Saudis Admit Khashoggi Murder - Offer Weak Cover-Up
The Saudi King Salman was told to keep his son, Mohammad bin Salman, in the position of clown prince. It is widely assumed that MbS, the clown prince, ordered to kill Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. The Saudis now admit that Khashoggi was murdered. Two of the clown prince's bootlickers are offered as sacrificial pawns.
Flag of Saudi Arabia - Old Style
After seventeen days of claiming that Khashoggi left the consulate alive, the Saudis acknowledge that he was killed there. But they keep lying about what actually happened:
In a statement issued early Saturday morning in Riyadh, the Saudi capital, the Saudis claimed that some number of unnamed “suspects” had traveled to the consulate to meet with Khashoggi, “as there were indications of the possibility of his returning” to Saudi Arabia. ...“The discussions that took place . . . did not go as required and developed in a negative way,” the statement continued, leading to a “fight and a quarrel” and a “brawl” that led to Khashoggi’s death. The unnamed suspects then attempted “to conceal and cover what happened,” the Saudi government claimed, without elaborating.
"Khashoggi started a tussle with the fifteen men we sent to kindly ask him to come home. Unfortunately he stumbled, fell onto the chainsaw and severed his head."
The clown prince himself knew of course nothing about this, claim Saudi sources:
“There were no orders for them to kill him or even specifically kidnap him,” said the source, speaking on condition of anonymity and adding that there was a standing order to bring critics of the kingdom back to the country.
“MbS had no knowledge of this specific operation and certainly did not order a kidnapping or murder of anybody. He will have been aware of the general instruction to tell people to come back,” the source said, using the initials of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.The source said the whereabouts of Khashoggi’s body were unclear after it was handed over to a “local cooperator” but there was no sign of it at the consulate.
Well - nobody said that the body is at the consulate. It was suspected to be at the residency of the consul which is a different building the Turkish police was not allowed to search. Where was it buried?
Two advisors to the Saudi clown prince have been named as fall guys. They will be generously compensated. One is his media advisor Saud al Qahtani, the Steve Bannon at the crown prince's court;
SaadAbedine @SaadAbedine - 21:30 utc - 19 Oct 2018
#MBS’ very influential adviser in Royal Court, Saud Al Qahtani reacts to his ousting over @JKhashoggi’s murder with 2 tweets that look like an Academy Award acceptance speech .... “I extend my heartfelt thanks & gratitude to the #Saudi King & Crown Prince"
The other dude to find himself in a new villa is the deputy chief of intelligence, Major General Ahmad al-Assiri. A report on Friday in the New York Times had already named him as a likely fall guy.
There are also some peripheral casualties:
The Saudi government announced that it had detained 18 unnamed individuals and fired two top officials suspected of being involved in the operation.
...
The Saudi government said it would take another month to complete a full investigation, which would be overseen by Mohammed.
Mohammad will find that Mohammad had nothing to do with the issue. Does he really expect to get away with this? A lot depends on the Turkish president Erdogan. Professor Abukhalil suspects that a deal has been made:
asad abukhalil أسعد أبو خليل @asadabukhalil 4:21 utc - 20 Oct 2018
Suddenly, lo and behold, there is an unmistakable positive tone toward Turkey in Saudi regime media. A deal has been struck.
That is not for sure though and would be uncharacteristic for Erdogan. He likes to haggle and tries to draw out any deal as long as possible. We will know for sure in a few days. If the offered deal was insufficient the leaks from the Turkish side will restart. What are the Saudis and the U.S. willing to give to him?
It was the U.S. position that led the Saudis to change their story. On Thursday Trump's tone about the case had changed. He earlier had publicly doubted that anything had happened at all. After his meeting with Secretary of State Pompeo, who had just came back from Turkey and Saudi Arabia, Trump said he believed that Khashoggi was indeed dead. The Turks must have played the audio tape of the killing to Pompeo or to someone in his entourage. The Post reports:
CIA officials have listened to an audio recording that Turkish officials say proves the journalist was killed and dismembered by a team of Saudi agents inside the consulate, according to people familiar with the matter. If verified, the recording would make it difficult for the White House to accept the Saudi version that Khashoggi’s death was effectively an accident.
The 'deep state' in the U.S. and the Washington Post, where Khashoggi wrote his columns, will not be satisfied with the now offered cover up. They want to see MbS (and his friend Jared Kushner) go. The Zionist lobby and President Trump will want both to stay. But the public and Congress may not let go of the issue:
Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, an influential Trump ally, said he doubted the latest admission from Saudi authorities."To say that I am sceptical of the new Saudi narrative about Mr Khashoggi is an understatement," he tweeted.
Bob Menendez, the top US Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, called for sanctions, saying "we need to keep up international pressure" on the kingdom.
The Saudis still need to come up with a better narrative. The current one is not sufficient. The most important question that should have been answered by now is: Where is the dismembered body?
