Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 25, 2018

Khashoggi Drama - A Deal Has Been Made But Will It Hold?

A preliminary deal has been made between the Turkish president Erdogan and the al-Saud clan in Saudi Arabia. The case of Jamal Khashoggi, killed in Istanbul by bodyguards of the Saudi clown prince Mohammad bin Salman, will be closed for now.

Over the last 36 hours, since Erdogan's speech proved Saudi culpability, there have been no more damaging leaks about the case from the usual Turkish sources.

During a podium discussion at yesterday's investor conference in Riyadh Mohammad bin Salman denounced the “heinous crime” committed against Jamal Khashoggi. He praised the "unbreakable relations" with Turkey and lauded Qatar's economic durability.

The comments came after a phone call between MbS and Erdogan.

The negotiations proved to be difficult. The Saudi King sent the governor of Mecca and Medina to make a deal:

Prince Khalid al-Faisal returned home from Ankara with a bleak message for the royal family. “It is really difficult to get out of this one,” Prince Khalid told relatives after his return, one of those family members recalled this week. “He was really disturbed by it.”

Early rumors spoke of a Saudi offer of $5 billion to burry the case. That was not enough.

On Monday the NYT reported that Erdogan denied that he would make any deal of that kind:

Mr. Erdogan, the person close to him said, recounted that a Saudi envoy, Prince Khaled bin Faisal, had offered a package of inducements for Turkey to drop the case — including financial aid and investments to help Turkey’s struggling economy, and an end to a Saudi embargo on Qatar, a Turkish ally. Mr. Erdogan has told associates that he angrily rejected the offer as “a political bribe,” this person said.

Erdogan's current source of money is Qatar, which is under blockade by Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Ending the crisis over Qatar was only one condition he set out to the Saudis. There are other issue related to Syria and more generally the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Turkish side still has the leverage needed to 'adjust' any deal and to guarantee that the Saudis stick to it. The tapes of the Khashoggi murder, audio and video, have not been published. The former British ambassador Craig Murray reports:

I have not seen the video from inside the consulate, but have been shown stills which may be from a video. The most important thing to say is that they are not from a fixed position camera and appear at first sight consistent with the idea they are taken by a device brought in by the victim. I was only shown them briefly. I have not heard the audio recording.

If the Saudis try to cheat away from the deal the photos and audio tapes could still be released. They allegedly prove that MbS himself was very much involved in the killing.

The U.S. gave the final push for a deal to fall into place. The CIA's torturer in chief Gina Haspel was sent to show Erdogan her instruments.  Murray writes:

Haspel’s brief was very simple. She took with her intercept intelligence that purportedly shows massive senior level corruption in the Istanbul Kanal project, and suggested that Erdogan may not find it a good idea if intelligence agencies started to make public all the information they hold.

Whether Erdogan held back in his speech yesterday as a result of Haspel’s intervention I do not know.

Haspel listened to the audio tape and found it 'compelling'.

More details of the deal:

Elijah J. Magnier @ejmalrai - 14:32 utc 24 Oct 2018
Details on #Khashoggi affair:
News coming out from #Turkey that President @RT_Erdogan is still hot on the affair, presenting a large list of demands to #SaudiArabia and the #USA, including compensation for the devaluation of the Turkish lira and support to #Qatar and #Egypt MB +

#Turkey has received Khaled al-Faysal 4 times and was agreed to invest $30 bn in the country. In addition, there are tens of Fethullah Gülen in #SaudiArabia that #Riyadh will have to "deal with" to please #Ankara.

Prince Turki bin Faisal, who was head of Saudi intelligence and Khashoggi's sponsor, says that the family will stick to MbS no matter what. He claims that the royal subjects in Saudi Arabia support their ruler. Other reports from Saudi Arabia let me doubt that claim even as the reintroduction of a the yearly bonus to Saudi state employees may have calmed some people down.

Today the Khashoggi issue moved from the frontpages of U.S. media. The amateurish bombs sent to several Democrat politicians yesterday have turned the news cycle towards a new issue. Is this just by chance?

Erdogan still would like Mohammad bin Salman to be kicked away from the throne. U.S. pressure may have prevented that for now, but MbS has been cut to size. Congress will request a briefing by Haspel and the cintents of the audio may leak. It will continue to press the issue and, hopefully, end U.S. support for the horrible war on Yemen the Saudis and the UAE are waging with extensive British and U.S. help.

Turkey will also have made demands towards the United States. Erdogan wants the U.S. to end the protection of Kurdish forces in Syria. Rebels supported by Turkey recently attacked a U.S. outpost in Manbij. The clash was soon over with no casualties but it demonstrates that the conflict is still simmering. What carrots did the White House offer him?

It is likely that there is a deal and it may even hold. We will have to wait for more leaks to learn more of its details.

But the strategic issues that were brought to light over the Khashoggi case have not vanished. MbS is unreliable and a danger for U.S. interest. He will want some revenge for the damage Erdogan caused to him. He will wait for a chance to hit back.

