Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 01, 2018

What Poroshenko Gets Wrong - H.W. Bush And The Ukraine

Earlier this week Petro Poroshenko, the president of Ukraine, tried to provoke a war with Russia in attempt to stay in power by cancelling the upcoming elections.

Today he attempts to curry favor in the U.S. with remarks about the death of the former U.S. President George H.W. Bush.

Петро Порошенко @poroshenko - 10:59 utc - 1 Dec 2018

The former US President George W. Bush passed away. True leader and statesman. This man - the legend, under whose presidency the world saw the end of the Cold War. This man - the era, who then witnessed the restoration of Ukraine’s independence.


bigger

Poroshenko not only mourned the wrong President Bush, he also mislead about the historic record. Bush the first indeed "witnessed the restoration of Ukraine’s independence". But it happened against his strong advice.

Bush had feared that the Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev was too weak, and that a dissolution of the Soviet Union would end in utter chaos. He traveled to Moscow and Kiev in an attempt to keep the union together. On August 1, 1991, months before a December referendum in which the Ukraine voted to withdraw from the Soviet Union, he visited Kiev and held a speech in the Ukrainian parliament.

The core sentences:

I come here to tell you: we support the struggle in this great country for democracy and economic reform. In Moscow, I outlined our approach. We will support those in the center and the republics who pursue freedom, democracy and economic liberty. Americans will not support those who seek independence in order to replace a far-off tyranny with a local despotism. They will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred.

Bush told the members of the Verkhovna Rada not to seek independence, but to stay in a union with Russia and other soviet republics. Bush was advised by the realist Brent Scowcroft and it showed. The speech was drafted by Condoleeza Rice but Bush personally edited it to empathize his main point: Ukrainian independence was dangerous as it would lead to fascism.

[Bush would know this because he had been CIA director. The CIA worked with or controlled the Ukrainian fascists organizations throughout the cold war. (See "Collaborators: Allied Intelligence and the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists" in Hitler's Shadows - Nazi War Criminals, U.S. Intelligence and the Cold War (pdf).)]

The (neo-)conservative NYT columnist William Safire called it the "Chicken Kiev" speech. Safire believed that Bush misjudged the issue. History proved that the neo-conservative view, which infests U.S. foreign policy up to today, is wrong, and that the realist view is right.

The people in the eastern half of the Ukraine are of Russian descent and culture, while the western half is inhabited by the Ruthenians of Galicia, and various other nationalities. The Galicians had proven to be prone to "suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred" when they allied with the invading Nazis and immediately started to massacred Poles, Jews and Russians. The Ukraine, which literally means 'the borderlands', is inherently unstable:

Western Ukraine was joined to Russia only during Stalin’s era. For centuries it was under the cultural, religious, and/or political control of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Poland.
...
Western Ukraine is unified in its hostility toward Russians, whom they see as invaders and occupiers. During the last 20 years, as Ukraine tried to distance itself from its Soviet past and its ideology, it chose the nationalism of western Ukraine as the alternative.
...
Easterners are angry that pro-Bandera banners, posters and graffiti are popping up all over Ukraine and with the rewriting of history in general, where violent nationalists who fought alongside the Nazis are treated as heroes while Russians, who suffered under Stalin no less than the Ukrainians, are denigrated.

All that happened after the Ukraine's independence, and especially after the U.S. controlled unconstitutional coup in 2014, proves that H.W. Bush was right. A Ukraine within a much larger Russian Federation would be less of a powder-keg, and much better off than it is today.

The outright fascism that is now promoted in Poroshenko's Kiev, with U.S. neo-conservative support and the help of U.S. special operation forces, will only pull the country further apart.

There is little else to say about H.W. Bush. He was a run of the mill war-criminal just like other U.S. presidents were. As CIA director he oversaw and covered up state sponsored terrorism. As president he attacked Iraq under false pretext. He ordered the complete destruction of Iraq's electricity network the consequences of which are still felt today. That was a war crime as all basic infrastructure is protected under the Geneva Conventions. He further destroyed the country with punitive sanctions that killed half a million Iraqi children.

Besides that he fathered some mediocre sons.

Good Riddance.

---
This is a Moon of Alabama fundraiser week.
No one pays me to write these blog posts. If you appreciated this one, or any of the 7,000+ others, please consider a donation.

Posted by b on December 1, 2018 at 12:24 PM | Permalink

Comments

Brutally Honest.

Posted by: shaw | Dec 1, 2018 12:33:00 PM | 1

Good Riddance

It would have been nice if he could have been prosecuted for war crimes first, but since we all know that would never have happened, good riddance indeed!

Posted by: BM | Dec 1, 2018 12:44:06 PM | 2

excellent post and commentary b... thanks for shedding more light on what ukraine is today, not to mention everything else you articulate in the article about h.w.bush..

Posted by: james | Dec 1, 2018 12:49:37 PM | 3

Time to again pull out this fave article of mine by Engdhal (Via the Saker-hope thats ok) on the rape of Russia at the Soviet Union's dissolution and how Bush's boys became the future oligarchs of today's Ukraine & Russia..

http://thesaker.is/the-rape-of-russia-saker-blog-exclusive-interview/

Posted by: Lozion | Dec 1, 2018 1:06:44 PM | 4

Plus he was a serial groper..even of young girls. There are photos. A criminal all the way around.

Posted by: Linda Amick | Dec 1, 2018 1:08:56 PM | 5

In contrast to that quote, as I recall Bush unilaterally rushed to recognize Bosnia-Herzegovina's independence, against the wishes of the European powers who wanted to be more circumspect about the Yugoslav breakup. They saw him as throwing fuel on the fire.

Posted by: Russ | Dec 1, 2018 1:35:58 PM | 6

Well said B. Bush I was quite the horror. His mediocre sons did their best to keep up the family tradition. Neal was head
of security at the World Trade Center on that particular day in September. Interesting. His prior accomplishments include
involvement in the Savings and Loan swindles. ... Remember McInsane, recently rolled out with hero's buntings? He was along for that same ride in his role as one of the Keating Five. Ah the smell of politics....

Well peace and love anyway.

Posted by: miss lacy | Dec 1, 2018 1:55:37 PM | 7

I believe HW was Nixon's chief of outreach to the GOP ethnic division, essentially the interface between the GOP and the "captive nations" of Eastern Europe and it was here that he met up with the Nazis, fascists and collaborators who fled the Old World to live in the USA. See subpoint 15 in Dave Emory's "Gipper and the Underground Reich."
http://spitfirelist.com/for-the-record/ftr-465-the-gipper-and-the-underground-reich/
Weirdly, during the regime of Bush jr. I learned to respect the business-like comportment and old school paleoconservatism of Bush Sr. compared to the NeoCon rampage we saw 2001-2008. George HW now seems like a f**kin' golden Marcus Aurelius compared to all of the Republicans who have come after. But we all know how evil he was. And yes, Bush Sr. has dirty hands over prepping Yugoslavia for utter fratricide.