Complicating the official narrative, Ali Shihabi, head of pro-Saudi think tank Arabia Foundation which is said to be close to the government, tweeted that "Khashoggi died from a chokehold during a physical altercation, not a fist fight", citing a senior Saudi source.But pro-government Turkish media have repeatedly claimed that Khashoggi was tortured and decapitated by a Saudi hit squad inside the diplomatic mission, although Turkey has yet to divulge details of its investigation.
"Each successive narrative put out by the Saudis to explain what happened to Khashoggi has strained credulity," Kristian Ulrichsen, a fellow at Rice University's Baker Institute in the United States, told AFP.
"Especially because the Saudis are still unable or unwilling to produce the one piece of evidence -- a body -- that could provide a definitive answer one way or the other."
It is doubtful that today's developments are the end of this saga.
MbS is damaged goods. He will never again be seen as the 'reformer'. Western politicians and companies will try to avoid any association with him. Mohammad bin Salman may have been modernized the Saudi flag. But the evil of the Saudi rulers is still in full view.
Flag of Saudi Arabia - New Style
Posted by b on October 20, 2018 at 8:31 UTC | Permalink
« previous pageDebs @ 101 said in part; " if men honestly study their motives, they know damn well that when their dander is up they have about as much self-control as the dog chained up next door howling to get to the b1tch in heat down the road."
And also;"another example of how silly & careless middle-aged blokes can be when they feel the urge to spear the bearded clam)."
LOL Debs, Christ, so much absolute truth in a couple a' sentences.
Human history is replete with examples of those stated truisms..
Posted by: ben | Oct 21 2018 2:22 utc | 102
@86: Khashoggi went to the Istanbul consulate - or given no other way - to recite the talak ritual and collect the divorce papers.
Under syariah law, a Muslim man declares `` I divorce you'' three times to his wife and the marriage is ended.
Today, he can even send it via text message.
The papers are to facilitate the civil process in Turkey.
Embassy officials in Washington could have declined to undertake his divorce application for a variety of reasons, such as his partner being Turkish, sending him to Istanbul.
Khashoggi could not have a divorce lawyer do the `talak' part, and the consulate could also deny entry to any third party not deemed to have immediate business.
That was the only way to lure him into Saudi Brutalia territory.
Whatever his fears, he had to enter alone without his fiancee or a lawyer.
By Muslim standards, Khashoggi was a progressive. His partner is of the same ilk.
Equality in marriage is a woman's right. Whatever he was, he wanted to honor that.
Hatiz Cengiz has her political stance. But there is no compelling evidence that she is a honeytrap.
Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 21 2018 3:02 utc | 103
For Mr. K, too bad common sense didn't override his adherence to religious tenets...
Posted by: ben | Oct 21 2018 3:28 utc | 104
I do not think that Erdogan will be bought off easily by the US, Saudi, UAE and Israeli AXIS. He represents the Muslim Brotherhood alternative to radical Saudi/UAE Islam and its Zionist supporters in the US and Israel. Erdogan has been trying for a long time to position Turkey as a protecting power for Muslims in the whole world.”
https://www.egyptindependent.com/turkeys-erdogan-seeks-influence-africa/
Furthermore, Erdogan does not forgive easily as in the case of the coup against Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood. Likewise, he has effectively countered the Saudi threat to invade Qatar by placing 2-3 thousand Turkish troops embedded with Qatar forces. His support for the Palestinian people is further evidence for his opposition to the Western backed AXIS. This opposition also explains why he has expanded his outreach to Muslims in Africa and Asia to counteract the Saudi/UAE influence.
https://pomed.org/egypt-daily-update-turkey-egypt-thaw-remains-unlikely-per-erdogan/
Erdogan also needs reliable trade partners to ensure the Turkish economy remains afloat. Russia, Iran and Qatar are key to supplying reliable energy to run the Turkish economy. Thus, he has gone to great lengths to reach agreements with these key partners in opposition the Zionist and Wahhabist wishes.
In the case of Syria, Erdogan has overreached in his support for Turkic people, especially Muslim Brotherhood followers by following Qatar’s lead in supporting terrorist attacks against the Syrian government. Hopefully, he has learned his lesson and will accept Russian guarantees in Idlib province. He still has the problem of the abuse of Turkic tribes by Kurds under US protection in Eastern Syria following the Turkish conquest of Afrin.
At present, all his opponents are more fragile than Erdogan, especially since he released Pompeo’s preacher. Ultimately, Erdogan seeks to reconstitute the Ottoman Empire and reclaim Mecca and Medina from the House of Saud. Such dreams may die, but not easily, and he may yet live to see many of his enemies float down the river.
Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 21 2018 3:29 utc | 105
Neither MbS nor Trump care if thier story are credible.
Posted by: Jared | Oct 21 2018 3:53 utc | 106
As a followup to post #107, it appears that Saudi Arabia requires new energy resources above and beyond what they are already trying to get from Yemen. Recently, MbS threatened to redraw the border with Kuwait to obtain the Khafji and Wafra oil fields.
