Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 17, 2018

Saudis Stonewall On Khashoggi But Pressure Will Increase

The most interesting aspect of the botched assassination of Jamal Khashoggi is the insight it creates into political conflicts in U.S. domestic and international policies.

The Saudi clown prince Mohammad bin Salman unwittingly did a huge favor to Turkey's president Erdogan when he send a crew to abduct or kill Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Erdogan is in a historic geopolitical conflict with Saudi Arabia over supremacy in the Middle East.

The Turks had the Saudi consulate bugged. Every country in the world tries to plant listening devices into foreign embassies and consulates. It is no surprise then that the Turks know what happened within the consulate and use the evidence to squeeze the Saudis. Erdogan knows how to play the media and does his very best to drag out the story. He will press the Saudis for financial and political gains.

On Monday the White House floated the idea that a 'rogue killer' was responsible for the ghastly deed in Istanbul. Trump himself led the campaign:

President Donald Trump on Monday repeatedly highlighted the Saudi King's denial of involvement in the disappearance of Jamal Khashoggi, at one point offering up an alternative theory that "rogue killers," rather than agents of the Saudi regime, were involved.

U.S. media made it seem as if the Saudis were flying that test ballon. But the Saudis rejected it way out. They say, to this day, that they are not aware that anything happened in their consulate at all. It was likely Netanyahoo's errand-boy in the White House, Jared Kushner, who floated the 'rogue killer' tale:

A senior Trump administration official said Kushner has a close relationship with Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the heir to the Saudi throne, and the pair have been in direct phone conversations about Khashoggi. These calls have been part of a White House push to get Saudi Arabia to participate in an investigation into Khashoggi’s case.

Anyway - the ballon was filled with lead. Erdogan had already made sure that such a story would not fly.

This site reported on Wednesday October 10 that the men the Turks had identified were directly related to the clown prince:

The Turkish government published pictures of 15 men who had come from Saudi Arabia and were in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul shortly before Khashoggi visited it to get his divorce papers. They moved Khashoggi to the residence of the consul and later that day flew back on the same two private Saudi jets that had brought them to Istanbul.

At least 8 of the 15 men have been identified as Saudi royal military. At least three are bodyguards of the Saudi clown prince Mohammad bin Salman. It is thereby obvious that the clown prince himself gave the order for the operation. One of the 15 is Dr. Salah Muhammed Al-Tubaigy, the head of forensic evidence at the Saudi General Security Department.

It took the U.S. media a week to explain to their readers that the killers are part of MbS' personal entourage. Today the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post finally put the above 'news' onto their frontpages.

Why did the media held back on this so for so long?

After the Saudis rejected the 'rogue' fairytale. Trump stepped back from it and points to the lack of any confession:

President Donald Trump launched a concerted defense of Saudi Arabia for the disappearance and suspected murder of Jamal Khashoggi, saying the country's crown prince "totally denied" knowledge about the suspected death of the Washington Post journalist and complaining that the country was being assumed "guilty until proven innocent."

This is fully in line with the Saudi strategy. They do not admit anything, not even something 'rogue'. They do not want to make a deal - yet. When Secretary of State visited yesterday they did did not even talk about the publicly known facts:

Reporter: Did they say that Khashoggi was alive or dead?
Secretary Pompeo: I don't want to talk about any of the facts. They didn't want to either.

They Saudis only promised to investigate themselves.

Some people seem to believe that the Turks somehow vanished Khashoggi and fabricated the evidence. But there has been no explanation by the Saudis or anyone else for the two Saudi jets, owned by the king, that were tracked flying to Istanbul and left the same day to return to Riyadh.

Flight data collected by AirNavRadarBox, a firm that tracks private and commercial planes all over the world, showed that the first of the two planes left Riyadh late Oct. 1 and touched down in Istanbul the following day at 3:15 a.m.
Flight data shows that a second private jet, believed by investigators to be transporting the rest of the team, touched down in Istanbul at 5:15 p.m. It is unclear whether those on board traveled to either the consulate or the residence. It departed an hour and 15 minutes after it arrived, heading for Cairo. Twenty-five hours after its arrival in Cairo, the plane left for Riyadh.

There are also hotel records and CCTV video showing the Saudi team. There is no way Turkey could have faked all of this. The Saudi government made no serious attempt to explain why these people, including the clown prince's personal body guards, flew to Istanbul and were in the consulate when Khashoggi entered it. MbS also had a motive. Khashoggi was a Muslim Brotherhood and intelligence asset that had turned into a mouthpiece for the internal opposition against the Salmans.

MbS is the first Saudi ruler who broke the families rules of consultation and monopolized the decision making. He jailed and tortured other princes to rob them of their money. The people MbS hurt were talking to Khashoggi who had a public perch at the Washington Post to vent their grievances:

[Prince] Ahmed was appalled at the destructive nature of MbS' policies and his recklessness. [..] Jamal Khashoggi knew this. While it spoke volumes about his agreeable nature, it also sometimes was a curse that senior royals liked to sound off to him.
There are other Saudi royals out there, less in seniority to Ahmed bin Abdulaziz, yet also sons and nephews of kings. It is their reaching out to Jamal, relayed to MbS by his fawning apparatchiks, that created an incendiary environment in his office and led to that death warrant.

That explanation makes sense. One of the Saudis identified in Istanbul was Maher Abdilaziz Mutreb, a body guard who is regularly seen traveling with MbS. In 2011 Mutreb was trained in the use of spy software by the Italian surveillance malware vendor Hacking Team. He is one of MbS' 'fawning apparatchiks' who spy on other royals and their contacts to journalists in the west.

We can lay the conspiracy theory that Erdogan faked the incident to rest. He was simply lucky that MbS was stupid enough to let his hapless bodyguards kill Khashoggi in Turkey, where he had top connections to an anti-Saudi ruler who did not hesitate to escalate the issue into a larger conflict.

After the Saudis rejected the 'rogue killer' plot and the first attempt of a deal failed, the well managed bit by bit revelations from Turkey restarted. Erdogan wants to make sure that the story stays on the frontpages until he gets his deal. Yesterday evening anonymous Turkish officials started to brief reporters about the content of the tape they have of the incident:

It took seven minutes for Jamal Khashoggi to die, a Turkish source who has listened in full to an audio recording of the Saudi journalist's last moments told Middle East Eye.
Salah Muhammad al-Tubaigy, who has been identified as the head of forensic evidence in the Saudi general security department, was one of the 15-member squad who arrived in Ankara earlier that day on a private jet.

Tubaigy began to cut Khashoggi’s body up on a table in the study while he was still alive, the Turkish source said.

The killing took seven minutes, the source said.

As he started to dismember the body, Tubaigy put on earphones and listened to music. He advised other members of the squad to do the same.

“When I do this job, I listen to music. You should do [that] too,” Tubaigy was recorded as saying, the source told MEE.

The described scene proves that the Saudis are very 'moderate', even kuffaar (unbelievers) in the eye of extreme Islamists. As an experience Middle East correspondent snarked:

Elijah J. Magnier @ejmalrai

I tell you what is the difference between #ISIS & #SaudiArabia practice:
- #ISIS will never listen to music while beheading & dismembering their victim
- #SaudiArabia, due to the moderate reformer MBS, listen to Music while cutting the body of #Khashoggi

Parts of the audio tape were handed over to a Turkish outlet but are not yet public. They will be released when it fits Erdogan's strategy.

Yesterday the Turkish police tried to search the residence of the Saudi consul in Istanbul. The killer team went there after they left the consulate. The police assumes that Khashoggi's body, or its parts, are buried in the residency's garden. But the consul left unexpectedly to Riyadh and warned that the residency is under diplomatic protection. The police has no right to search it without Saudi consent.

Secretary of State Pompeo tries his best to negotiate between Turkey and Saudi Arabia. His task is to limit the damage the incident does to the house of Saud and especially to MbS. But the Saudis stonewalled, while Erdogan played the tape to him.

As longer the dealing takes, the more gruesome will be the details dripped from Turkish sources.

The backlash against the Saudis in U.S. media and in Congress will only increase.The incident has international consequences. The managing director of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, announced that she will not attend next week's Future Investment Initiative in Riyadh. She follows a long list of CEOs and media moguls who canceled their attendance. The foreign ministers of the G7 issued a statement demanding an investigation. The scandal is bad for the future of Saudi Arabia's economy. The mood in Riyadh is fraught.

The Washington Post, for which Khashoggi wrote opinion pieces, will not let go of the issue. Nor will other U.S. media.

Everyone but Trump wants to see MbS leave. Even Senator Graham Lindsay, a warmongering ally of Donald Trump, promises to get rid of Mohammad bin Salman:

“I’m not going back to Saudi Arabia as long as this guy is in charge,” Graham said of bin Salman. “I’ve been their biggest defender on the floor of the United States Senate. This guy is a wrecking ball. He had [Khashoggi] murdered in a consulate in Turkey and to expect me to ignore it, I feel used and abused. The MBS figure is to me toxic, he can never be a world leader on the world stage.”

“It’s up to the president, but what I would do — Well, I know what I’m going to do. I’m gonna sanction the hell out of Saudi Arabia,” Graham added when asked if Trump should impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia.

One wonders what Graham's motives are. On several issues - Iran, Israel, Syria - MbS is fully in line with his policies. Who then is lobbying him to work against MbS? It is not the Zionist lobby. The Israelis surely want to keep MbS as they can play him like a fiddle.

