Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 25, 2018

Khashoggi Drama - A Deal Has Been Made But Will It Hold?

A preliminary deal has been made between the Turkish president Erdogan and the al-Saud clan in Saudi Arabia. The case of Jamal Khashoggi, killed in Istanbul by bodyguards of the Saudi clown prince Mohammad bin Salman, will be closed for now.

Over the last 36 hours, since Erdogan's speech proved Saudi culpability, there have been no more damaging leaks about the case from the usual Turkish sources.

During a podium discussion at yesterday's investor conference in Riyadh Mohammad bin Salman denounced the “heinous crime” committed against Jamal Khashoggi. He praised the "unbreakable relations" with Turkey and lauded Qatar's economic durability.

The comments came after a phone call between MbS and Erdogan.

The negotiations proved to be difficult. The Saudi King sent the governor of Mecca and Medina to make a deal:

Prince Khalid al-Faisal returned home from Ankara with a bleak message for the royal family. “It is really difficult to get out of this one,” Prince Khalid told relatives after his return, one of those family members recalled this week. “He was really disturbed by it.”

Early rumors spoke of a Saudi offer of $5 billion to burry the case. That was not enough.

On Monday the NYT reported that Erdogan denied that he would make any deal of that kind:

Mr. Erdogan, the person close to him said, recounted that a Saudi envoy, Prince Khaled bin Faisal, had offered a package of inducements for Turkey to drop the case — including financial aid and investments to help Turkey’s struggling economy, and an end to a Saudi embargo on Qatar, a Turkish ally. Mr. Erdogan has told associates that he angrily rejected the offer as “a political bribe,” this person said.

Erdogan's current source of money is Qatar, which is under blockade by Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Ending the crisis over Qatar was only one condition he set out to the Saudis. There are other issue related to Syria and more generally the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Turkish side still has the leverage needed to 'adjust' any deal and to guarantee that the Saudis stick to it. The tapes of the Khashoggi murder, audio and video, have not been published. The former British ambassador Craig Murray reports:

I have not seen the video from inside the consulate, but have been shown stills which may be from a video. The most important thing to say is that they are not from a fixed position camera and appear at first sight consistent with the idea they are taken by a device brought in by the victim. I was only shown them briefly. I have not heard the audio recording.

If the Saudis try to cheat away from the deal the photos and audio tapes could still be released. They allegedly prove that MbS himself was very much involved in the killing.

The U.S. gave the final push for a deal to fall into place. The CIA's torturer in chief Gina Haspel was sent to show Erdogan her instruments.  Murray writes:

Haspel’s brief was very simple. She took with her intercept intelligence that purportedly shows massive senior level corruption in the Istanbul Kanal project, and suggested that Erdogan may not find it a good idea if intelligence agencies started to make public all the information they hold.

Whether Erdogan held back in his speech yesterday as a result of Haspel’s intervention I do not know.

Haspel listened to the audio tape and found it 'compelling'.

More details of the deal:

Elijah J. Magnier @ejmalrai - 14:32 utc 24 Oct 2018
Details on #Khashoggi affair:
News coming out from #Turkey that President @RT_Erdogan is still hot on the affair, presenting a large list of demands to #SaudiArabia and the #USA, including compensation for the devaluation of the Turkish lira and support to #Qatar and #Egypt MB +

#Turkey has received Khaled al-Faysal 4 times and was agreed to invest $30 bn in the country. In addition, there are tens of Fethullah Gülen in #SaudiArabia that #Riyadh will have to "deal with" to please #Ankara.

Prince Turki bin Faisal, who was head of Saudi intelligence and Khashoggi's sponsor, says that the family will stick to MbS no matter what. He claims that the royal subjects in Saudi Arabia support their ruler. Other reports from Saudi Arabia let me doubt that claim even as the reintroduction of a the yearly bonus to Saudi state employees may have calmed some people down.

Today the Khashoggi issue moved from the frontpages of U.S. media. The amateurish bombs sent to several Democrat politicians yesterday have turned the news cycle towards a new issue. Is this just by chance?

Erdogan still would like Mohammad bin Salman to be kicked away from the throne. U.S. pressure may have prevented that for now, but MbS has been cut to size. Congress will request a briefing by Haspel and the cintents of the audio may leak. It will continue to press the issue and, hopefully, end U.S. support for the horrible war on Yemen the Saudis and the UAE are waging with extensive British and U.S. help.

Turkey will also have made demands towards the United States. Erdogan wants the U.S. to end the protection of Kurdish forces in Syria. Rebels supported by Turkey recently attacked a U.S. outpost in Manbij. The clash was soon over with no casualties but it demonstrates that the conflict is still simmering. What carrots did the White House offer him?

It is likely that there is a deal and it may even hold. We will have to wait for more leaks to learn more of its details.

But the strategic issues that were brought to light over the Khashoggi case have not vanished. MbS is unreliable and a danger for U.S. interest. He will want some revenge for the damage Erdogan caused to him. He will wait for a chance to hit back.

Posted by b on October 25, 2018 at 7:27 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

Peter AU 1 | Oct 25, 2018 5:20:50 AM | 6
“Trump is legally the US president, he is CIC of US military and has ninety days to do as he pleases if he decides to use the military”.
This 90 days time in the war power act is an arbitrary meaningless arrangement. US presidency is autocratic and unrestrained with wars, this is a BS US law to keep people shout up. Don’t believe in this BS, can anybody believe the Congress act against, or restrain or impeach a seating president just because he started a BS, war? Have you heard of the term they use a“War president” what do you think they mean by that, it means he is untouchable no matter if he started the war on fake, lies or massaged facts or not, no matter is he is loosing or wining the war they will not restrain him.

Posted by: Kooshy | Oct 26 2018 0:19 utc | 101

Uncle Tungsten @ 94, Anton Worter @ 100:

The remark @ 61 does not look as if it comes from the person we know as James. James did say there has been a troll here at MoA using his name.

The troll who made that remark must be aware of the rumour floating around on the Internet that the Saudi royal family and the founder of Wahhabishm (Mohammad ibn Wahhab) supposedly descended from people who were followers of a self-styled messiah known as Sabbatai Zevi operating in Sefardi Jewish communities in the Ottoman empire during the 17th century. His sect became too much for the leaders of these communities to handle and they turned him over to Ottoman authorities who gave him the choice of conversion to Islam or death. He and his followers converted to Islam and they became known as Dönmeh.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 26 2018 0:30 utc | 102

@103 Jen, this theory needs some exploring and exposure if serious. Are there any documents linking Zevi followers to Al Wahhab? I thought Donmeh was a term for crypto jews from the Causasus or Kuban steppes (descendants of Khazars and Kabars) during the Ottoman days..

Posted by: Lozion | Oct 26 2018 0:47 utc | 103

@ 99: IMO DJT is going no where except to a second term. He's just the latest, in a long line of mouth pieces for the ultra-rich. And, this latest diversion with Mr. K, is all just dust in the air..

Posted by: ben | Oct 26 2018 1:29 utc | 104

Jen 2 103 said:"The remark @ 61 does not look as if it comes from the person we know as James. James did say there has been a troll here at MoA using his name."

Perceptive Jen, thought the same. Glad you expressed it..

Posted by: ben | Oct 26 2018 1:32 utc | 105

@107 Not getting a NATO base in Sevastopol must drive you crazy.

Posted by: dh | Oct 26 2018 2:16 utc | 106

@103 Jen and others

Agree that the comment at #61 was not james. The comment had all the cadence of one charles drake. He used to delight in bashing james. Sometimes people use other people's handles. Despicable practice.

Posted by: Grieved | Oct 26 2018 2:50 utc | 107

Putin talked with King Salman not MbS--NOT an honest mistake on your part! Ciao!
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 25, 2018 4:52:51 PM | 71

Plus 'Moscow Times' is a CIA/State Dept Fake News outfit.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 26 2018 2:52 utc | 108

cs @ 107: No free passes, but maybe, the benefit of doubt, considering the state global affairs. I don't know any perfect leaders. Do you? How many reporters have been shot, or gone missing while covering illegal wars driven by the U$A. Too many to mention.

You mention Crimea, have you ever perused the crimes of the empire you seem to love?

