Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 10, 2018

U.S. Intelligence Had A 'Duty To Warn' Khashoggi - Why Didn't That Happen?

It is beyond doubt that the Saudi government abducted, or killed, the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. But what did the Trump administration knew about the threat to Khashoggi? Did U.S. intelligence services warn him as their regulations require? Was such a warning blocked by the White House? And what will Trump do about the case?

The Turkish government published pictures of 15 men who had come from Saudi Arabia and were in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul shortly before Khashoggi visited it to get his divorce papers. They moved Khashoggi to the residence of the consul and later that day flew back on the same two private Saudi jets that had brought them to Istanbul.

At least 8 of the 15 men have been identified as Saudi royal military. At least three are bodyguards of the Saudi clown prince Mohammad bin Salman. It is thereby obvious that the clown prince himself gave the order for the operation. One of the 15 is Dr. Salah Muhammed Al-Tubaigy, the head of forensic evidence at the Saudi General Security Department.

Anonymous Turkish sources assert that Khashoggi was killed, his body cut to pieces and taken away. They even claim that there is video of the murder:

The official described a quick and complex operation in which Mr. Khashoggi was killed within two hours of his arrival at the consulate by a team of Saudi agents, who dismembered his body with a bone saw they brought for the purpose.

“It is like ‘Pulp Fiction,’” the official said.
Mr. Erdogan was informed of the conclusions on Saturday, according to several people with knowledge of the briefings, and he has since dispatched officials to anonymously tell myriad news outlets, including The New York Times, that Mr. Khashoggi was killed inside the Saudi Consulate.
Another person briefed on the matter, speaking on condition of anonymity to disclose confidential details, told The Times on Saturday that Turkish intelligence had obtained a video of the killing, made by the Saudis to prove that it had occurred.

A commentator close to Mr. Erdogan’s government said so publicly on Tuesday.

“There is a video of the moment of him being killed,” Kemal Ozturk, a columnist in a pro-government newspaper and the former head of a semiofficial news agency, said in an interview on a pro-government television network, citing unnamed security officials.

That Erdogan pushes this 'Pulp Fiction' story is not astonishing. His troops protect Qatar from a Saudi attack and Qatar props up the Turkish economy with multi-billion investments. There is also the old Ottoman versus Arab fight over leadership in the Middle East.

But why would the Saudis kill Khashoggi? Why not drug him, haul him to the airport and fly him back to Riyadh as a "medial emergency"? Why not put him into a big box and transported him as privileged diplomatic baggage? If the Saudis intended to kill Khashoggi they could have hire some guy to shoot him in the streets. It would have been a much simpler operation and way less suspicious.

Killing Khashoggi in the official Consulate makes no sense - unless MbS wanted this current public outrage. Is it a warning to all his enemies? Is it to demonstrate that he can get away with anything?

The Washington Post reports that the U.S. government knew that Khashoggi was in danger:

Before Khashoggi’s disappearance, U.S. intelligence intercepted communications of Saudi officials discussing a plan to capture him, according to a person familiar with the information. The Saudis wanted to lure Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia and lay hands on him there, this person said. It was not clear whether the Saudis intended to arrest and interrogate Khashoggi or to kill him, or if the United States warned Khashoggi that he was a target, this person said.

If U.S. intelligence knew of the danger to Khashoggi Intelligence Community Directive 191 - Duty to Warn (pdf) would have applied:

An IC element that collects or acquires credible and specific information indicating an impending threat of intentional killing, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping directed at a person or group of people (hereafter referred to as intended victim) shall have a duty to warn the intended victim or those responsible for protecting the intended victim, as appropriate. This includes threats where the target is an institution, place of business, structure, or location. The term intended victim includes both U.S. persons, as defined in EO 12333, Section 3.5(k), and non-U.S. persons.

Read plainly ICD 191 provides that the U.S. intelligence services had to warn Khashoggi of the Saudi threat. Did they do so or not?

There are a few exceptions in the directive that allow to withhold a warning. If the information came through a friendly intelligence service the protection of sources and methods has priority over a warning (point E.3.e. in the regulation.)

If U.S. intelligence acquired the information through the British GHCQ, a warning to Khashoggi might have revealed that the GHCQ has bugged all those Cisco telephones the Saudi royals so proudly display. But there was little danger that a warning to Khashoggi would have revealed anything. The Saudis will surely expect that the U.S., British and other intelligence services listen to even their private communications.

There may have been other reasons to withhold a warning. Trump's son in law and senior aid Jared Kushner has good personal relations with MbS. In March The Intercept reported that, according to MbS, Kushner revealed U.S. intelligence about MbS' enemies to him.

[A]fter the meeting, Crown Prince Mohammed told confidants that Kushner had discussed the names of Saudis disloyal to the crown prince, according to three sources who have been in contact with members of the Saudi and Emirati royal families since the crackdown.

The meeting took place in late October 2017. About a week later the Saudi clown prince incarcerated hundreds of his rich relatives and other Saudi billionaires in the Ritz hotel in Riyadh and pressured them to hand over their assets.

Kushner had obviously no qualms to rat out the people who privately criticized MbS.

(In February 2018 Kushner lost access to top level security briefings because his interim security clearance was revoked. This may have been the deep state's revenge for his indiscretion. Kushner finally passed full clearance and regained access in May.)

Not to warn Khashoggi might well have been a White House decision. It is the Trump's administration policy to not challenge its allies over human rights issues. The State Department even produced a memo explaining that human rights criticism only applies to U.S. 'enemies'.

If the Saudis want to nab Khashoggi, the White House might have thought, why no let them have him?

Trump's foreign policy depends on good relations with the Saudis:

The Trump administration, from the president on down, is heavily invested in the Saudi relationship. Robin Wright, a scholar at the Wilson Center think tank and close friend of the missing writer, said that’s unlikely to change. The administration’s Middle East agenda heavily depends on the Saudis, including efforts to counter Iranian influence in the region, fight extremism and build support for its yet-to-be-released plan for peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

The Turkish and Qatari rulers and their media do their best to propagandize the case and to rage against the Saudi regime. The Washington Post, for which Khashoggi wrote, will surely not let go of the issue. Other 'western' media and journalists are also enraged about the case. Khashoggi was one of them, aristocratic elite as they see themselves, who do not deserve such fate.

Can MbS and the Trump regime really sit back and not reply to demands of serious consequences over the case?

That may well be. After all, no one is challenging the U.S.-Saudis alliance over the daily murder it commits in Yemen and elsewhere. If the Saudis kidnapped Khashoggi, and provide evidence that he is alive, the media outrage will soon die down. If the Turkish government publishes the video of the murder that it claims to have, it will only take a bit longer until other news moves the case from the front pages.

There is no real reason for MbS, or Trump, to care.

Posted by b on October 10, 2018 at 17:02 UTC | Permalink

next page »

Here are some cables that WikiLeaks released showing us how the Saudi royal family tries to control the world's media:

The Saudi Royal Family has bottomless pockets when it comes to controlling the negative press coverage.