Emir of Kuwait Sheikh Sabah al-Ahmad al-Jabir al-Sabah called on Turkey to protect it by setting up a Turkish military base in Kuwait. It appears to be a done deal, representing another gain by Erdogan over the House of Saud.
http://www.voltairenet.org/article203564.html
Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 21 2018 3:53 utc | 107
@107 & 109 Krollchem
Thank you for this perspective on Erdogan's progress.
I increasingly admire his skill as a politician. Since the downing of the plane was forgiven by Russia and the extremely fast rapprochement was initiated, again by Russia, the net of geopolitical reality has ruled both the Syrian theater and the relationship of Turkey with Syria's allies.
Of course Erdogan probes each arising moment to see if it holds possibility for any of his past and present dreams, and of course he plays all sides as a hedge, each against another, but still he lands each time on the winning side, with solid material commitment. Putin affirmed as much at Valdai, saying that Turkey was doing the best it could.
Like anyone, Erdogan has his dreams. But every move he makes takes him further into the realities of power on the ground. He must obviously know that eventually, some dreams will no longer even be worth carrying, so clearly does the world present to Turkey the true path of its greatest gain.
Posted by: Grieved | Oct 21 2018 5:06 utc | 108
Krollchem@109
Kuwait is an occupied country with a number of UK and US bases and several more being built. They hardly need defending by Turkey. Sounds like this is just one of the payoffs for Turkeys cooperation on Khashoggi. And more pressure on Saudi Arabia to lower oil prices, move on the Aramco IPO and move faster on US arm purchases they supposedly agreed to with Trump, and to nix those S-400 purchase discussions with Russia and back off on their proposed partnership with Pakistan in the CPEC (pakistan leg of BRICS), etc
If MBS cant get it done on his own maybe KBS lurking in the backdown with his own bone saw will motivate him
Posted by: Pft | Oct 21 2018 5:15 utc | 109
Basically the Empires elite are playing Saudi Arabia and Turkey off each other, both of whom have competing interests in their goals to be future leaders of the region. This is an old game of playing off one side against the other to get something from both. Perhaps they might like to see a war in the region between the 2 wannabe powers like they orchestrated the Iraq-Iran war . At that time they removed their long time ally (the Shah) and got their friend Saddam to invade them while secretly arming Iran, and after the war they played Saddam in his dispute with Kuwait over oil fields and used his invasion of Kuwait as an excuse to invade their former ally, and eventually hanging Saddam after a decade of sanctions/bombing before a final invasion over his role in killing Kurds with chemical weapons provided from the US for that purpose
History repeats, albeit with new twists. Friends become enemies and enrmies become friends in a blink of an eye like in 1984
Posted by: Pft | Oct 21 2018 5:32 utc | 111
Posted again when I hit the enter button so try again.
Pft, your comment gave me a thought. What is the standing of the US bases in Qatar, Kuwait Iraq ect. Are these sovereign US territory as in embassies and so forth. The Russian bases in Syria have that standing.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 21 2018 5:33 utc | 112
@11 Pft and #109 Krollchem
It looks as if we must study developments in Kuwait to see which of your two perspectives offers the greatest rewards.
There is no doubt that Turkey was a strong card in Qatar's hand, although Qatar's entire round of betting was conditioned also on forswearing terrorism and joining the multi-polar world. It turned its position on a dime, and became part of the Eurasian mass, and moved in its orbit. As to how much the Turkish troops dictated the outcome, I personally don't have the expertise to say, but there is no doubt that Qatar has repelled the offensive. Score 1 for Turkey.
If, Krollchem, your view of the situation in Kuwait bears a similar fruit, then we will have learned a lot about the weakness of KSA and its masters. And incidentally, we will learn much about Erdogan's acumen.
If I were Kuwait and suffered the presence of several US and UK bases on my territory, in no way would this reassure me against pressure from KSA, the handmaiden of those very powers, and one moreover with mad dreams of its own. I would welcome any countervailing force for balance. If I had no currency of realpolitik to entice Russia, I would embrace Turkey - perhaps guardedly, perhaps gladly - as a harbinger of better times to come.
So we shall see.
Posted by: Grieved | Oct 21 2018 5:42 utc | 113
@107 krollchem.. good post, thanks. @109 helpful too..
i see erdogan as a complicated character.. cunning, but very decietful as well.. he has gotten rid of, or silinced the opposition thru his manipulations... and i think putin is onto him, while maintaing a nuetral position.. well putin is definitely onto him and is playing him well.. it is not the reverse...giving him just enough rope if he wants to hang himself.. but erdogan has a lot of reasons to not hang himself or double cross putin...
as for turkey, ksa rivalry... i think ksa regime change is one byproduct of the ruthlessness of the west here...usa, israel, uk and etc, are all struggling with a situation it appears they hadn’t forseen... funny how they all chime in on democracy and freedom while fully in bed with medival fiefdoms, ksa, uae and a few others... at least turkey has some cheap version of what they claim to admire, even if all the power is now concentrated in the fanatic erdogans hands... i still maintain turkey is in a tough position due proximity to syria and etc...
moving forward here would require a complete overhaul of these medival fiefdoms.. it would mean the usa, uk, israel and the west would have to stop the pretensions and lies too... money is still the driving force of our world and we are all the poorer for it too... until this changes it will be falsehood and hypocrisy ruling the world..people can talk religion all they want... it is for the peasants, not the lowlife running the financial and political halls of power...sermon for a sunday, lol...