Could the United Arab Emirates and their current strongman Mohammed bin Zayed be behind Graham's stand?

While MbZ is publicly a dear friend of MbS, both have recently clashed in their common attack on Yemen. MbS wants the Yemeni oil fields, a pipeline from Saudi Arabia through west Yemen, and a port where Saudi oil can be shipped from without passage through the Iran controlled Street of Hormuz.

But the ports of Yemen are the bounty MbZ wants to win for Dubai Port World which is “one of the instruments of [the UAE’s] global affirmation strategy.” He wants to control all of the Yemeni coast and all of its islands. The clash between Saudi Arabia and the UAE in Yemen is obvious for the people on the ground. The UAE even hired U.S. mercenaries to kill off locals leaders belonging to the Islah party which is a Saudi assets.

It is the UAE and its ambassador Yousef Al Otaiba who spend more on lobbying Washington than any other Arab country - at least $21.3 million in 2017. There are connections between UAE lobbying and Lindsay Graham through Elliott Broidy who also raised funds for Trump's election campaign.

A major Trump foreign policy is the new sanction regime against Iran. But without extra oil pumped by the Saudis the new sanctions on Iranian oil, which go into effect in early November, will increase oil prices and tank the U.S. economy.

It seems that MbS decided to sit out the storm over his murder of Khashoggi. He can pressure Trump by holding back oil exports. Trump would probably like to follow that strategy, if only to avoid any oil shortages. But the domestic and international pressure seems to become too big. As Erdogan continues the drip by drip release of sensational evidence and the Washington Post piles on, Trump will have to do something more than sending Pompeo for useless talks.

Stopping all U.S. support for the war on Yemen would be good start.

But it would not be enough. MbS needs to be removed.

The Trump administration has no ambassador in Saudi Arabia. The White House connection to the Saudi rulers ran solely through the Kushner-MbS phone-line. But that line is now useless. Trump will need to send someone who has good relations with the King himself. Only he can remove the clown prince. The King is 82 years old and not in good health. MbS might well be ruthless enough to suddenly let him die. Trump will have to act as soon as possible. 

Posted by b on October 17, 2018 at 17:47 UTC | Permalink

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b does an excellent job describing how complex the Khashoggi killing situation really is. So many different players with varying interests. But two groups could be distinguished:
1) MbS supporters, Israelis, Kushner and Trump,
2) MbS opponents, CIA, Deep State, MbZ etc.
MbS opponents want MbS replaced by the CIA Saudi prince, the dying Saudi king may try to substitute MbS with MbS’ younger brother Khaled, because the CIA prince is not his direct blood.

On top of this, there are major political and financial interests trying to do a big shake down of KSA, primarily Turkey, but also UAE, US and Israel (wherever there is money to be made).

My estimate is that the CIA prince has 2/3 chance of winning, whilst the younger brother and MbS himself have 1/3 chance of remaining in control of KSA. MbS is simply young, daring and utterly foolish, an accident waiting to happen. But here he is not fighting only for the title, he is fighting for his survival - once out of power his lifetime will be short and his end as brutal as Khashoggi’s.

Posted by: Kiza | Oct 17 2018 18:40 utc | 1

Thank you MoA for your insightful reports.

Posted by: AriusArmenian | Oct 17 2018 18:40 utc | 2

thanks b.. i think you are right on the role of uae here.. they have graham and wapo in there back pocket as they are on the uae payroll.. the uae prince mbz is a shrewd player and mbs is not near as shrewd.. i think trump is out of his league here, but as a cunning ruler, erdogan continues to shine..

Posted by: james | Oct 17 2018 18:42 utc | 3

The succession sequence among monarchies in the Arab world is not necessarily the same as in the western monarchies. There's no automatic succession by order of birth, as in UK for example. It's a matter of consensus among the princes, i.e. the major princes. Even an existing Crown Prince could be dropped, I believe, if there was sufficient opposition.

What happened in Jordan was that Hussein, though very sick, came back from hospital, and threw out his brother Hassan, former crown prince, and installed his son Abdullah as CP. He had the influence to do so. Salman does not. MbS depends on his own personal authority. Doing away with his father might not work, if he has offended enough of his relatives.

Posted by: Laguerre | Oct 17 2018 18:45 utc | 4

MBS will have to eliminate his father soon. The old man can clearly see the Prince's psychotic behavior will bring the Kingdom to its knees.

It was the father who went to Moscow and who expressed large interest in S-400 missile defense and other Russian weapons.

Russia has stakes in Yemen. It would like the old port-base of USSR days.

Maybe the Russians will help the father take down the Prince.

The next few weeks will show some indication of not just Erdogan's reach into Saudi affairs. But Russia may also 'lend a hand' to the King.


Posted by: Red Ryder | Oct 17 2018 18:46 utc | 5

Thanks for updating the situation, b!

Not that MbS will be arrested, the lack of the body of the murdered person is not required to reach a guilty verdict. As forensic evidence, the audio recording ought to be sufficient if it's as gory as reported. So, what happens when Erdogan okays playing the tape? I doubt it can be proven MbS ordered the killing, but those involved with the murder are known. The Capital Crime within a diplomatic building would be tried within that nation--Turkey--provided it pressed charges and issued arrest warrants. But none of that solves the Succession Crisis which is the root of the problem as I outlined on the previous thread. IMO, the faction wanting MbS out must engineer that within Saudi--either the King removes him, he steps down, or gets assassinated. To remain, MbS must avoid those 3 possibilities, although he'll remain damaged goods, particularly if illegally sanctioned as seems likely.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 17 2018 18:48 utc | 6

Ever since Turkey's Syria adventure was scuttled by Russian intervention, Erdogan has been rather brilliant in his leadership. He's outmaneuvored Europe, The Kurds, 'Coup plotters', USA, and now KSA. I wonder if he's hotlining with Putin over affairs.

Posted by: aaaa | Oct 17 2018 18:50 utc | 7

When everyone -- literally everyone -- jumps on the same story and narrative, the given "reality" of geopolitical conflict is shown to be a stage front for backstage global mob regime. The dissonance would be jarring were not the peanut gallery been kindly conditioned to accept their role in cheering for one side and booing the other. Now the interesting question is why pick on MbS given there is no deficit of nasty characters on the global stage. I think someone doesn't want to hold up their end of a grand bargain made in the early 70s.

Posted by: realist | Oct 17 2018 18:54 utc | 8

As a regular over on Zerohedge I am staggered at the skepticism of this story and all the whataboutery. Total dehumanization of Khashoggi and distrust shown towards Erdogan and tacit sympathy or "dirty mud-slimes" got it coming, who cares.

I guess that is my fault for getting my news from Trump loving libertarians and the mass of idiots (mea culpa) in the commentariat.

Posted by: Anunnaki | Oct 17 2018 18:58 utc | 9

Anonymous Turkish officials are OK for now but Erdogan better be sure the tape and all the grisly details are correct. MbS will keep stalling till the proof is public.

Posted by: dh | Oct 17 2018 19:03 utc | 10

about mbs taking out his old man.... i mentioned this in my post earlier today in the previous thread.. a poster named kula mentioned the old man has dementia, so i dont think it is necessary.. mbs can just do himself in on his own...

david h posted a worthwhile comment on sst or ssr a few minutes ago of a qoute from a brown university prof that is worth reading for the rationale as to why the us msm is staying on this story... his comments, as cynical as they are, make a lot of sense.. i would copy and paste if i knew how via ipad...

the role i am trying to figure out here is israels... they are loosing out if they lose mbs.. i guess they are already trying to figure out how to profit off dismembering ksa, or finding a suitable despot tyrant in the short term to keep the facade going...

Posted by: james | Oct 17 2018 19:07 utc | 11

In addition to b's quote from the WaPo on the flight route of the one plane which took a day off in Cairo, from the same source:

The initial plane left Istanbul at 10:45 p.m. and made a stop about 280 miles to the east in Nallihan, Turkey. Then it skirted the border between Iraq and Iran, favoring the Iraqi side, and crossed over the Persian Gulf. It landed in Dubai at 2:30 a.m. The following morning, Oct. 3, it took off for Riyadh.
So I conclude we can look for some parts of Khashoggi deep in the great pyramid and others on top of the Burj Khalifa.

Seriously b, no problem if you think the idea of an MbS framing by Muslim brothers Erdogan and Khashoggi is bogus (I still disagree), but you really shouldn't use the loaded term "conspiracy theory" to describe it. That insults the readers. It seems your analysis is, like with the Kurdish issue in Syria, a bit flawed by a view too close to Turkey. I just hope it's not because you have a dominant Turkish wife like a certain Eliot "Brown Noses" Higgins. ;o)

Posted by: CE | Oct 17 2018 19:16 utc | 12

Many thanks, B, you just keep churning them out! I'm grateful I can read and post comments here. Too bad I'm mostly out of my depth here with your fresh angles, MbZ etc.

What I'd like to know is what types of planes the 2 kill teams travelled on. Since theirs weren't regular commercial flights, the exact model might hint at how high up the command chains their instigators and supporters were located. Apparently, it's Saudia, KSA's national carrier, that does official and government flights. Were the killers' planes any of Saudia's Special Flight Services fleet, incidentally?

Note how the Saudi ambassador had to get out of Turkey on a regular flight, or so they say. He doesn't seem to carry much weight. Should MbS and his lunatic circle decide to put the blame on "individual wrongdoing" and throw someone under the bus, I somehow doubt it will be anyone of the kill team. Rather, if I were this ambassador guy, I'd be freaked out by now, for fear they might pick me.

