxpayers of the US and the Empire. There is just soooo much loot to be had, that anyone threatening it would be very much at risk of being JFKed, not by just one group but by many.
If anyone feels like having a go at it, (GOOD LUCK with that!)my advice would be that probably the paedophile scandal, that I feel certain is lurking just below the surface, would be the place to start.

Posted by: foolisholdman | Apr 11 2019 20:31 utc | 74

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