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October 21, 2018

The MoA Week In Review - OT 2018-55

Last week's posts on Moon of Alabama:

The first Saudi version of the Khashoggi murder proved to be too weak. We are thus given another on, which isn't any better.

The Turks do not seem satisfied with either story. There have been no signs that a deal has been closed. The French and German governments demand better explanations. While Trump would like to bury the issue, Congress seems willing to push it. Trump is angry with Jared Kushner who has been moved away from the case. The Wall Street Journal reports that MbS is enraged about the reaction his misdeed caused. He simply doesn't understand it. There is also this nugget that seems to confirm that the claimed tape of the incident actually exists:

Prince Khalid al Faisal, an envoy of King Salman who was dispatched to Ankara earlier this month, had access to a short audio recording that offers evidence that Mr. Khashoggi was drugged, killed and dismembered minutes after walking into the consulate, these two [Saudi royals] say.

The Washington Post reported that the CIA also listened to the tape.

All the above are signs that issue will stay alive and will have further consequences.

Use as open thread ...

Posted by b on October 21, 2018 at 08:30 AM | Permalink

Comments
next page »

Well hopefully we can get pass the khashoggi thingy and get back why the fuck is the house of saud bombing Yemen.Then why is Amerika even still in business?

Thanks b

Posted by: jo6pac | Oct 21, 2018 8:39:08 AM | 1

The UK will most likely crash out of the EU. Of course, one can’t exclude that some last minute holding action, temp. solution, or reversal can be found - but I doubt it.

Northern Ireland will break away. The analysis of the vote has been very poor, and based on an ‘identity politics’ and slice-n-dice views. Pensioners afraid to lose their pension, deplorables, victims of austerity, lack of young voter turnout, etc.

NI and Scotland are ruled by a tri-partite scheme: ‘home rule’, ‘devolution’ - Westminster - and the EU. The two peripheral entities prefer belonging to and participating in the larger group (see also! reasons historical and of enmity etc.) which has on the whole been good for them. England prefers a return to some mythical sovereignity / nationalism, getting rid of the super-ordinate power, a last desperate stab at Britannia (hm?) rules the waves or at least some bloody thing like traffic on the Thames, labor law, etc. The UK had no business running that referendum - by that I mean that in the UK pol. system Parliament rules supreme, which is antithetical to the referendum approach (in any case the result is only advisory) and running it was a signal of crack-up. By now, it is clear that the UK political / Gvmt. system is not fit for handling problems in the years 2000.

Why NI and not Scotland (which might split as well ..)? From a geo-political pov, because geography bats last - yes. And also because NI is the much weaker entity. EU has stated (Idk about texts etc.): if and when a EU member conquers, annexes, brings into the fold some ‘other’ territory, it then in turn becomes part of the EU. Ex. If Andorra chose to join Spain it would meld into Eurolandia, with time to adjust to all the rules. Perhaps Macron would no longer be a Prince!

However, Catalonia *cannot* be allowed to split from Spain (affecting Spanish integrity and the EU) and if it did it would crash out of the EU, loosing all, so that doesn’t work. Scotland is not Catalonia.… NI has had a special status in many ways for a long time so it is easier to tolerate and imagine alternatives. The EU will pay for NI...

The UK is losing power rapidly and indulging in its own form of ‘re-trenchment’ (different from the Trumpian desired one) - both are nostalgic, but the British one is more suicidal.

The only alternative interpretation I can see (suggested by John Michael Greer) is that the UK is ahead of the curve: a pre-emptive collapse (rather semi-collapse) now would put it in a better position than others 20 years or so hence. That would also include a break-up into parts.

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 21, 2018 8:41:29 AM | 2

Abandoning nuclear treaty is just a diversion to steer away eyes off Khashoggi case, latter being even more important as it wedges in the very depth of an internal US political demise.
UK barks there on Russia to steer its own downfall into spotlight of an importance on a world stage that is close to null. UK didn't even sign anything with Russia as basically nobody else did from within NATO, so one can render that INF as outdated and stale.
Will they come up with a new one that suits all or we will just let it go and slip into unilateral single polarity downfall of West? Answers are coming along real soon.

Right now US and a few vasal allies left are getting into dirty set of strategic games opposing far more skilled opponents and it will come around at a really high price. EU has lost many contracts lately in mid east due to America First, so a lots of sticks in US wheels are coming up. It is going to be a real fun watching all that and reading b. and others on MoA..

Posted by: laserlurk | Oct 21, 2018 9:36:46 AM | 3

@2 Noirette wrote: 'England prefers a return to some mythical sovereignity / nationalism'.

The alternative to sovereignty is dictatorship from abroad. And a foreign dictatorship is never good for a country or its people.

You only need to look at Greece to see the results of 'dictatorship' by the EU. And Italy is currently fighting this dictatorship (see https://gefira.org/en/2018/10/19/the-european-financial-establishment-has-just-declared-war-on-italy/), in order to arrest the continuing destruction of Italy and the impoverishment of its citizens under E.U. rule.

With Brexit, the U.K. is trying to save itself before it collapses to a state similar to Greece.

The E.U., because it is essentially a financially based dictatorship, and is fatally flawed, will break apart. And, in this sense, I agree with you that the U.K. is ahead of the curve.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Oct 21, 2018 9:36:55 AM | 4

"Money Sings and Bullshiite Clings (to the .998)"

In part one we discovered the global world is not what it appears to be, especially to those of us who believe we have it all figured out from wet nursing on the internets. That is, there is an interconnected globalist world for "them" and a multipolar, disconnected, discognitive nationalist world for the rest of "us." And "we" are further subdivided by race, gender, class, sociopolitical and religious biases as taught to us through "their" media.

The ones who control the information flow of the internets use this control to 1. facilitate world trade 2. create even greater wealth for "them" 3. evade taxation of that wealth 4. make even bigger fools out of the rest of "us" who remain year after livelong year stuck glumly online following our favourite "nation/states" as if they are World Cup contenders. When our favourite team wins, so the delusional daydreaming goes, the .998 win too. Rah-rah, go team!

We determined the reason the dollar's acceptance as the international currency is existential, as it has been since time immemorial. The world's financial oligarchs made that determination postwar and placed their bets....in fiat dollars during the 1970s. Changing the international currency system will require a complete re-wiring of that mindset. And for that to happen Hell will first freeze over. After all, currency is merely a medium of exchange and the controlling mindset belongs to those who control the wealth expressed in that medium. It isn't up for popular vote folks. And those .002 controlling are the most conservative people on earth. They exist in every nation on earth but they aren't playing some World Cup game. No, their game is entirely different from ours. Our game is team sports.

The most distracting game player of all time, Donald Gump, is trying his darndest to weaken the dollar and force lower interest rates by doing everything in his power to destabilise global trade...which of course only serves to strengthen the dollar....because any hint of monetary instability for any reason will always be met with a "flight to safety." Whether the flight is in reality "safe" is beside the point. The flight itself is all that matters. The flight itself is the existential reality.

China is onboard out of necessity. Their economy is doldrumic without the US market to sell into. The wealthy Chinese will continue to accept dollar debt notes forever, or so long as they can continue to sell trinkets to USAryans, whichever comes first; Gump's lacklustre trade maneuvres notwithstanding. And the US needs China to keep the consumer culture afloat. This is a pure balancing act but, again, no one of the .002, including those who are of Chinese and Russian descent, will risk any imbalance.

This is Gump's hole card in his silly game of pocket poker.

And whither Russia?

Vladimir now realises what so many other unlucky business partners have.....help out the Don to achieve his greater goals and sooner than later you will be rewarded with a swift kick in the [very manly] groin. Vlad surely thought Gump owed him, too. Lol.

We all owe them both is closer to the truth.

Posted by: donkeytale | Oct 21, 2018 10:15:13 AM | 5

@dh-mtl: True that. Sadly many left wing ppl prefer EU neoliberal anti democratic, corrupt rule over their own souvereign democratic institutions. It was the national state (with its additional regional democratic institutions) that brought us democracy, not the neolibs EU. But that truth hurts, and many prefer empty slogans against the evil national state over a honest analysis.

@B: Inoreader cant find new feeds for some days, something is broken!

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPropaganda | Oct 21, 2018 10:16:20 AM | 6

The recording - it's only still valuable to Turkey if Mohammad Bone Sawman's goons delivered a message to the WaPo stenographer while they were turning him into cold cuts. It would make it impossible to claim the cleaning lady, or some other menial patsy, was the real mastermind. If the recording is just the sounds of Wrestlemania in Arabic, then I doubt there'd still be this much fuss over it. Everyone already knows he died violently.

Posted by: Jesrad | Oct 21, 2018 10:20:41 AM | 7

Check out the Angry Arab on Real news network.
I cannot post link here, silly rules.

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Oct 21, 2018 10:33:07 AM | 8

So the UK g'vment , the US and the Saudi Arabian, and the Israeli all have disqualified themsemslves in a matter of months.
If this carries on I will live to see a better world. :)

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Oct 21, 2018 10:44:03 AM | 9

@ Jesrad 7
Mohammad Bin Sawman!! Bourgogne all over the keyboard, what a mess! :)

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Oct 21, 2018 10:47:30 AM | 10

@6 "Sadly many left wing ppl prefer EU neoliberal anti democratic, corrupt rule over their own souvereign democratic institutions."

I see it more as a neoliberal desire to belong to some vague bigger global entity. Plus the fact that since WW2 nationalism has become equated with fascism.

