Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 14, 2018

Settling The Khashoggi Case Is A Difficult Matter

The negotiation over the Khashoggi case will be extremely difficult. The protagonists are headstrong and dangerous people. The issue could easily escalate.

The Ottoman empire ruled over much of the Arab world. The neo-Ottoman wannabe-Sultan Recep Tayyip Erdogan would like to regain that historic position for Turkey. His main competition in this are the al-Sauds. They have much more money and are strategically aligned with Israel and the United States, while Turkey under Erdogan is more or less isolated. The religious-political element of the competition is represented on one side by the Muslim Brotherhood, 'democratic' Islamists to which Erdogan belongs, and the Wahhabi absolutists on the other side.

There are more tactical aspects to this historic conflict. When the Saudis cut ties with Qatar it was Turkey that sent its military to prevent a Saudi invasion of the tiny but extremely rich country. This gave Erdogan the financial backing he urgently needs. In response to that the Saudis offered several $100 millions to prop up the YPK/PKK proxy force the U.S. uses to occupy north-east Syria. These Kurdish groups fight a guerrilla war within Turkey and are a threat to its unity.

The effective Saudi ruler, clown prince Mohammad bin Salman (MbS), made a huge mistake when he ordered the abduction (or murder) of the Saudi journalist Khashoggi in Istanbul. The botched operation gave Erdogan a tool to cut the Saudis to size.

But he needs U.S. support to achieve that. The recent release of the U.S. pastor (and CIA asset) Andrew Brunson is supposed to buy him good will with U.S. President Donald Trump. But Trump build his Middle East policy on his Saudi relations. He can not go berserk on them. Some solution must be found.


Khashoggi was a rather shady guy. A 'journalist' who was also an operator for Saudi and U.S. intelligence services. He was an early recruit of the Muslim Brotherhood:

Khashoggi’s intellectual interests were shaped in his early 20s when he studied in the United States and was also a passionate member of the Muslim Brotherhood. The brotherhood was a secret underground fraternity that wanted to purge the Arab world of the corruption and autocratic rule it saw as a legacy of Western colonialism.

Khashoggi helped in the U.S./Saudi/Pakistani project to destabilize Afghanistan. He met and interviewed Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan and Sudan. The man with the RPG in the upper left picture is Jamal Khashoggi himself.


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Khashoggi became a protege of the longtime head of Saudi intelligence, Turki Faisal Al-Saud. He was engaged in several 'projects' in Afghanistan, Sudan and Algeria. Khashoggi followed Turki as 'media advisor' when he became ambassador in London and later in Washington DC.

Jamal Khashoggi supported the Muslim Brotherhood during the 'Arab Spring'. This was in line with the Hillary Clinton/Barack Obama supported regime change program for most of the Middle East. After the fall of President Mubarak in Egypt and the election win by the Brotherhood the Saudi rulers feared to be the next in line. They started to finance counter revolutions in Egypt and elsewhere. Under the reign of King Salman and his son the suppression of all aspects of Brotherhood influence intensified. Having lost his protection Khashoggi decided to leave Saudi Arabia:

Friends helped Khashoggi obtain a visa that allowed him to stay in the United States as a permanent resident.

Fred Hiatt, the neo-conservative editor of the Washington Post, hired him. The Post published his columns against the Saudi rulers in English and Arabic.

Recently Khashoggi started a number of projects that reek of preparations for a CIA controlled color-revolution in Saudi Arabia:

Jamal Khashoggi, a prolific writer and commentator, was working quietly with intellectuals, reformists and Islamists to launch a group called Democracy for the Arab World Now. He wanted to set up a media watch organization to keep track of press freedom.

He also planned to launch an economic-focused website to translate international reports into Arabic to bring sobering realities to a population often hungry for real news, not propaganda.

Part of Khashoggi’s approach was to include political Islamists in what he saw as democracy building.
...
Khashoggi had incorporated his democracy advocacy group, DAWN, in January in Delaware, said Khaled Saffuri, another friend. .. The project was expected to reach out to journalists and lobby for change, representing both Islamists and liberals, said another friend, Azzam Tamimi, a prominent Palestinian-British activist and TV presenter.
...
Tamimi said he and Khashoggi had set up a similar pro-democracy project together in 1992 when they first met. It was called Friends of Democracy in Algeria, he said, and followed the botched elections in Algeria, which the government annulled to avert an imminent Islamist victory.

Khashoggi has an enormous number of friends in Washington DC. Mainstream journalists see him as of one of their own. Like them, they feel, he does not deserve such ghastly fate. The neo-liberals as well as the neo-conservatives liked his 'regime change' Arab Spring support and his efforts against Saudi Arabia. Many people in Congress know him personally. They activated procedures under the Global Magnitsky Human Rights Accountability Act that will lead to sanctions against Saudi figures. Media, banks and well known personalities pulled out of a three-day financial conference in Riyadh dubbed “Davos in the Desert".

Trump is under pressure to 'do something', to punish the Saudis and especially MbS.

But Trumps Middle East policy depends on Saudi Arabia and on Mohammad bin Salman personally. MbS finances the U.S. occupation in Syria. Trump's son in law Jared Kushner build his 'peace plan' for Netanyahoo on Saudi endorsement. The sanctions against Iran can only be sustained if Saudi oil replaces the loss of Iranian output. Trump's 'Make America Great Again' program needs the Saudi demand for U.S. weapons. He also needs the Saudis to avoid utter defeat in Afghanistan. Last but not least Trump will perceive the Kashoogi issue as part of the anti-Trump campaign.

Former CIA director Brennan, an avid anti-Trumper, lobbies to dethrone Mohammad bin Salman over the case:

As someone who worked closely with the Saudis for many years, and who lived and worked as a U.S. official for five years in Saudi Arabia, I am certain that if such an operation occurred inside a Saudi diplomatic mission against a high-profile journalist working for a U.S. newspaper, it would have needed the direct authorization of Saudi Arabia’s top leadership — the crown prince.
...
I am confident that U.S. intelligence agencies have the capability to determine, with a high degree of certainty, what happened to Khashoggi. If he is found to be dead at the hands of the Saudi government, his demise cannot go unanswered — by the Trump administration, by Congress or by the world community. Ideally, King Salman would take immediate action against those responsible, but if he doesn’t have the will or the ability, the United States would have to act. That would include immediate sanctions on all Saudis involved; a freeze on U.S. military sales to Saudi Arabia; suspension of all routine intelligence cooperation with Saudi security services; and a U.S.-sponsored U.N. Security Council resolution condemning the murder.

The Saudis know what is coming and they are not without defenses. In response to the sanction threats they released a 'f*** you' statement and openly threaten that any sanctions will be responded to with some 30 painful measures:

Riyadh is the capital of its oil, and touching this would affect oil production before any other vital commodity. It would lead to Saudi Arabia's failure to commit to producing 7.5 million barrels. If the price of oil reaching $80 angered President Trump, no one should rule out the price jumping to $100, or $200, or even double that figure.

An oil barrel may be priced in a different currency, Chinese yuan, perhaps, instead of the dollar. And oil is the most important commodity traded by the dollar today.

All of this will throw the Middle East, the entire Muslim world, into the arms of Iran, which will become closer to Riyadh than Washington.
...
The US will also be deprived of the Saudi market which is considered one of the top 20 economies in the world.

These are simple procedures that are part of over 30 others that Riyadh will implement directly, without flinching an eye if sanctions are imposed on it, according to Saudi sources who are close to the decision-makers.

The truth is that if Washington imposes sanctions on Riyadh, it will stab its own economy to death, even though it thinks that it is stabbing only Riyadh!

The measures would also cause serious damage to Saudi Arabia. After they were published the Saudi stock market dropped sharply.

The U.S. dollar depends on the secret deal arranged in 1974 that recycles Saudi petro-dollars into U.S. treasuries. If the al-Sauds start to touch that corner stone of the relation, the U.S. will have to invade and smash their shitty country to smithereens. Mecca and Medina would be given back to the Hashemites now ruling Jordan, the Gulf coast line, which holds the oil and oil industry and is mostly inhabited by Shia, would become a state of its own. Yemen would regain its two northern provinces. The plans to do this have long been drawn.

Some solution must be found. The easiest one is for King Salman to fire his son and to reinstate Muhammad bin Nayef, who MbS had dethroned, as crown prince. Nayef is the CIA's man. But if Salman is unwilling or unable to do this, an excuse must be found for whatever  happened to Khashoggi.

The Saudis asked Erdogan to accept a "joint investigation" of the Khashoggi case. This was a request to come to some solution over the issue. Rumors speak of an opening offer of $5 billion as compensation. The Saudi King dispatched the respected governor of Makkah province, Prince Khalid_bin_Faisal_Al_Saud, to Ankara to arrange a deal. The EU3, UK, France and Germany, urge both sides to use this mechanism.

The process to close the case, if both sides wish to do so, is pretty clear:

In statements [..] President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has stopped short of directly accusing the Saudis. Turkish officials have said their president has held his fire in part because he hopes that Washington will help push Saudi Arabia to acknowledge what happened to Mr. Khashoggi.
...
Some of Saudi Arabia’s allies in Washington acknowledge that pressure from the United States could force the kingdom to offer some account of Mr. Khashoggi’s fate — even if it is a modified version that shields the kingdom’s day-to-day ruler, Crown Prince Mohammed, from any responsibility.

Some 'rogue element' of the Saudi state could admit that it killed Khashoggi. MbS would deny any knowledge. But fifteen of his most trusted men, those who were seen in Istanbul, would have to be punished. (How would the rest of his body guard react to that?)