Posted by: DougDiggler | Dec 1, 2018 2:38:19 PM | 8

"b"

The incident in the Kersh Strait was instigated by Russia in mutually agreed upon Russian and Ukraine waters (2003 agreement). Russia illegally annexed Crimea so the Kersh strait is not Russian territorial waters. Indeed, Russia fired on the Ukraine boats in international waters (Investigating The Kerch Strait Incident via @bellingcat https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/11/30/investigating-the-kerch-strait-incident/; http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/11/30/russian-attack-on-ukrainian-ships-who-has-a-right-to-do-what-in-the-azov-sea/ via @EuromaidanPress).

Ukrainians overwhelmingly voted (legally) for self-rule in 1991. Even 54% of Crimeans voted for Ukrainian independence rather than stay in the union. The USSR dissolved because it was a non-democratic system of subjugation under the thumb of Russia. It was an economic disaster. Russian aggression in Ukraine is exactly what many former Soviet block countries feared from Russia - and the reason many joined NATO in the post Soviet era. Under the 2008 Medvedev Doctrine, Russia claimed an area of influence in its near abroad.

While many ethnic Ukrainians fought for the Nazis against Russia, this was less than ten years after the Holodomor in which millions of ethnic Ukrainians died due to policies by Stalin. Ukrainians still refer to the Holodomor as a “genocide”. The Holodomor was recognized in 2006 by the elected Ukrainian government as genocide against Ethnic Ukrainians carried out by Stalin. Let's also not forget Russia's role in doing everything possible to avoid WWII while expanding their empire. Russia signed a mutual non aggression agreement with Nazi Germany in which both countries invaded Poland and split the spoils. Russia (USSR) executed tens of thousands of Poles (Katyn massacre) and sent hundreds of thousands to the Gulags in the Soviet Union. Russia then unsuccessfully invaded Finland. While Russia was expanding her area of influence in Eastern Europe (conquering formerly independent countries Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia), Russia signed a non aggression pact with Japan. Speak about looking out for number one! Unfortunately, the grand plan went south when Germany turned on Russia. Russia was for Nazi Germany before they were against them.

The coup in Ukraine did not begin in February, 2014 nor was it a US - neo-Nazi coup, This is simply RT propaganda. This was a coup built on 100 years of Russian domination of Ukraine - and a rebellion which began in 2013 after the rejection of an EU economic package by Yanukovych in favor of a Russian economic package. Putin pressured Yanukovych to take the Russian offer. The Ukrainian economy was in tatters, and contracting in late 2013 (recession). The Yanukovych government drafted legislation to create a free trade zone between Ukraine and the European Union in 2010. The EU and Ukraine spent a year on drafting the agreement before it was rejected by Yanukovych in 2013. A majority of Ukrainians supported the deal. This is what initiated the protests in November - and it had nothing to do with the US. The violence was initiated by the Berkut police on November 30, 2013. The protests expanded to hundreds of thousands after the violence. This eventually led to the ousting of the Russian puppet, Yanukovych.

Nuland, the CIA and the NED are convenient scapegoats for the coup which resulted from domination by Russia over the past 100 years. Did the US meddle? Absolutely, but obviously so did Russia.

Posted by: craigsummers | Dec 1, 2018 2:44:22 PM | 9

B might have added that George H W Bush's dad Prescott owned a share in (and he was also a director of) the Union Banking Corporation which managed the overseas banking operations of Fritz Thyssen who financed Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist Party from 1923 onwards. Thyssen also ran the German Steel Trust, a major munitions producer for the German state during WWII.

On top of that, Prescott Bush was a director of the Silesian-American Corporation that owned an asset - a Polish factory producing steel - in the same area where the Auschwitz concentration camp was located. The factory was known to be using slave labour from that camp.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2003/06/bush-j05.html

But I guess the horror of George H W Bush's own legacy is more than enough to deal with on a Sunday morning.

Posted by: Jen | Dec 1, 2018 2:49:31 PM | 10

The house troll is decidedly less amusing when he starts to rationalize the Holocaust.

Posted by: jayc | Dec 1, 2018 3:03:25 PM | 11

I couldn't care less about the legal technicalities of the Russia-Ukraine conflict. History tells me a few things.

1. Russia has a long history of being assaulted and invaded from the West. So any sane Russian statesman, no matter what his nominal ideology, is going to make sure to secure the Black Sea and the Crimea, one way or another, period.

2. The Ukraine also has been part of this classical invasion plain. Russia can't afford to allow a new invasion by other means. For example, economic and bureaucratic infiltration via the EU, military infiltration via NATO, and then one day you wake up with a knife already at your throat. Russia can't allow this and has to secure against it.

3. Meanwhile the Ukrainian people seem not to have done much to develop a truly Ukrainian position. Most recently they've seemed split between those who want close alignment with Russia and those who want close alignment with the West - Western corporate globalization, the EU, NATO. Neither of these is "their own", but only choosing among foreign dominators. So, unfortunately, I don't see any coherent way to support the Ukrainian people, if they can't muster a movement for themselves. (But perhaps they simply aren't a coherent nation, like b says in the post.) So it seems like the place can only be a theater for proxy war between the US/Western aggressor and the Russian defender. The same old historical conflict, merely in its latest incarnation. This one will end the same way as those of Charles XII, Napoleon, Hitler.

Posted by: Russ | Dec 1, 2018 3:11:25 PM | 12

Bush Sr. ran Zapata Oil Company (a CIA front) during the early 60’s. E. Howard Hunt (CIA linked) was an operative.

Hunt repented immediately before pooping-off (circa 2010?) that he was on the back-up squad for the assassination of Kennedy. (See videos.)

In 1977 Hunt and I were prison inmates together at Florida’s Elgin Air Force Base Federal Prison, a nice place: no barbwire fences, -no fences at all! The prison had some tennis courts, a law library, a wood-shop, an art room, and great food. (This is a resort prison for short-time, white-collar criminals.)

Hunt spent his time water-color painting, one after the other. He sold signed originals to admirers for laughably high sums. He said $10K.

Back then I was a professional talker of Federal criminal law and criminal procedure. We spoke on many occasions, including conversations about the Kennedy assassination. Kennedy, he said, insisted upon US inspection of Israel’s Dimona, and the Israelis saw this as an existential threat.

You can draw your own conclusions as to which entity was ultimately responsible for the Kennedy coup.

(BTW, I was also a spectator in Dealey Plaza the day Kennedy was shot. I heard the report of three rifle shots from three directions. A scent of cordite embalmed the air.)

Posted by: A. Person | Dec 1, 2018 3:18:32 PM | 13

craigsummers | 9 |"The Holodomor was recognized in 2006 by the elected Ukrainian government as genocide against Ethnic Ukrainians carried out by Stalin."

Thank you, Craig, for reminding the readers about the organizers of Ukrainian mass murder, such as Lazar Kaganovitch: http://www.germerica.com/2016/02/07/remembering-the-other-holocausts/

"During 1932-33, Stalin sent chief henchman Lazar Kaganovitch to break resistance by Ukrainian independent small farmers to collectivization by starving them to death.

In only a few years, some 6-7 million Ukrainians perished in what they call the Holodomor. No one was ever punished for this historic crime. Stalin told Churchill, “Kaganovitch is my Himmler.”

"On January 13, 2010, Kiev Appellate Court posthumously found Lazar Kaganovich guilty of genocide against Ukrainians for his participation in the 1932-33 Holodomor." https://holodomorinfo.com/tag/lazar-kaganovich/

Posted by: Anya | Dec 1, 2018 3:31:45 PM | 14

Poroschenko is coffin-surfing.
But where to?

