Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
November 05, 2018

This NYT Cartoon Helps Trump To Win

The New York Times cartoonist claims that:

  • Protecting U.S. borders from illegal entry by foreigners is not a valid mission for the U.S. military.
  • Illegally invading and destroying countries in the Middle East, to the benefit of the Zionist entity, is a valid mission.

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It is highly doubtful that U.S. voters agree with that take. Most of them seem to believe in the "Defense" moniker of the War Department.

Cartoons like the above can only help Trump win the midterm elections. One wonders why the NYT is willingly playing into his hands with this.

Posted by b on November 5, 2018 at 07:44 AM | Permalink

Comments
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Here is an interesting look at how three evangelical Christian-based groups are attempting to sway the 2018 election:

https://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2018/11/americas-evangelicals-and-2018-midterm.html

It would seem that the Christian right is perfectly willing to vote for a candidate that their church leadership would normally regard as morally flawed.

Posted by: Sally Snyder | Nov 5, 2018 8:06:30 AM | 1

It's not really possible to excuse the pretense that a band of beggars who plan to ask for asylum constitute an invasion. Brown skin is not a military assault. The kind of people who believe these things also believe that the only objection to invading middle eastern countries is that they aren't paying enough protection money to their US saviors. And even they are apt to approve the killing of Muslims. As for the Zionist entity, Christian Zionism highly approves Jews with their own country, leaving America to Christians.

If turnout is high enough, contra the OP, Trump's unpopularity will lose the House and some Senate seats. The thing is, you can't vote against someone. Turnout will depend on whether they want to vote Democratic...the refusal of the Democrats to campaign against Trump on his unpopular policies which they share may save Trump yet. But it is slandering the people of the US to say the majority actually like Trump and his policies.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 5, 2018 8:14:59 AM | 2

B:

Crap, have you stepped in it.

US troops are NOT to be used for domestic law enforcement.

And the USA is not being invaded. You’ve aligned yourself with rightwing extremists in the USA–many akin to the guy who killed 11 Jews in Pittsburgh. (And yes, he specifically used the word “invaders” in his rants.)


Yep B, you've managed a neo-Nazi response to a cartoon which takes the USA to task for on going wars in the Mid-East. And no "neo-Nazi" is not an overstatement.


Posted by: Jay | Nov 5, 2018 8:47:15 AM | 3

B:

Crap, have you stepped in it.

US troops are NOT to be used for domestic law enforcement.

And the USA is not being invaded. You’ve aligned yourself with rightwing extremists in the USA–many akin to the guy who killed 11 Jews in Pittsburgh. (And yes, he specifically used the word “invaders” in his rants.)


Yep B, you've managed a neo-Nazi response to a cartoon which takes the USA to task for on going wars in the Mid-East. And no "neo-Nazi" is not an overstatement.


Posted by: Jay | Nov 5, 2018 8:47:29 AM | 4

Well imo the average person who watched these migrants bloodying the Mexican police and military would definitely think these folks must be stopped. Of course, it isn't going to end like that as the caravan will split and most will end up sneaking across the border here in Cali or Arizona, as before. The fear of the cartels will ensure that.

I they really wanted to try to make real political points, they would have timed their departure to arrive in force on or before election day. Then bloody images across the tv might sway some voters.

Personally I am looking forward to the 82nd Airborne kicking some ass and taking names. I'm a deplorable and proud of it and I believe that this nation needs to make it crystal clear that the borders mean something.

Posted by: morongobill | Nov 5, 2018 8:48:58 AM | 5

Ban Jay.

Posted by: erik | Nov 5, 2018 9:00:19 AM | 6

@stj (2) I must ask if English is your native language?
Does a beggar force entry to your house, or is it more acceptable to sneak in?
And the trash talk goes on and on, I withdraw the language question; your (mis)usage is deliberate.
If you wish to castigate, how about US overturning elections (Honduras) in Central America?
Trump is only a symptom.
Bill

Posted by: William Adams | Nov 5, 2018 9:06:45 AM | 7

IMO b is right. The image works for Trump, not against, on two issues; the border and the ME.
Border
Yes the US Constitution prevents US Troops being used within the country for military purpose. But the troops are only providing support at the Border.
The reality is the people on the march to the US border all refused an offer from Mexico to settle in two southern (Mexican) states and receive jobs, free housing, free food, free education and free healthcare. So much for the PR story of this group as economic immigrants and sanctuary seekers.They are seen as being in search of the Free Lunch.
These people are being paid (not sure how much) from what I have read and the march is to create a story of poor souls prevented (by Trump) from obtaining the supposed American dream.
For voters in the US southwest especially this group is seen as a bunch of scroungers and Trump as the guy who will keep them out.
the ME
I am not aware of anyone who thinks the US belongs in the ME. Yes, Israel is all for it, but in the US no one wants troops there. We have lost country after country after country and some military head just said that after 17 years we are not "winning" in Afghanistan. These wars are a financial scam in the eyes of many and are for Israel's benefit in the eyes of many others. I doubt if any troops in recent years have signed up to fight in the ME so that statement itself is one the NYT will choke on.
But it is the Times, and they play to their now somewhat limited audience who must be told that the lies they believe are true.
If Trump paid for this cartoon, he could probably not be more pleased.

Posted by: frances | Nov 5, 2018 9:07:22 AM | 8

"It's not really possible to excuse the pretense that a band of beggars who plan to ask for asylum constitute an invasion."

I suppose that is what Assad and the Syrian government thought when the CIA death squads started trickling into their country under the pretense that they were refugees from the violence in Libya.

The CIA built lots of death squads in Latin America.

While most of the the "band of beggars" are harmless useful idiots recruited for the optics, there is a very real possibility that the CIA's death squads from Honduras and possibly Mexico (have to get out now that AMLO is cracking down) are mingling amongst them. Why? Page borrowed from the textbook CIA/State Department manual on regime change:

1) Bring protesters into conflict with authorities.
2) Death squads embedded among the protesters kill both protesters and law enforcement officers.
3) Riots ensue.
5) Complicit corporate mass media winds up the echo chamber forcing the meme that the violence was the authorities' fault.
6) Profit!

Anywho, it is tough to take serious any accusations of slander against a population that has been heavily brainwashed since birth. As with a pair of bluejeans that have been washed several times per day since they were manufactured, over-laundered minds get limp, floppy and full of holes. Americans' minds are so frayed from daily reprogramming that they cannot remember what they believed yesterday, much less why they would have believed it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 5, 2018 9:08:09 AM | 9

@J. 3, 4.

The possee commitatus law which prohibited federal troops from engaging in domestic law enforcement has been repealed.

Also, you are aware that Israel is a rogue state in that it does not have a constitution, it has never defined its borders, it has repeatedly attacked its neighbors, it is an apartheid state, it has 200-400 illegal nuclear warheads, it engages in mass punishment of 6 million Arabs the are the dominant peoples of Palestine, and it has pulled strings to lure the US into wars with Iraq, Syria, Lybia, and Iran.

For these reasons it is perfectly reasonable and accurate and truthful to label such a rogue state a ‘Zionist regime.’

(Now you are informed. Now you should apologize to b.)

Posted by: A. Person | Nov 5, 2018 9:16:48 AM | 10

One wonders why the NYT is willingly playing into his hands with this.

Because the NYT (and mainstream media in general) have been such psychopathic warmongers for so long that by now they're really incapable of understanding that there could be any alternative idea or action. In many states they'd meet the legal definition of insanity.

Of course Trump is just as insane. He merely wants to do both/and rather than either/or, as the NYT would have it.

Posted by: Russ | Nov 5, 2018 9:30:28 AM | 11

Given that the only characters with speaking parts in the cartoon are hi-profile non-combatant pro-"Israel" warmongers masquerading as brain-washed grunts, the message it sends is so mixed that it means whatever the consumer wants it to mean.
An attempt at reverse psychology?

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Nov 5, 2018 9:32:17 AM | 12

Posted by: morongobill | Nov 5, 2018 8:48:58 AM | 5
"I'm a deplorable and proud of it and I believe that this nation needs to make it crystal clear that the borders mean something."

I don't reckon native americans would agree, particularly since most of those arriving are indigenous to america. amerika the abortion, has never considered the property rights, cultures or ethos of other humans anywhere on this old rock. Not in the ME, Asia or more recently Africa, much less those concerns as they relate to native americans be they those indigenous to the area that comprises amerika or those who are indigenous to other portions of the american continents, so I reckon that using this nonsense now to justify racism is just hypocritical, That it is about as low as it is possible to go. That is compounded to the nth degree when one considers that the failed states which most of the caravan peoples originate from suffered failure because amerika the abortion of a place, deliberately engineered the failures to make amerika's theft of all resources in latin america, easier and less expensive.
Run along and study exactly how amerika has deliberately destroyed Guatemala and Honduras then come back here and try to justify the attacks on a few hundred thousand of those people fleeing lawlessness and corruption that the amerikan government has caused in your name.

