Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
December 29, 2018

To Win The 2020 Race Trump Will Need To Fire More Of His Staff

We pointed out that overruling his advisors by ending the U.S. war on Syria was a decision that will define Trump's presidency:

This was the first time Trump took a decisive stand against the borg, the permanent neoconservative and interventionist establishment in his administration, the military and congress, that usually dictates U.S. foreign policy.

It was this decision, and that he stuck to it, which finally made him presidential.

Three analysts explain why Trump will need to go further down that road by finding people who diligently implement his foreign policy instead of undermining it.

Gareth Porter describes how the U.S. military under Secretary of Defense Mattis implemented its own policy, one far from President Trump's wishes. It delayed his policy of withdrawal from Syria again and again. Trump finally broke the scheme:

Mattis and Dunford were consciously exploiting Trump’s defensiveness about a timeline to press ahead with their own strategy unless and until Trump publicly called them on it. That is what finally happened some weeks after Trump’s six month deadline had passed. The claim by Trump advisors that they were taken by surprise was indeed disingenuous. What happened last week was that Trump followed up on the clear policy he had laid down in April.

The former Indian Ambassador Bhadrakumar also calls Mattis resignation a defining moment in U.S. foreign policy. He points out that the resistance of the borg against the elected president's policy is in defiance of the will of the people:

The really stunning part is that the bulk of America’s political class, think tanks and the media have rallied to support Mattis in an astounding display of defiance and spite toward their elected president. Suffice to say, there has been an insurrection against Trump’s foreign policy agenda and Mattis was a key figure in that enterprise. Quintessentially, the established American political system – what Trump calls the “Swamp” – refuses to make way for the elected president, his mandate from the people for his political platform notwithstanding. Isn’t it a sham that the US claims to have a government “of the people, by the people, for the people”?

The majority of the people indeed agree with Trump's policy:

Fifty-two percent of respondents said they back the moves in Syria and Afghanistan, which came as a surprise to the president’s own national security advisers when it was announced last week. By contrast, 48 percent said they oppose the troop withdrawals and reductions, the poll found.

Now, that the decision is made, even Obama's Ambassador to Syria Robert Ford, who personally instigated the insurgency against the Syrian government, comes out in favor of the Trump ordered retreat:

Many observers have asserted that the withdrawal gives victory in Syria to Russia, Iran and the Syrian government. That’s absurd. Bashar al-Assad’s regime already controls about two-thirds of Syria, including all of the major cities. The portion of Syria that U.S. forces control alongside their Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) allies is mostly either desert or drought-prone plains. The oil fields there produce high-sulfur, low-value crude, and production has long been diminishing. Oil revenue made up only about 5 percent of Syrian gross domestic product before the 2011 uprising, according to the International Monetary Fund. In sum, holding northeastern Syria would not have enabled Washington to leverage any important concessions from Damascus, Tehran or Moscow.

In a clear rejection of John Bolton's and Mattis' overt manipulation of Trump's policies, Ford urges Trump to bring the people under him in line with his own ideas:

[T]he president needs to consider how his own foreign policy team got so far out ahead of him on Syria. He needs a National Security Council staff that can more clearly relay his cautions and concerns about U.S. foreign policy to the people in charge of executing it. That staff needs to make clear to officials in the departments that, while he hears various departments’ views, those departments must act on his guidance. Ensuring implementation is the NSC’s job. The president would benefit politically and, more importantly, U.S. national security would benefit from a more effective foreign policy team.

Porter makes a similar point:

The Syria withdrawal affair is a dramatic illustration of the fundamental quandary of the Trump presidency in regard to ending the state of permanent war that previous administrations created. Although a solid majority of Americans want to rein in U.S. military deployments in the Middle East and Africa, Trump’s national security team is committed to doing the opposite.
Trump is now well aware that it is virtually impossible to carry out the foreign policy that he wants without advisors who are committed to the same objective. That means that he must find people who have remained outside the system during the permanent war years while being highly critical of its whole ideology and culture. If he can fill key positions with truly dissident figures, the last two years of this term in office could decisively clip the wings of the bureaucrats and generals who have created the permanent war state we find ourselves in today.

Bhadrakumar sees a continuous struggle ahead, but believes that Trump knows of the importance to assert his policy:

[Mattis'] exit is not going to be the end of the vicious struggle going on in American politics. The good part is that Trump seems to understand that it will be a downhill slope ahead of him unless he took a last-ditch stance and dug in now to assert his constitutional prerogative as the president to push his foreign policy agenda. The point is, that agenda also happens to be linked to Trump’s campaign platform for the 2020 election.

To win in the 2020 elections Trump needs to show that he fulfilled the promises he made during the 2016 campaign. Draining the swamp and ending U.S. military involvement throughout the world were two of his major points. Both have a large constituency. Finally finding people who support these policies, instead of undermining them, would definitely increase his chance to win the next election.

Who will he choose?

Posted by b on December 29, 2018 at 18:59 UTC | Permalink

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reply to:Posted by: john wilson | Dec 30, 2018 6:00:08 AM | 75
Just want to give some background on the reason for new mega planes. The US historically used Russian mega planes for transport. Russia ended US access to said planes a few years ago, hence the need to create a US version.

Posted by: frances | Dec 30 2018 18:03 utc | 101

reply to:Posted by: Robert Snefjella | Dec 30, 2018 11:19:19 AM | 90
Interesting points, thank you. Yes it is possible to see Trump and his Tweets as "punching above their weight."
I laughed when I read the Yellow Vests were attacking media stations with cries of, "Fake News." Good for them to "kill" the messenger, they certainly deserve it.
Again, thank you for the excellent HC votes White Paper:)

Posted by: frances | Dec 30 2018 18:24 utc | 102

From my understanding, kinetic energy is measured in joules. Steels ability to absorb impact energy is measured on the charpy test.
Although the kinetic energy of the aircraft (give or take a bit) is easily found I guess the mathematical equations need to determine the columns ability to absorb that energy would be quite complicated.
Some time ago I looked for the specs of the steel (cross section, alloy, heat treatment) used at the levels the planes hit, but it seems they are not available.
I was more interested in how the steel responds to heat as I believe the columns were a low alloy heat treated steel. Heat treated steel can lose a great deal of its strength at relatively low temps.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 30 2018 18:29 utc | 103

Frances @100

There is already a one state solution in place; Trump's job is to stuff it down the throats of the Palestinians.