How many nations has Russia or China illegally invaded lately?

It's a beggars belief, that powerful countries never do illicit things when they are surrounded by forces who's only desire is to enrich themselves by suppressing and intimidating other nations.

THAT, my friend, is the sordid history of American empire, and to deny that, would be to deny reality.

Posted by: ben | Oct 26 2018 3:15 utc | 109

Press freedom index. someone, I forget who, wanted to see it.

U$A @ 45

Russia @ 148

Posted by: ben | Oct 26 2018 3:29 utc | 110

The Russians just went through 70 years of Marxism and then at the end of that era western capitalism moved in and attempted to strip the country blind. Do not expect much from the Russians for a few generations. They are in a heated confrontation with the West which could go away in an instant if the West got off its back for a few moments.

All this anti Russian blather is just more fuel for the fire for the mushroom clouds. When will the West and Russia cut a deal to end this madness? Never, the West wants it all or nothing. Anytime the media pushes this type of repetitive sycophantic tale of good cop bad cop hold onto your hats; war is coming

Posted by: dltravers | Oct 26 2018 3:45 utc | 111


“Mustafa Tawran states that; Muhammad Bin 'Abd-al-Wahab is a descent of a family from the Jews of AI-Dunamah in Turkey. Al-Dunmah refers to the Jews who declared their embracement of Islam in an effort to insult Islam and to escape the pursuit by the Ottoman sultans. Subsequently; Tawran confinns that Sulayman; the grandfather ofthe sheikh, is (Shulman); he is Jew from the merchants ofthe city ofBurstah in Turkey, he had left it and settled in Damascus, grew his beard, and wore the Muslim turban, but was thrown out for being
voodoo. Then he fled to Egypt and he faced by strong objection so; he left to Hijaz and settled in Al-'Ayniyyah where he got married and had child whom he called 'Abd-al-Wahab and claimed to be from the descent of Rabi'iyyah, and that he was born in Morocco. This has also been supported by sheikh Rifat Salim Kabar in his book, the Jews of Al-Dunmah and the Origin of the Saudi Wahabis” •

Posted by: Pft | Oct 26 2018 4:35 utc | 112

Lozion @ 104:

Here is a link to an English-language translation of a report made by Iraqi intelligence for former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein that links the supposed origins of Wahhabism with the Dönmeh.

The original Arabic-language report later fell into the hands of US military intelligence who translated it.

The explosive aspect of the report is that it links the supposed origins of Wahhabism to British imperialist attempts to weaken Islam and the Ottoman empire by creating a sect that would rouse Arab opposition to the Ottomans and help to overthrow them. Among other things this would pave the way for a Jewish state to be established in Palestine. The British hoped to use this Jewish state as its eyes and ears in the Middle East to maintain its communications and trade links with its Indian subcontinent colony. The Saudi royal family is claimed to be Jewish in its origins.

The Strategic Culture article makes for some quite intriguing reading.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 26 2018 4:51 utc | 113


There is a "craigsummers" that has posted at The Intercept for a very long time. That "craigsummers" is known as hasbara by The Intercept commenters.

This may be a different craigsummers here. But his post @107 should clue you in.

Thought you would want to be forewarned before you waste too much time responding to him.

Posted by: librul | Oct 26 2018 5:03 utc | 114


In support of your comment, General Smidley Butler pointed out that “War is a Racket” and some other posters are in on, or bought the racket. As of 2017 America has been at peace for only 21 year. This list leaves out various covert CIA operations and other acts which could be considered war.

Furthermore, US Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II, which makes America the number one threat to world peace.

I could write several books correcting comment #107 if I had the time. I will, therefore, limit the discussion to the MH-17 shoot-down.

It seems that the MH17 "international" investigators only have rudimentary puzzle solving skills necessary to figure out how the parts fit together. From what I have read many of the critical parts were even left back at the crash site to ensure failure of the investigation. This shoddy work is typical of what I dealt with in International Beryllium Conferences with the US National OSHA laboratory (as well as all other laboratories) that didn’t understand how to statistically collect a sample, prepare the sample properly, do proper ICP-OES analysis with peak deconvolution and conduct proper statistical analysis of the results.

Likewise the Dutch team made no attempt to employ standard material science techniques to determine the composition and providence of the projectiles and the residue left by penetrations on the airframe. They only used crude energy dispersive XRF techniques on a limited number of samples. These Dutch idiots should have contacted a decent laboratory to conduct initial WD-XRF analysis and follow up with Argon sputtering Glow Discharge Mass Spectrometry (GDMS). The use of a magnetic sector on the ICP-MS system would allow researchers to identify the source and even batch of the munitions based on isotopic abundance ratios. Argon sputtering GDMS also allows the projectile metal “smear” on the point of penetration to be tunneled the metal similar to laser ablation techniques pioneered by the Battelle PNNL Advanced Analytical Chemistry Group.

It is obvious that the Dutch team, including a Ukrainian component, was chosen so proper forensic metal analysis would not be done. Those who actually read the MH-17 report would realize that it was a cover-up to avoid the potential of blaming the shoot-down on the Ukrainians who actually had several BUK missile batteries in the area along with their radar system trucks. The DPR forces only had a single launcher and no radar truck to guide the missile and no time to lock onto the “target”. We don’t even know if the shoot-down was done by a BUK missile. Furthermore, none of the projectile holes match a BUK bowtie sub-munition while lots of ROUND holes in the airframe match 23 and 30 mm air-to-air cannon fire.

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 26 2018 5:07 utc | 115

b...... someone again spoofs me @61... i never talk about the content this bozo repeats, as they did in the previous thread where they did the same...

than you jen, ben and grieved for recognizing this too.. obviously it is someone annoyed by my comments here at moa.... i can think of a few posters.... interesting to me is seeing who responds directly to the post @61 and want to engage in something b has said is off limits... oh welll... just getting going here this morning in croatia... cheers and thanks!

Posted by: james | Oct 26 2018 6:09 utc | 116

Krollchem 117

In the months after MH17, I was able to download a close up, high definition photo of the left hand cockpit panel that was thought to have been hit by cannon fire. It could be seen that there were two layers of aluminium and Whe the projectiles struck these two layers exploded apart with the outer skin peeling outwards and the inner skin peeling inwards. These sections that have literally exploded have created a somewhat round hole. In some places the outer skin is missing completely. There appears to be two sizes of projectiles with the smaller ones not causing the skins to explode and the angled entrance hole is clearly seen. Also in the thicker aluminium around the windows the angled entrance holes can be seen.
I spent a lot of time collecting all the photos I could find in the highest definition possible. There was one very good photo though not particularly high definition of the cockpit section finally being lifted. The impact angle and spread could clearly be seen on what was the left hand side of the cabin roof. The right hand side of the cockpit was unmarked by projectiles. The point I believed all the projectiles had originated from was further out but at the exact angle from the aircraft as where Almaz Antey set up the BUK warhead when testing the blast pattern on an old passenger jet.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 26 2018 6:21 utc | 117

Posted by: b | Oct 25, 2018 12:39:11 PM | 41
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 25, 2018 1:09:41 PM | 44

It rhymes with what the prince says in that cocain addict video.

It certainly could mean that Saudi Arabia has lost US protection. It probably means that Erdogan counts on the cooperation of Saudi proxies in Idlib - against the Kurd supporting US.

But Erdogan's adviser tweeting does not mean Erdogan saying it.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 26 2018 9:40 utc | 118

@17 I mentioned U.K. polititions reiceving personal Saudi money while making policy decisions regarding Saudi Arabia legally or otherwise! I linked to one example.
I do feel we should be digging deep with this research, it’s been hardly touched on and must be controlling major decisions costing thousands of life’s (Yemen)
——- eny way here’s an a excellent short interview with a few further examples !!
Come on you yanks !! get digging !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 26 2018 10:50 utc | 119


There probably are 100 million james in the world. This guy may be spoofing you but given the fact that there is no way to enforce user name uniqueness here perhaps you can try a name like “real james” . FWIW i knew right off it wasnt you, as others have, so I wouldnt bother. If some newbie calls you out just explain.

