Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 22, 2018

Khashoggi Drama - A Deal Is No Longer Possible - Erdogan Demands That MbS Goes

The Khashoggi saga continues to influence Middle East policies.

On Friday the Saudi regime admitted that Khashoggi was killed in its consulate in Istanbul. Since then they have changed their story twice:

After weeks of denying involvement in Khashoggi's disappearance, Saudi Arabia said that he was killed in the Istanbul consulate, saying his death was the result of a "fistfight". A Saudi source close to the royal palace later told CNN that the Washington Post journalist died in a chokehold. On Sunday, its foreign minister, Adel al-Jubeir, went further, describing Khashoggi's death on Fox News as a "murder" and a "tremendous mistake."

Mohammad bin Salman, the Saudi clown prince and effective ruler, does not seem to have any good media advisors. By not sticking to one story all further Saudi accounts will immediately come into doubt.

The Saudis originally claimed that Khashoggi had left the consulate. We now know why they felt safe to make that claim. CNN has a new Turkish story of a decoy which was send out to make it look as if Khashoggi left. They provide pictures to prove it:

One member of the 15-man team suspected in the death of Jamal Khashoggi dressed up in his clothes and was captured on surveillance cameras around Istanbul on the day the journalist was killed, a senior Turkish official has told CNN.

CNN has obtained exclusive law enforcement surveillance footage, part of the Turkish government's investigation, that appears to show the man leaving the consulate by the back door, wearing Khashoggi's clothes, a fake beard, and glasses.

While Khashoggi was half bald, the decoy in Khashoggi's cloth seems to have full hair.


Bit by bit the Turkish government leaks more of the sorry tale. It helps to keep the issue on the political agenda.

YeniSafak, an Erdogan aligned broadsheet, claims (Turkish, machine translation) that Khashoggi was put on the phone with MbS while he was in the consulate. He was allegedly told to return to Saudi Arabia. After he rejected to do so he was killed.

A later YeniSafak report (Turkish, machine translation) says that Saudi teamleader in the consulate, Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb, made a total of four calls to bin Salman's office manager Badr bin Mohammed Al Asaker in Riyadh. Al Asaker is the head of the crown prince's foundation and his 'invisible hand'. Mutreb allegedly used the cell phone of the consul. Another call was made to the U.S., presumably to Khalid bin Salman, the brother of MbS who is the Saudi ambassador in Washington DC. Khalid has since returned to Riyadh. Al Jazeerah Arabic had earlier reported of such calls, and of 19 additional WhatsUp calls to MbS himself.

If the news of these calls proves to be true, the killing of Khashoggi was undoubtedly premeditated murder on the direct order of the clown prince.


Turkish police also found an abandoned car that is owned by the Saudi consulate. It can be seen on CCTV footage of the consulate on the day that Khashoggi was killed.

All this proves that the spy-craft of the Saudi assassination team was abysmal. All cellphone networks store records of each call. Any foreign official's phone in Turkey is under surveillance of the country's intelligence service. Only some throw-away phone with an anonymous prepaid card could have given some protection.

It seems that the Saudi team simply did not care. It tried to obscure the incident by removing the body, but did otherwise little to hide the operation. They likely expected to get away with this. Their boss, MbS, certainly did:

As the disappearance of Mr. Khashoggi escalated into a diplomatic crisis, Prince Mohammed was shocked by the backlash. He couldn’t understand why Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance was such a big deal, according to people who recently interacted with the prince.
On Oct. 10, eight days after Mr. Khashoggi went missing, Prince Mohammed called Jared Kushner, the adviser and son-in-law to President Trump, according to people briefed on the phone conversation.

Why the outrage, Prince Mohammed asked in English.
The prince’s confusion soon turned into rage. “He was really shocked that there was such a big reaction to it,” said a person close to the royal court. “He feels betrayed by the West. He said he would look elsewhere and he will never forget how people turned against him before evidence was produced.”

No one seems to care how many Yemeni's Mohammad bin Salman kills each day. There was no harsh reaction when MbS kidnapped the Lebanese Prime Minister Hariri, nor when he incarcerated nearly 400 princes and tortured them to steal their money. Why would anyone care about Khashoggi?

Because that is how human psychology works:

The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.
Josef Stalin

We humans care way more for a single persons we know, than for a mass of people we have no relations with.

Khashoggi was a personal friend of Erdogan. He was a columnist at the Washington Post, the CIA's most favored news outlet. Mohammad bin Salman is an enemy of both. Neither the neocon opinion editor of the Post, Fred Hiatt, nor Erdogan have any love for the Saudi clown prince. They would of course raise a ruckus when given such a chance.

They will pile on and air the Saudi's dirty linen until MbS is gone. Yesterday the New York Times exposed the twitter brigades the Saudis hired to manipulate the public. Today the Washington Post has a detailed report of Saudi influence peddling through U.S. stink tanks. The Middle East Institute, CSIS and Brookings get called out. Lobbyists for the Saudis are canceling their contracts. More such reports will come  out. Years of lobbying and tens of millions of dollars to push pro-Saudi propaganda have now gone to waste.

