Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 27, 2019

Tit-For-Tat Bombing By India And Pakistan Could Escalate Towards A Nuclear War

Two nuclear powers are currently engaged in a tit for tat military exchange that could easily escalate into a nuclear war.

On February 14 a suicide car bomb hit a police convoy in Pulwama in the Indian controlled part of Kashmir. The suicide bomber was a local man. The Pakistan based terrorist group Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM) claimed responsibility and uploaded a video of the attacker.

General elections in India are due in May and the Hindu-fascist Indian government under Prime Minister Narendra Modi is under pressure. The incident in Kashmir led to violence of Modi followers against Kashmiri people. Pakistan denied any involvement in the incident and called for a joint investigation.

After the suicide attack Modi immediately threatened to retaliate against Pakistan. He did so yesterday. In an elaborate operation Indian fighter jets released stand-off weapons, purchased from Israel, against an alleged JeM training camp near Balakot. India made explicit that it hit a "non-military" target.


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While the Indian jets did not enter Pakistan's airspace the target was within Pakistan's undisputed borders. Small scale ground combat between Indian and Pakistani at the line of control in Kashmir is nothing unusual. But the air attack exceed the limits both sides so far held to.

Pakistan saw the incident as a failure of its deterrence. India has about 140 nuclear weapons while Pakistan has about 100. Pakistan's conventional military is inferior to India's. It therefore follows a doctrine of asymmetric escalation which allows for nuclear strikes in response to conventional military attacks.

Pakistan could not leave the hit within its own borders without response. Not responding would have set a precedence and invite further Indian attacks. Earlier today two Pakistani J-17a jets flew into the airspace of Indian controlled Kashmir and released bombs against what its military claimed to be a "non military target":

We have no intention of escalation, but are fully prepared to do so if forced into that paradigm. That is why we undertook the action with clear warning and in broad daylight.

Two rather antique Indian MIG-21 jets scrambled to chase the Pakistani fighter jets away. They were lured into the Pakistan controlled air space and both were shot down. Pakistan published pictures of one of the downed jets and claimed that the other one fell into an Indian controlled area. An Indian pilot ejected from his plane and was captured by Pakistani troops who had trouble (vid) to keep the locals from lynching him. The captured pilot was blindfolded and interrogated (vid). He identified as Wing Commander Abhi Nandan, Service No: 27981, and did not respond to further questions. His father is said to be a retried Air Marshal of the Indian air force. The pilot now seems to be fine (vid). He thanked the Pakistani military for rescuing him from the mob.

Air traffic over Pakistan and west India was shut down.


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In a TV speech Pakistan's Prime Minister Imran Khan offered talks with India and urged deescalation:

"The sole purpose of our action [today] was to convey that if you can come into our country, we can do the same. That was the only purpose of what we did," he said, referring to the engagement of non-military targets across the LoC.
...
"It is important where we go from here. From here, it is imperative that we use our heads and act with wisdom," he continued.

"All wars are miscalculated, and no one knows where they lead to. World War I was supposed to end in weeks, it took six years. Similarly, the US never expected the war on terrorism to last 17 years.

"I ask India: with the weapons you have and the weapons we have, can we really afford such a miscalculation? If this escalates, things will no longer be in my control or in Modi's," the prime minister continued.

"I once again invite you: we are ready. We understand the grief India has suffered in Pulwama and are ready for any sort of dialogue on terrorism. I reiterate that better sense should prevail.

"Let's sit together and settle this with talks," the prime minister concluded.

China, Russia and the United States have urged both sides to stand down and to deescalate the situation.

Meanwhile India falsely claimed that it shot down a Pakistani F-16 jet.

It will be up to Modi to take the next step. The captured pilot will complicate the issue for the Indian government. It must find a way to get him released.

That the Indian air force uses the antique MIG-21, which first flew in 1956, against state of the art Pakistani-Chinese F-17 again opens questions about Modi's corrupt deal to buy Rafale jets from France. As we discussed last September:

In short: The previous government signed a contract with France' Dassault to buy 126 Rafale jets for $10.6 billion. Thirty percent of the price would flow back from Dassault to the Indian state owned aviation manufacturer HAL, which would assemble most of the planes. Modi flew to Paris and changed the deal without the knowledge of his cabinet and the country's military. India will get only 36 Rafales but pay $8.7 billion for them. Thirty percent of the money would flow back to a private Indian company belonging to the largely bankrupt, privately held Reliance Group for unrelated projects and without any know-how transfer. How much Reliance, owned by the once very rich Ambani family, would hand over to Modi and his party is yet unknown. There are calls for Modi to step down which he is unlikely to do. The issue will escalate.

Not responding to today's attack will let Modi look weak and may well cost him his reelection. Responding with a new attack on Pakistan will gravely endanger both countries.

Posted by b on February 27, 2019 at 13:44 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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No doubt in my mind that this will get more serious. Hopefully not to the nuclear level.

Posted by: morongobill | Feb 27 2019 14:07 utc | 1

Meanwhile, the empire-in-decline has a hidden agenda:
US interested in dragging China into India-Pakistan row

Posted by: Ernesto Che | Feb 27 2019 14:10 utc | 2

No wonder Imran Khan talking like an adult whereas Modi running like headless chicken. The imprisoned pilot will certainly complicate the case. With Turkey by its side, the showdown will be no less Khassogi episode.

Posted by: KD | Feb 27 2019 14:20 utc | 3

Message to India & Pakistan: You would better be facing off in border ceremonies, not air raids

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1100756185513222144

Posted by: RT | Feb 27 2019 14:51 utc | 4

"Hindu-fascist"?

Is this the Empire's accepted term for India's leadership?

Hot button/buzz words- Trigger reactions

Coincidentally there was an oped (Evening Standard) calling for America under Trump to intervene to "keep the peace"
What else to do in the face of "Hindu fascism"?
Ignoring the myriad of terrorists groups that have long populated Pakistani territory, of course

Problem, reaction, solution.

Posted by: Penny | Feb 27 2019 14:55 utc | 5

Modi is a typical Right-wing crank with delusions of grandeur/ omnipotence.
Al Jazeera covered the aftermath of the ter'rist bombing in India. Kahn tried very hard to persuade Modi that Pakistan would cooperate in every possible way with India in tracking down the perps. But Modi summarily dismissed the offer and swore to attack targets in Pakistan. Khan warned him against unilateral military action and promised retaliation.
One wonders if Modi thinks this interim development is a 'win' for India and if so, how so?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 27 2019 14:56 utc | 6

KD "Imran Khan talking like an adult"

Is that what he was talking like?
Didn't seem that way at all

More like a challenge? A dare?
Flippin' the bird
whatever?

Posted by: Penny | Feb 27 2019 14:57 utc | 7

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/if-every-debate-about-us-interventionism-was-about-godzilla-instead-4374e861ef54

Person A: Wow, things are looking really bad in Venezuela right now.

Person B: Yeah.

Person A: All that poverty and unrest!

Person B: I know, it’s terrible.

Person A: You know what we should do?

Person B: Please don’t say send in Godzilla.

Person A: What? Why not??

Person B: Because he always makes things worse! You know that! Every time we send in Godzilla to try and solve problems in the world, he just ends up trampling all over the city, knocking down buildings and killing thousands of people with his atomic heat beam.

Person A: Maybe this time would be different though!
...

[copy of full Caity Johnstone post deleted - b]

Posted by: Arioch | Feb 27 2019 15:19 utc | 8

@7 Penny
I was referring to Imran's quote what B posted in this blog.
It says Imran extended his hand for a level dialogue but I have not seen a suitable reply from Indian side. Maybe they will reply after being constricted by the situation coming days.

Posted by: KD | Feb 27 2019 15:58 utc | 9

The USA authorities are howling hysterically about unproven claims that the Iranian Islamic Republic are busily developing nuclear weapons, despite the Iranians being subject to an intrusive verification regime. The International Atomic Energy Agency says the Iranians are complying. This, of course, means nothing to the American authorities, for whom facts do not matter.

Compare that attitude to that towards the Indians and Pakistanis, both of which were allowed to develop nuclear weapons without a whimper from either western media or governments.

That disgustingly complicit complacency may well come home to roost now.