The real problem is that both sides, Erdogan and MbS, are extremely headstrong. For both men the issue is much bigger than the Khashoggi case. The conflict has historic, strategic and very personal dimensions. That makes it difficult to find a deal.

Erdogan knows that he is extremely lucky that MbS committed this stupid act under the nose of his secret service. It gives him a tool to cut the Saudis to size. He will introduce new evidence bit by bit to increase the outrage over the case and the pressure on Saudi Arabia.

MbS on the other side will do his utmost to keep his position. He might even let his father die a sudden death should King Salman decide to fire him. Khashoggi was clearly a danger to the throne. MbS probably feels that he did the right thing and does not deserve any criticism over it. After all, abduction and, if needed, murder of dissidents in foreign countries are a long standing Saudi policy that never caused any serious uproar.

Mohammad bin Salman has one mighty ally that may help him to decrease the noise in Congress and the 'do something' pressure on Trump.

The Zionists already recognize that helping MbS is in their interest:

Khashoggi and the Jewish question

Eran Lerman, the vice president of the Jerusalem Institute for Strategic Studies and a former deputy national security council head, said: “It is certainly not in our interests to see the status of the Saudi government diminished in Washington.
...
Lerman envisions a scenario where Jewish political organizations in Washington – such as the American Jewish Committee, which he once worked for as head of its Israel office – may actually go to Capitol Hill, as they have done in the past, and discreetly lobby for the Saudis, something that could paradoxically bring the two countries even closer together.

None of the protagonists of this geopolitical drama deserve any pity. Erdogan, Trump and MbS are thugs. Khashoggi was a willing tool in the destruction of many lives. Seeing these people at each others throat is highly entertaining.

But the conflict is also dangerous. It could escalate into something much bigger that could be painful for many people. Unfortunately there seems to be no one who could talk sense to these people and get them to bury the case.

While I earlier thought that the case would be settled rather sooner than later, I now expect the conflict to go on for weeks or months while collateral damage will accumulate around it.

Posted by b on October 14, 2018 at 01:59 PM | Permalink

Comments
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I am telling you right now that if such things like overtaking arabistan from al saud happens mecca and madina wont be given to hashemites. You are way off the mark b. Among the muslims i know and the hate for alsaud is real and it didnt start yesterday.

Posted by: Occidentosis | Oct 14, 2018 2:21:49 PM | 1

This is beginning to feel like the Skripal incident. Where is the evidence? I have not heard the alleged recordings in the MSM. Where is the fiancee? She allegedly authored an article in the NYT but I have not seen her interviewed in the MSM. I have no doubt that MbS is capable of this but where is the evidence???

Posted by: TheBAG | Oct 14, 2018 2:46:28 PM | 2

@2

How about the fact that the man is a prominent critic of the regime, and, well.....would you be able to get a statement from him? Have the Saudis offered any other theories other than "fake news"? I don't think so. Erdogan wouldn't manufacture this, but he would certainly use it to his advantage. Also, Saudi is ostensibly an ally and Russia is ... well.... a scapegoat "hostile foreign power."

So no, not the same at all.

Posted by: Mark | Oct 14, 2018 2:52:33 PM | 3

Meanwhile, Qassim Soleimani is drinking his tea, smiling, thanking his good fortune for not even having to move a finger for things to go sour between his enemies.

TheBAG -2
Basically, you're wondering if all this was actually part of the planned colour revolution, and to an extent planned by Kashoggi, who would be quietly alive and safe somewhere, unseen? Possible. The real trick, though, is that Erdogan doesn't seem to be in on the plan, since I don't see him plotting with the US to overthrow MBS - not unless he's been promised a new ruler that would be very kind towards Turkey, which seems doubtful. And if Turkey isn't part of a plan, that makes an anti-MBS conspiracy far less likely - at least way riskier to do this in Turkey. Well, we'll see what happen...

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Oct 14, 2018 3:05:43 PM | 4

The 'Globalists', who are desperate to get rid of both Trump and MbS, are unlikely to let this opportunity go until they draw blood. At a minimum, to get rid of MbS.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Oct 14, 2018 3:09:15 PM | 5

Time to call in the new successful ME reconciliation team. The Russians.

If they can be dragged away from laughing their heads off in Moscow that is.

Posted by: JohninMK | Oct 14, 2018 3:16:43 PM | 6

Since he got lost at the saudis' the culprit is obvious. Why deny it? Sounds like western media, politicians that equally refuse to slam Saudiarabia.

Posted by: Zanon | Oct 14, 2018 3:21:58 PM | 7

Thanks for the story 'b'. Unfortunately a few people will talk to this on the Sunday news shows and then this is over. If the Israelis can kill American citizens with impunity then it should be no problem for the Saudis to kill a mere permanent resident even if he was an asset. I'm sure some one has already thought up a way to blame this on Iran.

Posted by: BraveNewWorld | Oct 14, 2018 3:24:23 PM | 8

if Khashoggi is alive the Saudis could solve this problem instantly just by bringing him out and claiming he fled back to KSA to avoid Assassins sent by Iran (or Russia, or Turkey or anything really). If he was alive he would have been put out there by now before Trump and every other major power started harping on them (it will be very hard for Trump, Turkey, UK, Canada, etc... to back track on their stated concerns regarding what happened to Khashoggi). As for the allegations Khashoggi was Tortured, killed and then dismembered it simply doesn't matter if its' true or not at this point, if Khashoggi is dead there's no way to prove he wasn't tortured short of admitting that they killed him and then giving the body over for an autopsy to prove they didn't torture him before hand (note that this doesn't solve the problem of admitting they killed him in the first place). no idea how this will play out long-term, but Trump, the US, UK and Canada have invested way to much in KSA (the $400 billion dollar arms deal, keeping oil under $80/barrel, Yemen, Syria, The Israeli / Palestinian "peace plan", the Sanctions against Iran, etc...) to let one little crown prince's fit of pique shatter their grand plan for the middle east, the US/world economy, the looming trade war vs China & Russia

Posted by: Kadath | Oct 14, 2018 3:32:03 PM | 9

Received from a friend today that passed this on and stated that there is nothing near to this in the US (so called) Press......? Right ON!

As a ex FSO (foregin service officer), who keeps up with many friends still active,
this article sets the basis for possible a 'rational' discussion of how all of the nations, especially the US, should address this. Not clear that we a 'up to it,' but it's more likely with this piece. You should be congratulated for presenting the best analysis that I've seen, certainly in this coutnry.

How does one sign up with your (don't include wiht the above).

F. Scott Bush
Washington, DC, USA

Posted by: scott bush | Oct 14, 2018 3:44:10 PM | 10

#5 Thanks LOL

Posted by: jo6pac | Oct 14, 2018 3:48:19 PM | 11

When elephants fight, the grass suffers. In other words a gigantic clusterfuck. Several fuses are burning in the region. The probability that this - presumable - murder will trigger a major war is high.

Posted by: Pnyx | Oct 14, 2018 4:01:31 PM | 12

I haven't seen it reported that Trump didn't like khashoggi but don't have a link

This is all about continuing to control the global geo-political narrative. And continuing the war economy.

Why is humanity a slave to the belching and farting of monotheistic religions? These folks believe in faith over reason and are a drag on human advancement.......is the West ever going to make it all the way through the Enlightenment period and reject monotheistic religions for the Darwinian dead end they really are?

Is humanity ever going to have an adult discussion about open versus closed forms of social organization? Certainly not if we continue to focus on returning to or continuing the past.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 14, 2018 4:35:01 PM | 13

It has been said that Saudi oil reserves are not what they are supposed to be and that is the main reason the Aramco float was pulled - Saudi did not wish to reveal the true state of its reserves. It is also said that Saudi’s war in Yemen is about Saudi’s attempt to grab Yemen’s oil.

If this is so, it is information Saudi would not want to get out, which might explain their very public killing (if this is what happened) of someone possibly in a position to reveal their secret. Others would certainly be warned off. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

Posted by: Montreal | Oct 14, 2018 4:38:33 PM | 14

This is a very big game, and so far Erdogan is in pole position. The Turks are the ones who got the best cards in their hands. The Saudis will have to pay a big price to buy Turkey's silence about what happened to Kashoggi. It's nothing less than a game changer in the rivalty between Turkey/Qatar/Muslim Bros vs the Saudis,Gulf allies and Wahhabis.

And in the middle of this, Turks have released that US pastor. Not necessarily linked with Kashoggi, but now it's US turn to give something, and they better give it if they don't want to loose Turkey completely. Turkey has definitely the upper hand.

And for the global game, let's see how France, the UK and Germany will react to this. Looks like they'll go against the Saudis. If they blame and accuse them strongly, backed by MSM, that means a major shift of policy by the Deep State, with serious repercussions that could go as far as Trump's impeachment.

Posted by: Jean | Oct 14, 2018 4:40:13 PM | 15

MbS is quite literally too stupid to live.

Posted by: dervish | Oct 14, 2018 4:42:55 PM | 16

I have felt for a few days now that mbs is toast. Someone inside SA just has to make sure that he is toast. Once that happens SA can move on and reestablish its relations with the rest of the world and the international financial community. The King must have some special body guards that could carry out the assassination.

This would be one very positive development possibly leading to the end of the Yemen war and withdrawal of Saudi support for the Syrian jihadists.

That is the optimistic scenario.

Posted by: ToivoS | Oct 14, 2018 4:53:00 PM | 17

I'm with those laughing Russians!

