Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 17, 2018

Saudis Stonewall On Khashoggi But Pressure Will Increase

The most interesting aspect of the botched assassination of Jamal Khashoggi is the insight it creates into political conflicts in U.S. domestic and international policies.

The Saudi clown prince Mohammad bin Salman unwittingly did a huge favor to Turkey's president Erdogan when he send a crew to abduct or kill Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Erdogan is in a historic geopolitical conflict with Saudi Arabia over supremacy in the Middle East.

The Turks had the Saudi consulate bugged. Every country in the world tries to plant listening devices into foreign embassies and consulates. It is no surprise then that the Turks know what happened within the consulate and use the evidence to squeeze the Saudis. Erdogan knows how to play the media and does his very best to drag out the story. He will press the Saudis for financial and political gains.

On Monday the White House floated the idea that a 'rogue killer' was responsible for the ghastly deed in Istanbul. Trump himself led the campaign:

President Donald Trump on Monday repeatedly highlighted the Saudi King's denial of involvement in the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi, at one point offering up an alternative theory that "rogue killers," rather than agents of the Saudi regime, were involved.

U.S. media made it seem as if the Saudis were flying that test ballon. But the Saudis rejected it way out. They say, to this day, that they are not aware that anything happened in their consulate at all. It was likely Netanyahoo's errand-boy in the White House, Jared Kushner, who floated the 'rogue killer' tale:

A senior Trump administration official said Kushner has a close relationship with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the heir to the Saudi throne, and the pair have been in direct phone conversations about Khashoggi. These calls have been part of a White House push to get Saudi Arabia to participate in an investigation into Khashoggi’s case.

Anyway - the ballon was filled with lead. Erdogan had already made sure that such a story would not fly.

This site reported on Wednesday October 10 that the men the Turks had identified were directly related to the clown prince:

The Turkish government published pictures of 15 men who had come from Saudi Arabia and were in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul shortly before Khashoggi visited it to get his divorce papers. They moved Khashoggi to the residence of the consul and later that day flew back on the same two private Saudi jets that had brought them to Istanbul.

At least 8 of the 15 men have been identified as Saudi royal military. At least three are bodyguards of the Saudi clown prince Mohammad bin Salman. It is thereby obvious that the clown prince himself gave the order for the operation. One of the 15 is Dr. Salah Muhammed Al-Tubaigy, the head of forensic evidence at the Saudi General Security Department.

It took the U.S. media a week to explain to their readers that the killers are part of MbS' personal entourage. Today the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post finally put the above 'news' onto their frontpages.

Why did the media held back on this so for so long?

After the Saudis rejected the 'rogue' fairytale. Trump stepped back from it and points to the lack of any confession:

President Donald Trump launched a concerted defense of Saudi Arabia for the disappearance and suspected murder of Jamal Khashoggi, saying the country's crown prince "totally denied" knowledge about the suspected death of the Washington Post journalist and complaining that the country was being assumed "guilty until proven innocent."

This is fully in line with the Saudi strategy. They do not admit anything, not even something 'rogue'. They do not want to make a deal - yet. When Secretary of State visited yesterday they did did not even talk about the publicly known facts:

Reporter: Did they say that Khashoggi was alive or dead?
Secretary Pompeo: I don't want to talk about any of the facts. They didn't want to either.

They Saudis only promised to investigate themselves.


Some people seem to believe that the Turks somehow vanished Khashoggi and fabricated the evidence. But there has been no explanation by the Saudis or anyone else for the two Saudi jets, owned by the king, that were tracked flying to Istanbul and left the same day to return to Riyadh.

Flight data collected by AirNavRadarBox, a firm that tracks private and commercial planes all over the world, showed that the first of the two planes left Riyadh late Oct. 1 and touched down in Istanbul the following day at 3:15 a.m.
...
Flight data shows that a second private jet, believed by investigators to be transporting the rest of the team, touched down in Istanbul at 5:15 p.m. It is unclear whether those on board traveled to either the consulate or the residence. It departed an hour and 15 minutes after it arrived, heading for Cairo. Twenty-five hours after its arrival in Cairo, the plane left for Riyadh.

There are also hotel records and CCTV video showing the Saudi team. There is no way Turkey could have faked all of this. The Saudi government made no serious attempt to explain why these people, including the clown prince's personal body guards, flew to Istanbul and were in the consulate when Khashoggi entered it. MbS also had a motive. Khashoggi was a Muslim Brotherhood and intelligence asset that had turned into a mouthpiece for the internal opposition against the Salmans.

MbS is the first Saudi ruler who broke the families rules of consultation and monopolized the decision making. He jailed and tortured other princes to rob them of their money. The people MbS hurt were talking to Khashoggi who had a public perch at the Washington Post to vent their grievances:

[Prince] Ahmed was appalled at the destructive nature of MbS' policies and his recklessness. [..] Jamal Khashoggi knew this. While it spoke volumes about his agreeable nature, it also sometimes was a curse that senior royals liked to sound off to him.
...
There are other Saudi royals out there, less in seniority to Ahmed bin Abdulaziz, yet also sons and nephews of kings. It is their reaching out to Jamal, relayed to MbS by his fawning apparatchiks, that created an incendiary environment in his office and led to that death warrant.