Posted by: james | Oct 21 2018 6:51 utc | 115
MbS head soon to fall
check the jazeera live...
. right on the eve of his Davos toy? they tried to keep him at least til he and his minions fulfill their duties there with the foreign "guests"...
i strongly recommend reading abd al rahman munif's cities of salt in such a moment!
Posted by: mina | Oct 21 2018 6:55 utc | 116
erdogans ultimate king piece is the tape.... if he has it, i would be holding out for more then just money...it has the potential to bring down a number of false fronts in particular this cheap concept of democracy, depending on how the western leaders respond to it...so far trump is demonstating how it is money over morals.. most here knew that about trump and the usa.. same deal uk and etc... if erdogan does release the tape, it will be fun to watch the feigned indignation of our western leaders, none of them adding up to a hill of beans..
i pray erdogan holds out and drbbles the data out, eventually releasing the tape..that would be real leadership skill.. i think, as corrupt as erdo is, he is capable of this too.. i can hope..
Posted by: james | Oct 21 2018 7:18 utc | 117
Trump has just announced he’s pulling out of nucular treaty with Russia ! Another step closer to pergatre for us, but a predicted diversion for him.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 21 2018 7:38 utc | 118
So my first thoughts are—- we were right kashoggi isn’t about kashoggi. Kashoggi is about trump, from the moment that team boarded the plain for Turkey with the bone saw !
All planned between any combination of our main suspects. See above .
Interestingly kashoggi was in UK 3 days before his accident at the Embassy! That points the finger strongly at a UK involvement with US Dems, Saudi’s probably others as mentioned.
Seems to me this wil be part of pm t.may’s brixit plan to make a big trade deal, post Brixit
Incidentally 700,000 marched through London yesterday on a anti- Brixit demonstration! We dont like the raceism
We want to be inclusive not exclusive !!!
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 21 2018 8:27 utc | 119
Just to add to—- this may answer the question I and others asked — who gave kashoggi the false confidence to walk into that Embassy ? Answer— the British establishment ! Fits with the Brit finger pointing at trump.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 21 2018 8:37 utc | 120
james "as corrupt as erdo is"
I'm not sure corrupt would be the right word for Erdo. He had his oil trade with ISIS and facilitated the transfer of jihadists into Syria. At the same time he has a strong sense of his countries history, culture and religion. I doubt he could be bought to turn away from what he believes. I am starting to see Erdogan as a pragmatist headed for the multi-polar world. Erdo's form of Islam, with zinkie types cutting kids throats is sure not my thing. Erdo is what he is but not corrupt in the sense he can be bought and turned against what he believes.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 21 2018 8:41 utc | 121
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 20, 2018 8:50:13 PM | 99
Much will depend on how long and how much Erdo will drip feed the media. And that depends on what Erdogan is wanting out of this and whether or not he gets what he wants.
Saudi Arabia will have to come up with the body. And if they used the bone saw this will be damning.
Turkey getting what it wants would mean the whole Saudi/Israel against Iran strategy being stopped. And reverting to the Obama Muslim Brotherhood strategy involving Qatar. That is a huge prize tag.
My guess is that Saudi Arabia killed the main US-CIA contact in the kingdom.
Europe will not make it either. The Austrian foreign minister is an Arabic speaker and a Middle East specialist. She calls the Kashoggi case just the tip of the mountain of horror.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 21 2018 9:58 utc | 122
Peter AU 1 @ 123:
You don't think Erdogan was corrupt in changing Turkey's constitution to increase the powers of the Presidency and lessen those of the Prime Minister before he transited from being Prime Minister to being the President?
Making his son-in-law Berat Albayrak Energy Minister in 20115 and then Treasury and Finance Minister in 2018 all perfectly squeaky-clean for you?
Erdogan may have a strong sense of Turkish history but does that include the period of Tanzimat in the 19th century when the Ottoman empire was trying to catch up with Western powers to avoid the dismemberment that came in the 1920s? Do you think that outlawing the teaching of Darwin's theory of evolution in schools and universities is a sign that Erdogan's government values academic freedom and scientific enquiry and research?
Does his sense of Turkish history also include the period known as the Sultanate of Women (1566 - 1683) during which the mothers and wives of weak or child sultans ruled the empire and commissioned and maintained major public works projects? Foreign ambassadors quickly learned that they had to deal with the queen mothers if their countries were to do business with the empire. Do you know if Erdogan values the education of girls and women in Turkey?
http://www.thathistorynerd.com/2018/01/the-sultanate-of-women.html
Posted by: Jen | Oct 21 2018 10:09 utc | 123
Now trump has torn up the nucular arms treaty with Russia, to deflect world public attention away from him selve. regarding his prior-aproval he gave to the murder of kashoggi (aleged) .