Posted by: bjd | Dec 1, 2018 3:43:30 PM | 15

@A. Person (13)

You forgot to look at the sign outside; it is 'Eglin' no 'Elgin'.

Posted by: bjd | Dec 1, 2018 3:59:19 PM | 16

"Besides that he fathered some mediocre sons".

Understatement of the aeon.

Posted by: Tom Welsh | Dec 1, 2018 4:18:38 PM | 17

Posted by: paid jerk-off | Dec 1, 2018 2:44:22 PM | 9

Once again we are subject to the unmistakable Kool-Aid induced fantasies of this paid jerk-off.

Those of us that live in the real world, know that:

>>"Instigated by Russia" is clearly wrong because the Russians were communicating the Ukrainian boats for 12 hours.

>> Nuland was recorded choosing who would be in the next Ukrainian government ("Yats is the guy"). And she admitted that US spent $5b to influence/bribe Ukrainians in the run-up to the coup.

>> Crimean overwhelmingly voted to re-join Russia. The legal grounds for that vote include:

- That Crimea had been illegally given to Ukraine in 1954.

- That, as an autonomous republic, Crimea had previously been denied a vote on its future as provide for under law (Закон СССР от 3.04.1990 № 1409-I).

- That the Ukrainian coup nullified the Ukrainian constitution and treaties made with the Ukrainian State.

>> The new state of Ukraine is openly hostile to anything Russian, despite the fact that a large number of Ukrainian citizens are ethnically Russian.


Take your hand out of your pants and get a real job.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Dec 1, 2018 4:23:54 PM | 18

One might well wonder what Petro Poroshenko has been able to get right lately.

He attempted to separate Orthodox churches under Russian Orthodox Church suzerainty (perhaps to bring them under the Kiev government so their properties could be seized and sold for desperately needed cash) but they ended up passing under the control of the Patriarch of Constantinople.

He tried to stir up a conflict between Ukraine and Russia in the Kerch Strait (perhaps with the hope that the Russians would attack Ukraine and war would flare up that would bring NATO forces into eastern Ukraine and Crimea, and seize Crimea back for Ukraine) but instead Russian coast guard vessels warn the Ukrainian interlopers repeatedly, shoot warning shots and arrest and imprison the Ukrainian crews and impound their vessels.

He tried to use the Kerch Strait incident to impose martial law on eastern and southern Ukraine (to stave off next March's presidential elections which he is sure to lose) but even his colleagues in the Verkhovna Rada see through the ruse, permit only a 30-day martial law and remind him that the elections must proceed as planned.

Poroshenko better start packing his bags to leave the country after March next year.

Maybe the US will offer him safe haven - but after his treatment of Mikheil Saakashvili, in withdrawing the cravativore's Ukrainian citizenship, I doubt it.

Posted by: Jen | Dec 1, 2018 4:38:25 PM | 19

One sees a second village idiot @ 14 revealing her prejudices in justifying the Shoah with reference to a particular henchman of Stalin's (and not any other) and a so-called Holodomor which, curiously, is remembered mainly by Ukrainians living in areas that were not affected by Stalin's policies of collectivisation - because western Ukraine was under Polish rule during the 1930s.

The areas affected by Soviet collectivisation were in eastern Ukraine and include the very areas where Russian-speaking Ukrainians are fighting for the right to speak and use Russian in public.

Posted by: Jen | Dec 1, 2018 4:47:32 PM | 20

@ bjd, 16

Here's another fine thing about Eglin AFB Fed. Prison. After lights out you could slip out between the barracks and smoke pot and sense of the presence of the universe in general.

Posted by: A. Person | Dec 1, 2018 4:55:05 PM | 21

As you will see, the universe has the last laugh always and hubris in one's prime is met with poopy diapers in later years and your wife going before you. I hope he realized what a failure of a Christian he was in life just after the realization that he fathered terrible sons.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 1, 2018 4:59:36 PM | 22

It should perhaps be remembered that G.H.W. had frosty relations with Israel, and that that is one of the reasons he was defeated in the election of 1992. Another important reason was that G.H.W. could not get NAFTA through the Democratic Congress, whereas the powers that be were confident that Bill Clinton could. Hence Perot was brought into the race, to split the Republican vote, then induced to withdraw, when the polling indicated he might actually win, and finally brought back into the race, when it looked as if G.H.W. might win. (Compare 1912, when the defeat of President Taft, who opposed the Federal Reserve law, was ensured by splitting the Republican vote with Teddy Roosevelt's Bull Moose run.)

Posted by: lysias | Dec 1, 2018 5:15:26 PM | 23

Cravativore? He eats ties?

Posted by: lysias | Dec 1, 2018 5:19:17 PM | 24

@ A. Person,

Far be it from me to insist that you do so, because I cannot judge what danger it would present to yourself and your family, but let me point out that, if what you say about the JFK assassination is true, you would be doing the country and the world a great service by coming out in public with your claims.

Posted by: lysias | Dec 1, 2018 5:25:33 PM | 25

I was a big fan of Bush back in the day when I was brain dead.

Bush one of three US Presidents knighted by the Queen, all Republicans.

Bush at one time may have been the CEO of the global elite. Many of the woes in the world today can be attributed to him (from JFK through the 2008 crash) including those deeds done through his son. We will never know all that he was up to of course

Texas politician during the JFK hit, House of Representative in DC, First defacto Ambassador to China, ambassador to UN, Director of CIA, Oil business, and VP ( defacto President) . The sitting President when the Soviets fell and the Yeltson regime took over, and Deng began his market economy with Chinese characteristics, not to mention kicking off the first Iraq War which was in effect the beginning of the GWOT to replace the Cold War.

Although NAFTA is blamed on Clinton the entire deal was negotiated by the Bush team. Time ran out on Bush so it was signed as is by Clinton.

Bush also escalated the War on Drugs to build more jails, more prisons, more courts and hire more prosecutors to imprison more people fir longer periods. The result is a prison population dwarfing anything Stalin and his Gulags ever handled . A 500% increase to over 2 million

His Presidency was limited to 1 term most likely because he refused to approve $10 billion in loan guarantees to help Israel cope with a wave of immigration from the former Soviet Union, and subsequently demanded that Israel freeze its settlement building before agreeing to the request. AIPAC was enraged. So thats on the plus side.

In any event Iran Contra. JFK. House of Saud, Iraq, BCCI , Carlyle Group (financial assets of the Saudi Bin Laden Corporation (SBC) managed by them) . His son Marvin ‘s company (HCC) was one of the issuers of the insurance policy Silverstein took out on WTC months before 9/11. Before that he was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the WTC and Dulles International Airport . The company (Securacom) was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp.

You name it, he had his hands on it in some way big or small. His son George of course was sitting President during 9/11 letting all Saudis in the US fly home when everyone else was grounded , despite the fact most of the hijackers were Saudis. Then Afghanistan and Iraq. Huge contract for Carlyle Group in Iraq. Crash of 2008 and trillions in bailouts on exit to thank Wall Street for their support. Obama supplemented that of course.

The Bush Dynasty has been a travesty for everyone but the Global Elite. So of course he deserves a holiday..

That said, having been taught forgiveness is a virtue, may he RIP.