Posted by: Pft | Oct 26 2018 11:14 utc | 120

A couple of disparate points...

ben | Oct 25, 2018 11:29:06 PM | 110

A major consideration of the RSF (reporters san frontières) evaluation is the first amendment to the United States constitution, guaranteeing freedom of the press (today, read in an extended interpretation as freedom of expression), which has, for the most part, been steadfastly defended by the courts.

However, the vast majortiy of media outlets are owned by, or are outright, huge commercial enterprises, part and parcel of the corporatocracy. Their financial power (remember, money is power!) enables them to do pretty much what they want, which reinforces the idea of freedom of expression. But, being inextricably entwined in the corporatocracy, they faithfully tow the party line. Hence government interference -- which is the touchstone for RSF -- is rare because unnecessary. These media assiduously practice self-censorship.

When the United States Congress was holding hearings about the use of social media to purvey "fake news", the CEOs of the big social media networks were taken to task by senators for not towing the party line and censoring. In orther words, the United States Congress was criticizing the commercial/private sector for enabling freedom of expression, for it is the commercial/private sector that can, and therefore is expected to, practice censorship, with impunity, alleviating the government of this task and thus promoting the illusion of freedom of expression.

So, how much freedom of expression (of the press) is there actually in the United States, where the overwhemling majority of people get their news/information from corporate media outlets that self-cersor according to the needs and interests of the corporatacray?

For some background and perspective, I recommend a recent article from Consortium News: "Facebook Censorship of Alternative Media ‘Just the Beginning,’ Warns Top Neocon Insider" (, which deals in some detail with this matter, of great importance now that social media have become a major source of news/information for the populace.

My last post was number 69, and, as of right now, it is still designated "69". However, somewhere since then, the numbers seem to have been altered.

Jen | Oct 25, 2018 8:30:48 PM | 102 says : "The remark @ 61 does not look as if it comes from the person we know as James." However, number 61 is: ": Cynic of all cynics | Oct 25, 2018 2:53:31 PM | 61".

I see "james" at 10, 11, 28, 28, 51, 58 then nothing more until 116, where "james" acknowledges that the post Jen is referring to is not from him although bearing his name.

If this post has been deleted and the subsequent one dropped back into it slot, why is mine still number 69?

Also, on page 2, Lozion | Oct 25, 2018 8:47:12 PM | 103 writes: "@103 Jen, this theory needs some exploring and exposure if serious."

And dh | Oct 25, 2018 10:16:19 PM | 106, in reference to a post at @107 says, "Not getting a NATO base in Sevastopol must drive you crazy." Yet this post @107 did not exist when (s)he posted.

How does this work? Is there something I am missing here that should be obvious to me?

The confusion of the numbering makes it difficult to follow the discussion when one is asked to refer back to earlier posts. Otherwise, my only gripe is that too few posters seem to use the "preview" to good effect.

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 26 2018 11:32 utc | 121

@122/113 Txs for the links. I didnt see the Dunamah connection to Zevi followers though, but its not much of a stretch.
So Ataturk is also Dönmeh. Isnt that convenient. Turkic Khazars went to Ukraine after the fall of Sarkel, their cousins the Kabars went to Hungary and their brethren later founded the Wahhabi/Saudi clan. No wonder Jihadists never threaten Israel.
No wonder KSA couldnt care less about Palestine or Yemen. Usurpers..

Posted by: Lozion | Oct 26 2018 12:32 utc | 122

@ Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 26, 2018 7:32:51 AM | 123

You noted:

"The confusion of the numbering makes it difficult to follow the discussion when one is asked to refer back to earlier posts."

I would suggest referencing the timestamp rather than the posting number.
Apparently b has to delete posts from people that do not follow the rules and these deletions cause numbers to shift.
Timestamps do not shift.

Posted by: librul | Oct 26 2018 13:18 utc | 123

All enemies of the Islamic Republic (part of the masonic project to control all of the world's faiths c.f. Zionism) bite the dust. "Allah Akbar!" (either that or thank you CENTCOM and City of London.)

Poor MsB. the "clown" prince. Remember the Shah of Iran when they show you the door and repent of you and your relatives saying "that Shah was gullible". Karma is a bitch.

Posted by: realist | Oct 26 2018 13:33 utc | 124

@120 pff.. thanks for the suggestion.. i will pass for now..... bottom line is i never talk zionist, goy and words this person has used... but i think the thing to note is someonegot annoyed with me for calling them out, and.... they are hoping to get me banned, lol.... it occurred to me a few posters that for some reason aren’t posting at present might have an issue with me as well. i am not going to talk about this again, as it is a distraction....cheers james

Posted by: james | Oct 26 2018 14:04 utc | 125

A deal has been struck and not-so-coincidentally we are b...mb barded with a fake b.mb distraction. The outrage disappears. MbS returns to being the fake benevolent Saw-di ruler and the Zio-plan is rescued. KHASHOGGI WHO? MBS DID WHAT???

America is again moving in the right direction. ...Yahu!

Posted by: Circe | Oct 26 2018 14:13 utc | 126

@127 Maybe it contained a tr.igger word. It might return.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 26 2018 14:44 utc | 127

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 26, 2018 7:32:51 AM | 123
Posted by: librul | Oct 26, 2018 9:18:32 AM | 126

I agree concerning the problems referencing comments by number, as they often get renumbered. Some people just put "@ number" and then you have no idea who it references.

The easiest way is just to copy and paste the complete timestamp including the moniker: then if it has moved you can easily identify it, if it has been deleted you can know for sure it has been deleted. An additional advantage is that it sometimes helps to guess whether it is worth checking the comment or not.

In addition to the occasional deletions there are moderated comments which as far as I can see reserve a position in the sequence when they are posted but not a number. When they are subsequently released by B the subsequent numbers change. Thus sometimes you see a certain sequence of posts early on, and later other posts suddenly appear in the middle of them. My taking is that this is a more common reason for the renumbering.

Posted by: BM | Oct 26 2018 14:59 utc | 128

erdo saying today that ksa cheif prosecutor to arrive in tuekey on sunday... erdo continues to ask the tough questions... where is the body and etc, while demanding the 18 be brought to turkey... what i get from reading daily sabah and hurriyet news...

Posted by: james | Oct 26 2018 15:00 utc | 129

arab news out of ksa has a nice pr article on the clown prince who is going to reform the saudi intel services... the reform is this... hey guys, you did such a botch up job for me with kashoggi, i have to chanfe it up here.. and you know, none of this can come back and reflect on my non authority authority, lol...

Posted by: james | Oct 26 2018 15:06 utc | 130

So Kashoggi's own Apple Watch Recording Device produced the video of his own murder and it was all recorded just outside on the iPhone left in the car with his girl friend.
Posted by: snake | Oct 26, 2018 10:55:06 AM | 129

There is a big problem with this theory: if the alleged girlfriend was watching her boyfriend being murdered in real time, why did she wait 5 hours before raising the alarm? Or was she not really the girlfriend, just the Turkish intelligence agent responsible for controlling the patsy?

In any case, is there any reliable evidence that the story about the "fiancee" and "divorce papers" is really true?

As with the Skripal fairytale, since the whole Khashoggi saga is pushed unanimously and vigorously by the whole MSM we should be suspicious of every single detail that is not independently and reliably verified. All the details pushed by the MSM are no more than putative assertions - a few might be true, many will certainly not be. Which is which you can only form a valued and provisional judgement based on consistency, plausibility, cui bono, geopolitical considerations etc.

while demanding the 18 be brought to turkey
Posted by: james | Oct 26, 2018 11:00:45 AM | 131

Well, demanding the suspects be brought to Turkey for trial in Turkey can only be a propaganda gimmick for public consumption, nothing else. There could not legally be a trial in Turkey because Turkey has no legal jurisdiction over what happens inside the Saudi embassy - it is under Saudi law not Turkish law. There are precedents to this. If it was a murder, it was a murder under Saudi law. There can only legally be a trial in Saudi Arabia.

I see you have a problem with someone else using your moniker, James! I have the same problem, someone has made several posts recently with the moniker bm (not me, so far thankfully in lower case). Several people seem to have been complaining of that recently, is it a coincidence? It is something to be aware of.