Posted by: Sally Snyder | Oct 10 2018 17:12 utc | 1

I hate to agree with your conclusion b, but I see no reason to doubt it. If The clowns can take a non-murder false flag of an ex-spy and turn it into the crime of the century, why couldn't they take an actual murder and turn it into a non-event? They've been murdering Yemenis by the tens of thousands, who will bat an eye over one measly dissident?

Posted by: Don Wiscacho | Oct 10 2018 17:50 utc | 2

I hate to agree with your conclusion b, but I see no reason to doubt it. If The clowns can take a non-murder false flag of an ex-spy and turn it into the crime of the century, why couldn't they take an actual murder and turn it into a non-event? They've been murdering Yemenis by the tens of thousands, who will bat an eye over one measly dissident?

Posted by: Don Wiscacho | Oct 10 2018 17:50 utc | 3

It's ludicrous to invoke that regulation, because - if such a regulation really exists - it would tie the so-called "intelligence community" in knots. Its largest element, the CIA, spends a lot of its time planning anc carrying out "intentional killing, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping". Does that mean it has a legal duty to warn everyone before it does such things?

Posted by: Tom Welsh | Oct 10 2018 17:52 utc | 4

If there is such animosity between the Turks and the Saudis; can you please explain how they got a kidnapped person through airport security? Oh yeah, he's still tied up at the Consul's house -- sure.

That's why the Saudis flew in a top FORENSICS expert with 15 other top elite intelligence guys who subsequently left the scene on two jets. They needed them all just to capture Khashoggi and then all leave with no one to watch over him tied up in the Consul's basement.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 17:52 utc | 5

Pathological killers like Trump and MbS never have remorse over their acts. Tyrants will be Tyrants until a noose around their neck snaps it and tames their behavior.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 10 2018 17:52 utc | 6

Actually the Forensics expert is included in the 15. I guess they used him only to ensure they didn't leave any traces of a kidnapping scene behind.

Of course Trump is okay with it; he's just upset he didn't think of it first!

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 18:01 utc | 7

Circe 4

A pathologist would know how to dismember a corpse, also how to clean the mess and leave no physical evidence.

Saudi has a long tradition to "repatriate" dissidents, even from Switzerland.

Posted by: Charles Michael | Oct 10 2018 18:04 utc | 8

I vaguely remember Trump promising to drain the swamp and bring down the deep state. Judging from the anti-Trump media hysteria, it seems the deep state does not like him and that gives me a little hope he was not lying. Perhaps Trump keeps his friends close but his enemies even closer? He may be luring the clueless clown prince in just the right position to throw him under the bus, US neocon regime-change style.

Posted by: Joost | Oct 10 2018 18:09 utc | 9

KHASHOGGI'S DEAD and they did a thorough job. The only clue left that he was present in the Consul's house is dust if they even left a speck of him behind. You can take that to the bank.

Now why would they hold a kidnap victim in a house on foreign soil and then all take off on two planes with separate routes? They surely didn't get him through airport security even in pieces!

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 18:10 utc | 10

IDC-191.......what a joke. If they didn’t warn 3000 innocent people in twin towers of their impending doom to achieve their Pearl Harbor event,you think they would think twice about letting this go to achieve another?

These are disgusting times we are living at. Mafia rules and killings moved from the streets right to the Oval Office and client kingdoms.

Time to buy a one way ticket out of this filthy country. It is hopeless.

Posted by: Alpi | Oct 10 2018 18:16 utc | 11


Posted by: Alpi | Oct 10 2018 18:17 utc | 12

@8 Joosst

Got swampland too? So you're telling us that Trump has been supplying a gargantuan amount of weaponry to the Saudis, feeding them intelligence, and fueling their jets to go wreak misery and destruction on Yemen all on the U.S. taxpayers dime so he can lure MbS under the bus? More like lure him under the sheets for a neocon tete a tete!

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 18:24 utc | 13

Some action the US can take against the headchoppers: Call Bush out of retirement to kiss their ass again, or Obama to give another bow or have Trump do another sword dance. What the hell, just go out and kill another school bus load of Yemeni babies ..... no one in the US will notice.

Posted by: Ger | Oct 10 2018 18:28 utc | 14


Saudi-Zionist-American operation. And they're all still best friends working together for their common cause.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 18:29 utc | 15

Khashoggi was apparently wearing an Apple Watch, which if synchronized (close to his iPhone that he left with his fiancee) could transmit this info to his phone and provide a clue to his location, heart rate, etc. (if equipped on the correct watch model) to help shed light into his fate.

Khashoggi handed Cengiz his two mobile phones, the fiancee told Reuters. He left instructions that she should call Yasin Aktay, the Erdoğan aide, if he didn’t reappear. Khashoggi was wearing his black Apple Watch, connected to one of the phones, when he entered the building.
“We have determined that it was on him when he walked into the consulate,” the security official said. Investigators are trying to determine what information the watch transmitted. “Intelligence services, the prosecutor’s office and a technology team are working on this. Turkey does not have the watch so we are trying to do it through connected devices,” he said.

Posted by: jsb | Oct 10 2018 18:47 utc | 16

The Saudis did so plainly in view because they can, the Americans cannot drop them, the two countries made a deal decades ago, the Saudis price oil in dollars, the Americans offer an unquestionable protection.

The pricing of oil in dollars is one of the pillars underpinning the reserve status of the US currency which allows an unlimited printing of the stuff, we're talking big money, each year the buyers of the black gold have to find around $9.0tr to purchase it for comparison: (the US GDP stands around $20.0tr).

Posted by: Baron | Oct 10 2018 18:48 utc | 17

@Circe: You may be right. Them SA dudes are wearing the sheets already, they've come prepared. Embrace and conquer could be the strategy though. Like Iraq, Cozy up to some dictator, give him some free chemicals and convince him to try some on those dastardly Kurds, its ok with us, no problem, we are your friends. Then when the world shudders in horror, jump on your democratic high horse while you shout 'lets move in and regime-change the fukker for possession of chemical weapons'.

The Yemen war is an Obama era legacy. He assisted the Saudi's in exchange for support for the Iran deal, and war profits from weapon deals obviously. Now the Iran deal is off the table so I am curious to see what happens to the other side of the deal, not much so far but at least Trump asked SA to pay for the arms.

Posted by: Joost | Oct 10 2018 18:48 utc | 18

It's getting better and better

Posted by: Charles Michael | Oct 10 2018 18:52 utc | 19

Very loosely related, but it just occurred to me. Since Jared Kushner gave MbS a list of his less-than-enthusiastic relatives and he went after them, jailed them, tortured them and plundered them, boy wonder Kushner best hopes that both Trump and MbS will remain in power as long as possible. Because as soon as both are out - in a way or another -, his life might well be forfeit. Pissed off and still billionaire Saudi royals won't forget.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Oct 10 2018 18:53 utc | 20

@17 Oh please, quit with the Trump propaganda already. Trump is all in with these Zionist proxies the Saudis and his Zionist masters.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 18:55 utc | 21

As far as getting the body parts through airport security, all they needed was one person with a dipomatic passport bringing in the boxes with the body parts as priveleged diplomatic luggage (officially, a "diplomatic pouch"), which is exempt from any security or customs inspections. The three body guards of the clown prince surely travel with him, which means that they have the same diplomatic passports as the man whom they protect. They would have been sufficient to channel the charnel through the official formalities.