Of most interest was the citation by the Al-Arabia News Channel article's author Turki Aldakhil that Saudi might fail to produce what I assume is its OPEC quota which he puts at 7.5 MBbs/D, which is 2.5 MBbs/D less than just a few years ago, which makes me wonder if Matt Simmons was correct but just a bit too early in his predictions about Saudi oil extraction. The author also states that "Riyadh is the capital of its [the World's] oil," a bold statement that's no longer valid. IMO, Saudi is now reduced to being the major "swing" producer since Iran and Venezuela are artificially restricted with the world's oil capital having relocated to Moscow. Where Aldakhil is correct is with petrodollar recycling and dollar hegemony, both of which would be devastated if Saudi suddenly switched up.

However, Aldakhil provides us with the following contradictions:

"All of this will throw the Middle East, the entire Muslim world, into the arms of Iran, which will become closer to Riyadh than Washington.

"This is all when it comes to oil, but Saudi Arabia is not just about oil, it is a leader in the Muslim world with its standing and geographical importance." [Contradictions bolded]

Why would "the entire Muslim world" thrown "into the arms of Iran" somehow thus "become closer to Riyadh"? How much is Saudi truly "a leader in the Muslim world" when "its standing" has nothing to do with anything moral or ethical but with its ability to buy-off and bribe--and few members of the Umma would agree that Wahhabism or its authoritarian government are Saudi assets.

This was very surprising:

"No one can deny that repercussions of these sanctions will include a Russian military base in Tabuk, northwest of Saudi Arabia, in the heated four corners of Syria, Israel, Lebanon and Iraq."

Has anyone heard anything about such a possibility?! And furthermore:

"At a time where Hamas and Hezbollah have turned from enemies into friends, getting this close to Russia will lead to a closeness to Iran and maybe even a reconciliation with it."

Gee, I thought Hamas and Hezbollah were still at loggerheads. And MbS reconciling seemingly so easily with Iran?! Apparently, Zarif's olive branch after Trump's insult made a distinct impression. Amazing! I wonder how the sides align within CIA and Trump's Zionist-neocons. IMO, Nuttyahoo would side with Outlaw US Empire invasion of Saudi for share of its spoils, not remain neutral or actually defend Saudi against attack, as it might if the aggressor were Iran. Indeed, given the major failure to establish the Yinon Plan, gaining control of Saudi would probably be seen as an okay consolation prize. And given their proven propensity for backstabbing/double-dealing, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Outlaw US Empire, UK (perhaps all NATO) and Zionistan turn on their erstwhile friend.


Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 14, 2018 4:54:17 PM | 18

Consider this.

1. The empire is siding with a faction opposed to MBS and his plans to modernize and remake Saudis economy and become less dependent on oil and the petrodollar. MBS may be deemed less controllable than others.

2. John Bradley is a former colleague of Mr Khashoggi's .In an article called for The Spectator he said Khashoggi 'had dirt' on the kingdom's links to al-Qaeda before the terror attacks on September 11, 2001.

Khashoggi befriended Osama bin Laden in the 1980s and 1990s in Afghanistan and Sudan.At the time, he was employed by Saudi intelligence services to persuade bin Laden to make peace with the Saudi royal family.

Ultimately, he was one of the only persons outside the royal family who knew details of their links to bin Laden.

3 .Turki bin Faisal Al-Sabud wasKhashoggi’s political protector. During the reign of King Khalid , Turki bin Faisal Al-Saud was at the center of relations between Washington and Saudi Arabia working against the USSR while it was in Afghanistan, with the help of foreign fighters ( who later became known as Al Qaeda) . Following the end of the war in Afghanistan in 1982, Fahd bin Abdulaziz Al Saud became king until 2005.

During this period, Faisal became a leader within Saudi intelligence, leading to him becoming the undisputed leader. He was conveniently removed from his post in May 2001, a few months before September 11 (in the US a similar change happened at the FBI with Mueller taking over right before the attacks) .

From 2003 to 2005, Turki bin Faisal served as ambassador to the UK and took Khashoggi his personal advisor.

In 2005, Turki bin Faisal was appointed Saudi ambassador to the US during the Bush administration, with Khashoggi accompanying him as a media advisor.

Faisal in subsequent years was sued along with other Saudi operatives by relatives of 9/11 victims


4. Last March a US District Court judge in Manhattan ruled that 9/11 victims' lawsuits against Saudi Arabia under the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act (JASTA) have standing and will go to trial.
I would think the victims would want to bring Khashoggi to the stand given his knowledge of Bin Laden and Faisal, and his accessibility as a US resident (cant hide him in Saudi Arabia)

Sadly this potential witness is unavailable. Who knows what secrets might have emerged under oath that would be inconvenient to those in US and Saudi Arabia should they be revealed

So Khashoggi’s disappearance removes him as a potential witness, protecting a faction of the Saudi Royals in power in 2001 and those in US at the time, and helps pave the way for the removal of a young MBS who wants to modernize Saudi Arabia and attract investment dollars in competition with the US. His removal from power serves the interests of both the Empire , Turkey and Khashoggi himself (assuming he is alive and in a safe house somewhere)

I don’t know what the real story is but I question anything MSM and those they serve are trying to push

Posted by: Pft | Oct 14, 2018 4:56:59 PM | 19

TheBAG @2, Clueless Joe @3, dh-mtl @4

Yeah, the possibility that this is engineered to bring down the KSA monarchy is intriguing. 'Security guarantees' for Israel will mean nothing as long as a King with absolute power can change his outlook on a whim. The Israel-Saudi love fest lasts only as long as they face a common enemy in Iran.

Along those lines, wouldn't anyone that is being tortured or threatened with death inform his attackers that he has recorded what they have done/threatened? And if he did so (as is only logical) then how could it be that there is a recording of his being killed? The attackers would've removed his Apple watch immediately upon learning that it is recording them.

Note 1: We are told that they taped killing is gruesome which implies that they didn't kill him immediately so he had time to tell them that he was recording them.

Note 2: The other possibility is that Khashoggi didn't know that his watch was recording(!). In that case, did his fiance start the recording without telling him? (honeypot scenario)

Whatever the truth of his disappearance, these are incredible events.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 14, 2018 5:29:18 PM | 20

It's pretty obvious that Saudi wealth parked in the West will be confiscated, and rather sooner than later. This is the lowest hanging fruit, given the West's own financial travails and desperate need for resources. In fact, all of the "Magnitsky" legislation passed in the US and the UK - while ostensibly aimed at Russia - in reality is focused on Gulf Arab money first and foremost. Luckily, there is plenty of human rights issues there to legalize the seizure. Lybia's template can be easily replicated elsewhere in the region - you freeze the assets, de-legitimize the regime, then dissolve the country, and as a result there is no claimant on the funds anymore. The Arab oil fairy tale is fast drawing to a close. Saudis played the game they never had any chance of winning, and got burned.

Posted by: telescope | Oct 14, 2018 5:31:58 PM | 21

Pft

Great info. His possible role as 'star witness' in a 9-11 trial makes it even more strange that he would walk into a Saudi embassy/consulate (especially in a non-Western country).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 14, 2018 5:34:25 PM | 22

One wonders what the Khashoggi family thinks of JK's disappearance and what its members might do or plan to do?

JK is a nephew of the arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi (died 2017) and a grandson of Mohammad Khaled Khashoggi, a Turkish doctor who married a Saudi woman and who became personal physician to King Abdulaziz al Saud, the founder of Saudi Arabia. (In Turkish, the name is Kaşıkçı and means "spoon maker".)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Khashoggi

Interesting tidbit is that a cousin of JK died in a Paris tunnel in 1997. The cousin's mother was Samira Khashoggi.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samira_Khashoggi

In short, the family appears to have fingers in many pies and could be quite influential in indirect ways. It surely must have backers among the Saudi royals, not least among them Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal and his immediate relatives.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 14, 2018 5:36:29 PM | 23

Pft @19--

Excellent point about Khashoggi having insider 911 knowledge neither Deep State nor Saudi would want disclosed.

Montreal @14-- Please see my 18. I should add the 8.5 MmBs/D is for export, not total extraction. Please see linked graph as what's being discussed is known as Net Exports, which are being impacted by increased domestic consumption and increasing rate of depletion, the latter isn't shown but was the primary topic of Simmon's book Twilight in the Desert. Getting any accurate info on the global rate of depletion is very difficult, but it's likely currently 9% and wasn't helped by the contrived oil price collapse in 2014, which greatly hamstrung exploration. Ironically, sanctions on Iran's oil only help to prolong its reserves, same with Venezuela. However, I don't think Khashoggi was privy to that particular info.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 14, 2018 5:48:56 PM | 24

None of the protagonists of this geopolitical drama deserve any pity. Erdogan, Trump and MbS are thugs. Khashoggi was a willing tool in the destruction of many lives. Seeing these people at each others throat is highly entertaining.

agreed. and just imagine how putin, assad and iran feel. a classic case of "let's you and him fight". also amusing to once again see "plucky democracy (The Only One In the Middle East!tm)" israel siding with the cavemen of riyadh.

http://thespiritscience.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/putin.jpg

Posted by: the pair | Oct 14, 2018 5:52:53 PM | 25

Khashoggi was clearly one of the back room/middle men that like to infest the murky depths of this curupt world.
But he was allso a journalist ! A week ago we lost a brave Bulgarian investergative journalist called ——-
Victoria Marinova (murdered) reaserching Bulgarian/EU curuption. I understand this year alone 42 journalist’s have been killed ! Clearly they are at risk, they know stuff the curupt would like to keep hidden. But it’s this trend that concerns me, this a brutal form of censorship ! Acting to deter others from digging to deep.
For that reason we need to investergate harder and deeper, more often to give the curupt a message that there mafia style crap won’t work but will be counter productive.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 14, 2018 5:53:31 PM | 26

Ziad, owner of SyrPers, has his own merit-bearing hypothesis regarding events within the Saudi Consulate. I won't give it away, but its scenario was already mentioned on day 1 of this event. Ziad's writing style, like b's, is entertaining!