The affair is damaging to Trump. He built his Middle East policy on his relations with Saudi Arabia. But he can not avoid the issue and has to call out MbS over the killing. His own party is pressing for it. Yesterday the Republican Senator Bob Corker, chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, dismissed the Saudi version of the story on CNN and called (vid) for consequences:

"It is my sense, I don't know yet, but based on the intel I have read, based on the other excerpts that I have read, it is my thinking that MbS was involved in this, that he directed this and that this person was purposefully murdered."
There has to be a punishment and a price paid for that.
Do I think he did it? Yes, I think he did it. [...] We obviously have intercepts from the past that point to involvement at a very high level, so let's let play this out.

On Sunday Erdogan was on the phone with Trump. The Turkish readout of the call hints at negotiations over Syria, the lifting of sanctions against Turkey and other issues. But the Khashoggi case has now gone too far to allow for a deal to be made over it.

Erdogan's mouthpiece, the somewhat lunatic columnist Ibrahim Karagül, gives an insight into Erdogan's thinking and sets out his aims:

The real trap was set against Saudi Arabia. Even though a Saudi Arabia-U.S.-Israel rapport was established and discourse about shielding the Riyadh administration from Iran, the objective was to destroy Saudi Arabia through Salman and Zayed. The next front after the Syria war was the Persian Gulf, Saudi Arabia. They never understood this, they could not understand it. Turkey understood it, but the Arab political mind was blinded.

Now Saudi Arabia is in a very difficult situation. The world collapsed over them. Crown Prince Salman is going through a tough test via Zayed, who has control over him. If the gravity of the situation after the facts revealed with the Khashoggi murder is not comprehended, we will witness a “Saudi Arabia front” in less than a few years.
The Riyadh administration must dethrone Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman at once. It has no other choice. Otherwise, it is going to pay very heavy prices. If they fail to quash the trap set up targeting Saudi Arabia through bin Zayed, they will be victims of Trump’s “You won’t last two weeks” statement, and the process is going to start to work in that direction.
This duo must be taken out of the entire region and neutralized. Otherwise they are going to throw the region in fire.

Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi Mohammed bin Zayed is Mohammad bin Salman's mentor and partner in crime in Yemen. MbZ is smarter than MbS - and will be more difficult to dislodge.

Erdogan announced that he will describe more details of the case on Tuesday in a speech to his party's parliament group. He will probably not yet play the tape from inside the consulate that Turkish intelligence claims to have. But he may well confirm the revealed phone calls and threaten to release their content.

Erdogan's aim seems clear. The chance for deal is gone. MbS has to go. He will try to play the case out until that is achieved.

Posted by b on October 22, 2018 at 15:47 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

Apologies b, and all for the OT..

Posted by: ben | Oct 23 2018 3:35 utc | 101

fast freddy 94 "Why? BC it fits an agenda. Somebody wants MBS out."

A little more than that. One somebody wants to diminish Saudi clout in the Islamic world (not just MBS) and the other somebody faction wants Trump out.

And for the apathetic crown - the MSM propaganda machine is pushing it, not forgetting the bulk of western propaganda outlets were anti Trump pro Clinton from the start. Very likely to rock the current status quo, potentially a game changer. US elected rep clowns want to sanction the headchoppers but are worried they will turn to the Russia China Iran axis.
Trumps plans for the middle east are now blown to pieces, as the elected rep clowns will stymie him the same as they did with his vision of detente or partners in crime or whatever it was he wanted from the US Russia relationship.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 23 2018 4:12 utc | 102

Should have read... And for the apathetic crowd.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 23 2018 4:15 utc | 103

Debsisdead 101

This is the way I am thinking.
Erdogan is a Muslim. A strong believer in his version of Islam. He has also indulged in what we call nepotism. Marriage laws in Turkey were set by a secular government. I am thinking Erdogan would overlook these laws for a friend, or somebody that was important to his vision for Turkey.

Re "I would say he is an extremely good 'reader' of other humans."
Erdo is certainly proving himself to be the consummate geo-political animal. I am wondering if he read MBS correctly and based a plan on that. In saying that, I also think the hit was a joint venture between Erdo and an anti Trump faction in the US.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 23 2018 5:10 utc | 104

@106 except even by muslim standards you can only get married to a second woman if the first one agrees and she doesnt stipulate the opposite in the oblugatory marriage contract

Posted by: Occidentosis | Oct 23 2018 5:34 utc | 105

@ karlof1
I think the second Chechen war was a taste of things to come. Total amnesty for those that change their ways, and total destruction for those that don't.
Saudi's though are in a predicament. If they change their ways - not that I'm thinking MBS will ever become a decent human - US will launch a shock and awe attack in 'retribution' for 9 11.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 23 2018 5:42 utc | 106

Occidentosis 107
Seems to depend on which version of Islam.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 23 2018 5:51 utc | 107