Posted by b on October 25, 2018 at 7:27 UTC | Permalink

next page »

The deals will move on after Saturday's meeting of the Quartet on Syria, to which for the first time, France and Germany have accepted to participate.
Also, Erdo has asked the US to leave Turkey aside the sanctions against Iran, because it needs its oil.

Odd enough that Fisk, Escobar, and Bhadrakhumar have not written on the story?
Trump would certainly manage to get reelected if he allows the 9/11 cases against KSA.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 25 2018 7:48 utc | 1

First on the list of demands should have been ending the Yemen war !

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 8:03 utc | 2

Their is a danger to Trump through his son in law- Jarrod. That's a angle that hasn't been played. Jarrod giving Top secret intercepts to MBS, for his kill list.
The Israeli press wants to whitewash it, but what would you expect!

Posted by: col from OZ | Oct 25 2018 8:08 utc | 3

Today pipebombs, next week all the news have been massaged and rewritten, next month no one remembers precisely what the details were if they ever knew, and next year the links don't work. Sometimes it takes longer but they get there eventually. If there was any doubt we live in a dystopia.

There's an archive which makes it easy to save stuff and download copies of the saved stuff as self-contained zip files if one is so inclined, it's very good but I seldom bother.

Individuals who manage to cross some undisclosed line = framed for pedophilia and other vile shit.
Countries that manage to cross some undisclosed line = false flag killings or simulated murder.
US presidents = jail and enslavement for life on election, first in a white house.

One can wonder if that Khashoogi is dead and if so by whom or if he was deemed useful enough to live a new-ish life with a new face somewhere. I won't lose any sleep over that either way.

Because I would assume most people don't believe the people in various gory horror movies are actually murdered. I can only handle the very innocent like Vampire Cleanup Department (Hong Kong new but old-school style comedy like in the 80ies and 90ies and with traditional Chinese slowly hopping vampires) now that I'm much more aware of the actual horrors of the world.

Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Oct 25 2018 8:37 utc | 4

"The amateurish bombs sent to several Democrat politicians yesterday have turned the news cycle towards a new issue. Is this just by chance?"

Nothing happens by chance in the geo-political world.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 9:10 utc | 5

Both MBS and Trump plus his plans have been damaged. Erdo is racking up some powerful enemies. While Trump is legally the US president, he is CIC of US military and has ninety days to do as he pleases if he decides to use the military.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 9:20 utc | 6

Erdo has balls. With one punch he has downed MBS and Trump. Not a knockout blow but...
Will have to barrack for him in this bout against US and KSA.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 9:39 utc | 7

Erdogan can make demands to US but in this particular matter he has no leverage over US.So with regards to kurds and manbij he cannot make demands from US. One way for MBS to take revenge from Turkey will be to support areas under Kurdish control with reconstruction/rehabilitation funds. US and Israel would support this as this will help in balkanization of Syria. But this will depend on how much Erdogan squeezes him and if MBS also gives guarantees vis-a-vis Syria then this scenario will not be possible.

Only good thing is the possible reprieve Yemenis could get.

Posted by: Bilal | Oct 25 2018 10:04 utc | 8

Curious to know more about this Kanal Istanbul project that would (when completed) turn European Istanbul into an island. What level of involvement does President Erdogan personally have in this project, given that his political career began in Istanbul (where he was mayor) and do any members of his family or personal network also have a stake in the project? What conflicts of interest exist? Could these conflicts be what US intelligence agencies might use against Erdogan's government?

Posted by: Jen | Oct 25 2018 10:32 utc | 9

thanks b... i especially agree with the last part of your post on mbs seeking revenge... mbs is an accident waiting to happen.. there is more to come, even if we are into the dark side of the moon cycle now...

it is an atmosphere where someone could get assinated.... not sure who that would be here, but the dynamic is volatile as i see it... i agree with peter on erdo....he’s a smooth and savvy political animal, very cunning and in some ways diametrically opposie clown prince....mbs is working with blunt objects, while erdo uses neurosurgeon tools...if i was either guy, i would be careful here.. a certain faction in the usa and israel would definitely like a different set up here... i am not sure how far they will go to get it, but the game plan on iran is not lined up as well as it was prior to the kashoggi saga..

i really don’t beleive erdo has been completly bought out, but holding back and seeing how it unfolds in the short term...

Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 10:34 utc | 10

assasinated, lol... assinated is a funny word that could get used too...

@9 jen.. i really doubt erdogan is going to worry about the cheap cia trick of silencing him on the kanal hankie pankie.. erdo is no pushover, which must demand some alternative game plans to deal with him... all as i see it...

Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 10:39 utc | 11

So will it be THAAD or S400 for the KSA?

Posted by: jezabeel | Oct 25 2018 10:41 utc | 12

jezabeel 12
As Trump said, KSA would not last two weeks without US protection. Russia seems to be working on this problem, but KSA will have to change its ways a lot before they receive Syria style protection.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 11:04 utc | 13

The rich oil princes that MBS imprisoned and extorted are out there in
the deep background. Will this Khashoggi misstep embolden them to act in concert and rid Saudi Arabia of MBS. 23 dagger stabs took out Julius Caesar, there
are probably a 100 hands itching to get MaBuS.