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 14, 2018 6:15:48 PM | 27

@ Jackrabbit 20,

I'm pretty sure the apple watch story was invented so that the Turka don't have to admit the Saudi embassy was bugged. The apple watch story offers the Turks plausible (just barely) deniability.

Posted by: lysander | Oct 14, 2018 6:55:19 PM | 28

karlof1

Thanks for the link. Ziad's belief that the Turks have access to video/audio form inside the Consulate would explain why Khashoggi didn't tell the Saudis that he was recording them (as I described in my comment @20).

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 14, 2018 6:57:53 PM | 29

Sharmine Narwani's take on the alarabia article and thread full of additional comments. The "vacuum in Riyadh" will be filled.

Jackrabbit @29--

What do you think of Ziad's cause for Khashoggi's demise?

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 14, 2018 7:10:29 PM | 30

At the time in March 2018, I thought the global oligarchs couldn’t be so dense not to reflect on MbS rounding up the Saudi Princes and torturing them to transfer their wealth to his family’s state coffers. Bill Gates (US globalist #2 after Jeff Bezos) visiting days later couldn’t be so clueless not to realize that what goes around comes around.

It is starting to look like the US mid-terms will be a split call. The Senate going to the Nationalists and perhaps the House to the Globalists. Donald Trump is attacking the new world order with tariffs and sanctions. It is tragic that neither side gives a damn about the little people. Can the Saudi Crown Prince be disposed (against the will of the American President), without crashing the world’s economy? Not with this cast of western incompetents who are at each other’s throats.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Oct 14, 2018 7:22:31 PM | 31

karlof1 @30

Ziad thinks heart attack. He thinks the Saudis were going to perform an extraordinary rendition. But that would have also brought down extreme rebuke. And there is no guarantee that Khashoggi would not resume his anti-MbS campaign - in fact it might only strengthen his voice. This argues against 'heart attack' as cause of death. MbS would likely made the decided to silence him permanently. No rendition, just execution.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 14, 2018 7:28:46 PM | 32

Fadel's theory that abduction was the aim and reason for sending a fifteen man team sounds plausible, but then why would they carve up the carcass to sneak it out of the embassy when they had planned to cart a complete living body back to SA.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 14, 2018 7:37:25 PM | 33

VietnamVet@31

It was not just a transfer of wealth that motivated him. MBS was looking to crack down on his opponents. Jared Kushner during a visit late 2017 provided him with a list of names that US intelligence had listened in on plotting against him. He then went after them. MBS later bragged he had Kushner in his back pocket. Kushners security clearance was then downgraded because MBS is deemed a threat to elements in the empire. Kushner is basically an Israeli controlled operative working to build an alliance between Israel and MBS.

Posted by: Pft | Oct 14, 2018 7:56:22 PM | 34

On the idea of an anti-MBS conspiracy, I don't think the US would be in on it. It would be a Muslim Brotherhood plot with both Khashoggi and Erdogan high in the organization and clever enough to pull it off, with the Turks in control of the wohle scene and oh-so-lucky. Most likely scenario, I think. MBS may be a stupid inbred, but how stupid can one be? The consequences of such a stunt should have been clear to everybody.

Adnan Khashoggi btw had his fingers deep in the early financing of the disinfo arm of the "9/11 truth movement".

Posted by: CE | Oct 14, 2018 8:32:57 PM | 35

Peter AU 1 @ 33: JK's body had to be taken back to the KSA for proof that the 15-man team had indeed had him in their custody. If they had returned empty-handed, they could have been accused of helping him escape and they would sure not want to face MbS's wrath.

JK's body had to be carved up so it could be transported back to the KSA in diplomatic bags marked accordingly. Such bags will be exempt from airport seizure and searches. The Saudi consulate would already have empty bags available for transporting documents. Perhaps Turkish authorities should check if an order for more bags had been suddenly placed with the supplier by the Saudi consulate on the day JK disappeared, or in the days afterwards.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 14, 2018 8:36:59 PM | 36

Why is humanity a slave to the belching and farting of monotheistic religions? These folks believe in faith over reason and are a drag on human advancement.......is the West ever going to make it all the way through the Enlightenment period and reject monotheistic religions for the Darwinian dead end they really are? Is humanity ever going to have an adult discussion about open versus closed forms of social organization? Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 14, 2018 4:35:01 PM | 13

"Lulled into such an opium-like listlessness of vacant, unconscious reverie
is this absent-minded youth by the blending cadence of waves with thoughts,
that at last he loses his identity; takes the mystic ocean at his feet for the visible image of that deep, blue, bottomless soul, pervading mankind and nature; and every strange, half-seen, gliding, beautiful thing that eludes him; every dimly-discovered, uprising fin of some undiscernible form, seems to him the embodiment of those elusive thoughts that only people the soul by continually flitting through it. In this enchanted mood, thy spirit ebbs away to whence it came; becomes diffused through time and space; like Wickliff’s sprinkled Pantheistic ashes, forming at last a part of every shore the round globe over."

In this mystical scene in Moby Dick by Herman Melville (35.10) Ishmael feels himself dissolving into the natural world, losing track of the boundary between the self and
the world. The key word here, which Melville uses in the passage, is "Pantheistic."

Pantheism is the belief that God and the world are the same thing.

God’s not just in the world, but absolutely equivalent to it, and everything that exists is divine. This means that the individual believer, who is also a part of the world, is a divine part of God, as well. It’s interesting to contrast the ways Ishmael feels himself to be united to all of creation and to God at this transcendent moment. It reminds us of the central tenets of American Romanticism and Transcendentalism in the mid-nineteenth century—especially of the writings of Ralph Waldo Emerson and even the anti-clerical dialogs authored by Mexico's Great Man of Letters, Ignacio Manuel Altamirano in his crystal-like novela: Christmas in the Mountains . It also reminds us how different Ishmael is from Ahab, Starbuck, Stubb, and Flask, and perhaps from the reader him or herself. (but NOT from our friend psychohistorian!)

Posted by: Guerrero | Oct 14, 2018 8:41:39 PM | 37

What will this murderous blunder do to affect Saudi's Seat on the United Nations Human Rights Council?

Regular airstrikes and a special missile attack on a School Bus full of children didn't seem to phase the U.N..

Or Heather Nauert. Or Trump.

Posted by: fast freddy | Oct 14, 2018 8:58:51 PM | 38

psycho 13,

The much deeper problem is that rational objectivity is premised on an all-knowing entity. That there is a state of pure knowledge, as opposed to the fact that information is as dependent on reception as transmission. There has to be some frame or metric to calibrate the signal in the noise. The whole function of social order and control is instilling into the population that the community/tribe/religion/state is the larger frame by which the signal is determined. Consider that as monotheism declined over the last several centuries, it was replaced by various ideologies, to recreate a sense of an overall frame.
What is needed is a more binary, yin/yang understanding, where we know every such coin has two sides. Consider politics, for example. Every society that ever existed has both liberal and conservative elements, since liberalism is the organic social expansion propelling it out and onward, with conservatism as the cultural and civil forms coalescing around it and giving it structure and organization. Like youth and age.
The reason they are now so much in conflict is the degree to which our financial medium is being used to siphon value out of the community, not circulate it for the betterment of the community. Leaving the population polarized along fundamental sides of the coin.
Money is an accounting device/voucher system, holding large societies together, not a commodity to be mined from the community and environment. The idea of saving it as a store of value is flawed, as it is just a promise and it is too easy to make promises, than create real value. Consider blood is the body's medium and fat is the store, or for cars, roads are the medium and parking lots are the store. We need to go back to economics as a reciprocal function and save value in stronger communities and healthier environments, not suck it out to give to the banks.
Banking is at its; "Let them eat cake moment." It will eventually come to face the fact that it serves a larger function within the community, as monarchies had to face the fact they exist to serve the community, not just be served by it.

Posted by: John Merryman | Oct 14, 2018 8:59:16 PM | 39

At a price Erdogan can run an investigation that goes nowhere. The Clown Prince may be happy to give him a few extra bucks. This seems like a perfect opportunity for a handsome shakedown. In any case it will be interesting what kinda conversation Jared has with his buddy MbS and what he informs his papa-in-law.

What is fascinating is the op-ed that neocon Hiatt has written in the CIA rag WaPo. What is the agenda of the ziocons here?

Much that doesn't meets the eye here.

Posted by: ab initio | Oct 14, 2018 9:13:06 PM | 40

@ John Merryman who wrote:
"
The much deeper problem is that rational objectivity is premised on an all-knowing entity.
"
Why not awe of our ignorance of the Cosmos instead of an entity that can be manipulated by the sociopaths?

"
That there is a state of pure knowledge, as opposed to the fact that information is as dependent on reception as transmission. There has to be some frame or metric to calibrate the signal in the noise. The whole function of social order and control is instilling into the population that the community/tribe/religion/state is the larger frame by which the signal is determined. Consider that as monotheism declined over the last several centuries, it was replaced by various ideologies, to recreate a sense of an overall frame.
"
I agree to a point. I think there is science "fact" and then what you describe. I agree with the need for frame but again argue about moving that frame recognizably over into the reason side rather than the faith side.