That explanation makes sense. One of the Saudis identified in Istanbul was Maher Abdilaziz Mutreb, a body guard who is regularly seen traveling with MbS. In 2011 Mutreb was trained in the use of spy software by the Italian surveillance malware vendor Hacking Team. He is one of MbS' 'fawning apparatchiks' who spy on other royals and their contacts to journalists in the west.

We can lay the conspiracy theory that Erdogan faked the incident to rest. He was simply lucky that MbS was stupid enough to let his hapless bodyguards kill Khashoggi in Turkey, where he had top connections to an anti-Saudi ruler who did not hesitate to escalate the issue into a larger conflict.


After the Saudis rejected the 'rogue killer' plot and the first attempt of a deal failed, the well managed bit by bit revelations from Turkey restarted. Erdogan wants to make sure that the story stays on the frontpages until he gets his deal. Yesterday evening anonymous Turkish officials started to brief reporters about the content of the tape they have of the incident:

It took seven minutes for Jamal Khashoggi to die, a Turkish source who has listened in full to an audio recording of the Saudi journalist's last moments told Middle East Eye.
...
Salah Muhammad al-Tubaigy, who has been identified as the head of forensic evidence in the Saudi general security department, was one of the 15-member squad who arrived in Ankara earlier that day on a private jet.

Tubaigy began to cut Khashoggi’s body up on a table in the study while he was still alive, the Turkish source said.

The killing took seven minutes, the source said.

As he started to dismember the body, Tubaigy put on earphones and listened to music. He advised other members of the squad to do the same.

“When I do this job, I listen to music. You should do [that] too,” Tubaigy was recorded as saying, the source told MEE.

The described scene proves that the Saudis are very 'moderate', even kuffaar (unbelievers) in the eye of extreme Islamists. As an experience Middle East correspondent snarked:

Elijah J. Magnier @ejmalrai

I tell you what is the difference between #ISIS & #SaudiArabia practice:
- #ISIS will never listen to music while beheading & dismembering their victim
- #SaudiArabia, due to the moderate reformer MBS, listen to Music while cutting the body of #Khashoggi

Parts of the audio tape were handed over to a Turkish outlet but are not yet public. They will be released when it fits Erdogan's strategy.

Yesterday the Turkish police tried to search the residence of the Saudi consul in Istanbul. The killer team went there after they left the consulate. The police assumes that Khashoggi's body, or its parts, are buried in the residency's garden. But the consul left unexpectedly to Riyadh and warned that the residency is under diplomatic protection. The police has no right to search it without Saudi consent.


Secretary of State Pompeo tries his best to negotiate between Turkey and Saudi Arabia. His task is to limit the damage the incident does to the house of Saud and especially to MbS. But the Saudis stonewalled, while Erdogan played the tape to him.

As longer the dealing takes, the more gruesome will be the details dripped from Turkish sources.

The backlash against the Saudis in U.S. media and in Congress will only increase.The incident has international consequences. The managing director of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, announced that she will not attend next week's Future Investment Initiative in Riyadh. She follows a long list of CEOs and media moguls who canceled their attendance. The foreign ministers of the G7 issued a statement demanding an investigation. The scandal is bad for the future of Saudi Arabia's economy. The mood in Riyadh is fraught.

The Washington Post, for which Khashoggi wrote opinion pieces, will not let go of the issue. Nor will other U.S. media.

Everyone but Trump wants to see MbS leave. Even Senator Graham Lindsay, a warmongering ally of Donald Trump, promises to get rid of Mohammad bin Salman:

“I’m not going back to Saudi Arabia as long as this guy is in charge,” Graham said of bin Salman. “I’ve been their biggest defender on the floor of the United States Senate. This guy is a wrecking ball. He had [Khashoggi] murdered in a consulate in Turkey and to expect me to ignore it, I feel used and abused. The MBS figure is to me toxic, he can never be a world leader on the world stage.”

“It’s up to the president, but what I would do — Well, I know what I’m going to do. I’m gonna sanction the hell out of Saudi Arabia,” Graham added when asked if Trump should impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia.

One wonders what Graham's motives are. On several issues - Iran, Israel, Syria - MbS is fully in line with his policies. Who then is lobbying him to work against MbS? It is not the Zionist lobby. The Israelis surely want to keep MbS as they can play him like a fiddle.

Could the United Arab Emirates and their current strongman Mohammed bin Zayed be behind Graham's stand?

While MbZ is publicly a dear friend of MbS, both have recently clashed in their common attack on Yemen. MbS wants the Yemeni oil fields, a pipeline from Saudi Arabia through west Yemen, and a port where Saudi oil can be shipped from without passage through the Iran controlled Street of Hormuz.

But the ports of Yemen are the bounty MbZ wants to win for Dubai Port World which is “one of the instruments of [the UAE’s] global affirmation strategy.” He wants to control all of the Yemeni coast and all of its islands. The clash between Saudi Arabia and the UAE in Yemen is obvious for the people on the ground. The UAE even hired U.S. mercenaries to kill off locals leaders belonging to the Islah party which is a Saudi assets.

It is the UAE and its ambassador Yousef Al Otaiba who spend more on lobbying Washington than any other Arab country - at least $21.3 million in 2017. There are connections between UAE lobbying and Lindsay Graham through Elliott Broidy who also raised funds for Trump's election campaign.


A major Trump foreign policy is the new sanction regime against Iran. But without extra oil pumped by the Saudis the new sanctions on Iranian oil, which go into effect in early November, will increase oil prices and tank the U.S. economy.