Britain has never been totally part of Europe....geographically or politically.

Posted by: dh | Oct 21, 2018 10:58:45 AM | 11

donkeytale: Vladimir now realises what so many other unlucky business partners have

donkey continues to flaunt his foul pro-establishment 'tale' as he slyly asserts the Trump-Putin connection that Mueller has failed to prove.

Caitlin Johnston explains better than I can:

Politico Report Says Russiagaters Should Prepare to Kiss My Ass

"Putin's Puppet" Advances Nuclear Missile Escalations Against Putin.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 21, 2018 11:03:05 AM | 12

Hi B. I have a problem with the MoA Feed. It currently does not work for me (all other feeds do). Could you look on it? Most appreciated.
And thanks for all the vital information you deliver.

Posted by: Pnyx | Oct 21, 2018 11:12:09 AM | 13

@11 dh wrote:

"I see it more as a neoliberal desire to belong to some vague bigger global entity. Plus the fact that since WW2 nationalism has become equated with fascism."


Yes, what a beautiful piece of propaganda and mind control, carried out by the people behind this 'vague bigger global entity and facilitated by their 'Mainstream Media', to create this neo-liberal desire.

In reality it is this 'vague bigger global entity' that embodies the essence of fascism - i.e. corporatist-dictatorship.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Oct 21, 2018 11:15:25 AM | 14

Noirette @ 3

Not to worry. Brexit is rather a textbook example of the political/economic dichotomy to which I speak @ 5.

There will be no Brexit in economic or political reality. It isn't even remotely possible, even in the unlikely event the EU collapses in the short term. There may be a pseudo "Brexit" for political face-saving purposes, true, which will consist of a similar sales effort as Trump is making to hold onto his own age-depressed plebes in flyover USArya.

"Brexit is coming! Brexit is coming! Tariffs are easy! Tariffs are easy! Hold on a bit longer, we are just trying to get it right for you little people not to suffer anymore." Lol.

Posted by: donkeytale | Oct 21, 2018 11:17:43 AM | 15

re. Khashoggi, apologies if repeat / no credit - didn't read everything.

b + others have pointed out via the Angry Arab that J. K. was not a KSA “dissident” who fled to free-er climes to wield his brave journalistic pen for some noble causes.

J. K.’s last column evidences the typical WaPo inane rubbish, divorced from reality. Which, btw, doesn’t get anyone killed.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/50470.htm

Sure, MBS is crazy and floating high buzzed on power, self-deluded, as he has been encouraged he might see ‘no limits’, see Jared love (for Israel), Trump glowing orb sword dance (whatever), Yemen war.

J. K’s murder has become a symbol and a cause célébre because it gave the USA power structure/media an opportunity for internal attack, massively directed contra-Trump.

Only the 'Dems' historically made condemnatory noises about KSA - re. 9/11, head chopping gays, women’s status, etc. Recall, Bush held hands, was kissy, with King Abdullah - Roosevelt’s deal with Ibn Saud was upheld.

Below the surface: support for the Muslim Brotherhood (Arab Spring etc.), from Hillary Clinton, McCain, large part of the US powers (rep, dem and indep.) Against the Wahabis: Saudi Royals, Trump, Jared, in cahoots with Israel.

The whole mega-chart of crossed alliances has become so confused nobody knows what is going on, who to support, who to trust to have an impact, what to do, etc.



Posted by: Noirette | Oct 21, 2018 11:22:38 AM | 16

Capitalism is a board game. Like all board games it has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Most people buy the lie that everyone sits down to the game as an even playing field. Not even close. But as long as you can look down on someone less fortunate than yourself you can feel as if you are really in the game. In the beginning the game was crazy fun as resources could be picked up off the ground or poke a straw in the ground and out poured black gold. The middle pretty sweet for a large # of people as it seemed like infinite growth on a finite planet was a slam dunk. Everyone can get rich and live large. The end game, and there has to be one cause who ever heard of a game where the game is over when everybody wins? The end game was written in the the name of the game Capitalism. Thats what capital does, it eats other capital.

Being wealthy means you can buy people. You can even buy a rich person as long as you have more that he does and if he refuses to be brought you can simply end him. The only way to not get bought or ended when you are rich is to either keep getting richer (buy other rich people) or become so inconsequential as to not pose a risk to others wealth which just means you have been bought and ended without getting the money.

Its an ugly game but its the only game in town so we must play it out to the end and its gunna go out with a bang.

Posted by: Jef | Oct 21, 2018 11:27:16 AM | 17

tanks lined up at the border of gaza.readying for genocide.
https://twitter.com/timand2037/status/1054003514735771648

Posted by: occidentosis | Oct 21, 2018 11:55:21 AM | 18

tanks lined up at the border of gaza.readying for genocide.
https://twitter.com/timand2037/status/1054003514735771648

Posted by: occidentosis | Oct 21, 2018 11:56:45 AM | 19

The post WWII order was bound to collapse in time. China has grown into a powerful nation and Russia has moved beyond Marxism into a sort of oligarchical capitalism with echos of what the USA once was during its growth phase. Europe could never be knitted together thru the EU. NATO seems to be doing a far better job of making an alliance of sorts.

Tribes, nations, and languages will not cease to exist. The attempt to knit the European order together was about an economic order ruled by a few un-elected and un-taxed elites. I do believe a new order is rising. The Europeans have has their way toying with the planet for over 500 years. From the Iberian galleons traveling to South America and Africa thru to today Europeans have powerfully manipulated their global colonies directly and indirectly thru the post WWII institutions like BIS, the World Bank, the IMF, and similar institutions.

Some nations, like Britain and the House of Saud, may be seeing the end of the European order on the horizon and are making moves to extricate themselves and realign with the new order coming. The Euro American axis desperately needs Russia to be on board with them to have a chance of long term survival. IF they cannot obtain Russia from the inside out they will attempt it from the outside in thru NATO.

The moves made by Trump and the US seem to signal this theory. Trump is waging economic war with the planet to get them on board with the program but this will only accelerate the decline.

All the Russian bullshit propaganda is so similar to previous military adventures and it scares me. Trump seems to want better relations with Russia but he is constrained. Meanwhile he is imploding China's economy. Trump was screaming about getting better contributions for NATO to strengthen NATO not to weaken NATO. Germany at 1% contribution is ridiculous. He is talking about placing a big NATO base in Poland.

I do not think anything will stem the European American global hegemonic decline other that getting Russia on board. Attempts to do that thru NATO will lead to the mother of all Stalingrads.

Posted by: dltravers | Oct 21, 2018 11:58:02 AM | 20

@17 wrote:

"Being wealthy means you can buy people. You can even buy a rich person as long as you have more that he does and if he refuses to be brought you can simply end him. The only way to not get bought or ended when you are rich is to either keep getting richer (buy other rich people) or become so inconsequential as to not pose a risk to others wealth which just means you have been bought and ended without getting the money."

This is the kind of reality we must face and opens up the whole vista of how power ACTUALLY works not the pro-wrestling version on TV. Thank Jef, I'm trying to get people to see this--my insight comes from being familiar with the criminal "street" and knowing people on Wall Street as well--they are one and the same.

Posted by: Banger | Oct 21, 2018 11:58:02 AM | 21

Noirette @16:

The whole mega-chart of crossed alliances has become so confused nobody knows what is going on, who to support, who to trust to have an impact, what to do, etc.
I feel like that's no accident. But trying to explain why would likely read like a "conspiracy theory" rant.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 21, 2018 11:58:26 AM | 22

Can't post again, clear the cache?

Posted by: dltravers | Oct 21, 2018 12:10:23 PM | 23

Posted by: Jef | Oct 21, 2018 11:27:16 AM | 17

Capitalism is a board game. Like all board games it has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Most people buy the lie that everyone sits down to the game as an even playing field.

No. The name of the game is business. Capitalism is just the most efficient system and method to play that game, i.e. to run a business.
Business was never an even playing field, it was even less free before the era of capitalism. Before capitalism, it was a system called mercantilism in which you did not even have the right to enter the game if you are not a club member. Those clubs were called gilds. There are still some guilds today (in the film industry for example) and the capitalism got less free over time by introduction of cartels, still you are free to open a business.
Today you are free to enter the game, but you can't expect from other players to cut you slack.

Posted by: hopehely | Oct 21, 2018 12:29:58 PM | 24

Trump has no where to go now, the trap has been sprung !! (Kashoggi case) by now he’s feeling the heat ! evedent by his desperate tactic- ending Russia nucular treaty! He’s got no where to run, he’s toast and he’l begin to know it!! The world wide establishment view him as a dirty little upstart (I couldn’t possibly comment) they gave him a chance, he messed up. He can tow there line and there get him to do there dirty work and then there burn him. Or he can fight them and...we’ll...JFK !!!
Like Obarma he now see’s what an insignificant job being a prez is !

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 21, 2018 12:33:08 PM | 25

Particularly recommend al Jazeera and middle east eye for keeping up.

Now a Saudi FM has stepped forward to say how appalled the Saudi leadership is over this rogue operation, MbS entirely innocent, and with the deepest apologies to the Khashoggi mourners.

One of the two high ranking ministers (patsies) arrested, Ahmad al Assiri, a known loyalist to Saudi rulers, tweeted last year: "I don't do anything from my own head without an order. I am an employee and executer to my king and my crown prince."

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/indepth/2018/10/20/a-profile-of-mohammed-bin-salmans-scapegoated-aides

Evidently the 18 arrested will be severely dealt with (and right away so they can't be extradited?) as further layerings in the whitewash . . .