"
Every society that ever existed has both liberal and conservative elements, since liberalism is the organic social expansion propelling it out and onward, with conservatism as the cultural and civil forms coalescing around it and giving it structure and organization.
"
This may describe the West but not the rest of the cultures existent or destroyed by the West social disease.

"
The reason they are now so much in conflict is the degree to which our financial medium is being used to siphon value out of the community, not circulate it for the betterment of the community............We need to go back to economics as a reciprocal function and save value in stronger communities and healthier environments, not suck it out to give to the banks.
"
AGREED!

Thanks for the discussion.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 14, 2018 9:24:37 PM | 41

RE: Khashoggi discussion

Another interesting article on his background here

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/10/14/did-saudis-cia-fear-khashoggi-9-11-bombshell.html

One point brought out in the article - Why didn't Khashoggi go to the US Saudi Arabia consulate rather than the the one in Turkey ?

Posted by: curious | Oct 14, 2018 9:47:12 PM | 42

Couple of random musings

The heart attack theory makes no sense to me. Problem solved- he is out of the picture. Call the Turkish police to take the body away. If there are bruises , just say he had a seizure before the heart attack.

If they wanted to kill him , have him escorted off the premises so video can capture the exit telling him he and his fiancee will be shot if he tries to escape and then get him in a car out of camera view that can’t be traced to any Saudi staff and do what you need to do elsewhere

Also they dont have to cart all the body pieces to Saudi Arabia for ID purposes, just the head will do.

I dont rule out him being killed and cut up at the embassy. I do think if such a thing happened that it was arranged by those Saudis who wanted MBS to take the fall. Indeed, perhaps the video and audio the Turks have were given to them by Saudis

As for the Turks having their own bugs in the embassy. I have to imagine every embassy in the world knows the risk of being spied on and have at least a couple of SCIF rooms that they know are secured for doing or saying secret stuff (like torture) given the difficulty to secure the entire building


Posted by: Pft | Oct 14, 2018 9:47:40 PM | 43

YeniSafak report dated 12 October 2018 says that Turkish security forces are planning to dig up various sites around Istanbul, including the garden of the consul-general's residence, to search for the remains of Jamal Khashoggi.
https://www.yenisafak.com/en/news/turkish-security-forces-to-dig-up-istanbul-sites-in-search-of-khashoggi-remains-3463348

Other news websites are quoting YeniSafak as stating that his body was "taken out" via the sewage system.

Middle East Eye corroborates YeniSafak's first statement and adds that Turkish authorities now have forensic evidence obtained from searches of the sewage network connected to the Saudi consulate.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-1433170798

Posted by: Jen | Oct 14, 2018 10:13:57 PM | 44

curious @42

Someone wrote in an earlier thread that he went to the Consulate in US but was directed to go one in Turkey 'cause his fiance is Turkish.

That seems strange, if true, because he was just getting divorce papers (AFAIK). Why would it matter where his fiance is, or is from?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 14, 2018 10:26:38 PM | 45

The most interesting part of this is - who organized the killing and to what purpose.
I tend to be thinking something along the lines of Pft's musings @43.
Bullshit from all sides - Turks say he was cut up with a meat saw.. hand saw or power saw.. meat saw is only needed for cutting nice neat T-bones, not for dissecting a carcass.. perhaps they did, who knows...

Is it part of US deep state vs the Trump MBS partnership, or is it Turk Muslim brotherhood vs Saudi Wahhabi.. or perhaps just MBS acting the clown prince..can't think of any other games in progress at the moment.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 14, 2018 10:37:09 PM | 46

Or maybe, since the rule of law no longer applies for the wealthy, the Saudis don't really care who knows they killed him.

Don't hold your breath waiting for the repercussions to manifest into anything that holds anyone responsible, you may turn blue..

Posted by: ben | Oct 14, 2018 11:23:25 PM | 47

off topic but not so far off topic as the Saudi Kingdom is responsible (and its gangster coalition backers, the UAE, USA and UK) for the deaths and injuries of every single one of these people, and all the horrible destruction. I hope that the clown prince is soon himself taken to the gallows, and this war ended


http://www.yemenwar.info/


"Below is a summary of the human casualties and destruction reported by the Legal Center for Rights and Development - a Yemeni local NGO - for 1000 days since the war started. You can view more details in their published report [here] or visit their website http://www.lcrdye.org/en.

The number of civilians that have died because of the indirect consequences of the Saudi coalition aggression are hardly taken into account. The LCRD estimates this number to be 160,000 civilians. These include people that died because of malnutrition after their families lost their source of income, and others that died because they couldn't get proper medical care.

children killed
2,887
women killed
2,027
men killed
8,689
children injured
2,722
women injured
2,233
men injured
16,857
Total Killed
13,603
Total Injured
21,812
Civilian Casualties
35,415

Posted by: michaelj72 | Oct 15, 2018 12:14:18 AM | 48

More musings

A lot of people were bummed out that Saudi Arabias plan to sell off 5% of Saudi Aramco has been put on hold

Imrahn Khan visited Saudi Arabia in September. A Saudi Arabian delegation went to Pakistan to discuss Pakistans invitation to partner in CPEC which is the Pakistan leg of BRICS. This would not make the US happy as they want to force Pakistan to go to the IMF

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/pakistan-saudi-arabia-imran-
khan-china-belt-road-infrastructure-project-a8550566.html%3famp

The Saudis still haven't locked in the arms deals Trump claimed was a done deal, and they're still talking to Russia about its advanced S-400 air defense system

Posted by: Pft | Oct 15, 2018 12:21:40 AM | 49

JackRabbit @44

I understood he was getting martied soon in Turkey and I imagine the papers are necessary for him and his fiancee to get a Turkish marriage license , which she would then need to apply in Turkey for a US visa. Its not always clear what you need with foreign mariages and visas so he may not have known while he was in the US. Its a long flight back and forth , and he was in Turkey so he went to the SaudisTurkish consulate. Its not like Turkey has great relations with Saudi Arabia so he may have felt safe there.

Posted by: Pft | Oct 15, 2018 12:30:29 AM | 50

John Merryman:"The much deeper problem is that rational objectivity is premised on an all-knowing entity."

"Why not awe of our ignorance of the Cosmos instead of an entity that can be manipulated by the sociopaths? That there is a state of pure knowledge, as opposed to the fact that information is as dependent on reception as transmission." Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 14, 2018 9:24:37 PM | 4

Thanks for the philosophical observation friends, again: My man Hermann is ALL OVER this one!
the acclaimed American author makes the case that the man who has NO God, the cannible Queequeg,
has the capacity to commune spiritually just as well as any white man assured of Christ's salvation.

Poor pagan ... strange to say, for all the heat of his sweatings, he caught a terrible chill which lapsed into a fever; and at last, after some days’ suffering, laid him in his hammock, close to the very sill of the door of death. How he wasted and wasted away in those few long-lingering days, till there seemed but little left of him but his frame and tattooing. But as all else in him thinned, and his cheek-bones grew sharper, his eyes, nevertheless, seemed growing fuller and fuller; they became of a strange softness of lustre; and mildly but deeply looked out at you there from his sickness, a wondrous testimony to that immortal health in him which could not die, or be weakened. And like circles on the water, which, as they grow fainter, expand; so his eyes seemed rounding and rounding, like the rings of Eternity. An awe that cannot be named would steal over you as you sat by the side of this waning savage, and saw as strange things in his face, as any beheld who were bystanders when Zoroaster died. For whatever is truly wondrous and fearful in man, never yet was put into words or books. And the drawing near of Death, which alike levels all, alike impresses all with a last revelation, which only an author from the dead could adequately tell. So that—let us say it again—no dying Chaldee or Greek had higher and holier thoughts than those, whose mysterious shades you saw creeping over the face of poor Queequeg, as he quietly lay in his swaying hammock, and the rolling sea seemed gently rocking him to his final rest, and the ocean’s invisible flood-tide lifted him higher and higher towards his destined heaven.

Posted by: Guerrero | Oct 15, 2018 12:57:13 AM | 51

Curious @ 42, Jack Rabbit @ 44:

Jamal Khashoggi needed to get a document to show Turkish authorities that he was divorced from a previous spouse so he could marry Hatice Cengiz, herself Turkish. Someone apparently advised him that getting the document from the Saudi consulate in Istanbul would be easier than getting it from the Saudi embassy in the United States.

One might consider the possibility that this person who advised JK could have been part of an entrapment scheme.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 15, 2018 1:07:03 AM | 52

Could this be part of the ongoing battle between the Salman faction and the Faisal faction in the Saudi royal family?

Posted by: ab initio | Oct 15, 2018 1:29:12 AM | 53

Well, b had said some days ago that somehow the MSM would be returning, on short notice, to put the focus on the "official baddies". And lo and behold, here comes the BBC ... Assad !! heinous Assad !! Look . Hey b, if you checked a grand every time you've been right...