Posted by: librul | Oct 25 2018 11:45 utc | 14

@2 -- Yemen! ... my thoughts exactly.

Posted by: imo | Oct 25 2018 12:15 utc | 15

And I was enjoying the knife attack so much, sorry to see it end. The worst thing is that bin Salman will probably survive this and now be more careful in the future.

Erdogan getting 10% of Turkey's GDP and a few more items is a pretty good offer.

Posted by: Christian Chuba | Oct 25 2018 12:49 utc | 16

If your a Saudi leader and you want to commit mafia style crimes, first buy a few judges !
Arms deals are a priority over brutal murder it seems, here in the U.K., arms deals to be used in mass genacide. Pinch me and i’l wake up ! It’s a nightmare !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 12:53 utc | 17

First on the list of demands should have been ending the Yemen war !
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25, 2018 4:03:34 AM | 2

One would like that to be the case, but Erdogan is going to stick to his direct geostrategic interests, of which he has plenty, and I don't see he has a direct interest in Yemen. However the affair could affect Yemen in two aspects: (1) Trump's critics in the US i.e. the Clinton-Soros faction desperately want regime change in Saudi to get rid of MbS and to get back their CIA puppet al Nayef, and (2) at the same time MbS is so closely associated with Trump and Trump policies that by getting at MbS they are also getting at Trump. To try to help along the plot to get rid of MbS they seem to have let the cat a bit out of the bag on Yemen by opening up the MSM gates to news of Yemen (with the intention to harm MbS). Hopefully they won't be able to get the cat back into the bag, but we'll see. Arousing people's interest in Yemen is the first step, and might lead to too many questions so that there is no point of return. I hope but I don't bank on it. The Clinton-Soros faction are themselves tied to the Yemen war though (they started it). The MIC is deeply attached to the Yemen war for weapons sales, and both sides of the Uniparty are deeply attached to and dependent on the MIC.

Erdogan can make demands to US but in this particular matter he has no leverage over US.
Posted by: Bilal | Oct 25, 2018 6:04:41 AM | 8

The USA (both factions) is critically committed to the relationship with Saudi Arabia, but not (except the Trump Administration) to the MBS regime specifically. At various times in Saudi history, it seems, the US has pulled a regime change there to further their interests. King Salman/MbS pulled a fast one on the US in switching the CIA protege and puppet al Nayef for MbS as Crown Prince, and the US deep State would dearly like to reverse that. US vassals especially UK would also like that, although they are happy to sell as many arms as possible to MbS. One interesting suggestion in Craig Murray's article Khashoggi Erdogan and the Truth (linked several times recently) is that according to him the Turks showed the evidence to intelligence agencies around the world, apparently as a warning shot not to protect MbS (and in particular what they feed to the MSM).

Erdogan has considerable leverage over the Trump Administration (and Israel) because of Trump has bet the farm on MbS, and if MbS goes his whole Middle East strategy is in shreds. The rest of the US (and UK) Deep State has a slightly schizophrenic attitude to MbS - they definitely want to protect their overall relationship with Saudi Arabia at all costs, but would much prefer al Nayef if only they could get rid of MbS, as long as they can do so without endangering their long-term relationship with Saudi Arabia and the petrodollar.

What Lindsay Graham has done - and to a lesser extent Congress as a whole - is interesting, because he has really burnt his bridges as far as MbS is concerned. He has gone so far that he is presumably seriously damaged goods as far as Saudi Arabia is concerned, if MbS manages to hold on to power. Lindsay Graham was betting the farm on being able to get MbS out and replacing him with the CIA's puppet al Nayef. This almost certainly reflects in part heavy financial lobbying of Lindsay Graham (and the whole of Congress) by the Saudi billionaire princes who suffered most under MbS and have an almost life-and-death interest in getting him removed. Congress members have no doubt already received substantial inducements, but if they could help bring about the downfall of MbS they would be welcomed with open arms by his successor (unless MbS was replaced by his brother!).

As soon as MbS starts to look secured, Congress will necessarily rally round, because they don't want to risk their relationship with Saudi Arabia, and the petrodollar. Therefore is there looks like a deal between MbS and Erdogan by which MbS stands a good chance of surviving, I think Congressional members who have come out against him will help silence dissent.

Posted by: BM | Oct 25 2018 13:10 utc | 18

Posted by: Christian Chuba | Oct 25, 2018 8:49:28 AM | 16

I don't think the crown prince can survive this as the US/Israel presumably consider him a liability after this.
The Saudi changing story - now they admit it was planned - driven by the drip of Turkish revelations -means their story is getting closer and closer to the crown prince.
Turkey seems to have phone calls from the consulate during Kashoggi's assassination to the office of the crown prince. He might have been on the line himself.
As long as Turkey and the US have the recordings the Crown Prince can be blackmailed.
As I understand the Saudi power structure the monarchy is fighting for survival as a collective, not as a dictatorship based on secret services and an army.
The US will have a huge say in what will happen.
This from 2017's shakeup of Saudi's security services in favour of the crown prince

MbN’s removal had unnerved some officials in Washington who saw him as a steady hand that had put down the al Qaeda bombing campaign and kept close ties to the U.S. intelligence community where he had a reputation as safe and reliable.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 25 2018 13:14 utc | 19

Revenge - absolutely.
If you saw the video of him at the summit, you will not doubt that.