Posted by: Sid2 | Oct 21, 2018 12:35:15 PM | 26

The post WWII order was bound to collapse in time. China has grown into a powerful nation and Russia has moved beyond Marxism into a sort of oligarchical capitalism with echos of what the USA once was during its growth phase. Europe could never be knitted together thru the EU. NATO seems to be doing a far better job of making an alliance of sorts.

Tribes, nations, and languages will not cease to exist. The attempt to knit the European order together was about an economic order ruled by a few un-elected and un-taxed elites. I do believe a new order is rising. The Europeans have has their way toying with the planet for over 500 years. From the Iberian galleons traveling to South America and Africa thru to today Europeans have powerfully manipulated their global colonies directly and indirectly thru the post WWII institutions like BIS, the World Bank, the IMF and similar institutions.

Some nations, like Britain and the House of Saud, may be seeing the end of the European order on the horizon and are making moves to extricate themselves and realign with the new order coming. The Euro American axis desperately needs Russia to be on board with them to have a chance of long term survival. IF they cannot obtain Russia from the inside out they will attempt it from the outside in thru NATO.

The moves made by Trump and the US seem to signal this theory. Trump is waging economic war with the planet to get them on board with the program but this will only accelerate the decline.

All the Russian bullshit propaganda is so similar to previous military adventures it scares me. Trump seems to want better relations with Russia but he is constrained. Meanwhile he is imploding China's economy. Trump was screaming about getting better contributions for NATO to strengthen it not to weaken NATO. Germany at 1% contribution is ridiculous. He is talking about placing a big NATO base in Poland.

I do not think anything will stem the European American global hegemonic decline other that getting Russia on board. Attempts to do that thru NATO will lead to the mother of all Stalingrads.

Posted by: dltravers | Oct 21, 2018 12:36:10 PM | 27

Oh, when'll they ever learn,
Oh, when'll they e----ver learn ?


Its a rigged game...
Head I win,
Tail you loose .

hhehehhe

-----------------


The only way to effect real change is to stop playing along with the rigged system and start waking people up to the lies. As long as Americans believe that the mass media are telling them the truth about their country and their partisan votes are going somewhere useful, the populace whose numbers should give it immense influence is nullified and sedated into a passive ride toward war, ecocide and oppression. If enough of us keep throwing sand in the gears of the lie factory, we can wake the masses up from the oligarchic lullaby they’re being sung.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/50326.htm

Posted by: denk | Oct 21, 2018 12:38:04 PM | 28

dltravers 22

Try to post ONE more time, if still no show,
wait.
most prolly caught in the filter,
wait for b to retrieve.

P.S.
On very rare occasions, it simply get
lost in space. !

Posted by: denk | Oct 21, 2018 12:42:25 PM | 29

Posted by: Jef | Oct 21, 2018 11:27:16 AM | 17

Being wealthy means you can buy people.

Not really. In capitalism you cannot buy people, you can just rent them.
Big difference.
When you buy, it is one time transaction, you are the owner until you sell.
With rent, you must keep paying. The moment you stop, the deal is off.

Posted by: hopehely | Oct 21, 2018 12:48:48 PM | 30

From al Jazeera updates on the case:

Saudi official gives new version of Khashoggi killing

A Saudi official has told the Reuters news agency that the team of 15 Saudis who were sent to confront Khashoggi on October 2 killed him in a chokehold after "overstepping" their orders.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, the official said the team tried to intimidate Khashoggi but when the 59-year-old raised his voice, the team panicked.

They then tried to restrain him and placed him in a chokehold and covered his mouth.

Asked if the team had smothered Khashoggi, the official said: "If you put someone of Jamal's age in this position, he would probably die."

A member of the 15-man-team then dressed in Khashoggi's clothes to make it appear as if he had left the consulate, the official added.

Posted by: Sid2 | Oct 21, 2018 12:54:18 PM | 31

Posted by: DontBelieveEitherPropaganda | Oct 21, 2018 10:16:20 AM | 6

Sadly many left wing ppl prefer EU neoliberal anti democratic, corrupt rule

Yes, and that's why the Brexit is most likely going to be carried out mostly under rightist auspices, because "the left", at least where it comes to the EU, has abdicated what used to be its anti-globalization principles. So in Britain they abandoned the battlefield to the right, instead of fighting to make the Brexit more leftist.

Every time I see a "left" Brit deploring the Brexit because they think it's going to be so anti-progressive, I always think, "maybe if you and your people had lived up to your responsibilities, it wouldn't turn out that way."

Of course Corbyn was feckless as usual where it came to the Brexit.

Posted by: Russ | Oct 21, 2018 12:54:56 PM | 32

Four obviously Republican White Helmet operatives 'confronted' Mitch McConnell in a restaurant, carefully mimeing the 'Why don't you go back to your country!?' Anti-Immigrant Script(TM) galvanizing NV voters in early poll openings.

They got a two-fer with Elizabeth Warren's catastrophic Pocohantas PR disaster, almost too well scripted in its timing, neh? Two sides of the same psyop. Biden will be their sock puppet in 2020, and they're gonna let Red win this round.

So multi-millionaire Bernie Sanders flagellates, multi-millionaire Rodham prevaricates, multi-millionaire Pelosi pustulates (sp), as Trump goes hard on Iran, soft on IL-KSA, and bangs his gums on Russia, all to circle the wagons of all the Old White Cold Warriors, John Birchers and Daughters of the American Revolution.

Like watching Captain Kangaroo re-runs, 8th-grade equivalent of what passes for USAryan political and economic discourse.

What a cluster-frack the -$5,000B a year bleedout Deep Purple Mil.Gov UniParty has become, where all your hopes and dreams, last life savings and retail tariffs, gas taxes and peace dividends go to die.

Now Go Vote!(TM) as if your emotional and psychological life depended on it! The Power of Stress-Positioning Compels You!

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 21, 2018 1:12:15 PM | 33

The Kashoggi Affair will lose its potency in the US after the mid-term elections. If Trump pulls off another electoral upset by dragging the GOP across the finish line to hold the House, then the NeverTrump media and the Democrats will have to triple-down on the next "outrage du jour" as the Russia collusion narrative will be dead.

Posted by: ab initio | Oct 21, 2018 1:24:13 PM | 34

21

And as soon as you posted your carefully-considered analysis, it would be labeled 'conspiracy theory, then be carpet-bombed with chem trails and lizard people and alien lifeforms humming in Antartica. Meanwhile the bishops and the mullahs of MSM would chant The Miracle of the Two Planes and Three Towers and 270° 5G Diving Spiral 540 Knots 30 Feet Off the Deck. Then you'd be banned by the mods as a risk of being labeled 'Milo' or 'Alex'.

Hallehuah! Praise Jebeezus!

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 21, 2018 1:26:43 PM | 35

Sid2 @29

"A member of the 15-man-team then dressed in Khashoggi's clothes to make it appear as if he had left the consulate, the official added."

An interesting detail. Seems gratuitous, unneeded, as far as explaining the currently existing accounts. If accurate, wouldn't there be Turkish CCTV footage of this disguised figure walking out of consulate?

Posted by: smoke | Oct 21, 2018 1:42:16 PM | 36

Does anyone know of a good balanced analysis of the UN Global Compact for Migration? I've just been reading this piece on Strategic Culture, but it is blatently alarmist and right-wing, and most likely seriously distorts the issues. On the other hand what is discussed smacks disturbingly of George Soros's elitist social engineering, so I suspect there could be some very disturbing issues lurking in there. The abovementioned article:

UN will soon try to enforce open borders as a ‘human right’

On the opposite side from the bias of the above link is for example this one The Global Compact for Migration and Refugees4Sale which is probably not particularly biased but is a restricted aspect of the issues; it does hint at some of the problems, though.

In the old order there was a principle that there is a need for international protection for refugees (for which term a moderately precise definition exists, and which is a status that exists independently of any recognition as such - i.e. someone who satisfies the definition of a refugee is a refugee irrespective of whether a state has/will/not approve(d) that status), and a categorical distinction between refugees and migrants who are not refugees. In addition, there used to be the standard principle of non-refoulement, by which a migrant claiming to be a refugee has to be assessed as a potential refugee in the first "safe" state he enters during his migration, and if he claims refugee status in a subsequently reached state he has to be returned to the first one [any other state can admit a migrant as a refugee if they so wish, but are not obliged under international law either to admit them or to process the application]. I am pretty certain that at least 20 years ago, the status quo was such that the latter principle applied internationally to all countries that recognise international laws on refugee status (all UN members??), and all relevant international bodies especially UNHCR which at that time gave prominent emphasis to the non-refoulement principle (without any restriction of scope by region).

Over the last decade all that seems to have gone almost completely down the drain (like many principles of international law that applied until 2 decades ago). Regarding the principle of non-refoulement, the MSM over the last few years have claimed (specifically in the context of migration into Europe) that non-refoulement was a legal principle introduced by the EU to determine how/where refugees are processed (historically totally untrue), and insinuating that it does not apply more generally (hence the notion a few years ago, probably around 2013, that the EU should find a better solution. This may reflect a structural contradiction in the EU notion of open borders for EU citizens, since there are necessarily certain dominant migration routes, and states like Greece, Italy and Eastern European states get lumbered with an unmanageable and unfair proportion of the migrants.

The other principle emphasising the difference between refugees and non-refugee migrants also seems to have mysteriously evaporated. Perhaps this is the result of manipulation by Soros et al, I don't know.