It will be interesting to await president Putins response ! My guise he will shrug and down play it ! At the moment
he is clean of any envolvment and will want to keep it that way, watching with be-mused fascination as the west digs itself deeper in to the greed and curuption quagmire!!!
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 21 2018 10:32 utc | 124
@ Jen
I was thinking along the lines that a totally corrupt person will put money and wealth above all else.
Erdogan has been a very unsavory character, what with his dealings with ISIS and so forth. Turkey has only very recently declared AQ a terrorist organisation. I am not sure if or when ISIS has been declared a terrorist organisation by Turkey.
Changing the constitution as far as I could tell was done according to Turkish law. Nepotism with his son in law.
Erdogan is a nasty piece of work and I would not like to live in Erdogan's Turkey but there are values (not that we may like them) he puts above material wealth.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 21 2018 10:34 utc | 125
http://syedsoutsidethebox.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-stupidity-of-saudi-explanation-is.html
This blogger describes it as an extreme case of non habeas corpus (no corpse). ``Since you killed him , you must know what happened to the body''.
New turn ( in comments): according to his fiancee, Khashoggi was in the consulate A WEEK BEFORE.
The first time he went, he had been guaranteed safety. He went again without a second thought.
Several other interesting comments.
Those interested in reading it have to check quickly, because he deletes posts regularly and does not archive.
Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 21 2018 10:47 utc | 126
My take on Erodigan/Turkey
There past masters through history at playing one world against another ! The only way to survive and trade in there geo-political position,it works for them. We may not like it, but we can understand it ! It is what it is, and will ever be, as long as it survives or until the map chainges !
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 21 2018 10:58 utc | 127
somebody @ 124
"My guess is that Saudi Arabia killed the main US-CIA contact in the kingdom."
Agree. I think that is the reason for the outrage of Brennan and the msm. I think the goal of the killing was to further cut off funding for Al Qaeda in Idlib.
Posted by: financial matters | Oct 21 2018 11:32 utc | 128
Why do so many of you believe what you're told to believe? You have no reason to.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 21 2018 12:02 utc | 129
peter au and jen.... peter, i hear what you are saying and agree about erdogan having some priciples and maybe not being bought when it comes to turkish nationalism... maybe, but on many other issues as you and jen note, he is a sleazeball from the get go... i was partly saying what i did to counter grieved’s more rosy picture painted @110 !
i think most here see what a slippery dude erdo is..but if he has the tape, and i think he does, he can use that to further his own dreams of glory that he has a special illusion for... thatis a dream of his that can’t be bought off him..
about revealing the body of kashoggi.. i guess dropping bin ladens body from a helicopter over the sea is okay for the west, but not okay for ksa! another fine example of hypocrisy.. or how about germany reassessing the arm sales to ksa? how long did it take germany to kick the russian diplomats out on the “most highly likle” lingo the uk gave on russias responsibility towards skripal? hows that for a great talent for hypocrisy?
some might want to read today’s daily sabah.. see article. titled kashoggi saw turkey as a base for a new middle east..
Posted by: james | Oct 21 2018 12:45 utc | 130
@134 sunny runny... what are you referring to, or is this a game of charades? lol
Posted by: james | Oct 21 2018 12:47 utc | 131
Posted by: ben | Oct 20, 2018 11:28:59 PM | 108
"For Mr. K, too bad common sense didn't override his adherence to religious tenets..."
Exactly. He could have taken his girlfriend to Las Vegas, got married there and lived happily thereafter.
Instead, he was seeking a blessing from the same lord he ran away from. What a fool.
Posted by: hopehely | Oct 21 2018 16:11 utc | 132
@ james 135
Your noting the parallels to elimination of UBL prompts another reflection. Once again, all the information known to the public comes from inside sources, in a controlled, covert operation, with high stakes for several powers. In UBL's case, an assassination in country A, of a high profile person in exile from country B, by uninvited forces of country C. Forces of country C, also, somehow failed to successfully execute the arrest warrant against UBL, and the early story was "resisting arrest."
Of course, the USoA did brag about the operation in Abbotabad after the fact. Didn't really have much choice, considering the noise and the burning helicopter left behind. And Hollywood quickly got out an heroic, official narrative to seal the story, although pieces have since been unraveled a bit at the edges - not that mainstream platforms give such questions any space.
Depending how this present gambit plays out, easy to imagine it becoming source material, in fictionalized form, for future Hollywood productions. It certainly meets the Hollywood violence and gore standard.
The public narrative. The "public arena," as it has long been named, is indeed a place of theater these days.
As for UBL, considering that the bin Laden family is large, is important in the Kingdom, and has close ties with Bushes and others in the west, is it not possible that the body of UBL was quietly returned to them?