Posted by: BM | Oct 26 2018 15:23 utc | 131

Have heard of that site before in a positive way. It,s on my radar now ! Thanks to you
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 26, 2018 11:12:13 AM | 133

I am skeptical of it has a lot of very dubious info. It might be a disinfo site. Same applies to . Just my opinion.

Posted by: BM | Oct 26 2018 15:28 utc | 132

on the topic of @130 BM’s comments... i always use number of post and author... it is more work to sdd the time stamp, but i agree it is more foolproof.. either that or copy and paste the content that one wants to reply to..

what happens is as you describe... a post will get deleted, like the @61 post i said was spoofing me, and so the numbers are different.. i have also had posts held back that don’t get released until much later.. that too throws a reference number off as well...most posters who have been here for a while know this, but is worth talking about, as ot as it might be... i use post number and name, but although better then just a name or number, it is not perfect... i am going for slight imperfection, lol...

Posted by: james | Oct 26 2018 15:30 utc | 133

I’m no historian. Yet, Echoes of the past, around 1964:

..--... The covert war in Yemen, 1962-70 ..--..

Against the irrelevances of popular, more democratic elements were set the important virtues of British Interests, in fact imperial policy. The big issue was retaining the military base at Aden. This was the cornerstone of British military policy in the Gulf region ..

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 26 2018 15:35 utc | 134

I have probably missed something but has Kashoggi's fiancé come forward with a public statement? Are the divorce papers and her behaviour waiting som long outside the embassy credible? I don't know, maybe you can tell me.

Posted by: Quentin | Oct 26 2018 15:42 utc | 135

BM @ 135
I take your general advice and whole heartily agree ! We need to be highly skeptal !
But a good article like this, the truth rings like a bell. Vareyfiable ! Confirmed by my own personal experience !
I give this my total support. It rises above any political side left or right. In short it is the best article and most important I have read here or else where ! Gen

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 26 2018 15:54 utc | 136

Peter AU 1@117

The Dutch team investigating MH-17 shoot-down claimed that the shoot-down was done using a BUK missile with bowtie shaped projectiles. I have collected over a hundred photos of the MH-17 wreckage and have not seen any bowtie shaped holes in the aircraft skin. An earlier version of the BUK missile contained rectangular projectiles but this possibility is not mentioned in the Dutch report. There is also the possibility of air-to-air missile attack on MH-17 as no one photographed or even saw a BUK missile launch smoke trail.

Further confusing the forensic analysis is that I saw lots of perfectly round penetration holes in the aircraft skin. Most show inward penetrations but some are outward penetrations. Furthermore, the pilot's body had projectile entrance holes in his back inconsistent with the angle of a BUK attack.

I was trying to show that the Dutch team was either not interested and certainly not competent to conduct the MH-17 investigation. Politically motivated investigations, such as the MH-17 have not progressed much from the Salem Witch trials.

For other readers on the living conditions in Crimea there are lots of third party videos that demonstrate that the people are not oppressed by being Russian. The same cannot be said about Pontic Greeks in Mariupol and Hungarians in Transcarpathia.

I hope this helps. "B": sorry about this digression from the topic.

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 26 2018 15:55 utc | 137

Trump has bet the farm on MbS, and if MbS goes his whole Middle East strategy is in shreds. (...)

(Others) .. definitely want to protect their overall relationship with Saudi Arabia at all costs, but would much prefer al Nayef if only they could get rid of MbS, as long as they can do so without endangering their long-term relationship with Saudi Arabia and the petrodollar. BM at 18.

Yes. Trump delegated to Kuchner the son-in-law to ‘fix’ the Isr./ Pal. imbroglio (making it *very* short ..) in favor of Isr. and just get it over with, ppl would be paid off, etc.

J. K. probably plotted with MBS and gave MBS info about traitors or other inside ‘briefs’ etc., what exacty is not known. After the palace coup shake-down organised by MBS (KSA princes / tangential royals / biz magnates / kidnapped, locked up, stripped of their assets, some tortured, and so on) J.K’s security clearance was withdrawn, the results were too dire in favor of MBS.

Trump had to re-think, but just like in Biz. the no. one person you meet, the CEO, who lays on lavish glowing orbs and splendid dinners, is the person you deal with. So that allegiance lasts for a while.

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 26 2018 16:09 utc | 138

Posted by: BM | Oct 26, 2018 11:28:53 AM | 135

BM, I have known the Voltaire Network (Réseau Voltaire) for some eighteen years, since the time when it was only in French (I am bilingual French-English). It is much less good now than it used to be, and I can only wonder what pressure Thierry Meyssan, who runs it, is succumbing to, for he is often far off the mark and assertive in a way that is unjustifiable.

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 26 2018 16:40 utc | 139

if the alleged girlfriend was watching her boyfriend being murdered in real time, why did she wait 5 hours before raising the alarm? Or was she not really the girlfriend, just the Turkish intelligence agent responsible for controlling the patsy?

Kashhoggi's is a grand love story in a day when sentimental and romantic love apparently barely exist.
Was the *real love* that escapes so many of us coming to this man? was marital bliss really to be his?
or was he at the gate of hell instead? She waited for him by the traffic circle, her alarm growing moment
by moment, as her fiance's limbs were sawed-off. Her heart must have broken in two, whether she were
an intelligence agency moll or not: someone who escaped a dungeon, by making her services available.
I feel sorry for this lonely woman, who probably believed that she would be living in a condo in Virginia.

Posted by: Guerrero | Oct 26 2018 16:47 utc | 140

Posted by: Quentin | Oct 26, 2018 11:42:45 AM | 139

Almost immediately (48 hours?) she wrote a statement in the NYT

Today more in the guardian
Guardian: Jamal Khashoggi was worried about consulate visit, says fiancee.

They were professional collaborators, there's no inidcation now long they had known each other and -- since he was officially married so I wouldn't make too much of that lack of romantic history

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 26 2018 16:48 utc | 141

[Saudi lobbying content deleted - b.]

Posted by: Bianca | Oct 26 2018 17:02 utc | 142

Kudos to B for these great articles on the Khashoggi debacle. Makes for very entertaining reading.

Posted by: Deschutes | Oct 26 2018 17:07 utc | 143

If Mohamed will not come to the mountain, then the mountain must come to Mohamed.
The American treasury secretary met MBS before Erdogan's anti-climactic speech. Khashoggi's son appeared, under sartorial protest, by royal command before the crown prince.
The body language does not matter. Mohamed owns the mountain. He will not fall off - for a long while yet.
Sorry, Mr B, this is what I maintained from the onset: MBS will stay. (Not that I am cheer-leading for him).
Robin Wright on New Yorker lays out the most plausible scenarios.
2. Gina Haspel dashed to Turkey to read Erdogan the riot act? It likely wasn't just to save MBS skin.
If the Turkman had blown the case apart with all the gory details, the self-serving US Congress - feet held to fire by the hell-raising media - will be forced to impose sanctions on the kingdom.
What retaliations will Saudi pull? It practically holds a nuclear option on global oil chain. Or it will make a sharp volte-face East?
Can there be a coalition of the willing to invade Islam's holy land, where Mecca and Medina are off-limits almost completely to `infidels', bearing in mind the resentment among Muslims generally ( and right-thinking people) over the Israel/Palestine issue, for one?
3. Imo, Erdogan partly held back from rolling out the whole nine yards about the bloody horror because he must be aware that tell-all won't win him many friends in the Muslim world.
Saudis have spent billions over decades cultivating support for its brand of Islam. It is the custodian of the holy shrines.
Erdogan only dreams - right now - about the revival of Islam's golden ages: the first began when the newly-Muslim Arabs, defeated at Talas in Central Asia by the Tang, expanded westward across the Maghreb and into the Iberian peninsula, stamping its influence on mankind in arts, sciences, astronomy, mathematics, etc.
It is to Erdogan's advantage - and his hope of neo-Ottoman glory - to settle the gory dispute in a fraternal way, as a `Muslim thing'.
MBS is framing it as such, talking up the Saudi-Turkish `iron' bond that cannot be sundered by others.
It will dial down slowly, when all parties have taken what they want -and can - from the death of one man.

Posted by: LittleWhiteCabbage | Oct 26 2018 17:15 utc | 144

RJPJR @ 121 said;"So, how much freedom of expression (of the press) is there actually in the United States, where the overwhemling majority of people get their news/information from corporate media outlets that self-cersor according to the needs and interests of the corporatacray?"