Different states have different geostrategic interests wrt migrants. Germany (elite) and UK wanted to have lots of low-cost workers to force down labour costs and labour security for the benefit of large corporations. When Merkel said all the migrants streaming into Europe by the millions were welcome in Germany, it was certainly not out of compassion - Adolf Merkel-Hitler not Mutti Merkel! She was depending on the same essential criteria used by Hitler to multiply manufacturing capacity and minimise labour costs when he set up labour (concentration) camps in Eastern Europe to manufacture what was needed for the war. Because Merkel wanted to help corporations force down labour costs and force out labour security, she didn't care whether migrants were refugees or economic migrants - indeed economic migrants are definitely preferred because they are more incentivised to work and more easily manipulated to work for low wages and under poor conditions. "Compassion" didn't enter the equation, except in terms of propaganda.

It has long been clear that the major cause for the migration problem has been the psychopathic foreign policies of the elites, therefore some of the most obvious core aspects of the Global Compact for Migration seem superficially to be addressing the right issues. But is that really the case in practice? It may be that different interest groups saw very different (and contradictory) things in the early discussions for the Compact for Migration, and it is quite theoretically possible powerful interest groups might have pushed the proposals in a way that appear to be one thing but are in effect something completely different. The fact that 191 countries agreed to sign it only tends to increase my suspicions (unfortunately), considering the diverging interests of different countries - especially the exploiting world and the exploited world.

Posted by: BM | Oct 21, 2018 1:45:37 PM | 37

Details continue to spill out. Now, interior royal princes are reported disturbed and trying to contact the King, but prevented by MbS. A General Mutrib, very close to MbS, one of his seven bodyguards at the Consulate,left Istanbul before the others with a large bag while the others celebrated at a dinner re "mission accomplished."

The latest WHAAT? out of me is that MbS spoke to Khashoggi by telephone moments before he was murdered. If true, this directly shows the lies the man is capable of. Maybe the US senators calling MbS a liar know something we don't. Jared is in the doghouse for his complicity in enabling MbS to deal with his critics.

Trump is floundering from "credible" to "deception," as he floundered re Kavanaugh ("both seemed convincing," he said after the late September hearing with Christine Ford) before wiping her up one side and down the other with demonizing a few days later. I think the damage problem here for the midterms is significant, and Trump will not retain the House and perhaps not the Senate either.

Why this case should rivet so much attention whereas deaths of 40 kids on a bus, then 17 more a few days ago, etc. etc. do not, seems a case of gag me, where is my vomit trough taken a step too far, possibly because US friends of Khashoggi in the government, CIA, MSM got upset. And let's not forget the rumor Khash was in on a CIA plot to establish a commission to run SA (one of a three member board) in the interests of the US. Could add to why MbS was keen on shutting him up.

I wouldn't think the detail of the fake person in his clothes leaving the back door is "gratuitous, unneeded" in that it shows once again the lies spun from the Saudis in their desperate scrabbling as this thing falls apart.

Posted by: Sid2 | Oct 21, 2018 2:11:40 PM | 38

erdogan saying ankara will reveal all on the kashoggi this tuesday... erdogan must be working with an astrologer to time this like that going into a full moon.

Posted by: james | Oct 21, 2018 2:19:26 PM | 39

@35 I don't see it as very complicated. There are economic factors, cheap labour, refugees from oppression etc. but basically anybody who doesn't like open borders is branded as xenophobic, racist, fascist, or misguided nationalist. Consequently many people choose to remain silent.

The pendulum may be swinging. From your first link....

Is this the end of borders as we know it? Frohnmaier shakes his head: “The last word has not yet been spoken.”

The young politician is convinced that opposition to such a notion is gathering speed: “More and more Europeans will vote in future for political forces rejecting the open border policy. This process is ongoing and unstoppable.”

Posted by: dh | Oct 21, 2018 2:26:42 PM | 40

Undisputed :::
Saudi Arabia Wahabbism is a leader of Mideast mayhem.
USA supports Saudi Arabia in the ongoing mayhem
So does Canada.
So does Britain.
and France.
Kashoggi a Washington Post reporter.
Washington Post big disseminator of lies.
Same with the New York Times
Both WP and NYT hid the Saudi USA CANADA BRITAIN FRENCH supported aggression on Yemen.
But this is WP and NYT opportunity to disparage Trump.
Therefore it is big "nooze." To be sensationalized. however.
Nothing new to report at all. Same old.
But shame on the alt for sucking along. Stupid is as stupid does.
One WP "journalist" a bigget casualty ? But, hundreds of thousands Syrian and Yemen casualties? No pro blem for NYT and WP s--t heds.
Grow up, world.


Posted by: joey | Oct 21, 2018 2:31:06 PM | 41

With the internecine demi god scraps, i appreciate the efforts here to look at the bigger ME frames and a number of perspectives have been well proposed.

One angle not introduced publicly here although implied is the recent timeline of events in beltway kabuki:

McCain demise
MB kin HA’s well-documented whispers to Sen Graham at funeral w subsequent staredown (see yt vids...the crowds loved that one)
MSM successful pussyhat deflection of US SC appointment arm$ investor backstory (detailed for masses by GW c.o Truthleaks)
Kissinger seat at Trump table (he was also in the funeral scenes)
Biden jostling for 2020
Successful India-Russia diplomatic bhajan in time for Dashami festival (who cares about DoD base leases, maybe India can get Gates Foundation to be the agent for running that deal? /sarc)

etc etc

In this light, Kgate provides nice scene for Dem-Cheney clique pinning sadistic Saudi love affair onto Trump same as they did w Uranium One.

fyi M2 and AW posts sound a bit like CS alter egos

Posted by: slit | Oct 21, 2018 2:41:56 PM | 42

17

Just as chess is not WoW and GoT is not Stalingrad or the Great March, so is fiat capitalism today not the ancient Royal Capitalism of lands, resources, ships, gold and rare gems. We live in an explosion of fiat opportunity.

I had a wealthy mentor who recently passed, and I would sob out the same end-stage capitalism myth you presented. Then he would strike me with a thrown book (signifying I was an over-educated sniffling dumbkopf), and remind me that there is more capital in play now, more free and unencumbered wealth, per capita 1W, than any time in human history. Ever.

And unlike the Age of Landed Rentiers, and especially with today's Flat Earth IoTs, anyone can become incredibly fiat wealthy, then buy whatever lands, resources, gold and precious gems that makes them happy.

This End Stage Capitalism meme is just al-Goreian 97% Madison Avenue 'Hurry Before Supplies Run Out!' mythos. They want you to choke and panic buy or sell. Just more Fear and Loathing from Deep State psyop. They need your tithes. They feed on fear.

With my mentor's goading, I've consulted around the globe, met important business and government leaders, chased wealth and lost it, and just this morning have two companies tendering contract offers on a product I've developed, while I sit here in my pyjamas listening to Tchaikovsky!

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, neh? Don't listen to slobbering cretins! Turn Off MSM! It's regurgitated Old Testament Rabbinical 'Go sacrifice all your children to Moloch!' evangelism.

Get fiat, or die trying.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 21, 2018 2:54:05 PM | 43

Whats going to happen is the fans are going to leave the stadium. No one with an IQ over there shoe size believes anything either side says or proposes. Actions not words. This is all we have left of democracy. Trump is the mule.

Posted by: steve | Oct 21, 2018 2:56:08 PM | 44

What might Erdogan want out of this gift that has fallen into his lap?

Gulen out of the the US and into his hands.

CIA won't do that, but Gulen is what Erdogan wants from US. He gave up the "Pastor" without getting anything.
Pompeo tried to pressure him over S-400s. That was laughed off by Ankara.

Erdogan has two big worries: Kurds and Gulen.
He has many desires (dreams, delusions).
But he knows the forces internally that threaten his existence and success as ruler. Already, the Muslim Brotherhood has suffered great losses.

This noose around MBS's neck that Erdogan may be holding is leverage against the CIA specifically. It was information handed by Jared Kushner to MBS that led to this and others being liquidated by the Saudis. Erdogan might be able to tie it all together. That would be leverage the US cannot ignore. The entire anti-Iran strategy depends on Jared-Bibi and MBS.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Oct 21, 2018 3:27:51 PM | 45

25

IDK if MbS had anything to do with the confrontation, or it was some 9th cousin royal guard attempting to give Khashoggi an offer he couldn't refuse. Nobody will ever know what happened. Just another MSM Piece Beyond Understanding.

Remember though, we *do know* that Obama and Rodham and their WH crew sat there in the White House Situation Room, watching *live satellite feed* of Ghaddafi's final movements, the half-meter long bayonet stabbing bloody anal rape to death.

Then Rodham sat there, right afterward, drenched in dewey musk, chortling a paraphrase from Caesar, "We came, we saw, he died! CAWW, CAWW, CAWW!" Monsters!!

Then everyone forgot about it, like it never happened! Poor! The Lion of Africa, like the Lion of Panjshir, just another hot blip on Deep State's radar. Same sh*t, different day. Fahged abahd et.

So why is Khashoggi, a non-entity, *still in the media cross-hairs?!* Pre-election psyop, and extortion. Saudis, Chinese and Russians want to dump their $Ts in junk 1.88% US Treasuries. That will implode the US budget deficit, and the SS and MC Trust Funds as 'buyers of last resort'.