Anyway, let's not get those sorry excuses for human beings get away with this one! They're farting everyone right in the face.

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Oct 17 2018 19:23 utc | 13


The planes are described in the same WaPo article as "Gulfstream IV planes [...] owned by Riyadh-based Sky Prime Aviation Services".

Posted by: CE | Oct 17 2018 19:33 utc | 14

I doubt if the Saudi ambassador would have left Ankara for Istanbul to be on the spot for the visit. All the reporting only mentions the consul.

Posted by: lysias | Oct 17 2018 19:35 utc | 15

From the outside, there might be some similarities between Skripal and Kashoggi affairs. Except that the Saudis don't know where Kashoggi is, yet don't seem to be worried about his whereabouts and don't make a fuss against Turkey, which is a bit more suspicious. Though the one key difference lies in the ones claimed guilty: in one hand, we have a guy who's came to power in part due to his own successful scheming, who has always been smart and who has outmanoeuvered his opponents at times, and has steadily and quite well led his country for nearly 20 years, yet who suddenly has buffoons fucking up an assassination attempt - with killer poison - like rank amateurs that never did a hit in their life (basically, like they were Saudi stooges); on the other hand, we have a guy who came to power because he was born into it, who had plenty of dreams of grandeur that came crashing down, or at best who didn't work out and left him stuck with mess on his hands, and that latest affair is only par for the course and shouldn't come as a big surprise, coming from the leading buffoon from a pack of idiotic buffoons.
Of course, there's more than this when it comes to Western reactions, specially the media. UAE and qatari money might be one, the coming midterms in US - and the growing loathing of the American public for the Saudis - might also explain why top politicians that run for reelection are busy trying to bash such an easy target in the hope of gaining some votes. One could also suspect there are other unseen and unknown motives, that might become more evident in the long run.
As for me, I care less about dark motives in this specific case, as opposed to, say, Syria, China or Russia. Saudi Arabia is such a heinous regime with so many awful lunatics in it that anything that portrays them as bad as they truly are is welcome, whether it's fake or right, and whatever the (hopefully bad) consequences for the Saudis.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Oct 17 2018 19:44 utc | 16

*by a friend of Khashoggi indicating deadly enmity with MbS (3 OCT)

*the following account extends b's point above suggesting Khashoggi was too much of a rival to MbS in terms of opposing princes reaching out to him once he had escaped to America;

it also includes further details on what happened:

Posted by: Sid2 | Oct 17 2018 19:45 utc | 17

@Realist 8
Great comment from you as usual. Media are just a stage, while the backstage reality is mobs fighting for money and power. Despite the possibly gruesome murder (although I am sceptical, it could have been a heart failure under torture followed up by a cut up), this fight of the factions of the Deep State and the assorted Zionists is almost hilarious. Even the victim himself has been a mobster. As you say, we in the peanut gallery have been given the role to demand MbS’ head for this small crime when compared with huge other MbS’ crimes.

Do not we all wish that there was at least one clean character, a true leader of the people’s cause, instead of this worthless, murderous and greedy trash everywhere? Whoever wins this fight, we lose (again).

Posted by: Kiza | Oct 17 2018 19:47 utc | 18

from a NY Times report yesterday on the doctor accompanying the team re Khashoggi:

Dr. Tubaigy, who maintained a presence on several social media platforms, identified himself on his Twitter account as the head of the Saudi Scientific Council of Forensics and held lofty positions in the kingdom’s premier medical school as well as in its Interior Ministry. He studied at the University of Glasgow and in 2015 he spent three months in Australia as a visiting forensic pathologist at the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine. His published writings include works on dissection and mobile autopsies.

Although there is no public record of a relationship between him and the royal court, such a senior figure in the Saudi medical establishment was unlikely to join a rogue expedition organized by an underling.

Posted by: Sid2 | Oct 17 2018 19:53 utc | 19

Here are some more details on the 11-minute audio recordings allegedly in Turkish possession:

The network stated that, after he sat in the consul’s office, several security elements joined Khashoggi and began talking to him using a harsh language. Afterward, the journalist was heard screaming and mentioning being attacked with needles. Then, his voice faded away.

According to the recordings, the first group of Saudi intelligence elements tried to get rid of Khashoggi’s body, but the Turkish police do not know whether the attempt to dispose of the corpse took place inside the consulate or in the House of the Saudi Consul.

Another interesting twist is the WaPo profile photo of Khashoggi and the 'selfie' taken with his fiancee (they are both identical):

Here is a funny rendition on this same 'selfie':

Posted by: jsb | Oct 17 2018 19:55 utc | 20

Another interesting thing to observe is that all mobs have activated their troll brigades and virtually all comments sections have been flooded. To a careful observer, it is not difficult to distinguish the professionals. I find troll wars fascinating because they are the future of public opinion forming, MSM will play only a secondary role.

Posted by: Kiza | Oct 17 2018 19:56 utc | 21

@18 audio being leaked indicates Khashoggi screamed horribly and was dragged into an adjoining room with the Saudi Consul worried he was getting into trouble, thence to the surgeon putting on earphones (and advising the others to do so) to listen to music while doing "the work" including cutting off fingers while Khashoggi was unconscious but still alive . . .

Plus we now know 7 members of the team were connected to MbS's private bodyguard, and at least some of them flew in Royal jets to Istanbul.

Given MbS's record of the past few years these accounts seem more plausible than the Turk's made it all up etc.

Posted by: Sid2 | Oct 17 2018 20:01 utc | 22

So from the article linked above
we now have a UK paper quoting someone who has heard the audio or knows someone who has.
Can't wait for the Desert Davos.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 17 2018 20:03 utc | 23

Given the escalation represented by the BigLie Media articles, I expect the ball's now in Congress's court, and we should expect hearings aimed at sanctioning Saudi perhaps as soon as tomorrow. Would Trump defy Congress and veto such legislation? Which party's favored by this crisis and how might it impact the very important mid-term election? IMO, both parties need to show they're Tough on Saudi, and it would probably be unwise for Trump to veto as it will likely worsen his political position.

This is getting spread very wide by media, with my local paper running NY Times reprints above the fold for the past two days; so, I wonder how it's playing in Peoria as the saying goes. It may appear odd to opine thusly, but IMO Trump's in worse political shape here than MbS as he's given his enemies something better to bash him with than the almost forgotten and non-credible Russiagate.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 17 2018 20:07 utc | 24

In my opinion, re my 4, I don't think MbS would do better by doing away with his old father, as b suggests at the end of his piece. Yes the old guy certainly has dementia. There would be a critical point, if he did that, in gaining sufficient support for the oath of allegiance. It's putting his appointment at risk of being voted down by his relatives. Better to continue as he is, as having complete power in second position.

Posted by: Laguerre | Oct 17 2018 20:11 utc | 25

Here's the answer why the Donald wants to go easy, must go easy on the Saudis, it's the dollar pricing of oil, if that goes the Republic is in the Mother of all shite because the dollar status as the world reserve currency gets severely undermined:

Posted by: Baron | Oct 17 2018 20:28 utc | 26

Excellent analysis. I agree that MBS must go. The US will put eventually pressure on the king to remove him from power, however, Trump continues to act like an idiot calling MBS innocent until proven guilty and comparing him to Kavanaugh. The year, 2020, cannot come fast enough!

Posted by: craigsummers | Oct 17 2018 20:31 utc | 27

On b's question why Graham upset:

Looks like he's pissed because MbS has humiliated Trump and himself. At stake is Trump's deal making over restraining the threat from KSA to put a stopper on oil flow and drive up prices.

(Graham) [00:01:59] Well so this guy is full of himself. You know he's getting all this praise including from me. I've been on the floor defending their actions in Yemen. I've been on the floor saying there's been a good ally when it comes to the war on terror. They've not been perfect by any means. I've been trying to beat back this effort to serve our relationship with Saudi Arabia. So what does this mean? For this MBS to put us in this spot shows contempt for us in our relationship. Nobody has done more for Saudi Arabia than President Trump. Nobody has been there on their side more than I have in the Senate. Maybe Senator McCain and this is the way you get repaid?

Posted by: Sid2 | Oct 17 2018 20:35 utc | 28

I won't count MBS out until if and when he leaves or is killed. Like Merkel, he's good at eliminating opposition, leaving no one strong enough to take the reins from him.

And once again, it's completely despicable that all the "respectable" media and politicians in the west are more concerned about a shady Muslim Brotherhood operative masquerading as a journalist than they are about millions of people dying and starving in Yemen because of Saudi Arabia, FUKUS, and UAE.

Posted by: worldblee | Oct 17 2018 20:40 utc | 29

Look at it from this angle: Can anybody envision MbS staying on, and him meet again in the future with the British Queen, even Theresa May?

He'll be toxic till his dying days, and a liability to the other 'reformers'.

Oh, btw., after this whole episode is concluded, we should do a great roundup of quotes from int'l newspapers carrying the term 'reformer' via a vis MbS. Great exercise of name & shame.

Posted by: bjd | Oct 17 2018 20:45 utc | 30

Anyone have a handle on what the public in Saudi are being told by their media? Is there any groundswell there against what has happened? Seems like a black news hole, we hear all about what happened to the journalist but not what this means inside Saudi Arabia, if anything.

Posted by: anon2 | Oct 17 2018 20:47 utc | 31


- MbS didn't sign the arms deals. Later, would also back out of floating Aramaco as well.

- Then the Saudis talk with Russia about S400.