Exactly, that's why press freedom rankings must be taken in context. There is always cause and effect in play..

Posted by: ben | Oct 26 2018 17:27 utc | 145

P.S. Never understood why people change their posting names, seems kind'a disingenuous, and makes people suspicious of your motives.

Been here at this site 12 yrs., maybe a little longer, but, never felt the need to post under another handle.

As always b, thanks for the therapy...

Posted by: ben | Oct 26 2018 17:36 utc | 146

Bianca @ -45
What !!! Did I just read that right ? It read to me like a CIA news hand out ! I don’t know where to start !
A lengthy comment like that about Saudi Arabia , with more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese !
No mention of the west aided genicide in Yemen .
No mention of Saudi being used as the go between regarding US&UK funding Isis ect.
Clearly shining through is a tunnel vision view of the world, like US is the master race and the rest of the world and the people in it are your plaything.
Just no !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 26 2018 18:10 utc | 147

Garrie's musings over the geopolitical fallout of Khashoggi's murder, particularly the Turning to the East components, are useful despite his errors.

LittleWhiteCabbage @147--

I doubt there's anyone within the Outlaw US Empire's decision making apparat who would suggest using the same caution as GHW Bush did in 1990 when he formed the coalition for Desert Shield. Plus, there are already numerous Western military and paramilitary personnel within Saudi that endanger Saudi internal security. Your hypothesis about Haspel's mission is likely correct--to defuse Congress's appetite for sanctions.

What I'm most curious about is the King Salman/Putin phone conversation that was likely much deeper than this cursory review--why would the King need to "confirm his invitation" for Putin's upcoming Saudi visit, as somebody with a lower rank would perform that chore. While both China and Russia officially remained aloof about the scandal, they were both very busy conducting business with Saudi; Garrie's article provides some of that substance.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 26 2018 18:24 utc | 148

Meanwhile there’s been another suspicious package found, this one has been confirmed—-Russian origin —-

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 26 2018 18:27 utc | 149

@131 BM... that is true of the embassy, but it would seem as though, if some of this story is true, more happened then just in the saudi embassy in istanbul! and, so far we have it that kashoggi was murdered in a premeditated manner, and this is from ksa authorities, who just coincidentially had a hard time saying anything truthful up front... so i persnally beleive the rules around embassy jurisdiction and etc would not apply legally here..... but, i am no international law expert... a murder committed in an embassy is not a regular thing! i think erdo has good ground to stand on here legally...

Posted by: james | Oct 26 2018 19:37 utc | 150

Thanks for Garrie's musings (I know nothing about him or his bona fides). I have been thinking about the trifecta of the Saudi domination of American financial concerns (to the third degree involving other countries and pacts), the Saudi domination of the world's imagination of what "Muslims" and "jihadists" look like ... and the potential of KSA's cumulative disgrace (for decades, but particularly in the last few years under MBS's "dynamic" "reformist" leadership which was ... what? Deliberate lies (like Trump) of the unscrupulous willing to fleece the populous for a few years of 24/7 "popularity" or at least media coverage.

I have read that there are numerous other journalists and just "regular" members of the royal family under restriction (like Kashoggi's son -- WTF -- glad he's "free" or at least somewhere else.

I have also read that Kashoggi's murder was MEANT to be a (psychotic) warning ... and I think that's on tapes/phone intercept (before or after, I don't know).

Wikipedia says 1% of the world's muslims (the Ummah -- which also includes Shiia) are Wahabbi... how much of this tyranny is effectively in symbiosis with the USA ... how much "clout" on the world's stage does KSA claim based on being "best boy" (and immune from normal censure)?

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 26 2018 19:40 utc | 151

Two things:

@Greece #82 - Have Putin's calculations between Greece and Turkey changed since 2016? Not only has he been working closely with (the admittedly oily) Erdogan to stabilize Northern Syria; but have Greek/Russian relations cooled since the Greek Orthodox Patriarch (Constantinople) recognized a Ukrainian Orthodox Church separate from the Russian Orthodox Church?

Also, @ben & @RJPJR, how reliable are statistics from RSF? Is its lack of critical appraisal of corporate ownership or sponsorship of Western media a blind-spot or deliberate omission? Is its agenda shaped by the humanitarian regime-change-complex? MSF has been rumored to be an NGO-front for French intelligence. Are there similar allegations about RSF?

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Oct 26 2018 19:45 utc | 152

2pm seems to be your time of day to show up! might want to switch it up a bit....

Posted by: james | Oct 26 2018 19:45 utc | 153

Susan Sunflower @153--

The info pointing to Khashoggi's involvement with a group planning the basis for a Saudi Color Revolution which made him an Enemy of the Kingdom seems to no longer be part of the overall conversation when it ought to be central since that's why Khashoggi was on the list Kushner gave to MbS that launched the entire "reform" move and was the motive for his becoming reformed. IMO, Khashoggi's death wasn't to become public knowledge, thus there wasn't any "message" since nobody was supposed to know.

The weight Saudi has within the Umma is correlated to its willingness to lavish money within it. Since I don't read Arabic, it's difficult for me to provide a deeper answer. However, reading The Angry Arab to learn more I highly recommend. Also, machine translation of Arabic to English works well enough most of the time.

Ironically, the Muslim majority is Asian ethnically and don't wear Arab costumes.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 26 2018 20:50 utc | 154

Krollchem 137

My comment was only in relation to the reference to some holes possibly being caused by cannon fire. I have a number of reasons for leaning towards a Ukraine BUK missile being used to down MH17 but will not go into in this thread.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 26 2018 21:05 utc | 155

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 26, 2018 4:50:37 PM | 156:

... there wasn't any "message" since nobody was supposed to know.

Khashoggi would be missed. People would draw their own conclusions in light of others who have gone missing and Khashoggi's prominence as an MbS critic.

The Saudis would have tried to blame Turkey - perhaps citing Erdogan's own history of press crack downs. That might've fooled, or been sufficient cover for, those who have bought the depiction of MbS as a "reformer".

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 26 2018 22:15 utc | 156

Posted by: BM | Oct 26, 2018 11:23:44 AM | 131:

There could not legally be a trial in Turkey because Turkey has no legal jurisdiction over what happens inside the Saudi embassy - it is under Saudi law not Turkish law.
Entering a country under false pretenses is a crime in many (most?) countries. Turkey's case for illegal entry would be based on proving that the kill team entered the country to 1) murder Khashoggi and 2) use Turkey's territory to help to cover it up.

In the USA, "improper entry" includes obtaining entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or willful concealment of a material fact. Improper entry is a CRIME that can result in a fine or imprisonment.

First time offenders can get 6-months in jail and subsequent illegal entry could mean 2-years in jail. Those who illegally return to USA after being ejected for security reasons or having been convicted of a crime can be jailed for 10 years or 20 years, respectively.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 26 2018 22:46 utc | 157

@ Karloff -- who knows ... they didn't see the fiance on the cctv? or know that they planned to wed the following day ....

According to one of retellings of the phone conversation between MSB and Koshoggi, MSB demanded Koshoggi return to KSA -- now, on my plan -- and Koshoggi refused and was forthwith killed

I don't know about the rights of kings or MBS's drug use ... but I haven't seen any thumbs up.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 26 2018 23:48 utc | 158

Some day these Khashoggi comments are gonna end...

we’ll be talking about autonomous cars instead

And we'll look back and think:

Khashoggi! Khashoggi! Khashoggi!

Those were the days my friend

We thought they'd never end

Posted by: kilgore | Oct 27 2018 1:48 utc | 159

Sometimes you need to put a rabid dog down.

Posted by: Anunnaki | Oct 27 2018 2:42 utc | 160

@Greece #82 - Have Putin's calculations between Greece and Turkey changed since 2016? Not only has he been working closely with (the admittedly oily) Erdogan to stabilize Northern Syria; but have Greek/Russian relations cooled since the Greek Orthodox Patriarch (Constantinople) recognized a Ukrainian Orthodox Church separate from the Russian Orthodox Church?