About Kashuggi, who knows? One more vanished body.
Posted by: smoke | Oct 21 2018 16:50 utc | 133
I'm curious about a point that I didn't see raised in the various comments about Kashoggi's ill-fated final visit to the embassy.
Two disclaimers of sorts: for the sake of the discussion, I assume that the applicable religious/bureaucratic rules and protocols required Kashoggi to personally visit the embassy. This assumption doesn't rest upon whether the "rules" were deliberately stringently imposed upon Kashoggi, or whether they are SOP that apply to anyone seeking to divorce/remarry under comparable circumstances.
Also, I recognize that these questions all arise from second-guessing and hindsight, and that Kashoggi may have had his own good reasons for obligingly proceeding like a lamb to the slaughter.
But what is the rationale, if any, that required Kashoggi to enter the embassy alone? I guess that there may be some cultural/social restrictions-- i.e., it might be considered inappropriate for his fiancée to accompany him inside. Likewise, presumably Kashoggi couldn't have turned up with an obvious bodyguard type.
Still, he might've brought along some respectable companion on an innocuous pretext.
Some have asserted that Kashoggi asked his fiancée to wait an extraordinary four hours before contacting authorities if he remained (incommunicado) in the embassy; the implication is that Kashoggi may have expected trouble, one way or another.
Thus, to me the fact that he either chose, or was instructed, to enter the embassy alone is crucial. Even if obtaining the alleged divorce documentation is somehow a personal, private affair-- like, say, Catholics confessing their sins during the sacrament of Penance-- why should this exclude a companion from entering the embassy and simply waiting in some antechamber while the "sacred" business is accomplished?
I mean, it's not as if he were delivering ransom money to kidnappers, or engaging in the kind of illicit business that demands solitary secrecy.
The answer seems to be that Kashoggi was simply lulled into a false sense of security, although the "four hour" time frame suggests otherwise. Given his background and experience, this doesn't seem compelling to me.
I think a better explanation is needed for the sinister, ominous circumstance of Kashoggi's solitary entrance to that embassy.
Posted by: Ort | Oct 21 2018 17:52 utc | 134
@138 smoke.. thanksfor the overview... the way i see it almost anything is possible...especially when i or we don’t have a full inside track on everything.. no one does anyway, so my mind is always open to many different possibilities.... that might be a flaw or a strength depending on ones outlook!
Posted by: james | Oct 21 2018 17:53 utc | 135
126&132--
That goes with my thought that Khashoggi once exiled was internally, secretly declared to be an Enemy of the State with a Death Warrant along the lines as Alwaki was by Obama. We'll probably never know why that line wasn't announced by Saudi to begin with as it would have immediately defused what's become a small crisis. Anyway, all that's now water under the bridge as Saudi has instead created a different mess for itself. IF the end result is a total 180 in policy direction by the GCC toward Iran and Palestine and away from their Imperial overlords, then the geopolitical outcome will be most welcomed, IMO.
Further IMO, Russia and China working for the past several years diligently behind the scenes has brought the fruit of teaching the GCC crew to stand up for their--actual--own and collective interests instead of being pawns in the Outlaw US Empire/Zionist attempt to control the region for their own narrow interests at the expense of everyone else--especially Palestinians: which in the overall sense means that ALL non-Zionists regional inhabitants are Palestinians and will be treated as such as was witnessed with Iraqis and Syrians, with the Iranians to be next. IMO, that's the real hidden reason why BigLie Media is so upset: Khashoggi's death means that the previous gambit is now ended. What happens next is a toss-up. I think the West loses if it attempts to sanction or regime change Saudi via invasion as the soft-version is now kaput. But as I've said several times, we'll need to wait and see.
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 21 2018 18:39 utc | 136
In an effort to keep two steps ahead of these, brutal gangsters all we can do is —wait for the kashoggi wreckage to settle (like a multable pile up) and see who steps out neat and tidy with a big smile ! Pretty much what Putin will be doing. I’m with him !
My guise democrats and establishment brits! Both chummy with that banking family, Jacob & Evylin !!
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 21 2018 20:09 utc | 137
James reading through the comments I felt as if it was missing or at least not being said clearly enough but you and some others are saying the same as me. I was pointing out that we don't really have any proof of anything at all —only howling media, politicians, NGOs, and their like— and we still likely won't have any trustworthy proof even if there's audio, video, blood stains, a few ground up remains, and DNA tests: all of which can relatively trivially be faked to fool anybody be it Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the EU, the US, Russia, or anybody else by anybody with money and access.
However there's none of that yet and so it's far too easy to fake the entire thing with next to nothing. Throw out some opposing sets of lies in the form of false choices targeted to various biases for people to self-identify with according to who they are or dislike the most. That seems to be the normal way of doing things time and time again.
The usual outlets like Bellingcat, NYT, Reuters, WaPo, Guardian etc. guarantees that one is being had.