What you are asking for is to hope on Trump until' 2024! Trump won't do anything for Palestian's, neither has any other President, neither will the next President. The Palestinians are on their own and they know it.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 19:00 utc | 104

reply to
Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30, 2018 2:00:21 PM | 104
I don't disagree with you, I am only suggesting that Trump wants to get an actual agreement in place rather than let it run on as an unending nightmare and money pit for the US. And I am not suggesting he is pro Palestinian, I agree with you that no US President sadly ever has been.

Posted by: frances | Dec 30 2018 19:11 utc | 105

karlof1 @69

I wouldn't go as far as Circe but she has a point. Trump may not be able to achieve anything, he may not even want to achieve anything, he may just be applying his "art of the deal" to the voters, he may just be a con job.

The Syrian withdrawal may happen but it might all be a just be prelude to another war (e.g. on Venezuela).

I hope that Trump makes a real difference but it's suspect that he really will. Your anger at Circe is because she hit a nerve.

There are no protests in US calling for an end to the wars, or more jobs, or more pay. I suspect it's what many American's want but they're not organising, campaigning or protesting on these issues. What real pressure is there for change? None, really. The discourse is just about Trump, Trump, Trump; it's going nowhere, it's just chasing your tail thinking you're making progress.

And another election cycle lumbers into view, and American's will go to the polls to again vote for change and the same fake "progress" process starts again.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 19:25 utc | 106

Frances @105

You're suggesting that a one-state solution that permanently makes Palestinians 2nd class citizens is acceptable? If so, you really have been drinking the Trump kool-aid.

This is no solution, this is no settlement; it is just the continuation of the nightmare.

I really can't believe what I'm reading, please tell me that I have misunderstood?

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 19:35 utc | 107

You call this hitting a nerve
"Newsflash: frances and karlof1 have odeed on the Trumpjuice."
Coming from a stopped clock like circe and directed at someone that covers and puts up links to a lot of diverse information, that's a bit rich.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 30 2018 19:38 utc | 108

reply to
I really can't believe what I'm reading, please tell me that I have misunderstood?
Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30, 2018 2:35:45 PM | 10
Yes, you have misunderstood; I was not advocating for what you described. I am only saying that he will want to get an agreement.
Ideally it would be one that gave both parties equal citizenship and equal right of return.

Posted by: frances | Dec 30 2018 19:56 utc | 109

I see Trump eliminated sanctions against Derispaka who is also backed by the Rothschilds.

Pft at 53.

(Idk about the Rs, their influence is over-hyped imho.)

Derispaka was president of En+ and Rusal (aluminium.) Wiki, not stellar for sure:

He has given in to US sanctions. - 3 MSM links: Forbes, FT, WSJ in next post. All make the events sound like ‘normal transactions’… The ‘Barker’ - ex Brit energy Min. - plan is to be implemented.

In effect, En+ will now be under US-uk control. I have read (F press, no idea if correct) that D. will be allowed to nominate to the directorate board of En+ (after becoming a ‘minority’ shareholder ..details complex) only 4 members / 12; 6 must be British or USA citizens, plus the 6 others (incl the 4 mentioned previous) / 12 have to be approved by the US Treasury. (!) The US MSM articles linked don’t mention this.

officialdom, US (does not contradict what I posted above) PDF:

In case anyobdy wondered “what use are sanctions they are just cruel to no purpose” this is a prime example!

Posted by: Noirette | Dec 30 2018 20:01 utc | 110


Thanks for your observations. It's tricky to weed them out from the nonsense you've been embroiled in, but it's always worth reading your comments - even when they're obscured by the nonsense of those people currently attacking you personally. I never read those people but they seem very active lately, as many have noted.

Everyone engaging you with personal challenges - a lazy and morally perverse way to discuss any concept - would have been long ago banned if it had been my site.

Your point about Trump dreaming to settle the Palestinian issue is interesting. I don't think he holds the correct paradigm for the task (the correct paradigm would be that of colonial occupation), but one wonders how high he actually dreams. We shall have to see over time.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 30 2018 20:39 utc | 112

Peter AU 1 @108

No, I call directing "FOAD" at Circe evidence of a nerve being hit.

There are posters here that are overly hopeful about Trump and others that are overly negative. Trump is a known flim-flam man, scepticism is a sensible precaution. Trust in Trump is misplaced, and pressure on Trump (to fulfil his promises) is absent.

There was a view (not expressed so often these days) that voters just voted for Trump to put two-fingers up at the establishment (that is they weren't expecting much really from Trump). If that's all you wanted, then Trump has served his purpose.

You want Trump to deliver then, at the very least, pressure needs to be put on him. Instead, there is just "trust" and "hope", that's bread and butter to a flim-flam man.

I'm not immune, emotionally I hope Trump makes real change, logically, I know I'm being fooled. It's useful to have Circe or Jackrabbit, annoying as they can be, remind me of that.

In my view the only candidate that might make a difference as the next US President is Tulsi Gabbard, instead all we hear is Trump, Trump, Trump, Biden, Trump, Trump, Clinton, Trump, etc.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 20:47 utc | 113

@ ADKC 107

I want to be clear because as I understand it, the Israeli state has always fought against any conception of a one state solution. Are you unaware that a one state might in the beginning not alleviate all the Palestinians grievances, but that over time their increased representation in the knesset will render the apartheid policies of the elite there obsolete?

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 30 2018 20:48 utc | 114

thanks grieved @112... ditto your comments to frances..

Posted by: james | Dec 30 2018 20:49 utc | 115

Frances @109

I am still interpreting you as saying/implying we should trust Trump on the Palestinian issue (or wait and see, which, in effect, amounts to the same thing) and I can see no logical reason to do so. There is no indication that a fair deal is in anyway a prospect for the Palestinians.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 20:52 utc | 116

'm with Circe on Trump - his almost total subservience to Israeli desires. My limited knowledge implies that if you do big construction projects in NYC then you will inevitably end up dealing with some mob dominated construction unions or cement companies. It seems likely that he used money laundered Russian mob money in the 90s to save some of his towers. His reputation says he uses the usual big money ways to screw smaller contractors. The "University" that used his name was a scam. He got his start with the position his father acquired in the NYC real estate business -as they said of H W Bush, "He was born on third base but thinks he hit a triple." A narcissist he does seem to be. The only real acumen he does seem to possess is to hire people who knew how to use bankruptcy law to retain his wealth. He also appears to have hired competent people to raise his children who have turned out moderately well - it is almost as hard to raise children well when one has great wealth as it is with poverty. It is also why he will never get too far away from what the "Deep State" wants. I imagine he would respond as wanted with just a few threats against Ivanka. Every President since has seen that film with Kennedy's head being blown away. On the other hand there does appear to be a real split in the Powers That BE but just different alliances of billionaires quarreling over the spoils.