- Khashoggi floats idea of 'DAWN' (Democracy for the Arab World Now => the stuff of CIA-MB color revolution), seeks to marry a women close to Erdogan (Muslim Brotherhood) and is apparently 'point man' for disgruntled Saudi princes.

Khashoggi is killed. MbS and King Salman probably knew that doing so was acting against CIA-MB.

Pompeo visit results in NO DEAL. Still no signing of arms contracts!?!?

Western media jump on the story.

Has MbS himself gone "rogue"? Is his next step to kill the King or align with Russia/SCO? Possible that we see an overthrow of King Salman and MbS altogether. Dramatic developments to come, I think.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 17 2018 20:49 utc | 32

From a 2014 article (speech transcript?) by Chris Giannou, “Understanding the Middle East”. After a lengthy history lesson concentrating on post-WWI political and religious overlapping changes, he closes with this:

So what happens in the next 20 years: Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, the succession in Saudi Arabia? After Saud we’ve had several brothers and half-brothers. The half-brothers are running out. They’re all in their seventies and eighties, and you have 5,000 princes of the next generation. Who is going to be king amongst the 5,000? So even there there is a question of legitimacy: the legitimacy of the state and the legitimacy of the succession, because it’s not been from father to son, it’s been from brother to brother. Once you start going to the next generation, you’re going to see a lot of vested interests involved - oil companies, the Pentagon, etc. - to help determine who remains in power. And those vested interests, as I say, go from Mercedes-Benz to Coca-Cola to oil.And they will try to influence the evolution.
The people will have their own ideas of what they want for their future. For the time being, it’s still political Islam, which obviously does not have the solution to their economic problems and developmental problems. Therefore, will they swing back to some form of a secular ideology? We’re going to simply have to sit back and let history play itself out.

Not advocating for the last bit. Sounds too much like Rove’s “analysing the empire after it has already created the new reality.” Just that the custom of of having dozens of wives and more dozens of sons combined with all those ‘vested interests’ makes this an interesting time, in the Chinese sense. Can you hear the sound of all those swords (bone saws?) being sharpened?

Posted by: NotBob | Oct 17 2018 20:49 utc | 33

We still have yet to see a shred of evidence Khashoggi is dead beyond Turkish sources say so. The same sources said they had his apple watch recordings (squashed) and others say they had their own video (nothing more said on video).

If there was audio surely it was shared with US and Saudi Arabia long ago. Why the delay in at least a partial release or transcript? Production problems?

Sorry to be a skeptic.

As for the video showing 15 Saudis coming into Turkey and their connections to MBS. Security staff can have divided loyalties as we all know, serving one faction but secretly loyal to another. Or perhaps their mission was a simple rendition?

Now maybe the story as given to us by the fake and corrupt MSM (imagine that they get it right for once), and the Senate acted honorably, quickly and in a bipartisan fashion calling for sanctions while still ignoring Yemen. Maybe.

But if this same story unfolded with different actors, replace MBS with Putin and Saudi Arabia with Russia, there is no doubt in my mind that there would be much more skepticism here

I personally hope this is true and MBS and Saudi Arabia get slammed, but this whole thing smells of an operation involving the Empires Deep State. Everyone singing the same tune from the get go, rapidly produced pictures of those who are alleged to have done the dirty deed, a narrative as to who was behind it with secret evidence we never see or hear proving it (replace OBL with MBS), perhaps we will later get a faked confession tape too.

It even crosses my mind that Russia Gate has run out of gas with Muellers investigation winding down and a Saudi Gate may be manufactured to replace it. Next we will hear Trumps collusion with Saudi Arabia prevents him from taking action and another DNC loss in November will be blamed on MBS using their lobby and money to influence the election for Trump.

Then maybe we find out MBS is a closet Shia and actually working for Iran. Oh Hollywood, don’t fail me here. Make this reality show real entertaining

Posted by: Pft | Oct 17 2018 20:53 utc | 34

Any real over push against MBS is going to spill over into true stories about Yemen. I don't think anyone wants that least of all the press who would have to explain why it has been the world's biggest dirty secret for so long. It ain't going to happen.
MofA was right the first time - a short term shakedown of MBS, a long term nothing burger.

And if you think $17m PR spend buys anything in Washington for UAE, you are wrong by a factor of 10 I guess. They (and Saudi) are spending much much much more than that.

Posted by: Michael Droy | Oct 17 2018 20:54 utc | 35

Makes total sense in the context of Erdogan caught between a rock and a hard place, ie, the Empire and Russia. What a bunch od amoral opportunists! One minute condemning Israel and the next sucking up to that nasty little settler state!

As Len Deighton said in 'Funeral in Berlin', if you sit on the fence, they'll run the barbedwire right through you'. I wish.

Posted by: William Bowles | Oct 17 2018 21:00 utc | 36

On one hand The outrage and the quick call to action and media attention storm given to this story
On the other, the biggest humanitarian crisis of our time. The fact that fukus has a torture compound where they killed thousands of yemeni, air sea water blockade, the deliberate spreading of diseases, the deliberate targeting of hospitals, maternity wards, schools wedding, roads and markets
And the utter silence.
when they can end the suffering of millions in 2 days (i honestly don't think this is an exageration)
This story has proven that the media can hurt the seemingly untouchable sa. This will be recorded in the annals of history as msm and by extension the western world having no excuse to denounce and stop the barbaric state and not only that but they did stand up to it by giving it a pat on the hand for killing a wahabbi asset

Posted by: Occidentosis | Oct 17 2018 21:20 utc | 37

I was thinking about whether MbS has to go, from a Saudi point of view. Istanbul is a folly too far, it is true. But I don't know that Saudis would be bothered about the particularly gruesome nature of the murder. The murder is a negative, particularly its effects on Western thought. But the issue, among the princes, is probably more on incompetence. Is MbS good for leading Saudi (i.e. the princes) to good in the future? Or is it that more wrecks are in view? I suspect they are beginning to doubt.

By the way, MbS is not a dictator, though he would like to be that. He is dependent on the consensus of the princes.

Posted by: Laguerre | Oct 17 2018 21:26 utc | 38

Thanks for the refresher B., and also for review, consideration,

Posted by: Taffyboy | Oct 17 2018 21:33 utc | 39

All this is missing (deliberately?) the key point.
Which is that Kashoggi knew a lot too much about 9/11 and the roles played by ALL the perpetrators.
He knew Ben Laden personally, he knew the Saudi Royals and their role and he worked for the CIA. He could have known how 9/11 was really carried out.

I presume that MbS might also know the same things and is relying on that to keep him safe. It would explain why nearly ALL the Washington Admin, and the MSM are suddenly shouting about "bad" Saudi Arabia. Basically they want someone to do in MbS before he can really tell the world what happened to the Three towers, and they need to be able to blame ALL that happened on SA. (ie disinformation designed to cover the roles of Israel, the Pentagon-Cheney/Rumsfeld, all the civilians involved in the "cover-up", and anyone else involved) The SA's might have been willing to act as the "perpetrators" as long as there was no other action taken and "protection" given by Congress etc. Now that the Congress and MSM are howling for his blood one must ask why now? Or are they simply scared?

Posted by: stonebird | Oct 17 2018 21:35 utc | 40

A few weeks ago Assad said he’d reached an ‘understanding ‘ with other Arab states he seemed— content— the planned battle for Idlib fizzeled out ! (Odd that) Russia backed off ! Who were those other Arab states Turkey ? Saudi? Iran we can only guess ! We could all think of many others !
Optamistic i know!! But could it be that the penny has finally finally dropped as to what a bunch of arseholes the yanks really are, and have been ! Surely it’s not beyond the wit of Arab man and women to see the devide and rule game being played by :- US, UK, Israel, have they woke up smelled the coffee !!
Turkey kicks out that rotten priest , saudi ‘does Kashooggi big time’ Kashoggi being a US ,Trump boot licker. And they all stick one finger up in the air to US trump. Who could blame them! Optamistic I know but we’re all desperately clutching at straws ! The ideal has got leg’s ! Unlike Kashoogi I guess !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 17 2018 21:40 utc | 41

My sense is on the US govt side this is all about the money.
Whose money?
1.Aramco IPO. It can't happen because SA has refused to make public the status of its wells, meaning many unhappy brokers.
2. Pentagon. Lack of signature on the 100 million arms deal impacts Congressional districts as well as related govt/military.
3. Oil Prices/Futures.The absolute failure of the Yemen War affects not only the Aramco IPO which desperately needs the Yemen oil fields in the SA portfolio; the world needs Yemen oil/gas in production to stay at sane levels.
4.Lobbyist fees. The shakedown of the Princes has probably considerably reduced the $ various Princes paid various Congress persons.
Most importantly;
5.Petro dollar. As mentioned above, if SA present leadership fall out among themselves, the Petro dollar is at real risk. Which would herald in the End of the World as we know it and that means world war.

Trump must tread softly, the last things he wants are the Petro dollar to end on his watch; the other last thing he wants is to oversee WW3. All 20 minutes of it.

Posted by: frances | Oct 17 2018 21:59 utc | 42

stonebird 39

Don't forget JASTA. from wikipedia - "The bill passed the Senate with no opposition in May 2016 and, in September 2016, was unanimously passed by the House of Representatives. On September 28, 2016, both houses of Congress passed the bill into law after overriding a veto from President Obama which had occurred five days earlier. This was the first and only presidential veto override of Obama's administration.[1]"

Only a few at the very top at the time would have been involved in 9 11. Most so called elected representatives in the US would, I think, like a bit of Saudi blood for that.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 17 2018 22:02 utc | 43

@Pft (33)

"But if this same story unfolded with different actors, replace MBS with Putin and Saudi Arabia with Russia, there is no doubt in my mind that there would be much more skepticism here"

And even more skepticism there would be when you replaced MbS with Obama who would, say, target an American abroad for drone assassination.