Posted by: Ant. | Feb 27 2019 16:03 utc | 10

Re: #5 Penny - I think "Hindu-fascist" is an appropriate moniker for Modi, I haven't forgotten (and I doubt others have) that Modi's political rise started with the 2002 Gujarat riots where Chief Minister Modi gave tact permission for (or some have claimed directly organized) the Hindu violence against the Muslim minority in Gujarat, which left at between 1000 to 2000 dead (mostly Muslims). even if Modi is innocent of the most severe allegations, the speeches he gave before, during and after the riots and they outrageously inflammatory, not in the least bit calling for calm or reconciliation or peace (he was basically saying that the violence couldn't end until the Muslims had been taught a lesson)

Posted by: Kadath | Feb 27 2019 16:03 utc | 11

I have not followed India And Pakistan at all until yesterday due to being almost entirely focused on Syria and China over the past few years. And I have no personal support of either country.

In just the past day my impression is:

* India looks utterly and absolutely ridiculous to the outside world
* India's claims have been almost entirely demonstrated to be lies
* India's sneak attack on Pakistan so far looks like a bunch of incompetent pilots dumping their payload on an empty hillside and then fleeing back across the border
* India's subsequent claims about shooting down Pakistan aircraft have been shown to be lies and not only lies but dumb lies.
* Pakistan has been very consistent with their claims and social media posts have backed them up with on site confirmation

If the threat of a nuclear exchange wasn't so real it would laughable the way India has acted over the past day.

I was bewildered but not shocked to learn of the huge Israeli regime influence with the current Indian government.

Absolutely sickening.

But we have seen it all before from the Israeli regime:

* The childish attempts to hide their losses
* The absurd attempts at claiming that other countries don't have the right to respond to their aggression
* The ridiculous claims of successful attacks with abysmal real world performance of their weapons
* The juvenile attempts at PR on social media

Best case would be for India to accept the peace overture Pakistan has extended after the military smackdown they just dished out and the current government in India is replaced with something more sane.

Posted by: Rellis | Feb 27 2019 16:16 utc | 12

A nuclear war between India and Pakistan, in which half of their current nuclear arsenals would be detonated in their large cities, would put enough smoke in the stratosphere (from burning cities) to block about 10% of sunlight from reaching the surface of the Northern Hemisphere. The black smoke would be heated by the sunlight, producing a self-lofting effect, so it would remain above cloud level (in the stratosphere) for many years because it could not be rained out. The temperatures in the stratosphere would actually approach the boiling point of water, and this heat would lead to the destruction of much of Earth's protective ozone layer. UV Indices would greatly rise in both the Northern and Southern hemispheres. The loss of warming sunlight would also lead to the coldest average surface temperatures experienced in the last 1000 years in the Northern Hemisphere. This would lead to a widespread crop failures and a significant reduction in grain yields; it is predicted that 1 to 2 billion people would starve as a result.
See Climatic consequences of regional nuclear conflicts Multi-decadal global cooling and unprecedented ozone loss following a regional nuclear conflict Local Nuclear War, Global Suffering Catastrophic Climatic Consequences of Nuclear Conflict Nuclear Famine: One/Two Billion People at Risk War with 100 low yield nuclear weapons

Posted by: Perimetr | Feb 27 2019 16:20 utc | 13

Modi's fascism is hardly in doubt. The same might be said of Netanyahu's.
Both men are on the verge of major elections and both are playing the war card, wars which coincide with their domestic political agendas of racism and islamophobia. Killing Pakistanis, as muslims, is designed to rally popular support just as killing Palestinians is the issue around which the Israeli elections are centred.
It is no coincidence that the Indian Air force used Israeli supplied weapons-the alliance between the Zionist movement and Hindutva is a marriage made in Hell where caste rule and the principles of racial superiority are cherished.
'Western' complacence in the face of the complementary bigotries of the Israeli and Indian governments is explained by their service as bulwarks of imperialism and ideological enemies of equality and other socialist principles. It is one of the ironies of life under empire that a third pillar of imperialist policy is the nourishing of wahhabi bigotry aiming to employ a version of islam, as distorted as Hindutva and Zionism are from the principles of Hinduism and Judaism, not to defend muslims from their enemies but to defend imperialism from its victims.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 27 2019 16:21 utc | 14

@Ant #10

> were allowed to develop nuclear weapons without a whimper from either western media or governments.

Not quite so.

Actually, Pakistan got their nuclear tech (Uranium enrichment) from Netherlands.
There was an ex-Nazi physicist, one of many that was made working after WW2 towards restoring at least some Soviet economic and science scorched by Third Reich. He was assigned to help building Uranium Fluoride centrifuges there. When finally released home he memorized a lot of know-how and tried to establish Uranium enruichment facilities in Western Europe.

And for few years he worked in Netherlands. There one of his contractors was Pakistani refugee, who decided to copy know-how too, and would a Pakistan government change to his favorite clans - come back home brining U-F centrifuge technology with him. And so he did, except that Netherlands securities worked profesisonaly and arrested him red-handed with the stolen technology blueprints.

Kinda should ve the end here, but US CIA suddenly jumped into the game and coerced Netherlands to let the pakistani go and to give him compensation by providing him any other nuclear tech blueprints he would request. It took almost a year and european government was very against underground nukes proliferation, but they were just vassals and CIA was CIA, so eventually they complied and gave Pakistan all nuclear tech their refugee already stolen and all addendums he asked on top of it.

So, no, Pakistan was not "allowed to develop", he was "awarded" with nuclear tech by "western governments".

To put the cherry on top, once there was Nothern Korea and they wanted to have nukes too.
They build breeding gas-graphite reactor deriving from well-known British dual-use NPP design.
However after breeding the fissile material one yet has to extract it out of non-explosive debris, to "enrich".
And they did not had that technology. But they knew Pakistan has. And they knew Pakistan needs money, desperately. So Kim made Pakistan an offer hard to refuse and bought the copy of that very nuke technology CIA extorted from Netherlands government decade ago.

So if some American politician ever makes fuzz about North Korea having nukes - they better address their complains to Langley

Posted by: Arioch | Feb 27 2019 16:21 utc | 15

Kindly note that Indians struck within 4 miles of the Line of Control which separates the disputed regions of Kashmir, in the Balakot sector of Pakistani Kashmir which also has a namesake city in another province, the one which you mentioned in your analysis. These are two different places that should not be confused. There is no logical way in which Indian jets could have treaded 70-80 km into Pakistani territory and gone back in peace. Thanks and hopeful for peace but speaking from an area close to the Indian border in Pqkistan, things are looking grim even though PM Imran Khan repeated his offer for talks to India today.

Posted by: Fez Schon | Feb 27 2019 16:25 utc | 16

How many Nukes does Israel have? I love cukes! Wage Peace...

Posted by: chucknobomb | Feb 27 2019 16:27 utc | 17

Re: 17 chucknobomb,

India is estimated to have somewhere in the number of 100 to 140 bombs and Pakistan is estimated to have between 120 to 150

Posted by: Kadath | Feb 27 2019 16:33 utc | 18

Modi is a tool of the global private finance elite just like Trump and they are each playing their part

Got FEAR yet folks?

How much of your freedom and control over your life are you willing to give up for this fear?

Yes, India is a potential threat to China and this event shows me that Modi is like Turkey, playing both sides of the fence.

Unfortunately, I believe it is my country, America that has the most likely hood of using nukes, again.

We are all watching and participants in a major human event that is taking place. Flap your wings fellow butterflies, our future is at risk.

All this to keep the Western elite in control of society and the lifeblood of finance.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 27 2019 16:35 utc | 19

Oops, the last part of my comment was cut-off, Israel is believed to have between 200 to 400 nukes (mostly likely closer to 400)

Posted by: Kadath | Feb 27 2019 16:36 utc | 20

@ bevin | Feb 27, 2019 11:21:06 AM

It is one of the ironies of life under empire that a third pillar of imperialist policy is the nourishing of wahhabi bigotry aiming to employ a version of islam, as distorted as Hindutva and Zionism are from the principles of Hinduism and Judaism, not to defend muslims from their enemies but to defend imperialism from its victims.

Right on bevin!

Posted by: ex-SA | Feb 27 2019 16:40 utc | 21

Good background op/ed details Saudi and Outlaw US Empire links to these incidents. The conniving of the Empire shouldn't be discounted but suspected, IMO. Strategically, the Indo/Pak conflict is the most volatile area to roil and thus greatly destabilize China's BRI.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 27 2019 16:48 utc | 22

thanks b.. ditto @21 ex-sa quote of bevin's... that is so true.. when will it ever end??