107 Kadyrov has two wives and believes four are ok in the Chechen version of Islam

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 23 2018 5:58 utc | 108

Erdogan has not sold out to SA or Trump because he is using this to propel a return of the Ottoman Caliphate, accompanied by the Brotherhood, Shiism, and Iran. He is succeeding. Goodbye Yinon plan; goodbye attempts by the US to encircle Russia from the south; goodbye efforts to infest Russia and China with armies of Wahhabi-groomed, fed, and supplied mercenary head-choppers. This story remains in the news not because of some underlying Deep State actors fueling the media, but because Erdogan keeps dribbling pieces of evidence, like bombs, to the world, and MSM muckrakers are never going to ignore such a sensational drama. While it is true this story will not change the minds of any Americans, they will be fascinated by the treachery of the rich and powerful, just as we still are drawn to Oedipus Rex and Othello. The broader framing is the self-inflicted, slow-motion collapse via the hubris of the Thrasymachus, "Might Makes Right" crowd in Sunniland, Jerusalem, Washington, London, and Paris. I am including not only Mohammad bone Sawman, Agent Orange, and Nuttyahoo in that crowd, but the entire army of enabling bureaucratic and corporate sycophantic parasites that make a living sucking the blood of the world polis. This is a plot Sophocles would recognize and one Socrates/Plato mapped out at the dawn of Western Civilization. The masks change, but the addictions within human nature stay the same.

Posted by: JNDillard | Oct 23 2018 6:27 utc | 109

Posted by: Novice Novichok | Oct 23, 2018 1:48:28 AM | 109

I don't know about the others here but I did notice there are civilian deaths in Syria.

I do blame the same people for it though I blame in Yemen (and Libya).

Posted by: somebody | Oct 23 2018 7:57 utc | 110

It's easy to form a mental picture of Assad having breakfast with his wife.....logging on to his iPad...sipping his coffee...

and pissing himself laughing.

Posted by: Guy Thornton | Oct 23 2018 8:20 utc | 111

Like Skripal was a means to and end —- anti-Russia public opinion.
So is kashoggi! It’s just another puppet show ! Follow the strings up a bit. That’s what matters. Even trump is just another muppet.
I’m not laughing ! This will get us killed nucular war hardly mentioned ! Bio war ?

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 23 2018 8:37 utc | 112

Hmm, the Erdy kick off has been delayed.

He is already 20 minutes late for his speech. Have to wonder if he is currently being made an offer he cannot refuse or one he dare not refuse. Of course he may have run outta gas or copped a flat tyre.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 23 2018 9:10 utc | 113


"The body of murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi was found in a well in the residence of the Saudi consul general in Istanbul, Patriotic Party (VATAN) leader Dogu Perincek told Sputnik."

Hard to believe!

Posted by: Scotch Bingeington | Oct 23 2018 9:12 utc | 114

@118 debs... visit daily sabah....breaking news....

Posted by: james | Oct 23 2018 9:35 utc | 115

Single new element in Erdo speech is abuot the premeditation: people flew in in the days before and looked at a forest and started to plot immediately after K first visited the consulate.
The leaks will continue and the bids will rise until complete settlement of the Syrian mess responsibilities.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 9:46 utc | 116

Agree with Mina,

Erdogan's main point is that this was premeditated murder and that the Saudi story is bullshit.
- A team of 3 arrived on October 1, a day before the murder, and checked the Belgrade forest outside of Istanbul where everyone buries the corpses they want to get rid of.
- He wants extradition of the culprits

Also a new Turkish 'leak': The Saudi military attache at the consulate, Al Mozani, flew back to Riyadh on Sept 29 immediately after Khashoggi visited the consulate for the first time. In Riyadh he discussed plans with Gen. Ahmed al-Assiri, the deputy intelligence chief who arranged the team. Came back on October 1 and left October 2 after the murder happened.

Posted by: b | Oct 23 2018 9:59 utc | 117

Erdo mentioned the king but never his son. He brought the story to the theological/juridical plan. He did say that both the shari3a and international laws ask for precise answers and he put a serie of very simple questions as to why the people gathered in Istanbul and where is the body. He also asked for the names of the guilty, and requested the culprits are identified "from the bottom to the ceiling". The coming (non-)answers of the Saudis will show they are unfit for the "custodianship of the two holy places", also on the theological and juridical point of view.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 10:17 utc | 118

There is something in the jaws and mouth of this guy which is deeply heinous. It is beyond me how in the US a president can nominate some of his relatives at top jobs.
Watching him holding to the rotten KSA/Netanyahu plank is almost funny, if not for his hateful smile.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 10:20 utc | 119

Erdogan wanting the names of all the culprits from top to bottom, coupled with him addressing directly the King without a mention of MBS strongly implies that he considers MBS to be the last (or first) culprit at the top. No way the clown prince would ever be extradited, of course; but then, I don't think any of his goons would ever be - unless there's a palace coup and someone else rules in place of MBS, in which case settling scores and playing nice with Turkey would be the smart move to show everyone that there's a new fairer saner leadership around.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Oct 23 2018 10:29 utc | 120

People say that Erdo surrendered to pressures by not giving more but just the schedule of his speech, exactly at the time the Desert Davos starts, was already a landmark. He is smart in business too.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 10:47 utc | 121

turkish police are also waiting to investigate the contents of the abandoned saudi council mercedes left in the building, pending saudis agreement... apparently the car is covered by diplomatic immunity so needs ksa to approve the search.. chemical mask was retrieved from the garbage though.. see hurriyet news for the story...