Posted by: gepay | Dec 30 2018 20:53 utc | 117

NemesisCalling @107

A discriminatory, one state solution is already in place. Are you aware that you are effectively arguing that the US (and the international community) should give it's blessing to an apartheid state and leave the Palestinians, unsupported, to fight against there own genocide?

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 20:58 utc | 118

NemsisCalling @107

It's not true that Israel wanted a two-state solution. The Oslo Accords just pushed responsibility for policing onto the Palestinian authority, an onerous duty that Israel was finding increasing difficulty. In all that time (since the Olso Accords in 1993) there has been no progress on a two state solution (that's over 25 years of no progress). Why, because Israel did not want a two state solution.

Israel have continued to encroach in a big way into Palestinian (notional) state land, such that the Palestinian West Bank is more like popcorn than a contiguous land mass, Gaza has become a prison, and slow genocidal policies have been implemented (undrinkable water, destroying wells dwellings and communal facilities, making daily like unliveable, subjecting a huge number of children to arrest and detainment without the protection of an adult). This is the existing one state solution.

The one state solution that Israel wishes to formalise will be one that entrenches this apartheid solution, will continue to treat Palestinians as second class citizens and will continue implementing slow genocidal policies.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 21:14 utc | 119

congrats circe... you have turned this thread into another 24/7 conversation on israel.. kudos!! that is what one trick ponies do!

Posted by: james | Dec 30 2018 21:23 utc | 120

reply to
"Your point about Trump dreaming to settle the Palestinian issue is interesting. I don't think he holds the correct paradigm for the task (the correct paradigm would be that of colonial occupation), but one wonders how high he actually dreams. We shall have to see over time."
Posted by: Grieved | Dec 30, 2018 3:39:03 PM | 112
Thank you for finding my comments worthwhile, it's high praise coming from you and as for critics; welt stones are necessary to sharpen a knife:)
On your comment above, " high he actually dreams" I think that is exactly the point with him; he wants to be remembered as a 21st century Roosevelt IMO. Only an intelligent,ruthless, hard driven egomaniac can pull off the changes needed to right this ship and I think he might be able to pull it off. True he could be bluffing us all but really, with all his has, why would he bother. Time will tell. Thanks again!

Posted by: frances | Dec 30 2018 21:40 utc | 121

I think it was Lonl@88 who posted on "...the actual meaning and influence of Trump..." (Forgive me if my notes are deficient on that.) Of course, there would be many different interpretations, and are - one being that Trump has always had the public persona of, as in another apt description, a "flim flam man." Indeed he has, and I would guess most Americans would have thought of him as that prior to his electoral campaign.

So, what happened then? Anyone who was paying any attention to election politics at the time would have seen the Clinton machine getting into high gear. And, I am very sorry to say, they would have seen that the spotlight wasn't kind to that lady. The spotlight showed she would be not only more of the same but more of the same in heavy metal gear. I didn't vote for Trump. But the spotlight was on him also (not on my candidate, Jill Stein.) It was a negative spotlight, one that even has kept on shining up to this day. Right up to this day! Sorry, Democrats (and probably a lot of Republicans too, many still on Trump's 'team'.) You have blown it.

I think Trump just needs to stay in there and stay alive and he will be re-elected. I think he is more popular now, as a flim-flam man fighting to stay alive, than he was before. I think he is the US shining hope to overcome and put to rest all that negativity being hurled against him, and I so hope he does. Because anything happens to him, and I believe all bets are off. We just might not be able to take it any longer.

'Cause there's something about a flim-flam man; he gets under your skin in a good way, not just a bad way. He might have been just what the world needed, right at this present time. And I just might vote for him in 2020.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 30 2018 22:13 utc | 122

James @120

There were at least 6 direct references to Israel (and numerous indirect references) before Circe made her post which was about funding of Trump's concern.

I am concerned about the apparent willingness of many posters here to put Trump election prospects and flim-flam above Palestinian interests.

Let's imagine we took the same position with Israel that we take with Syria? We'd be asking the foreign invaders to leave and returning the whole of Israel to ...the Palestinians.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 22:20 utc | 123

By the way, on the side discussion about steel in the World Trade Towers, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a tv program pointing out that those towers were constructed in a new way, with the steel supports located not on the exterior of the building but inside, at the core where the elevators were? In which case airplanes could indeed penetrate as the exterior was lighter cladding. I thought that was what made the whole structures unique in architectural terms. And once the planes had penetrated, would they not then with near full fuel tanks exploding right next to the beams create sufficient heat to melt them downward in a pancake fashion given the additional weight of the floors above already burning? I remember footage from the lowest floor and folk then scrambling in fear to get out. It didn't happen right away, but surely if there was demolition from below somebody would have had a camera on that. They didn't.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 30 2018 22:25 utc | 124


My understanding is Rusal is still under Russian control. Deripaska threatened selling to China or nationalization. He agreed to reduce his holdings to under 50% by transferring shares to a Russian bank under sanctions (VTB) via sale or holding in a trust. Basically cosmetics which “may end up working in his favor, with the U.S. doing an end-around its own sanctions in order not to disrupt the aluminum trade, a market in which Rusal plays a huge role.”

While half of the directors will be UK and US citizens, they will be handpicked with Russian shareholders having the majority say. Representative Lloyd Doggett, D-Texas “said the move to lift sanctions amounted to Mr Trump “sliding another big gift under Vladimir Putin’s Christmas tree.” Saying the plan “appears to be a shell game brokered by a sanctioned Russian bank, VTB Bank, involving one of Putin’s closest buddies, Oleg Deripaska,” Mr Doggett said it “only encourages Putin to pursue his destabilising activities around the world.”

That said, sanctions do work in many cases, at least in the short term , but can have unintended negative consequences over the long term

As for the RS. Multi trillion dollar organization operating under the radar with 300 years of history. Maybe not the top dawg any longer but certainly as influential as Soros

Posted by: Pft | Dec 30 2018 22:34 utc | 125

Noirette @110 @111: Thanks for keeping us posted on Derispaka.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Dec 30 2018 22:41 utc | 126

ADKC on Trump

@106: ... American's will go to the polls to again vote for change and the same fake "progress" process starts again.