It seems that MbS decided to sit out the storm over his murder of Khashoggi. He can pressure Trump by holding back oil exports. Trump would probably like to follow that strategy, if only to avoid any oil shortages. But the domestic and international pressure seems to become too big. As Erdogan continues the drip by drip release of sensational evidence and the Washington Post piles on, Trump will have to do something more than sending Pompeo for useless talks.

Stopping all U.S. support for the war on Yemen would be good start.

But it would not be enough. MbS needs to be removed.

The Trump administration has no ambassador in Saudi Arabia. The White House connection to the Saudi rulers ran solely through the Kushner-MbS phone-line. But that line is now useless. Trump will need to send someone who has good relations with the King himself. Only he can remove the clown prince. The King is 82 years old and not in good health. MbS might well be ruthless enough to suddenly let him die. Trump will have to act as soon as possible. 

Posted by b on October 17, 2018 at 17:47 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Karlof1

And now this Guardian article from Oui @198. I think the decision has been made. They just have to bring Trump around to stand up to AIPAC et al. There will clearly be consequences for MBS. I agree with you that the relation with SA will move forward without a hitch. Just a juggling of the players. What there is no shortage of in SA is Clown Princes to tend to the perverbial circus tent in the desert.

What is sickening is that in their effort to carry out justice and look human, the world superpowers are exposing their inhumanity evermore. Unless we have millions marching in London, Paris and Washington, nothing will change. The only thing that worries this lot are the mob. Vietnam proved that. Only if we could somehow wean the mob from the bread and circus.

Posted by: Alpi57 | Oct 19 2018 17:32 utc | 201

karlof1 @ 147 & 194

Thanks for the links. Very interesting reading. Now IIPAC comes out to defense MbS' value to iFUKUS in ME. The real motivations of the coordinated dis/misinformation war waged by for-profit habitual BigLie MSM, incl. infamous pro-Erdy Turkish media, (ex-) experts from three-letter agencies and totally corrupt politicians are to come out slowly.

If we are able to be skeptical about boldfaced lies told by the venerable NYT/WaPo/CNN/BBC & Co plus US Presidnets/British Prime Miniters, why should we totally believe what comes out from Erdy/his aids with names/anonymous Turkish officials/police plus Turkish media? Because it is extremely graphic and detailed so that should be accepted as "facts"?

Still remember Colin Powell holding the little vial telling us the "official truth" about MDW? Why so many people are gladly/blindly accept the version of story told by Turkish and BigLie MSM? Because we despise the head-chopper MbS and bully Trump?

Posted by: mali | Oct 19 2018 17:35 utc | 202

The Saudi Turkish embassy murder of Kashoggi is a false flag bigger than 911 !!! A false flag designed to remove the president of America. I am now one hundred percent sure !

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2018 17:41 utc | 203

Peter AU 1 @178

I suspected his fiancée might be a honey-trap since the first MOA article about Kashoggi, and still hold the same suspicion about his so-called fiancée: Why did she wait that long out side of the consulate before alert the authorities? Why did Kashoggi leave all his iPhones to his fiancée outside instead of taking one with him? (He could send a emoji, pre-written SMS or quick dial to her phone to indicate he was in trouble inside the consulate.)

According to the links provided by TomGard, he only started to see/date this woman from May this year. Now she is pouring out her heart/emotion on NYT......

Why Kashoggi didn't go the Saudi Embassy or Consulate in US, which could be much safer for him, IMHO.

Posted by: mali | Oct 19 2018 17:52 utc | 204

The departure flights of the two, private, apparently Saudi, planes seem like a loose thread. Both reportedly had intermediate stops before returning to Riyadh.

Flight #1, which arrived in Istanbul at 3:15 am on Oct 2, departed late the same day (time?). Reportedly, it stopped over elsewhere in Turkey, before continuing back to Riyadh. Has timing information on this flight been given to the public? Just guessing: does filing a domestic flight plan draw less attention than an international flight plan? And smaller airports usually have less red tape, coming and going are simpler.

Flight #2, arrived in Istanbul late for the alleged bloody mayhem. Possibly no one on this second flight ever left the airport. (Perhaps there was only a flight crew? If so, who were they picking up and flying to Cairo?) This flight departed Istanbul a little more than an hour after touching down, at 6:30pm, and flew to Cairo. The plane remained in Cairo a day before returning to Riyadh.

In Cairo there would be connecting flights to locations throughout the ME and the world. Also, in Egypt, preparations may have been ongoing for the 10-day long, joint Saudi-Egypt military exercise, Tabuk4, which has just now concluded.

So, were these intermediate stops merely an attempt at misdirection for anyone who might wish to track these planes? Or could the separate flights, and divergent courses, signify something about who was traveling on those flights?

Posted by: smoke | Oct 19 2018 17:58 utc | 205

Ma Laoshi@91, Littl WhiteCabbage@87, 94&103

Very interesting comments.

Basing on my years' of reading Western propaganda/dis-/misinformation, the more the BigLie MSM and the psycho FUKUS governments/politicians finger out the only "official offenders" in unison, the more skeptical we should become.

Posted by: mali | Oct 19 2018 18:01 utc | 206

Mali @ 104
I have answered those points @ 191

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2018 18:08 utc | 207

Btw, has Turkish media/anonymous sources mentioned or released any CCTV video/photos from the back door of the consulate? Since Saudi official statement says Kashoggi left from the back door.