Posted by: bjd | Oct 17 2018 22:05 utc | 44

re 40

A few weeks ago Assad said he’d reached an ‘understanding ‘ with other Arab states he seemed— content— the planned battle for Idlib fizzeled out ! (Odd that) Russia backed off !
That's a misreading. The battle is merely postponed. Putin doesn't want to go in bang-bang with heavy losses. Better to make a deal whereby the jihadis withdraw their weapons. Even if they don't actually do what they agreed.

Posted by: Laguerre | Oct 17 2018 22:14 utc | 45

Well, Here's a very long Twitter thread with an interview Khashoggi did with Egyptian TV at some point in past. But it's the mass of uninformed comments that follow that are incredulous, from what seems to mostly be American twitterheads. Some call the video a smoking gun when it's not, and so forth. It's quite funny in places if you slog through to the end. But it's also quite sad as it reflects the great lack of critical thinking.

High Russian officials met with Saudi on Sunday & Monday about Syria and other topics but said there was no mention of Khashoggi affair. As far as I can determine via searches and my regular news perusals, Putin has yet to comment on the affair, although I'd bet it was at least touched on during his discussions with Egyptian President Sisi today at Sochi. Apparently, there was no Q&A with press after the two presidents read their statements. I do expect Putin to get a question during the Valdai Club's Plenary Session tomorrow, which he's regularly attended and it located in Sochi. Nor have I read any comment from China. Lavrov will also be at Valdai Club for an hour session prior to the Plenary.

I'd be remiss not to link to Vanessa Beeley's new essay further exposing White Helmets as the terrorists they are, for which she's experiencing aggressive push-back.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 17 2018 22:23 utc | 46

The message from Trump and Kushner reveals their modus operandi in the White House: sacrifice anyone to maintain your innocence. While MbS stands silent as the storm rages and (possibly) fades. Who is going to prosecute him?

I interpret that to mean that the Trump thugs have no loyalty, at least far less loyalty than the Arab thug. Now that says a lot to me. Note that americans.

MbS is in no strong position to 'blame' one of his own servants here. He has decimated the princedom in ksa and has an abundance of enemies. Like Trump he is likely to go off script but not off guard by shafting his executioners who appear to be his top security detail. MbS may be clumsy and impulsive but I doubt he is a complete fool. His early demise will prove me wrong and please me immensely.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 17 2018 22:23 utc | 47

After shaking hands with Zuckerberg you need to count your fingers.
After shaking hands with MbS you need to count your limbs.

What they were talking about now becomes clear:
Word has it MbS wants to start a Facebook equivalent in S.A. called HeadBook.

Posted by: bjd | Oct 17 2018 22:29 utc | 48

Laguerre @ 37:

'... By the way, MbS is not a dictator, though he would like to be that. He is dependent on the consensus of the princes.'

If the Crown Prince is not a dictator, how do you explain how he was able to round up and imprison over 200 people, some if not many of them snatched away from Europe, and including one of the world's richest men (Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal), in the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Riyadh and order a freeze on over 1,200 bank accounts belonging to Saudi individuals and Saudi-owned or registered businesses?

Some of the detainees were beaten and tortured by mercenaries employed by Akademi (the successor firm to Blackwater) brought over from the US. Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal was apparently hung by his ankles as an example to his fellow prisoners, as to what would happen to them if they did not cough up their money. One Saudi military officer who had been caught up in the purge is said to have died when his neck was broken during torture.

For what my opinion is worth, my impression is that the Crown Prince is behaving in a way resembling that of a psychopath. All his relatives, even his senior relatives, must be frightened of him. There is probably little they can do because the way the Saud royal family has governed Saudi Arabia over past decades has left little in the way of proper political and legal institutions and systems they can use. They have basically ruled the country as a set of interconnected personal fiefdoms with hierarchies based on who to smooch up to, who to dump, gossip, handing out favours, living for the moment and getting as much out of it as possible ... because you never know if tomorrow your head will be literally on the chopping block.

Plus the Crown Prince is sure to have a network of people around him who are absolutely loyal to him - because their lives depend on this loyalty - who spy on his relatives and report on their behaviour and activities. The 15-man hit squad who butchered Jamal Khashoggi in the most heinous way - and I have no sympathy for JK for supporting ISIS in Syria - would certainly be part of MbS's network.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 17 2018 22:30 utc | 49

'Some have wondered if Turkey is floating the murder story in order to attack its Saudi rival, or to pressure Riyadh to admit it detained Khashoggi, or, as the Guardian’s Martin Chulov speculated on Sunday, to give the economically struggling Turks some leverage to get something out of the Saudis. Another theory is that the Saudis are feeding misinformation to Turkish authorities in order to ultimately embarrass Erdogan. Elsewhere, Saudi partisans on social media have advanced a hashtag blaming Qatari intelligence agents for Khashoggi’s alleged murder — a campaign likely conducted by Saudi-backed internet trolls. As the Huffington Post reported Monday, additional social media campaigns, undoubtedly orchestrated by the Saudis and their Gulf allies, soon followed.

Posted by: brian | Oct 17 2018 22:33 utc | 50

@ Laguerre | Oct 17, 2018 5:26:46 PM | 37

By the way, MbS is not a dictator, though he would like to be that. He is dependent on the consensus of the princes.

Thank you Laguerre but that is a contestable proposition. Only a few months ago all the princes were incarcerated in ksa, threatened, beaten, some killed but all robbed of their ill gotten gains by MbS. No doubt they are all aware of the fate of their kin should they stray one millimeter out of line. You seem to like to propagate the idea that MbS is still moderated in the ksa by the college of princes who consider/ approve/ make all decisions.

MbS killing Khashoggi is one of his blunt messages to them and the world: MbS is in charge, MbS makes decisions, MbS has control over the other princes wealth and lives. And do not forget it.

This guy is a despot and he murdered a critic (closely allied with the other princes and contenders to his throne) in the country of another despot who vies for supremacy over the Islam Holy Sites. The despot in the usa is making an idiot of himself trying to cover for him. The despot in Israel is calm and silent and waiting.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 17 2018 22:36 utc | 51

theres still no sign of a body...Skripal 2 (Whacking Khashoggi) is causing a lot of excitement among the bored dilettantes now Skripal 1 has flagged

Posted by: brian | Oct 17 2018 22:37 utc | 52

'We can lay the conspiracy theory that Erdogan faked the incident to rest. He was simply lucky that MbS was stupid enough to let his hapless bodyguards kill Khashoggi in Turkey, '

so we have evidence a murder took place? so far its accusations and speculation

Posted by: brian | Oct 17 2018 22:38 utc | 53

oops apologies all for the italic blunder. Should be closed after the opening par.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 17 2018 22:39 utc | 54

Can MbS be prosecuted, and if so on what charges? It seems to me he has an airtight defense; Khashoggi was an expelled traitor to the Kingdom and was subsequently discovered to be a threat to the Throne even outside Kingdom, so he was sentenced to death by Royal Decree. Khashoggi was lured to enter Saudi territory so that judgement could be rendered. That Saudi hasn't released any info about such a Decree doesn't mean it never occurred, and what of its legality in Saudi if it was to be made postscript? Who in Saudi challenges a Royal Decree of that sort? Sure, that's sordid and all for the Freedom & Democracy promoters, but it's probably all legal and legit within Saudi.

If Obama can get away with deliberately targeting innocent US Citizens & murdering them as he did often, then what of MbS eliminating a declared Enemy of the Kingdom?

IMO, as much as many of us loath MbS and Trump, and the utterly disgusting situation, I think what I outlined will be used as the fire escape and business as usual will resume.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 17 2018 22:42 utc | 55

Further to my comment @ 40
And if you were to include Afghanistan into my senaro ! We have just swung the world geo-political balence neatly making US ‘Billy no mates! ‘ Only right and proper I say!!
You would create a ‘global block’. Trade,defence ect ect Russia,China, Pakistan,India, throughout Middle East down to Africa!!
Kick the yanks out of there bases turn the oil supply off bringing about a massive financial collapse,mass unrest on the streets and hopefully famine / pestulence! Up against that power block and adding up the combined nuclear capability US would be toast !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 17 2018 22:47 utc | 56

Laguerre @ 43
In this day and age I don’t admire your nievity ! Politics is like cards or chess you don’t want to show your opponent your hand (no pun intend ‘kashoggi’) you say one thing, do another ! So no your wrong ! Polatic real !

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 17 2018 23:01 utc | 57

@ karlof1 54

Thanks karlof1, I fully agree. If nErdogan thinks he can generate shock horror and friendship with usa over this he is sadly mistaken. Trump/Kushner has already lost cred trying generate cover for MbS.

It would be interesting to see if there is blowback against nErdogan in the next week or so. I do not believe the Saudis will be blackmailed here. The history of Khashoggi is not solid enough to lament or draw too much compassion. After all he was the mouthpiece, apologist for the head choppers and misogynists and wahabbis in ksa.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 17 2018 23:05 utc | 58

brian @51

Amazing how all the CCTV and other evidence came to hand so quickly, almost as if someone knew something was going down. And no conveniently faulty CCTV cameras either.