I agree with the idea that the manner in which it was done was intended to be a warning. If, as reported, the clown prince is spending his nights on his yacht because he is afraid of assassination attempts, he is, to say the least, apprehensive and might feel the need to flex his muscles. This murder would be discreet and dramatic and terrifying at all once. There are surely, among those whom he locked up in the hotel and tortured, persons (or their next of kin) whose capacity for reprisal is considerable.

To take it a bit further... his country is in a bad way. The hotel hoist did not produce nearly as much booty as expected. The great captial infusion that the Aramco stock offering was to bring in fizzled because Aramco could not be listed on the New York stock exchange because it refused to reveal its assets (what is supposed to be behind the stock valuation), to wit its proven reserves. They are laregely exhausted.

I should refer you to Matthew Simmons' book "Twilight in the Desert: The Coming Saudi Oil Shock and the World Edconomy". Simmons was an oil geologist who worked over there and saw how they were desperately trying the wring every last drop out of the oil wells as they pumped them dry. He also analyzed over 200 peer-reviewed monographs about dealing with the challenges of wringing out those last drops and getting oil out of obscure pockets.

The assault on Yemen is a war over the oil in the Empty Quarter, the southern area of Saudi Arabia, so desolate that an exact border between the Kingdom and Yemen was never surveyed and properly established. It was only recently that, in desperation, the Saudis began exploring there and discovered huge amounts of oil, most of it on the Yemeni side, no matter how one draws the border. Its acquisition was supposed to be another "slam dunk" or "cake walk" (take your pick), but, as we see, the Yemenis are turning out to be a hard nut to crack. That oil would allow Aramco to post assets commensurate with the stock market capitalization it hopes to achieve, but it is proving elusive.

In the meantime, Yemen is being destroyed, its people murdered wholesale, the clown prince's great 2030 transformation is on hold, the Kingdom's population is continuing to grow (the fastest growth rate in the world, as I remember), and its disaffected youth who are not looking for new thrills besides drugs, pinball machines and fast cars are in search of some sort of meaning behind the mindlessness of the consumer society. Wahabite extremism thus looks attractive for more and more of them.

Stay tuned.

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 10 2018 19:03 utc | 22

Whenever I read an article on foreign affairs in the WaPo, the first thing that comes to my mind is "this is what the CIA wants us to believe." In this case, the CIA wants us to believe that the intelligence community knew of the operation but that the Trump administration refused to act which is consistent with WaPo's strategy of throwing shade on Trump. Of course, a Trump denial would not be believed. Who knows what the truth is?

Posted by: TheBAG | Oct 10 2018 19:07 utc | 23

Being a bit cynical, if the "Intelligence" agencies knew what was going to happen to Khashogii, they expected it to work. So that they could then use their knowledge as blackmail for MbS. Particularly if the video "fell" into their hands afterwards. That his fiancee was outside waiting, with one of his two watches in hand was probably not in the plan.

Posted by: stonebird | Oct 10 2018 19:28 utc | 24

If there is a warning in any of this, it’s that crossing the Saudis is dangerous to anyone, perhaps even including Javanka. Or someone like them. Other reporters, perhaps. (h/t Clueless Joe @19.)

Consulate premises are presumably protected under the Vienna Convention, right? The Saudis are acting benevolent as they allow searches.

So the Wapo aristocratic deep-staters are mourning the loss of one who crossed Saudistan, yet their job has been to promote the US-SAUDI-ISRAELI party line all along. May Bezos cry in his tea.

Posted by: Stumpy | Oct 10 2018 19:28 utc | 25

Why is the Sudia Aria not bombed? Why is Israel not bombed ? the both have good relations to the criminal nation of the US.
These wswine and dogs must be eradicated. They bring horror into our world and nothing else

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Oct 10 2018 19:34 utc | 26

There was also a third possibility highlighted, in part, in the article I've posted @15 (according to the Hurriyet), and corroborated by NYT and Sabah.

And investigators are trying to trace a vehicle that left the Saudi consulate at the same time as two cars destined for the airport, one of the officials said. This vehicle didn’t turn towards the airport, but set off in the opposite direction.

And according the the NYT in the article b linked to above:

Two and a half hours after he entered the facility, six vehicles with diplomatic license plates pulled out, carrying 15 Saudi officials and intelligence officers, Sabah reported.

Two other vehicles, including a black Mercedes Vito van with darkened windows, went from the consulate to the consul’s residence about 200 yards away. Turkish employees of the residence had unexpectedly been told not to report for work that day, the newspaper said.

The NYT report is based on this Sabah article:

News channel 24 aired the video, suggesting that Khashoggi was inside of the black Mercedes-Benz Vito, which resembled one parked outside of the consulate when the writer walked in on Oct. 2. The channel said the van then drove some 2 kilometers (1.2 miles) to the consul's home, where it parked inside a garage.

So, it seems plausible that this third vehicle (possibly this black van) carried Khashoggi in whole, possibly incapacitated, or in parts (no pun intended) to the consul's home nearby, either to be dismembered, disposed of, or transferred by other means to KSA or some other undisclosed location.

Posted by: jsb | Oct 10 2018 19:46 utc | 27

"If the information came through a friendly intelligence service the protection of sources and methods has priority over a warning"

If the information came from Turkish intelligence services, this exception would surely apply. And, obviously, Turkey knew quite a lot. Perhaps Turkish intelligence supplied the information knowing that US intelligence would respect their "sources and methods" and not warn Khashoggi. The end result is that Erdogan looks like a 'good' guy (at least to the sickos in Washington and MSM)and MbS less so. The US (govt) is supporting Saudi attacks on Yemen but do they support KSA against(Turkey's ally) Qatar?

Posted by: wootendw | Oct 10 2018 19:58 utc | 28

".......But why would the Saudis kill Khashoggi? Why not drug him, haul him to the airport and fly him back to Riyadh as a "medial emergency"? Why not put him into a big box and transported him as privileged diplomatic baggage? If the Saudis intended to kill Khashoggi they could have hire some guy to shoot him in the streets. It would have been a much simpler operation and way less suspicious........"

You could certainly say the same about the botched attempted murder of Skripal and the murder of Litvinenko using polonium 210 by the GRU. The "clown" prince may have wanted to send a message (as you suggested) - like Putin. Trump is not ideologically driven. Allies are important, and "real politik" drives his decisions so it would not be a shocker if Trump gives MBS a pass on the murder(?) although I don't believe the MSM is going to just let this one die (so to speak). The Israel-Saudi Arabia-US alliance in opposition to Iranian spreading of its influence is Trump's most consistent and important policy in the Middle East.

Posted by: craigsummers | Oct 10 2018 20:00 utc | 29

Where's the import of Kashoggi?

Aren't all these consulates bugged by their host countries?

Why take the risk of murdering an unimportant fake-critic(!), and run the risk of leaving a video and/or audio trail?