Posted by: james | Feb 27 2019 16:52 utc | 23

I commented recently that Bhadrakumar's recent article on the Pulwama incident was out of touch with reality, and his accusations against Imran Khan were insanely unreasonable. Now after India launches jet fighter attacks on Pakistan sovereign territory and Khan reacts in such a wise and level-headed manner, Bhadrakumar's accusations are shown clearly for what they are.

Imran Khan's level-headed offers of talks are entirely consistent with his posture around the time of his election and reinforce the positive impression he gave then. For an elected politician, his is a rare and precious genuineness, in my opinion. The pragmatic approach he is putting foreward now was also part of his manifesto.

I sincerely hope that the egocentric right-wing nutter Modi gets thoroughly banished at the polls in May. From what I have heard alleged, that might depend on the software control of the electronic voting machines. The working classes, especially in Gujarat, according to what I have heard, are convinced the last election was fraudulent and demand a return to paper ballots.

Posted by: BM | Feb 27 2019 16:53 utc | 24

From what I recall Modi's popularity has never recovered from his disastrous demonetization scheme 2 years ago that harmed the Indian poor (including a significant portion of Modi's nationalist base). Whipping up a war is the traditional way weak governments in the empire of chaos bolster their support going into election, although he appears that Modi (like Isreali, the US, England & France before him), has simply blundered into an even worse crisis - still the ball is in his court, so let's see if he doubles down like a Neo-con or tries to negotiated a face-saving exit, like a sane politician - next 24 hours will be critical (but aren't they always!).

Posted by: Kadath | Feb 27 2019 17:02 utc | 25

One additional note about Pakistan's beatdown of India over the past day.

In Syria, the Israeli regime doesn't dare fly into Syrian airspace due to the state of the art air defense network. Instead the Israeli regime is forced to lob almost entirely ineffectual missiles from Lebanon like cowards. The Israeli regime attacks are so ineffectual against the Syrian air defense network that Syria has for the most part not bothered to respond.

Video after video from Syria shows their air defense network swatting 80, 90, and sometimes 100 percent of the Israeli regime missiles out of the air while Syrian stand around outside cheering the show. And the few times Syria has bothered responding to an Israeli regime attack with a small number of missiles we see leaked videos of Israelis fleeing like rats to hide in bunkers or sewers because their air defense network is such garbage.

Russian air defense tech, as demonstrated in Syria, has come so far that most of the world has not come to realize what a sea change has happened in modern warfare. Most of the mainstream media still believes the US regime can just sit idly off the coast of a county and casually lob a couple hundred cruise missiles with almost all of them hitting their targets and no fear of reprisal.

It is shocking to see India and Pakistan actually still scrambling jets to dogfight. Both countries should be able to afford the same tech Russia is using in Syria to secure their respective airspaces. We've left the era of human pilot dominance and entered the era of missile and to a somewhat lesser extent for now drone aerial combat.

With how old the jets being used by both countries it a damming indictment of their respective militaries that they have not established the same quality air defense network as Russia has in Syria and put an end to these idiotic cross border PR attacks that have grave consequences for both countries and the rest of the world.

Posted by: Rellis | Feb 27 2019 17:06 utc | 26

Good background op/ed details Saudi and Outlaw US Empire links to these incidents. The conniving of the Empire shouldn't be discounted but suspected, IMO. Strategically, the Indo/Pak conflict is the most volatile area to roil and thus greatly destabilize China's BRI.
Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 27, 2019 11:48:29 AM | 22

Exactly my thoughts, Karlof1. The US is the number one suspect pulling the strings of Pulwama, desperate to sabotage the nascent hints of Indian-Pakistani compromise born out of Imran Khan's election.

Posted by: BM | Feb 27 2019 17:15 utc | 27

Among the many India/Pakistan irritants, for well over half a century the unresolved issue of Kashmir has been festering.

J.K. Galbraith was US ambassador to India during the JFK presidency. Galbraith's '"Ambassador's Journal" often refers to the Kashmir problem.

March 4, 1963: "The State Department convened a meeting in London to talk about the Kashmir talks. ... I got a long and elaborate and meaningless telegram which said I should do what I had told them I was already doing."

March 7, 1963: "I have little hope of progress [being made in the forthcoming Kashmir talks].

March 12: "The fourth round of these dismal talks on Kashmir are now on.

April 5, 1963: "The [State] Department and the White House have been struggling for the last weeks on Kashmir. I have told them [the White House and State Dept.] that I will move the Indians if they will promise military aid.

Fast forward to now and one of the contextual changes that has taken place over the last decades is the huge effort at cultivating and empowering and deploying Jihadist mercenaries, head chopping wackos, Islamic extremists, etc by the United States especially; but with lots of accompaniment - eg. Israel and the UK and Saudi Arabia. Sometimes hard to distinguish now between home grown terrorism, western-stoked blow back terrorism, and deliberate attacks or false flags employing actual or the facade of Islamic terrorism.

Amitov Ghosh wrote a little gem of a book/precis - "Countdown" - on the Pakistan/India nuclear standoff; published 1999.
One of his findings based on interviews was that both sides had quite different and unrealistic ideas pertaining to the assumptions of the other side. Ghosh opined that had India not developed nuclear weapons, there would have been little incentive for Pakistan to follow suit.

There was also the inevitable hypocrisy of the nuclear powers in the West to India/Pakistan nuclear weapons:

Here is a passage near the end of Countdown where Ghosh reflects back on his reaction to the Indian and Pakistani nuclear test explosions, and the "chastisements adopted by many Western countries."

"Did they [Western nuclear powers] think that it had escaped the world's attention that between them the five peacekeepers of the United Nations Security Council still possessed tens of thousands of nuclear warheads?"

"So strong was my response against the implicit hypocrisy of the Western response that I discovered an unusual willingness in myself to put my own beliefs on nuclear matters aside. If there were good arguments to be made in defence of the Indian and Pakistani nuclear tests then I wanted to know what they were: I wanted to hear them for myself. What I heard was for the most part a strange mixture of psychologizing, grandiose fantasy and cynicism, allied with deliberate conjuring up of illusory threats and imaginary fears."

Posted by: Robert Snefjella | Feb 27 2019 17:20 utc | 28

Both of these political nations are just peacocking. MAD is alive and well. I think maybe the use of MiG21s was specifically chosen to emphasize Indian passivity in real terms. Dont lose sleep over this nonsense.

Posted by: dan | Feb 27 2019 17:28 utc | 29

@26

Pakistani J7 fighters are less than 10 years old.

Posted by: CarlD | Feb 27 2019 17:31 utc | 30

@Rellis

That is the most bizarre part of watching these events unfold. Every jet being flown by both countries should be easily shot out of the sky by any modern air defense network.

It is like reading about a bank robbery where the vault wasn't locked because no one bothered to.

Any competent defense in 2019 would have the entire bordered covered with an airspace denial network that would only be abled to penetrated by either saturation attacks or bleeding edge stealth attacks taking out the system's sensors. And only then after the defense network has been degraded enough would non-stealth jets ben sent in.

The fact that suffered no losses in the initial(and now clearly failed) cross border raid and that all subsequent losses by India over the past 24 hours have been from plane to plane attacks is startling.

Posted by: nancy | Feb 27 2019 17:53 utc | 31

just realized i said the IAF are acting like the other IAF. smooth. not confusing at all.

Posted by: the pair | Feb 27 2019 17:59 utc | 32

INDIA DID NOT CARRY OUT STRIKES. They pulled this crap in 2016 too, in a fraudulent debacle called 'surgical strikes' for domestic point scoring. Cringe-worthily weak level of propaganda. Indian jets entered our airspace yesterday for 4 minutes, dropped fuel tank near a village on the LoC (de facto border) and went back. Claimed to have 'killed 300 terrorists'. Not sarcasm. Not a joke, I repeat, not a joke. No cockpit video, no physical evidence on the ground, no nothing.

Today, Pakistan shot down 2 Indian jets. Took a pilot captive. In broad daylight, with video evidence and everything.

We are attacked by a lunatic government of Hindutva and we Pakistanis will defend our motherland.

Pakistan Zindabad.