May you live in blistering times.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 21, 2018 3:28:40 PM | 46

@ 16 "The whole mega-chart of crossed alliances has become so confused nobody knows what is going on, who to support, who to trust to have an impact, what to do, etc."

Keeping in mind the anti Israel faction helps keep track of, or make sense of alliances. Syria, Turkey, Iran, Qatar, Jordan and Kuwait headed that way. These are forming into a faction of strange bedfellows with the US moving their embassy to Jerusalem and the other Trump machinations with Israel being the catalyst.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 21, 2018 3:32:00 PM | 47

slit

The staredown leads one to believe that there's something revealed by HA-Gramham's public interaction that is meant to be hush-hush.

One such possible revelation is simply the closeness of the people at the top.

Another may be some preference for Muslim Brotherhood - leading again to questions of whether Khashoggi (and ultimately MbS) was set-up. Along these lines, I'm reminded of Amb. April Glaspie's relating to Saddam that US has "no position" on it's dispute with Kuwait. Did the US also have "no position" on MbS consolidating power? Yet now, thanks to Khashoggi, there is a clear push to have MbS removed - possibly because the Saudis haven't signed the arms deals.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 21, 2018 3:33:09 PM | 48

40

fyi slit, Khashoggi sounds a lot like the alter-ego perogi, lol!

Let me give you a secret. You hold two e-names, then you cross-post between the two, as though it's a real conversation. It's an old Hugh Downes controlled dissent psyop technique, derived from the even older Baptist Call and Response. Praise Jebeezus! Can I get an amen?

Now would you like the Red- or the Blue- Koolaid? Just Go Vote!(TM)

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 21, 2018 3:43:34 PM | 49

Red Ryder 43:

He [Erdogan] gave up the "Pastor" without getting anything.

Erdogan did get something: Israel Confirms Trump Helped with Turkish Detainee’s Release to Free Pastor Brunson

But then Erdogan reneged on the deal (or so we are told) so he could pretend to be standing up to the US bully. This allowed Brunson's release to conveniently occur just before the mid-terms (perfectly-timed for Trump!).

'Ottoman slap' or 'Ottoman embrace'?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 21, 2018 3:45:52 PM | 50

The mid terms. The Dems are going to protect the small percentage of people with pre existing conditions. The Reps are going to keep the immigrant hordes from living in your basement. Two issues that have nothing to do with making America Great Again

Posted by: steve | Oct 21, 2018 3:46:23 PM | 51

49
Number of people with preexisting conditions

About half of nonelderly Americans have one or more pre-existing health conditions, according to a recent brief by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, or HHS, that examined the prevalence of conditions that would have resulted in higher rates, condition exclusions, or coverage denials before the ACA. Approximately 130 million nonelderly people have pre-existing conditions nationwide, and, as shown in the table available below, there is an average of more than 300,000 per congressional district. Nationally, the most common pre-existing conditions were high blood pressure (44 million people), behavioral health disorders (45 million people), high cholesterol (44 million people), asthma and chronic lung disease (34 million people), and osteoarthritis and other joint disorders (34 million people).

While people with Medicaid or employer-based plans would remain covered regardless of medical history, the repeal of pre-ex protections means that the millions with pre-existing conditions would face higher rates if they ever needed individual market coverage. The return of pre-ex discrimination would hurt older Americans the most. As noted earlier, while about 51 percent of the nonelderly population had at least one pre-existing condition in 2014, according to the HHS brief, the rate was 75 percent of those ages 45 to 54 and 84 percent among those ages 55 to 64. But even millions of younger people, including 1 in 4 children, would be affected by eliminating this protection.

US has no concept of solidarity.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 21, 2018 3:53:21 PM | 52

Jackrabbit @12

re Caitlin:

“, a complete lack of accountability for the Democratic Party’s brazen election rigging,...”

Mission accomplished!

Did CTR do an IPO?

Someone show the balance sheets and Board of Directors shufflings at Genie, (defunct/dissolved?) Podesta Group, etc.

Posted by: slit | Oct 21, 2018 3:53:23 PM | 53

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-an-apparent-saudi-hit-job-has-shaken-the-world-a-1234159.html

Spiegel:How an Apparent Saudi Hit Job Has Shaken the World .

Turkey says it will reveal all it knows on Tuesday (perhaps the audio) while Germany and other demand details .... Spiegel sounds like they either heard the tape or talked to someone who did ... and it contradicts "the story told thus far" of unintended demise since apparently fingers were amputated while alive and kicking as was beheading (necessitating that extensive clean-up) .... Yes, we won't know until ... maybe never ... but "oops, we killed him by accident" seems unlikely and does not explain the preparation (premeditation) or the dismemberment.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 21, 2018 4:01:16 PM | 54

Be skeptical when the political/media class converge on a single narrative says CJ. My sentiments exactly.

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/10/19/be-skeptical-whenever-the-politicalmedia-class-
converges-on-a-single-narrative/

Perhaps setting up MBS as the next OBL and/or Saddam to justify the next great war in the middle east and provide a cover for the coming economic crash

Remember that Saudi clash with Canada over the summer and “someone” from Saudi arabia tweeted a picture of a plane heading toward the toronto skyline? Then there is the 9/11 trial coming up against Saudi Arabia, perhaps made moot if Saudi Arabia becomes an occupied country like Iraq. House of Sauds usefulness may be over.


Posted by: Pft | Oct 21, 2018 4:11:58 PM | 55

BM @35--

Historically, the migration of groups has always been disruptive and in some cases created major crises, like Islam's Rise as a result of war between the Roman and Sassanid Empire which was driven by large migrations in Europe and Southwest Central Asia. Economic dislocation's always been the main driver of migration long predating capitalism and subsequent Imperialist policies that still roil Africa and the Americas. Grossly unequal wealth distribution has always been a major factor. Unfortunately, the premise forwarding the logic of open borders has always confronted the wall known as ethnocentrism, which nowadays is used by politicos to sow dissention such that solidarity cannot be attained--just look at how Trump manipulates this dynamic, as well as Erdogan, Merkel, Macron, and a host of others mostly within Europe but not exclusively. And with Climate Change, the situation will worsen--The Walking Dead TV show provides a vivid example of different bands/tribes initially engaged in warfare over scare resources only to finally realize its futility and to grudgingly forget the past's atrocities in order to work together in a communalistic relationship: Yes, it's difficult but doable. However, the big difference with that world compared to ours is there's no BigLie Media driving an elite agenda that's not in the commonfolk's interest and consumerism died with the outbreak of the plague crisis.

Thanks for bringing that issue to the thread as it illuminates so many other related issues that are mostly interrelated but could be solved IF people treated all humans with the same respect they demand for themselves--That's the Golden Rule, I believe--except for psychopathic sociopaths wanting to control all by setting one group against another. The newest Non Sequitur comicstrip thread "Nebbish" shows just how it's done. (The "Nebbish" story runs only on Sundays and began 7 Oct. It helps to start at the beginning, but isn't required to grasp its message.) My own message remains the same--Corporate driven politics must be replaced by human driven politics which requires ridding ourselves of the elite favoring the former--and this is why Trump's not a Populist by definition as a Populist advocates human driven politics, not the corporate politics so easily seen as Trump's main constituency.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 21, 2018 4:23:50 PM | 56

About Brexit (an old post, but analysis is still valid):

Brexit is just a symptom of a longer term decline of the UK

--//--

Now, to the news:

Gorbachev: Trump’s move to quit INF is ‘narrow-minded’, a clear ‘mistake’

The USA is clearly looking for a hot war. That's the only way out of its secular decline in the world economy.

Japan finds itself buried in plastic waste after China stops importing world’s trash

There's been a discussion going on in the First World countries about what to do with the "shithole countries" (bomb them? invade them? nuke them? esterlize them?). Problem is: shithole countries exist for a reason; capitalism is a world system, not a national system.

Rosa Weber se acovarda diante da ameaça de Eduardo Bolsonaro

Situation in Brazil is critical: today, son of future President Jair Bolsonaro essentially threatened to kill the Brazilian equivalent of the Supreme Court (he said he would only need "two soldiers"). In the streets, three leftists were already killed openly for supporting the Workers Party candidate. The Police, which already declared support for Bolsonaro and an eventual return to a military dictatorship, is doing nothing: far-righters have essentially earned a "license to kill" leftists in Brazil.

Posted by: vk | Oct 21, 2018 4:56:11 PM | 57

The Duran just published an article titled "Converting Khashoggi into Cash"
It points out that The Turkish/Saudi conflict goes back a long way as the "The first Saudi state, the Emirate of Diriyah, went belly up in 1818, with the death of head of the house of al-Saud, Abdullah bin Saud – actually, literally with his head hung on a gate in Constantinople by Erdogan’s Ottoman predecessor, Sultan Mahmud II."
http://theduran.com/converting-khashoggi-into-cash/October 21, 2018

Interesting, Turkey will reveal entire truth about Khashoggi's death on Tuesday - Erdogan
https://www.rt.com/newsline/441877-turkey-reveal-truth-khashoggi/

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 21, 2018 5:13:01 PM | 58

The following is from the Q&A portion of Valdai Club's Plenary Session and IMO is very critical as we attempt to understand what underlies the extreme Russophobia displayed by Western elites and their minions:

"Chairman of the Patriarchal Council for Culture Metropolitan Tikhon:

"The round table I took part in here, at Valdai, dealt with cultural issues, or to be exact, whether and how culture can affect the life of society in the 21st century and today.