This story as it is now is nonsensical.

Posted by: bjd | Oct 10 2018 20:07 utc | 30


Poor-poor innocent Trump is at the mercy of a left-wing conspiracy; always the innocent victim ACCORDING to you and a few others here.

Like Trump cares a journalist who went rogue was cut up in pieces by Trump Saudi friends who he's helping destroy Yemen! Look up every video where Trump is slobbering praise on MbS. He's so innocent, poor thing...blech.

And I don't even like Wapo. Americans, always fighting over who's soul is more corrupt when the entire system is rotten to the core. Wapo, WSJ, Trump, Clinton...same difference. To defend one over the other is to defend the indefensible, always.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 20:07 utc | 31


They probably swept the place for bugs and took whatever video there was with them or disabled the system. The Mossad conducts operations despite airport and camera surveillance where they conduct them. It means nothing except that the mission was important enough to the Saudis to assume certain risk. I still think there's more going on here in regards to motive and complicity.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 20:20 utc | 32

Nice of craigsummers to drop another steaming turd in the punchbowl.

Posted by: SlapHappy | Oct 10 2018 20:21 utc | 33

Nice distraction from Yemen

Perhaps a not so subtle warning to journalists who want to criticize US-Saudi operations in Yemen.

Much like anthrax silenced those who might be critical of the official US-Saudi official story of 9-11

Turkey seems too interested in the fate of a Saudi national. Whats in it for Erdogan? Distraction from the economy? Cooperation in return for some payoff?

Posted by: Pft | Oct 10 2018 20:34 utc | 34

The Saudi's lured Hariri to KSA, most likely with Trump blessings, and held him without caring what any other country thought. Perhaps this is supposed to be a warning to MBS and Trump's enemies that KSA, like Israel can do as they please without regard to international law, though MBS is is completely controlled by Trump.
How long does MBS last now without Trump protection. I think less than two weeks.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 10 2018 20:40 utc | 35

why would saudis whack someone IN an embassy? have they ever done so before? has anyone?any proof he was killed there? or killed at all by saudis?

'It is beyond doubt that the Saudi government abducted, or killed, the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. '

OR? so noone knows if he was killed or not...all that can be said is he is Missing

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 21:04 utc | 36

Nice of craigsummers to drop another steaming turd in the punchbowl.

Posted by: SlapHappy | Oct 10, 2018 4:21:41 PM | 32

Yeah, this site really deserves a better level of paid shill trolling the boards here. Its like they are not even trying.

Posted by: MadMax2 | Oct 10 2018 21:09 utc | 37

@ 21 (RJPJR)
From a bit of a Conspiracy POV I was always curious about the sudden untimely death of Mr Simmons in his hottub. He was speaking out at the time on "peak oil" - I'm sure the guys at ARAMCO and KSA in general wanted him gone.

Twilight in the Desert - indeed. Some interesting comments in the reviews:

Mathew was a useful contributor to The Oil Drum.

Posted by: DAVID POWELL | Oct 10 2018 21:21 utc | 38


MbS...less than two weeks? I'll start my stop watch and get back to you...ain't gonna happen.


Okay, so all employees at consulate and consul's home told to take a day off, two jets fly 15 Saudis into Turkey, including high-level intelligence, MbS security and a top Forensics expert, cctv videotape missing, black van with opaque windows waiting 2 hours for something in back of consulate then goes to consul's home and the squad leave on same planes to Riyadh via two different cities.

All that for what exactly?

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 21:29 utc | 39

yes the story is nonsensical. People are running with it as it suits prejudices

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 21:44 utc | 40

youve a future in hollywood as a thriller scriptwriter.

now if i wanted someone dead or disappeared, id do it away from where i was to deflect blame.
and id not use hit men from my own country.
This is a lot like Skripal hoax story

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 21:46 utc | 41

Its interesting but according to CPJ at least 73 journalists were jailed in relation to their work in Turkey as of last December

Posted by: Pft | Oct 10 2018 21:57 utc | 42

It looks to me as a clear warning to those western prime ministers,politicians and news media that are controlled by KSA to not interfere in Saudi politics,and not being critical of its representants in international organisms.Is there any other country in the world that is so obviously a dictature,the land itself being the property of the ruling tribe,any other country where a prince future king can tie up hundreds of the richest men of the country in order to skin them of billions of dollars,without even raising those journalists' and politicians'eyebrows who regularly suffer heartattacks and insomnia over the slightest "faux pas" or non-conform utterance of types like Trump.
Because Saudi money and funding is all over the place,they know they can get away with evrything they come up with.For instance they ,a country without a constution,no elections, were part of the "Small Group" to get a democratic process going in Syria.Nobody asks the right questions these days.

I verified "Le Monde".Well,normally blowing from the highest top when journalists lives are in danger or have been killed,the don't seem to show much interest,and ,as seen before in ambiguous geopolitical situations the have a tendancy to stall a few days,maybe waiting for some narrative guidelines by the Counsel on Foreign Relations and other bilderbergers.After the failed coup d'état against Erdogan they did the same thing.

The thing that puzzles me is,why do they need 15 men to do such a job?Could it be that they improvised a trial?Or an interrogation,one should look up the profiles of those men.

Posted by: willie | Oct 10 2018 21:57 utc | 43

Another thought: Is Khashoggi worth mourning given he essentially was a Daesh promoter and abettor? Just how was he different from any other headchopper? Personally, I shed no tears that he's likely been made into a trinket for MbS.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 10 2018 21:57 utc | 44

Willie @42--

"why do they need 15 men?"

Training exercise, IMO, to be employed later.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 10 2018 22:04 utc | 45

Posted by: Circe @38:

Also do not forget that Khashoggi first entered the consulate four days earlier without an appointment (Friday Sept 28) **see my original Hurriyet link @15** and was told to check back early the following week. And lo and behold the Saudis flew in to Istanbul that Monday, although at separate times. Coincidence?

visited the consulate without an appointment on Friday, Sept 28. Cengiz waited outside. That first meeting went smoothly. Khashoggi told Cengiz and several friends that officials in the consulate had treated him politely. They explained the paperwork would take time to prepare.

Khashoggi exchanged phone numbers with a consulate official named Sultan so he could call and check on progress, according to three friends. Sultan said the document would be ready early the following week. Reuters has not been able to locate Sultan or confirm his role at the consulate. The consul declined to comment on who Khashoggi spoke to.

“He came out smiling. He told me ‘inshallah (God willing) I will receive this paper after I come back from London,’” Cengiz said.


Khashoggi flew back to Istanbul from London on Monday evening, Oct 1. The following morning, he spoke again with consul worker Sultan, who told him to collect the document at 1 p.m the same day.

And according to this source:

The American daily obtained a photograph taken from a Turkish police closed-circuit television (CCTV) camera outside the residence of the Saudi consul general, Mohammed al-Otaibi, located less than 500 meters from the consulate.

It shows a Mercedes Vito van with tinted windows, which is believed to have transported some of the Saudi suspects from the consulate to Otaibi’s residence about two hours after Khashoggi had entered the diplomatic mission.