Not that it matters - trump or any of his ilk have no chance of preventing the Latin American influx.
Once again if you study history you will discover that over the millennia numerous other populations have attempted to prevent needs driven migration into what they have arbitrarily decided are 'their' lands and have used exactly the same techniques the trump scumbags propose. They inevitably fail. Mass migrations are relentless they cannot be 'blocked' the only viable strategy has been to remove the attraction by ensuring economic improvement in the areas that migrants come from.

If amerikans actually want to stop the migration, which is debatable since the rich who control amerika believe increasing the population to be an excellent way to go since they profit from more humans and increased population density, but let's pretend that ordinary citizens actually have a say in what happens in amerika, then amerikans need to fix that which they f**ked. Central amerikans have endured decades of corrupt amerikan installed 'governments' which regarded their primary mission (after trousering all funds in their purview) to be confiscating all land from the people who have lived on it going back at least a few thousand years, then selling that stolen land to amerikan corporations, hedge funds, retirement schemes, AKA any & all of Wall St's scams.

None of the migr
Everybody in amerika has been aware of this even tho they pretend they are ignorant of their culture's rapacious thefts it is impossible for anyone with half a brain not to see 2 + 2 = 4.
So quit whining and either assist the new arrivals or, get yer arse into gear & ensure your mendacious leadership sets about making amends for the damage done in your name.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Nov 5, 2018 9:37:24 AM | 13

Should several thousand knuckle heads attempt to force entry into the United States,...
The news story should read as such,...
'Today, a couple thousand knuckleheads attacked our border. We shot them.'

Posted by: Josh | Nov 5, 2018 9:48:51 AM | 14

"Morally flawed"????? Morally flawed like Attila, Temuchin, Pol Pot...

I think this cartoon represents my feelings about HRC in the Oval Office.

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/11/this-nyt-cartoon-helps-trump-to-win.html

Posted by: Tom Welsh | Nov 5, 2018 9:52:37 AM | 15

You've got it backwards.

Trump just said, "Consider anyone who throws a rock to be using a rifle."
Trump Sparks Outrage with Claims That Rocks Should Be Treated As Firearms worth reading the whole DefenseOne article so I don't post it here.

The U.S. has brought the "indefinite prison of disappeared people without trial" ethic to America, from Israel, with Gitmo. Now we are literally testing a trial balloon of the "shoot people who throw rocks" ethic. AND the "Use the military for civilian police issues" habit.

This is step 5 on the 10 steps to a fascist totalitarian police state. Can't you see the next moves? If throwing rocks means using a rifle, ANY demonstration where "someone" throws a rock will justify the use of deadly fire--and the military will be used to keep down the civilian population.

America decided against this with the Kent State massacre, with 4 dead and 9 wounded. Israel decided FOR this, with 168 dead and over 1,400 wounded by snipers in recent demonstrations. Now Trump is trying to turn America into Israel.

Ret. Gen. Dempsey is not falling for it, but he's out. Soldiers can keep being replaced until ones that follow orders are in place, as done with Tiananmen Square.

The timing of this smells like a dead fish, too. Who initiated a crowd of protesters to come to the border, just in time for election week?

The cartoon rightly says that the military is fighting in the midterm elections. Given the editorial choice of fighting against {Russia, China, Iran}, the writer wisely chose the neutral fuzzy "The Middle East". America's military should not be used to make political hay, and it should not be used in a civilian police operation. The current operation is a dangerous step towards fascism, and it should be called out as such.

Posted by: Imagine | Nov 5, 2018 9:53:30 AM | 16

My personal opinion is that @Jay's posts must be removed. It's one thing to argue (or not) with the Empire's narrative promulgated here by @craigsummers, it's quite another to read the clinically insane schizophrenics who can not grasp the difference between defending borders and domestic law enforcement, between enforcing the rules of entry into a country and a mass murder of 11 people, between following the law as it pertains to crossing the borders of a country and neo-Nazism—an ideology of racial superiority and total physical extermination of people who are not like the others.

@Jay, you are in a state of induced hysteria and psychosis. You are unable to understand what's real and what's not. Stop listening to MSM and seek medical help. I'm not being sarcastic or mean, I actually think you are mentally unwell. Seek help.

Posted by: S | Nov 5, 2018 9:54:07 AM | 17

@A. Person:

"The possee commitatus law which prohibited federal troops from engaging in domestic law enforcement has been repealed.".

Wrong.

Defenders of neo-Nazi behavior in the USA are frequently ignorant of the laws of the land.

Now, if you'd just said the law had been abused by other US presidents, like but not limited to Clinton, you'd be on much firmer ground.


Nor did I say a thing specifically about Israel. But you've ascribed comments to me that I've not made.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 5, 2018 9:59:41 AM | 18

@A. Person:

"The possee commitatus law which prohibited federal troops from engaging in domestic law enforcement has been repealed.".

Wrong.

Defenders of neo-Nazi behavior in the USA are frequently ignorant of the laws of the land.

Now, if you'd just said the law had been abused by other US presidents, like but not limited to Clinton, you'd be on much firmer ground.


Nor did I say a thing specifically about Israel. But you've ascribed comments to me that I've not made.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 5, 2018 9:59:57 AM | 19

I don't think the NYT readership is that big and that diverse to the point one cartoon can tip any midterm elections.

@Posted by: morongobill | Nov 5, 2018 8:48:58 AM | 5

The hole is much deeper than that.

First things first: since 2008, the USA depends on vegetative growth to show high GDP growths. That's why Japan is considering, slowly but surely, opening up its borders.

Second: this mass immigration from Latin America is fruit of inumerous American backed regime changes, aimed at stifling industrialization of the region, thus empoverishing its peoples. This is true even for the Monroe Doctrine poster boy, Mexico.

Posted by: VK | Nov 5, 2018 10:02:39 AM | 20

@erik:

Why? for highlighting neo-Nazi elements to the blog post?

I'm not the party who screamed "invaders" about some poor brown people fleeing violence. But the guy who killed 12 Jews in Pittsburgh did, so did...

And yeah, "invaders", and the like, was applied to Jews fleeing Nazi Europe in the later 1930s and 1940s.

Please, really, post more defense of neo-Nazism. It so undermines your claims.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 5, 2018 10:07:38 AM | 21

@erik:

Why? for highlighting neo-Nazi elements to the blog post?

I'm not the party who screamed "invaders" about some poor brown people fleeing violence. But the guy who killed 12 Jews in Pittsburgh did, so did...

And yeah, "invaders", and the like, was applied to Jews fleeing Nazi Europe in the later 1930s and 1940s.

Please, really, post more defense of neo-Nazism. It so undermines your claims.

Posted by: Jay | Nov 5, 2018 10:07:58 AM | 22

The Pentagon has refused Trump's order to send troops to the southern border. For the reason Jay mentioned @3and4. Now you want to kick his ass out.

Anyhow, I read it in Sputnick so I'm not sure if it's fake news or the God's own truth. But that's not the only place it's been reported.

Trump wanted to call it "Operation Faithful Patriot"...cringe worthy or what?

At first the Donald said that if they threw rocks then shoot the motherfuckers. He has since dialed that back to lock them up for ever. Some CoC

Word is that there's lots of militias heading south to protect the border and their wives and children from the oncoming hordes. These rubes have been waiting for a chance like this forever, a chance to shoot brown people and call it patriotism.

Posted by: peter | Nov 5, 2018 10:08:53 AM | 23

@Josh:

"The news story should read as such,...'Today, a couple thousand knuckleheads attacked our border. We shot them.'"

And when your grandparents immigrated to the USA? Or are of Native ancestry more closely related to these brown people of Central America than some European stock?

Then "force into"? Are all of your ilk as ignorant as Trump?

Posted by: Jay | Nov 5, 2018 10:11:54 AM | 24

Dems are fucking bonkers with the caravans. It's as if these fools didn't know Europe does exist and had the same thing happen, on a far bigger magnitude, or didn't learn the lesson - as if Brexit, Le Pen, Lega, Orban and others didn't really exist in their strictly America-centered world.

As a matter of fact, any deliberately illegal entry of anyone into a foreign country represents per se an invasion. it's just that it's minimal when it's a couple of people, and not all invasions are armed gangs of conquistadores ready to loot the gold from the temples, or Mongols on rampage. Not all invasions require military will kill on sight orders, though. Some measure is required.