BTW there has been a Bowling for Columbine at a college in Kerch. Almost perfect copycat, down to the perpetrator commiting suicide in the college library.

Posted by: Yonatan | Oct 17 2018 23:13 utc | 59

Oops typo @44 not @ 43

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 17 2018 23:13 utc | 60

This is all about stopping Saudi rapprochement with Russia (potential orders for nuclear power plants, S-400s instead of THAAD, calming of the Sunni-Shia issue). For the US to survive, Saudia needs to be locked on the US MIC teat and remain the key component of the US petrodollar scam.

Posted by: Yonatan | Oct 17 2018 23:29 utc | 61

It is not a bit clear to me that Trump has to change his foreign policy.

We know nothing about the situation until we know what information (whether true or feigned to end torture is immaterial here) is given up by Kashoggi on the tape.

I have no idea how the Turks know when someone died from an audio tape, unless the narrator was helpful enough to announce it.

It is not clear the second plane needs to be explained. On the other hand, the need for an explanation of why it would take fifteen men to murder someone is clear to me. Come to think of it, a timeline of how Riyadh knew to send a team would be helpful? Kashoggi makes appointment, Riyadh makes decision, team is assembled and sent, arrives at embassy in time to do the deed, then leaves.

It really seems unlikely even the Turks would have the gall to make this up, but they are paranoid, and champion liars in a crowded field.

Trip to Cairo does faintly suggest rendition of Muslim Brotherhood operative to Egypt.

Posted by: steven t johnson | Oct 17 2018 23:30 utc | 62


Good points, but maybe change is wanted

One of my comments yesterday got deleted that touched on this but will try an abbreviated version

With Venezuela on the brink of collapse, sanctions set to kick in on Iran oil next month, oil prices inching up, saudi-kuwait dispute over oil fields reminding one of Iraq-Kuwait in 1991, record level deficits in the US, tarrifs impacting prices, housing bubble showing signs of collapse, Fed trying to tank the economy with interest rate increases, the time does not seem ripe to start an economic war with Saudi Arabia unless an economic collapse is what is wanted.

Trumps rhetoric against the Fed at this time makes me wonder. Have the global elite decided on a change to the current economic system? Perhaps an end to the Petro dollar. If so, what changes might it be ?

IPCC has come out with another global warming “warning”. Seems like a 240 dollar a gallon tax (2.4 trillion a year)is needed to fight climate change or we all die soon. Nobody will be able to affford oil/gas, industrial civilization comes to an end, living standards plummet. Might this be the game plan? Any relation with the Khasoggi event, which is looking like a triggering event of some sort?

Perhaps a war with Saudi Arabia over Kuwait (some of the royals suggesting the use of force) is needed, then occupy Saudi Arabia after wiping out the House of Saud and seizing all their assets outside SA, and restricting supply of oil to the rest of the world to save the planet and support the new reserve currency (carbon dollar) with the US empowered to collect the carbon tax from those who purchase oil under their control

Pretty wild if thats to happen.

Posted by: Pft | Oct 17 2018 23:42 utc | 63

This blue has just about hit the point of no return which will be if Erdy releases the tape out to the media. The fact it has already been played to a number of westerners indicates Erdogan is totally frustrated with Saudi stalling, but that there hasn't been a copy given to Wapo NYT or the graun indicates Erdogan is still angling for a deal and is hoping he can pressure amerika into forcing saudi to agree.
Thing is the Saudis aren't the usual pushovers the empire can lean on with no concern for consequences.
It couldn't happen to a nastier bunch of bastids.
I'm surprised the tape has been circulated as far as it has been but if there were any doubt that mbs has a mob of kangaroos loose in his top paddock, Erdogan feeling forced to play the tape proves mbs has no contact with reality.
Who knows with such a stubbornly intransigent mob of murderers on all sides of this falling out, the possibility of anyone, big time elite players, Trump, mbs or Erdogan being able to take any sort of control of the situation is becoming less likely each day.
In an ideal world it would all happen, mbs arrested by his cousins, Trump melting down in frustration at the unwhites refusal to do as they are instructed, Erdogan being assassinated by an mbs operative, Netanyahoo caught trying to unload the millions mbs paid him, and much, much more. It could happen but I'm not holding my breath.
One thing does seem likely though, that is with mbs gone and the successor likely to be a friend of the cia, the slaughter in Yemen will have to be cut back, maybe even ended, since by the time this has finished too many credulous amerikans will have seen how the empire's sausages are made & won't be able to feign ignorance any more, so the empire will have to play nice for as long as it takes to lull the morons back to sleep.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 17 2018 23:45 utc | 64

as far as "miss scarlett" graham, he is a notorious fellatrix of the israelis but one of his top donors is lockheed-martin. many theories have been floating around that trump will pressure the saudis to shove more lockheed sales down their throats as opposed to russia getting that sweet blood money. just a thought.

also funny to see such "deep state" faves as brennan and woodward acting indignant along with the usual CIA stenographers in the press and congress. they obviously aren't acting on any moral imperative because they're amoral by nature. so what is the shared agenda?

Posted by: the pair | Oct 18 2018 0:04 utc | 65

"If Obama can get away with deliberately targeting innocent US Citizens & murdering them as he did often, then what of MbS eliminating a declared Enemy of the Kingdom?"

Excellent! Time for Theresa, Mutti, Micron and other castrated vassals of the empire to get antsy.

Meanwhile, is not it grand that the UK/US demented confabulation on Skripals' "poisoning" has been disappearing from the presstituting MSM.

Posted by: Anya | Oct 18 2018 0:05 utc | 66

Agatha Christie's
Murder in the Embassy d'Orient Express

It was a dark and rainy afternoon...Jamal, sitting in his favorite Konstantinopolitan coffee shop was seeping his Earl Gray tea watching the clouds gathering from affar in Bosporus, watching the impressive Hagia Sophia ancient church monuments in the background. The smells of Musaka and kiofte with red hot tomato sauce from a small tavern down the road were tinkling his nose. As he reaches his phone to call his soon to be Turkish wife, someone aproaches khassogi and makes him a deal he can't refuse.

They make clear to him that it would involve him dissapearing for ever but with a huge amount of cash to enjoy with his new wife, thus shutting up his mouth about possible details about the 9-11 forever.
(Plausible, Khassogi was no saint, he was photographed being armed with an rpg rolling down a hill along with Bin Laden. In Afghanistan?. He used in the past to write supportive stuff for ISIS or "moderate" head choppers)
They explain the plan to him and it seems it involves a scheme to feed false information to the close environment of Erdogan in order to damage his credibility and also bring Mohammad Bin Salman in a difficult possition.
Khassogi is thrilled and he accepts gladilly.
(Plausible, D.Trump needs the new deal with the weapons to be signed which MbS agreed to but now it seems he stalled, D.Trump's/J.Kushner's environment along with Israel also could be needing to get a better control on Aramco's future plans which MbS might be postponing for the time, because these actors have planed new and suprising moves in the global scene)
This entity would also exploit this scheme to the max by discrediting every loud critic against D.Trump/J.Kushner (and Israel over it's alleged cooperation with MbS/Saudi Arabia), and that all soap opera would happen during the final weeks closing November's elections in the US.
(Plausible, timing is suspicius, also D.Trump should know better since he is no idiot)
The plan would involve designing the scheme in a way that false possitives about the truth of the story would regularly surface in the media being fed from the scheming Entity to Erdogan's environment who in their turn would leak out to the regime press (though that would also involve trusted persons in his environment having been sold out to the dark side in order to see him go)
(Plausible, still no body, no video, and a few audio tracks here and there make absolutely no credible truth for anything since fals audio is very easy to be manufactured, plus how can Erdogan explain in detail how he bugged Saudi embassy, since that would also be illegal?)

After the deal is made, Khasoggi played his part and they find a way to whisk him out from somewhere erdogan's people wouldn't be able to surveil.
The "evidence" is planted and the soap opera is rolling....

Posted by: Greece | Oct 18 2018 0:15 utc | 67

given how much of the audio tapes descriptions have been leaked already I think the actual recordings (at least audio and perhaps even the video) will be leaked shortly. I would theorize that if the negotiations between the Saudis and Turkey don't make progress quickly enough Erdogan will leak the full Audio and then threaten to release the video. However, the real unknown is Trump and the US, Trump & the Republicans need Saudi Arabia to keep oil prices low to prime the US economy, especially if the rumors of a planned strike against Iran in 2019/2020 are true. I don't see how the US could launch anything against Iran (beyond funding Terrorist attacks) without completely tanking the US/world economy unless they have 100% support of Saudi Arabia (even with their support, I still think an attack against Iran would be a disastrous failure). Even getting rid of MbS would still leave Saudi Arabia with strained relations with the US for years to come (possibly derailing the plans against Iran entirely)

Posted by: Kadath | Oct 18 2018 0:18 utc | 68

There were other people at the Embassy during the time going about their bussines, it was working hours. It was also mentioned everybody were hearing screams. Where is their audio/video of what happened? Nobody mentioned that people were being frisked on their way out from the Embassy for their cellphones, and also the alleged team left in a hurry from an exite other than the main entrance where obivously people ussualy com and go. Where is their stuff? Why nothing on the internets about that? Turkey is not on an tottal internet lockdown, yet at least.

Posted by: Greece | Oct 18 2018 0:30 utc | 69

@ Pft who is thinking big enough for the situation....nice

Yes, a major global geo-political shift is taking place and it is like folks say about you not wanting to see how sausage is made.