"At the onset of the discussion Mr Zanussi asked the following question, Can we even grasp, can we assess a nation’s culture today? An opinion was voiced that the level of charity in society may be such an assessment criterion. I mean general culture, not its specific manifestations.

"It may seem that it was a fairly abstract discussion. But the events in Kerch, even though we do not fully understand the motives behind this ill-fated person’s actions, let us see how aggression and intolerance are on the rise not only in Russia but also generally everywhere.

"My question is as follows: Firstly, what do you yourself think of the conclusions we have made at this round table regarding charity as a key criterion of society’s general culture? [My Emphasis]

"Secondly, we talk a lot of about state culture policy nowadays. There is a lot of debate. We are all aware that the state will not regulate culture in a rough or intrusive way, and this is probably absolutely correct. But can the state deliberately support all those creative and historical spiritual and cultural keynote dominants that have developed in Russia, something we call spiritual and cultural values?

"Vladimir Putin: I think this what we have been doing, in reference to the second part of your question. I think the state must do this very carefully by allowing people with different outlooks to work out their own views, express them and compete, let us say, with your views. It may seem surprising for me to say that, but I think this is the way it is.

"My sympathies certainly lie with you, but as a state official, I still think it is my duty to ensure the opportunity for every person to express their position. Why? Because my position is based on the first part of your comment.

"What is charity? To use more modern words, it is tolerance, commitment to compromise. At any rate, it is one of the facets of charity. This is the way it is. If we claim that charity, tolerance is a criterion of culture, then we must be in a position to let people express their views and listen to them." [My Emphasis]

Russian has a unique descriptive term--Anglicized as Neculturny: Those without/incapable of having culture, an extremely disparaging term. I bring this up because what we see rising again in the United States is intolerance and the criminalization of charity--particularly toward the homeless. The attitude of the Outlaw US Empire's military toward the bombing of civilians, their infrastructure and all related behavior that are War Crimes is the most graphic example--Yemen, Haiti, Palestine, Somalia, and all too many other places. Just the Russian attempts to try and minimize civilian casualties in Syria versus NATO's attitude on the question shows the vast divide present. Which nations are tolerant thus ipso facto humanitarian and which aren't? IMO, the divide is very stark. One side says There's No Alternative, while the other says Another World's Possible that dignifies people rather than denigrating them.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 21, 2018 5:20:19 PM | 59

Well, I bugged out early on the Khashoggi thing. Why are the Saudis suddenly so guilty for murdering this one stupid reporter? After all, they torture and kill million and millions, kind of like how McDonald's flips "millions and millions" of burgers. The whole thing could be called "subreal," sort of like when the feds bust some gangster who killed hundreds of competitors for tax evasion. Subreal.

Speaking of new words I just invented a new one, sort of, but not quite. Something not all that big and global -- allow me to explain. Have you ever heard of the "doggiebag? You know, like when somebody goes out to maybe a Chinese restaurant and doesn't quite finish it all, they ask for a "doggiebag, so they can give it as a treat to the dog (ha ha ha). Well, here is a concept that begs to be expanded upon. Today in the fabled America I find myself surrounded by people who used to be "middle class," but now are pretty much just poor. But they hang tenaciously on to their old middle class ways. They still but carrots at Whole Foods, pretend to shop at fancy stores, and even hang around at Starbucks. Hell, you yourself might be one of them! So anyway, I have just started to call these folks "doggiebaggers." As they exit the fabled middle class, these doggiebaggers simply want to carry some of their lifestyle leftovers out into the cold harsh world of the impoverished. I'm sure you've met some of them, probably real close to home.

Posted by: blues | Oct 21, 2018 5:41:09 PM | 60

Noirette 2
Your last sentence is on the money .
It is the lack of a just economic structure and deeply shared codes ( language , religion ) that makes the European disunity something the English are wise to steer around !

Posted by: ashley albanese | Oct 21, 2018 5:59:34 PM | 61

46

Khashoggi, representing Brennan/UAE pitched the coup to palace guard in Turkey. When earnest money was transferred (proof of treason, Guards took Khashoggi out, sending a message to deposed MBZayed(plot mastermind)/UAE. They tried in Los Vegas and failed. MBS wants out of Yemen. LOTS of money will be lost -- KSA's Vietnam; draining the treasury.

Posted by: steve k | Oct 21, 2018 6:06:50 PM | 62

blues @58--

Your characterizations of what those in the "fabled middle class" are "their old middle class ways" is rather telling. Personally having been temporarily homeless twice and been a member of all classes not upper at one time or another, those class distinctions you ascribe have zero meaning for me. What I find more important are people's attitude and philosophy toward people with different amounts of power as they reflect morality and their personal quality relative to being a divider or uniter. On one side we might celebrate the demise of what one author called "The Imperial Middle," while on the other we might bemoan the hardtimes visited on many via impersonal--illegal--structural economic changes driven by Corporate/Elite governmental policy that put them out on the streets or not quite if they're lucky, like myself (illegal because of the Full Employment Act's mandate).

Are we to fault the Imperial Middle for becoming the Elite's dupes because they were manipulated into that role through the very careful teaching they received and thus remain divided and unable to overcome the Elite? Or should we adopt a different tactic that allows us to join forces to defeat our oppressors?

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 21, 2018 6:29:26 PM | 63

Seems mbs will execute nearly 20 scapegoats in short order. No?

The world is a vampire.

Posted by: Fastfreddy | Oct 21, 2018 6:35:00 PM | 64

Jackrabbit 48

The date of your linked article - 27 Jul 2018. From the article - "However, Brunson remains, languishing in a Turkish prison cell and Ankara said it had not agreed to any prisoner swap."

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 21, 2018 6:42:12 PM | 65

karlof1 @57

Charity? Did you mean "compassion"?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 21, 2018 6:44:22 PM | 66

57
Thanks karlof1, I see that difference between east and western views expressed in the SAA and Russian vs fukusi rout of jihadis from Syrian cities. Example: the former negotiates for reintegration or exile to render peace and restoration of order for civil society while the latter blitzkrieg the city and occupy the ruins.

The comparison between Aleppo and Raqqa is stark.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 21, 2018 6:49:48 PM | 67

=>>karlof1 | Oct 21, 2018 6:29:26 PM | 61

Yeah I been temporarily homeless. And got my "handle" from the Black Panthers because I wore these blue denim deck shoes all the time (needed to get aboard yachts) ("BLUESneakers"). And yes, your perception is 100% correct. The simple reality is that I have really witnessed many, many people who deeply believe that there is a "middle class," and they have been somehow mistakenly expelled from it, so they try desperately to continue the "lifestyle." These people simply do not think about "oppressors" or "power," since that is way too "un-middle class." And their sad obsessions are disturbing if you befriend them.

Posted by: blues | Oct 21, 2018 7:05:20 PM | 68

The ghastly Ghaddafi murder was intentionally kept on the down low. Hillary's snafu - We Came, We Saw, He Died. Uproarious laughter - was a PR fu ck up.

This Khashoggi murder is intentionally amplified.

Amplification or squelching suits an agenda.

We can see a different agenda in each of the above cases.

Posted by: fast freddy | Oct 21, 2018 7:07:15 PM | 69

=>> fast freddy | Oct 21, 2018 7:07:15 PM | 67

Yeah, "intentionally amplified" The CIA/media is a vast carnival of funhouse mirrors. Little things can look huge, and big things can look tiny.

Posted by: blues | Oct 21, 2018 7:19:29 PM | 70

Spent the night watching PressTV the Iran english language news service which is always a good source of the other POV. According the the banner running on the bottom of the screen, yesterday the head of Egypt's intelligence service was due to attend a meeting with Palestinian security officials in Gaza - (prolly something about divvying up the profits from the 'gate' which opens from Gaza into Egypt IMO).
Anyway the zionists refused him 'permission' told him not to as they are about to attack Gaza big time. They will kill a couple thousand Palestinians as 'cover' then round up all the organizers they have been videoing and shotgun miccing every Friday so another generation of up and coming Palestinian leaders will be tortured, some compromised others disappeared and hopelessly decimated. Not to worry the west has had enough of 'ragheads' with the ongoing Kashoggi soap opera so no one will say anything. Especially not in amerika where the DC whores are too busy p1ssing up all that lovely aipac lucre to consider upsetting a zionist slug.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 21, 2018 7:23:00 PM | 71

Hope @23

Sounds like you don't fully understand the game you are playing.

The game was still capitalism even before they called it capitalism Money has always be able to buy money and believe me rich people know this. That is why we have what is constantly referred to as greed, granted there are those who are greedy but for the most part they are simply engaging in survival tactics. Thats the system we arranged ourselves under so understand it, get with it, or join the effort to change it.

Posted by: Jef | Oct 21, 2018 7:51:52 PM | 72

Peter AU 1 @63

Maybe you missed this part of my comment @48:

then Erdogan reneged on the deal (or so we are told) ...

=
The dispute over whether there was a deal ultimately worked to the advantage of BOTH Erdogan and Trump. Erdogan got to pretend that he was standing up to USA, Trump got the release done at a politically opportune time (just before the US "mid-term" elections).

In September, there were signals that Brunson would be released on October 12th.
I have posted that link at least twice already in response to people who thought that Brunson's release was related to Khashoggi's death.

Upshot: If relations between Trump and Erdogan are as strained as they appear(ed) to be, one would expect that Erdogan wouldn't give Trump a "win" by releasing Brunson before the US mid-term elections. But he did! And on the eve of the Iran sanctions coming into effect too! (If Erdogan were "turning east" this nicety would not happen in light of Trump belligerance toward SCO countries).