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Oct 26, 2018 3:45:24 PM | 154

In Greece although the NATO/Mossad-ratlines-local-shipping-tycoons-oligarchs/Turkish oligarchs (yes it is that bad) owned press won't even touch a a polling of public oppinions about the Greek speaking/Turkish citizen of Constantinopolitan origin which is Archbishop Bartolomieu, which is realtively controlled by Turkey (cannot stress this enough). I cannot stress that enough. If Erdogan wanted, no Ukranian "schisms". RT's and Sputnik'ses are playing a mind game against all of their readers of any origins/countries for their oligarchs.

Although it seems local Archbishops starting to differentite their possitions towards Bartolomieu but, they have no juristiction power over the matter of Patriarchate choices. They fear that if they react Brtolomieu which is controlled will bgin a schism to Northern Greece Churces, which are autonomus from main Athens Archbishop but answer to Bartolomieu. It has been like that since the formation of the Greek state after the revolutions from the Ottoman yoke, since 1821. 20 years later and after majority of revolutionary leaders were either killed or jailed, City of London chief usurers brough in the starving country some tons of gold bars to be able to issue a state coin in order for the country to be indebted and take loans from them. Of course they brought in the Masonic lodges and pretty much dirrected any state officialship through this kind of conspiratoryal machine. They all worked in unison, French, Bavarians and the known Usurers, which are all related btw. Russian emperorship largely was somewhere out there in their own sphere of existence, not able to pnail down a strategic path for the next 100 years, like pretty much do now.
Rest is history.

Greece is not a state anymore, thanks to German styled EU driven philosophies, it is a sea mine waiting for an unsuspecting ship so the WWIII fuse is lit.
Be warned.

Posted by: Greece | Oct 27 2018 4:48 utc | 161

@156 karlof1. ... i like angry arab commentary too, but i only get it via his website i have bookmarked at home... not via twitter...

does someone have this jared kushner list that you reference on the topic of handing it to clown prince? that is just speculation, right?

the question for:me is, can a medival country co exist within our world at present? it seems to me it can’t.... this is the main reason ksa is going thru what it is.... of course, a medival religion that says chopping off dissidents heads or chopping off fingers or hands doesn’t seem very contemporary, or empathetic either... are we supposed to gravitate towards more barbarism, or perhaps something more friendly? i suppose i am an idealist.....

notice how i didn’t mention kashoggis name in any of it? i didn’t have to... this is what people want to know and why this topic is hot and will remain hot...

Posted by: james | Oct 27 2018 7:59 utc | 162

The fight for legitimacy is renewed. One would have thought the MB buried for good, but frankly speaking, between the MB's Islam and MbS' Wahhabism, there's a slight moral advantage to the former.
KSA wants to play in international finance without abiding with international laws (the US being the model and mentor). But Turkey -and its 60,000 prisoners- says no (and tries playing international vs local). Jubeir finds it "hysterical", which fits him well:
Saudi Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir has criticised the global outcry surrounding Khashoggi's killing as 'hysterical' and rejected Turkey's demand to extradite the suspects.

"The issue has become fairly hysterical," Jubeir said, adding that investigations take time and facts should be determined as inquiries continue.

He also brushed aside Turkey's request to extradite the 18 men suspected of being involved in the murder, saying that they will be tried in Saudi Arabia.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 27 2018 9:19 utc | 163

of course he would brush aside turkeys request.... don’t want ksa intl folks under the command of mbs saying anything sketchy on the clown...

Posted by: james | Oct 27 2018 10:54 utc | 164

IMO, Khashoggi's death wasn't to become public knowledge, thus there wasn't any "message" since nobody was supposed to know. - karlof1 @ 156.

Yes. It was a Saud-on-Saud murder on Saud territory. Who in the ‘West’ cares about or pays attention to such cases? Nobody.

Ex. 2016. Shaykh Nimr Baqir al-Nimr was a prominent Shia cleric in Saudi Arabia who was among 47 people executed on 2 January 2016 for terrorism offences. Others executed included Sunnis.. ..

from US friendly Wiki.

As for J. K. being missed, no. (> Jack R. at 158.) Many prominent ppl have been kidnapped / killed / shaken down (imprisonment, torture, rapine, etc.) by the KSA tops, none of them were publically ‘missed’ in the W media, beyond glancing mention. No. 1 on Goog, even the lousy BBC mentions:

kilgore. Those were the days song - original version, Mary Hopkins, 1968. Lyrics at link. Relevant to today, say...

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 27 2018 13:41 utc | 165

Putin is using the murder of Khashoggi to woo the Saudi leadership - and expand its influence in the greater Middle East. According to al-Jazeera (Jamal Khashoggi case: All the latest updates @AJENews

".......Russia said it believes Saudi royals were not involved in Khashoggi's murder after Russian President Vladimir Putin discussed the case with Saudi King Salman.

Dmitry Peskov, a Kremlin spokesman, called a journalist's question on whether Moscow fully believes that the royals had no part in the murder "inappropriate".

"There's an official statement from the king, there's an official statement from the crown prince and no one should have any grounds not to believe them," Peskov said during a conference call on Friday.

Putin spoke to King Salman by telephone on Thursday to discuss "the situation around the case of Khashoggi", according to a Kremlin statement.

In the wake of the Khashoggi controversy, a number of international leaders as well as prominent CEOs pulled out of an investment summit in Riyadh.

Al Jazeera's Step Vaessen, reporting from Moscow, said that a Russian delegation did attend the Future Investment Initiative.

"It has been said, that Russia might be taking advantage of the deteriorating relationship between Saudi Arabia and a lot of Western countries," she said........"

The murder of a journalist in Russia is business as usual for Putin. Russia has expanded her role in the greater Middle East protecting her interests in Syria as well as providing military assets in Libya. The Russian missile defense system (S-300, S-400) is in demand. Selling weapons is big business (especially for the US). Russia is expanding its influence. This is a key factor in driving the US response to the murder of Khashoggi. There will be no major changes in policy toard the Saudis by the US.

When the Obama administration threatened to cut off aid to Egypt after the bloody coup to oust the Muslim Brotherhood, al-Sissi went to visit Putin in Moscow (BBC News - Putin backs Sisi 'bid for Egypt presidency' The US released the aid to Egypt. It's that simple. Geopolitics takes priority over human rights.

Posted by: craigsummers | Oct 27 2018 14:01 utc | 166

@167 noirette..thanks for the bbc story.... why do you think the kashoggi event is different then?

Posted by: james | Oct 27 2018 14:10 utc | 167

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 27, 2018 9:41:25 AM | 167:

Many prominent ppl have been kidnapped / killed / shaken down (imprisonment, torture, rapine, etc.) by the KSA tops, none of them were publically ‘missed’ in the W media, beyond glancing mention.
AFAICT Khashoggi had a much higher profile than others that have gone misssing. He was a WSJ reporter that was friendly with Erdogan and had a following among Saudi critics. Even so, his disappearance my not have been headline news but the 'message' of his disappearance would be 'heard' by those who might be critical of the Saudi Kingdom.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 27 2018 14:52 utc | 168

Khashoggi who? MbS did what?

Jamal Khashoggi has been replaced by the convenient freak dupe Trump inspired, Caesar Sayoc.

How very convenient. MbS gets to rule with impunity another day now that the media is obsessing on this distraction.

Turkey wants to extradite the 15 suspects and MbS says no way mohamay! Naturally, the threat is that Turkey will get them to spill on MbS.

Where the C.IA goes, injustice follows.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 27 2018 15:31 utc | 169

I think we can say the Khashoggi affair has been safely buried.

There will be some kind of trial which will drag on for months.

Lindsey Graham has been quiet since his little outburst. The 'West' will soon get over its moral outrage.

Arms sales will continue.

Posted by: dh | Oct 27 2018 15:43 utc | 170


The website of DAWN (Democracy in Arab World Now) says it was established in January 2018 as a Delaware nonprofit and opened an office in Washington DC in May 2018. The internet domain "" was registered/created on 2018-05-26T19:00:45Z - 5 MONTHS LATER!? NYTimes reports on October 14th that Khashoggi "was trying to secure funding and set up a board when he disappeared".