@113:... "trust" and "hope", that's bread and butter to a flim-flam man.

Exactly right.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Dec 30 2018 22:43 utc | 127


Let's not. They are two totally different scenarios.

But maybe I'm not seeing your point.

Posted by: juliania | Dec 30 2018 22:46 utc | 128

ADKC on I-P conflict

@104: There is already a one state solution in place; Trump's job is to stuff it down the throats of the Palestinians.

@107: This is no solution, this is no settlement; it is just the continuation of the nightmare.

@119:The one state solution that Israel wishes to formalise will be one that entrenches this apartheid solution

It appears that Israeli's "one state" solution is the ZioNazi's "final solution".

Note: I don't mean to suggest mass murder, though Gaza seems very close to a death camp, as much as that there is really no desire whatsoever on the Israeli side to negotiate anything that we might consider to be fair. What's rumored to be coming from the Trump Administration is a take-it-or-leave-it payoff and, possibly, resettlement.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Dec 30 2018 22:47 utc | 129

ADKC on I-P conflict

@104: There is already a one state solution in place; Trump's job is to stuff it down the throats of the Palestinians.

@107: This is no solution, this is no settlement; it is just the continuation of the nightmare.

@119:The one state solution that Israel wishes to formalise will be one that entrenches this apartheid solution

It appears that Israeli's "one state" solution is the Zio-Na-zi "fin-al sol-ution".

Note: I don't mean to suggest mass murder, though Ga-za is like a death camp, but that the Israeli side appears to be completely uninterested in any solution that is fair in any sense.

What's rumored to be coming from the Trump Administration is a take-it-or-leave-it payoff to the Palestinians that might include resettlement. IMO, the hope is that the remaining Palestinian community will not have the wherewithal to fight back. And any opposition is defeated politically with: "you should've taken the offer".

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Dec 30 2018 22:55 utc | 130

Juliana @122

I think it is likely that Trump will win the next election, and I'd rather Trump win than Biden or Clinton. But I'd much rather see Tulsi Gabbard as President.

But if Americans are going to vote for Trump shouldn't they at least make some demands and hold him to account, not just buy the snake oil.

You say that if something happened to Trump, Americans "might not be able to take it anymore". That, of course, isn't true Americans collectively are too divided and feeble. They already watched a President get assassinated on TV. They were upset for awhile, but they just went along with the Warren Commission whitewash. They then watched his brother, effectively the next President, also get assassinated and they accepted that. If that wasn't rubbing the collective face of American citizens in the shit, I don't know what is. Now Americans barely give the Kennedy's a passing thought.

Trump knows that if something happens to him, people will be a bit upset, but they will just accept it and move on.

You don't seriously expect Trump to put his life on the line for people who can't collectively even ensure justice for their assassinated leaders?

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 23:08 utc | 131

reply to
"thanks grieved @112... ditto your comments to frances..
Posted by: james | Dec 30, 2018 3:49:39 PM | 115
Thank you James, much appreciated!

Posted by: frances | Dec 30 2018 23:11 utc | 132

juliania 124
Both the inner and outer columns were part of the support structure. The webbing trusses supporting the concrete floors also tied the inner and outer columns together, preventing them from bowing or folding. Horizontal beams were welded between the outer columns to give it strength against side loads - wind, earthquake ect.
Steel does not have to melt or become red to weaken. A visual reference to temperature in steel is - at 600 degrees C, the steel appears dull red when in the shade. A high tensile steel can lose a great deal of its strength at lower temperatures depending also on what temperature it was originally tempered at.
From what I could make of the design, its novelty was in the high tensile, very light weight, all steel (apart from the non load bearing concrete floor slabs) design, and the completely open floor space design that allowed partitioning walls to be placed anywhere, or changed at anytime on each floor.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 30 2018 23:12 utc | 133

Juliana @124

Palestine belonged to Pakestinians. Then jewish settlers/invaders used guns and threats to take their land from them. To deny that is to even deny Palestinians their history and right to exist as a people.

In Syria foreign invaders sought to take over Syria and also used guns.

The similarities are obvious.

Things won't return to 1946 but to legitimise an apartheid state just so Trump can look good is contemptible. Unlike Americans, Palestinians will fight because the alternative for them is a slow death.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 23:19 utc | 134

@122 & 124 juliania

You may just be channeling the main sentiment of the US people...even if they don't know it yet, when the memes start flying and elections draw closer, it can well polarize along those lines. It's a brilliant scenario you illustrate. I find it very plausible.

As for steel, you have it backwards, the steel is on the outside. Trump in one of those YouTube interviews from 2001 posted here recently knew all about it. He was in the basement of the Trade Center after it survived the earlier attempt in the late 1990's - his engineer was working on the forensic effort and gave him a tour. I'm quite certain that someone like Trump and all big developers would take a keen interest in the structural innovations of the Towers, because they were heralded. These things make a difference to insurance and profit and loss, not to mention that they're compelling subjects in their own right.

Anyway, Trump's point was how all that steel was on the outside, making for the absolute strongest design for a building. His point at the time was that he thought the planes also had bombs of some kind. What he has learned since, and what conclusions he has come to in his own mind, we don't know. For an apparently compulsive blabber, he seems to know how to keep his silence on things too.

Posted by: Grieved | Dec 30 2018 23:19 utc | 135

@123 adkc.. i didn't say he started it.. this is circes 24/7 hobby horse... these MAGA threads are very predictable..

Posted by: james | Dec 30 2018 23:28 utc | 136

Juliana @124

The only thing you really need to know about 9/11 is that it is another tragedy that the American people collectively failed to ensure was properly investigated. The 9/11 Commission was a whitewash that the American people accepted. In a few more more years it will all be forgotten.

You can be sure that Trump won't get to the bottom of it.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 23:30 utc | 137

Grieved @143

"What he has learned since, and what conclusions he has come to in his own mind, we don't know. For an apparently compulsive blabber, he seems to know how to keep his silence on things too."

Yes, an omnipotent and wise leader! For Christ's sake this is Trump we are talking about!!!!

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 30 2018 23:38 utc | 138

Interesting information on Trumps engineer being in on the forensic investigation of the earlier bombing.