So far we only saw CCTV video/photos from the front door.

Posted by: mali | Oct 19 2018 18:08 utc | 208

mali @202 and et al--

Caitlyn Johnstone reminds/warns us:

"Be Skeptical Whenever The Political/Media Class Converges On A Single Narrative."

Given what we're being bombarded with, that's very sensible advice. Now that AIPAC's come to his defense, the entire narrative's odor becomes smellier. IMO, MbS could put a big spanner into the narrative by simply saying he did nothing different than what Obama did with Alwaki. But is he or his advisors smart enough to use that as an out? Also, the previous MO must be looked at as they've always been renditions, not assassinations outside Saudi. The team sent was large because Khashoggi was large and would likely be hard to subdue. He resisted and died, either by heart attack or some other means. The mistake made by the team was in not waiting for instructions from home as to how to proceed. Another out would be to announce he was arrested, resisted then shot while trying to escape. Anyway, the saga continues, and we'll just have to await what occurs.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 19 2018 18:30 utc | 209

MbS could put a big spanner into the narrative by simply saying he did nothing different than what Obama did with Alwaki.
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 19, 2018 2:30:50 PM | 209

I think that is probably what Putin told him to say!

Posted by: BM | Oct 19 2018 18:37 utc | 210

Regarding the article that "Oui" 198 referred to from The Guardian ( Evidence suggests crown prince ordered Khashoggi killing, says ex-MI6 chief | The Guardian |  )...


'A former head of MI6 has said all the evidence suggests Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was behind the death of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, and that the theory that rogue elements in the Saudi military were responsible was “blatant fiction”.

'Sawers, who was head of the British secret intelligence service until 2014, also claimed...'

No former head of any intelligence service can speak out in public this way without the approval of those -- or at least somebody -- at the highest level. All intelligence service employes sign, and usually swear to, non-disclosure agreements requiring a waiver from on high for any public utterance, orally or in writing.

Thus, this can only be a plant to direct the narative toward the criminalization of MbS. Beyond that, there is surely much more, yet to be revealed.

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 19 2018 18:40 utc | 211

I tried to post a longer comment on that for the last 2 hours but it just refuses to post. Not sure why.

The whole Khashoggi affair is a US setup, but the real winner will be President Putin, and the false flag plotters will be the losers.

Posted by: BM | Oct 19 2018 18:41 utc | 212

Regarding the two flights out of Istanbul back to Riyad, nobody has questioned why they would make any stops at all, given the short flying distance (look at a map). Nor has there been any mention, ANYWHERE, of who got off those planes when they landed in back in Riyad.

It is quite possible that those fifteen were, indeed, "rogue" elements, traitors to MbS, connected to those who had been humiliated (and mistreated, but, especially for them, humiliated) at the Ritz Calrton last year and shaken down. Notice that the planes were from a private charter company, not the king's flight.

A reasonable scenario would be that everybody got off at the stop-off points and that new pilots, utterly ignorant of what had happened, were put on board to take the planes to Riyad, possibly with fake instructions, all in writing, to pick up some new customers (or maybe even real customers).

Given Trump's level of intelligence, it would be surprising for him to come up with this on his own. Somebody -- Jared? -- told him, probably on word from MbS. This, however, would have given the game away that MbS was losing his grip on things, including on some of this own inner circle praetorian guards, so, it was retired.

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 19 2018 18:56 utc | 213

Thank you RJPJR @ BM
I felt like a lone wolf in the wilderness here ! None of them get it even now ! God knows I tried!
RJ— you hit the nail on the head, although retired uk choose this man to be to be the mouth piece ! That tells us this is above politics, it also tells us UK is publicly accusing trump of the murder. Thanks you guys ! And for the rest of you!!! Wake the f—k up sleepy heads

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2018 19:09 utc | 214

Mark2 214

I would not say that the "UK is publicly accusing trump of the murder", but certainly they are connecting Trump to it, given how close/tight he and his beloved Jared have been to the clown prince.

"Although retired..." You are right to put that in, for the non-disclosure commitment is for life. Retired intelligence staff from all levels, including the top, are used to direct the public narrative. And, as we should constantly keep in mind, those who direct the public narrative direct the public thinking.

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 19 2018 19:33 utc | 215

Good points RJ as you say he’s still under the official secrets act which means he was given the green light/aproval from the very very top and I meen way above pm level!!! Stop and think about that ! He effectively accused trump of instigating this when he states—- crown prince would not have done this with out trumps permmison ! I may poss have an advantage i hered his recorded interview! This is deep state uk us hanging out trump to dry. And we all know who the deep state are ! This was all planned from the start. False flag to remove
President Donald Trump from office !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2018 19:49 utc | 216

Mark2

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 19 2018 20:00 utc | 217

Yes incredible ! But i’v done my home work. No more incred able than 911 RJK Martin Luther king, this is now !
As we know—- the CIA would be running this, although loyal to there president, they answer first to deep state!
Peter Au1 point taken and thanks

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2018 20:13 utc | 218

Something really odd going on with this site. For me the post a comment section has been playing up over the last 24 hours. When trying to comment @217 it immediately posted when I hit the enter button.