Brunson's release should be viewed in the context of:

>> US backing Turkey's hold on Idlib by threatening to attack if Russia and Syria mount an offensive against Idlib;

>> Still uncertain implementation of Putin-Erdogan Sochi Agreement

Turkish media has already claimed that all heavy weaponry had been withdrawn by the so-called opposition. Nonetheless, recent rocket and mortar strikes on government targets in northern Hama and southwestern Aleppo show that this is at least partly untrue. Furthermore, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham and other radicals are not hurrying to abandon their positions. The situation is developing.

>> Preparations for Turkey-US joint patrolling of Manjib (as agreed in June 2018)

Following the completion of training, common united patrolling activities will begin ...

Bottom line: Erdogan needs USA if he wants to retain Northern Syria (Idlib, Afrin, Manjib) and USA needs both Turkey and Kurds as political cover for their occupation on behalf of Israel (paid for by Saudis).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 21, 2018 7:54:31 PM | 73

Krollchem @56

Re: "Converting Khashoggi into Cash"

ARTICLE SUMMARY

10-12-18

The Turkish government’s vacillations and zigzagging in the face of the country’s economic woes reflect how squeezed it has become economically and politically and how concerned it is about it with elections scheduled for March.

. . .


In mid-2018, Turkey’s external debt stock stood at $457 billion. Over the next 12 months, the country will need $181 billion to roll over maturing debts. The financing of the current account deficit requires another $40 billion, at the least, though the gap has begun to decrease under the impact of the economic downturn.

In total, Turkey needs a minimum of $220 billion over the next 12 months, or roughly $18 billion a month, but it has become a high-risk country for creditors. Its risk premium, reflected in credit default swaps, has decoupled from those of other emerging economies, hovering above 400 basis points despite occasional drops. In sum, borrowing has become more expensive for Turkey.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/10/turkey-pins-hope-on-time-buying-measures-for-economy.html#ixzz5Uc3TXAgv

Short Term External Debt Statistics [Central Bank of Turkey]

8/18


As of the end of August 2018, short-term external debt stock was realized as USD 175.2 billion, based on the remaining maturities calculated using external debt data, which was 1 year or less due to the original maturity. The stock's 18.2 billion US dollars portion, composed of resident banks and the private sector's debts to foreign branches and subsidiaries are in Turkey. When evaluated on a debtor basis, it is observed that the public sector has a share of 18.1%, the Central Bank and the private sector have a share of 81% and 0.9%, respectively.

http://www.tcmb.gov.tr/wps/wcm/connect/TR/TCMB+TR/Main+Menu/Istatistikler/Odemeler+Dengesi+ve+Ilgili+Istatistikler/Kisa+Vadeli+Dis+Borc+Istatistiklerii/

Posted by: pogohere | Oct 21, 2018 7:56:53 PM | 74

@ 16 "The whole mega-chart of crossed alliances has become so confused nobody knows what is going on, who to support, who to trust to have an impact, what to do, etc."

All by design I'm thinking.

As for those who say voting in Amerika is useless; It's good therapy, and free, so WTF. Besides, the hackers and vote suppressors need work too.

Someone must believe voting makes a difference, otherwise, it sure is an expensive hoax.

Posted by: ben | Oct 21, 2018 8:49:09 PM | 75

Agreed. Vote even all you do do is spoil your ballot. Anything else is easy to spoof or dismiss as apathy. Although I prefer voting third party or write-in to spoiling.

Posted by: glitch | Oct 21, 2018 8:58:05 PM | 76

Jackrabbit @64--

"Charity" is the word used by the translators in the transcript. Russian/English isn't always exact; I'd need to look at the Russian used to see if a difference exists. I think the context rules out "compassion" as an option. I ought to have included the discussion that immediately followed as it helped to further provide the distinction I was trying to show.

Uncle Tungsten @65--

The fundamental point I'm trying to raise is that an ideological divide exists between what's called "the West" and most of the rest of the world relative to the "values" being promoted. A few important people like Putin have said there's no ideological schism that's currently driving what most would describe as a "divide" whereas there's ample evidence that such is not the case, that a great fundamental divide exists--people promotion via Win-Win versus people denigration via Zero-sum corporate domination that treats people and all else as commodities.

blues @66--

Thanks for your reply and further explanation of your initial comment. I must say that I've yet to meet the sort of folk you describe, which is likely related to my locale. Part of the argument made within Imperial Middle has merit--the middle class within certain regions bought elite talking points made to "keep the poor in their place," that "welfare Queens" are real, that unions are anti-work/pro-communist, and that what constitutes "The Golden Rule" is a Communist Plot, and oh so much more.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 21, 2018 9:08:00 PM | 77

Anton @ 47

A++

Sounds at the bot farm IA programmer’s HR office from K street cheques: ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching!

Posted by: slit | Oct 21, 2018 9:20:14 PM | 78

Now Turkey is reporting that Khashoggi spoke to MBS over the phone immediately before being killed. Assuming this is true it's pretty apparent what Turkey is doing, their standing back letting Saudi Arabia make a public statement, then revealing more conflicting information, thus forcing the Saudi's to change their story again and again (thereby diminishing their creditability with each change). We can therefore infer several things from this tactic, the Turks are going after more than just money, by crippling MBS creditability in the Middle East and the World itself, they are trying to cripple Saudi leadership in the Middle East under MbS (which will be replaced by either Turkey or Iran). Further, crippling MbS in such a way will put significant (perhaps irresistible) pressure on MbS to abdicate so that Saudi Arabia can put this whole mess behind it under new leadership. Lastly, it looks like Turkey has slowly received Trump's blessing to do this to Saudi Arabia (probably made possible by releasing that US, CIA-linked pastor). For the US to sign-off on putting the screws to Saudi Arabia like this, from a geo-political view doesn't make much sense, The US needs Cheap oil from Saudi Arabia to make up for the drop in Iranian oil production from the sanctions (especially if the US attacks Iran or succeeds in toppling the government), this might mean that there are elements of the US government trying to undermine the Trump administrations drive for war with Iran by trying to capitalize on the Khashoggi situation.

Posted by: Kadath | Oct 21, 2018 9:41:58 PM | 79

The following is a link from ZH about the screws turning on Israel that wants to continue to murder people and still be friends....

Jordan Cancels Key Part Of Historic Treaty With Israel, Refusing To Renew Land Annexes

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 21, 2018 9:48:17 PM | 80

I can understand why MbS is so mystified: all those $Millions in bribes and all those $Billions in arms sales and when push finally comes to shove all those bought-and-paid-for Washington whores - bar Trump - rush to dump on him.

He must be perplexed: they are still whores, they haven't suddenly grown some morals, so someone must have put a better offer to them.

What. Can. It. Be???

He must be wondering why he bothered playing - and paying - the game.


Posted by: Yeah, Right | Oct 21, 2018 10:38:19 PM | 81

Agree w/Banger @20 ...

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Oct 21, 2018 10:55:11 PM | 82

@75 karlof1

I think Putin himself clarifies the terminology for us, in the piece you quoted and emphasized @57, where he says that instead of the word "charity" we could use more modern words such as tolerance and commitment to compromise.

It seems that in this context we're not talking about measuring a society by the volume of donations made to the poor, but rather more by its institutional attitude of taking a charitable view of something or someone. Freedom of expression and belief is probably a very good metric to use, and this is exactly what Putin chooses to elaborate his point.

~~

I have always been wary of the hypocrisy that marks the formal culture of the US. It has long struck me that a nation truly built on the rugged individual would have to maintain exquisite politeness and tolerance between its members. And I think the politeness is there, but not the tolerance. And hypocrisy creates the veneer beneath which tolerance fails silently.

But I wouldn't attempt to measure any of this, not without some very good scientific tools at least. As individuals, we meet with what we're prepared to recognize, and I'm not sure if anyone can say from one's own experience alone what US society is in the aggregate - at least, not while still holding a charitable view of its people ;)

Posted by: Grieved | Oct 21, 2018 10:57:10 PM | 83

pogohere@72

Thanks for the economic update on Turkey. I will add this to the long list of countries that have massive debt issues (often in US dollars).

Sounds like the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket!

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 21, 2018 11:22:27 PM | 84

Kadath @77:

it's pretty apparent what Turkey ... it looks like Turkey has slowly received Trump's blessing to do this to Saudi Arabia

I think you're right. There has been no move to try to counteract Turkey's version and any evidence they may have, nor has there been much of a defense of the Saudis (Trump's defense has been weak).

But I have problem with this:

(probably made possible by releasing that US, CIA-linked pastor).
See my comment @71.

Improvement in US-Turk relations can be traced back to early in 2018 when US wouldn't support Kurds in Afrin and Erdogan complained that USA didn't uphold Obama's agreement to given them control of Afrin and Manjib. In June the US and Turkey agreed on joint patrols of Manjib. In July there was supposed to be a deal on Brunson (but his release was delayed until October), and in August USA supported Turkey's occupation of Idlib by threatening a big attack on Syria if Russia & Syria moved against Idlib.

Further backdrop: Saudis haven't signed arms agreements and have talked with Russia about buying arms from them, which indicates resistance from the Saudis.

Knowing the above, it's very interesting that Khashoggi met his fiance in only in May 2018!?!