Re the support columns - they were both around the outside, and also around the lifts at the center leaving all the floor space between the lifts and the outer walls open - no load bearing internal walls.

What has interested me mostly is that the column spec's for the floors that took the impacts are simply not available.
What is the reason for this, is it "because they were heralded" ... would the towers have been considered a US icon, a marvel of US engineering to show the world. Possibly a bit embarrassing if it were shown to be a bit flimsy or some cost cutting took place.
Just possibilities I have been tossing around for some time.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 30 2018 23:48 utc | 139

reply to
Posted by: juliania | Dec 30, 2018 5:25:52 PM | 124
Could I recommend to you,on their site they have about 6-7,000 engineers who have given their opinion on the fall of the towers, I think you will find their observations on the towers structure worthwhile.

Posted by: frances | Dec 30 2018 23:51 utc | 140

Getting hard to find post without the word TRUMP in it.

Posted by: arby | Dec 31 2018 0:04 utc | 141

@juliania 124

Here's a link to the demolition of WTC building 7 late in the afternoon of 9/11 2001.

The official 9/11 Commission cover-up of 9/11 even covered up the very fact of WTC 7's 'collapse' later that afternoon, but for many people who have simply more or less accepted the official story on 9/11, the video of this obvious demolition event on 9/11 is the shocker that initiates an attempt to actually understand what happened.

Posted by: Robert Snefjella | Dec 31 2018 0:12 utc | 142

Jackrabbit @129

Yes, I agree. I can't believe the relative lack of concern about the Palestinian's plight on this thread and the willingness to sacrifice them so Trump can look good is shocking.

The Palestinians are really on their own. People don't understand or accept how oppressed the Palestinians are.

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 31 2018 1:27 utc | 143

Fast Freddy @ 96

If he were an ignorant, incurious buffoon (like Dubya Bush, perhaps), he may have lived more like a playboy, spending his money on hookers and blow.

Uhm, srsly? With exception of his not doing blow (that was Bush's department) Trump has lived like a Playboy including doing conspicuous time with Hef at the Playboy mansion over the years. Lol. There is also a porn star (true, not a hooker) and and a playmate (ditto) we already know he spent considerable money on both to keep hush during the 2016 campaign. And these two are probably the tip of the iceberg and may be the only two we discover the dirt on since the payments [allegedly] interfered with the election.

The National Enquirer pleaded guilty and has turned state's evidence for their role in the hush money schemes and Trump's controller has also been turned so more, much more tales of corruption may soon fall out.

Those swallowing Trump's line that there was no Russian collusion in the election are allowing themselves to be duped I'm afraid. The election is a sideshow. The real collusion action is the extent and legal nature of the Russian and Deutschebank investments in Trump which occurred years before Trump became a candidate and therefore aren't necessarily related to the election.

These prior dealings have been shielded by the GOP House investigation but the Democrats will go right after them. Bigly. It is incomprehensible to me knowing what we've learned about Trump's business methods, the extensive use of Russian (and other global elites) to funnel money through tax havens and into NY real estate for shall we say, cleaning purposes, that we will not find out a lot more about the Donald's business dealings vis a vis "the law".

It boggles the mind that Trump could even conceive of putting himself so out there in terms of potential exposure that he would ever run for higher office. I guess he is that stupid as most everyone who has been close to him in the WH now admits he is. See John Kelly today. Also see the Matt Taibbi article linked by b. Ironically, Gary Cohn seems to be one of the ex-Trump WH appointees involved neck deep in that caper. Birds of a feather.

There will be more. Much more. Stay tuned. I'm thinking there is a very good chnace Trump will eventually resign and have Pence pardon him (ala Nixon-Ford) before 2020 even seriously gets under way.

Posted by: donkeytale | Dec 31 2018 2:14 utc | 144

Do you have a link to the 6-7000 engineers. Reading through the list at the site, very very few engineers signed up to and and the couple that I found did not state what branch of engineering they specialized in.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31 2018 3:39 utc | 145

@142 akdc

That is a silly comment and you should rethink it. I have never come to MoA and thought that most here didn't grieve for the Palestinian plight.

But just like the Yemeni struggle currently, their story is queued down a few spots, so please forgive for focusing in on powderkegs because often that is what we are fed in the media and so demand commentary on these current events.

In the mean time, up the page you continually put forth that there is already a one state on Palestine.

I suppose that is true but only if you exclude the 1/3 people that are denied voting rights there and live in an apartheid state.

So don't rage that people are dumb for supporting a one state solution that actaully includes a third of the population there under its umbrella and would drastically alter the knesset to the detriment of the zionists.

Do you want us to bomb Israel? Don't you know that the only way to peace is for big boys to come to the table?

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 31 2018 4:57 utc | 146

Posted by: juliania | Dec 30, 2018 5:25:52 PM | 124
(..correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a tv program pointing out that those towers were constructed in a new way,?)

They were constructed in a (ingeniously) new way as described by Peter AU in the first par of #132. They were also designed to survive a low-speed impact from a large, slow-moving aircraft similar to the incident survived by the Empire State building decades earlier.

The NIST report explains lucidly how and why WTC didn't survive the impact from large aircraft traveling at high speed. And although edu-phobic Trufers rejected NIST's findings, the vast majority of Structural Engineers, worldwide, were satisfied with NIST's explanations.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Dec 31 2018 5:25 utc | 147

reply to 144
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 30, 2018 10:39:54 PM |
Certainly, here are several links you may find helpful:

Posted by: frances | Dec 31 2018 5:55 utc | 148

frances 147
Which link is to the engineers.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31 2018 6:02 utc | 149

reply to 144
Peter, this is another I found helpful

Posted by: frances | Dec 31 2018 6:03 utc | 150

So, james has turned on me already, and I'm being blamed for a discussion happening in my absence when it's been hours I'm not around. Why am I not surprised? I see ADKC, who regardless not always my favorite commenter, has been bravely carrying the burden of the moral argument on the plight of the Palestinians under a Trump ramrod deal with jackrabbit making some equally good points while the rest have no problem throwing Palestinians who have suffered decades of Zionist abuse, with successive generations being born into oppression, under the bus for a slime ball like Trump. Congratulations on hitting a new low! Who and what won't you sell out for Trump?