Posted by: Pft | Dec 1, 2018 5:29:12 PM | 26

Craigsummers@9

Mutual meddling. Yes.

Of course Crimea/Ukraine are in Russias backyard, like Cuba is in ours. Imagine what would happen if Russia sets up a base in Cuba with their permission and starts patrolling the Gulf . We saw a taste of our tolerance for this almost 60 years ago

Posted by: Pft | Dec 1, 2018 5:39:24 PM | 27

@ Pft

Speaking of being brain dead, I voted for G.H.W. in 1988. Last time I voted for a major party presidential candidate. In 1992, I didn't vote, because I was so busy in law school that I let slip the deadline for registering.

Since then, I've known enough about politics to only vote third party. (Although what I said about the Perot and TR candidacies makes me have second thoughts about even voting third party.)

Posted by: lysias | Dec 1, 2018 5:46:09 PM | 28

@9 The Bellingcat article by "an Australian freelance conflict journalist" (???) is worthless because he has never heard of the concept of the "contiguous zone".

As for your first three sentences (I didn't bother to read any further, for obvious reasons)
1) "The incident in the Kersh Strait was instigated by Russia in mutually agreed upon Russian and Ukraine waters (2003 agreement)."

Clearly that agreement became moot the moment that Crimea flipped from being the territory of Ukraine to being Russian territory. You may not agree with the legality of that, but you can't expect Russia to act on *your* interpretation rather than *their* interpretation of the territorial status of Crimea.

2) "Russia illegally annexed Crimea so the Kersh strait is not Russian territorial waters."

The steps that the Crimeans took to secede from Ukraine and then request union with the Russian Federation were all perfectly legal. Far, far more legal than the original steps that Kruschev took to hand Crimea over to the Ukraine in the first place.

Again, you disagree, obviously, but you can not expect the Russians to behave as if your interpretation was a self-evident truth. Certainly not when they disagree with your interpretation.

3) "Indeed, Russia fired on the Ukraine boats in international waters"

Ahem. Contiguous zone. Look it up.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Dec 1, 2018 6:33:23 PM | 29

Have we discussed the new US-Base in the Ukraine already?
https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=101829
The US Empire will never stop to find a way to Russia´s resources, right?

Posted by: K | Dec 1, 2018 6:35:02 PM | 30

i encourage others to read the article b posted under the inherently unstable tag...
Why Everything You've Read About Ukraine Is Wrong

from 2014 forbes article, but i thought it articulated the challenge for ukraine quite well, given the challenge between eastern and western ukraine... it seems to me it is unbridgeable and the only recourse is what is indeed unfolding.. ukraine is dropping down into a type of dictatorship with the ideology of the west being adopted, as opposed to finding a healthy balance between east and west..

my feeling is that 2019 the focus is going to shift strongly to ukraine.. i think this attempt to stir up trouble by poroshenko is only the beginning and that it will be getting worse as we move forward.. of course, i wish it to be different, but that is my feeling..

Posted by: james | Dec 1, 2018 6:42:45 PM | 31

@lysias. (25)

E. Howard Hunt’s comments to me are hearsay, and the official investigation of the JFK case is closed. I’m three-quarters of a century old, I’ve had a good run, and I am in no mood for notoriety. I am redundant to many other civilian investigators of the Kennedy coup.

Further, no one would be surprised by yet another spectator in Dealey Plaza who heard three shots.

Posted by: A. Person | Dec 1, 2018 6:45:48 PM | 32

Times are sad when every President after GHWB has compiled a worse record than his on foreign policy. Well, the jury's still out on Trump but if he doesn't cause a war during his tenure some meager credit will be due.

GHWB: Invaded Panama to dispose of a CIA asset; covert war on Nicaragua; destructive war, sanctions, and Kurdish proxy was on Iraq; role in starting Bosnia fiasco; credit due for standing up to Israel and starting the Oslo peace process; refrained from completely destroying Iraq.

Clinton: Failed to make Israel comply with Oslo agreement; NATO expansion and Kosovo, needlessly worsening relations with Russia; ramped up bombing and destabilization against Iraq.

GWB: Gross negligence allowed 9/11; destruction of Iraq; failed strategy in Afghanistan; failures led to spread of Islamist terrorism; forced revival of North Korean nuclear program.

Obama: Continued failure in Afghanistan; destruction of Libya under false pretenses; attempted destruction of Syria under same; use of Jihadist proxies in Syria and Iraq, leading to rise of ISIS; Ukraine coup; complete destruction of relations with Russia; escalation of campaign against North Korea; worsening relations with China.

IMO Obama comes out as the worst for foreign policy, a tad worse than GWB. Sorry to say, I voted for the guy.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Dec 1, 2018 7:00:36 PM | 33

Let's not forget Reagan. The patron Saint of pouring surplus wealth into the military.

Posted by: John Merryman | Dec 1, 2018 7:40:01 PM | 34

b said in part;"There is little else to say about H.W. Bush. He was a run of the mill war-criminal just like other U.S. presidents were. As CIA director he oversaw and covered up state sponsored terrorism."

Yep, just another war criminal, in service to the empire. I care as much about his passing, as he would care about mine. That is to say, not at all..

Jr @ 18: Thanks for the reality check...

Posted by: ben | Dec 1, 2018 7:42:56 PM | 35

If that seems counter-intuitive, since it was mostly deficit spending, it was borrowing up all that surplus capital out of the economy and paying safe, high interest on it, that was the primary motivation. Buying the ships, jets and guns was effect.

Posted by: John Merryman | Dec 1, 2018 7:44:29 PM | 36

Further proof we're living in a fantasy world, a matrix construct.
HW was just one of our monsters in the continum called the USA...

Posted by: V | Dec 1, 2018 7:51:29 PM | 37

9 - craig: Nobody who understands the situation regarding ukraine believes your patent BS.
There WAS a coup/'color revolution' there as admitted by obummer to cnn's ZAKARIA in 2015, and nuland's involvement regarding $5 bn to that end, who is married to the jew kagan, co-founder of PNAC, which was responsible for 911 & the invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq.

And that other jewish PNAC neocon wolfowitz, with his original doctrine of containment, etc (in NYT 1992): ‘The U.S. must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors [Russia, & to a lessor extent China] that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. In non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. We must maintain the mechanism for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional [on Russia’s western border i.e. ukraine] or global role.’

I mention these very relevant and important details for other readers, more than craig, or whatever his/her/its real name is.

Posted by: Ralph | Dec 1, 2018 8:07:16 PM | 38

@ 25

I have read in various reliable-looking sources that JFK and Ben Gurion were at loggerheads over the nuclear issue. But I think it was much wider than that. There was Vietnam and the MIC, there was his interest in printing money, And then there were the Cuban exiles and his supposedly soft position on Cuba. Plus he fired Allen Dulles, the creator of the CIA, fought with Hoover at the FBI over the Civil Rights movement. More questionable is the assertion that the mafia had blackmailed Kennedy Sr over sensitive matters with the requirement that JFK go easy on them, which he didn't. Robert started digging up some real shit on them.

I think it was around this time that the CIA, MI6 and the Mossad became operative as a group. At present it looks like the gang of three are plotting anti-Russian operations from London - no Hillary to cover for them in the US. Too many things are coming out of London for it to be solely MI6.