Meanwhile, The Guardian reported that security camera footage had been removed from the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, and the Turkish staff had been abruptly told to take a holiday on the day Khashoggi vanished.

Turkish investigators believe the CCTV footage from inside the consulate was onboard the two corporate jets that took the Saudi suspects back to Riyadh.

A reporter with the Yeni Safak daily said on Wednesday that Turkey’s National Security Service had footage showing Khashoggi’s entrance into the Saudi consulate and his murder.

These films , he added, would be released by the Anadolu news agency.

Posted by: jsb | Oct 10 2018 22:05 utc | 46

'Anonymous Turkish sources assert that Khashoggi was killed, his body cut to pieces and taken away.'

fake news of the grand guignol type

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 22:07 utc | 47

One curious aspect of the Khashoggi disappearance is that British news media seem rather disinterested in the whole affair.

At the same time, they are talking up Bellingcat / The Insider Russia's discovery of "Dr Alexander Mishkin" as the supposed military doctor, carrying a Novichok antidote (atropine), who accompanied Ruslan Boshirov / "Anatoly Chepiga" on his mission to smear the doorknob of the front door of Sergei Skripal's house in Salisbury in March this year.

Interesting that Wikileaks is drawing comparisons between the apathy being shown over Khashoggi's disappearance by the UK media and the fuss they made over Arkady Babchenko's faked murder in five months ago. As JudaZ referenced at the link says, it surely must be because no-one as yet has found a way to blame the Russian President for Jamal Khashoggi's walk into a black hole.

Also thanks to JSB @ 15 for providing that Hurriyet Daily News link because the article cleared up the confusion some MoA commenters over why Khashoggi had to go to the Saudi embassy in Istanbul to get his divorce papers in order: he had divorced his wife earlier and was planning to marry Hatice Cengiz in Istanbul, but Turkish law required him to have a document proving his divorce and this is why he needed to go to the Saudi embassy, to get this documentation. The article also states why he did not go to the Saudi embassy in Washington DC, even though his instinct must have told him that was the better place to go to. His instinct could have been right.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 10 2018 22:12 utc | 48

Maybe the Saudis kidnapped Khashoggi on behalf of the US so as to exchange him for Andrew Brunson who is being held by Turkey. Apparently his fiancee has some connections close to Erdogan

There is no evidence he was killed and no reason for the Saudis to kill him in this fashion.

Posted by: Pft | Oct 10 2018 22:17 utc | 49


That's you. The Mossad use their own hit men. So what are you? The smartest guy in the room, or someone with an agenda to deflect from the truth.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 22:18 utc | 50

Also found this video from a private Turkish TV channel on of Khashoggi entering the consulate and a black van leaving the building shortly afterwards.

This may be valuable information as The Guardian is now reporting that CCTV footage inside the Saudi consulate has been removed and Turkish consulate staff were told to take a day off on the day Khashoggi disappeared.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 10 2018 22:22 utc | 51


I meant to say Israelis use hit men from their own country, the Mossad, except sometimes inside Iran when they used the MEK. The U.S. uses Americans, CIA. North Korea used two NK women to off Kim's brother.

Do you even know what you're saying? It's done all the time.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 22:35 utc | 52

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10, 2018 6:18:12 PM | 49

the smartest guy in this room and the least gullible....when a body turns up IN an embassy then u can claim he she ws whacked there

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 22:57 utc | 53

First: it is possible that Saudis had no intent to kill Kashooggi. They were going to pressure him to come back to Saudi Arabia. As he refused or resisted, they may have actually killed him accidentally.

Second: Kashooggi's fate will resonate within Saudi Arabia and either like sheeps no one will seek revenge or there will be plots to kill MBS

Third: Erdogan with Qatar's pressures will not let go as he wants to blackmail Saudi Arabia in stopping the boycott of Qatar

Fourth: The killing of Kashooggi may have been commited by a Yemeni (agent) kamikaze inside the consulate. Kashoogi has been in favor of the murderous Yemen war and is hated by yemenis.

I think that is the most plausible scenario the Saudis will use to implicate .... Iran

Posted by: Virgile | Oct 10 2018 22:58 utc | 54

As Khashoggi was an IS supporter, IS will revenge his murder. Already I read on RT that IS seized chlorine canisters in attack on Al-Nusra & White Helmets.

Posted by: Peter Schmidt | Oct 10 2018 23:00 utc | 55

Posted by: Jen | Oct 10, 2018 6:22:22 PM | 50

disappearing CCTV footage recalls 2006 london..only its still: 'trust me' journalism... not :'heres the body in the embassy' journalism

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 23:02 utc | 56

I meant to say Israelis use hit men from their own country, the Mossad, except sometimes inside Iran when they used the MEK. The U.S. uses Americans, CIA. North Korea used two NK women to off Kim's brother.

Do you even know what you're saying? It's done all the time.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10, 2018 6:35:35 PM | 51

what else have u got wrong?

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 23:03 utc | 57

where have people been killed INSIDE embassies?

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 23:03 utc | 58

As Khashoggi was an IS supporter, IS will revenge his murder. Already I read on RT that IS seized chlorine canisters in attack on Al-Nusra & White Helmets.

Posted by: Peter Schmidt | Oct 10, 2018 7:00:43 PM | 53

so far this isnt common knowledge...

Posted by: brian | Oct 10 2018 23:06 utc | 59


LOL! You're the smartest according to YOU! The body won't turn up because a forensics expert was part of the team to ensure there's no trace of it left to turn up.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 23:09 utc | 60

@36 Clearly they get what they pay for.

Posted by: Ash | Oct 10 2018 23:10 utc | 61

Sorry to be off topic again but I was listening to Billie Holiday and Strange Fruit- a song about lynchings. I
wrote the following:

And the black people could not venture forth after dark. Headlights from pick up trucks with deep engine roars and men in dungarees would pick them out as they maybe happily left a girl they had been dating and ventured forth into the moonlight to return home. Trousers down and almost immediate castration by butcher’s knife amid disgusting insults. Then the slow torture, the burning of flesh by blowlamp or fire, the pounding of flesh by clubs before the obligatory hanging before the towing away as bits of flesh fell off and comingled with the dust.

Posted by: Lochearn | Oct 10 2018 23:13 utc | 62


Thanks for the information about Matthew Simmons. I was entirely unaware of it. Peak oil was eclipsed by fracking, and ever greater technological developments allowing ever more deep water drilling in the seas.

However, the role of Saudi Arabia in regulating the oil market remains a major concern for the United States, regardless of what other sources of oil are found. It is also a major part of what makes S.A. a big-time player.

The exhaustion of S.A.'s Gahwar giant oil field deprives S.A. of this role of market regulator unless the Empty Quarter oil can be brought into production (and that's going to take quite a while, considering the severe desert environment). Without it, S.A. becomes a minor player, and the United States loses a major power lever.

When the sanctions on Iran were announced by the Drumpf administration, it was immediately stated by the mainstream media that the loss of Iranian oil on the international markets would be made up by an increase of S.A.'s production. Yet, there has been no increase. A few intelligent observers, never consulted by the mainstream media commentariat, pointed out that the Kingdom is already at peak production and that there is no longer any elasticity in it.