Pft alluded to blatant exertion and assertion of force which much of the world only sees on TV or in the movies. Since so much effort has been made to normalize such behavior, is there any surprise that might-makes-right continues to be projected by the West?

We are about to see how far the might-makes-right folks are willing to push their inhumane social structure. At the end of WWII there was a semblance of claim to moral high ground and global structures to support furtherance of visions of global peace.....which has all seemed to evolve to myth/facade

How did war become substituted for human growth? When will the West realize its inherent social/economic structure is the problem?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Oct 18 2018 0:45 utc | 70

Greece @ 66:

Ever considered taking up writing spy thriller novels for a living? I think you'd be much better than Ted Bell and my local library stocks his laughable trash tomes.

But would our man Jamal not also be smoking a hookah pipe while sipping apple tea through a cube of sugar between his teeth and snacking on some nice baklava?

Posted by: Jen | Oct 18 2018 0:55 utc | 71

mark2 ^^^ A few weeks ago Assad said he’d reached an ‘understanding ‘ with other Arab states... Who were those other Arab states Turkey ? Saudi? Iran we can only guess ! We could all think of many others !

Turks? Iranians? Arabs? Wow. USA education system? Pretty basic schoolboys howlers there. Looks as if we could not "all think of many others".

Posted by: Plod | Oct 18 2018 1:03 utc | 72

I don't know why we are believing the Turk's story, just because it has been spread worldwide by the Mighty Wurlitzer of the corporate media.
If there were 15 Saudis meeting with Khashoggi at the Embassy, why do we assume that they were a hit team? Sounds like a many Saudis does it take to murder one journalist? Maybe it was a negotiation.
The Saudis say that he left the Embassy. The Turks, a week later, say that he didn't, and come up with a serial narrative, doled out daily, which the imperial media spreads, unchallenged, 24/7.
Erdogan doesn't control the world's media.
I remain skeptical.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Oct 18 2018 1:15 utc | 73

I agree that the target may be Trump.

This reminds me of Stephen Vincent Benet's short story, "The Devil and Daniel Webster."

The devil (anti-Trump deep state) ostensibly wants to take the soul of Jabez Stone (Mohammad bin Salman) but in reality the devil has his sights on a bigger quarry, Daniel Webster (Trump.)

Axios has just reported a letter signed by 11 senators demanding that Trump disclose his family's financial links to Saudi Arabia.

“It is imperative that this sanctions determination, and U.S. policy towards Saudi Arabia generally, are not influenced by any conflicts of interest that may exist because of your or your family’s deep financial ties to Saudi Arabia.”

My feeling is that if sanctions against Saudi Arabia are approved by Congress, Trump will NOT veto. He has tended to follow the laws made by Congress more than his predecessor did.

On the other hand, how can Congress approve significant financial sanctions against Saudi Arabia? There is too much power and money involved. You think the NRA has power to influence Congress? I expect that congressmen and congresswomen are getting phone calls even as we speak.

Posted by: TheBAG | Oct 18 2018 1:55 utc | 74

Posted by: Yonatan | Oct 17, 2018 7:13:05 PM | 58

kerch..a counter terr expert weighs in:
''The mass execution of students in a college in Kerch was hardly organized by a student, Vladislav Roslyakov, alone. This opinion was aired on the “60 minutes” program by Joseph Linder, an expert of the International Counter-Terrorism Training Association.

“We cannot exclude the situation of group participation of a number of unidentified persons in this process ... With a ratio of incomes and expenses in a family, 150 rounds of ammunition, each pack is several thousand rubles. In total, it exceeds the monthly salary and its scholarship by several folds, ”he said.

“Who prepared, who set up, who gave the assembly technology, where it was done, who helped with the composite elements of improvised explosive devices? Who defined the tactics of this person? Who controlled the psycho-emotional status? There is a management system where young people are very well managed ...

We cannot disregard what was originally defined as a terrorist act.

For a certain time it is written out from all accounts, erases them. There are certain characterological features that typically fit very well into certain patterns of the work of special services, ”the expert emphasized, the PolitNavigator correspondent reports.

Linder explained that a newcomer could hardly kill and injure so many people.

“Well prepared, I emphasize, not only tactically, but psychologically does not feel what ordinary people feel. A child, teenager, young man, well prepared, he lives in this action. He does not understand that he kills loved ones, brings grief to someone, deprives people of their lives ...

He is not a special forces officer who has been trained. So, he had to work it out in advance under the guidance of someone, under someone else’s management, he had to be prepared for this. Any teenager who takes a weapon for the first time will not carry out a complex of these actions. I have been preparing people in different countries for several decades, ”the expert noted.''

Posted by: brian | Oct 18 2018 2:18 utc | 75

A nice comparative - "thought experiment" - is to imagine the Western government's and media's reaction if this same set of circumstances involved a Russian reporter. For example, the U.K.'s Skripnal farce is an absolute slapstick game of baseless innuendo compared to this rather clear example of the Saudi's blatantly assassinating a citizen in front of the entire world. No doubt Teresa May and Donald are planning call for sanctions and will begin to expel Saudi diplomats at any moment - Not. Western hypocrisy is so transparent one wonders if anyone in the public believes a word of it anymore. Perhaps the propagandists will be left simply propagandizing each other in the end.

Posted by: Gary Weglarz | Oct 18 2018 2:22 utc | 76

Another source claims that the Spear Operations Group’s private assassination team was tasked with killing Muslim Brotherhood targets in Yemen:

“Their target that night: Anssaf Ali Mayo, the local leader of the Islamist political party Al-Islah. The UAE considers Al-Islah to be the Yemeni branch of the worldwide Muslim Brotherhood, which the UAE calls a terrorist organization. Many experts insist that Al-Islah, one of whose members won the Nobel Peace Prize, is no terror group. They say it's a legitimate political party that threatens the UAE not through violence but by speaking out against its ambitions in Yemen.”

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 18 2018 2:26 utc | 77


Mossad failed in their attempt today to take out Melania in the manufactured phantasy of Khashoggi and the S400s that will defeat the Isreali 7 dates in 5 years Yinon Pls. Melania heard too much, she's a loose thread and a reminder to Donald not to stray off the reservation with the whole 9/11, The Miracle of the Two Planes and Three Towers, Islamic Jihad, US Treasuries, S400s, Syria, Golan Heights, Yemen Opration רשרוש בקר.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 18 2018 3:16 utc | 78

The Saudi buy-off of the US appears to have begun with a $100 million payment the day the US Secretary of State visited:

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 18 2018 3:19 utc | 79

The stories that continue to appear in the WaPo, NYT, CNN etc (mostly fueled by Erdogan at this point) makes it clearer than ever that MbS cannot survive. The longer he stays in power the greater the damage to SA. The longer he stays in power the more vivid the horrible stories the Turks will release. I have no idea who is pushing for his ouster at this point but it is surely more than just Ergogan.

Whoever is ultimately behind this campaign (which I suspect is a loose association of interest groups spread throughout SA, Turkey, London citi, wall street, whoever) they will not stop until MbS is paraded through the streets in chains or at least his head at the end of a lance. At this point the only question how many days will it take to see his head on a pike?

Posted by: ToivoS | Oct 18 2018 3:24 utc | 80

"The most interesting aspect of the botched assassination of Jamal Khashoggi is the insight it creates into political conflicts in U.S. domestic and international policies." A more interesting aspect is how surveillance technology developed and distributed world-wide and now used by governments, media, and corporations to collect private information for control or advertising income, is now spectacularly backfiring on these institutions. The fallout of this imperial assassination is wrecking the collusion of government, media, and corporations, as all are being forced to shun big bucks in SA in mock horror and shock at indefensibly immoral actions which are in fact no different than those they routinely ignore or overlook in the form of civilian killings in Gaza by Israelis and in Yemen with US and UK weapons. This is a massive example of global imperial over-reach, and how hubris causes power to deconstruct itself. We are about to see another example of that principle in a long overdue massive, world-wide economic collapse. Notice that the greatest silence on this story comes from Israel. Without a doubt, the implosion of SA feigned credibility among Western elites is a huge catastrophe for its plans for Iran and the greater Middle East.

Posted by: JNDillard | Oct 18 2018 3:59 utc | 81

Why don't we just bring democracy to the Saudis and let the people vote for a new guy? That's what we do isn't it?

Posted by: jezabeel | Oct 18 2018 3:59 utc | 82

Why did the media held back on this so for so long?

Yemen (and Gaza).

CGTN & Al-Jazeera are the only global news outlets consistently and regularly reporting on the US facilitated genocides in Yemen and Jewish-occupied Palestine/Gaza.

The never-ending Khashoggi non-mystery mystery keeps Yemen & Gaza out of the Jew-controlled Western Media headlines. Saudi Barbaria and "Israel" are natural allies because each of them is an artificial Western political construct with a cowardly and incompetent military apparatus and an anti-heroic penchant for slaughtering undefended civilians - for psychopathic reasons.
Talking about psychopathy...
Oz's Christian Zionist PM, Sco Mo, is blathering about following Trump's lead and moving Oz's Embassy in "Israel" to Jerusalem. Sc Mo, who has never had an original idea in his life, still hasn't woken up to the fact that Trump's Jerusalem gambit was a trap for Bibi. So it's hilarious that Sco Mo The Unoriginal, is planning to take a flying leap into the same trap!
Anyone with more than half a brain would realise that...
1. No civilised country has followed Trump's lead.
2. Trump can, and will, reverse his (illegal) Jerusalem decision out of a 'new-found respect' for International Law.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 18 2018 4:14 utc | 83


I don't know about all that, but I just finished my first QWOP on!!