Posted by: Lochearn | Dec 1, 2018 8:08:16 PM | 39

Perhaps Craig and Anya are a couple?

The Ukrainian problem since independence in 1991 has always been coruption, not 'Russian domination' but home grown unbridled greed amongst what passes for the political class. The orange people who showed up at Maidan (those who were not paid provocateurs) were protesting systemic corruption and looking for a free lunch from the EU (including things like visa free travel so they could work in Europe). The 2014 coup was supported by the west for geopolitical reasons, not because anyone cared about the Ukrainian population, and was greenlighted when Yanukovitch refused to sign the association agreement as then offered because he understood it would be economic suicide for Ukraine. Russia was unwilling to be taken advantage of by the EU (letting Ukraine become a conduit for EU tarrif free goods) and threatened to cut off Ukraine's special status as a trading partner. Since the EU refused to take Russia's concerns into account there was an impasse and the delay sought by Yanukovitch triggered the coup. That said Ukraine has never had a viable political plan - just a collection of fiefdoms vying with each other for advantage. The coup changed nothing on that score but ruined relations with Ukraine's largest and most important trading partner and allowed radical fascists from western Ukraine to gain significant political power... and start a civil war... and loss of Crimea. A complete disaster, self inflicted, no 'green men' from Russia required. The Euromaidan crowd lives in a unicorn fantasy world, selfish and deluded. They have done nothing positive for Ukraine and contributed to the divisive, hateful demonization of everything Russian that is contributing to it's destruction. Move to Estonia and suck off the EU tit without screwing up the lives of others, that's my advice.

Posted by: the pessimist | Dec 1, 2018 8:14:13 PM | 40

14: I think poroshitko/waltzman(?) is of a similar type of person to kaganovich - note the 1st part of his name kagan. Other readers here will be able to connect the links...

Posted by: Ralph | Dec 1, 2018 8:15:40 PM | 41

Superb!

Just for the speculation I would add that according to US historian (sorry I don't remember his name but I believe he has made documental series named 'the hidden history of usa') he supervised or even was the sniper who blown the head of the most famous and still loved us president.

Posted by: G | Dec 1, 2018 8:38:38 PM | 42

Lochearn, (39)

When Johnson became President aid to Israel skyrocketed, so to speak. In ’67 we had the Israeli dastardly attack on the USS Liberty, and Johnson squashed the rescue. Assassinations are considered a viable tool to the Israelis. This is all circumstantial, but, as the organ grinder’s monkey said while streaking a stream of piss across the carpet, “you gotta draw the line somewhere.”

Posted by: A. Person | Dec 1, 2018 8:48:40 PM | 43

The Holodomor is mythical. The idea that Ukrainian peasants were deliberately starved to death by the USSR is as untrue as it is unlikely.
What it most interesting about the Holodomor nonsense is that the "ethnic Ukrainians" who claim to have been the object of Stalin's murderous attentions were not part of the USSR at the time, most of them lived in Poland.
The propaganda around the Holodomor was first invented by Goebbels, later improved by Cold Warriors in the UK, Canada and the US and is the central myth that holds the Bandera fascists and the remnants of the 14th Waffen SS together.
Thanks to Craig Summers for putting his imprimatur on these Galician slanders: nothing is more certain to indicate to readers that lying imperialist propaganda is being dispensed than his association with it.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 1, 2018 8:54:04 PM | 44

Putin’s high five with MBS was hilarious. The two bad guys of the moment. Forget Rocket Man and Erdo; Vlad and MBS are the perfect duo of evil. One young, one older; one cautious, the other reckless; infectious smile hiding dastardly deeds meets the smile that isn’t a smile. Scrutable versus inscrutable.

The problem in the script is that there’s no good guys to sort them out. Trump is desperate to go on a bender with these two. I can see them racing up to Vegas, MBS stuffed with coke, grinning furiously. But who would be at the wheel? Trump, of course. It’s his country. So who have we left? The rather delicate Macron with delusions of Napoleon? The pretty clapped out Merkel? Not Mrs May, please! Oh, I know. Mike Pence. He of the ice-cold gaze. On second thoughts… Where's James Bond when you need him?

Posted by: Lochearn | Dec 1, 2018 9:19:14 PM | 45

Those interested in the Israeli undercurrents in the assassination of JFK may be interested in this article, published this year at Unz Review:

Did Israel Kill the Kennedys? - by Laurent Guyénot

He shows the Israeli connections to the murder as being pretty strong. Likewise with Bobby Kennedy, who was only waiting to become president so he could re-open the investigation of his brother's death.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 1, 2018 9:54:44 PM | 46

the devil take them all, Bush senior and the sons and all their neo-con advisors and war-criminal compatriots who have worked so diligently to shore up and expand Capitalism, thereby assuring the destruction of the natural environment of the world, and all their militarism and war-mongering which has likewise brought us to the brink of nuclear war and utter disaster and chaos.


Posted by: michaelj72 | Dec 1, 2018 9:58:33 PM | 47

Ralph @ 38: Thanks for that 92' quote from Wolfowitz. The goals of empire haven't changed.

Posted by: ben | Dec 1, 2018 10:48:43 PM | 48

No surprise to find Canada's Banderite FM leading the Russophobic charge...

Canada Led Joint G7 Statement Condemning Russian Aggression in Ukraine, Says Freeland (with video)

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2018/11/30/canada-led-joint-g7-statement-condemning-russian-aggression-in-ukraine-says-freeland.html

"Canada has spearheaded a G7 foreign-ministers' statement that condemns Russian aggression in Ukraine and urges the release of detained sailors, Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland says..."

In other news the president of the ultranationalist Ukrainian Canadian Congress, Paul Grod, has been elected President of the World Ukraianian Congress lobby, meeting in Kyiv. Grod, famous for urging Canadian benefits for SS Galizien veterans in Canada, is also a longtime associate of Freeland's.

Posted by: John Gilberts | Dec 1, 2018 11:17:43 PM | 49

@30 Have we discussed the new US-Base in the Ukraine already?
https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=101829
The US Empire will never stop to find a way to Russia´s resources, right?
@40 Pessimist confirms Craig with Anya marriage.. but bevin @ 44 adds a third party..

my point in all of the excellent points and bits of facts and histories made here represent many facts and much information that spans long time frames; which overwhelmingly
suggest a hypothesis that "organized crime [OC] is in charge of state level capitalism"?

If that were a fact proven by the methods of science, then heads of state would no longer be elite personal representatives of the people but instead elements of this or that crime family.

If the whole of the problem of war and aggression and misuse of government funds for private gain or extra-national purpose were identified to be not conflict of national interest but instead the result of the criminal intent of entrenched OC (nation state leaders would be seen as war lords placed by OC to use the official powers of the state to advance the cause of OC.

Placing criminal war lords in government allows the crime families to direct the awesome forces and powers of the state against innocent parties unwilling to pay protection or to force owners of megabuck farms, mineral deposits, and businesses to hand them over to OC.


Instead of talking about the head of a state as a "person elite" the head of state becomes a criminal element in such and such criminal empire which is part of globally organized set of interacting criminal empires.

This simple transformation in prospective may well cause the masses to wake up to the exploitation by their own governments they are experiencing.