Now, where Dems are bloody idiots is that only a part of the progressive wing will see the caravans as nice people to be welcome. Part of the uber-capitalist wing will see them as a great opportunity as well, but for very different reasons. The thing is, the inner subconscious of a majority of Westerners will basically have 2 very different interpretations of a vast column of people walking towards their border.
One, which is quite recent, occurs if it's a large group of unarmed civilians and families from a neighbouring country, fleeing it under direct threat of closeby invading and advancing enemy armies; in this case, the obvious reference in Western psyche, specially European one, will be WW II and the hosts of panicked civilians fleeing before the enemy onslaught.
The other reference from the collective psyche, which obviously is the one that lurks in the mind of most Westerners who saw the vids and pictures of the huge crowds of migrants back in 2015/16 - and which will likely occur for some Americans as well, with the caravans -, is obviously the far older picture of the Barbarian Invasions. The ones ironically called nowadays as "Migration period" by revisionist history in German and Anglo-Saxon areas, for obvious reasons (they didn't want to tarnish their ancestors by reflecting they were bloody savages that nearly wiped out civilization, by fear that it would reflect badly on them); karmic justice puts them now in a bad spot since they're quite forced to consider the current wave as mere "migration" and no big deal at all, just like in 406.

Of course, there's also karmic justice in having the US tear itself apart and being slowly invaded by those whose countries it has wrecked beyond recognition for the last century. But we must be absolutely honest about it. Allowing masses of migrants into the US isn't about Central Americans deserving a better life in the US, it's about punishing the US by wrecking it and by pushing it's ever-polarizing political sides towards civil war.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 5, 2018 10:13:32 AM | 25

The Caravan and immigration issues have only benefited Trump.

Posted by: craigsummers | Nov 5, 2018 10:28:47 AM | 26

applying for asylum does not constitute illegal entry

the USA has ways of dealing with these people that do not require the presence of the US military

the arms is being sent there for symbolic purposes and they know it

Posted by: ralphieboy | Nov 5, 2018 10:41:52 AM | 27

The members of the caravan have made clear -- although it seems not to have penetrated to even most of the alternative media -- that they are fleeing violence (the violence that the United States has created in their countries) and seeking safety and protection (asylum).

Under United States and international law (to the extent that the latter may have any relevance in the United States), every foreigner has the right to approach a United States point of entry and request asylum. After the request has been filed, the reqest and the asylum seeker, again under United States and international law, must be given an impartial review. If the request is legitimate, the person, in conformity with United States law, must be granted asylum. If not, the person faces deportation.

The Trump Administration has prevented -- at gun point at the border weith Mexico -- tens of thousands of persons from ever entering the country in order to avoid having to grant them the due process of an impartial hearing and evaluation, precisely because 90% to 95% of those asylum requests are legitimate.

That those refused entry try to cross illegally at great risk to their lives is testimony to their desperation. Their refusal to remain in Mexico is testimony to the utter lack of safety there. Mexico is not listed as one of the most violent countries in the world for nothing.

Posted by: RJPJR | Nov 5, 2018 10:48:41 AM | 28

Cartoons like the above can only help Trump win the midterm elections. One wonders why the NYT is willingly playing into his hands with this.

Probably another case of those with narrow minds surrounding themselves with sycophants, to borrow from a comment in the open thread. The NYT et cabal are getting more and more irrational by the day. It can only end in self-destruction, surely?

Posted by: BM | Nov 5, 2018 10:51:08 AM | 29

@JohnnyHeald (aka craigsummers)

Hey Johnny! Why haven't you answered any of my questions in the Yemen After 200,000 died thread?

As a Director of Gallop International and leader of ORB Intl, we could learn a lot from you about how your work for USA and UK govt shapes public opinion.

Hey, did you help them with the Caravan?!

Oh, and I also wanted to ask you: What was your personal involvement in getting approvals from ISIS to conduct the Raqqa survey? I bet you've got some good story's about that. We're all ears, Johnny!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 5, 2018 10:57:27 AM | 30


There are valid reasons to be against illegal immigration. Labour arbitrage (undocumented labour abuse and wage suppression, etc)

Posted by: PRA | Nov 5, 2018 11:00:20 AM | 31

CJ

There is a 180° difference between 5,000 North American Catholic familias who speak English, have trade skills and have family support groups in Ustados Unidos coming on foot, and the 1,125,000 non-Americans flying over the border by the jumbo jet load, every year, with car, motel and a job waiting for them as they step off the plane.

And that Federally-sanctioned invasion by Asians into USA is itself 180° different from 100,000s of military-age Muslim males who don't share the language, religion or culture, have no support groups, and are radicalized by decades of Od Yinon genocidal war, pouring into EU. That is truly an invasion of the antedeluvian sort.

Trump is using North American internal migration as a dog whistle for circling the White wagons, and to obscure that his administration has *increased* the influx of Asians, and now Russians, over the influx under Bush and Obama, an influx flooding USA CCs, grad schools and stealing an estimated 93% of high-tech jobs from USAryan citizens, at a time when Big Education is pouring $100Bs of tax funds into mandatory STEM indoctrination for all students, despite the labor statistics showing that USA students have less than a 10% chance at a STEM career. Where is the trades training!?

"We'll see what Iran does. They're not doing very well."

Posted by: Anton Worter | Nov 5, 2018 11:00:56 AM | 32

The USA should use its military to secure the interests of Israel and not the USA. It is the job of the NYT to sell the interests of Israel as legit and those of the USA as illegitimate. The NYT is only protecting its own.

Posted by: Hem Lock | Nov 5, 2018 11:17:39 AM | 33

Trump had the caravan of migrants organised himself, didn't he?

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 5, 2018 11:18:56 AM | 34

.. a cartoon is supposed to make fun, be ironical / sarcastic, make ppl sit up, or even on occasion send a hidden message, etc.

The cartoonist Chapatte is Swiss, I even met him once (at some bash signing thing, I don’t know him, though I know a relative of his..)

Afaik, he is solidly on the side of the ‘media’, Dems in the US, Socialists in CH, and loathes Trump, etc. Which explains (… ?):

a) the mistake of ‘enroll’ for ‘enlist’ - one doesn’t enroll in the US army. Typical Swissie mistake, as CH has a conscript army. (Checking now I see the word in the cartoon has been changed to 'enlist' .. in 5 mins since I write..)

b) the author ostensibly accepts that US soldiers purpose is to fight evil terrorists in the ME (9/11 Saudi terrorists, head-choppers, Taliban, sand n****** etc.) if that is tongue in cheek, the point is lost

c) finally that Trump is supposedly subverting the Army by sending troops down to the Mexico border..

It is an anti-Trump cartoon, really confused, so not successful.

Other cartoons by him here, some are good, others not-so-much:

https://www.chappatte.com/en/


Posted by: Noirette | Nov 5, 2018 11:19:48 AM | 35

Schooling Jay:

Section 1076 of the 2006 John Warner National Defense Authorization… titled "Use of the Armed Forces in major public emergencies,” provides that “The President may employ the armed forces... to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition... the President determines that... domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order... or [to] suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such... a condition... so hinders the execution of the laws... that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law... or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.”

So then the Possee Comitatus Act is repealed by the John Warner Act. The federal government may send troops to the border to kill any American (Central) that throws a rock. Killing rock-throwers = MAGA.

Posted by: A. Person | Nov 5, 2018 11:22:48 AM | 36

The caravan was organised into a single column so that it looked like the image of the column of refugees used by Nigel Farage to frighten the Brits into voting for Brexit, as they did. A single column is a menace people can react to; individual migrants aren't. Of course in Farage's case it was a fake, as they Brexiters claimed 70 million Turks were coming and couldn't be prevented, but the photo actually showed Syrians whose arrival in Britain was controlled.

Posted by: Laguerre | Nov 5, 2018 11:24:56 AM | 37

Using the military against these people is obscene.
The US' military presence (to use a euphemism) in the ME is obscene.

These are communicating vessels.
I thought most people here would agree to that.

Posted by: bjd | Nov 5, 2018 11:49:20 AM | 38

Jay;How about a Civil War?1861-5.Or the Kent St. massacre?

Posted by: dahoit | Nov 5, 2018 11:51:08 AM | 39

Unfortunately, I think there are more tacit supporters of the US imperialism suggested by the cartoon than we would like to admit there are. Many USians have this conditioned reflex to support any impulse at all to display US power and authority every time they see the flag and a fully kitted soldier. 50% of the discretionary budget goes to war (and that doesn't include some $21 trillion in "unaccountable adjustments" that have been occurring since the nineties), and we're consistently reminded of how effing awesome we are because no other country has a (*insert dubiously practical weapon system here)like we do and therefore, that somehow entitles the US to lord over the rest of the planet.
And I won't even mention that ol' manifest destiny thing...
I hope your shoulder feels better soon, b.

Posted by: robjira | Nov 5, 2018 11:55:59 AM | 40

In order to effect entry into the U.S. the caravan should conduct a mass conversion to judaism. Not only would the gates be thrown wide open (and the red carpet rolled out), the military would probably be instructed to escort them straight to the White House. They would then be prioritized for any and all social programs (a la: the Jackson-Vanik Amendment).