The exhaustion of S.A.'s reserves and the inability to bring into production the oil in the Empty Quarter is enough in itself to explain what I see as MbS's panic. It is also a good reason to take seriously Bolton's declaration that he and the MeK will be in Teheran next year, setting up a replacement for S.A.'s regulator role.

In the long run, the alternative to using S.A.'s (or Iran's) output to regulate market prices is to use Venezuela's, whose reserves are the largest in the world. Also, the Koch brothers' refineries on the Gulf coast were built to refine the heavy Venezuelan oil, hence the need to move tar sands oil south across the U.S. so that they keep going and the continuing destabilization of Venezuela with another coup d'état likely in the offing.

The oil/energy conflicts are not likely to end any time soon, yet...

The Expert Input to the Talanoa Dialogue was submitted to the United Nations on 1 April 2018. It's been ignored by the IPPC, which is, remember, an intergovernmental, hence POLITICAL, body, notorious for manipulating the science and pushing the best-case scenarios even as almost all of its worst-case scenarios have turned out to be the case, often well ahead of schedule.

I quote: "While supportive of the efforts and proposed commitments to date to reduce emissions of both long- and short-lived greenhouse gases as a means to limit the increase in the global average temperature to no more than 1.5° to 2°C above preindustrial [levels], the scientific and economic evidence that is available makes clear that: ... reducing risks back to levels that society and the environment can accomodate will require bringing the global average temperature back to no more tham 0.5°C above its preindustiral level as rapidly as possible."

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 10 2018 23:16 utc | 63


I didn't get anything wrong. I was elaborating on previous comment. But do you even read English? Ahhh, never mind; I'm sick of your trolling.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10 2018 23:20 utc | 64


Yeah, Oil Drum and apparently Las Vegas mass shooting while MbS was allegedly in Vegas, then Jared who had Top Secret access and reported directly to Nuttybooboo, then the abductions, tortures and ransoms, then failed ARAMCO.

My theory would be this relates to Saudi oil default on the loans, mass dumping not just of US Treasuries, but US Treasuries *held on margin 6:1*, themselves hedged and other words, a Lehman neutron bmob for the two US entitlement systems, SS and MC, which underpinning USTs as Congress'-designated 'buyer of last resort'.

It's Lehman on Steroids, also Halliburton Two, oil roars to $200 or higher, Russia, Iran, Canada and Venezuela suddenly wealthy, billions starving, USArya reeling with tens of millions of seniors robbed of bankrupted MC and SS pensions, collapse of the $650,000 city townhouse developer swindle, real estate sales tax diving, property tax soaring, huddled wretches on every street corner, grocery store shelves empties, lines around the block for $6.50 gasoline, ....why, it's Pope Albertus' Carbon Catholic Wet Dream!!

Khashoggi is worth way more alive than dead. He's being tortured and ransomed with the rest. Bolton has a stiffy.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 10 2018 23:22 utc | 65

Kashooggi talks as an US operative.
Kashoogi is said to oppose the war in Yemen. That is a fantasy. He wants the 'fanatic' Houthis to be crushed and the USA or the French to invade and hand Yemen to the Saudis. The guy accuses Iran to be 'sectarian'
The guy is certainly a big loss for the USA but not to anyone else.

Posted by: Virgile | Oct 10 2018 23:24 utc | 66

Saudi Arabia is a mafia family masquerading as a country!

Posted by: Dick | Oct 10 2018 23:26 utc | 67

Lochern @60--

Billy Holiday was quite a woman and very perceptive. She also wrote God Bless the Child as an explanatory song, somewhat similar to Strange Fruit. Too few know either unless they're Jazz fans, and even fewer know their meaning and context. Your words convey a powerful yet mostly hidden truth--the lynching now replaced by bullets.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 10 2018 23:26 utc | 68

@ karlofi

Thank you very much karlofi. I have always figured you as quite a deep guy. I am just good at sort of language.

Posted by: Lochearn | Oct 10 2018 23:41 utc | 69

Peter Schmidt @53: As Khashoggi was an IS supporter, IS will revenge his murder.

This is my view too. The only logic that I see here in the Khashoggi drama is enticing IS to conduct attacks on Turkey.

If Erdogan is working with Putin, then these are revenge attacks. But if Erdogan is working against Putin, then he needs such attacks to demonstrate that he is NOT working with the 'Assad must go!' Coalition.

And so, this news item is interesting: Erdogan now says that Turkey will stay in Syria until elections are held. Doesn't Turkey's refusal to leave Syria work in favor of the 'Assad must go!' Coalition? Didn't the Putin-Erdogan Sochi Agreement envision renewed operations to liberate Idlib starting December 15th?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 10 2018 23:44 utc | 70

U.S. Intelligence Had A 'Duty To Warn' Khashoggi? Their only duty is to themselves. Phillip Marshall wrote a book called the The Big Bamboozle where, as a 767 pilot and former black ops pilot, he concluded that it was impossible to fly those jets like that based on their training. He went on to connect the dots to the Saudis and the Bush NEOCON clan. His whole family including the family dog was shot dead and the books were all purchased off the market by guess who? It was declared a suicide and murder.

As this fellow Khashoggi was probably under heavy surveillance by multiple intelligence agencies it would have been difficult to hit him in the wild. It is like the old Henny Youngman joke that even my tails have tails. Killing him, carving him up, vacuum sealing the body parts in bags, and splitting them up in multiple diplomatic pouches makes perfect sense.

Whether that happened or not is pure speculation. Maybe the video will hit U Tube someday.

Posted by: dltravers | Oct 10 2018 23:53 utc | 71

Erdogan made that statement just after Syrian Parliamentary elections. So much tosh!

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 10 2018 23:57 utc | 72

@ RJPJR - 61

We could write all night on this, it's the black hole of rabbit holes that sucks in all other rabbit holes. It will take you to the Yemenise Somali basin and KSA's insurgence to plant a Saudi oil flags offshore, why UK and USA are outbidding each other to supply hardware to a (currently) bankrupt regime. Cyprus, Syria, Iran Iraq Iq cetera - its the Elephant and the great game which the west is currently loosing. So operation "Syria" is being relocated.

A personal "By The Way"
If there was a serious action to address the 1.5ºC ceiling issue - CocaCola (and all their copycats) would've been banned and shut down years ago- we'd all be adding coffee to sparkling water in our own kitchens!!! The whole supply chain resources & infrastructure consumed in order to produce canned sugar water is in itself an outrage. The weight of achieving a 1.5ºC ceiling - which in the majority is bourne by the consumer - will never happen. Yes IPCC's a puppet show, and Carbon Tax is about something else alltogether. As we live on a giant spinning perpetual motion machine, there are many ways to achieve "infinite" energy. The main reason we don't have it is with abundant energy money becomes redundant.