Posted by: james | Oct 23 2018 11:06 utc | 122

erdo also wants the 18 brought to istanbul for trail.. erdo isn’t letting up...

Posted by: james | Oct 23 2018 11:07 utc | 123

Isn't it obvious that this is a conflict between the neocons and neolibs over SA/MBS? We know that the two sides have opposing interest time to time.

Posted by: j | Oct 23 2018 11:22 utc | 124

It seems to me he is letting up. No video, not even any of the audio tapes, nor any mention of clown prince Fishy, just a mention of his dad the king as an honest man. He has either cut a deal right at the last moment and is soft pedalling like f**k so as to not seem as tho he is disappointing his public, or is so close to closing the deal he doesn't want to screw the pooch by pointing the finger at Fishy.
Trump cannot save Fishy without appearing a kiss arse but if Erdy doesn't hand over the goods, that isn't agent orange's fault (yeah riiight)
That was Erdy's moment when he was gonna tell all but he didn't.
You wouldn't want to be a kurdish former friend of amerika right now, and neither would you want to be a Syrian aligned with Saudi, UAE, or for that matter, Assad if you live in the North. Erdy prolly won't get Mecca or Medina, but he will get Idlib. Neo ottoman empire has got to kick off somewhere and Idlib looks to me to be the go.

If Russia didn't want to get into a big blue over Idlib when she had Iran & sorta Turkey helping, I don't reckon Russia will when Turkey has switched sides and Iran's been pretty much given the flick as a weak as appeasement.
Could be wrong but that bomb factory blowing up in Idlib last weekend says to me that FukusiT is going to use Idlib as a base for all sorts of horror from about late March early April 2019.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Oct 23 2018 12:07 utc | 125

Some soul-searching in Doha

The Turks are masters in writing soap operas (the whole Arab world is glued to them everyday). You can count on them to leak more day after day. Also, releasing the audio would: let people know where/how it is placed and more than that, it would let some people to temper with it or claim it has been. It is not needed. The culprits have been "arrested" in KSA. But where is the trial? And why couldn't KSA extradite them? Because they do not belong to the real world.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 12:48 utc | 126

What happens when all of us are desensitized enough about this gruesome murder?
Therer's a point of diminishing returns.
Erdogan either has to go in for the kill soon --and it better be spectacular-- or lose the game.

Posted by: bjd | Oct 23 2018 12:49 utc | 127

> If the news of these calls proves to be true, the killing of Khashoggi was undoubtedly premeditated murder on the direct order

Is it really the only option?

Why not "Oh, shoot, the bastard crooked, what we do now, boss?" / "Don't pull me into your mess, you did it you fix it!" / "We cannot fix it boss, we need your help" and so forth ?

Posted by: Arioch | Oct 23 2018 12:52 utc | 128

They waited Oct 7th to get rid of some body parts??
And where else than in a car belonging to the consulate??
No one could believe such an abysmal stupidity unless he has actually met with some Saudis.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 12:58 utc | 129

"The best thing about Internet is that few bother to check quotes they enjoy".

(c) Vladimir Lenin.

Posted by: Arioch | Oct 23 2018 13:03 utc | 130

The Who, what, where, when, and how have been known for weeks. What isn’t know is a definitive “why?”. Everyone is jumping to what must be done to rectify the murder, but until the motive is clear we need to focus more on the “why” factor before jumping into the punishment phase of this mess.

Posted by: Harold | Oct 23 2018 13:06 utc | 131

While Trump is throwing MbS under the bus to save his own skin, it seems that 'Vlad the Bad' is set to become MbS's new BFF (see

This will not sit well with the 'Globalists'.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Oct 23 2018 13:12 utc | 132

debs.... erdogan timed this on the same day as the davos in the desert opening...same day... erdo quote...’why has the body of someone who was officially said to be killed, not been found yet?’. erdo has a ways more to go keeping the pressure on clown prince...

as for the chem or bomb factory blowing up in idlib, any guess on who is resonsible? is that turkey ksa conflict, or? hard to know, but i don’t think russia isgoing to let erdo do a mini ottoman empire starting with idlib....the usa and israel would though...obviously the idlib backdrp is playing into all of this... it seems to me erdo is shining a bad light on the usa here too, perhaps due the kurd dynamic..