@ Mark2
Judging by Trump and Pompeo's actions to date, it is very likely the Turks do have the goods on MBS. Rather than a false flag, MBS has most likely walked into a trap where Khashoggi was used as live bait.
The ID's of the hit team arriving at the airport in Turkey have not been disputed (some known to be from MBS bodyguard). The western faction behind the release of the CIA pastor, which would be an anti Trump faction helped set up the trap.
If it where a false flag operation with fake Saudi's that went to Egypt and disappeared, this would be the first thing taken apart by the Trump, Pompeo, MBS Israeli crew.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 19 2018 20:18 utc | 219

Typo should be JFK (been along day !) a lonely one !

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2018 20:18 utc | 220

Thanks Peter Au 1
Can I clarify it all happened, it was’nt staged, he died as stated, real team from Saudi aproved by crown prince given green light by trump on advice !!! That’s the trap, false flag the advice given by CIA to trump !!
Example—- when we say 911 was a false flag we don’t meen it did’nt happen or no one died,we meen it was a set up trick to con someone or the public in general! That was 911 same here now.
Deep state regeme chainge in the USA. After all they do it round half the world.
Kudos Peter Au 1

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2018 20:34 utc | 221

The Set-up...

MbS had Khashoggi on his hit list. Repeated efforts to lure him back to Saudi Arabia failed.

Given what we have seen of MbS's modus operandi, it is highly unlikely -- it would have been unique -- for him to have Khashoggi murdered. Rather, Khashoggi would have been kidnapped and brought back to face what the Ritz Carlton guests had faced. (One can imagine Khashoggi tied up and MbS dancing around him with glee, taunting him.)

The status and number of persons humiliated and abused at the Ritz Carlton made obvious that nobody was safe anymore. Many of those so treated, regardless of how they were shaken down (impoverished), have family, friends and allies still intact who could fear such teatment simply owing to their association with the victims, hence a huge pool of people both fealful for their own lives and seeking revenge, and the atmosphere of fear prompting MbS to abandon the royal palace and sleep on his yatch. Within his inner circle and praetorian guard, there are many who know well now that mere suspicion is enough to warrant Ritz Carlton treatment.

The plan to kidnap Kashoggi ended up being entrusted to some of them. They were bought or simply persuaded to kill the intended kidnap victim as gruesomely as possible to smear the clown prince so badly that he would have to be set aside.

The crucial point here is the two airplanes and the utter lack of information about who was on them, why they had to stop on the way back to Riyad and who got off those planes in Riyad. I contend that they all got off at Cairo and Abu Dhabi and that the planes went on empty except for the pilots, the passengers (with the body parts?) are now in exile.

Who bought them? The fiancée, who lured him to Istanbul to get a certificate that any consulate could issue is a CIA asset, so that means some faction of The Company was invovled. His initial appearance at the consulate assured them that he was in the trap and gave them time to mobilize.

As reported in The Guardian, "[Sir John] Sawers, who was head of the British secret intelligence service until 2014, also claimed that the crown prince would only have acted if he believed he had licence from the White House to behave as he wished."

In other words, he is accusing Trump of complicity, at the least. Trump's attributing the kill to "rogue elements" is probably echoing what the clown prince told Jared. This, as I said above, makes it look like the clown prince is losing his grip (which he apparently is), so it was dropped.

The phalanx of U.S. legislators and intended participants at "Davos in the Desert" who are backing off from any connection with the Kingdom means that anybody connected with the crime is going to be badly smeared, if only by association. This gives the perpetrators considerable leverage over the Kingdom, which will need rehabilitation.

QUI BONO? The CIA faction that backs the Clintons may have scored a big one. As for the removal of the clown prince, he will not be missed for he long ago became radioactive.

There is also the complicity of Turkey. We must note what Turkey derives from this, for there are many possible rewards the Turkeys could demand for playing their role so well.

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 19 2018 21:31 utc | 222

@178. Mali, the girl is clean. Khasoggi would have had her checked and wanted to consummate their relationship. Conservative Muslims don't do premarital sex.
Handing both phones to her is sign of absolute trust in a relationship.
Even if he had a third phone, he was set on almost at once inside.
He may have tried to dial. ... reason that fingers were cut?
Everything taken from him. Apple watch claim not true. The premises were bugged.
No reasonable person expects a loved one to enter diplomatic grounds - a safe haven - and be butchered.
She hung on, perhaps thinking the paperwork ran into complications.
We just need to know if she called her father or friends while waiting, and was told to be patient.
Khassogi had to go home or to Istanbul to dissolve his Saudi syariah marriage.
Turkey has a secular system, but will accept syariah practices of other Muslim countries.
Khassogi could not do it in USA, a third country, and doesnt even practice syariah.
Turkish authorities won't accept.
The most revolting thing now is the exploitation of a man's death for political purposes all round.
I am neutral on Khassogi. But I give the girl a pass.

Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 19 2018 21:45 utc | 223

222 & 223
Thank you both ! I need to sleep now, but you at least , seem to be taking this as seriously as it should be taken !
Bigger than 911 ‘ none so blind as those that will not see’ you guys see! Good night.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 19 2018 22:11 utc | 224

Latest news on the rumour machine is that Saudi king has sacked deputy intelligence chief General Ahmed Assiri and royal court adviser Saud al-Qahtani. Presumably for either not stopping his son's stupid move or for the rendition turning into murder.

Posted by: JohninMK | Oct 19 2018 22:12 utc | 225

Khashoggi died in a 'fight' according to Saudi state TV.


https://www.rt.com/news/441783-saudi-arabia-khashoggi-died-fight/

Posted by: dh | Oct 19 2018 22:27 utc | 226

The graun reported about 12 hours ago that agent orange was leaning on Fishy bin Salman to heap all the blame on General Ahmed al-Assiri for the screw up.
Here is the quote that was liely the kicker for trump.