Posted by: bjd | Oct 25 2018 13:23 utc | 20

Of course, if MbS could somehow prove that he had been set up by Erdogan, that Erdogan manipulated MbS to go ahead with the killing (eg by encouraging maximal brutality to maximise the propaganda effect), and that Erdogan had prior knowledge of the danger to Khashoggi, MbS could flip it around and put the leverage on Erdogan himself!

Erdogan can blackmail Trump as part of the deal with MbS, but if the NSA could ever find evidence through intercepts of a set up by Erdogan, they could combine with MbS to completely destroy Erdogan (complicity in murder). He treads a dangerous line. In putting pressure on Trump as long as he can stick to issues which are not unpopular with the anti-Trump faction he is on safer ground.

Posted by: BM | Oct 25 2018 13:27 utc | 21

Craig Murry's new insight: MbS is a cocaine addict:

... pay close attention to the very definite problems that the Crown Prince is having with his nose... a list of some of the mental symptoms of cocaine abuse...


Unusual excitement



Poor judgment

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 25 2018 14:22 utc | 22

I have come across an article in a Dominican (Dominican Republic) newspaper that alledges that Khashoggi's body parts have been found in Turkey. The newspaper actually posts pictures of the alleged parts. Would there be a way to verify their veracity?

Below is the link to the article (in Spanish):

Posted by: PzBx | Oct 25 2018 14:47 utc | 23

More leverage and deals.. Not that I care much for the victim in this case. Head torturer and killer Gina Hasspel of the CIA sent to moderate a scandal over torture and killing? Faithfulness and transparency in diplomacy and international relations has been totally destroyed. Real catastrophe may result.

Posted by: SoTexGuy | Oct 25 2018 14:48 utc | 24

If I remember correctly, the Saudis mentioned the story of a man going out of the consulate with K's clothes before the video appeared on CNN. Just sayin'

Posted by: Mina | Oct 25 2018 14:55 utc | 25

Drugs may have muddied MbS thinking but they could also make him more susceptible to manipulation.

So my earlier questioning of who has his ear? is even more pertinent. Who is he "in bed with" that might like to see him fail?

Could it be MbZ who has been a mentor but wants Dubai Ports to control Yemen ports?

Could it be Jared? Chevrus on the Open Thread writes:

On a related note I recently read an interpretation by a poster elsewhere suggesting that this whole journalist murder debacle may be an attempt by US-isreal to keep KSA from diversifying their economy thus keeping them oil based, as well as thwarting the sale of the S-400. A lighter turnout for Davos in the desert, an international raising of the eyebrow, and pressure upon MBS.
Who benefits?

Or could it be someone in the palace? The desire to please the King who muses: Will no one ride me of this troublesome journalist?

<> <> <> <> <> <>

PS This is informed speculation, not "conspiracy theory" because I'm not asserting a "truth", just raising the possibility of manipulation.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 25 2018 15:04 utc | 26

An interesting article by Patrick Cockburn on how Erdogan is using the Khoshoggi affair expertly as leverage over both Saudi Arabia and the USA Leak by Leak: Erdogan Exerts His Leverage over the Saudis

Posted by: BM | Oct 25 2018 15:06 utc | 27

jr... i’m not buying craigs latest about mbs as cokehead... psycopath, yeah... cokehead, i doubt it...

BM, i agreewith pc..

to answer b’s question, i don’t thing the deal holds...

Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 15:27 utc | 28

pat lang love affair with gina haspel.... sometimes he comes across as not having a clue...

Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 15:31 utc | 29

PzBx @ 23

The victim in the linked article and photos (assuming they're not fake body parts) has dark curly hair. Kashoggi was bald. And note that there are two different faces in one single photograph, for whatever that might mean.

NOTE! If these are real photos of an actual event, they are extremely gruesome. Not for the faint of heart!

Posted by: AntiSpin | Oct 25 2018 15:40 utc | 30

Aw, so they sent Auntie Gina there to quiet things done? So sweet. She good at tormenting the hell out of people to get what she needs. Her loving homely looks can melt anyone’s heart.

Posted by: Jose Garcia | Oct 25 2018 15:46 utc | 31

Fisk also delivered.

Posted by: Mina | Oct 25 2018 15:49 utc | 32

@22 Jackrabbit

I've known a couple of cokeheads in my time and MbS's nose twitches look like CM may be on to something though a bit early maybe to be conclusive.