Posted by: james | Oct 23 2018 13:17 utc | 133

Some are preparing the smoke screen to cover Trump's insanity

Why?? And why all the other opponents of MbS are under house arrest in KSA and unavailable for comments? Don't you think broadcasting his critics in the Washington Post is enough defiance?

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 13:18 utc | 134

Breaking: Khashoggi's body parts found in Saw-di Consul's garden. Fingers were sent to MbS-aw symbolic of cutting off his ability to write. Head not sent back although MbS henchman screamed for his head (Turks have audio), but face was disfigured.

Khashoggi Body Parts Found

Posted by: Circe | Oct 23 2018 13:48 utc | 135

How many dual-national (Israil / American) adviser’s has trump got around him ? At the last count (2-3months ago, ) it was about 75 !!
The Saudis would’nt of topped! Kashoggi without trumps permission ( according to mi6 U.K. establishment ) !! How big an influence do Israil have on U.K. politics? A lot !! Israil are playing this game / there controlling it. At the expense of trump, the brits & the Saudis, cuo bono !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 23 2018 13:50 utc | 136

dh-mtl @ 136 agree

Saudi Arabia Gets a Friend in Need – Russia

""The game changer was a meeting in September 2016 in Hangzhou, China, when on the sidelines of the G20 Summit, Putin met the Saudi Crown Prince Mohamed bin Salman (MBS, as is commonly known.)""

""In effect, Saudi Arabia and Russia are assuming the leadership of the oil producing countries and helping them take consensus decisions. At the same time, Russian-Saudi bilateral energy cooperation has also made a solid beginning. The two countries have investment plans within the ambit of the Russian Direct Investment Fund (RDIF). Saudi Arabia is expected to take a big stake in the LNG project Yamal Phase 2 in the Russian Arctic with equity next only to Novatek. They are discussing swap deals in countries such as India. (Interestingly, Al-Falih sees good prospects for Russian companies’ involvement in Aramco’s ambitious downstream strategy.)""


I think part of this 'friendship' also included an agreement for MBS to tone down his terrorist funding which Russia seems serious to fight (as opposed to the fake US fight)

Posted by: financial matters | Oct 23 2018 13:56 utc | 137


Reddit is alive this morning with 100s of 'outraged' Isreali, Russian and Turkic trolls spewing vitriol over 'Evil Mr bone Saw' and the so-called 'body parts dumped in well onsite' new revelations.

Bibi is doing a good job keeping his corruption trials out of the news, lol. Where was the outrage over Evil Mr. polonium Tea? Or the outrage over Evil Mr. novichok Cocktail? Or the outrage over 100s of Starved to Death Yemeni's a Week?

Yawn, moar Oil Cartel and Arms Deal Cartel Wars. Nothing to see here, citizen.


Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 23 2018 13:57 utc | 138

@77 Pft posted:

So regardless of the truth of Khashoggis disappearance there is a Deep State operation in place, the evidence is in the media saturation and persistence and bipartisan support.

Agree. But that reflects and is only part of the propaganda, diplomatic, military, spying, assassination, etc efforts by competing and highly contradicted interests in US imperial circles. The good news: Ideological superstructure (so-called “American values” “democratic ideals” etc.) more and more exposed as bs and more and more isolated from the lived reality in US. Bad news: Lack so far of substantial forces organized to contend practically and ideologically as anti-imperialist.

Posted by: Lonl | Oct 23 2018 14:03 utc | 139

And to add to my above @ 140
Motive, opotunity, even criminal profiling its all there !—- by deception we do war —- mosad moto!!! It dose what it say’s on the tin,

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 23 2018 14:06 utc | 140

Despite outrage over Khashoggi civilians continue to be targets of MbSaw with Trump's help.

Yemen civilians

Posted by: Circe | Oct 23 2018 14:07 utc | 141


German scrabbler. What'sa matter? You disappointed you can't spin the truth into fiction anymore now that body parts were found?

I can smell hasbara a mile away. How's that Israeli coffee you bragged about? Oh never mind; who cares!


Posted by: Circe | Oct 23 2018 14:17 utc | 142

The Russians may have a better understanding

Posted by: Beam | Oct 23 2018 14:23 utc | 143

Any thoughts on this B?

THE SUN. Russia has sent its Military Forces to Libya:

The Sun can reveal that “dozens” of officers from the GRU military spy service as well as its Spetznaz special forces wing are already on the ground in eastern Libya, initially carrying out training and liaison roles.

Two Russian military bases are already now up and running in the coastal towns of Tobruk and Benghazi, using the cover of the controversial Russian private military company the Wagner Group which already has outposts there.

Russia’s devastating Kalibr anti-ship missiles and state of the art S300 air defence missile systems are also now believed to be on the ground in Libya.