Win/win for everbody.

At the very least it would be highly entertaining to see the fallout from such a proclamation.

Posted by: pantaraxia | Nov 5, 2018 11:56:44 AM | 41

Trump has been whipping up racism and xenophobia. Most Americans reject it. And most Americans see this as a publicity stunt by Trump.

Posted by: Bob In Portland | Nov 5, 2018 12:02:15 PM | 42

Who came up with the idea of an immigrant march to the US southern border just before the mid-term elections and who is funding it?

If they are anti-Trump then they must be the stupidest morons in history.

Posted by: AriusArmenian | Nov 5, 2018 12:03:51 PM | 43

Laguerre: the worst is that I can well picture well-meaning liberals working to organize them as a big caravan, to make a bigger impact on the people, in the foolish hope that it will cause more compassion and empathy and push the people towards a more open and tolerant position. This would of course work wonders with them and like-minded people, and they don't seem to grasp they are in the minority, and this will have the opposite effect on most people.

Noirette - 33: Chapatte is half-Lebanese, he should know how Western (and Israeli) meddling is causing havoc in the Near and Middle-East. So, as you wonder yourself in your b point, I'm really not sure what to make out of the "I wanted to fight in the Middle-East". Is it supposed to be an idealistic guy who volunteered to fight ISIS, or is it supposed to be some racist that just wanted to bash Arabs. That's probably very clear in his mind, as such confusing things usually are - confusing for everyone else but pretty obvious for us when we come with the idea.
Of course, though, he's usually on the MSM side, considering he's drawing for Swiss, European and even American major newspapers. You probably need to be a good cartoonist to work for NYT, but you also definitely need to at least appear as fully compatible with their inner political positions.

That said, just like the "Kavanaugh is a rapist" hype, the caravan hype will of course mobilize the progressive base to vote, but will have a bigger effect on the rest of the voters and will push them away from the Democrats. If handled well and not pushed too far, it could work in their favour, I guess. But they can't do nuance and subtlety - if only because there's plenty of radical progressives ready to go farther -, and this ends up biting them in the behind.
I suppose they hope to garner more Hispanic votes, but I'm not sure they'll be able to gain more this way - the 2016 campaign should already have been enough for Hispanic voters to decide if they want to support Trump and GOP or to oppose them. All in all, it's the kind of issues I would've rather tackled after the midterms rather than before.
Just after the Kavanaugh circus, I was thinking the GOP would lose the House, but by a small margin, way smaller than what pollsters assume and Dems hope; with the advent of the caravans circus, I'm beginning to think the GOP might keep both majorities, by tiny margins obviously. Not that they deserve to keep them, GOP deserves to lose big time - but the trick is that there's barely any candidate that deserves to actually win a seat, and the Dems clearly don't deserve to win anymore than the GOP, so there's no good choice at all at the national level (individually, in a few races, obviously some candidates deserve to win over the rest of the sorry lot).

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Nov 5, 2018 12:05:17 PM | 44

B.

In answer to your question, IMHO we are witnessing a very choreographed effort at political theater on the part of both establishment R's and D's to generate interest in the election. The ultimate point is to divide the country, which from my perspective, as a lefty who lives and thrives among R's is not that divided as evidenced by the 2016 election. The game is divide and rule.

The elites of the US are very perturbed that Senator Sanders had such a following in the last go around with 75% popularity while both running establishment candidates had negatives ratings greater than their positive ones.

Looking at polling in the US it has been reported that a great majority of people in the country want Single Payer Health Care, including ~50% R's. Additionally, some 80% of the population agree that climate change is a major issue and want the government to do something about it. This cuts across both parties. Meanwhile, neither party is actively pushing Single Payer, while some Democrats show support, while the establishment is campaigning to save the insurance and pharmaceutical industies' bonanza of ObamaCare.

IMO we have the makings of a united insurrection on our hands and it is a requirement to keep Americans at war with each other, rather than them realizing they have been fooled by the media and sociopathic politicians.

Also interestingly, the biggest fear people have in the US, according to the following poll is corrupt politicians. How do you campaign against that when you have your fingers in the till?

Additionally, according to this poll the biggest fears other than crooked politicians, are primarily related to the environment. Neither party is attempting to address this issue.


https://blogs.chapman.edu/wilkinson/2018/10/16/americas-top-fears-2018/

Posted by: Michael | Nov 5, 2018 12:09:44 PM | 45

The Democrats are flogging a dead horse with the 'poor brown people' angle. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of brown people in the US legally approve of Trump's policies.

Posted by: dh | Nov 5, 2018 12:10:14 PM | 46

Clueless Joe @ 41, OK about all that, yes, so ..see these ‘caravans’ or more prosaically groups of ppl marching towards some kind of OECD place which has been touted / happening in Europe for about now 3 years or more.. (Merkel acceptance playing a big part.)

The iconography, the biz aspect, etc. are quite well understood. The US having only the one border from the South is behind the times! Of course to keep these ppl marching and looking good on pix takes quite a bit or organisation / money.

Ex.

https://www.herald.ie/news/syrian-refugees-may-be-housed-in-army-barracks-or-schools-31503778.html

https://www.thedailybeast.com/refugees-on-the-march-in-hungary-believe-they-will-overcome

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/25/19/2DC4554F00000578-0-image-a-2_1445802727938.jpg


Posted by: Noirette | Nov 5, 2018 12:24:16 PM | 47

This will be somewhat off-topic because b's point was to show the subliminal messages in the cartoon, and to observe that this probably backfires and helps Trump, and finally to wonder if the NYT backfires on purpose - i.e. actually has that subtlety in its approach - or if this is yet another instance among thousands of the former establishment playing its hand all wrong in the face of huge paradigm changes.

In this context, talk about the caravan itself is somewhat off-topic, but I have seen it observed that the majority of the caravan comprises young single males without families and also that some of these guys are carrying pistols and seem comfortable with the fit. And didn't I see Soros and a credit card company now colluding to offer these people money (at profit-making interest if possible)?

This caravan has such a sponsored feel about it, after all the false flags we've seen, that no one can take it seriously. It's not a humanitarian cause, it's a humanitarian hoax. The only question is, when it comes to the confrontation, how will the shooters start the violence? It will actually be fascinating to see how well or how badly the administration will play this. So far it's playing it flawlessly.

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 5, 2018 12:25:50 PM | 48

What the cartoon says to me is that it is a distraction of major proportions from the issues this election ought to be addressing, and every election going way back to when the oligarchs really took over this country - late in the Clinton presidency would be the time that happened, though we can argue it goes even further back than that.

RT has a good opinion piece today, entitled "It's not Russia that's damaging American Democracy - it's Money" written by Danielle Ryan. I will just quote one segment; the entire article is short but worth reading. A couple of the money-runners are imaged at the top. Oh boy.

"...getting money out of politics and taking back control of their democracy does not seem to be as big a focus as it should be for most Americans. Instead, super-rich elites, aided by the mainstream media, have been massively successful in distracting the population with conveniently constructed narratives..."

This is what it is all about. Our opinions as US citizens do not - do not! - matter.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 5, 2018 12:30:56 PM | 49

Michael @ 42, a big yes to your post. That was the message I got also. Back in the day these sorts of things used to be called 'red herrings'.

Posted by: juliania | Nov 5, 2018 12:34:52 PM | 50

Aah…. the woeful state of the Outlaw US Empire's military, done in by Neoliberal ideology, the tool designed to help Wall Street being destroyed by its machinations. Yesterday, a translated Russian article based upon a Reuters report and the Department of War research paper (Large PDF) it was based upon appeared at The Saker. Instead of writing a separate comment here, what follows is the comment I made there.

"What the Reuters article makes clear but avoids mentioning is the culprit is Neoliberal ideology that resulted in the deindustrialization and financialization of the Outlaw US Empire's domestic economy all for a Few Dollars More--that such hollowing out was official Washington--and Wall Street--policy starting with Carter in 1978, greatly accelerated by Bush/Reagan during the 1980s, then finished off by Clinton/Bush from 1993-2008. The Defense Department research paper that's linked is also a hoot as it calls for a level of performance by the procurement and manufacturing systems that's impossible to accomplish given decades of corruption that's made the MIC what it is today--a maker of overpriced junk. Read the transcript of the latest Michael Hudson interview to discover Wall Street's policy goals and compare them to what Trump wants to accomplish via MAGA, where Hudson states banks don't lend to--help capitalize--industry because not enough profit exists there compared to other opportunities.