Why did it take so long to get this organization set up? Still no Board after 9 months!? Presumably, he already had contacts with many people that would support such an organization (otherwise, why make the effort to establish it?) and he had a large number of contacts so putting together a first Board shouldn't have been too difficult. For example, there are plenty of activists from other pro-Democracy organizations that might join the Board of such an organization.

Interestingly, another organization with the same exact name was launched in 2011 by the Network of Arab-American Professionals (NAAP). AFAICT, the picture at their facebook site is from early in the "Syrian uprising".

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 27 2018 15:45 utc | 171

@172 dh.... i agree with you... debs said the same 4 days ago... i didn’t agree with him then!

there are a few other possibilities if things don’t go according to plan and life has a way of throwing surprises too..

Posted by: james | Oct 27 2018 16:23 utc | 172

@174've probably noticed I generally wait until the dust settles before I say anything definitive.

I see Erdogan had a chat with Trudeau. Not sure why but presumably he thinks Canada has some influence.

Posted by: dh | Oct 27 2018 16:29 utc | 173

There are several very small cameras like this one that could be disguised as a button on a jacket.

If it was a button in the jacket, this might also explain how the Turks knew that the Saudis had a look-alike walk around Istanbul dressed as Khashoggi.

These small wifi cameras send the video to a phone. That would've likely been the phone that the fiance was holding. Another app would be needed to stream the video to the Cloud. But that app may not have been necessary if the finance was trusted to bring the video to the Turk authorities.

Given that the video hasn't leaked, I think we can assume that only the fiance had access to the video and she gave the video to Turk authorities.

We can also surmise that the attack on Khashoggi was quick and unexpected. If Khashoggi had thought his life was in danger, he would've informed the attackers that he was recording them. The fact that the Saudis initially claimed that Khashoggi had left the Consulate (alive) shows that they didn't know that the killing had been recorded.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 27 2018 16:53 utc | 174

Macron and Merkel are "coordinating" international response

AFP: Macron, Merkel back Europe coordination on arms sales to Saudi Arabia.

Trudeau said days ago that per preexisting contract, Canadian Helicopters would be delivered to KSA on schedule.

I wonder what MBS threatened last summer.

I'm doubtful the "international ban on arms sales" is achievable -- particularly with people like Trudeau around, but Merkel and Macron are playing to their audiences.

I thought there were already laws on the books (Congress) prohibiting American arms sales to human rights violators.

Issues with Putin and China and Syria revolve around sovereignty and the "right" of a sovereign nation to defend itself (see also Israel and the Saudi pretext of a "proxy war" with Iran in Yemen which seems a faint wisp.) They are likely to stonewall particularly with the P.R. campaign wrt to the Ughurs ... with one belt/road (long predictedly) dependent on some sort of regional agreement wrt terror attacks on the billion-dollar projects(which could have -- unwelcome -- economic/social benefits to all -- namely jobs, jobs, jobs. The whole thing fits a template of disapproval of all efforts to rein in dissidents without actually suggesting an alternative, particularly advice from fairly homogenous countries with limited (if any) regional "unrest" much less violence.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 27 2018 16:58 utc | 175

@175 dh... not sure what erdo and trudeau had to share... trudeau is pretty boy wafer and not much else... a bit like macron in that regard...

@176 jr... good speculation.. you might be right..

@177 susan... the ksa arms sales was set up with our prior bimbo leader harper.. apparently he made it so itwould cost more to pulll out of then to keep and he had a whack of secrecy agreements attavhed to it so no one could talk about it publicly.... he is as close as we got to a neo con, usa, ksa type leader so far... trudeau is a teddy bear in comparison....people can generally walk all over him... cyrstia freeland, our own ukee nazi like 2nd in command is vying for pole position... no wonder soros likes her so much...

Posted by: james | Oct 27 2018 17:40 utc | 176

rovinj croatia is very beautiful btw...

Posted by: james | Oct 27 2018 17:42 utc | 177

The leaders of Turkey, Russia, France and Germany gathered in Istanbul on Saturday to discuss the peace settlement in Syria. They are set to exchange views regarding the situation on the ground and developments around the Idlib buffer zone, agreed by Russian leader Vladimir Putin and his Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan in September. Under the deal, all weapons and hardline anti-government militants were to be cleared from the area by mid-October. The parties are also expected to discuss the use of chemical weapons in the Syrian conflict.

RT: Four-nation Syria summit kicks off in Istanbul, leaders to discuss peace process.

(oh, I should add that Barak Obama also believed in the right of the "soveriegn" to target-assassinate multiple "citizens"... although I think Bush authorized a Lakawanna associate and several were claimed to be "accidents", the victims were not "targeted" Pablo Escobar I think was considered the "first" ... extralegal blow-em-up)

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 27 2018 18:10 utc | 178

@178 Macron has weaseled his way around the arms sales by saying they aren't related to Khashoggi. Merkel wants a temporary freeze on arms sale pending 'more information'.

Trudeau seems a little conflicted. He is pretty much stuck with a deal that Harper made which carries a big penalty clause. But he has legalized pot and he goes on gay-pride that must make him cool in some circles.

Posted by: dh | Oct 27 2018 21:16 utc | 179

This post from Whitney Webb, almost certainly shows the real reason that MbS has found himself on the wrong end of an MSM attack. He seems to have got cold feet about selling off all Saudi Assets to Rothschids, Rockefellers, Godman Sachs, Citigroup, Bank of America, HBSC. etc $6 Trillion in "benefits" lost for the Banks and a stay in execution for the dollar system?

Well worth a read.
Could also explain why Putin might see a chance to get MbS on his side, as MbS will probably be in danger from western Financial interests - the same that Russia is up against.

1/ "Though the media has long spun Vision 2030 as MBS' "ambitious" plan to wean the Saudi economy off its dependency on oil, the plan itself is actually a free-for-all for private interests and involves the neoliberalization of Saudi state-owned assets. Among its pillars are the opening of Saudi financial markets to Wall Street and the privatization of essentially everything in the Gulf Kingdom, including healthcare and, of course, Aramco."

2/ "with the entire privatization effort now in doubt, so too is the estimated $6 trillion in direct investments from powerful interests that had been planned to fund the privatization schemes that comprise the entirety of Vision 2030."

3/ "MBS has endangered other parts of the plan that these powerful financial interests had been counting on for well over a year. That includes Vision 2030's plan to increase the Saudi Public Investment Fund (PIF) - which is managed by a group of HSBC and Bank of America directors and a CitiGroup investment banking alumnus - from its current $230 billion in assets to a massive $2 trillion. The dramatic increase in the fund's size would make the PIF the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. Without that injection of cash into the PIF from the Aramco IPO, media reports have warned of a "ripple effect" on the U.S. economy, including massive U.S. tech companies like Uber, given that the PIF has invested heavily in such companies."

Posted by: stonebird | Oct 27 2018 21:19 utc | 180

The Guardian sinks even further by acting as a propaganda outlet for the Saudi regime.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Oct 27 2018 21:42 utc | 181

@183 I'm not sure the Guardian can be accused of 'acting as a propaganda outlet' in that case. They are basically reporting what Adel al-Jubeir said not endorsing it.

Posted by: dh | Oct 27 2018 21:52 utc | 182

Posted by: stonebird | Oct 27, 2018 5:19:16 PM | 182

It's doubtful that MBS withdrew the IPO voluntarily although as I recall it was presented as mysterious and unexplained (Saudi grown-ups in the room).

I have wondered if MBS' poplarity extend beyond his fellow princelings and other spoiled and untested wannabe "masters of the universe" ... iow, if anyone cares about the restless overeducated masses with their stipends and token jobs with no particular career potential.
I think it was the guardian but may instead/also been the WaPo who did a series a couple years ago about the rising rate of truly grinding poverty in KSA -- ah, both

guardian: Saudi Arabia's riches conceal a growing problem of poverty
In a country with vast oil wealth and lavish royalty, an estimated quarter of Saudis live below the poverty line(January 2013)

WAPO: In Saudi Arabia, unemployment and booming population drive growing poverty (December 2012).

My memory is that the grindingly poor were not "guest workers" and reflected another tier of Saudi society being underserved by their rulers.