ADKC, I read that Bolton believes the best plan is for Israel to keep all the land it stole and for the Palestinians to be assimilated under the control of Egypt in the case of Gaza, and Jordan in the case of Palestinians living on what's left of the West Bank totality that was theirs and in essence doing away with Palestine and Palestinians who would become Egyptians and Jordanians. The refugees, including those in Gaza who belong to Israel proper would be denied right of return. So in essence Palestinians would be either part of one-state Apartheid that Trump would legitimize, or be disappeared from history altogether and this after decades of holding firm against the most brutal, longest running occupation in modern history.

Yes Virginia, there are criminals still in the White House. What does Trump have in common with the IDF? They're both the most moral in their class.

nc- pressing media powderkegs? Is that the discussion? And here I thought we were discussing the swamp Trump brought with him. Now don't get your knickers in a's about we start with FIRING Trump!

She's a long shot with Dems, but I'm game on Tulsi as a replacement just as long as she loses touch with the casino mogul that finances illegal settlements in the West Bank. I still wish Kucinich returned!

Posted by: Circe | Dec 31 2018 6:12 utc | 151

frances 149

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31 2018 6:22 utc | 152

@Pft | Dec 29, 2018 4:56:34 PM | 15

People fail to understand the goal of these wars today. Its not winning so much as creating chaos among the local populations over long periods

The U.S.'s withdrawal means the terrorists will not be protected from the air, as they used to be, and that means Syria's army will devastate them.

This reduces population, prevents economic growth and reduces living standards and hence resource consumption

If the terrorists should somehow survive the Syrian army and make the Zionists' wet dream happen (that of vast and bloody mayhem), that means ISIS and ilk would be hated by the people. Hence Obama's favorite terrorists wouldn't be guerrillas, hiding in the population, as the people would be outing them. Without wide popular support, the terrorists would lose -- very quickly -- and the chaos would end fast. (Although there would probably be some continuing and isolated atrocities of the sort that Zionists and terrorists love.)

Posted by: Cyril | Dec 31 2018 7:00 utc | 153

Peter AU:

Here's a pageful of engineers and architects at, including some down under.

This quote is pretty compelling:

Frank Wolstencroft

Ph.D. Industrial Metallurgy

Mount Kisco NY, US

Research in metal deformation (and in particular machining) Industrial experience in the aerospace industry.

There are too many unanswered questions about 9/11 in order to believe the official version of events. A more thorough investigation is needed to arrive at a more accurate assessment. There is not enough energy contained in jet fuel to explain the total collapse and destruction of the central core. The molten steel found in the basements of the towers needs to be explained scientifically. The collapse of WTC 7 is also very suspicious.

The link came from Frances above. You might have just tried to search for "engineers for 911" yourself.

Posted by: jonku | Dec 31 2018 8:03 utc | 154

jonku 153'

Yes I have been to the sight that lists numerous artists and one or two engineers of unspecified specialities. One that did list his line was fire insulation. Artistes draw a pretty picture. Engineers that specialise in highrise buildings the have construct a building that resembles the pretty picture as closely as possible.

Frances stated 6-7000 engineers. I don't think that is bullshit but frances may have mistakenly exaggerated the number by orders of many magnitudes.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31 2018 8:18 utc | 155

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31, 2018 3:18:30 AM

I find:

More than 3,000 architects and engineers have signed our petition.

Architects & Engineers For 911 Truth.

Posted by: dus7 | Dec 31 2018 8:46 utc | 156

Looking through it which I have done before, I know lots of artists have signed. Diligently go through the entire list and list the actual engineers and also what line of engineering they work in.
I thought francs may have a link to to the 6-7000 engineers. That is a page at truth dot org that I have not found.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31 2018 9:16 utc | 157

well, it didn't take long for trump to bow.

Posted by: alain | Dec 31 2018 10:10 utc | 158

psychohistorian@37 pointed out that Trump appears to be maneuvering for a "Great Debt Resolution", which does seem to be the case.

Peter AU 1@41 points out that "Trump is a business man in the realestate buying developing and selling business"

I greatly value psychohistorian's analysis (one of the reasons I come here), but I think he might be overlooking something. The "Great Debt Resolution" is not going to benefit the "the folks that own global private finance". On the contrary, it will devastate the portfolios of those whose wealth is paper (or data in a computer, same thing). Capitalists with wealth composed of tangible assets, casinos and factories say, would on the other hand greatly benefit from clearing out the debt that is clogging the global economy's arteries.

The global business oligarchy is NOT a monolithic entity. Within that oligarchy there are competing factions with differing interests, though of course they all share an interest in keeping the world working within a capitalist paradigm. The finance oligarchs wanted Clinton in 2016 to protect the petrodollar at all costs. They had rigged the election to accomplish this, and Trump was certainly part of their plans to get Clinton elected. He was intended to be the stick to drive the donkeys to the polls. We know that Trump was not intended to win, despite what some here believe, simply from the shocked and apoplectic reactions on that fateful November morn of those who were deeply and conspicuously involved in the election rigging. This shocked apoplexy has EVERYTHING to do with the past two years of hysteria in the corporate mass media as well as the crash program to crack down on social media (the oligarchy thought they had more time to tame social media). These trends would not have developed as they have had the premeditated plot to install Clinton succeeded.

This is not to say that Trump is a hero of the people. On the contrary, he is obviously an oligarch himself. The plans of some in the oligarchy can fail while the oligarchy overall remains in control. The post by karlof1@47 illustrates this internal conflict within the oligarchy: Stabilize the imperial core or the periphery; the oligarchy lacks the resources to do both at the same time. Clinton was clearly representing the "Damn the costs and full speed ahead with the empire-building!" camp, while Trump is among the domestic classical capitalists who want their tangible capital to be profitable again. This isn't contradictory beyond exposing the well-known contradictions of capitalism itself.

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 31 2018 12:15 utc | 159

Circe @ 150

I read James's dishonest little attack on you for what it is: nothing. Those irritating little house flies buzzing around end up dead on the sill soon enough whether you bother taking time to swat them or not.

To his credit, james does seem to be expert on Canadian jazz. More music and less thread policing becomes you, sir. Thanks

Posted by: donkeytale | Dec 31 2018 12:22 utc | 160

McGruff @ 158

Very insightful comments. This part is very true and also why many through basic ignorance (I guess) commonly mistake international business competition for "a new cold war":

The global business oligarchy is NOT a monolithic entity. Within that oligarchy there are competing factions with differing interests, though of course they all share an interest in keeping the world working within a capitalist paradigm.