So, as with Rome, Greed is Good has done more to hinder the Outlaw US Empire than anything done by the so-called Revisionist Enemies. Combined with Trump's totally unwise Trade War policy forcing all other nations to abandon US-centric financial institutions and its currency, the specter of the Outlaw US Empire being defeated by its own ideology is rather marvelous, even hilarious, although any levity must be tempered by the Empire's brutality and its massive crimes against humanity that've destroyed millions of innocents.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 5, 2018 12:51:45 PM | 51

@42 Michael

Thanks for the link to that poll. Those are astonishing results, to find the mainstream population afraid of the same things we are: that the US is not being representatively governed because its government is totally corrupt, and that meanwhile the planet and country are being stripped of resources, in a vicious downward spiral of paralysis.

It's worth quoting the results in full (sorry it doesn't format well):

[begin]

Below is a list of the 10 fears for which the highest percentage of Americans reported being "Afraid" or "Very Afraid.":
Top Ten Fears of 2018 --->> % Afraid or Very Afraid

1. Corrupt government officials --->> 74%
2. Pollution of oceans, rivers and lakes --->> 62%
3. Pollution of drinking water --->> 61%
4. Not having enough money for the future --->> 57%
5. People I love becoming seriously ill --->> 57%
6. People I love dying --->> 56%
7. Air pollution --->> 55%
8. Extinction of plant and animal species --->> 54%
9. Global warming and climate change --->> 53%
10. High medical bills --->> 53%

-- America’s Top Fears 2018 - Chapman University Survey of American Fears

[end]

If there's any reality in these numbers it means that a politically vast majority of people in the US are focused on the right things, principal among which is that their recourse to address these things is completely broken. The obvious thought in a once famously "can-do" culture must obviously be that the government must be fixed or replaced. The tough question lingering is, How?

Posted by: Grieved | Nov 5, 2018 12:56:11 PM | 52

I have full confidence the military will turn this into a bloodbath, when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. They're going to resent these brown people making them stand out in the hot sun getting all sweaty and will make them pay for being uncomfortable. Like any war the first thing the leaders have to do is demonize the enemy so the troops have a bad guy to fight.

Posted by: Arlo | Nov 5, 2018 1:06:20 PM | 53

Alastair Crooke (former UK dip and MI6) knows more about ME than any other white man. He describes how Jared Kushner became Trump's stovepipe of disinformation on behalf of Netanyahu and MBS.
quote
The economic sanctions on Iran will be much tighter, beyond what they were, before the nuclear agreement was signed. “Hit them in their pockets”, Netanyahu advised Trump: “if you hit them in their pockets, they will choke; and when they choke, they will throw out the ayatollahs””.
This was another bit of ‘stovepiped’ advice passed directly to the US President. His officials might have warned him that it was fantasy. There is no example of sanctions alone having toppled a state; and whilst the US can use its claim of judicial hegemony as an enforcement mechanism, the US has effectively isolated itself in sanctioning Iran: Europe wants no further insecurity. It wants no more refugees heading to Europe.
endquote
real full article here
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/11/05/unraveling-netanyahu-project-for-middle-east.html

Posted by: mauisurfer | Nov 5, 2018 1:07:05 PM | 54

@jay....in Toronto recently there were held the monk debates. Be it resolved that the future of politics is populist not liberal... amongst the shrillest resistance voices were ones like yours warning of the dire danger that 'i just want people that attend this debate to know that they may be sitting next to a neo Nazi'... the debate happened as it should.....Torontonian liberal intelligencia voted in majority that a real in the flesh 'neo-Nazi' one Steven Bannon had the more convincing argument.

The point is people like you seemingly don't want a debate on theses issues..... because you overwhelming lose these debates..much easier to claim the opponent is fascist or Nazi while actually acting like a fascist or Nazi might be expected to act.. derail debate vilify opponents protest violently etch etc. The so called right has little to be proud of IMO, yet the left should be disgraced and embarrassed by their recent actions.

Some reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

Anything at the consent factory would be helpful I'm sure...

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Nov 5, 2018 1:17:05 PM | 55

Oh and I thought one enlisted not enrolled in the military?

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Nov 5, 2018 1:18:13 PM | 56

karlof1 | Nov 5, 2018 12:51:45 PM | 48 says:

"So, as with Rome, Greed is Good has done more to hinder the Outlaw US Empire than anything done by the so-called Revisionist Enemies. Combined with Trump's totally unwise Trade War policy forcing all other nations to abandon US-centric financial institutions and its currency, the specter of the Outlaw US Empire being defeated by its own ideology is rather marvelous"

The U.S. is indeed collapsing under its own mismanagement, the result of converting its (weak) democracy into a full-fledged oligarchic dictatorship. The only solution is for the U.S. to retrench into a shell in order to re-make itself.

Intentionally or not, Trump's policies are hastening this retrenchment.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Nov 5, 2018 1:19:47 PM | 57


So Chump is presiding over the Israelization of the American military and we should be proud about this ? Stable genius thinks sending brigades to shoot at empoverished migrants, seeking refuge will make the American military into a first class fighting force to be respected around the world ? Didn't know making america great meant transforming marines into IDF diaper warriors. Then again deplorables won't see the drift, he's playing multi-dimensional chess...

Posted by: Augustin L | Nov 5, 2018 1:57:20 PM | 58

LMAO. In just a few years from now it will be no borders between states.
Everybody relax and watch...

Posted by: Vitaliy | Nov 5, 2018 2:02:05 PM | 59

In this context, talk about the caravan itself is somewhat off-topic. - Grieved at 45.

No, as it is *the main topic.* It is what ppl now see and discuss. They may be mistaken, fooled, whatever, that is another story.

…that the majority of the caravan comprises young single males without families and also that some of these guys are carrying pistols -- from same post.

Are you suggesting that only streams of starving skinny toddlers near deaths door in the arms of weeping mothers dressed in ‘ethnic garb’ hopefully in tatters are worthy of politically correct lacrimose and ersatz pity?

Do you, Grieved, not realise that desperately poor communities will, if they can, send off, away, the strongest / toughest / most resilient, savvy ppl - young males in the main - to try and earn something / get some position / to send money back home / effect some impact on …whatever?

So that these will be in the majority of ‘refugees’? In certain circumstances?

Posted by: Noirette | Nov 5, 2018 2:06:40 PM | 60

Reminds me of the "I didn't join up to fight for Al Qaeda in Syria" twitter campaign.

Posted by: ADKC | Nov 5, 2018 2:08:58 PM | 61

What is this? The New York Times does not use cartoons. So somewhat less surprising they don't know how to select or edit them. Mixed messages and floundering is what I see.

Or did they start using cartoons while I wasn't watching? It's been a while, what is on the front page is so uniformly noxious it became harder and harder to read Pravda on Hudson.

Posted by: oldhippie | Nov 5, 2018 2:21:13 PM | 62

How did this group of thousands come together to walk to US were Trump has vowed to keep illegals out. People like this would naturally come together if they were catching a ship, or at some sort of aid post refugee camp ect.

After a search on caravan starting point, I found this at the Guardian.

"Who organized the caravan?
In interviews, Honduran members of the group said that they learned about the caravan from Facebook posts, and a report on the local HCH television station, which erroneously suggested that a former congressman and radio host would cover the costs of the journey.
After that, rumours spread quickly, including the mistaken promise that any member would be given asylum in the US. Darwin Ramos, 30, said he was desperate to flee threats from a local drug gang, and when news of the caravan reached his neighbourhood, he seized on it as his best chance to escape."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/24/caravan-migrants-what-is-it-where-from-guatemala-honduras-immigrants-mexico


Uh huh. 'Somebody' made mistaken promises.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 5, 2018 2:28:56 PM | 63

William Adams@7 seems to think the US conniving at cruel dictatorships somehow justifies refusing to admit the right of asylum to the wrong-colored people. This is a non sequitur. If Hilary Clinton had dared to stand up for Zelaya after the coup in Honduras, Obama would have fired her ass pronto.

William Gruff@9 seems never to have heard of fake news. There is indeed fake news. It is manufactured largely by the government (aka Trump) and conservative media (aka rich people's echo chambers like Fox.) I don't believe even you accept this nonsense. This is not a military force. If gangsters have infiltrated the caravan, intent upon using the desperate asylum-seekers as, effectively, hostages, the last thing you need is soldiers. You need police. You've gone blood simple.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Nov 5, 2018 2:36:30 PM | 64

Well it would seem the fake left/right paradigm has once again worked its magic....... The distract and divide into fighting factions of partisans still works like a charm.

There's no right or left people, there's only top and bottom. Do try to keep up.

Posted by: Orville | Nov 5, 2018 2:45:51 PM | 65

@ Noirette | Nov 5, 2018 2:06:40 PM | 57

I agree with you, and I'll take this opportunity to release a bee that's been buzzing inside my bonnet for several days.

I was mildly surprised to find that many commenters who identify as progressive-liberal or even "leftist" on other sites I frequent so readily buy into the "invasion" scenario.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Trump coughed up a climactic red-meatball today in anticipation of tomorrow's elections: either announcing or tweeting, "The barbarians are at the gate! If they take another step, we will shoot them down like dogs!"