We don't even have a solid reason to believe anyone is dead. If for example enough key people (and this number could be in the single digits) at the specific Saudi embassy were loyal for whatever reason to the CIA (a possibility that isn't too far out there) then the CIA could send their guy in and have him leave alive and well together with his "killers" wearing the same attire or taking a nap in a body bag until they're far away and put him on a plane to... let's say Vegas with a new identity :)
I'm not at all saying that anything like that happened but I am saying such a concoction of mine could be as close to the truth as anything else being offered purely by chance. We simply don't know anything except that none of the involved can be trusted at all in any way.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 21 2018 21:46 utc | 138
Turkish reports suggest Khashoggi spoke to MBS on a cellphone inside the Saudi consulate prior to his killing.
Posted by: John Gilberts | Oct 22 2018 0:12 utc | 139
Peter AU 1 @ 129, James @ 135:
Changing the constitution and installing one's son-in-law in key cabinet positions without breaking any laws are still unethical and if the motive behind such changes was greed for more power and wealth, they can still count as corrupt activities. Corruption can occur even in the absence of obvious legal violations. One has to consider the action in the context of previous behaviours and actions by Erdogan, and see what pattern/s and motivations are suggested.
Posted by: Jen | Oct 22 2018 0:51 utc | 140
Jen@145
According to Nikki Haley Jared Kushner is a hidden genius (sic)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2OYsgeD4n8
Apparently, he engineered both the AXIS of evil between the Zionist in Israel and the US and the Wahhabists of Saudi Arabia and the UAE while finding the time to plan and carry out the Trump NAFTA replacement trade deal.
Gives new meaning to outsourcing the US government- not that it was great(er) in the first place.
Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 22 2018 1:22 utc | 141
Krollchem @ 145:
I was actually referring to Erdogan's change to the Turkish constitution that transferred powers from the Prime Minister to the President when he was in the twilight zone of his second and final term as Prime Minister and well on the way to becoming President. The son-in-law referred to is Berat Albayrak, former Energy Minister and current Finance Minister in Turkey.
But yes you are right: outsourcing the US government to one's relatives and in-laws gains a new meaning. The practice should have its own term in English.
Posted by: Jen | Oct 22 2018 4:08 utc | 142
@143 sunny runny... i agree with you... it is all speculation at this point, however ksa has said kashoggi is dead.. they might be still lying, but i tend to beleive this after a long series of lies from them.. i could be wrong though..
@145 jen.. i agree and note the parallels with erdo and trumps actions too! actually it is funny how krollchem went right into that too!
Posted by: james | Oct 22 2018 6:27 utc | 143
But yes you are right: outsourcing the US government to one's relatives and in-laws gains a new meaning. The practice should have its own term in English.
Posted by: Jen | Oct 22, 2018 12:08:15 AM | 147
Nepotism is the word for this. As the discussion shows, a practice currently observed in KSA, Turkey and USA can't be new, the same idea occurred to people very, very long time ago. Popes could not have children, well, official children, but they could favor nephews (or the unofficial children), nephew = nepos, hence nepotism. No special words are created for other family members.
The practice is quite regular, John Kennedy appointed his brother to Secretary of Justice, Bill Clinton appointed his wife to head a commission planning health care reform. What makes it controversial is lack of formal qualifications or even informal ones on the part of beneficiaries, and symptoms of instantaneous pocketing of huge gains. Bilal, Kuschner and MbS fit that template. The word we need is X-ism, X being a badly needed term for greedy idiots. Gif for "greedy idiotic favorite who if mocked with a GIF image"? Ah, back to the drawing board. Nevertheless, "objectionable nepotism" is basically the term we can use.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 22 2018 10:48 utc | 144
Who is Saudi Arabia's greatest political antagonist after Iran? Who, outside of the kingdom, stands to gain most from MbS's embarrassment? Who wishes to replace the House of Saud as the unquestioned protector of the Faith? Who had access to Jamal Khashoggi, and racial ties to him directly, not to mention to his fiancee? Who was connected to him by way of the Muslim Brotherhood? Who called him a 'dear friend'? And finally, who is making the most political (and not only) capital from the whole stinking affair? There is our answer folks. All the other players are just trying to salvage what they can after being caught flatfooted. That's why so little is emanating from Moscow, Teheran and Tel Aviv.
Posted by: SPYRIDON POLITIS | Oct 22 2018 12:41 utc | 145
Why did MBS think it would be a good idea to kill Khashoggi, who was probably a CIA asset in addition to being a fairly prominent member of the US media working for the Washington Post, another CIA asset, in a fashion that could only be attributed to him? That just doesn't seem possible. Saudi Arabia knows how to remove the inconvenient with "plausible deniability" as evidenced by the recent demise of a member of the alleged hit team in a car "accident". Why didn't they do the something similar with Khashoggi?
I find it difficult to believe that MBS would be so blatantly stupid. There is something about this that doesn't add up.
Posted by: David | Oct 22 2018 13:00 utc | 146
Posted by: David | Oct 22, 2018 9:00:51 AM | 151
It looks like MBS could not go through KSA's highly professional Secret Services but had to use his amateurish body guard.