I also agree with you on the need for a great debt writedown but unfortunately this will never happen voluntarily ---nor will Trump push for it to happen (yet another of the pipe dreams people believe about the orange con man)--- for the same reason debt forgiveness didn't happen during 2008 crash.

Serviceable debt props up the balance sheets of financial institutions. Writing down debt means recognising a loss and reduction of the debt holder's net asset value.

Any massive debt write off would precipitate a financial (and stock market) meltdown throughout the globalised world. In 2008 big banks were made to gobble up small banks and their bad debt while governments bailed out the financial system (too big to fail) to keep as much of the debt serviceable as possible.

OTOH, Trump these days appears to be much less in the real estate business than in the money laundering business. In recent years his companies have used inordinately large amounts of cash which is highly unusual (as well as suspicious) in acquiring commercial real estate properties.

Trump's main legal issues will almost certainly result from his ties to foreign money flowing through his business ventures ever since years ago when his companies' multiple bankruptcies rendered them credit worthless (except to Deutsche Bank, ironically the infamous money laundering bank of choice for Russian billionaires).

The special counsel is not on a fishing expedition. He knows exactly what he’s looking for. The sloppiness and ineptitude of the Trump coterie — which make Nixon’s Watergate conspirators seem like Oceans 11 — virtually ensure that some evidence of wrongdoing is there. The problem is that many powerful and ruthless people are involved in different parts of Russia’s money-laundering scheme. Overcoming the pushback from those quarters may prove the most challenging part of Mueller’s job.

And this:

"In terms of high-end product influx into the US, Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets," Trump Jr. said during a conference in New York in 2008.

Posted by: donkeytale | Dec 31 2018 13:58 utc | 161

An actual professor of structural engineering from the University of Alaska in Fairbanks has performed an in-depth, multi-year investigation of WTC7 collapse and came to the conclusion that the NIST WTC7 report was wrong: "WTC 7 Did Not Collapse from Fire" - Dr. Leroy Hulsey, UAF, Sept. 6, 2017 (video). If you don't feel like watching the full 1.5-hour talk, please at least watch a 3-minute segment from 38:45 to 41:35; perhaps it will pique your interest enough to watch more.

Posted by: S | Dec 31 2018 15:18 utc | 162

As an aside concerning the urban redevelopment/asbestos remediation drama at the World Trade Center site, would readers consider laboriously placed demolition charges to be the same as or different from "bombs"? As well, would demolition by such "bombs" and being struck by aircraft necessarily be mutually exclusive? What is to prevent both from having been arranged?

Perhaps in 2001 it was difficult to imagine the Israelis, Saudis, and criminal elements within the US establishment collaborating on something so horrific, but doesn't what we now know about these actors on the world stage make it somewhat more conceivable? You know, the whole Khashoggi slice-and-dice thing, the Israelis hiding their bombers behind airliners in the hopes of an accidental shoot-down by the Syrians, and the now well established fact that practically everything fed to the US public about the incident and subsequent wars by the government and mass media was deliberate misdirection where it wasn't outright lies?

Anyway, even if the entire WTC site was leveled just by being struck by two airplanes, we now know that wahhabeast terrorist gangs are policy tools used by Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the CIA from their actions in Syria. Who would be so foolish as to assume that only started in 2011? And does it materially change the implications if it was "bombs"+planes or just planes?

Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 31 2018 15:59 utc | 163

donkey 160

*More music and less thread policing becomes you, sir. Thanks*

How about you stop spewing donkey dungs all over the place. ?

Posted by: denk | Dec 31 2018 16:06 utc | 164

denk @ 164


Posted by: donkeytale | Dec 31 2018 16:41 utc | 165

donkey 165
*China just as bad as fukus*

Since ww2

China 1 foreign base , fukus 300

China 0 war, fukus 200

China 0 coups, fukus 50

The joke is on you !

Posted by: denk | Dec 31 2018 17:07 utc | 166

NemisesCalling @145

Anyone who knows anything about what is happening knows that the whole point of Trump's "deal" for the Palestinians is about imposing a one state solution which enshrines the Palestinians forever as 2nd class citizens. You are fine with that, obviously, but don't pose as a if you're doing the Palestinians a favour when you are clearly enthusiastic to collude in their oppression.

No one would object to a one state solution where the Palestinians have equal rights but that is not what is on offer. Circe @140 gives a good overview of what is is is store for the Palestinians which I'll excerpt:

"Bolton believes the best plan is for Israel to keep all the land it stole and for the Palestinians to be assimilated under the control of Egypt in the case of Gaza, and Jordan in the case of Palestinians living on what's left of the West Bank totality that was theirs and in essence doing away with Palestine and Palestinians who would become Egyptians and Jordanians. The refugees, including those in Gaza who belong to Israel proper would be denied right of return. So in essence Palestinians would be either part of one-state Apartheid that Trump would legitimize, or be disappeared from history altogether and this after decades of holding firm against the most brutal, longest running occupation in modern history."

It is beyond contempt to impose this on the Palestinians and the anti-thesis of everything that "Moon of Alabama" stands for. And what is it all for? Just so Trump can parade a fake deal as an achievement.

Should such a deal be imposed there will very likely be an uprising by the Palestinians that will be far larger and more serious than previous Intifadas. The inevitable crackdown by Israel will also likely be far more severe. It is likely that the Palestinians will be crushed but the deaths will likely be immense and the issue will remain unresolved and uprisings will recur.

There may be some sly brokers who believe that they can coerce the Palestinian leadership into accepting such a deal, but any leadership agreeing to such a deal will be immediately de-legitimised and will not be able to carry the Palestinian people.

This is the "solution" that you are happy with, just so Trump can get a photo opp!

Posted by: ADKC | Dec 31 2018 17:29 utc | 167

reply to Peter AU 1
Hi Peter,
I just had a chance to check in. Thank you to everyone who assisted Peter in my absence, very much appreciated!
BTW, I don't understand your reference to "artists" were your referring to the architects?

This is the post where I got the the 6,000 number, my unintended error, please accept my apologies:
6000 Reference:
"Posted byu/petereddit6635
1 year ago
3000 architects and engineers. Each with, say 6000 pro hours of job XP. 3,000 x 6,000 total 18 million hrs of pro XP in their field. They all say 9/11 staged. Point: If you don't trust individual researchers then trust them."

video link:
FaceBook page:

Posted by: frances | Dec 31 2018 18:21 utc | 168

reply to:159
"...Trump is among the domestic classical capitalists who want their tangible capital to be profitable again. This isn't contradictory beyond exposing the well-known contradictions of capitalism itself."
Posted by: William Gruff | Dec 31, 2018 7:15:20 AM | 159
Really got a lot from your post, particularly the last observation in quotes above, thank you.