"Officials have been increasingly irritated at Prince Mohammed’s intransigence – a view that has led them to name General Assiri as a man who could take the blame. Assiri has no family connections to the Saudi royal establishment, but had been an enthusiastic and polished advocate of the kingdom’s involvement in Yemen, a role that caught the 33-year-old crown prince’s eye.

Sandhurst educated, US trained and fluent in English, he had a steady rise through the Saudi air force. The trajectory was at odds with his humble origins from a village in the country’s south-west, but was seen by other senior officers was meritorious. His switch to deputy intelligence chief was less popular, but cemented his power with the royal court, where only a small network of advisers are entrusted with calling the shots.


That Washington, rather than Riyadh, is constructing what many claim is a fall guy, speaks to the wide divergence in positions in both capitals"


Trump has been using poor but eager types as fall guys ever since he started out - they have no ability to defend themselves.
I went to bed last night thinking maybe Fishy aint so bad he refuses to take advantage of less fortunate types, but I woke this morning to see that the saudis have indeed run with trump's play al-Assiri is in the slammer for following orders.

Too early to tell but this travesty may hold since all sorts of websites have become off limits in the last 24 hours esp english language ones. At the very least recently updated browsers reject certificates many of which still don't work after you 'allow the exception'. net neutrality goes down as 2018's biggest lie.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 19 2018 23:06 utc | 227

Looks like my scenario @209 was correct--shot while attempting to escape, or some such variance of that theme. Yes, it stinks, given the tardiness of the excuse. But given the precedence of Alwaki and others, who will step forward to challenge MbS? Will attempts be made to sanction Saudi a la Russia and Skripal? We shall need to wait and see.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 19 2018 23:09 utc | 228

RJPJR 223

Trump has had his own people, first Pompeo and now Haspel running the CIA for some time now. A CIA plot to take down Trump is unlikely. Ex CIA like Brennan and Clapper are possibles.

"The fiancée, who lured him to Istanbul to get a certificate that any consulate could issue is a CIA asset, ..." You put this as a statement of fact. Do you have anything solid to back up that claim as to her being a CIA asset. I have thought her more likely to be a Turk asset. Another though is that Erdogan's Gulen purges would have cleaned up many CIA assets.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 19 2018 23:13 utc | 229

Mali@208

I believe I just read somewhere that he entered from the backdoor , which is shown in the CCTV.

Posted by: Pft | Oct 19 2018 23:20 utc | 230

F**k, this may teach me to check out where I sh1t didn't realise this thread had devolved into lunacy every crazy unproven unfounded theory shouted down by another even more ridiculous. Go to bed, straighten yer heads, the simplest most straightforward and easily understandable hypothesis is usually the correct one. Yes that gets abused but with a dropkick like Fishy who is in too much hurry and arrogant as all get up, a complex plot always unravels.

Posted by: my_team_is the_best | Oct 19 2018 23:47 utc | 231

So apparently a 28 yo who has been Saudis ambassador in the US for the last year may replace MBS. Apparently he has been vetted by the Deep State and meets their approval.

MBS has dragged his feet on buying the US arms Trump said he sold him, failed to push through the Aramco IPO, oil prices still too high, and he detained and shook down one of the Royals who is a major shareholder of Citigroup and 21st Century Fox, both of whom are major corporations of the ruling elite. As Trump would say-disappointing

So MBS , Trump , Israel and the Deep State have common cause. Khashoggi has gone rogue. A Trump and MBS critic, pro Palestinian and a guy who knows where the skeletons of 9/11 are buried. Best he be dead or safely controlled back in Saudi Arabia but he wont go back. Has had a taste of freedom and he likes it.

So MBS gets Trumps approval to bring him back to Saudi Arabia like he did the Lebanese Prime Minister. Unfortunately they need to prevent him going back to US and as a US resident and WashPo journalist his disappearance wont go unnoticed, and there would be pressure to release him. So how about faking his death with the helps of Turkeys mystery tapes nobody gets to see or hear. Cant be pressured to return him then, just need to punish some patsies and apologize for the “accident” and all is well

Everyone happy except MBS who trusted his buddies Trump and Kushner to protect him not knowing they have found a more suitable replacement who may deliver on the goods he failef to deliver.

Maybe Kashoggi is dead or maybe he is in some palace basement watching all the fuss about him on CNN

Posted by: Pft | Oct 20 2018 0:46 utc | 232

Every word that's coming from the Saudis is false. Trump and his minions are doing everything in their power to whitewash this and make it go away to normalize relations with that barbarian MbS and the corrupt Monarchy. Zionists need the Saudis for their evil plan to destroy Yemen and Iran and Trump will deliver.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 20 2018 0:52 utc | 233

LittleWhiteCabbage @ 223:

I would not trust Hatice Cengiz (the fiancée) even if Jamal Khashoggi did.