Posted by: spudski | Oct 25 2018 16:07 utc | 33

Craig Murry's new insight: MbS is a cocaine addict:
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 25, 2018 10:22:08 AM | 22

The problem with Craig Murray is his arrogant and overbearing tendency to treat his own views as unassailable even when the evidence is too limited. MbS may be a cocain addict (it wouldn't surprise me if he has a problem with drugs), but there may be other reasons for his sniffing and runny nose such as air conditioning.

What I find particularly toxic is his convict-as-guilty-until-proven-innocent on Boshirov and Petrov, just because he hasn't seen an avalanche of background personal information on the two Russians coming out. The two appear to be gays, and that in itself is a potential reason why they may be unusually discreet about their personal lives in a country where gays are not exactly so popular.

Murray's guilty-conviction of Boshirov and Petrov on the basis of ZERO evidence is particularly hypocritical when he is constantly bemoaning the unfounded lies waged by the British state against himself before he was dismissed as ambassador. He should know from his own painful experience that being on the receiving end of unreasonable and unfounded allegations is very traumatic. It may be that Boshirov and Petrov are Russian agents as Craig Murray implies, but it may be (and far more likely in my opinion) that they are simply victims of persecution.

That Craig Murray is so ready to support such persecution on the flimsiest of bases seriously undermines his claim to moral superiority.


On the same page above there is an interesting comment by N_ which very clearly expresses what I think is one of the clearest signs that MbS was set up by the usual regime-change mob, namely the scale and the veracity of the MSM response - and the speed/timing at which reporting started. N_ said:

The scale of the West’s reporting of the Istanbul event, when there was little response to previous similar events, may not be wholly explicable by their being put on the spot by Erdogan and wanting to uphold the honour of the Washington Post.
When the MSM chorus chants in perfect synchrony - and even more so when the chorus maintains its energy far longer than the usual news cycle - it is a very sure sign that the media is being choreographed by the three letter agencies.

Posted by: BM | Oct 25 2018 16:13 utc | 34

The U.S. goal of protecting the petrodollar system has dominated foreign policy in recent decades, as threats to the system increase. The U.S. intent is to do nothing in this affair which rocks the petrodollar boat, but sorting out power factions both domestically and internationally and how they relate is not easy, as we see from the various speculations here.

If the petrodollar system goes, the dollar's value plummets, hyperinflation ensues, and the U.S. economy is screwed. Of course Iran has been a threat to the system (as were Iraq, Libya, Syria...), and one wonders if U.S. efforts to wreck Iran by soft or hard power will be weakened by the Khashoggi fallout.

U.S. efforts to wreck Venezuela (since Maduro bucked the system) are probably not affected, however. It was interesting to see Mike Pence pulled in to the White House bipartisan show a couple of days ago to address the "Caravan" situation. When asked who was financing the operation?... Venezuela! Maybe not an original approach, but consistent and effective as recent history shows.

Posted by: Kabobyak | Oct 25 2018 16:13 utc | 35

IMO, not severing Iran from SWIFT for the time being was another aspect of the deal as nothing else explains the immediate about-face. Meanwhile, far more important issues are in the news besides the INF Treaty withdrawl.

Russia publicly accuses Outlaw US Empire of coordinating last January's mass drone attack against its Syrian bases. This certainly influenced the decision to supply Syria with the most modern S-300 system in great numbers plus the Il-20 attack. This goes well beyond being merely troubling--it was a direct act of war. Putin surely knew this when he met Bolton, thus his quip about arrows and olives takes on a more critical meaning.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 25 2018 16:15 utc | 36


Definitely not him. Limbs are way too muscular and short for someone of his age and stature.

Posted by: Cynic of all cynics | Oct 25 2018 16:16 utc | 37

Erdogan certainly catches a lot of lucky cards...first it was the "coup" gift and now this apparent blunder by MbS...he is such a lucky guy....



Posted by: oldenyoung | Oct 25 2018 16:24 utc | 38

“ I love the king but SA would’nt survive two weeks without US protection”. Trump

“ SA has been around for thousands of years and will do just fine on it’s own”. MBS

Makes me wonder how far Trump has gone to prove his point? From the time of Trump’s two-week speech and the response of MBS to the Khashoggi affair took only 3 weeks. Timing of all of this is most curious.

Posted by: Alpi57 | Oct 25 2018 16:28 utc | 39

Haspel did not state the audio was compelling as b suggests with this statement

"Haspel listened to the audio tape and found it 'compelling'.

From the WaPo article

"A person familiar with the audio said it was “compelling”

BM @21 "if MbS could somehow prove that he had been set up by Erdogan, that Erdogan manipulated MbS to go ahead with the killing (eg by encouraging maximal brutality to maximise the propaganda effect), and that Erdogan had prior knowledge of the danger to Khashoggi, MbS could flip it around and put the leverage on Erdogan himself!"

Erdogan manipulating MBS , encouraging maximum brutality to maximize the propaganda effect... Then MBS could flip it around?!
So would Erdogan be in the room as a cheerleader in this scenario?
With MBS being there as well?

Imaginative that's for sure.

Posted by: anonymous | Oct 25 2018 16:35 utc | 40

An Erdogan advisor confirms that a deal was made and the issue is for now closed.