Hypothesis: organized crime, as defined in (ref) exist.
Hypothesis: organized crime has elements in government.
(a different hypothesis for each government needs to be proven)..
Hypothesis: organized crime has elements at many levels in the governments it has invaded..
Hypothesis: organized crime is the driving cause for war
(Each war is a separate hypothesis)?.
Hypothesis: organized crime is or explains

and many more hypothesis can be developed. If each hypothesis is numbered and a system developed to test them one by one, it may soon be possible to fully understand
and more important (to agree on) that which, until now, has been but a fleeing, person to person, divided memory of debate (of the meaning in news articles that stretch over a quantum of time). News articles are not the same as evidence? But evidence might be discovered from the news in the article. Evidence supports or destroys the hypothesis. verifiable History and confirmed current events can prove or disprove each hypothesis one by one. In time, a full understanding will emerge.

Posted by: snake | Dec 2, 2018 12:23:24 AM | 50

One thing is for sure. Poroshenko does a far better jobb licking ass than leading a country

Posted by: Hem Lock | Dec 2, 2018 1:47:56 AM | 51

Has anyone read this article:

The EU plan to circumvent laws governing migration exposed

The information in the article is so ludicrous as to be incomprehensible - a too crazy to be true moment! It is about the UN Compact on Migration and secret EU maneuvering.

Posted by: BM | Dec 2, 2018 2:01:19 AM | 52

re BM

I'm confused - why would anyone believe or bother quoting and article from AfD?

Posted by: laguerre | Dec 2, 2018 2:47:28 AM | 53

bevin 44

ditto

Posted by: ashley albanese | Dec 2, 2018 6:11:38 AM | 54

@craigsummers - well-written and very convincing. thanks.

Posted by: jason | Dec 2, 2018 6:30:11 AM | 55

Maps of mortality in 1933 USSR. The first one shows urban mortality, the second one shows mortality in villages. Both maps show mortality in ‰ (1/10 of a %). The average mortality in the preceding year was 20.2‰. Everything above that value is colored red, everything below that value is colored green. In other words, these maps are colored according to the severity of the famine. The second map is more important, as most people in 1933 USSR still lived in the countryside (except Moscow and Leningrad oblasts). Unfortunately, the map does not include data for Transcaucasia, Central Asia, parts of Siberia, and Far East; this is especially important in the case of Kazakhstan, where the famine was severe. The total number of deaths from famine shown on these maps (i.e., excluding Kazakhstan) is 2.5 million, of which 1.35 million is in the Ukraine.

Posted by: S | Dec 2, 2018 6:41:42 AM | 56

Claims of 6–7 million dead in the Ukraine or even 10 million dead in the Ukraine are unsupported by data.

The source for the maps above is РГАЭ 1562.40.41 Л.15-46. РГАЭ stands for Российский Государственный Архив Экономики (Russian State Archive of Economics), located in Moscow. See their website for information on how to visit the archive.

Posted by: S | Dec 2, 2018 6:58:16 AM | 57

@9 craigsummers

By Soviet laws every republic seeking to part ways with USSR had to have referendums un all their internal autonomous republics and regions whether those stay in USSR or in separating republic.

Not only Ukraine failed to have this referendum in Crimea in 1991, next year Ukraine committed violent armed oppression against Crimeans' attempt to restore lawful USSR exit process.

So, by your own metrics, Ukrainians are criminal separatists who are, by your own metrics, subject to law restoration regardless of means and casualties.

Posted by: Arioch | Dec 2, 2018 8:00:17 AM | 58

MoA: History proved that the neo-conservative view, which infests U.S. foreign policy up to today, is wrong, and that the realist view is right.

Actually it was the opposite.
Bush said "America willd not help ... nazi", neo-cons said "Discouraging nazi is anti-american chickenism".

History proven Bush wrong and neocons right on this.

Posted by: Arioch | Dec 2, 2018 8:19:00 AM | 59

Anya | Dec 1, 2018 3:31:45 PM | 14

Stalin told Churchill, “Kaganovitch is my Himmler.”

Ironic, given Kaganovich was Jewish, as was Beria (his mother was a Karaite, a Jewish sect).

Further irony, Jewish oligarchs are using neo-Nazis in Ukraine to ethnically cleanse the east of Russian speaking Ukranians.

Posted by: Entropy Wins | Dec 2, 2018 9:29:35 AM | 60

laguerre (53) - Try this, it's very much official about forced migration: https://refugeesmigrants.un.org/sites/default/files/180713_agreed_outcome_global_compact_for_migration.pdf

Posted by: Ralph | Dec 2, 2018 9:45:12 AM | 61

@53 laguerre - "why would anyone..."

It's an Editor's Choice article at Strategic Culture. Personally I find a lot of good analysis in those.

The author is a member of parliament, and what she distills out of the secret initiative afoot is pretty compelling. I think she's right to say that this migration compact really is more about the migration of poverty than the migration of social gain. She's right to grasp and highlight the fact that the EU is bringing this law in under the radar, labeling it a "subsidiary procedure" rather than a legal act, and thus bypassing various inspection procedures. It's an old administrative trick in every country in every time, sleight of hand by un-elected bureaucrats to weaken the power of public scrutiny.

On reflection from this article, and the material supplied by Ralph at #61, it seems important to notice that the rise in some countries of patriotism is a force that opposes the globalist elite agenda. This is the reason for unbridled immigration. Migrant waves are being used in civil society as a form of attack against the strength and national identity of communities, in the same way that mercenaries and fanatics are sent as waves of attack against national security structures.

It's deliberate. And it's the cousin of the terrorism we see in the world. All launched by the global establishment - for want of a better term - against populations to divide them and weaken them. (Getting them to disregard articles that contain substance because of political party labels, for example.)

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 2, 2018 10:28:25 AM | 62

@62 "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Newton's Third Law.

Posted by: dh | Dec 2, 2018 11:11:17 AM | 63

Even an old lefty like me finds himself agreeing with a lot that old school conservatives write these days. Here is Peter Hitchens' take on recent events involving Ukraine, as part of his latest blog: https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/12/were-all-still-suffering-from-enochs-craziest-cruellest-idea.html

Posted by: Shakesvshav | Dec 2, 2018 1:20:13 PM | 64

@ lysias | Dec 1, 2018 5:19:17 PM | 24

Cravativore? He eats ties?
__________________________________________

He tries, although he doesn't appear to entirely succeed.

Here are the DuckDuckGo search results for "Saakashvili chewing tie video". Enjoy!

Posted by: Ort | Dec 2, 2018 1:24:16 PM | 65

hey ort... i see craig murray continues on with his sea of azov one trick pony comment... i also saw you commenting on it.. good for you..

Posted by: james | Dec 2, 2018 1:31:53 PM | 66

@ Shakesvshav | Dec 2, 2018 1:20:13 PM | 64

Even an old lefty like me finds himself agreeing with a lot that old school conservatives write these days.
_____________________________________

It's become almost commonplace to observe that the established or traditional left/right political spectrum model no longer meaningfully reflects sociopolitical reality. I think this is a topic worth discussing in and of itself, although perhaps not on a news and current events-driven site like MOA.

FWIW, this year I've struggled with that insight, if "struggle" is the right word. I'm an old (63 yrs) lefty too.