Posted by: frances | Dec 31 2018 18:30 utc | 169

denk @ 166

Lol. The joke's on me. Awesome. Happy New Year.

Posted by: donkeytale | Dec 31 2018 18:47 utc | 170

spudski @96 - momentum may well be the product of mass times velocity squared but the World Trade Centre was engineered to withstand the impact of an airliner, which means it possessed the strength with a safety factor of at least 7 times the strength required to withstand this impact.

Posted by: Mischi | Dec 31 2018 19:55 utc | 171

that wasn't an attack.. that was stating it like it is... read circes response - more on guess what????? might it be zionism, or palestine, or how bad trump is??? you can role them into one for a special circe roll!

as for the donkey dung posts... the false equivalency posts really highlight a different type of sophistication that most posters at moa are smart enough to ignore, myself excluded!

Posted by: james | Dec 31 2018 20:00 utc | 172

Mischi @ 171

Momentum is mass times velocity and is conserved in collisions as I recall. In grade eleven physics it gave us a way to calculate how two bodies would move after a collision. Kinetic energy (as opposed to e.g., potential energy) is 0.5 x velocity squared times mass. The kinetic energy is what does the damage when a moving mass collides with something else (e.g., a wall, a body, whatever. So if two bullets have the same mass, but one is travelling at twice the velocity of the other, the faster bullet has four times the kinetic energy (in Joules or equivalently Watt-seconds) of the slower bullet. I am relying on my memory of Grade 11 physics from 1966 here - at my age, my memory is not what it was, but I believe that what I've stated here is correct.

Posted by: spudski | Dec 31 2018 20:30 utc | 173

PS Mischi, I take no issue with the rest of your post.

Posted by: spudski | Dec 31 2018 20:31 utc | 174

@ AKDC 167

With the success of Syria, I would say most here at MoA can see the writing on the wall and that this is indeed a turning point for Israel's clout in the MENA.

It is without a doubt that the Palestinians should reject any unfair offer of being handed over to Egypt and so they will with the support of the majority of the world.

It is in their best interest to suffer what they must until they are granted fair representation in the Knesset. And then, it is countdown termination to the zionist state.

Any other ideas?

Your posts remind me of Paul's ad nauseum rants against Ru for playing the long game (which has brought the peaceful success of victory in Syria).

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Dec 31 2018 21:21 utc | 175

@ frances

Architects are artists. It is the engine that has the final say on what can and what cannot be built with the technology of the day. There is also many lines within civil engineering, each a specialty.
There is plenty to be suspicious about, but with their morman scientist who previously found scientific evidence that Jesus had been to America is just a scam.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31 2018 21:35 utc | 176

@ spudski
You have a good memory. I have to look up equations every time I need to use them. Though from flying, I always remember doubling the speed equals four times the drag.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31 2018 21:38 utc | 177

@ Peter AU 1

I always had a better memory for formulae, identities, and constants, etc., i.e., things that always hold - the investment seemed worth it. We did so many (Newtonian) physics problems in high school that I still remember a lot we learned. (However, my class got surprised in 2nd year electrical engineering when we found out you can't use F=ma for very high velocities as the mass is not constant - need calculus (product rule for derivatives) for those cases, since it's really F = d(mv)/dt)

Posted by: spudski | Dec 31 2018 22:25 utc | 178

spudski, as a mechanical engineer, I can assure you that the impact force of an aircraft hitting the WT Towers at maximum speed should have not had any effect on the structure as it was designed to a safety factor of 7 (i.e. it is 7 times stronger than the force imparted by such a collision).

Posted by: Mischi | Dec 31 2018 22:26 utc | 179

PS To tie it into what we were talking about, the exact equation states that "force is equal to the time rate of change of momentum." Happy New Year but for Oz, I guess it's already there.

Posted by: spudski | Dec 31 2018 22:27 utc | 180

@ 179 Mischi

I took no quarrel with your structural expertise, indeed I stated as much @174: my only point was that to calculate momentum you don't square velocity, that is all.

Posted by: spudski | Dec 31 2018 22:31 utc | 181

Mischi 179
Without the specs for columns at the levels the plane hit, nothing is certain. The engineer that did the initial assessment for the official report did not have these specs. Off memory, I think he had the specs for the top and base of the columns, but not the specs for the actual levels that took the impact. It makes me wonder why these specs are not publicly available (it was about two years ago I searched for them). Being engineers to withstand the impact of large passenger jets may well be no more than a sales pitch.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Dec 31 2018 22:42 utc | 182

When I was looking into this several years ago, I was more interested in the subsequent collapse rather than the plane strike.

A couple of pictures of the plane strike area that apear to be of the same building

The buildings were constructed from prefab panels

In some videos I have seen of the collapse, these prefab panels can be seen breaking out and coming down in sheets. The bolted top and bottom connections being by far the weakest point in the columns.

In the photos of the plane strike area the staggered joints of the prefab panels are seen in three columns per step. In the second close up photo one set of columns can be seen where the connecting bolts have been sheared at the base of the panel and the columns bent back.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Jan 1 2019 0:12 utc | 183

donkeytail 170

*This is imperialism. No difference. You think there is a moral difference. Lol. C'mon man. Show me the moral difference bet China and fukus, don't tell me*

I just show you three times.
You'r a gawd damned liar.

Posted by: denk | Jan 1 2019 16:07 utc | 184

NemesisCalling @175

"It is in their [the Palestinians] best interest to suffer what they must until they are granted fair representation in the Knesset. And then, it is countdown termination to the zionist state."

No, the One State apartheid solution (which is all that is on offer and what is intended to be imposed on the Palestinians) will be the beginning of a major conflict and it will end with the genocide of the Palestinians. The deal is only about formalising the dispossession of Palestinians and the eradication of Palestinian identity.

You know it is a major betrayal of the Palestinians, your position is just a rationalisation so you can look at yourself in the mirror in the mornings, you just don't what to think about the Palestinians anymore, that's why you chose to end your post with an insult.

Posted by: ADKC | Jan 1 2019 23:46 utc | 185

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