Posted by: DAVID POWELL | Oct 11 2018 0:00 utc | 73

So The Senate is calling for the application of the Magnitsky Act in this case, basically sanctions on those in SA deemed responsible. Lot of assets which can be seized in US from all these rich Saudis. Who gets first dibs on the real estate and yachts? Trump?

You know its a Deep State operation when they move so quickly in a bipartisan fashion.

Whats the likely reaction from Saudi Arabia?. Pull out of assets from US and bursting equity/teal estate bubbles, reducing oil production to bump up prices, accepting non USD for oil purchases to crash the dollar, creating hyper inflation and forcing the Fed to expedite interest rate increases?

Stay tuned. Trump Global Fake News Network will be right back

Posted by: Pft | Oct 11 2018 0:13 utc | 74

Meanwhile Donald blames the Fed for today's crash on the DOW. Nothing to do with him slapping sanctions and tariffs on all and sundry.

Posted by: dh | Oct 11 2018 0:31 utc | 75

EXCLUSIVE: Missing journalist is ALIVE and being held captive in Saudi Arabia after being spirited out of Turkey in a private jet, claims source close to the kingdom's royal family

Posted by: Elfy | Oct 11 2018 1:20 utc | 76

The body won't turn up because a forensics expert was part of the team to ensure there's no trace of it left to turn up.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10, 2018 7:09:57 PM | 58 oughta be in movies

Posted by: brian | Oct 11 2018 2:16 utc | 77


Still no evidence. With talk of sanctions over his “alleged” murder his “alleged” well being could be just to negate such an action. If he is alive it should be able to be easily proven. If so negotiations are surely in progress for an exchange

Us sends Gulen to Erdogan, Khashoggi back to his fiance and Bezos WaPo, Brunson to US and Saudis get the go ahead for 200 dollars a barrel oil next year and no sanctions

Posted by: Pft | Oct 11 2018 2:16 utc | 78

Posted by: Circe | Oct 10, 2018 7:20:08 PM | 62

i do read english...make sure you write it!

Posted by: brian | Oct 11 2018 2:25 utc | 79

'Still no evidence. With talk of sanctions over his “alleged” murder his “alleged” well being could be just to negate such an action. If he is alive it should be able to be easily proven. If so negotiations are surely in progress for an exchange'

theres no proof of anything, if hes dead, alive or gone fishing

Posted by: brian | Oct 11 2018 2:25 utc | 80

71 A BTW TOT Response, and Not to Hijack This Not-Dead Khashoggi Thread

Two followups. The US Navy examined whether 'renewable' (sic) fuels (ethanol is energy negative, so this must be biodiesel) would be do-able. At the time I was a Navy contractor, so got to read some of these studies. It turns out the Pentagon would have to burn the entire US soy, canola and sunflower seed oil production to fuel it's fleet and war operations at 800 bases around the globe. We could achieve the 2050 goals simply by dialing the Pentagon down by 15%.

Then in a related study, the value of the sequestered carbon in the 35% of human food simply wasted in the supply chain, exceeds by a full order of magnitude the carbon emitted by the daily commute. We could achieve 2050 carbon sequestration goals simply by burying all the food we know nobody is going to eat. Wait! the greens will shriek. We already bury it! We'll, that's not entirely true. We let a lot of it rot. We convert a lot of it to 'hydrolyzed vegetable protein' then feed it to our pets and our children. If we just buried all agricultural waste and all waste food and all treated sewage, and let the carbon be re-sequestered by next year's crops, again and again. if we just did what soil science tells us we must do, or lose the tilth our lives depend on, if we just plowed our waste food back into the earth, we could meet the 2050 goals, in a single year.

But we won't. You can't massively tax farmers and garbagemen, and you can't create a supra-governmental Carbon Catholic on Wall Street by plowing waste food and sewage back into the earth, and solving the 'crisis' in a single year. And you sure can't the Pentagon!

Thom Hartmann on his 'Liberal' (sic) radio show tipped his Deep State Carbon Catholic hand today, demanding a $400 a ton Federal carbon tax!! For what? For what, Thom? Any tax is illegal unless it provides something to its citizens.
Most Federal taxes provide nothing in return! A carbon tax provides nothing but governmental regulation, religious hysteria and lip service! Where will those $100B's of our last life savings disappear to?! To the same Federal lock box where Trump's 25% trade tax is disappearing.

A giant Corporate:State slush Fund!

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 11 2018 3:00 utc | 81

I've nothing directly relevant to add to this intriguing thread. However, it does seem that the president of China has gone missing.

CBS News -- October 6, 2018 -- Interpol asks China for information on its missing president

PARIS -- Interpol has made a formal request to China for information about its missing Chinese president who seemingly vanished on a trip home. The agency said in a statement it "looks forward to an official response from China's authorities to address concerns over the president's well-being."

Posted by: blues | Oct 11 2018 3:03 utc | 82

thats how public misinformation begins

' president of China has gone missing.'

you mean president of INTERPOL whos chinese

Posted by: brian | Oct 11 2018 3:11 utc | 83

=>> brian | Oct 10, 2018 11:11:06 PM | 81

Duh. Yeah it looks like you're correct.

I wonder why they wrote it that way. It wouldn't appear to serve well as propaganda. Probably the editors are on cocaine. (WTF?)

Posted by: blues | Oct 11 2018 3:42 utc | 84

I will now look forward to Eliot Higgins letting his Bellingcat "collaborators" loose on all this juicy open-source data...

… oh, yeah, sorry, I forgot.

Higgins doesn't "do" anything that would cast a bad light on a Western ally... my bad...

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Oct 11 2018 3:55 utc | 85

"Turkish intelligence had obtained a video of the killing, made by the Saudis to prove that it had occurred"

I am (slightly) curious about that proposition: why video the murder to "prove it occurred" when they take a severed head with them back to Saudi Arabia?

Isn't that proof enough?

Man, aren't some people hard to please...

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Oct 11 2018 4:01 utc | 86

"Another thought: Is Khashoggi worth mourning given he essentially was a Daesh promoter and abettor? Just how was he different from any other headchopper? Personally, I shed no tears that he's likely been made into a trinket for MbS."

I dunno what to say to this without feeling a bit hypocritical, when I was a young fella I earnestly believed that 'fighting the good fight' as I thought we were doing was the most important element of fixing the world.
Without going into too many details, and yes anecdotal evidence is meaningless - except for the reality that most humans make most decisions on what they have seen and how they 'feel' about stuff, I had gone overseas in the hope of joining an effort to stymy the growth of imperialism. After what I considered back then an inordinately long time wandering around a town whose outlying regions were part of the struggle with indigenous populations being forced to 'modernise' at the behest of a central government comprised of toadies to amerika, I eventually hooked up with a group who were resisting.

What we mostly did was get assistance to communities that were being pressured to allow the encroachment of the central government.
Most of us had ancient weapons but really they were more for show than go. There was no help from any of the at the time socialist states - no ak's for us, just ancient carbines of ww2 vintage.
Three members of our group were waylaid by the central government's special forces under the control of amerikan advisors. They were executed on the spot and left to be found to 'send a message'.
I had a couple of comrades I had gotten close to as they had pretty good english skills when most of the indigenous population did not. They were really upset at what had happened - one of those murdered was a relation of one of them.
We wanted revenge and we got it, caught the 'team' out on patrol, killed a mob of em including one 'advisor'.