Posted by: Laura Roslin | Oct 23 2018 14:43 utc | 144

Cable news is not reporting discovery of remains because there is a discrepancy with Erdogan's speech demanding Sawdis identify location of remains, but multiple news outlets have run the story.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 23 2018 14:49 utc | 145

Interesting background article on The Intercept:

Posted by: bjd | Oct 23 2018 14:51 utc | 146

B's post fits my own take on the matter, which is as follows: the plan forged years ago under Obama was to develop a pipeline from the Gulf to the south of Turkey and from Turkey to southern Europe, in order to outflank the Russians and ultimately restrict Russian oil to Europe in favour of the Gulf, controlled by Western Oil giants. Turkey was part of it and the plan was to dismember Syria so that that pipeline could be built.

Enter Russia to support Syria in the supposed terrorist war that unfolded. Al-Qaeda and assorted renamed terror groups financed and mind warped by SA were killed or contained, despite the efforts of Turkey and the US.

The attempted coup against Erdogan (because he was not completely compliant) moved him to support Russian efforts because it was the Russians who saved his skin from the Americans. The Saudis were upset that their plans for the pipeline were in jeopardy and seeing over the last year those plans disappear with the Turks accepting to run the Russian pipeline through Turkey to the south of Europe. No Gulf oil pipeline.

Recognizing that Khashoggi was a personal friend of Erdogan and a mild critic of the Saudis, MBS decides to pay Erdogan back by killing him in a gruesome way in Istanbul, in front of Erdogan, so to speak. This happens. But it all goes wrong because the Saudis are such simpletons and Erdogan is not.

The US and the rest of the West are now caught in their hypocrisy of denouncing the Saudis for this murder and yet supplying SA with massive amounts of military equipment. What to do? I am sure that the Russians are enjoying this moment.

Posted by: ninel | Oct 23 2018 15:15 utc | 147

Well said Passer By. In these times, if you aren't a conspiracy theorist, you are an ostrich.

It's not that Putin is weak btw. It's that he is thoroughly corrupt. His dealings with the Saudis are truly sick. He gives them cover for their evil role in Syria, Yemen and now in this affair.

I think part of what has annoyed many about the consulate killing is that it was done in a deliberately blatant way. Most elites in the world now feel the way MBS does, that they are beyond all law and all human decency. The Western elites certainly seem to think this way. Think about Killary's famous celebratory comment on Gaddafi's death. But they still care to keep up appearances a little bit. One doesn't commit the murder right on the mafia boss's door step right? She didn't mount Gaddafi's head on the hood of her car. She may have wanted to but she didn't. MBS didn't just cross that line - he obliterated it. He made an absolute point of murdering the guy right in front of Erdogan's nose. It's almost like wearing mismatched socks.

Posted by: paul | Oct 23 2018 15:21 utc | 148

Good picture of K's son and of psychoMbS in the Sun article linked above

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 15:55 utc | 149

How reliable is this claim that the body (parts) have been found? It hardly seems plausible that the Saudi's would hide the body in the well in the Consul's residence. And if they had done so, why would they grant permission for the residence to be searched? And the head is allegedly there, although the mastermind of the operation allegedly demanded it in Riyadh. Then there is the question of what was taken back to Saudi in the "big bag" just after the killing, if not body parts? Having gone to such lengths to dismember the body, why not go the extra step and take the parts back to Saudi, or at least some of them?

Legally, the murder was a Saudi domestic affair because it was on Saudi sovereign territory and involved a Saudi national. However if they were intending eventually to dispose of the body in Turkey (outside the embassy) that would certainly involve serious crimes in Turkey and therefore would not be a domestic Saudi affair.

I think we should be sceptical about the allegedly found body until things are a bit clearer. At present it is heresay, as far as I am concerned. Wait and see whether it is confirmed or not.

Posted by: BM | Oct 23 2018 16:15 utc | 150

With the Khashoggi trap, Erdogan my well have been looking to take control of MBS rather than destroy him. Magnier seems to believe its over now, with Haspel in Turkey and a call from MBS before the speech, and MBS will stay. Erdogan is still holding the axe over MBS's head in demanding Saudi's publicly confess to premeditated murder.
The anti Trump faction are still pushing hard, Pence taking the lead in the US, and UK media possibly creating their own leaks to keep the story going.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 23 2018 16:18 utc | 151

@ bm Posted by: bm | Oct 22, 2018 3:01:01 PM | 50

It seems I have a double stalking me! If you don't mind, could you please use a different moniker to avoid confusion with me?


Posted by: BM | Oct 23 2018 16:26 utc | 152

The Idlib deal, with Syrian government coming on board and saying Turkey was doing its best around the time of the Khashoggi killing, I think is a big part of this. Also, according to news, Turkey US starting joint patrols in Manjib in a few days. More pressure on the Kurd US partnership in Syria if this proves true.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 23 2018 16:28 utc | 153


Interesting article, thanks for the link.