His first step after the affair was to (try?) get control of KSA's security services.
Some people seem to think the Crown prince can still be reigned in.
Posted by: somebody | Oct 22 2018 13:25 utc | 147
Thing is, I've yet to see one single proof that MBS is actually clever, smart or intelligent, and not another inbred retard like the Saudi royals seem to pop on a regular basis, day in, day out. Because his past track record is kind of mediocre. The only scheme that didn't blew up to his face until now is the jailing and torturing of his family members to extort a few billions from their bank accounts - and it seems that both Jared Kushner and McKinsey Consulting helped him in the targetting phase.
Not that MBS is the only one who fucks up big time. Happened to plenty of people before him, he's in a good and very vast company. Even say his Emirati pals and mentors can screw up from time to time, after all.
Posted by: Clueless Joe | Oct 22 2018 13:59 utc | 148
The latest from Turkey: The Saw-dis brought in a body double of Khashoggi with the hit sqaud and the Turks picked him up on cctv walking into the Consulate in a plaid shirt approx.two hours before the hit and after the hit walking around Istanbul in Khashoggi's clothes. He then changes clothes and dumps Khashoggi's clothes. So it wasn't planned, huh? This proves the Turks were truthful at the beginning when they claimed the Sawdis removed Khashoggi's clothes and then tortured and killed him! They needed his clothes to later put on a SHAM APPEARANCE (and no doubt brian and Laoshi would say see I told you he was still alive!)
It was all planned. And Zio-Trump is colluding to cover MbSaw's a.s.s.!
Here's the amateur body-double on cctv. It would be laughable if it weren't so disgusting.
Posted by: Circe | Oct 22 2018 14:25 utc | 149
The end of the war in Syria means for the players settings their accounts. There is no reason why Turkey/Qatar should take on all the blame especially when KSA/NATO played a strong role in pushing them towards Qaddafi/Assad rather than to see Iraq/Oman/KSA explode and Yemen run away with its rich underground and touristic prospects.
Probably the US Deep State found a way to cut Trump's ladder just before the midterms while pleasing the EU establishment, who is quite pissed off at the oukaz against business with Iran.
CNN and BBC were always ahead of the Khashoghi story, in comparison with France, which has a bad economy and is desperate to sell a few nuclear plants to the Saudis (Angie, former EDF, is among the companies who did not cancel its participation to the Desert Davos).
I wonder if some players have not realized that the fake peace plan Trump-Kushner/KSA and Israel were trying to sell was just a joke (the high-tech island that would provide thousands of jobs to.. whom? the Palestinians only? or the unemployed youth of KSA, Yemen, Egypt?)
When I see the collection of bad films the Saudis have been able to paste together for their operation, I don't wonder anymore why they are unable to produce a single movie ... The latest videos on CNN.. about the guy going out with K's clothes prove the premeditation.
Posted by: Mina | Oct 22 2018 14:30 utc | 150
So guess who's in charge of getting to the truth on Khashoggigate?
JARED666
And one of his first conclusions is to state what a great ally Saw-di Arabia is in countering Iran. Real impartial Zionist fact finding!
Posted by: Circe | Oct 22 2018 15:10 utc | 151
The Eu Deep State probably understands very well that KSA, Trump and Netanyahu are indirect causes for the rise of the extreme-right. As was their foolish attacks on Libya and Syria and the consequences in terms of displaced populations (that includes the African migrants who don't have the Libyan eldorado anymore). With the threat of Italy getting Italxit one day, it was time to act.
Posted by: Mina | Oct 22 2018 16:09 utc | 152
Posted by: David | Oct 22, 2018 9:00:51 AM | 151
I contended earlier, and still contend, that the intent was to kidnap Khashoggi and bring him back to the Kingdom and that the plan was hijacked by elements within the security service sympathetic to those who had been humiliated at the Ritz Calton. Whether they involved Turkey or whether Turkey just jumped at a superb opportunity (I believe that it was the former), Turkey surely stands to gain, as do those in the Hew Hess Hay who would like to smear The Don and Jared by exploiting their closeness to MbS.
Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 22 2018 17:49 utc | 153
Mina@157
Thanks for your comments that add a deeper understanding of the Middle East.
Your comment about African migrants suggests to me that the EU political class is facing a backlash (negative feedback) from the refugee crisis they created by destroying Libya.
It appears to me that the EU is siding with Turkey and against the Zionist US and Israel. I suspect that they fear Turkey will flood the EU with Syrian refugees which would lead to their downfall.
Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 22 2018 19:32 utc | 154
The comments to this entry are closed.
k1 @ 98: The greatest challenge presented seems to be, how to get thoughts and information expressed here, into the minds and
eyes of the American public.
The cretins that rule the U$A own all the conduits of information, with very few exceptions. If it isn't seen on our latest hypnotic electronic gadgets, it never happened..
Posted by: ben | Oct 21 2018 2:08 utc | 101