Posted by: Agha Hussain | Feb 27 2019 18:08 utc | 33

Pakistan drew blood, India did not. They are also getting pounded on the border in shelling. https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/pakistan/we-didnt-even-use-our-f-16s-pakistan-army-rubbishes-indian-medias-attempts-to-deflect-from-real-news/

'Director General ISPR Major General Asif Ghafoor on Wednesday confirmed the downing of two Indian aircraft by Pakistan Air Force (PAF) inside Pakistani airspace.

The military spokesman also clarified that no F-16 of Pakistan was shot down in this action contrary to some reports by Indian media. The F-16 jets were not even engaged in this action.'

Indian propaganda is always cartoon-tier.

Posted by: Agha Hussain | Feb 27 2019 18:11 utc | 34

My fellow analysts, OBOR will soon become a distant dream and EU will be toast come May elections. Only Perfidius Albion will be prepared because engineered hard brexit, USA because Trump emergency powers and Russia because sanctions.
The rest of us will become dinner soon!

Posted by: to serve man | Feb 27 2019 18:40 utc | 35

We can only be saddened at the confessionalisation of US foreign policy. It must be connected with the return of Elliott Abrams to the State Department after 30 years of absence. This Trotskyite, rallied in 1980 to Republican President Reagan, is one of the founders of the neoconservative movement. He is also one of the initiators of theopolitics, the school of thought which allies Zionist Jews and Christians, according to which the Earth will know peace only when it has a world government based in Jerusalem.

Iran is cornered by Thierry Meyssan
https://www.voltairenet.org/article205087.html

Posted by: Cleo | Feb 27 2019 18:49 utc | 36

@Agha Hussain It's true that whenever any country initiates action against what they consider a terrorist group or militants, they always release some video evidence of the strike, including coordinates and camera imagery of the target hit, video clips to this effect -- something to this effect. This is true for Israel, or the US or any other country....except India.

The first so-called strike in 2016-- they did not release ANY video footage, or even coordinates of the targets hits. Same is the case now.

The area where Indian jets dropped payload in Balakot sector in Pakistani Kashmir (short distance of the Line of Control) is situated on a hilly mountainsaid. The only casualties were the poor pine trees.

Posted by: Fez Schon | Feb 27 2019 18:52 utc | 37

@ Perimetr #13

That was an impressive collection of links you provided, and I've already archived them. Thank you.

Last week I commented about this situation in a post at the xymphora site.

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2019/02/ols-schoolish.html#comment-4345407398

This is something which could kill hundreds of millions to billions of people far away from India and Pakistan. If the balloon goes up over there, what are the chances of MY government providing the necessary assistance to people here, let alone for those elsewhere? Today at the naked capitalism site was this casual remark about our Great Leader within the piece titled "Why Did Trump Choose to Be Such an Unpopular President?"

Trump is the laziest, most corrupt, and most narcissistic President in U.S. history.
Mind you, this was a defense of the Orange POTUS! The author was saying that Trump was only "normal stupid" instead of "spectacularly stupid". Given how Puerto Rico has been allowed to swing slowly in the wind, and also taking note of the nasty and uncaring Billionaires comprising much of Trump's Cabinet, what are my chances of getting emergency assistance here in Indiana if the sky turns dark for a whole year and radioactive dust from far away starts drfting down from that dark sky? LOW!

Pakistan’s Nasr Missile: ‘Cold Water’ Over India’s ‘Cold Start’?

With both nations armed to the teeth, India got the idea of making "small" conventional raids against Pakistan so as not to trigger Pakistan's use of nukes. Pakistan has reacted by creating that "Nasr" missile. It can be armed with the same type itty bitty nukes now being manufactured by the US - to slide under the tripwire. But what if the other side doesn't agree to the new rules? It's a pure fantasy like the US declaring Guaido president of Venezuela. Small step from that to announcing 1/3 size Hiroshima bombs aren't "really" nukes. I've no reason to believe the strategy will work for either the US or Pakistan.

IMO the news from South Asia is frightening.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Feb 27 2019 19:06 utc | 38

Trump should fly directly to New Delhi and tell Modi to cut it out.

Posted by: Fernando Martinez | Feb 27 2019 19:46 utc | 39

Both of these political nations are just peacocking. dan | Feb 27, 2019 12:28:26 PM

Both countries are well aware of the times where Indias were ruled from the Peacock throne. If anyone knows how to peacock, they do.

Of course, the practice exists in the West too, as a form of cultural borrowing.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 27 2019 19:49 utc | 40

reply to bevin 14
I hadn't considered the connections between the philosophy/needs of empire and India/Israel. Thank you for a really insightful post.

Posted by: frances | Feb 27 2019 20:52 utc | 41

reply to Arioch 15
"So if some American politician ever makes fuzz about North Korea having nukes - they better address their complains to Langley."

I didn't know that, thank you. And if what I have read elsewhere is correct, Langley is also to be addressed regarding recent NK nuclear advances made with Ukraine assistance. For once Northern Ukraine industry was decimated their nuclear workers went off to visit KIm.

Posted by: frances | Feb 27 2019 21:00 utc | 42

frances 42
The separation of the Ukriane from Russia was not a good idea ( many forsaw tis at the time ) - now we are seeing !

Posted by: ashley albanese | Feb 27 2019 21:43 utc | 43

reply to ashley albanese 43
I agree, the frightening thing to me was the speed with which the govt fell and the chaos Ukraine is today. I fear for the same outcomes in Vz and now India/Pk. we live in a fragile world during dangerous times.

Posted by: frances | Feb 27 2019 21:47 utc | 44

Anyone still supporting Tulsi Gabbard as a potential US presidential candidate in 2020 (after she chickened out during a CNN interview in early February and referred to Bashar al Assad as a "brutal dictator") should also be questioning Gabbard's close friendship with Narendra Modi and whether that friendship and India's ties to Israel might not influence her Middle Eastern foreign policy.

Posted by: Jen | Feb 27 2019 21:54 utc | 45

It appears that nightfall caused the shelling to stop. The behind-the-scenes communications were probably frantic: Xi calling Modi, while Putin called Khan, then Xi calling Khan while Putin phoned Modi, all the while Kim and Trump talked and dined in Hanoi. Both events are currently cloaked in media silence, which I find unusual.

As I reported awhile ago, Pakistan has fulfilled its part of the UN mandated steps regarding Kashmir, but India hasn't, and Kashmiri patience is being replaced with anger at the occupier, which is India. That such a tender flashpoint would be used by forces wanting to impede Eurasian integration is rather obvious, and the op/ed I posted earlier provides credence for that hypothesis. IMO, Modi showed his deranged side by overreacting to the nth degree, while Khan showed himself to be reserved and balanced.

Hopefully calm will reign when the sun rises again over South Asia and Modi will awake convinced of the need to swallow his pride and talk with Khan instead of senselessly playing into the hands of those wanting to continue destabilizing the region.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 27 2019 22:27 utc | 46

@45

Good point. Will the so-called opponent of US-Russia nuclear war be just fine with a catastrophic holocaust instigated by Modi against the masses of human beings in Pakistan?

Posted by: Blooming Barricade | Feb 27 2019 22:34 utc | 47

See what happens. The nuke threat should be enough to prevent any escallation. A real war would totally destroy customer service in the west by shutting down the call centers. God forbid these companies would have to pay western level wages to service customers.

Posted by: Pft | Feb 27 2019 22:42 utc | 48

bingo, jen @45.

when i'd written up ‘John Bolton Greenlights Indian Military Attack on Pakistan’ on Feb. 17, featuring 'peace candidate' tulsi's deep involvement with the fascist thug modi (including escorting him on two tours across the US, i was trying to remember what she'd said about the pulwama incident, not to mention the horrid beatings kashmiri students received afterward, i went in search of her reaction and found:

https://twitter.com/IbnKhayyam/status/1096199521195954177

oddly, in none of the coverage i'd read, did anyone mention the self-determination plebiscite nehru had promised so long ago, but if he wished, modi could arrange that in a milwaukee minute, as i understand it. and really, iirc, no coverage reminded readers of the 'Legalized Tyranny: India’s Armed Forces Special Powers Act for Kashmir and Jammu' described by hasnaht sheikh at dissident voice in 2016:

"AFSPA, one of the most dreaded words in a Kashmiri’s vocabulary, is not less then a curse on the population of the occupied territory. Conventionally applied in “disturbed areas” of the Indian federation, the provisions of the act empower their Army personnel to shoot and use force, even to the extent to kill anyone that they consider is acting in contravention with law and order. Further, it allows them to arrest any person on the basis of suspicion and to enter any building or stop and search any vehicle, all without any warrant.