Again, I don't know how many Saudis in the various strata saw the young twinkle-eyed MBS as a reason to hope but many Saudis have been listening to empty promises for decades afaict.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 27 2018 22:26 utc | 183

@ dh | Oct 27, 2018 5:16:18 PM | 181

Yes, the odious weasel Macron has piously denounced calls to withdraw from Saudi arms deals as "demagoguery".

Meanwhile, his soul mate, Saudi Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir, deplores the outpouring of "blame" of the Saudi leadership as "hysterical".

They display a common bond of antipathy and revulsion toward the "little people", the rabble, who presume to call out their self-serving evil, and denounce their vile predatory schemes.

Posted by: Ort | Oct 27 2018 23:52 utc | 184

"… why do you think the kashoggi event is different then?" james 169

J. Khashoggi was a US resident, on its own that is not enough - he was part of the Establishment via his work at the WaPo. (See Jack who makes the same point.) He was aligned with - or chose to join for expediency - the Democrat, pro Muslim Brotherhood faction, to which practically all the MSM belong. I don’t think he was liked or seen as ‘one of theirs’ but still…such a gruesome murder ostensibly for nobly ‘wielding a pen’ ..

The Dem Trump-bashers (the only ones who mildly critisise KSA - on identity politics issues..sometimes for the 19 terrorists) spring on board with both feet...

The rivalry or even hate between Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Erdogan would be bound to exploit such a situation, though in effect it is none of his business (maybe one could argue that human body parts were transported on Turkish soil?)

Did an anti-MBS group play a role? I don’t know. MBS seems to be someone who can be counted on to dig his own grave. There is an issue of timing …which I can’t grasp. I mean, MBS kidnapped a prime minister for x’s sake, and nobody said anything!

The brutal killing cristallized many strands, it became transparent so afforded a point of nasty, vilifying contention not requiring any commitment, without any policy proposals or changes, just a reason to rant about an individual case and attempt to exploit it. An anchoring point, a banner, symbol, rallying cry. (see for ex. the nomination of Kavanaugh.)

Trump and Putin downplayed the murder’s importance. Only Angie (multi-culti..) reacted in a punitive fashion, with an arms sale interdiction. Very temporary, one can be sure.

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 28 2018 6:40 utc | 185

@181 dh... you’re right that trudeau score brownie points for pot legalization...and going on gay parades too, i suppose... i am not a mainstream voter, so my perspective is generally skewed, lol....i like the guy, but think he is a flake, or feather weight type player... that’s all... his dad was someone i admired and respected...

is the guardian also partly owned by saudi money? it seems the whole uk msm is owned by middle east money... bbc might be the only exception...

@187 noirette... thanks... i think we see this in a similar way... sometimes it takes a confluence of circumstances to produce a change... i think there is more to come and that ksa represents an older and more regressive way of living that the world needs to let go of... i feel the same over the control of finances and the focus on money which everyone is forced into as well... perhaps ksa will continue on, but if the planet is to continue on, it must change... the way represented by ksa needs to be done away with... but it does highlight ver well how the usa, israel. and much of the west. beleive they can put money and business interests ahead of human rights... we still have a long ways to go, but this event has crystallized the need for change. in all of this...

Posted by: james | Oct 28 2018 7:18 utc | 186

Susan @185

The "poverty" cold be either the "Saudi" Bedouin (was half the population) and/or those members of other tribes who are NOT Saudi tribal members. That there are a large segment of the population that are below the poverty line, jibes with the assumption that "all" are equal and have equal opportunities. Something that is not at all a sure thing in SA.

I don't know the actual figures tho. The WaPo article could also be motivated against a monarchy.

Loyalty - MbS may have thought he could buy it and at the same time "shake-down" other Princes. However, the article that I linked to specifies that several Princes were part of a "liberalization" attempt by the Banks from outside SA,(and others mentioned).
However MbS, by "selling out"the relative stability of the Monarchy, may have also suddenly realised that countries like Libya were also "liberalized", and what happened to Ghaddafi?

Posted by: stonebird | Oct 28 2018 9:04 utc | 187

My understanding is MBS just introduced a new welfare system that almost half of Saudis benefit from. This goes along with free health care , education (including those who go abroad) and a pension system and additional subsidies for the poor for food and utilities

I believe there is also a new vat and reduced subsidies for gas, as well as an aborted attempt on a wage freeze for workers that proved unpopular

TBH i dont really know the situation there and doubt anyone here does either

Posted by: Pft | Oct 28 2018 11:34 utc | 188


How magnanimous of him. Meanwhile, he's still k.illing and starving the people of Yemen and getting away with war crimes and the grisly m.urder of one of his own citizens and those inside the kingdom we don't hear about.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 28 2018 13:12 utc | 189

Pft at 190. KSA fiscal policy veers between modernising aka putting Saudis to work (not just pro forma but “productive”), augmenting the price of energy (VAT and what not), and reducing subsidies / stipends / etc. to please and impress Western investors / collabs / potentates / commentators… And maybe dream of moving away from a pure-oil economy. MBS-2030 plan takes up all these themes, as has every devp. plan in KSA since forever, in the same way.

On the ground, the royals generally have to back-pedal or retract the slashing of ‘benefits’, as the entire organisation is built on the Curse of Black Gold and an authoritarian top-down system, with one section of society controlling another and so on down the ladder, e. g. men control women, who control a part of foreign workers, etc…with financial re-distribution following that pyramid in a true example of entrenched, institutionalised, and thus necessary, trickle-down.

The risk of rebellion / revolution is quite high, through sheer numbers, so ‘equilibrium’ is dicey, and the ‘modernising the economy’ never works. The poor can ony be crushed so far, when they don’t care about living trouble will burst out in a spectacular fire.

Vids poverty in KSA

Frontline. The slums of Saudi Arabia 1h +

Independent journo (iirc he was arrested for this doc) 9 mins eng sub (extract from a longer version I can’t find?)

Posted by: Noirette | Oct 28 2018 13:41 utc | 190

What can we surmise about the use of a look-a-like?

The look-a-like wouldn't fool anyone that actually met him and his face wouldn't be a match for facial recognition systems. So trying to find him in CCTV footage would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Also, wifi has a maximum range that depends on the power of the device transmitting. So his fiance, Hatice Cengiz, who we have been told was holding Khashoggi's phone, would not get video transmissions once the look-a-like is out of range.

But was she holding his phone? In a NY Times Op-Ed on October 13 (Khashoggi's birthday), she doesn't mention this. Instead, she says:

He was cheerful the morning we were going to the Saudi consulate to get a document certifying his divorce. I decided not to go to my university that day, and we traveled there [the Consolate] together. He had no foreboding of what was to come... When we arrived at the consulate, he went right in. He told me to alert the Turkish authorities if I did not hear from him soon.

If Cengiz did have Khashoggi's phone, then it seems likely that Khashoggi had some other device with GPS. That could be a second mobile phone. It is expected that people have mobile phones with them at all times and if he had entered the Consulate without a mobile phone, that might've draw more scrutiny which could lead to Consulate security finding his secret video device.

The Saudis would know that when Khashoggi goes missing, the authorities would track the GPS on Khashoggi's phone. That's standard procedure now. After they do that, they would then look at CCTV footage to confirm - and the look-a-like would be there.

Hatice Cengiz says she waited outside the Consulate - even after closing time. It seems that if she was holding his (primary) mobile phone, she didn't have access to it or the video feed wasn't going to THAT phone.

Was the video feed going through the phone that he carried into the Consulate? The range limitations on the wifi transmission of a small device might mean that Khashoggi had to stream to the phone he carried into the Consulate. Then he would've had software on that phone to send the video stream to the cloud.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 28 2018 15:13 utc | 191

Link to the NY Times Op-Ed that I referenced in my comment @193.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 28 2018 15:18 utc | 192

Jack Rabbit

Maybe it wasnt a look alike but Khashoggi himself who altered his appearance to look like a “look alike”

As for the phone he carried into the consulate. If he streamed to cloud then NSA has it. All traffic goes through their pipeline

Also, you would think his fiancee would have tried to call him on that phone, or at least tried. Why no mention of any such attempts and the result if the attempts

Posted by: Pft | Oct 29 2018 3:37 utc | 193

The article in the beginning says the “Clown Prince”, is that intentional!

Posted by: Zahid siddiqi | Oct 29 2018 9:21 utc | 194

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