Everybody happy. Until the village my comrades came from was literally wiped off the map. It was close to the regional center which is why many from the village had joined us as they were watching their culture, traditions even their language get wiped out. AFAIK everyone in the village was killed in payback for our payback.

Now we wanted real revenge, until the group's leader, an old fella who had worked at the local college turned up and asked what we thought the end of going after all the central government troops and amerikan mercs would be? We said, "easy we win"

He got pretty heated - had no idea what about other than he was shouting, & I had never seen the bloke angry. I asked a comrade with some english why the boss was upset - the leader had told us that even if we could get enough support to be able to take on the entire central government plus imperial assistance and actually succeed - which was a real long shot, we would still have lost because we'd become that which we were fighting.

The group was told to pull its head in and get back to assisting the people. We were really angry at the time and I shot through soon after - now I recognize if we had upped the ante I would have died or worse there, and little or anything in terms of central government takeover would have changed. But many of the language groups that had been endangered still survive today thanks to work done by our group & others like it to make sure they did.

Put simply if we all give up our humanity - which includes caring about any human who has been butchered as cruelly as Kashoggi was, we may as well surrender now - nothing can hope to change for the better.

Yes Kashoggi said and wrote things that showed bugger all humanity inside him - so what? Should our response be to prove the Kashoggis are correct in their description of all of us who oppose the slaughter in Yemen, that we are butcher murderers and/or supporters of butchery and murder in league with apostates traitors or whatever?

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 11 2018 4:06 utc | 87


That title is misleading, sensational bullshet. First of all the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S. already stated that Khashoggi was neither k.illed nor detained by Saudi authorities and such claims are baseless. Second, if it were true, please explain how they slipped him past airport Security? Third, if he was detained they'd produce a real live video to appease world condemnation. The story's a red herring to confuse everyone and there's nothing new in that article.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 11 2018 5:43 utc | 88

@85 Debsisdead

I agree with the principle you dedicated your story to telling: "we would still have lost because we'd become that which we were fighting."

The Buddha said the same. He said that no anger or violence could be defeated with anger or violence. But this was not a "moral" valuation of things. This was an instruction based on what works and what doesn't work. We can struggle against this truth all we want, but the Buddha himself advised us that this was a law of the universe that could not be violated and result in success.

If we become what the enemy is, then the enemy has won. And the enemy is originally tricked into being that way only in order to draw others down into that same way of being. For it is what the enemy IS, that is the true enemy.

So it's a wonderful point you make, Debsisdead, and it carries the endorsement not only of our wisdom teachings but also our own individual wisdom, that has long suspected this to be true.

And thus it is, that a direct response or frontal attack against the enemy often may not be as good as simply remaining true to principle and simply going around.


Let us be clear, however, that none of this speaks of non-action against the bad guys. Sometimes they simply have to be stopped, and even the Buddha in one of his stories showed us that this can be done both compassionately and decisively.

It's important to note the distinction that, not becoming like the enemy does not preclude destroying the enmity, or even the enemy.

But these are advanced choices, and wisdom is called for, lest we err.

Posted by: Grieved | Oct 11 2018 6:07 utc | 89

@58 "The body won't turn up because a forensics expert was part of the team to ensure there's no trace of it left to turn up."

The story I've just read suggest that the Saudi's forgot that the drains don't stop at the consulate boundaries, and that this would be the first place the Turkish authorities would check if they suspected foul play.

Quite a bit of blood in the human body, apparently....

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Oct 11 2018 7:02 utc | 90

The Trump government will either create a fake story to cover up the murder of Khashoggi or it will just keep quiet.

Compare this to the US government raising hell against China over the arrest and imprisonment of Liu XiaoBo. Even the

medical care given to LXB was criticised.

US hypocrisy is incomparable.

Posted by: chan pooi hoong | Oct 11 2018 7:19 utc | 91

They are already changing the story - like with this Skripal-hoax:
First fiancee Hatice Cengiz waited for Khashoggi UNTIL MIDNIGHT in front of the consulate - and now this all is changed. See my comment:

Posted by: Joerg | Oct 11 2018 7:32 utc | 92

Posted by: Joost | Oct 10, 2018 2:48:45 PM | 17

The Yemen war is an Obama era legacy.

Mm hm. Just like Obama "inherited" Bush's wars and therefore somehow couldn't end them, so Trump now inherits Obama's wars and somehow can't end them. And round and round it goes.

We see how toxic the partisans of both halves of the Corporate One-Party are, and how one hand always washes the other.

Posted by: Russ | Oct 11 2018 9:11 utc | 93

Posted by: Circe | Oct 11, 2018 1:43:52 AM | 86

please explain how they slipped him past airport Security

It certainly can be done. I don't recall exactly how the Zionists smuggled Eichmann out of Argentina, but they did it.

Posted by: Russ | Oct 11 2018 9:13 utc | 94

"The assault on Yemen is a war over the oil in the Empty Quarter" said someone above
Very true. Same for the kidnappings that ruined the tourist industry back then before 9/11. Sponsored by KSA. Then after the Twin Towers, no more need, no more tourists whatsoever and enough anti-Western excitment among the tribes.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 11 2018 9:24 utc | 95

i wonder if Erdogan is waiting for Trump and co to commit to a big lie about this case and then use the video to either embarrass them or as leverage for easing pressure on Turkey's financial woes... might we soon see a sudden surge in appetite for Turkish Lira in global markets..?

Posted by: EtTuBrute | Oct 11 2018 11:09 utc | 96

The Daily Beast is reporting that Trump will not cut off arms sales to Saudi Arabia because of the Khashoggi disappearence ( via @thedailybeast):

"..........Trump said he has a call arranged with Khashoggi’s fiancée, who has appealed to the president for help. But Trump indicated he will not be blocking arms sales to the kingdom, eliminating a possible punitive measure. The president told Fox News on Wednesday night: “I think that would be hurting us. We have jobs, we have a lot of things happening in this country.” He went on: “I think that that would be a very, very tough pill to swallow for our country. I mean, you’re affecting us and, you know, they’re always quick to jump that way.”........"

Trump's foreign policy appears to be similar to China's (ideal) policy of non-interference in the internal affairs of countries they do business with (like Sudan during the Darfur genocide). Of course, with Trump that "ideal" only applies to allies.

Posted by: craigsummers | Oct 11 2018 11:24 utc | 97

But if Kashoggi reappears the Saudis seem exonerated and no one is watching Yemen.

Posted by: joe b | Oct 11 2018 12:24 utc | 99

The Saudis categorically denied they k.illed or detained Khashoggi although all signs point to the fact that the got rid of him in the most brutal way. This ambivalence gives Trump a way out not to impose sanctions. That's why they probably got rid of every speck of proof, although someone mentioned checking the drain system. Trump is definitely not in a rush to get at the truth. If Iran had done this; there would be he'll to pay right away.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 11 2018 12:41 utc | 100

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