But I digress. The "bee" is that I've been unsuccessfully keeping an eye out for a reasonably honest, comprehensive report on both the origins and composition of the participants.

It's obvious enough to me that the "caravan" or "invasion" is very much like the folk tale of the six blind men who try to figure out what kind of animal an elephant is; long story short, they each make wrong guesses depending on which part of the elephant they felt.

Similarly, I notice a consistent division in describing the oncoming visitors that is clearly based on the individual's prejudices and predispositions. Some skeptics swear that this is manifestly a fake or contrived mob filled with "able-bodied" young men, with or without weapons; others scornfully note that the participants seem suspiciously "well-fed", are carrying backpacks and other "amenities".

And then there are the related allegations that this is all "obviously" a manufactured stunt, sponsored by George Soros or simpatico plutocrats (and/or Democratic Party poobahs), just like the EU and ME "color revolutions".

OTOH, sympathizers simply present the opposite spin: they assert that the march is authentic and genuine, and grew spontaneously via the "snowball effect" as it progressed.

I am more of a "sympathizer", and certainly don't get all worked up and self-righteous about the Sanctity of Borders, the necessity of vigorously repelling uninvited visitors by any means necessary, etc. But I don't find the settled perceptions of either "side" credible, trustworthy, or satisfying; it seems as if there are bits of truth filtered by agendas all around.

To me, these descriptions are largely projections that fill a journalistic vacuum, or excluded middle. I could really use someone of the caliber of a John Pilger or Vanessa Beeley digging in to these settled perceptions and tracing the factual origins and evolution of the march.

Posted by: Ort | Nov 5, 2018 3:02:04 PM | 66

@Posted by: VK | Nov 5, 2018 10:02:39 AM | 19

Not only stiffling industrialization, but also provoking forced displacements of people within the country to stole their lands for the US and local corporations. This has been achieved through the unvaluable help of death-squads whose members and leaders proudly wave, in an astonishing majority of cases, a grade from School of the Americas.

This forced displacements of people have been widely documented by researcing work on the terrain by organizations like Medicos Sin Fronteras through commited expatriates moved by the simple reason of helping unconscious of the shenanigans which take palce at the high rankings of this organizations in supporting US and NATO agenda especially in Syria, which does not at all diminishes their disinterested excellent work.

As a sample, this document, written in Spanish by Mabel González Bustelo for MSF some years ago, but that, sadly, does not mean it stops being actual, since, as Pat Lang has taken the trouble to remind us, "School of the Americas" is still open and US "AID" is still on..., with which this economic "measures" continue to be "promoted and impossed" in Central and Latin America to this very days...Just see what has happened with Bolsonaro and which economic policies he is going to develop...And what happens to those who try to resist...

BANISHED.
FORCED DISPLACEMENT IN COLOMBIA

Translation is mine of this extract from the introduction ( assisted by Google Translator )Worth trying to read it with an online translator, since has no waste. I encourage you to try it...

"The result wants to be an approximation to the forced displacement that links it with historical processes still underway in Colombia, exacerbated in the current circumstances by the neoliberal model and the economic policy that it induces. In this framework, and as a first precision, we must clarify that it is not about displacement "because of violence", nor due to armed conflict, or at least not primarily. Violence is only the instrument used to induce it. Displacement is used as a weapon of war but above all it is -and has always been in Colombia- a tool of economic accumulation and expansion of the great property. Its reasons are linked to a model of deep exclusion in the property of the land, with the institutional absence in large areas of the territory, with the exploitation of natural resources oriented to external markets and with the use of violence as a tool to achieve sociodemographic and economic recompositions in accordance with requirements of the country's elites and the world market. The only difference between the current moment and historical process is the expansion of the circuits of capital accumulation and the extension of the geography of the conflict, which "close" the exits and leave the peasants expelled from their lands without alternatives...."

Posted by: Sasha | Nov 5, 2018 3:21:12 PM | 67

@steven t johnson | 61

100% of the corporate mass media is "fake news". What anyone assumes to be legitimate news coming from corporate media is just fake news that has been tailored to be compatible with that person's biases and preconceptions. If a media consumer fails to identify it as "fake news" that is just an indication that the false narratives contained within that fake news were successfully implanted in that media consumer's consciousness without that media consumer being aware of it.

It is funny. Media consumers from Team Blue look at false narratives tailored for Team Red by FOX and exclaim "How could anyone believe that trash?" while media consumers from Team Red look at false narratives tailored for Team Blue by CNN or WaPo or The NYT and likewise express incredulity that anyone could be blind enough not to see the falsity in it.

Posted by: William Gruff | Nov 5, 2018 3:41:40 PM | 68

@Grieved 45

YES a humanitarian hoax. I can't figure why they aren't wearing White Helmets. Could someone donate a thousand as there must be plenty used ones around now. Or maybe there was only ten all that time.

The cartoon was weak as p!ss and only just sufficient to get paid for I guess.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Nov 5, 2018 3:56:48 PM | 69

Stop calling them "poor brown people", it's paternalistic and it is stoopid to focus on color. If they were a mass of poor white people, would it be ok to mow them down? They are poor and sometimes the one's flowing north are middle class. Trust me I know, you can pay 10,000 dollars to pay the smugglers but your too poor to make a living? The border is the border, PERIOD. Apply and await proper entry. Neo-Nazi? WTF, your a paranoid pendejo....

Posted by: Fernando Martinez | Nov 5, 2018 4:05:33 PM | 70

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pueblo_Sin_Fronteras
"Pueblo Sin Fronteras (en: People without Borders) is an immigration rights group known for organizing several high profile migrant caravans in Mexico and Central America. The organization's efforts to facilitate immigration and calls for open borders attracted considerable amounts of coverage in the Mexican and American media."

Pueblo Sin Fronteras website. Zero information there other than the have bases or offices in San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Tijuana in Mexico.
http://www.pueblosinfronteras.org/commitees.html
No information on who they are or who funds them. Very much a political organization.
On two caravans like this have occurred, both organized by this shadowy group.
Slow moving lots of press coverage that can last for weeks so long as the peasant suckers stay suckers and don't pull out. Very much an anti Trump political show put on by whoever funds and controls this Pueblo Sin Fronteras organisation.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 5, 2018 4:06:27 PM | 71

Jackrabbit

".......Hey Johnny! Why haven't you answered any of my questions in the Yemen After 200,000 died thread?......."

What questions?

Posted by: craigsummers | Nov 5, 2018 4:07:01 PM | 72

Grieved @49--

Of those ten, only one isn't a direct result of US federal government policy and the Neoliberal ideology driving it--"People I love dying," as that's a natural occurrence. I don't include "people I love becoming seriously ill" because much of that fear's driven by lacking the means to pay for remedy which is a result of policy choices. The same can be said of the "Caravan" as it exists as a direct result of Outlaw US Empire Imperialism as practiced since its inception. However, for US politicos and pundits, the blame/cause must always lie elsewhere, for Exceptionalists can never be wrong, even when such causation is as plain as the nose on your face. Unfortunately, the sample size of 1,190 is rather small, but the standings of the top ten since 2016 are useful as is the fact that they're all being ignored by both Congress and administration--except for healthcare, which is now a campaign issue.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 5, 2018 4:11:23 PM | 73

'Cartoons like the above can only help Trump win the midterm elections. One wonders why the NYT is willingly playing into his hands with this. '

NYT likely believes the US 'defence' depts proper role isnt defending US borders from invaders/caravans of people fleeing areas US invasions have destroyed but attacking other states

Posted by: brian | Nov 5, 2018 4:17:12 PM | 74

Don't play dumb @JohnnyHeald

You already replied to me on that thread. But you ignored the questions (so far).

> Hey Johnny, post a link to your most memorable selfy in a war-torn country!

> Hey Johnny! Where's your next "survey"? Yemen? Afghanistan? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia?

> Hey Johnny! How many people do you have on payroll in ME and Africa? By country, please.

> Hey Johnny! Does "the Company" know about your blogging habit?

> Hey Johnny! Do you have a guilty conscience? They say people with a guilty conscience WANT to get caught. Get it off your chest Johnny!

And don't forget the one above @28:

> What was your personal involvement in getting approvals from ISIS to conduct the Raqqa survey? I bet you've got some good stories about that. We're all ears, Johnny!

=
I've got lots more Johnny. But start with those, OK? Really looking forward to your answers.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 5, 2018 4:27:33 PM | 75

@Posted by: Noirette | Nov 5, 2018 2:06:40 PM | 57

Totally agree, and allow me to add that the fact that some of these young males could carry arms ( which sounds quite improbable since any arm cost a bunch of money ) does not seem to me suggestive of their desire of causing confrontation or turmoil, but really for to have a chance in face of the multiple dangers any migrant in the world has been, is, and will be, must pass through before even envision the borders of the country of destiny.
Tell that to the Sub-Saharians who are arriving in Lybia, where they meet the slave-trafficants; of course, these poor souls do not have enough money at their start point to be able to carry a weapon...otherwise they would have at least a chance...or not even...in front of an armed to the teeth gang...