Abdullah Bozkurt - @abdbozkurt

The United States operatives in the Middle East were involved in #KashoggiMurder along with some elements within the Saudi establishment and this plot was against both #Turkey and #SaudiArabia, claims #Erdogan's chief advisor Yigit Bulut in a government TV network.

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2018 16:39 utc | 41

Thanks b. Goes along with my comment above.

Posted by: Alpi57 | Oct 25 2018 16:46 utc | 42

please don't misunderstand, but I don't believe the 1001 - fairy tales of either the West or Saudi Arabia.

Is MBS really that stupid and leaves traces that lead directly to him?

Have you already found your passport?

Are the body parts 100% those of Khashoggi?

Some suspect that MBS was already in April
during the shooting at the palace.and the one now posing as MBS is a double is????????

Who can be against Vision 2030 , so Modernization becomes reality. ???

E.g. also the fight against corruption Other education, even better
More rights for women
More on tourism, because oil is not is infinite etc, etc, etc, and so on.

Here are some more articles

23 OCTOBER 2018
The Quincy Pact only protects the King of Arabia, not his heir
The Panamanians who remember Washington’s arrest of its employee, General Noriega, will not be surprised by the fate reserved for the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. The Jamal Khashoggi affair is one of MBS’s most insignificant crimes, but will probably be his last. The Saoud family is not protected by the Quincy Pact, which only applies to the King. The United States should recuperate several billion dollars.

26 OCTOBER 2017
Saudi Arabia could abandon Wahhabism
Opening the Economic Forum, “Future Investment Initiative”, Mohamed Ben Salmane, the Prince heir to the throne of Saudi Arabia, declared his intention to transform Saudi Society, making it “normal, tolerant and good”.

27 AUGUST 2017
Saudi Arabia gets ready to change its foreign policy
Saudi Arabia continues with its preparations for King Salmane’s abdication and for his replacement by his son, Prince Mohammed.

- First: Saudi Arabia is getting ready to withdraw from Yemen. Although Prince Mohammed is at the origin of the conflict, he has now understood that that he just cannot win this battle, and could let the responsibility of this disastrous adventure flow back to his father, King Salmane. This approach is confirmed by emails exchanged between the US ambassador Martin Indyk and the United Arab Emirates ambassador. These e mails were published by Middle East Eye [1].
23. APRIL 2016
Prince Mohamed ben Salmane in charge of Saudi Arabia’s future
On the 25th April 2016, Prince Mohammed ben Salmane will announce the King’s vision for Saudi Arabia.
This is a plan for the passage from an oil-based economy to another economy without oil.

Rusia, China y Arabia Saudita ponen en jaque la hegemonía del dólar
supremacía de Washington en el sistema financiero mundial recibió un golpe tremendo el pasado mes de agosto: Rusia, China y Arabia Saudita vendieron bonos del Tesoro de Estados Unidos por valor de 37 900 millones de dólares, de acuerdo con la última actualización de datos oficiales publicada hace unos días [1]. Desde una perspectiva general, las inversiones globales en la deuda del gobierno estadounidense se desplomaron a su nivel más bajo desde julio de 2012. Ya es evidente, el papel del dólar como moneda de reserva mundial nuevamente se ve cuestionado.

Posted by: Arosa2 | Oct 25 2018 16:47 utc | 43

b @41:

... this plot was against both #Turkey and #SaudiArabia, claims #Erdogan's chief advisor Yigit Bulut ...
Wow. That's a bold statement.

For those with short memories, USA's threat to bomb Syria 2 months ago is what allowed Erdogan to hold on to Idlib. And it is still unclear that Turkey has cleared extremists from the Idlib buffer zone as Erdogan agreed to do at Sochi. If Turkey wants to keep Idlib (plus Afrin and Manjib), they will likely need USA again. So it is relevant to ask: is this just distancing?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 25 2018 17:09 utc | 44

The two appear to be gays, and that in itself is a potential reason why they may be unusually discreet about their personal lives in a country where gays are not exactly so popular.

Gays are "not exactly so popular in Russia", I think especially in the provinces and rural areas because Russians are a conservative people, notoriously resistant and slow to adopting change.

Anyways, has it been shown that these men were homosexuals? My understanding
was that these men are Amway salesmen (or their wives are), travelling out of the country
for recreation and as a tax-write-off and to smuggle some health additives in their suitcases.
If they were stoking doobies with floozies in their London hotel, no wonder they are bashful.

As for Kashoggi this seems to be one of the few times where reality has actually gotten
AHEAD of Hollywood. I have NOT seen anyone post that the story of an autocratic King
who goes rogue and commits a public atrocity has already been broadcast on West Wing.

Posted by: Guerrero | Oct 25 2018 17:11 utc | 45

Lyndsey Graham will have to back peddle now, but he won't mind. He does it all the time.

Hated Trump, said terrible things about him. Now he loves him. Hates MbS, now he must find a way to give him another chance. He's very self-important and autocratic. He and Clown Prince hold these traits in common.