Apparently her family did not know she was engaged to marry him until the news of his disappearance / murder became public. She has not been living with her birth family for some time. She first met Khashoggi only in May this year. She is linked to a humanitarian aid organisation whose head Bulent Yıldırım appears to have links with ISIS and al Qaeda.
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/gulf/2018/10/18/Khashoggi-s-alleged-fianc-e-and-ties-to-a-radical-charity-linked-to-ISIS-al-Qaeda.html
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/former-turkish-counter-terror-chief-exposes-governments-support-for-isis-d12238698f52

Methinks we would be wise not to give this 36-year-old "girl" a pass.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 20 2018 2:05 utc | 234

So here's how I see the conspiracy devolution here: Moses goes up the mountain, right, to receive the ten Commandments and when he returns his followers have gone crazy and turned to welding together and worshipping a golden calf. Some people just can't be left alone with the truth for too long because without rational direction they'll twist it, corrupt it and turn it into something wildly ridiculous and grotesque.

@234 Sources matter, and I'm not buying those.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 20 2018 2:58 utc | 235

@234, thank you, Jen. Her political convictions should be cause for reflection, but Khashoggi can't have been unaware.
The claim that ``her family was not aware '' attributed to unknown sources is questionable, imo.
Initial reports quoted Hatiz saying that her father was not comfortable with the May-December gap between her and suitor. She's 36, and Khashoggi was 59.
Given the media circus around the case, and possibly under surveillance, the family may just be fearful of getting dragged into things they don't know about.
Discretion is always the better part of valour.


Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 20 2018 5:57 utc | 236

Whether the honeypot was part of the plot from the start, or whether that was something in parallel I don't know, but if it was part of the plot then almost automatically that would mean Turkey was fully in on the plot. That would be interesting, because it would mean Erdogan was actively plotting against Trump. It would be interesting to look at the timeline of Turkey's relations with Trump, and what was happening in March-April-May. When was Erdogan's visit to Washington, when he was snubbed by Trump offhand, I suspect 2017? This affair has been planned a long time in advance.

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 6:54 utc | 237

Things are really starting to fall in place for me. The key instigator of the whole plot was the C__, maybe Brennan. They had two objectives: primary objective was to undermine Trump as Russiagate continues to collapse; secondary objective was to replace MbS with their man, al Nayef. The principle motive for the action against Trump, in turn, is for the criminal plotters to save their skins from jail for their actions under Obama - this is the overwhelming motive for the whole of Russiagate et al. The Khashoggi affaire is a continuation of that - undermine Trump so that the criminals can block investigations against them; that is why I put the installation of al Nayef as the secondary aim rather than the primary.

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:06 utc | 238

But the biggest strategic winner from the affair will probably be: Vladimir Putin, who until now has been sitting back watching the show unfold, laughing at the stupidity of the C__ and SA messing up everything they do.

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:07 utc | 239

Brennan did not want the Khashoggi killing in Washington - that would raise too many awkward questions about the Saudi embassy in Washington and 9/11. The CIA would certainly know that Turkey had comprehensively bugged the Saudi embassy in Ankara probably including the CCTV network which Turkey could view live over the internet, obviously encrypted, as I suggested recently, so that was the ideal location. Probably for the signal they could be using a modulated signal on the mains wire, for example. Turkish references to the 'audio tape' sometimes mention facts that would normally be impossible to determine from the audio alone - such as the forensic man putting earphones in his ears.

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:08 utc | 240

Khashoggi was a CIA asset with close and high-level connections in the CIA, so it is natural he would get their opinion of the safety of going in the embassy in Ankara - he was their patsy, so they told him it was as safe as pie, and he had confidence in their answer. Khashoggi according to one claim was told by the Saudi embassy in Washington to go to Ankara - that was probably planted by the CIA through their man in the Washington embassy.

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:09 utc | 241

As Tom Gard pointed out above, once Khashoggi was in the embassy on sovereign Saudi territory he could have been arrested and legally sent to Saudi by force. Killing him in Ankara made no sense whatsoever - except to the CIA. The gratuitous alleged! torture and barbarism was also totally unnecessary. Was he really carved up alive?? This was almost certainly the result of manipulation of MbS by the CIA, who specifically wanted the video recordings to be as barbarous as possible, to maximise the effect against Trump. Everybody knows SA is barbaric, so the CIA needed something really extreme to be sure of whipping up sufficient frenzy against MbS to ensure a successful regime change.

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:10 utc | 242

When considering the role of the CIA and allied congressional warmongers such as Lindsay Graham, it is important to bear in mind that they do not aim to destroy Washington's relations with Saudi Arabia - on the contrary, they want to destroy MbS and install their puppet al Nayef, following which everything between Washington and Riyadh will be even more loving and cuddly than ever before - almost all the princes are against MbS and afraid of him, and will welcome the US with open arms. This damage to relations would be critically dependent on MbS staying in power or the CIA's man failing to come to power. BUT - see Putin's twist coming below!

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:10 utc | 243

As soon as news of the affair came out, Putin was in Riyadh meeting with MbS. Well, isn't that interesting? Not only had NSA monitored SigInt details of the SA plot to kill Khashoggi, but the Russians probably also had relevant SigInt. It was probably Putin who advised the King to call back MbS's younger brother to install as Crown Prince in place of MbS. Putin probably made clear that the CIA laid a trap for MbS and manipulated him to make the killing as barbaric as possible. MbS might even have been offered a possibility of a come-back later once things had settled down, although if the younger brother were more stable than MbS Putin would probably prefer him. Or, the younger brother may just be kept as a fall-back in case the going gets too tough for MbS to continue - by contrast, if al Nayef comes to power, then MbS gets the Khashoggi treatment - for MbS to give in to the CIA plan is utterly deadly for him. If things get too difficult for MbS he will try to get protection from Putin - Putin will help, but with strings - the primary condition being handing over the reins to his younger brother. MbS doesn't want that, but at least he gets to keep his life, and maybe he thinks he can make a come-back later.