It looks like the West (Globalists) made the same mistake with MbS that they made with Putin in 2000, thinking that he was somebody that they could control for their own benefit.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Oct 23 2018 16:45 utc | 154

MbS's insulation from this affair continues to be thickened. Obama wasn't prosecuted for his murder of the Alwakis, nor will MbS for the murder of Khashoggi, although for different reasons. Geopolitical dynamics will shift somewhat, but not as much as in the aftermath of the Il-20 shootdown. The biggest possible blunder would be an Outlaw US Empire invasion of Saudi to affect regime change. What's most interesting to watch is what appears to be a dance of reconciliation between Trump and Erdogan and the rather overt Zionist efforts to further insulate MbS. Otherwise, the escalating declared undeclared war between the Outlaw US Empire and Russia/China ought to become the new focal point as Trump declares the end of the INF Treaty while Bolton visits Moscow.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 23 2018 16:46 utc | 155

Russian humour on RT website
"CIA Director Gina Haspel reportedly traveled to Istanbul on Monday night to assist the investigation, according to a Reuters source."

Posted by: Mina | Oct 23 2018 16:54 utc | 156

Uber-conspirological approach.

1) Team Trump is at fight with Team Clinton-Soros, some say it is Cold Civil War, and not entirely domestic
2) Team Clinton-Soros is allied with Wahhabi terrorists
3) Saudi is the most overt and direct sponsor of Wahhabi terorirsts, though also Qatar and other Guklf monarchies
4) When Trump got from Saudi promises for few $bln weaponry purchase - while Saudi are in financial crisis after few years of dropped in 2014 oil/gas prices - it was a hidden contributions (just like economic colonies today are no more officially colonies) to USA industries (military ones - and what else industries US still has?)
5) The way he and his family dressed during their visit to Saudia was very distinct from they way they were dressed meeting Pope. Allegedly demonstrating who is the boss in a way.
6) He also then could lay demand to distance from terrorists. That could be a factor of the recent pruges in Saudia, of course destroying rivals and looting, but with pretext "we just executing Washington's orders"
7) Khashoggi was vocal proponent of "old elites" and also worked in pro-Clintons pro-ISIS MSM
8) It would be normal for Saudi - if they succumbed to the alleged Trump's demands - to capture and silence such annoyance as Khashoggi - both for "distancing from terrorists" and removing own enemies under pretext.
9) It would be equally normal for the "underdog" to "help" the operation went off the rails, thus harming both Trump and the "appease Trump" faction in Saudia and forcing them to severe all ties

Posted by: Arioch | Oct 23 2018 17:08 utc | 157

‘b’ “We humans care way more for a single persons we know, than for a mass of people we have no relations with”. I agree with that. one man’s death can generate more interest than the deaths of many others, I am reminded of that excellent film from the 1950’s ‘Ace in the hole’ when Charles Tatum [Kirk Douglas] said this to his young colleague..
Herbie Cook: Like the faces of those folks you see outside a coal mine with maybe 84 men trapped inside.
Charles Tatum: One man’s better than 84. Didn’t they teach you that?
Herbie Cook: Teach me what?
Charles Tatum: Human interest. You pick up the paper, you read about 84 men or 284, or a million men, like in a Chinese famine. You read it, but it doesn’t stay with you. One man’s different, you want to know all about him. That’s human interest.
One other quote from that film ‘b’ you may take an interest in ... “I can handle big news and little news. And if there's no news, I'll go out and bite a dog”.

Posted by: Harry Law | Oct 23 2018 19:07 utc | 158

Arioch 161 -

pretty good.

But there is one key point that everyone is missing:

This is a "Watergate" style operation. That is, if anyone remembers Watergate, Nixon was blamed for the break-in and eventually impeached over the cover-up. But the operation was led by a rogue faction, not loyal to Nixon, seeking his demise. They kept breaking into places in the most incompetent manner until they finally got caught. Nixon, in this case, was not the criminal but the clueless victim. Woodward was not the heroic reporter, but rather, Naval Intelligence playing the same role as the corporate media today in keeping the pot boiling. And guess who really masterminded that psy-op!

In the same way, the faction that pulled this off, whatever it may be, as the soap opera like details are far more lurid than the evidence, is not loyal to MBS (who has been talking far too much to Putin), but to the Soros/Clinton/Whahabbi faction. Truly, thay are the gang who cant shoot straight. Dumping the head in a well on the grounds of the embassy? Abandoning the car? I'm surprised they didn't find the 15 passports and plans in English in the car. What, there are no chop shops in Istambulshit? I have friends, amateurs, who can make an entire car disappear in under two hours, as if it never existed. And make a profit parting it out while doing so.

The media circus tells us that this is a psy-op run by the same faction who run the Western media, as named above. The details are obvious tells. And the fact that the body double wasn't wearing the correct shoes. Shoes are always a sign of a psy-op in motion.

Anytime you feel the media whipping up your emotions, beware! I'm surprised how many usually reliable analysts have been taken in by this. And as a follower of geo-politics, always go back after an event has settled out and see who was right and who was wrong.

Remember the "Turks" downed the Russian plane and then shot the Russian ambassador in public? And half the so-called enlightened non-corporate media was baying for Russian revenge? Yet Putin calmly swayed Turkey and Erdogan into an alliance. Rogue factions, my friend, rogue factions... Psy-Ops seeking to undermine alliances. If you want to be an analyst, be careful. The surface of the sea does not reveal the deadly jagged rocks beneath. Go back to those two Turkish events to see who you can trust.