Funny how Lindsey keeps getting selected and how he stopped that nasty attack (which was gaining momentum) on his homosexuality.

Posted by: fastfreddy | Oct 25 2018 17:25 utc | 46

Was throwing shade on the US something that MbS wanted as part of the Saudi-Turk deal? It allows MbS to portray himself as a victim but it could also be a way for MbS to lash out at USA for not covering up the killing.

Or it could be that it accurately relflects what happened. But why would Erdogan want to put something like this out there?

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 25 2018 17:31 utc | 47

There have been two sets of pictures flowing around with claims that they show Khashoggi's dismembered body. One is from Bosnia in early 2000 and one is from a Mexican gang war 2008 or so.

Neither of course show Khashoggi who's body has not been found (yet).

There is none, nada, zero evidence that what has really happened is in any way different from how I described the case here over the days.

Khashoggi went to get divorce papers he needed to marry the daughter of an AKP founder. MbS decided to have him killed but went completely overboard in doing that in the consulate. He sent an amateur crew that screwed up the issue and got caught. Erdogan took it as a gift and ran with it.

Posted by: b | Oct 25 2018 17:35 utc | 48

@41 b.. i can buy the firstpart, but the 2nd part about usa trying to get between turkey-ksa... this reminds me of erdos line on the coup.. blame the gulen movement... give the advisor a promotion.. erdo smells like a rose 24/7 and if he doesn’t, blame someone else, lol...

Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 17:43 utc | 50

score one for ksa pr... kashoggis son and family have been allowed to live the barbaric prison of ksa..

Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 17:50 utc | 51

Another day, another deal
"I shake your hand, but some have obtained my exit from your prison"

Posted by: Mina | Oct 25 2018 17:53 utc | 52 think that a dozen or so bombs being sent to resistancetards and not exploding is a sign of a distracting false flag stunt? no way! actually yes way. very yes way.

and it seems for all her "intelligence", professional dumb bitch haspel thinks people in turkey will be upset with "corruption". corruption involving real estate and construction no less! someone get me a fainting couch because well i never! next thing you know she'll shock us all with "intel" that the ocean has water in it. erdogan for all his faults have shown tremendous staying power while every CIA stunt (possible coup attempts, definite use of proxy takfiris) has ended up in the blooper reel of history.

as for syria, that ship has sailed and erdogan - along with everyone else - knows a single flag-draped coffin coming back from a place most yanks couldn't find on a map will equal bad election results. they can thrown a trillion a year at the pentagon but it won't buy support for another moronic zio-oil war. qatar? not an issue. the clown prince tried to get that show started and was met with crickets.

Posted by: the pair | Oct 25 2018 17:53 utc | 53

Correction on R. Fisk links:

The Independent's data base search was errant and I listed links to other writers. Sorry for that.

Here's Fisk's article:

Posted by: Red Ryder | Oct 25 2018 18:01 utc | 54

1. Saudis 'acting from the top' fly two planes into three towers (they say)
2. Big bruhahah over weeks about Saudis
3. Anthrax letters go out. Market tanks.
4. Media conversation flips to WMDs.
5. Cheney/Rumsfeld 'roll' on Iraq for PNAC

1. Saudis 'acting from the top' kill Khasogghi (they say)
2. Big bruhahah over weeks about Saudis
3. Letter bmob letters go out. Market tanks.
4. Media conversation flips to WMDs
5. Pompeo/Bolton 'roll' on Iran for PNAC

Another Chosen '11' Event.

Can't we just glass Tel Aviv and end all this? PNAC Nuremburg Trial II afterward!

L-10 On to Tehran!! We are L&L and G2G!

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 25 2018 18:12 utc | 55

Correction to my posting of links to Robert Fisk articles @ 49.
The Independent's data base search listed those articles.
I had this one open when I posted the others, which are not his. I should have checked each.

Posted by: Red Ryder | Oct 25 2018 18:18 utc | 56

When our main suspect tells us ‘’ he did’nt do it, there’s no evidence ‘’ haveing been given a week or two to calude with his fellow suspects, dispear any evidence and remove the paper trail / internet footprint ! We say oh that’s all right then case closed !!!
You could close all the prison’s with that logic,
And the US bombs that’l be a coincidence , right
The mi6 spokesmen saying trump new !

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 18:21 utc | 57

thanks red ryder.... very good article from fisk that sums up our dilemma...

Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 18:41 utc | 58


Saad Hariri, The Prime Minister of Lebanon, is the person clapping vigorously during this MbS interview.

Earlier news reported that Hariri will travel to Saudi Arabia to attend Saudi Arabia’s annual Future Investment Initiative forum, also known as “Davos in the Desert

What has MbS offered to Lebanon?

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 25 2018 18:45 utc | 59


Any statement about the 'Petro-dollar' you must always append 'Buy BitCoin!!!" to. Don't waste the pitch set-up by leaving out the hook! Remember Petraeus' Rule #1 -- "Eyes and Buys!"