Time to close that BBC rabble of a "report". Starting to feel my laptop soiled :P

Posted by: Colombianonymous | Oct 15, 2018 1:31:43 AM | 54

PFT 49
I suspect Trump would like Aramco to be under US company majority ownership. Can't have global energy dominance without controlling a majority share (or owning it outright) in Aramco.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 15, 2018 1:39:14 AM | 55

As habitual assassins themselves, the Israelis will have a purely instrumental attitude toward the killing; the motives will be transparent to them, as they should be to any rational person. Trump's appointments (Pompeo, Bolton, Haley) as well as Kushner, not to mention his actual behavior in office (the move to Jerusalem, increase of financial support for Israel) all point to Trump's strong alignment with Israel/Zionism/neocons, meaning that while expressing moral outrage for the cameras (and in order to take fresh meat away from the left), Trump will want what Israel wants: this story to go away as soon as possible. The consequent uproar caused by a bungled assassination threatens to upend what is left of Israel's Yinon plan by disintegrating their main ME ally against Iran. Except for the loss of some family oil revenues out of Kurdish north Syria and Iraq, they have no leverage over Erdogan that I know of. Israel's larger problem is a possible split within both Congress and the MSM in their unflinching support for the Israeli-Saudi axis. The Western moral outrage is just that - superficial posing. It is only when a building on "our" side of the Atlantic is destroyed, when "one of us" is snuffed, or one of "our" club members is killed in a way we can neither justify or sweep under the carpet that moral indignation arises. In the West, Israel has the news cycle on its side to bury the story, but not in Turkey. At what price can Erdogan be bought? The end of Saudi financial support for the Kurds in northern Syria will be required. That price in itself will doom the American/Israeli/NATO adventure in Syria, but is it enough to satisfy Erdogan? Like B, I think this story now has legs; there are too many interests that do not want this story to die, and the longer it goes on the more it will damage Israeli interests, the ability of politicos in the West to continue to sell arms to the Saudis, destabilize the price of oil, doom the effectiveness of sanctions against Iran, and undermine the fragile stability of the House of Saud. Either daddy is going to see sonny off or the entire dynasty risks being replaced by Western sycophants, wholly owned and operated by the CIA, acceptable to the Western press, yet still corrupt enough to support Israel. After all, the oil must continue to flow. What is moral outrage when money is involved? We just need to find the right price to sooth jangled sensibilities.

Posted by: JNDillard | Oct 15, 2018 2:05:59 AM | 56

Sometimes almost amusing MSM-Bot-Algorithm: "craigsummers" may have hit upon something a couple of days ago when he drearily invoked "the Skripals" and "Litvinenko." Why couldn't this be yet another MI6 concoction? It does have a sort of Mayfair Machiavelli flavor to it. One might imagine the release of "the gruesome video" being due to perfectionist editing over at Oscar winning White Helmet Studios.

Posted by: NOBTS | Oct 15, 2018 2:35:02 AM | 57

Just musing: So why would Five Eyes want to set up the House of Saud for a humanitarian invasion? Why, the loot of course; probably even more gold than Gaddafi or Sadaam. I recall reading somewhere a year or so ago (probably at MOA) that the KSA is the real low-hanging fruit for the empire hegemon. Sir Francis Drake would certainly not let that fat merchantman get away.

Posted by: NOBTS | Oct 15, 2018 2:52:50 AM | 58

Unfortunately there seems to be no one who could talk sense to these people and get them to bury the case.

BURY THE CASE???

WHY??? What happened to all the passionate outrage over Yemen? Has it suddenly been replaced by a future fictitious skyfall disaster that stands to hurt us all when instead this is the golden opportunity of this Century?

The only ones who want the JK case buried are Zionists, Trump and his neocon friends and MbS & royal co., and I'm certain you're not any of the last three unless you're included in the Trump friends group.

Unfortunately, the JK case just might get buried and that would put an end to the only hope for the planet I have seen so far in my lifetime. Erdogan has power in his hands and instead of seizing it, he just might do the spineless thing: bury the truth for immediate gratification from power-brokers he shouldn't trust, instead of cementing an indelible legacy as a historical game-changer. However, because he relinquished the moral high ground for some years now; he just might let this chance at greatness slip through his fingers and settle for becoming the pawn in the Zionist chessboard.

At this moment in time, MbS was ready to sell the Palestinians down river (betrayal), and continue his b.loody rampage in Yemen with billions-worth indefinite supply of U.S. arms, affixing yet another piece in the jigsaw that concludes in the Yinon map. Most importantly, if the Zionist obsession with Iran was turned to a more pressing problem like securing and filling the power vacuum in Saudi Arabia; then war with Iran would be delayed indefinitely while the U.S. and its Zionist parasite tackled the complex quest for control of Meccaland.

This barbaric act on JK by MbS could be the catalyst for the fall of the evil monarchy; an event that is the dream of millions trapped under their treacherous rule. Zionists who have protected their reign of terror would be weakened by such a fall. How could that be a disaster for humanity? Just the immediate consequences of: halting the staggering swindle being plotted by the Zionists' advocate Jared 666 and M-butcher-S and putting an end to the starvation of millions of Yemeni children would be A TRIUMPH for humanity! How can anyone spin this potential breakthrough into a fictitious disaster? Just like Syria was the domino meant to topple Iran averted so far by Russia; MbS was Plan B to that failed domino effect, but his insecurity made him reckless and led him to this giant blunder and opportunity for tectonic change and Erdogan has the power to either waste it and secure the Zionist plan or blow that plan sky high. If the gruesome m.urder was videotaped then it's time for the world to see it and SINK the corrupt tyranny.

Khashoggi was clearly a danger to the throne.

And MbS the Shakespearean villain prince who commits a barbaric act to save his crown and hopefully the moral of this tale will be that you can never k.ill the martyr; whatever his mission was in life, in d.eath it will multiply exponentially and become legendary and the moral of this tale is what Erdogan can set in motion.

Regardless, he was less than a saint; but like it or not, Khashoggi is the quintessential MARTYR. There is powerful Muslim symbolism at play that you are dismissing.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 3:25:11 AM | 59

@ NOBTS with the musing about the potential demise of KSA

Interesting scenario to which I would add that KSA being one of the the biggest holder of us debt/Treasuries would mean that KSA invasion could mean oil, gold and debt write off......what more could empire want?

I am NOT advocating any of the above........

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 15, 2018 3:30:24 AM | 60

@59

Plunder is illegal. The riches belong to the people unless the Empire wants to see a real clash of civilizations. I would think we moved beyond sir Drake.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 3:32:14 AM | 61

Thank you for this excellent 'explainer' piece. It is by far the best I have come across anywhere, with loads of excellent background information that puts everything in much clearer context. The old newspaper photo from '88 with Khashoggi holding an RPG is priceless! Kudos

Posted by: Deschutes | Oct 15, 2018 3:35:13 AM | 62

What more the Empire might want it's already got. Call it "Bondsteel South" fully stocked with familiar weapons and plenty of fuel handy. One wonders who's actually flying all those training missions over Yemen? Which Princes pilots, MBS' or Eric's?

Posted by: NOBTS | Oct 15, 2018 3:42:28 AM | 63

@TheBAG - This is beginning to feel like the Skripal incident. Where is the evidence?

The public evidence we have is the arrival and departure of two private Saudi jets (owned by the King) at Istanbul airport at the right times. This evidence is independent of Erdogan and the Sauds have given no reasonable explanation for the flights. (They claimed 'tourists' were on these flights.)

There is also the typical patter of a Saudi 'extraction' of dissidents. In Switzerland they drugged a prince and put him on a 'medical emergency flight' back to Riyadh. There are in total more than five such cases (linked in the piece above). It usual Saudi policy.

@Scott Bush - You should be congratulated for presenting the best analysis that I've seen, certainly in this country.

Thank you very much.

Posted by: b | Oct 15, 2018 3:52:03 AM | 64

@5
And that's not good, WHY? Who f...king cares who does it! MbS's blunder couldn't come at a better time! No one saw this coming so no side has the upper hand unless Erdogan caves to bribery.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 3:53:21 AM | 65

Can someone please enlighten me where's the injury to Turkey in this freak show? Wasn't the deed done on the consulate grounds, i.e., sovereign Saudi territory? It's not like Erdogan will lose his mind if a journalist gets hurt (and as B implies, if that journalist would be any good, he wouldn't have been with WaPo).

Also, since the hit/grab squad were hardcore MbS loyalists, one assumes well-trained, how is it remotely plausible that they took a video selfie of the moment supreme, only to promply leak it to the Turks? Just because Turkey says so?

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 15, 2018 4:51:55 AM | 66

b
Yikes! Not 15 Saudis in airplanes again! I think the phrase is "healthy skepticism." It's entirely possible that the official MSM narrative as it's revealed will be the actual story, true that is. On the other hand, as the "craigsummersmsmbot" revealed the other day this is yet another "botched operation" like Skripal-Litvenenko-Magnitsky-MH17-Turkish Coup,etc. Your article is a goldmine of information; so many threads to follow. One of the most interesting is the Muslim Brotherhood /Neo Ottoman model for the region. Now that would "reform" KSA alright. I bet Erdogan would love to have some oil, too bad the deal doesn't include the Yemeni fields--yet. Kashoggi a 9-11 witness! Amazing that he stayed alive as long as he did----and then he walked right into a trap! No street smarts I guess. Well, if any of this gets sorted out it will most likely be on your blog so I'll keep watching, Thanks!

Posted by: NOBTS | Oct 15, 2018 5:31:50 AM | 67

Jamal Khashoggi’s uncle Adnan Khashoggi was Saudi Arabi’s most prominent arms dealer who also participated in Iran-Contra. Jamal Khashoggi’s cousin Dodi Fayed dated Princess Diana when the two were killed in Paris. Let that sink in.

Posted by: Scott Rickard | Oct 15, 2018 6:25:13 AM | 68

I would remark that labels "Saudis" and "Muslim Brotherhood" are very confusing because they refer to groups with internal divisions. One can compare it with Enlightenment as a political movement. In USA it inspired a republican form of government, but in continental Europe it was used to rejuvenate absolute monarchies with a more rational ideology as few people were taking "divine right of the kings and emperors" seriously.