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 18 2018 4:23 utc | 84

TheBag @72

The President has authority under the Global Magnitsky Act to impose sanctions against anyone who has committed a human rights violation. Congress has already requested a HR investigation which Trump must act on and report to them within 4 months

It appears my prediction of Saudi gate may be right. This potentially is good news for Iran and Russia. Perhaps not so good for Trump and Saidis. Israel may not be happy. Perhaps his wife's plane troubles were a warning shot to remind him who is boss. Who knows ?

Haleys resignation beginning to make sense now. The House of Trump and House of Saud may soon fall, and Bibi wont be happy losing Trump and MBS. We all know what they are capable of to get things back on track

Posted by: Pft | Oct 18 2018 4:29 utc | 85

Hoarse Whisperer @ 81:

ScoMo is making noises about recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital because the Federal electorate of Wentworth in eastern Sydney, where there is a sizeable Jewish community centred around Bondi and Bondi Junction, is having a by-election this coming Saturday after the electorate's previous incumbent Malcolm Turnbull (ex-PM) left for the US.

Never mind that the Jewish population in Wentworth may not necessarily be monolithic in their support for moving the Australian embassy and quite a few must recognise the desperation in ScoMo's move in trying to cling to power.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 18 2018 4:46 utc | 86

@karlof1: you are correct. The Islamic world runs in a parallel universe and different set of ``moral values". From the Maghreb to South Asia and the Nusantara, many Muslims - mostly poor but even the educated class - live on unquestioning faith, and can be agitated at perceived infractions.
Take the Christian governor of Jakarta, found guilty and jailed on a dubious allegation of insulting Islam during his mayoral run that drew thousands of Muslims out in protest.
In the Khashoggi case, he challenged the keepers of the faith - mad as the anointed one may be - and hence, can be regarded as questioning its validity.
People in less privileged positions than Khashoggi have been offed; there is the case of the 20something boy who fled after a careless tweet but was sent back on a flight stopover.
The `so-called' Saudi investigation will drag, long past the unilateral Iran sanctions on Nov 4 and the American mid-term elections.
The tide will turn eventually against the Turks. The Saudi premises were bugged, because there are allegedly now SEVERAL tapes.
The Turks will be portrayed as colluding with opportunistic and hypocritical`kaffir' to betray faith and Muslim brotherhood for their own advantage. When blind faith and politics get in bed, pigs will fly!!!

Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 18 2018 4:54 utc | 87

And the question of the week . . . .

Is Mohammad bin Salman a lunatic or merely a poltroon ?

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 18 2018 5:03 utc | 88

Hoarsewhisperer 81

You're like a roo sitting in the middle of road dazzled by Trump's headlights. I suspect you will become roadkill.
Sco Mo is part of the Abbott Murdoch Zionist team. Being part of five-eyes, I think the US will keep this team in power for some time.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 18 2018 5:05 utc | 89

I'm not with Erdogan, I'm definitely not with Trump, and I give a rats ass about who wants what prince. The only thing I care about at this moment is that the KSA becomes the pariah kingdom in the eyes of the American people and that relief comes to Yemen, and that this international crime f.cks with Trump's plan to bankrupt Iran and swindle the Palestinians.

Yes, Erdogan is in the cat bird's seat, but he's missing an important card to make his dream come true, and for that he would need a serendipitous event. Imagine if just when he's about to release the tape of Khashoggi being tortured, screaming, and being sawed into pieces by Saudi barbarians, the 28 pages from the 9/11 Commission Report that pointed to the Saudi government's involvement in the 9/11 plot were released to the American people. Imagine, the tsunami of rage that would rise against the KSA and those who concealed the truth from the American people. The Bush administration played a major role in the deception over 9/11. Also covered up where the investigators' reports that probably pointed to Israeli/Zionist involvement.

No doubt Bush & co. and others in Congess removed those pages because the wanted to justify the war in Iraq and hide why they didn't go after the Saudis instead and of course protect Israel.

What a historically priceless moment it would be to have the two shocking revelations crash like meteors onto the Capitol! One can only dream. Americans are so in need of a rude awakening.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 18 2018 5:18 utc | 90

Not saying the Saudis are innocent, but why believe there's a genuine tape with all contents as claimed? Just because an anonymous Turkish source (let me guess, "senior source") says so? Don't we all come to MoA for a critical re-think of what the MSM feeds us? And while there are real questions what Lindsey Graham is, Chinese he's not; so why put his family name first?

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 18 2018 6:37 utc | 91

Curious as to why this part of the story has been so overlooked: US intelligence had a duty to warn Khashoggi. B put up a post about this shortly after Khashoggi disappeared.

Posted by: teri | Oct 18 2018 7:00 utc | 92

Here's another opinion...

I have also read that the conservative clergy

prevent modernisation in SA = "Vision 2030"
and therefore prepared a coup against MBS.

Angered By Saudi Plan to Purchase Russian S-400, Trump Admin Exploiting Khashoggi Disappearance to Force Saudis to “Buy American”

The disappearance and alleged murder of Saudi journalist and Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi continues to strain relations between the United States and Saudi Arabia. On Saturday, President Donald Trump warned the Saudis of “severe punishment” if the Saudi government was found to have been responsible for the journalist’s alleged murder.

The Saudi government has vocally denied any involvement even though Khashoggi disappeared within the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul and responded to Trump’s threats by vowing an even “stronger” response if the Gulf monarchy is ultimately targeted by the United States. The exchange of threats caused Saudi stocks to sustain their biggest one-day loss since 2016 when trading opened and has brought the upcoming three-day Future Investment Initiative (FII) in Saudi Arabia much unwanted negative publicity....

Posted by: Samba | Oct 18 2018 7:07 utc | 93

Isn't B becoming a bit emotional about this issue? "MbS needs to be removed" <- You're starting to sound like David Cameron, my friend. All this outrage comes from the same USA that merrily bombed al-Jazeera's office in Kabul. Trump needs to think hard if it isn't time to put his foot down, instead of just playing tough guy on twitter. All this time he uses the MSM as a rhetorical punching bag, and yet he's thrown most of his true supporters under the bus, often just because they were targeted by some MSM hit piece. In the end, the US wants someone in Riyadh who can do dirty work for them; if Trump allows that to be Brennan's guy instead of his own, he diminishes even further. Clearly we're not looking to DJT for sage leadership, but has Donald the Showman still got it? Seems to me you simply need an even bigger outrage somewhere else (preferably at Putin's expense), and the camera's will move on.

As for the bottom line, isn't the question simply if the Clown Prince retains jewish protection? If this is still the case, then after a while Lindsey Graham will remember what's good for him.

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 18 2018 7:20 utc | 94

Why don't people start a petition (with Aavaz, for example?) to ask Western governments to offer asylum to the families of the people implied in the Saudi Pulp Fiction? After all they are just going to welcome 300 White helmets + family, so it would be just fair that wives who now want to leave criminal husbands and a criminal state could be helped in their escape?

Posted by: Mina | Oct 18 2018 7:44 utc | 95

@89 teri... the question certaibly feeds the ongoing question on some sort of divide in the intl community with trump.... either way, trump is in a difficult position thanks the present storyline regarding kashoggi..he has said enough stupid commentson this topic so far, regardless the various possibilities here.. while it has been fun for many to say trump has to go, i think clown p has to go as well. it seems to me that is where this is headed..

Posted by: james | Oct 18 2018 8:22 utc | 96

Posted by: Mina | Oct 18, 2018 3:44:39 AM | 95

It is high time Western governments offer asylum to Saudis. Fleeing Saudis are returned from airport zones to horrible fates.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 18 2018 8:36 utc | 97

@ Red Ryder Comment #5, "Russia has stakes in Yemen. It would like the old port-base of USSR days."

Bye, Bye ISISraHell. According to RT, If KSA is sanctioned, then one of the thing KSA will do is to give the base in KSA to Russia, which is close to Yemen. The closing off Bab al-Mandeb, closing ISISraHell access to Red Sea.

Why b and others think that:

1. Arabs are fighting with each other:
a. Syria vs Other Arab States
b. KSA vs Qatar

2. Sunni are fighting each other:
a. Turkey vs KSA

3. Muslims are fighting one another:
a. Iran vs KSA

You all give too much credence to ISISraHell and Jews. And, think that Muslims and Arabs are fools.

As President Trump keeps reminding us about, "Fake News"

Time to think hard!

Posted by: Mandid | Oct 18 2018 8:48 utc | 98

The European MSM have been quite silent about the KSA/Canada row and the fate of 7000 students.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 18 2018 9:02 utc | 99

The Murder of Jamal Khashoggi: Oil, Sanctions And The Anti-Trump Establishment

Jamal Khashoggi, who disappeared from the Saudi embassy in Istanbul 2 weeks ago and is presumed dead, is (or was) a Saudi journalist and author. His grandfather (of Turkish origin) married a Saudi woman and served as the personal physician to King Abdulaziz Al Saud, the founder of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. He is the nephew of the late, high-profile Saudi arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, known for his part in the Iran-Contra scandal, and his cousin was Dodi Fayed, Princess Diana's paramour when the two were likely assassinated in a deliberate car crash in a Paris tunnel in 1997.

Posted by: Samba | Oct 18 2018 9:22 utc | 100

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