Anyway, from the photograhs and videos I have watched so far, the caravan seems composed by mixed gender young people and some young mothers ( most probably single mothers, which is a wide condition in Central and Latin America due to status of women there ) with their children. Obviously, old, sick or weak people never migrate, sicne they will not succeed in arrivng at destinty.
As I have read, a suggestion was made to make the travel together ( what I do not know is whether that suggestion was made by people with any interest in US election or not, could have been.. ) and people gladly joined the motion, since this is a travel only who are oblied to it ( since nobody leaves its country willingly if not moved by neccesity, migration is always an uprooting ) knows about its dangers and ventures, especially at hands of mafias. On the other hand, being able to travel together, allow them to stablish friendship and comraderie along the way, which could be quite useful in the first moments at the guest country, especially if they lack any contact or social net there. They have the possibility of making plans for housing, caring of children and so on, so as to organize between themselves, while they are looking for jobs or already at work. At the same time, the caravan offers a more secure refuge for women, always much more vulnerable to undesirable contact or attacks.

Only people fixed on their own selfishness would think bad of people moving in caravan for migration purposes, always has been so, including when the first ships of settlers arrived in North America, they many, obviously, traveled together, and stablished together forming communities....

For the forgetful...

History of immigration to the United States

Irish migrants travelling to the US in 1840 in the so called "Hunger Ships"

31 striking photographs of when Spaniards were refugees

Posted by: Sasha | Nov 5, 2018 4:34:19 PM | 76

Centro Sin Fronteras is the parent group to Pueblo Sin Fronteras.
https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/centro-sin-fronteras/
"Elvira Arellano, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, former fugitive from U.S. immigration authorities, and activist for illegal immigrants in the U.S., formed the activist group La Familia Latina Unida (“The United Latin Family”) as an expansion of the Centro Sin Fronteras. [7] La Familia Latina Unida runs Pueblo Sin Fronteras (“People Without Borders”), a group that organizes “migrant caravans” from Mexico and Latin America to cross the U.S. border illegally"

CSF website here https://fluenglish.wordpress.com/about/
Again nothing on who finances them.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 5, 2018 4:34:48 PM | 77

Everyone should note the very cheap trick that Jay pulled in his post @3 and then repeated ad nauseum in subsequent posts.

It is here: "And the USA is not being invaded."

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

But the statement itself is a straw man, because b did not claim that the USA is being invaded.

b claimed (correctly) that this is a situation of "illegal entry by foreigners".
b claimed (also correctly) that the USA is in the habit of "Illegally invading and destroying countries in the Middle East"
It is Jay who has deliberately and dishonestly attempted to conflate the two.

Jay: "(And yes, he specifically used the word “invaders” in his rants.)"

And boo-hoo to him. But he isn't b, and b isn't him.

And as for Jay's post @20, well, how high can one man pile a straw man?

He repeats the word "invasion" like it is his personal mantra, which I suppose is fitting since he is the only person who is using that word to describe what is about to happen on the Mexico border. b certainly didn't.

But then again b appears to know what he is talking about.
Jay, well, not so much.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Nov 5, 2018 4:40:53 PM | 78

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 5, 2018 4:11:23 PM | 69

"People I love dying," as that's a natural occurrence.

You can't be serious if you're claiming that austerity policies and the whole phenomenon of requiring people to obtain money in order to obtain basic food, shelter, and medical care don't kill (I'd say murder) astronomical numbers of people every year. It's war by other means. Unless you'd also say de jure shooting wars and massacres are also "natural deaths".

Posted by: Russ | Nov 5, 2018 4:41:47 PM | 79

The majority of people in the caravan may be leaving their own countries due to violence poverty ect, but the caravan itself is a manufactured political event. left to their own devices, some may have moved towards the US in small groups, others would have been deterred due to Trumps immigration policy, but they have joined this so called caravan on false promises made by the organisers. Nothing better than kids, women and oldies doing it tough or better yet dying for political media coverage.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 5, 2018 4:41:49 PM | 80

@ RJPJR no. 26

To clarify what you posted about asylum laws, the various treaties and conventions on asylum that the US is a party to, explicitly state that the asylum seeker need not cross the border at a point of entry. He/she may cross anywhere and subsequently ask for asylum.

For non-asylum seekers crossing without presenting yourself at a border point of entry is a misdemeanor.

Posted by: sleepy | Nov 5, 2018 4:53:17 PM | 81

72 - Yes, Sasha, the first thing I recall upon reading about the caravans is that they travel in a group for safety and to avoid spending life sayings to coyotes.

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Nov 5, 2018 4:57:21 PM | 82

@ Yeah Right no 74

b claimed (correctly) that this is a situation of "illegal entry by foreigners".

Nope, it's not correct. The group is weeks away from the US border. No one has entered illegally or legally and I question how many will make the hundreds of miles trek through Mexico on foot.

If they request asylum, their entry is legal, regardless of whether the asylum claim is subsequently granted or denied (if denied they will be sent back). If they do not request asylum they will not be admitted. Undoubtedly some will successfully sneak across, but I suspect that number will be a small percentage given the spotlight and law enforcement attention that has been generated.

Posted by: sleepy | Nov 5, 2018 5:14:19 PM | 83

Peter AU 1 | Nov 5, 2018 4:34:48 PM | 73 says:

"Again nothing on who finances them. (Pueblo Sin Fronteras)"


This article, published the last time that Pueblo Sin Fronteras was in the headlines, (https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/) links "a group called CARA Family Detention Pro Bono Project" a group that has received funding from Soros, to Pueblo Sin Fronteras through a person named 'Alex Mensing' who works both for CARA and as "an on-the ground coordinator in Mexico for the Pueblo Sin Fronteras".

Posted by: dh-mtl | Nov 5, 2018 5:26:11 PM | 84

@ Russ 75

Thanks for stating that. I agree.

Posted by: WJ | Nov 5, 2018 5:33:04 PM | 85

Sleepy "If they request asylum, their entry is legal"

If they get into the US, immediately present themselves to authorities and request asylum, then their entry is deemed legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_Relating_to_the_Status_of_Refugees
US has signed up to the 1967 protocol but not the 1951 convention.

As for the politically organized caravan, the peasants have officially been offered a home in Mexico, but the organizers prefer them to go on to the US. As they have been offered a place in mexico, they are now economic migrants wanting greener pastures in the US rather than refugees.
The peasants themselves, I think are mostly genuine though organisers are mixed through the group. The peasants are no more than consumables in a political action.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 5, 2018 5:41:08 PM | 86

dh-mtl 80
Thanks.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 5, 2018 5:45:11 PM | 87

Russ @75--

Yeah, I had difficulty with that, perhaps influenced by three recent deaths in the family that were in no way caused by government policy, not that any of us "feared" their passing--they were 90, 87, and 82, their health eroding away regardless. I thought about commenting about an item published by the NY Times and republished in my local newspaper about the death of a Utah Mayor during his 4th(!) tour of Afghanistan as a member of Utah's National Guard--a place he should lawfully have never been sent to--his 4th tour illustrating the woeful state of the Outlaw US Empire's manpower.

Comparisons over three years also influenced me as in 2016 38.1% feared "People I love dying," whereas in 2017 it didn't make the top ten, then returned with a big upsurge in 2018 to 56.4%. Perhaps I should've made no distinctions given the year-by-year knee-jerk disparities.

Posted by: karlof1 | Nov 5, 2018 5:48:16 PM | 88

The New York Times is right. The US Troops role is to produce trouble for Europe. When Israel bombs Gaza, the Islamist will bomb Europe.

Because Israel has captured the birthstate of Christianity.

Israel has took Europe as a hostage. If Israel makes war to the Arabs, Europe pays the price.

So what is the possible solution for Europe?

Posted by: az | Nov 5, 2018 5:51:26 PM | 89

Posted by: sleepy | Nov 5, 2018 4:53:17 PM | 77

Thank you for the clarification! You are, of course, right. Indeed, many asylum seekers I have known carefully avoided ordinary points of entry for fear of being turned back by zealous border guards before being able to ask for asylum.

I suspect that there is an element of exploitation in the caravan, for somebody's political advantage, but that does not diminish the desperation of these people nor the levels of violence that they have been subjected to.

However, calling them "invaders" is a stretch too far and no different from Israel calling its asylum seekers (primarily from Ethiopia) "infiltrators", a term that the Israelis have long used for any non-Jew coming to Israel (at first primarily Christians, particularlly those associated with the various religious orders that have community houses in Jerusalem, Nazareth and Bethlehem, later any Muslims).