A provision of this law also requires all arrested people to be handed over to the nearest police station with a report on the circumstances of the arrest, but the more than 8,000 enforced disappearances in Kashmir from 1989 to 2009 speak volumes on the implementation of this provision."

'Legalized Tyrrany', indeed. arundhati roy has written a lot about the 're-brahaminisation' of universities, the actual effects on the poor of modi's cashless society, and much, much more.

as i don't know how to embed hyperlinks, i'll forgo providing links. but you get the gist.

Posted by: wendy davis | Feb 27 2019 22:45 utc | 49

India and Pakistan are both grossly overpopulated.

somehow, a solution must be found. Tangentially,

what did the girl mushroom say to the boy mushroom?

Posted by: Haxo Angmark | Feb 27 2019 22:48 utc | 50

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index2798.htm
this clarifies it all. just get your favorite popcorn, removes shoes, elevate feet, sit back, stroke your beard. and read the link..

Posted by: snake | Feb 27 2019 23:14 utc | 51

Great comments tonight. Thanks to all and to b. of course.

Gordon Duff, who I am wary of, made a good case that the bomb that killed dozens of Indian soldiers and set off this conflict was a false flag. Classic Mossad.

The bad news piles up thick and fast. Maybe we should be grateful that we have the guy I watched galvanize a Pakistan cricket team with a mixture of fieriness and class and sort of beauty. That fieriness was on display with the downing of Indian aircraft. The class was in his overture towards India. To disagree with b. I think Imran will prevail.

The heads of all the sleep-walking people I meet have, to paraphrase Dylan, “been twisted and fed with worthless foam from the mouth.” I heard the song To Ramona for the first time from a busker in the city centre of the place I live in today. It was like finding five hundred dollars, except better.

Posted by: Lochearn | Feb 27 2019 23:20 utc | 52

45 Jen.

I agree that her connection with Modi is creepy, and will be seized upon by the media. But who will NOT be seized upon?

The media's duty is to make money by scandal mongering and to coalesce around a narrative that supports the powers that be.

Pick someone perfect for me.

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Feb 27 2019 23:39 utc | 53

I forgot to put a link to the Dylan song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zocCtIraIgE

Posted by: Lochearn | Feb 27 2019 23:42 utc | 54

Bart Hansen @53--

IMO, the gals at In the Now are pretty perfect to me as they attack censorship by Facebook on behalf of Outlaw US Empire. If you've never seen any of their Twitter vids, you should begin with this one.

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 27 2019 23:52 utc | 55

I reckon now would be a good time to have a cricket fast bowling contest. I reckon the Indians and Pakis would be sending down some real belters !

Posted by: imoverit | Feb 27 2019 23:52 utc | 56

OT but what the hey

@ Lochearn with the Bob Dylan To Ramona link and reference

I latched on to the Dylan lyrics that are somewhat the anthesis of that song.

Its Alright Ma has a line that I have tried to live

"Those not busy being born are busy dying"

What would our world be like if Bob Dylan had not strolled through it????
Keep strolling Dylan...

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2019 0:40 utc | 57

@snake (51)

I hadn't been to that website for a long time so I gave it a look. The very first thing that I found contained:-

"Indian Air Force pilot who, upon his capture, was filmed being savagely beaten by Pakistani military forces to the outrage of the entire Indian nation"

However even the link contained in the same piece of text contradicted this account, claiming the pilot was being attacked by villagers and not the Pakistani military.

Thanks but no thanks.

Posted by: MarkU | Feb 28 2019 0:43 utc | 58

bart hansen @ 53

actually, the media had seized on tulsi being 'an assad apologist'; but it's all good now:

‘Caving under MSM pressure? Tulsi Gabbard interview on The View has some supporters fuming’

“Questioned aggressively by panelist Meghan McCain, the daughter of the late Senator John McCain, Gabbard said there was “no disputing the fact” that Syrian President Bashar Assad is a “brutal dictator” who “used chemical weapons against his people.”

https://www.rt.com/usa/452095-tulsi-gabbard-the-view-mccain/

few care about her associations w/ the BJP and modi, because he is now a BFF on the empire, MAGA.


Posted by: wendy davis | Feb 28 2019 1:24 utc | 59

@ Lochearn #52

I went to Duff's site and couldn't find that particular article. You're right about using caution - back when I still had it bookmarked deciding what was realistic commentary and what was total BS was a real issue for me. On this visit I saw a fine piece about vaccination, but also one praising David Irving to the heavens.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Feb 28 2019 1:52 utc | 60

55 K Are they running for office?

59 Wendy, I don't understand how flipping on Assad makes her acceptable those of us here.

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Feb 28 2019 1:59 utc | 61

Not to defend Gabbard , but if a politician spoke nothing but the truth to a nation that has been conditioned to believe nothing but lies ( a great ambition of the CIA as declared by Its director Bill Casey almost 40 years ago) then said politician would end up flipping hamburgers or be locked up in an insane asylum.

People say Maduros big failing was not cleaning out the elites. The Democratic process in the US and elsewhere died for the same failure. Its not possible for anyone opposed to their Empire to be elected, and if you lie your way in and then try to change, you will be taken down. Its all over. The Fat Lady finished her song over 40 years ago and gone to bed. Dead and buried by now.

Posted by: Pft | Feb 28 2019 2:05 utc | 62

Sigh, again March the Month of War is around the corner..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 28 2019 2:11 utc | 63

@63 lozion.. yeah, it gets tiring.. obviously the world is in trouble at present... did you happen to see the post with links from some quebec group on bill browder in the moa review the past weekend? i thought it was cool some of the francophone community doing that.

astro on india -pakistan feud... this always seems to rear it's ugly head around the time of saturn-pluto transits.. we are coming into the conjunction - 2020 in an approx 36 year cycle... apparently all the conflicts with india-pakistan have connected with this astro config.. in fact - at the time of the establishment of both countries - 1947- there was a saturn-pluto conjunction... 1914, 1947, 1983, 2020... yeah, 2020 is the next one so it makes sense from an astrological point of view that india and pakistan will be working out the angst contained in their recent history..

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2019 2:44 utc | 64

@ Pft who wrote
"...Its all over. The Fat Lady finished her song over 40 years ago and gone to bed. Dead and buried by now.
"
I would posit that there is a new "fat lady" in town called China and she hasn't had a chance to sing yet but she did just say that invading Venezuela was a bad idea

I do agree with your assertion that any US politician that makes it onto our radar has at least one skeleton in their closet. We need to have folks like karlof1 who wouldn't want the stress at his age but has the wisdom to suggest positive changes.

I continue to hope China/Russia are humanities "saviors" from the cancerous social system of the West.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2019 2:50 utc | 65

Below is a link from Xinjhuanet that speaks to the "driving a wedge between China and India" issue

China, Russia, India to strengthen cooperation after foreign ministers' meeting

And they even had time it their communication to say that Venezuela should not be invaded.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2019 3:41 utc | 66

@55 karlof1

In the Now. I had seen both of these ladies separately but never quite realized they were a team now. Sign me up - along with the guy in the first comment:

"Wow! Thanks to Facebook censorship, I found two new channels to follow! Thanks Facebook censors!"

Posted by: Grieved | Feb 28 2019 4:04 utc | 67

Zachary Smith @ 60:

There are articles on the Pulwama suicide bombing attack at Veterans Today that suggest the attack was a false flag. The timing of the attack a few months before general elections in India in May is suspicious in itself. Convenient also that the man responsible for the bombing died during the attack as well.

Brigadier Asif Haroon Raja, "Indian Jingoism after Pulwama Attack"
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2019/02/23/indian-jingoism-after-pulwama-attack/

Sajjad Shaukat, "Pulwama: India’s False Flag Operation in Kashmir, Danger of Nuclear War?"
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2019/02/22/pulwama-indias-false-flag-operation-in-kashmir-danger-of-nuclear-war/

Posted by: Jen | Feb 28 2019 4:24 utc | 68

I see many members here surprised to be in the midst of a frightening scenario of a possible nuclear conflict at a place they did not suspect focused on the INF and DPRK-US nuclear possibilities. I can also see many members here only recently starting to look deeper into the India-Pakistan equation. Well here's my two cents' worth of opinion but totally sincere.