I find that I am increasingly able to both generally tolerate, and specifically agree with, many nominally "right-wing" or conservative pundits. But this is emphatically not the stereotypical journey of the Young Idealist who gradually morphs into a Hyper-Reactionary Curmudgeon, à la David Horowitz.

Both the wretched progressive-liberals and even bona-fide leftists, e.g. Paul Street, seem increasingly ideology-bound and blinkered these days.

Meanwhile, I remain as anti-capitalist, anti-authoritarian, pro-socialist, etc. as ever.

I obviously don't have some final wisdom to convey; as noted, I find it unpleasantly disorienting at times to find "good" in public figures I previously dismissed and even loathed. It's something like standing in chest-high water in the ocean, being surreptitiously caught in an undertow, and suddenly noticing that one has been transported into the very group of repellent bathers one had been attempting to avoid all day.

Posted by: Ort | Dec 2, 2018 1:45:12 PM | 67

@: james | Dec 2, 2018 1:31:53 PM | 66
__________________________________________

Thanks. As you doubtless saw, Craig has posted a string of angry, hostile replies defending his position throughout that thread-- or at least the first couple of pages. I stopped reading.

As I suggested in the comment to which Craig responded, I don't regard Craig's wrongheaded view of this incident as a "deal-breaker", i.e. something so offensive that it prompts the nuclear "I'm done with him!" reaction. For now, I just know that he cannot be trusted to fairly assess Russian matters.

I won't bother elaborating, but there are a few pundit-types that similarly have become like "curate's eggs" to me, i.e. parts of them are still excellent. I discreetly spit out the inedible portions into my napkin. ;)

Posted by: Ort | Dec 2, 2018 1:55:11 PM | 68

@62 Grieved

„...it seems important to notice that the rise in some countries of patriotism is a force that opposes the globalist elite agenda.“
This is not patriotism.
„... the strength and national identity of communities,..“
We talk about politics here? „Identity“ is not a part of politics, cannot be bargained with people that have other interests.
The best overview about this cheating theatre you may find here:

http://norberthaering.de/de/27-german/news/1074-migrationstheater

Theatre includes the AfD and the alt-right as well. They need this topic and they depend on playing it in a hysterical way.

Posted by: Hausmeister | Dec 2, 2018 2:02:58 PM | 69

I remember having read some years ago about GHW Bush being a nazi agent,so I did google his name and Martin Bormann ,bingo! here's the article which promises interesting readings,as for the truth of it I do not have the slightest idea:it speaks about the revelations of Otto Skorzeny,personal bodyguard to A.Hitler

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/martinbormannphotostocompare02jul07.shtml#top

Posted by: willie | Dec 2, 2018 4:37:40 PM | 70

Somehow b. I think you misinterpret what Bush senior was doing. Remember, he was a CIA guy.

That speech was in the context of Yugoslavia.

A year before the breakup of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, on Nov. 5, 1990, the U.S. Congress passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Law 101-513. This bill was a signed death warrant. One provision in particular was so lethal that even a CIA report described three weeks later in the Nov. 27, 1990, New York Times predicted it would lead to a bloody civil war.

A section of Law 101-513 suddenly and without previous warning cut off all aid, trade, credits and loans from the U.S. to Yugoslavia within six months. It also ordered separate elections in each of the six republics that make up Yugoslavia, requiring State Department approval of election procedures and results before aid to the separate republics would be resumed. The legislation further required U.S. personnel in all international financial institutions such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund to enforce this cut-off policy for all credits and loans.

There was one final provision. Only forces that the U.S. State Department defined as "democratic forces" would receive funding. This meant an influx of funds to small right-wing nationalist parties in a financially strangled region suddenly thrown into crisis by the overall funding cut-off.

Bush was warning the Ukrainians that the US would support Ukrainian independence only if promoted by forces the US approved. Saying "in the center and in the republics" acknowledged very much these were separate entities.

The US would never support ethnic or religious strife. For some reason, this just happens whereever the US is involved. People living outside of geopolitical zones of interest, with no natural resources to speak of, rarely have a problem to share the space they live in.

Posted by: somebody | Dec 2, 2018 4:40:13 PM | 71

James -

Notice in that Saker piece cited by Lozion (4) how often the name Jeffrey Sachs appears in the Engdahl interview.

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Dec 2, 2018 4:47:00 PM | 72

Further to my posting @ #49, it is significant that Canada's FM in articulating the G7 position on the Kerch incident on the video included, refers to the Ukrainian personnel in custody as "prisoners of war". It is a significant description with mind-boggling implications. Is this the view of G7 or is this the view of the Galician Nazi's grand-daughter, Freeland?

Posted by: John Gilberts | Dec 2, 2018 5:01:59 PM | 73

Thanks for many interesting subjects linked on this thread. The Engdahl interview filled in many blanks; thank you, Lozion. Goodness, even a Kashoggi! Plus an explanation of the importance of gold that I can understand - there is no 'holder of the debt' (I forget the actual term) when gold is the basis of the monetary system. Really well worth it, the entire interview, though I would recommend listening as well as reading the transcript (the latter not quite accurate in places.)

And thanks to Grieved also for the UNZ review article. I am happy (though ultimately still sad) to hear the potential John Kennedy, Jr. was about to capitalize on. I did not know his wife was expecting, makes it even sadder.

Must also mention the immigrant article with geopolitical orginizational ramifications. I would agree on the poverty aspect, reminds me of the TPP sort of, Greeks bearing gifts, those 'Greeks' having caused the migratory flow in the first place. We're doing a pretty good yearly wrap up here, and it's not even the new year yet!

Gotta put my feet up and digest all of this. Quite a Sunday.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 2, 2018 6:38:13 PM | 74

Reagan began the first economic sanctions on Yugoslavia. GHW Bush tightened the screws. CIA was on the ground there inciting riots and creating false flags events - murders which pitted one ethnic group against another. The dissolution of the USSR dovetailed nicely with the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Clinton engaged the months long brutal bmobing campaigns. Hillary boasts that she encouraged Bill to bmob Belgrade civilians. Radio and TV stations, electricity and water plants were destroyed (this is typical NATO FUSUKIS behavior - the rule - not the exception). Germany hated Yugoslavia too. Maybe someone can illuminate that aspect.

The USA built a huge Army base in Kosovo - a disputed territory btw Serbia and Albania. Picked the best spot to rub salt in the wound. One of the largest bases in the world. Aptly named Camp Bondsteel.

Now all the tiny countries are broke AF. The multinational corps stole everything that wasn't bolted down.

It is interesting the way one US admin picks up where the previous one leaves off. Highly coordinated - the planning, the yellow journalism, false flag events, the ever-tightening economic sanctions, and ultimately the looting and destruction of Yugoslavia. Every effort was handed off and continued apace over a period of 20 years and 3 US Presidential Admins.

It was surely a model for the destruction of Iraq.

Posted by: fast freddy | Dec 2, 2018 6:54:13 PM | 75

@46 Grieved

Here's a more in-depth treatment of the same thesis by the much-defamed Michael Collins Piper. The work is not without some flaws, among them a ponderous style and overreaching on some tangential and thin historical details, but overall it is well substantiated.

http://www.unz.com/book/michael_collins_piper__final-judgment/

Posted by: Thirdeye | Dec 2, 2018 8:47:54 PM | 76

@68 ort... keep chipping in.. i got banned at cm's site, so am voiceless, lol...apparently i offended the british sensibilities, which is easier then i had thought...