The analogy is that Muslim Brotherhood functions as opposition to absolute monarchy, military rule etc. which they connect to a "democratic and moderate" interpretation of Islam, I put it in quote because this is their own view, but some monarchs or princes find it attractive for similar reasons as Enlightenment was attractive to European feudal rulers in 18-th century. However, MB was also very checkered relationship with Salafists (Wahhabis? that is also complicated). Muslim Brother or not, Kashoggi was serving the cause of "liberal princes" according to his own written words.

What we have now is the internal struggle in the House of Saud. MbS changed the governing system in that House in his favor and went after the competing princes with vengeance, and given that those princes have considerable wealth stashed abroad and influence over Western institution that was build over decades, he cannot eradicate them too easily.

According to the Turkish version, Kashoggi knew about the trap and prepared himself to make it very costly for MbS in the eventuality of kidnapping or murder. It seems that what MbS people perceived as a trap for the most energetic stooge of the princely opponents was in the same time a trap set by those opponent, Kashoggi being a bait.

By the way, several years ago a deranged father-son pair demonstrated an amazingly effective method of assassination in Washington DC area. The only fault was that they were killing random victims which is of course easier. Dad was the driver, son was in the trunk that has small holes. Victims were tanking gas on gas stations and our characters were passing by, they used a long gun with a silencer. Only because of some idiocy police found them after a number of killings. If you can spare an effort to find out where the target is buying gasoline, groceries or take-out dinners this method seems applicable.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 15, 2018 6:36:25 AM | 69

The Americans want to replace the Clown Prince with someone more reliable. It princey-boy should arrange for the king to expire 'naturally' it will be civil war time. The U.S., having the attention span of a hamster, will be obssesed. Behind the scenes, Russia and China will steal marches.

Posted by: Robert McMaster | Oct 15, 2018 9:39:02 AM | 70

This mess really doesn't bode well for the people of Syria because Erdogan will insist both the US and SA return to the original "Assad must go" stupidity as a precondition for a favourable outcome of the joint investigation.
One can never be sure of how much of the mess is intentional and how much just serendipity but it is certainly worth noting that Kashoggi's squeeze , Hatice Cengiz is a long term member of Erdogan's inner circle. Cengiz who also has a background in PR spin for political movements has has been a shot caller for Erdogan's AK Party for many years. While there is no suggestion that Recip had been in an affair with Ceniz, Erdogan has kept a bit of a fatherly eye on the woman, this helps explain the close surveillance of the SA consulate by Turkey's security on the day of Kasho.

Kurds are also going to be majorly screwed in the deal as Erdogan will claim all the parts of Syria the Kurds have misappropriated and I have no doubt Erdogan will demand the oil well districts currently held by US and ISIS.

Posted by: my_team_is the_best | Oct 15, 2018 9:55:10 AM | 71

In response to the sanction threats they released a 'f*** you' statement and openly threaten that any sanctions will be responded to with some 30 painful measures:

At least they have a sense of humour.

Posted by: hooch | Oct 15, 2018 9:58:50 AM | 72

Trump is trying to set up a fake narrative that this was done by rogue operators while Pompeo goes to SA to meet with the demented king, the king suffering dementia, so they can read MbS the riot act before they cover his ass with this ludicrous story. Too bad Turkey already identified the culprits as MbS elite Intelligence and security guards including a top government forensics expert. That's why the Saudis then denied Turkey access to their premises. Turkey was not playing ball or ready to give the Saudis cover. The leak of the Saudi operatives identity was meant to ensure the Saudis and Trump didn't pull a false flag as cover. Now if Erdogan is succumbing to U.S. bribery there is no way anyone can put the genie back in the bottle as the operatives identities confirm MbS's seal on the act. Trump is scroo'd. He can't bullshit his way out of this.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 11:38:01 AM | 73

Kashoggi kicked himself. 'here I am an old rake' giving in to a skirt. How did I fall under her spell?
... before this, I thought it impossible that a person could be more jaded than me! the painted whore at elite parties...was that me? for sure, no longer the mother-scrubbed polite child repeating koranic verses at the iman's house ... the purity of soul one experiences in submission to the Only One Being ... i will be virtuous again ... even after passing through the odious sewage of political life in the West ... i will be actually break-free of the death-pall of my life of vice and service to Liberal Princes ... it's unbelievable even to me ... like a Greek hero ... i will be lying on my marriage bed ...
with the greatest sigh of pleasure in the world! ... can you believe it? ... but, it's all so unlikely ...
my escaping from of those terrible yachts ... those aweful off-shore scenes float forever ... yet miraculously, i have saved myself, and with the most unlikely of weapons for a decaying shell of a man whose own soul was long ago sold for the price of cruel moral chains ... what irony that my personal salvation should come through the last thing I would have ever expected: sentimental and romantic love. I am an old fool, he chided himself, yet her tender look just now in the car as she said good-bye, this girl's sheerly beautiful and unmistakeable sincerity. How could a woman like her exist in my world? a woman with the virtue of my mother, and not at all a bad figure ... he thought, as he walked into the Saudi Embassy.

Posted by: Guerrero | Oct 15, 2018 11:39:14 AM | 74

There is a lot of deception in this affaire which cannot be taken at face value.

Prime example is the alleged fiancée, whose behaviour is highly suspicious. According to reports, her version of events has changed repeatedly. I think there are serious grounds for doubting the claims of her relationship with Khashoggi. Rather, she seems to be a key manipulator in the affaire.

If Turkey has audio/video evidence of Khashoggi's death, why would the alleged fiancée ask Trump in the Washington Post op-ed (or was it NYT?) for his help in saving him? Maybe she was in fact plotting to give Erdogan leverage over both the USA and Saudi. Khashoggi was just the patsy.

Other less likely scenarios can also not be completely ruled out - Khashoggi might have been part of the plot (either as plotter/patsy mix, or maybe he is still alive); someone at the Saudi Embassy may have been plotting to bring about MbS's downfall; the putative escalation from planned abduction/rendition to killing/fatal accident/dismemberment may have been incited by pro-bin Nayef factions to bring about MbS's downfall. Khashoggi might even have been part of the plot on the MbS side (unlikely but who knows!) - he is also a prefessional deceiver and chamelion.

Most of the ground in this affaire is moving. All the protagonists are multiply proven liars and deceivers, and the geopolitical stakes are extremely high.

I do believe that most probably Khashoggi was murdered by the Saudis, but that is not absolutely certain. Other than the arrival and departure of the 15 Saudi agents, virtually every other detail is uncertain.

Regarding the Turkish audio/video source: my guess is that most likely a Turkish asset installing/maintaining security equipment had managed to connect the Embassy CCTV system to the internet. The Turks could then watch every move inside the embassy 24/7 in realtime in every room, through the internet.

Erdogan may release titbits of the recording by drip-feed - but to maintain the option of deniability he might make a FAKE recording that emulates the REAL - i.e actors impersonating Khashoggi and the Saudis, with electronic voice manipulation to emulate each of their voices, but with real content copied from the actual recording. That way the recording can later be debunked as a "fake" if required following a satisfactory deal between Erdogan and MbS, but the Saudis will know that Erdogan has the real recording because the content is duplicating it.

There are plenty of parallels to the Skripal fairytale - but with some of the roles reversed!

Posted by: BM | Oct 15, 2018 11:41:22 AM | 75

The Angry Arab, As'ad AbuKhalil, sets the record straight about Khashoggi being a "journalist" and rebukes non-Arabic readers for having no clue about what he actually wrote about in that language.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 15, 2018 11:48:19 AM | 76

Another possibility is that the affair may really have been carried out by rogue Saudi operators - as part of a plot against MbS! Acting against MbS can be a matter of life and death/billions for some of these Saudi princes, the stakes are high..

Posted by: BM | Oct 15, 2018 12:09:18 PM | 77

Fudging the facts and fabricating implausible scenarios like you just did is what gives criminals the means to hang on to corrupt power. You're an enabler of the ignorant masses perpetual enslavement to deception. You don't look for the truth; you do to the truth what the Saudis did to Khashoggi.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 12:12:38 PM | 78

Anything that upsets Brennan and gets the msm irritated is probably a good thing.

I can't see Putin having any trouble with this and also a lot of Trump enemies are in common with Jamal friends.
---------------------------------------

bold in below my additions..


@JackPosobiec

Here's the list of connections allegedly murdered writer Jamal Khashoggi had:

- Prince al-Waleed bin Talal

- Saudi intelligence

- Muslim Brotherhood

- Al Qaeda

- US government (deep state)

- Washington Post (CIA)

Posted by: financial matters | Oct 15, 2018 12:42:14 PM | 79

financial matters @78

His connections to Saudi intelligence apparently ended with the death or removal from power of his chief benefactors.

It seems that for the last few years he's gravitated more to Muslim Brotherhood. That kinda explains the Turkish girlfriend.

He also seems to have been a voice for anti-MbS sentiment in KSA.

And he doesn't seem to have been against the Saudi monarchy per se, just against the harsh version that MbS represents.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 15, 2018 12:54:54 PM | 80

Syrian MP: "We don’t want to see the Ottoman thief winning over any Arab country, Ottomans and Zionists are our real enemies."