Posted by: Cynic of all cynics | Oct 24 2018 7:07 utc | 159

Great comment "Cynic of all cynics".

However I think all of this is first and foremost an attempt to create as much noise as possible. If that isn't the case then they are spectacularly unsuccessful unless they deliberately want everyone to gravitate towards Russia, China, etc.

They're throwing anything they can think of into the noise machines. No different than Skripal or Malaysian airliners or withdrawing from nuclear treaties or flipping the narrative on North Korea back and forth until the light-bulb pops.

I interpret it as panic. I think they're becoming increasingly or perhaps fully aware that they've got nothing but illusions and a nasty demise at their own hands. Nothing can save them from themselves.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 24 2018 7:53 utc | 160

Actually, if the WaPo article about Kashoggi joining a growing Saudi ex-pat community in Istanbul is correct, that may have been "treason" enough to outrage MBS when he refused to back down and return to KSA. Kashoggi had decided to decamp the USA for this ex-pat community which I assume is growing in size and power ($$$) as MBS's reign evolves unpredictably and vindictively.

KSA wants to turn the entire Muslim world Wahabbi; Erdogan wants (AFAICT) to restore the lost clout and dignity of the Ottoman empire (I'm not certain how central smiting the Shiia is in this equation, but it's central to KSA).

As KSA devolves (think Egypt under Sisi) into a state nobody would choose to live in due to bad and quixotic "leadership" (where you can't buy your way out of trouble) and whose sense of justice looks too much like ISIS under a bad moon, MBS's failures and overreach become an embarrassment, even a humiliation.

I think Kashoggi brought Erdogan and the Turkish ex-pat community enormous prestige ... not some flea-bitten academic or human-rights legal eagle ... and a vast rolodex. For that reasons I doubt Erdogan was a witting "confederate" to the plot. It was all about a piece of paper, that was supposed to have been ready for pickup on Friday .... delayed to Monday. It wasn't as if Kashoggi were attempting to live incognito or militantly go underground. Yes, I think MBS may be that unstable and that indulged.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 24 2018 18:16 utc | 161

A Saudi journalist is butchered, viral coverage only because he's a journalist, and police are gu.nned down, viral coverage, meanwhile, a U.S. Saw-di-made famine/gen.ocide is on the brink of d.ecimating Yemen...STILL no coverage and NO HELP.

Unfortunately the Yemeni are trapped in the Zionist geo-political black-out zone. This is why Zionism is a scourge on humanity.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 28 2018 16:21 utc | 162

We are becoming usefull idiots to neocon games. Bob Corker anyones standard of a moral
man? The more I read on this affair, the more disguisted I become. MbS became Crown
Prince only in June 2017! And his father the King in 2015! And when he became King,
the Council appointed Criwn Prince Muqrin was not to US taste, and an absolute favorite,,
Muhammed bin Nayaf appointed and in those two years, neocon heaven on earth became
reality under Obama administratikn. Sunni Salafist movements exploded in the Middle East,
and what started under Hillary, the transit of weapons into Syria — became all too known
freedom fighters with penchant for head chopping. And when the cornucopia of Islamic
groups became too unwiedy, ISIS showed up to swallow Iraq, and started overwhelming
Syrian Army. All the work Hillary started with Libya — now with our man in Crown Prince
position, all systems were go. Yet, all the neocon land now talks sbout is how MbS was
Defence Minister and all his fault. Yet anytime he tried to interfere, he was ridiculed,
and message sent far and wide that he is not the one to do business with. I know oc at
least two examples. In fact, the power of such iinfkrmal armies was taking over Middle East,
and US did nothing but to give bad intelligence to Iraq — and as a result, major cities fell
to ISIS and thousands of soldiers died. Russia went into Syria to stop the threat that
unchecked would have spread quickly further. Yet, all if this plus Yemen was going on —
no problem. To Corker Russia was problem.
M BS CROWN PRINCE. Just over a year ago. Since then, cut Wahhabi power, cut
money to Salafi movements, many groups went to Turkey fior profecttion, while West
sponsored White Helmets stick with Al-Qaeda. Internal shake ups dislodged many
Nayaf supporters, including Murdock buddy coinvestor in News Corps, And now, just
one year into calming Qartar crisis, and social and economic reforms, he is a pariah?
And what is causing starvation in Yemen? We are. We have instituted blockade
of Hideidah in the name of Iran menace! But MbS was not trusted because of what
he did, even though he religiously repeated Iran mantra. And to punish him, UAE was
given South Yemen from Aden to Oman border. With US mercenaries killing pro Saudi
leaders. Saudi Arabia caused a llots of harm — and many would like to see it get its
deserts. But we should see this for what it is — not be Cirker’s useful idiots.

Posted by: Bianca | Oct 30 2018 15:42 utc | 163

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