The bottom line if you cut through all the narratives and counter narratives is that Kashmir is forcefully, unjustly and brutally occupied by India. The simplest solution to the Kashmir problem as advocated by UN General Assembly resolution in 1948 and promised by India's longest serving former PM Jawaharlal Nehru is a PLEBISCITE. If India went down this path it would lose Kashmir. So to hide this simple reality they have built up this narrative against Pakistan, years in the making, but now rather firmly entrenched in the minds of people the world over that Pakistan uses terrorists to destabilize India and is inexplicably obsessed with it. Specially post-911 the Afghanistan problem really helped Indians with America accusing Pakistan of sheltering terrorists(read Taliban). So they fused together American Afghan narrative with their own although Afghan and Kashmir problems are a world apart. But we all read headlines in newspapers and websites and the reality is that for most of us all our understanding of the world really is from these headlines we read and they get stacked up in our subconscious and shape our opinion. Why do you think NYtimes and others always use misleading headlines and stick in the truth somewhere towards the end when the reader has already formed his/her opinion?

An analogy to Kashmir problem is the Palestine problem. The bottom-line there is that Palestinians lands were forcefully occupied and Palestinians thrown out of their homes by Israelis who claimed the land as their own based on 3-4 thousand year religious text which gave them ownership of these lands. But you never really see this reality being discussed because just like the reality of Kashmir if this reality is discussed the Israelis don't have a chance. So they built walls of different narratives around this truth so that all we ever discuss is those narratives and are never really able to see the truth. One of these walls of narratives is the never-ending Anti-Semitism debate. With WW2 ending more than seventy years ago you would think that the shining light of human civilization- the West- should have solved this problem. But the anti-semtism debate has become an integral part of our lives. And its would have been beautiful to watch had it not been hiding a truth that hurts so much: Anyone who speaks up for Palestinians is somehow amazingly labeled an anti-semitic (in cases it doesn't work labeled a supporter of Hamas terrorism) and the rest as we all know is handled by MSM. So we never really get to discuss the truth.

The Kashmir problem is the same. Cut through all the narratives and the truth will be visible. Interestingly, Indians will never come around to discuss this just like Israelis. And even more interestingly, no matter how sensible or objective some of them might seem all Israelis will tie themselves in knots trying to circumvent the truth, just like all the Indians (for example, Mr. Bhadrakumar who b likes to quote so much will throw his objectivity out of the window just to be able to avoid the truth on Kashmir).

Posted by: Bilal | Feb 28 2019 5:24 utc | 69

Tulsi Gabbard is still far and away the best chance for a reasonable, humane presidential candidate. You have got to expect errors and misjudgements when you are up against the swamp and the MSM. Just look at Trumps performance..
More power to you Tulsi Gabbard

Posted by: Ike | Feb 28 2019 5:38 utc | 71

Psychohistorian@65

If China is going to be our saviors I am glad I am old enough that I will soon be joining the Fat Lady in her eternal peace.

For your sake I hope I am wrong but having lived most of my adult life in and around China I dont believe I am. Its a Technocrats paradise for sure, but if you love freedom and value individual rights, its a step down Jacobs Ladder and we are already near the bottom as it is

Posted by: Pft | Feb 28 2019 5:50 utc | 72

I am 70 so not as much future ahead of me as past.

I would like to read your description of freedom and individual rights you think are in the West and will not be in the China centered new world.

I am a reason and logic over faith and grifters like we got person so I guess that makes me one of your Technocrats. I want a KISS government architecture and evolving implementation that optimizes personal freedoms/diversity/rights

The point where the rubber meets the road is where the optimized freedoms/diversity/rights have internal conflicts that have to be mitigated by government.... That is why, even though I don't know the details, I think I support China's position of not allowing any religion to set/impact public/government policy.

Yes, it is taking control out of the hands of the "faith based" leadership and putting it in the hands of Technocrats which I see as a potential improvement....the proof will be in the results of ongoing implementation.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2019 6:48 utc | 73

@ Jen #68

I couldn't make heads or tails of the first link. It was obviously propaganda, but with my level of knowledge about affairs over that way I couldn't tell how much of that propagand was true. The second link story by author Sajjad Shaukat was far more interesting to me.

Notably, Israel does not want the two-state settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian issue and will prefer atomic war between the US and Russia. Similarly, in order to avoid the solution of Kashmir dispute, extremist Prime Minister Modi can take the risk of nuclear war with Pakistan.

Unfortunately, I agree with what he says here about the apartheid Jewish state. A prolonged nuclear fright or even a small nuclear exchange would suite the little outhouse nation just fine. I fear that the India/Pakistan situation could also provide cover for a Final Solution which would allow the purification of occupied Palestine. I'm quite sure India is capable of pulling off its own "false flag", but motives abound in many other places.

An unmentioned motive I've seen for India to be rocking the boat involves climate change.

Shrinking Mountain Glaciers Are Affecting People Downstream

Yet another instance of Big Coal/Oil destroying the world in order to pad their bloated profits. To be perfectly cold-blooded, there is going to be a massive dieoff in South Asia sooner or later. Sooner (from blast and radiation) if there is a nuclear war there, later (from starvation and general chaos) when the rivers start drying up. (not to mention the 167 million people in Bangladesh who have nowhere to go as the ocean rises).

It's my understanding that one of the very first thing India did after the Pulwama 'attack' was to declare it's making a massive water grab.

Pulwama fallout: India's share of river water won't go to Pakistan, says Nitin Gadkari

I'm sure there are better stories about the river waters, but it's late here. I don't have a solitary clue about who-did-what at Pulwama, but it's plain to me that India had plenty of motives to 'engineer' the slaughter.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Feb 28 2019 6:49 utc | 74

@ Pft with the response......I am 70 so not as much future ahead of me as past.

I would like to read your description of freedom and individual rights you think are in the West and will not be in the China centered new world.

I am a reason and logic over faith and grifters like we got person so I guess that makes me one of your Technocrats. I want a KISS government architecture and evolving implementation that optimizes personal freedoms/diversity/rights

The point where the rubber meets the road is where the optimized freedoms/diversity/rights have internal conflicts that have to be mitigated by government.... That is why, even though I don't know the details, I think I support China's position of not allowing any religion to set/impact public/government policy.

Yes, it is taking control out of the hands of the "faith based" leadership and putting it in the hands of Technocrats which I see as a potential improvement....the proof will be in the results of ongoing implementation.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2019 6:50 utc | 75

@ Jen #68

I couldn't make heads or tails of the first link. It was obviously propaganda, but with my level of knowledge about affairs over that way I couldn't tell how much of that propagand was true. The second link story by author Sajjad Shaukat was far more interesting to me.

Notably, Israel does not want the two-state settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian issue and will prefer atomic war between the US and Russia. Similarly, in order to avoid the solution of Kashmir dispute, extremist Prime Minister Modi can take the risk of nuclear war with Pakistan.

Unfortunately, I agree with what he says here about the apartheid Jewish state. A prolonged nuclear fright or even a small nuclear exchange would suite the little outhouse nation just fine. I fear that the India/Pakistan situation could also provide cover for a Final Solution which would allow the purification of occupied Palestine. I'm quite sure India is capable of pulling off its own "false flag", but motives abound in many other places.

An unmentioned motive I've seen for India to be rocking the boat involves climate change.

Shrinking Mountain Glaciers Are Affecting People Downstream

Yet another instance of Big Coal/Oil destroying the world in order to pad their bloated profits. To be perfectly cold-blooded, there is going to be a massive dieoff in South Asia sooner or later. Sooner (from blast and radiation) if there is a nuclear war there, later (from starvation and general chaos) when the rivers start drying up. (not to mention the 167 million people in Bangladesh who have nowhere to go as the ocean rises).

It's my understanding that one of the very first thing India did after the Pulwama 'attack' was to declare it's making a massive water grab.