Posted by: RJPJR | Nov 5, 2018 5:53:05 PM | 90

"This article, published the last time that Pueblo Sin Fronteras was in the headlines, (https://joeforamerica.com/2018/04/whos-really-behind-the-illegal-immigrants-the-migrant-caravan-and-pueblo-sin-fronteras/) links "a group called CARA Family Detention Pro Bono Project" a group that has received funding from Soros, to Pueblo Sin Fronteras through a person named 'Alex Mensing' who works both for CARA and as "an on-the ground coordinator in Mexico for the Pueblo Sin Fronteras"

This proves nothing. Not to mention the source of this "evidence" was Glen Beck who showed absolutely no supporting evidence of any kind other than some random person who he claims works for the organization.

Even if Soros used them once the fact that their services are for hire to anyone leaves the door open for Trump himself to hire them to fire up his disillusioned base after his total subservience to Israel.

Posted by: Orville | Nov 5, 2018 5:58:47 PM | 91

Posted by: RJPJR | Nov 5, 2018 5:53:05 PM | 85

If Trump don't export workplaces for Latin americans, so Latin americans will invade USA. Otherwise Trump has to make war with Latin America. What is the solution?

Posted by: az | Nov 5, 2018 5:59:06 PM | 92


Posted by: az | Nov 5, 2018 5:59:06 PM | 86

The solution is let the Latin American countries find their own way. One of the worst tools that the United States uses is loans through the World Bank. They are given for "development" projects decided by the Bank's "experts" in consultation with the multinational corporations (usually United States corporations) that will do the work, with no consultation with the little people on the ground whose lives will be affected by the project.

The loans are at very low interest rates to be repaid over many years, even decades, but then, to be able to loan to other countries and aid their "development", after two of three years, the Bank sells the loans to private commercial banks to recover its lending capital. These evaluate the borrower, invariably decide that, because it is not a "developed" country, it is at risk, and raise the interest rates to upwards of 25%. The world's poor countries have paid back their initial borrowings many times over, and it is the ever greater outflow of this capital that keeps them poor.

When things get bad, as in a recession, the countries usually have to borrow more just to keep the payments up to date and avoid heavy penalties. The banks are backed by the private corporat-run dispute settlement courts, whose decisions are enforced by the major capital markets.

Most of this debt is what is termed "odious" under international law, for those forced to repay them were never consulted and -- the real damning factor -- never benefited from the borrowed money. If it had been put into building clinics and schools, it would still be odious because of the exhorbitant interest rates and the lack of consultation with those expected to repay the loan, but at least the little people would be getting something out of it. As it is, they get land grabs, pollution, death squads etc.

Posted by: RJPJR | Nov 5, 2018 6:13:55 PM | 93

Jackrabbit

Hey Johnny, post a link to your most memorable selfy in a war-torn country! Hey Johnny! Where's your next "survey"? Yemen? Afghanistan? Iran? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia?

Hey Johnny! How many people do you have on payroll in ME and Africa? By country, please.

Hey Johnny! Does "the Company" know about your blogging habit?

Hey Johnny! Do you have a guilty conscience? They say people with a guilty conscience WANT to get caught. Get it off your chest Johnny!

What was your personal involvement in getting approvals from ISIS to conduct the Raqqa survey? I bet you've got some good stories about that. We're all ears, Johnny!

Apparently, you are going to have to ask Johnny Heald those questions. I don't have a clue. I can help you with questions like,

who murdered the 34 Journalists in Russia during Putin's rein?
who murdered the three Russian journalist investigating Wagner in the CAR?
Who murdered Magnitsky?
who shot down MH17?
Who ordered the interference in the US election?
who attempted to murder the Skripals?

etc., etc., etc., but the Hohnny Heald business practices are something only he knows and you should ask him.

Thanks.

Posted by: craigsummers | Nov 5, 2018 6:14:32 PM | 94

The money.

...A vital part of that expansion has involved money: major donations from some of the nation’s wealthiest liberal foundations, including the Ford Foundation, the Carnegie Corporation of New York, the Open Society Foundations of the financier George Soros, and the Atlantic Philanthropies. Over the past decade those donors have invested more than $300 million in immigrant organizations, including many fighting for a pathway to citizenship for immigrants here illegally....
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/15/us/obama-immigration-policy-changes.html

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Nov 5, 2018 6:16:23 PM | 95

Sales of the Dodge Grand Caravan will be adversely affected by the negative connotation now applied to the word "Caravan".

Now "Pacifica" is a poor name choice for a family wagon destined to sell in a country with $1.5 billion a day spent on military contracts. What Soccer Mom envisions herself as a Pacifist? Not many.

Posted by: fast freddy | Nov 5, 2018 6:22:36 PM | 96

How can people not see this caravan march as the obvious false flag it is to influence the election. The actors are being paid and busses have been mobilized and paid for to move them forward. The right says Soros money might be behind it and they may be right. Surprised the left has not blamed Putin. Which proves my point that the left is actively conspiring with the right the keep them in power. Why wouldnt they care?. As Caitlin Johnstone says, after I said it, they get paid the same no matter what. As part of a 2 party monopoly,with 2 parties the minimum to serve the illusion of a representative Democracy,the oiligarchs will continue to throw money to the loser.

This has been scripted well in advance. Republicans need to maintain both houses for the 2nd stage of Trumps destruction of America (credibility and finance), especially its government and middle class as the elite will be protected from the damage. Democrats are standing on the sidelines rambling about Russia Gate or Khashoggi Gate or mobilizing their forces to support gay marriages and transgender access to bathrooms. And to boot they bring out Hillary and Obama at the last moment to bash Trump to galvanize the rights voters even more. No other purpose for doing so.

To be sure, a Democratic win means nothing except perhaps as a poor proxy for a lack of support for Trump. 40% of their candidates come from the military or intelligence services. They are owned by the oligarchs as much as tbe Republicans. The only difference in the parties is the costumes they wear and the rhetoric the speak

Or perhaps its as simple as not wanting to share responsibility for what is to come as their best shot to win in 2020

Frankly the best outcome would be the decimation of the Democrat Party and its subsequent dissolution. Lets end the farce of a Democracy. One party for all. Hail Trump or whomever he appoints as his successor, or just let the elites vote and announce who they voted for every 4 years. Thats pretty much what the constitution meant for us to be doing anyways. The idea of a Direct vote by all citizens for President and Senate would have horrified them. Seeing the results of elections these past 40 years I have concluded they are right.


Posted by: Pft | Nov 5, 2018 6:36:34 PM | 97

b, RJPJR, Jay, Yeah Right, et al

Invaders or Dupes? Have the caravan migrants been misled?

While it's true that anyone can request asylum, the caravan migrants appear to be under the impression that they have a legitimate claim to asylum in USA because they are fleeing gang violence in their home country. That is very likely to be untrue.

Such a claim MIGHT be valid in countries that have signed the Cartagena Declaration and ratified it into law - but the US has not. The Declaration expands the definition of refugees to include:

"persons who have fled their country because their lives, security or freedom have been threatened by generalized violence, foreign aggression, internal conflicts, massive violation of human rights or other circumstances which have seriously disturbed public order".

The Brazil Declaration is an effort to expand the Cartegena Declaration. The USA is also not involved in this effort either, though I believe that they have "observer" status.

FYI
The 1951 UN Convention as amended defines a refugee as someone with a "well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion". The caravan stories I have heard are unlikely to qualify under this definition.

Some countries that have loads of asylum seekers have set up camps to hold them. Some, like Australia, even have camps in foreign countries. Trump's talk of setting up tents implies that USA will also establish such camps. Life in these camps is likely to be uncomfortable and unproductive. Only those will genuine asylum claims would tough it out.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 5, 2018 6:42:21 PM | 98

@JohnnyHeald (aka craigsummers)

But you are Johnny Heald. Director of Gallop Intl and Head of ORB Intl. Infamous producer of Iraq and Syrian "surveys".

This was clear from the our interaction in the thread. I explained it here and here. Then you went silent for a few days.

It's OK Johnny, we know who you are now. You can talk freely. Since you're here, give us some insights! (please)

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Nov 5, 2018 6:54:40 PM | 99

@91 pft

While I won't jump into the question as to how the rethugz differ from the jackasses, I will just simply state that if it were an elaborate hoax and the prime actors like Obama, Hillary, Clapper, Brennan, etc. DID NOT care one iota who wins, then my god they must have went to Juilliard because they can sure play manic, haggard, and distressed partisans. Did you see Obama stumping on video? My god has the man fallen to pandering and shriveled levels of desperation. You can see it in their eyes! Forget the nomination! *Throws Tonies and Oscars*

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Nov 5, 2018 6:56:41 PM | 100

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