Rather interesting comment about Khashoggi affair. Trump saying "rogue" Saudis may have done it, but aren't all Saudis "rogue"? And how would some "rogue" group of Saudis obtain 2 state-owned diplomatic jets and consist of members of MbS's security team and a known forensic scientist? Obviously a purposeful Red Herring. Kadi writing at The Saker says it's an Extortion Plot. Formal wheels were set in motion by the official letter sent to Trump by Senate Foreign Relations Committee invoking Magnitsky Act. Turks are supposedly inside the Consulate, so the proposed joint Turk-Saudi "investigation" seems to be happening.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 15, 2018 12:55:20 PM | 81

" Turks are supposedly inside the Consulate..." karlof1 Oct 15, 12:55:20 PM

That opens several questions.

1. Erdogan should have witness testimony available, but he is not disclosing it, same for the alleged audio recording. Recent years provide examples of claimed proofs that were never shown ("even Americans and the British").

2. Intriguing possibility: Saudi employers did not pay attention and Kashoggi was killed or spirited out by the Turkish employees. Say, they prepared the car for the Consul going shopping or whatever and placed Kashoggi, dead or very much alive, in the boot etc.

The inspiration is a tale (in a satirical book) of framing someone for plagiarism by influencing the ghostwriter of the person.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 15, 2018 1:16:30 PM | 82

PB @81--

Very little to report other than the joint looksie is ongoing. Saudi had 13 days to scrub and polish, so I doubt anything will be found. It would seem that the infamous Apple watch is playing the role of the dog that didn't bark.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 15, 2018 1:36:12 PM | 83

I don't believe there's a joint investigation as in investigative cooperation. First, the Saudis sent a top forensics expert with the hit squad for a reason. WHY is no one including the media dissecting the reason for his presence at the hit? Second, just before the Turkish forensics team went in, the Saudis sent in a cleaning crew. Of course the scene was already mopped up forensically and otherwise, but this way, if the Turks come back and say There was a strong bleach smell; the sewage pipe was flushed out profusely with bleach! the Saudis can reply, Naturally! our usual cleaning crew just finished cleaning the toilets!

So, The Saudi team is probably there to ensure the Turks don't plant Khashoggi's DNA. It's probably a joint check of one on the other.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 2:05:13 PM | 84

As this item's headline says, "You Couldn't Make This Up" as cleaners with supplies show up at Consulate just hours before Turkish investigators. The people hired were local Turks, so they wouldn't feel any of the "shame" BigLie Media's trying to attribute them. Of course, there's no evidence the cleaners and their supplies were put to work prior to the investigators investigation just Skripal-like assertions. If any cleaning needed to be done, it was likely done long ago--something none of the "reporters" had the temerity to observe. Perhaps the Qataris ordered the supplies and cleaners, or some other nation with a morbid sense of humor? Yemen for example.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 15, 2018 2:46:14 PM | 85

Bernhard, I see thst Trump has said that it was done by renegades. Looks like he read your piece and decided to just use your word rather than bother with his own.

Posted by: sarz | Oct 15, 2018 2:48:34 PM | 86

I now expect the conflict to go on for weeks or months while collateral damage will accumulate around it.

A signature operation by now for those willing to entertain a more cynical, less partisan view. There are only a few, very few actors organized, capable and clever enough to come up with the plan & the means designed to create a situation where all possible outcomes are beneficial to the perpetrators,

There's a string of these type operations in the last decade, increasingly the last years. Events which were designed not to have any definite outcome but only fallout & confusion in its wake. It's perhaps the only force one can raise against a bloated insanely powerful global order.

If true, this is not going to stop until it's all unsettled.

Posted by: John Dowser | Oct 15, 2018 3:35:24 PM | 87

Sorry. "Rogue" was the word Bernhard and Trump used, not "renegade."

Posted by: sarz | Oct 15, 2018 3:45:54 PM | 88

I strongly suggest watching As'ad Abukhalil's Twitter for info about this you won't find elsewhere, particularly that published by Saudi controlled media in Arabic. Magnier provides meaning for this provocative headline.

Interesting; it appears "rogue element" can be stretched to mean an overly aggressive interrogator who'll take the fall and thus end the fiasco. Shit happens after all. Trump says: Explanation accepted. back to business as usual.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 15, 2018 3:48:24 PM | 89

Saudi had 13 days to scrub and polish, so I doubt anything will be found. karlof1

Ye of small faith! London metropolitan police can find novichock after two months in a room that is supposedly scrubbed every day. I do not know what is more suspicious: low quality of room cleaning in less-than-average London hotels or high quality of police investigations in that city. Anyway, invite London cops, they will surely find something.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 15, 2018 3:49:30 PM | 90

CNN claims Saudi government to admit journalist killed in ‘interrogation gone wrong’
https://www.rt.com/usa/441337-cnn-claims-saudi-admit-khashoggi/

Interesting if Saudi would actually admit this.

Posted by: Zanon | Oct 15, 2018 3:50:14 PM | 91

Okay, where's brian??? I was right! Again. Breaking news: the Saudis are readying a report admitting JK was k!lied at the Consulate and their explanation is going to make the bullshit meter needle fly off the chart! Can you believe they're alleging the interrogation went wrong and he d.ied. BULL!!!! So that's why the brought a bone saw and a forensics expert, right????

This was a brutal m..murder! From the beginning I was convinced they k!lled him, and now I'm convinced it was planned!

The international comm. can't let them get away with this! Trump was already parroting their narrative this morning. THE FIX IS IN.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 3:57:51 PM | 92

Putin has a special envoy meeting with MBS and Jabeir. Quietly got in ahead of Pompeo, or perhaps that is why Trump sent Pompeo. Posted a comment earlier with links but has not appeared.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 15, 2018 4:00:09 PM | 93

As I suggested @88, CNN is now saying that's exactly what the excuse will declare. Saudi will lose some short-term face, then back to status-quo ante, or close to it.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 15, 2018 4:04:41 PM | 94

Here's the truth: This was a planned HIT! They offed Khashoggi. They brought a 15-man hit squad. They brought a bone saw. They brought a forensics expert and it was ordered by MsB. Trump is a PATHOLOGICAL LIAR and a conniving Zionist p!g.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 4:07:20 PM | 95

Great read!

"abduction and, if needed, murder of dissidents in foreign countries are a long standing Saudi policy that never caused any serious uproar."

Ditto for Iz-ra-el. Numerous dead scientists around the world, including a Canadian murdered in Belgium.

Posted by: Anita | Oct 15, 2018 4:22:29 PM | 96

Now for the real question, just how much can Turkey and the US squeeze out of Saudi Arabia, $10-$20 billion dollars, maybe more. The US imposed the Magnitsky Act on Russia without any proof of state involvement in his death, but now they have SA dead to rights. I wonder if MBS can kiss his coronation goodbye after this disaster, he had hundreds of powerful enemies before this and now he's made hundreds more and embarrassed the King.

Posted by: Kadath | Oct 15, 2018 4:56:07 PM | 97

... how much can Turkey and the US squeeze out of Saudi Arabia, $10-$20 billion dollars, maybe more. The US imposed the Magnitsky Act on Russia without any proof of state involvement in his death, but now they have SA dead to rights. Kadath | Oct 15, 2018 4:56:07 PM

1. "consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers..."
Here in US of A we are not ruled by little statesmen or (heaven forfend) philosophers.

2. KSA pre-paid mercenary following by USA, UK etc, sanction them and they can cancel arms contracts, add salt to injury by importing from Russia, and if they will be forced to finish the escapade to Yemen, it is simply GOOFD FOR THEM!

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 15, 2018 5:23:32 PM | 98

@96

Honestly, the King who has dementia now, probably doesn't care. What mattered most to him was that he had a strongman ensuring the continuity of the Monarchy. Why do people think he chose him as successor? Monarchs are very insecure and paranoid about their survival; especially, today. MbS is exactly the brutal leader he wanted and no doubt he raised him to be ruthless and to do whatever it takes to secure the realm; even this.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 15, 2018 5:29:59 PM | 99

psycho,

"Why not awe of our ignorance of the Cosmos"

We are somewhat grasping creatures, having evolved swinging from branches to throwing sticks. It gives us focus. Being someone who is totally ADD, totally letting go has its downsides as well, so we learn to cycle between the absolute and the infinite. A happy medium is also a flatline. Interesting times here on the 3rd rock.

"I think there is science "fact""

Hold onto your facts lightly, or you will find yourself chasing after the multiverse. Math is supposed to be "Just the facts, madam." Yet it takes itself way to seriously. For example, is space fundamentally 3 dimensional, or are these vectors just a useful mapping of some of the properties of space? Are longitude, latitude and altitude foundational to the biosphere of this planet, or just a useful mapping device? A circle is only a circle from two points of view. A dimensionless point, being a multiple of zero, can't actually exist, but it is a useful abstraction.
The problem with "facts" are that they are distillations of far more complex realities. Maps, rather than territories. To the extent they are stable and repeatable, that only means they are stable and repeatable, nothing more and nothing less. More the skeleton of the larger reality, than the seed from which it sprang. Which makes them effect, not cause. If we distill facts to the absolute, there is nothing left, but if we expand all their implications and connections to infinity, there is nothing to distinguish them. There are no rules and patterns in the void and without the frame, everything becomes nothing.

"This may describe the West but not the rest of the cultures existent or destroyed by the West social disease."

Galaxies are energy radiating out, as mass coalesces in. Cosmic convection cycles. In our western culture, we describe the elements which wish to fulfill every desire as liberalism and the cultural structures sorting through these passions, for what to trim and what to encourage, as conservatism. Energy versus form. Anarchy versus authoritarianism. Societies fluctuate somewhere in the middle.

"Thanks for the discussion."

Thank you.

Posted by: John Merryman | Oct 15, 2018 5:36:07 PM | 100

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