Pulwama fallout: India's share of river water won't go to Pakistan, says Nitin Gadkari

I'm sure there are better stories about the river waters, but it's late here. I don't have a solitary clue about who-did-what at Pulwama, but it's plain to me that India had plenty of motives to 'engineer' the slaughter.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Feb 28 2019 6:52 utc | 76

@69 bilal... i think the analogy here with palestine- israel is pretty whacked... and, i think your quick take on all this is also pretty whacked... pakistan has been taking money from the wahabbi monkeys ksa for a long time, building madrasses in pakistan and indoctrinating many into the salafi ideology...they take out their own too on a regular basis - countless political leaders and etc. etc.. imram khan is walking a fine line with all the nutjobs running loose in pakistan, not to mention the fact that it is either ksa-uae bailing them out financially, or the imf - which is probably worse, or on an equal par.. sure - if india had someone other then modi as leader at present, they probably would sit down with khan and talk.. modi is a bit of a loon himself with a bad record and probably the one to set off this military stupidity from the past 24 hours, but it doesn't change the fact the event on feb 14th was a bad thing... and, to suggest it was a false flag is remote as i see it..

read up on the jihadi schools in pakistan, thanks ksa... it has been going on for a long time and i am sure it has been approved by the usa-uk for even longer too.. see @14 bevins comment.. let me quote him again here- "It is one of the ironies of life under empire that a third pillar of imperialist policy is the nourishing of wahhabi bigotry aiming to employ a version of islam, as distorted as Hindutva and Zionism are from the principles of Hinduism and Judaism, not to defend muslims from their enemies but to defend imperialism from its victims."

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2019 6:52 utc | 77

@69 bilal... i think the analogy here with palestine- israel is pretty whacked... and, i think your quick take on all this is also pretty whacked... pakistan has been taking money from the wahabbi monkeys ksa for a long time, building madrasses in pakistan and indoctrinating many into the salafi ideology...they take out their own too on a regular basis - countless political leaders and etc. etc.. imram khan is walking a fine line with all the nutjobs running loose in pakistan, not to mention the fact that it is either ksa-uae bailing them out financially, or the imf - which is probably worse, or on an equal par.. sure - if india had someone other then modi as leader at present, they probably would sit down with khan and talk.. modi is a bit of a loon himself with a bad record and probably the one to set off this military stupidity from the past 24 hours, but it doesn't change the fact the event on feb 14th was a bad thing... and, to suggest it was a false flag is remote as i see it..

read up on the jihadi schools in pakistan, thanks ksa... it has been going on for a long time and i am sure it has been approved by the usa-uk for even longer too.. see @14 bevins comment.. let me quote him again here- "It is one of the ironies of life under empire that a third pillar of imperialist policy is the nourishing of wahhabi bigotry aiming to employ a version of islam, as distorted as Hindutva and Zionism are from the principles of Hinduism and Judaism, not to defend muslims from their enemies but to defend imperialism from its victims."

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2019 6:53 utc | 78

@ Pft with the response......I am 70 so not as much future ahead of me as past.

I would like to read your description of freedom and individual rights you think are in the West and will not be in the China centered new world.

I am a reason and logic over faith and grifters like we got person so I guess that makes me one of your Technocrats. I want a KISS government architecture and evolving implementation that optimizes personal freedoms/diversity/rights

The point where the rubber meets the road is where the optimized freedoms/diversity/rights have internal conflicts that have to be mitigated by government.... That is why, even though I don't know the details, I think I support China's position of not allowing any religion to set/impact public/government policy.

Yes, it is taking control out of the hands of the "faith based" leadership and putting it in the hands of Technocrats which I see as a potential improvement....the proof will be in the results of ongoing implementation.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2019 6:56 utc | 79

test

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2019 6:58 utc | 80

@ Pft with the response......I am 70 so not as much future ahead of me as past.

I would like to read your description of freedom and individual rights you think are in the West and will not be in the China centered new world.

I am a reason and logic over faith and grifters like we got person so I guess that makes me one of your Technocrats. I want a KISS government architecture and evolving implementation that optimizes personal freedoms/diversity/rights

The point where the rubber meets the road is where the optimized freedoms/diversity/rights have internal conflicts that have to be mitigated by government.... That is why, even though I don't know the details, I think I support China's position of not allowing any religion to set/impact public/government policy.

Yes, it is taking control out of the hands of the "faith based" leadership and putting it in the hands of Technocrats which I see as a potential improvement....the proof will be in the results of ongoing implementation.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2019 7:03 utc | 81

@ james #77

I very nearly did the "test" thing myself because for a while the comment box locked up every time I tried to make a post.

Posted by: Zachary Smith | Feb 28 2019 7:05 utc | 82

@frances #42

Yeah, EuroMaidan crusade against industrial productio nand urban life benefits many, outside of Ukraine.

Large cargo aircrafts: Boeing & Airbus take cream selling very expensive jets with vast global maintenance networks.
Russia's Tupolev/Illyushin (merged, AFAIR) takes "crumbles" niche - much worse maintenance network, but much cheaper aircrafts.
Ukraine's Antonov was cutting Russia's house from the cheap side, making us between rock and hard place.
( China, Brazil and Canada are not in the game, they do mid-size cargo jets, but not above )

Interesting that when USA put Yanukovich to Ukrainian throne in 2014 - Putin immediately dispatched to Ukraine and tried to persuade Yanukovich to merge industrial parts of Russia and Ukraine back into semi-USSR style joint consortium. To no avail.

Well, cue to EuroMaidan savages, there is no more Antonov. Saudi Arabia & China got the know-how remnants from it, and that is all. So, no pressure on Russian house "from behind".

YuzhMash - ballistic missiles design house. Medium-range nukes and low orbits space rockets. Sea Launch, etc. No more. Saudi got know-how, plant is closed. Oh, they can produce kettles instead of space rockets, if you wish, exactly the same "conversion" that was hyped in Perestroika-infected USSR. IF they did not leeran that lesson in "holy 1990-s" they can repeat it.

Motor-Sich - gas-turbine motors for aircrafts and helicopters, including military ones. Dead. They are prohibited from selling to Russia (nor Russia can trust their reliability any more), there is no hope dead Antonov would buy motors form them, they are not welcome in western markets. China contracted them to build motors factory in China. That hurts, to the day China could not produce reliable jet engines for their jet-fighter. Even producing their own MiG/Su clones, they had to order engines from Russia. Now China would get Motor-Sich factory, and i bet many of their key employees would just settle in China near that new plant, instead of coming back to rotting bankrupt Ukraine. But, great prize for China, it looks. They'll make a huge leap catching up to us.

So, basically, everyone benefits from EuroMaidania turning the most industrialized ex-USSR shard into no-industry-tolerated pastoral gore fairy-tail. Everyone but urbanized Ukrainians.

Posted by: Arioch | Feb 28 2019 9:45 utc | 83

Lochearn @52,

John Robb, expert on fourth-generation warfare, suggested that terrorism along the OBOR was the USA's only alternative to exiting the game of superpower. The post-Syria timing is curious, isn't it?

Posted by: Jonathan | Feb 28 2019 9:50 utc | 84

Pakistanis are more or less a society of islamistic religion with their share of islamofanatics, with nukes.
India a a complex mix of Hindi spiritual prone, unequality plagued place, with a proud rich and middle class elite of millions and eager to assert itself internationally.
It lately became clear that Delhi no longer trust their US friends... and exerts a pendulum policy just like Turkey.
Why not to conduct and wide popular poll in Kashemere, just to set which side locals want to stay?

Posted by: augusto | Feb 28 2019 11:45 utc | 85

@84 Jonathan. Yes, imo this flare-up has to be seen through the prism of China's OBOR project. Khan is showing a modicum of sovereignty and his rapprochement to China, allowing it to use Gwadar as an OBOR terminal and access to the Gulf of Oman has to be countered so the Balochi rebellion is used as a means to that end (also Iran's Chabahar). See similarly the now almost forgotten Rohingya rebellion in Myanmar as a way to prevent China's access to the port of Sittwe (and offshore gas fields). Modi, being the West's pawn that he is has to elevate tension to prevent further development of the Kashgar-Gwadar corridor. Also, this new spat takes the focus off of the recent lame duck coup attempt in Venezuela, while the Neocons scratch their heads thinking about what to do next..

Posted by: Lozion | Feb 28 2019 14:30 utc | 86

@ karlof1 #55

ack! rania khalek?

https://twitter.com/RedKahina/status/816726410190606336

ah, but she may have had a damascene conversion; will tulsi who's 'conflicted about torture' because: presidents and ticking time bombs? perhaps, but i won't take her at her word.

Posted by: wendy davis | Feb 28 2019 16:21 utc | 87

@82 zachary... none of those comments were going thru and the same thing happened to me.. even the text comment wasn't going thru... not sure if this one will either... i got the same message - some bug was preventing it from going thru..

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2019 16:32 utc | 88

looks like it is gone now...