@72 bart hansen... regarding the engdahl interview and jeffrey sachs... first off, the article, aside from going over a lot of info that i was already familiar with - left out browder, lol.... he could have thrown him in their in the western kleptomaniac phase of russia in the 90's... but really - it was like reading a gold bug interview...

as for jeffery sachs role, it is interesting to note how sachs has made a 180 turn from his position back then.. too back those individuals like browder are incapable of that and continue on with their hate for russia, as apparently they just couldn't steal as much as they had intended... here is sachs on syria from morning joe april 2018... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYgYTQuqQX8

i think sachs has had some wake up along the way... it would be interesting to hear his thoughts on russia or on ukraine today... here is a long youtube interview from 2017 with him.. too bad they don't have a transcript for it.. i don't have the heart to listen to a podcast... give me a transcript any day of the week over these slow moving podcasts...

Posted by: james | Dec 2, 2018 9:42:28 PM | 77

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhyD-fPS0vs - goes with my @77 post at bottom... back - bad...

Posted by: james | Dec 2, 2018 9:43:54 PM | 78

@b

This article is an Editor's Choice at strategic-culture.org. They credit this site and supply a link back. I don't see this mentioned here, so FYI and sorry if redundant.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 2, 2018 11:01:23 PM | 79

Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova
https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/12/kiev-saves-no-one-russia-protects-europe-from-ukraines-barbarism-maria-zakharova/

"Russia is protecting Europe from the barbarism and militarism from Ukraine that are hanging over the whole continent"

Give the US ziocons their dues (comment section):
"Backward Jewkraine with its Nazis and Terrorists and thanks to those Anglo Jewish Nazis from USraheil and NATO Vassal Bitches."

Ouch!

Posted by: Anya | Dec 3, 2018 7:41:07 AM | 80

US and Israel have been arming Ukrainian neo-Nazis:

https://grayzoneproject.com/2018/04/07/the-us-is-arming-and-assisting-neo-nazis-in-ukraine-while-congress-debates-prohibition/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727

The Ukrainian population is steadily decreasing:

https://sputniknews.com/politics/201706091054487552-ukraine-eu-population-decline/

"High migration readiness, gloomy forecasts for the future, the impoverishment of citizens, the wild growth of criminal statistics, the ruined health care system, the fall of the birth rate and, finally, the civil war and the punitive operation in the Donbass. One can also mention here the absence of opportunities for young people, heavy corruption, human rights abuse, and the criminal dictatorship of militants who returned from the so-called ATO zone [in Donbass]."

Posted by: Anya | Dec 3, 2018 7:42:43 AM | 81

relevant to Pft 26 --

For those interested in a more in-depth look at the relationship between Bush 41, the Bush clan in general, and the Deep (read "undemocratic and criminal") State, I highly recommend Mark Gorton's "Fifty Years of the Deep State", and the audio treatment at Unwelcome Guests in the link above, specifically Unwelcome Guests #686.

Posted by: Researcher | Dec 3, 2018 10:11:25 AM | 82

77 - James - My mention of the Engdahl interview was just to point out the preponderance of Sachs mentions. As I recall, Summers got one mention and Rubin none.

You bring up Browder. Recently I was thinking that if the Kremlin wanted to poison anyone in England it would be him rather than the Skripals. They have shown great restraint concerning St. William.

Thanks for the video of Sachs on Mourning Joe. He almost sounds like Stephen F. Cohen on Syria! The admiral fell back on the old "but Assad uses chemical weapons!" ploy which he knew would work with Mika.

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Dec 3, 2018 10:16:22 AM | 83

@83 bart.. yes, i did notice that... i guess sachs was a part of the harvard team that knew best what to do for the newly opened russia in the early 90's... it would be interesting to read what sachs has to say on that now.. i seem to recall he holds a very different position on it now, but i am not sure where a link or video on his more recent views on russia are.. indeed as you note in the morning joe interview - he has a very clear picture on just how messed up the west is with regard to syria and russia with regard to syria now!

Posted by: james | Dec 3, 2018 1:45:47 PM | 84

James @ 84: Straight from the horse's mouth
https://twitter.com/JeffDSachs/status/1018231643566493698

Posted by: Jen | Dec 3, 2018 7:40:21 PM | 85

@85 jen... i am sorry to read that.. obviously jeffery sachs is quite capable of swallowing the koolaid as he sees fit... i see the usa as a very polluted atmosphere politically and in other ways that really stand out... you see it here on moa where the americans go nuts over which way they have been polarized - democrats or republicians... very few of them seem to be able to stand back and see how they are being played.. jackrabbit is one of those though... the whole system is set up for the war party to win every time... watching what is happening in france right now, i wonder how many now question getting macron in power and whether that was really what they wanted? they were sworn off le pen thanks the msm, but look what they have now.. a closer dance with neoliberalism.. macron has been a disaster... trump continues to be a disaster, but for sachs to swallow this russia paranoia says a lot about his ability to think independently... he can't obviously...

Posted by: james | Dec 3, 2018 11:18:56 PM | 86

jen - thanks for that btw!!!

Posted by: james | Dec 3, 2018 11:19:45 PM | 87

The Holodmor is a myth.

There was famine in the USSR that year, of course. But once Stalin became aware of the problem,
immediate steps were taken to deal with it.

Not ever mentioned, are the repeated famines of the Czarist years, nor is it mentioned that the bolshevik governments basically eliminated famine in the Soviet Union.

Nor, ever mentioned are the repeated plebiscites held in Crimea, during and after the breakup of the Soviet Union which declared independence from Ukraine.

Nor, is it ever acknowledged that no one in the USA has the right to tell the peoples of the FSU how to live, where to live, what government to have, and where it's capital should be.

Just as no one in the FSU has the right to tell Americans how, where, and when to live, work, and play.

Bellingkat's view is rubbish! If Kosovo can be taken by Albania at gun point, NATO gunpoint in fact, then Crimea can revert to Russia via the ballot box.

And, if the Poroshenko government, and the governments of the baltic states are so wonderful, then why have > 20% of their populations emigrated abroad?

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W. Oprisko | Dec 3, 2018 11:58:25 PM | 88

Ukraine annexed Crimea: https://www.globalresearch.ca/what-america-should-know-about-annexed-crimea-we-the-people-of-crimea/5573750

Posted by: Shakesvshav | Dec 5, 2018 5:44:50 AM | 89

The Atlantic Council recommends(!) Ukraine to provoke Russia into a major military conflict, for example, to blow up the Kerch bridge. Terrorism at the state level is a new routine for the Western elites.

Posted by: alaff | Dec 5, 2018 5:03:49 PM | 90

Poroshenko specifically comments so that he was noticed and remembered in the White House? What does he want to achieve with this? Why the corporation Poroshenko "Roshen" works in Russia https://legat.by/?country=ru&entity=1054800244290? In Russia and the neighboring country - Belarus, chocolate and sweets produced by Roshen are still being sold, those that were made in Ukraine. Why Poroshenko defines Russia as an enemy, but his corporation still has trade relations with Russia?

Posted by: Helena | Dec 10, 2018 10:28:11 AM | 91

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Working...