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:11 utc | 244

The younger brother replacing MbS to deflect the imposition of a CIA puppet is a brilliant plan - classic Putin. If successful, what would be the effect on relations between Saudi and Russia? Well, bearing in mind that the US CIA cabal elite have burnt all boats with MbS big time, their with his brother are not going to be good. Russia - and ultimately China, Iran etc - will be the big time winners.

If Trump manages to fare OK in the House in November, and the younger brother takes over as crown prince, he might be able to maintain reasonable relations with Saudi, although I suspect Putins relations will be closer. However I suspect Putin will try to keep a balance and not destroy the US-Saudi relations completely, for the sake of global stability - however in the long term he would then have the upper hand, and everything will be downhill for the US.

It is said that two of the 15 killers have already died - an Air Force general in a plane crash, and someone else in a car crash. They were probably recognised as key manipulators of MbS, egging him on to make it as barbarous as possible - i.e. CIA assets. I suspect the forensic man will be the next.

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:13 utc | 245

@ BM
Very similar to what I am thinking. Turks and a US anti Trump faction are fellow travelers in this escapade, each for their own reasons. Hard to tell who approached who to set it off, but the jailed pastor was part of the deal.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 20 2018 7:18 utc | 246

The comments above Nrs. [not accepted], 238, 239, 237, 240-245 - in that order! are most of the comment I have been trying to post since yesterday. The first part I could not post at all, even retyped! Something seems to be programmed to reject it. That was about the fia__ee being a honeypot etc. Maybe C__ doesn't like me posting about that!

Posted by: BM | Oct 20 2018 7:20 utc | 247

@ BM
I posted my first comment after reading your first two not realizing there was more to come.
In the media, even in the comment section here, Russia, or Putin, is the dog that hasn't barked. Putin's envoy was in Riyadh long before Pompeo. I mentioned it early in this comment thread but not many seem to find it important enough to comment about. I have thought that this bit of excitement in Turkey is an asymmetrical comeback against US plans for a full on assault of Syria and Russian forces stationed there, if the Idlib offensive went ahead.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 20 2018 7:46 utc | 248

B M & Peter Au1
Such a weight off my mind to here ALL of your above comments ! I can’t fault eny thing.brillient.
We all have our gifts, mine are instinct based on 35 years of awareness, my agenda is truth not a poltical side(devide and rule) you have the academic skills I lack !
It’s a big picture ! The Putin awareness I agree.
Also the uk used a high up established figure, to make a direct accusation implicating trump (that’s big) points the finger at the usal suspect z—nists
Lastly another dog that didn’t bark ? Israil, jus say’n.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 20 2018 8:27 utc | 249

@240: the bloody deed took place in Istanbul, not Ankara

Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 20 2018 9:53 utc | 251

LittleWhiteCabbage 251

Go and cry with wartman. While your're crying you two can pick nits out of each others hair. It is fucking obvious the US faction did not want the killing taking place in the US.
The killing did take place in the Istanbul consulate, but for most, myself include, it is easy to to put in a wrong name or place when typing out a long line of thought.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 20 2018 10:06 utc | 252

@252: LOL!!
The simple basics: who, WHERE, when, what and why. You don't even need Columbia School of Journalism to learn that.
When a person rushes out rambling, multiple comments - not giving a toss for the key fundamentals - it MAY suggest that the poster is pounding out his pre-determined narrative, his version of truth; not extrapolating or analyzing with thought.
``Seek truth from facts''
Having said that, he can call them as he sees them, as his claque cheers him on. It's his right.
But, sorry, I am not in that group of clappers when Putin, C*A and, maybe soon, even Rasputin, start cropping up.
Anyways, has spring fever struck in Australia yet?


Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 20 2018 11:39 utc | 253

Best of... I guess if anyone want to know which Arab newspapers are on Saudi pay roll, they can just open them one by one for the last 2 weeks...
"Regional allies praise Saudi's response to ongoing Khashoggi probe

Saudi Arabia's allies in the Middle East rallied behind the kingdom over its response to the ongoing investigation into the killing of Saudi writer and critic Khashoggi.

Egypt praised Saudi's King Salman for taking "decisive" action over the killing of dissident Saudi journalist Khashoggi.

On Saturday, Saudi state media reported that King Salman had ordered the formation of a ministerial committee, headed by Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman, to restructure the Kingdom's intelligence services.

"Egypt sees that the brave and decisive decisions and actions taken by the Saudi King over this matter align with his majesty's approach that respects the principles of law and applications of effective justice," the Egyptian Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
READ MORE
How the Saudi narrative of Khashoggi's killing changed in 18 days

The ministry offered its condolences to Khashoggi's family and said it was confident the ongoing probe into his death would reveal the truth.

The United Arab Emirates (UAE) also voiced support for Saudi's King Salman and commended his "directives and decisions … on the issue of Kashoggi", UAE's state-run WAM news agency reported.

Bahrain, meanwhile, said in an official statement that Saudi Arabia "will remain a state of justice, value and principles", the Saudi-owned Al Arabiya TV network reported."
(from Aljazeera live)

Posted by: Mina | Oct 20 2018 14:37 utc | 254

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