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 21, 2018 11:33:37 PM | 85

Jackrabbit
From youre link -In September, there were signals that Brunson would be released on October 12th - "Mike Pompeo told reporters that Pastor Andrew Brunson, who has been detained in Turkey, could be released this month. He is next scheduled to appear in court on Oct. 12"

This month as in the quote is September. Octuber was the next court hearing. You are clutching at straws.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 21, 2018 11:53:19 PM | 86

Peter AU 1: clutching at straws

No, I'm not. You're nitpicking.

With respect to Brunson's release, what's important is that:

1) Trump got a Turkish women released from an Israeli prison because he believed he had a deal.

2) Expectations that Brunson would be released continued. The release didn't "just happen" after Khashoggi was killed - it was already in the works. The speculation that Brunson's release is somehow related to Khashoggi is unjustified.

3) Brunson was released before the mid-terms.

4) The backdrop: Despite seeming to have poor relations with Turkey and good relations with Saudi Arabia, it's possible that there has been a reversal that was unnoticed until Khashoggi's death.

Since early this year, USA-Turkey have generally improving relations while relationship with Saudi Arabia is clouded by: not signing arms deal; improved Saudi-Russia relations; various Saudi disappointments with USA (like Qatar dispute and Yemen); MbS ruthlessness.


I would also add that I've been skeptical of the Erdogan "turning east" theme for quite some time.

PS Pompeo may well have mis-spoke. Perhaps he meant "within the month". That's very plausible because that's exactly what happened.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 22, 2018 1:43:58 AM | 87

karlof, Jackrabbit.

The word Putin used, 'miloserdiye' I have seen most often translated as 'mercy'. Though that is most likely in the religious sense, rather than the legal/punitive one. The online Russian dictionary definition translates as, "Readiness to help someone or to forgive someone out of empathy or philanthrophy."

Posted by: ДжММ | Oct 22, 2018 1:52:21 AM | 88

Jackrabbit "mis-spoke"

Misspoke.
I took this to mean we now have yank nukes in Australia aimed at China.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/us-official-misspoke-on-b1-bombers-being-based-in-australia-tony-abbott-20150515-gh28ox.html

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 22, 2018 1:57:47 AM | 89

@77 kadath.. good comment and speculation... it has been expressed before.. i don’t think it is exactly clear, but the folks in the usa out to get trump, don’t seem to care about the fallout on a bigger level..

Posted by: james | Oct 22, 2018 1:59:38 AM | 90

Everything changed after Pompeo's visit to Turkey. Pompeo has seen the goods and now Trump has to distance himself from MBS.

From @ 77 "it's pretty apparent what Turkey is doing, their standing back letting Saudi Arabia make a public statement, then revealing more conflicting information, thus forcing the Saudi's to change their story again and again (thereby diminishing their creditability with each change)."
Rather than with Trump's authorization, this is partly or jointly aimed at Trump due to his continuing support and arming of the Kurd's.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 22, 2018 2:17:52 AM | 91

there are a number of stories in today’s daily sabah on kashoggi if you are into following this closely...

Posted by: james | Oct 22, 2018 2:44:18 AM | 92

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 22, 2018 1:57:47 AM | 88

I'd say you are correct Peter AU for most of the time I lived in the NT amerika flew nuke loaded b-52's outta Darwin up tp Vietnam then across to Guam and nobody down south seemed to give a toss. Once the locals obviously had the numbers to stymie any further abuse of the outta sight outta mind attitudes of southerners, Keating and co moved the army outta Orange NSW to the top end, plus a couple of Squadrons of RAAF & a big mob of the Navy into the new but subsequently much upgraded Darwin Patrol boat base. Put em all in one spot then the tories only screw one electorate right I guess was neolib Keating's plan.
The plan was to outnumber all of us with nasty conservative wannabe baby-killers plus empty the same out of a couple of near marginal electorates down south turning those places into safe Labour State & Federal seats and hopefully chasing the 'ultra-lefties' outta the territory. Cos we still did embarrassing for ersatz left things like have a holiday & big party on May 1.
It worked for a little while but according to what I've been hearing the wannabe baby killers changed first, returning a slightly left (well neolib really but ya gotta start somewhere) administration to the territory. No one wants to live at 'X marks the spot' when the spot is the most likely place to cop a nuke when amerika screws up.

Hence the refusal of the Lib-Natz federal government to admit this. I think they still have an NT senate seat which would go next election if the deployment were proved true.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 22, 2018 3:16:48 AM | 93

Debsisdead

A lot of US bases here on Australia few know about. My brother operates a grader in the Territory. Grades the Sandover out to the QLD border and the Tanami road out to the WA border a couple of times a year. He gets to hear about a number of US bases from the locals along the way. Out of sight out of mind.
Another fella I run into, had to cart him back from the Fink race with some broken ribs and punctured lung. Getting into hearsay I guess, but one of his mates was a fencing contractor fencing US bases in northern Australia. The fences around some of these bases where over one hundred kilometers around and there were a lot of them. It was after this when talking to my brother about it that he also told me about the US bases.
They are kept very much out of site and out of the media here in Australia.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 22, 2018 3:59:18 AM | 94

@blues 58 and 66
As james here likes to say, your micro-level comments here provided the best insight, at least to me, I have seen the “doggiebagger” attitude in totally unrelated places to US but in similar times of decline. Clinging to a few remaining symbols of the former lifestyle, refusal to accept the demise is all too human. Makes me feel true compassion for the ordinary US former middle class people who share an albite very small piece of the AngloJewish psychopaths’ globalisation s*** cake. The outsiders get a much bigger piece of the same cake, by for example having their families blown up into pieces - their whole families being doggibagged.

Posted by: Kiza | Oct 22, 2018 4:00:46 AM | 95

From Craig Murray's site.

“…Over the weekend, there was a huge explosion at a workshop used for making chemicals in the small town of Tarmanin in Northern Idlib. The workshop included a large volume of chemical, explosive materials and liquid chlorine barrels. NINE British, Chechen and Turkish experts and TWO members of the White Helmets were killed in the blast.”

https://en.muraselon.com/2018/10/white-helmets-blast-chemical-syria/
https://en.reseauinternational.net/white-helmets-members-experts-killed-in-huge-blast-at-chemical-workshop-in-northwestern-syria/

Posted by: Montreal | Oct 22, 2018 5:28:27 AM | 96

In my experience:

Charity and compassion were at one time almost synonymous. Neither meant alms giving, although both could include that action.

With the professionalization of fundraising 'charities' the meaning of the word became more restricted to the giving of alms, which allowed the alternative word, compassion, to become more frequently used when cash was not involved.

Posted by: Castellio | Oct 22, 2018 6:07:18 AM | 97

Just the Russian attempts to try and minimize civilian casualties in Syria versus NATO's attitude on the question shows the vast divide present. Which nations are tolerant thus ipso facto humanitarian and which aren't? IMO, the divide is very stark. One side says There's No Alternative, while the other says Another World's Possible that dignifies people rather than denigrating them.
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 21, 2018 5:20:19 PM | 57

Charity and compassion were at one time almost synonymous. Neither meant alms giving, although both could include that action.
Posted by: Castellio | Oct 22, 2018 6:07:18 AM | 96

The word Putin used, 'miloserdiye' I have seen most often translated as 'mercy' ... "Readiness to help someone or to forgive someone out of empathy or philanthrophy."
Posted by: ДжММ | Oct 22, 2018 1:52:21 AM | 87

Just to add to the chorus: the older meaning of charity is intimately related with compassion because it means giving to/helping/supporting others, especially those in need or those worthy of support. Giving refers not just to the giving of money or material things but also immaterial things such as moral support, agreement, tolerance, ... therefore charity is closely related to tolerance as well. It includes ideas and thoughts, and concern about wellbeing. To be charitable to someone can mean having positive and encouraging mental disposition towards. This relates closely to Jim's dictionary entry "readiness to help someone or to forgive someone out of empathy or philanthrophy", although I don't see mercy as a particularly good word for that. In a debating context the expression "to be charitable to" [the interlocutor] means conceding an aspect of the debate. Uncharitable can mean refusing to concede to the views of others.

All of that is the complete opposite of EGO. Charity means reducing / transcending / working against ego - absolutely central to all spirituality.

This should make clear the thrust of the Metropolitan Tikhon/President Putin exchange, which I would assume (I haven't read the transcript yet) refers in large measure to the culture gap between the Unipolar world and the Multipolar world. The USA is the epitomy of the EGO - therefore lacking charity in the broad sense. It is easy to see where the US culture stands relative to this exchange. If you monetise charity it becomes worthless in the spiritual dimension, because charity in it's very essence must involve giving in the heart, giving something from the heart, sincerity otherwise it is not charity at all.

Posted by: BM | Oct 22, 2018 8:46:37 AM | 98

Empathy is to feel what others feel. It applies to all emotions, happiness, sadness, etc.

Compassion is the urge to help. Sometimes we say one is "moved" to help.

Mercy and charity are "acts of compassion". When someone has proven that they are willing to act in such a way, we say they are merciful, charitable, or compassionate.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 22, 2018 9:40:01 AM | 99

So Trump unilaterally gets U.S. out of nuclear treaty and now sends his pitbull with glasses and bushy mustache to bark at Putin.

https://www.rt.com/news/441909-peskov-inf-world-dangerous/

First the Iran deal now this. My advice to Iran and Russia: Trump is going to escalate the U.S. nuclear arsenal. Get busy protecting selves with same. Trump and Netanyahoo are two hotheads playing with fire.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 22, 2018 10:54:34 AM | 100

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