Posted by: james | Feb 28 2019 16:33 utc | 89

@87 wendy davis

Thanks for that caution. Noted.

Posted by: Grieved | Feb 28 2019 16:56 utc | 90

I kept getting HTML errors when I posted comments so I assumed they did not post and so went through reboot and then got one to post and then the others showed up

The Remember Personal Info is not working for me.....others?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Feb 28 2019 17:00 utc | 91

@ bilal #69:

well done!

@ grieved #90

welcome.

Posted by: wendy davis | Feb 28 2019 17:14 utc | 92

wendy davis @87--

My only experience with either is through retweets of their IntheNow twitter vids I encounter while perusing my Twitter list, which I began about a year ago. If Khalek was convinced of her errs, did she ever provide a mea culpa? A number of professed progressive journos, Max Blumenthal for example, degraded themselves as propaganda parrots, but are now working hard at redemption. Obama derangement syndrome afflicted quite a number of worthy people, but it seems only a few have rid themselves of it. Same goes with numerous people afflicted with Sanders derangement syndrome. I see AOC's tarnished star is being quickly reburnished, but it seems it was her staff that saved her, not her bartending past.

So, thanks for that bit of helpful background evidence!

Posted by: karlof1 | Feb 28 2019 17:46 utc | 93

@ Arioch (Feb 27, 2019 10:19:24 AM)

A STATEMENT BY THE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD (Translated)
March 28, 2019

Every time you People (and I mean that literally) want to equate solving some disastrous foreign policy blunder with brute force, you bring up the Perhaps we should send / Gee, it's just like / Godzilla! meme. Or you simply equate Godzilla with the United States.

Team Godzilla© and I have been terrifically patient with these simplistic comparisons for a long time. And, I've been very careful not to lay waste to any large urban areas for at least the past eighteen months. There were a few fish-harvesting factory trawlers that disappeared in the Sea of Okhotsk, but as I've said, I don't know anything about that.

As I swim in the ocean off Tokyo, fisherpersons and small children on shore make fun of me -- actually taunt me. And any self-respecting, 350-foot, giant radioactive bipedal lizard can't be expected to put up with that kind of abuse. And, no, I can't take this to the UN -- I couldn't get into the building, and I wouldn't swim into the East River for any amount of money.

So let me be clear: Leave me out of these snappy metaphors for geopolitical instability. I have a company to run with over 26,000 employees worldwide (most of them involved in consulting, media, berthing, logistics, and grooming) and this is getting to be too much. I leave you alone -- you leave me alone. Fair is fair.

Godzilla

Posted by: Godzilla | Feb 28 2019 18:28 utc | 94

@karlov1 #93

i'd never heard her apologize, and yes, maxie had been quite a shill for the empire, and is killing himself to repair the damage. a mea culpa ever? i can't say, but i am forced to link to his work now and again. ; ) but each person will decide for him/hersef, same with molly crabapple.

given that ocasio is both cordeliers' and red kahina's congresswoman, they do tend to slice and dice her, and i must say that i enjoy it. her brand has been only tarnished by her own self, in so many ways, but i loved that she first came to fame because: 'she has a peace plan'...then promptly voted for 'the defense of nato plan'. ooopsie. but her adherents will brook no detractors, and i used this one in a recent diary at a place where i cross-post from my home website, café babylon. but this is evidence of how far her fame has risen; that, and the fact that many who should know better use her and endless photos of her to exclaim: socialism has come to amerika!"

https://twitter.com/cordeliers/status/1100055040339968007

Posted by: wendy davis | Feb 28 2019 18:53 utc | 95

from Rt.com: ‘India puts weapon systems and navy on high alert, says Pakistani bombs hit military targets’

"We are fully prepared to respond to any provocation.

In the event of further aggression, Rear Admiral D.S. Gujral assured a “resolute, swift and strong response” by the Indian Navy, which has been “deployed in a high state of readiness and remains poised in three dimensions, on land, sea and in the air.”

The Indian Air Force said it would continue to target terrorist camps in Pakistan, maintaining the government’s position that Islamabad is sponsoring terrorist groups."

https://on.rt.com/9pau

also via RT: '‘If US could, why can’t we?’: Bin Laden-style raid now ‘possible’ in Pakistan, says Indian minister'

"If US could, why can’t we?’: Bin Laden-style raid now ‘possible’ in Pakistan, says Indian minister."

https://on.rt.com/9p9f

Posted by: wendy davis | Feb 28 2019 21:01 utc | 96

I wonder whether referring to Modi and the BJP as Hindu-fascists is really accurate or helpful. Modi might best be regarded as a corrupt political opportunist, riding the wave of Hindu populism to get elected, and needing to win the next election.

India has a history of intercommunal violence and pogroms that existed (and was worse) before Modi.

For this conflict to come to an end, India must perceive itself as having made a "sufficient" response to the Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM) attack. To the extent that commentators here express the view that India looks ridiculous, then I think further action by India is inevitable. It would have been better if Pakistan had not shot down those Indian MIGs, but then it would have been better for Modi to have accepted Khan's original offer for talks.

Also, it would be better if we could believe the story that India shot down a Pakistan F-16. If this is not believed in India then Modi will be co-erced by his own pandering to escalate.

It seems to me that Pakistan should make clear to India that they will eradicate JEM from their territory.

Modi is constrained by the Hindu populism that he has used to get to power and Khan is constrained by Pakistan military and security services. Both may find themselves obliged to use the nuclear option. The only way out is face-saving, otherwise more is to come.

It really isn't clear who is behind the JEM attack. There have been long standing concerns that Pakistan's ISI controls JEM; if so, then India would have grounds for perceiving Pakistan as behind the attack.

There are also concerns that the real controlling influence may be Saudi Arabia or the US, in which case, the whole thing is a provocation designed to engender a conflict between Pakistan and India (the real target being China). If so, then taking sides and blaming Modi as a Hindu-fascist seems to be falling into this trap.

The only way out of this conflict is face-saving, humiliation to either side will only lead to escalation.

Posted by: ADKC | Feb 28 2019 22:35 utc | 97

As per your article I have some questions.

1. Where did the local terrorist get 100-150 kgs of high quality RDX ?
2. When the 'democratic' Army of Pakistan has acknowledged that Indian Air Force(IAF) fighter planes entered de facto Pakistani airspace why do you say otherwise?
3. Are the number of nuclear weapons as stated by you correct ?
4. Are you quite sure that a Mig 21 Bis purchased by the IAF in the 80s did no take down a two seated F 16 when evidence states otherwise?
5. When Pakistani Army spokesman has reduced the numberof captured Indian pilots from three to two to one why do you say otherwise?.
6. Is every government which is not too your liking 'fascist' ?
7. Did you understand the capabilities of the IAF before commenting about it?.

As per the comments put forward by the IAF spokesman 24 PAF fighter aircraft's :- F 16s, JF 17s, Mirage 3 and some other makes, tried to enter Indian airspace and drop bombs on Indian military installations, this aggression was challenged by 8 IAF fighter aircraft's :- Mig 21, SU 30 MKI and Mirage 2000. During this engagement a Mig 21 locked on an F16 and shot it down despite been simultaneously locked and shot down by an AMRAAM missile fired from an F16. The capured Indian pilot is to be returned.

Posted by: Gavishti | Feb 28 2019 22:47 utc | 98

@98, Gavishti, you are a troll, nobody should believe what you have to say. You are a brainwashed puppet.

Posted by: Aren | Mar 1 2019 2:20 utc | 99

@ ADKC # 97

would you call this fascism? narendra modi has never ended this long-standing law since the sub-continent had been subivided post-colonial rule:

India’s Armed Forces Special Powers Act for Kashmir and Jammu

"AFSPA, one of the most dreaded words in a Kashmiri’s vocabulary, is not less then a curse on the population of the occupied territory. Conventionally applied in “disturbed areas” of the Indian federation, the provisions of the act empower their Army personnel to shoot and use force, even to the extent to kill anyone that they consider is acting in contravention with law and order. Further, it allows them to arrest any person on the basis of suspicion and to enter any building or stop and search any vehicle, all without any warrant.

A provision of this law also requires all arrested people to be handed over to the nearest police station with a report on the circumstances of the arrest, but the more than 8,000 enforced disappearances in Kashmir from 1989 to 2009 speak volumes on the implementation of this provision."


Posted by: wendy davis | Mar 1 2019 2:41 utc | 100

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