If the Petro-dollar tanks, all life as we know it ceases. Grains and meats hoovered up out of the US bread-basket, collapse of Fed credit-debt kills off Treasuries and SS and MC, last unencumbered retail buying wealth on Earth, 100,000,000s starving, a matrix cascade default on FOREX and NYMEX, while at the same time global auto market, electronics market and oil market go into grinding dormir stall hyper-deflation.

Then everyone can afford to eat all the meats and grains surfeit they want, and roll in palm oil with their pants pockets stuffed with cell phones to their heart's content ... but nobody has two New Silver Sheckels to rub together, because China and Tata Steel can supply all the post-PD global demand at $0.89 an hour labor cost. EU tariff barriers reach to the sun on imports, but nobody is buying EU exports.

Nuclear winter.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 25 2018 18:46 utc | 60

@b 41

Basically says what I was stating here at the very end of an old thread when a newer thread had already opened, which might be useful to revisit:


A CIA directed psyop executed with suborned (rogue) elements of Turkish and Saudi diplomatic and security agencies. That accounts for the "incompetent" aspect of the operation, which as I stated earlier, was designed to "fail" -- meaning to be selectively revealed for something quite other from what it actually was -- just as Watergate was. The majority of all failed intelligence operations are designed in this way, as part of a larger objective.

The fact that the very highest levels of Saudi security were turned should give MBS and his father some pause. Erdogan, and his diplomatic staff, as well.

This is why the US's torturess-in-chief had to make the trip and calm some nerves.

The CIA-controlled "Mighty Wurlitzer" media coverage was the most obvious tell.

The implications are huge. The fallout will take some time to discern.

Readers are advised to go back now and see which of their favorite sources are actually CIA controlled.

In all fairness, it is hard for pundits who often feel forced, or choose, to opine on events in real-time. Nevertheless, certain commenters wisely chose to remain mum until certain evidence emerged. Unfortunately, caution doesn't sell newspapers, or web hits.

Members of the general public who follow geo-politics are advised to remain cautious of their initial reactions. Our reactions are always mediated by various centers of power, having their own interests, who are the suppliers of all public information. As cautioned earlier, events -- especially "deep" events -- are rarely what they seem to be.

Two additional notes on MBS, whether you are sympathetic to him or not. One, the conflict with the opposing princes was portrayed to be about money. If it truly was, why didn't he take all of their money? I submit that it was about ideology, or shall we say more accurately, geo-political allegiances. In all probability, a coup was prevented. In that case, I ask readers what the vanquished side represented? One should always be cautious of strong opinions and emotions when one is not sure what interests, or mix of interests, different parties to a conflict really represent. Second, MBS's whirlwind tour of the US, and public meetings with practically the entire US power elite, was portrayed as the US elites' admiration for him. Poppycock! The man had little-to-no accomplishments. Rather, the very public and unprecedented event was a lobbying push, replete with carrot-and-stick blandishments, for his continuing alliance with US business and geo-political objectives. A subtle, but essential, distinction rarely made.

Posted by: Cynic of all cynics | Oct 25 2018 18:53 utc | 61

Haspel listened to and enjoyed the tape?

Posted by: CD Waller | Oct 25 2018 19:01 utc | 62

PzBx @23

FWIW The skinning of the face is straight out of the well-established Mexican drug gang m/o. They even do it to women.

Posted by: Yonatan | Oct 25 2018 19:06 utc | 63


I've once lived on an island full of witness protection Programmim before. Very strange place. They get new names and some kind of pretend responsibilities. Mo Khashoggi is probably in a nice condo on the island, next to the Kenny Boy Lay's waterfront compound, and Joe 'The Ear' Massano's Kit-Kat Club.

Until they DNA the big bits, consider Khasshogi is walking around as free as a jaybird on that island. He knows all about the $B Jared Kushner nee Brookfield-CCP Saudi-financed rescue package for 666 - 5th Avenue.

If MbS backs out of the $100B's arms deal, and doesn't 'commish' Kushner the $B, then Brookfield-CCP's buy-out of 666 collapses, the REIT all the insiders bought tanks, and commercial property values plummet, the whole Wall Street 'book to buy' REIT swindle implodes ... Khasshoggi is that 'Butterfly in Brazil' black swan.

He's the Michael Hastings of the financial world.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 25 2018 19:15 utc | 64

Yigit Bulut also says..

"Imperialist powers in cooperation with #Israel's Mossad are trying to make #Egypt as the leader of the Middle East while neutralising #Turkey & #SaudiArabia. Russia-ordered French-made aircraft carriers were handed over to Egypt for that, claims #Erdogan's chief aide Yigit Bulut"

Ghassan Kadi has several articles at the saker blog. The earlier one delt at the start with obtaining official paperwork in Saudi Arabia (which is the section worth reading) before moving into his early theory on what had occurred.
The second piece is on the Saudi mindset. Kadi's take from his experience living and working in Saudi Arabia.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 19:46 utc | 65

If I had billons of dollars and wanted to wipe this from the front page. What would happen. Not a pipe bomb unicorn threat for sure.

Posted by: steve | Oct 25 2018 20:25 utc | 66

According to Sputnik, Putin and MBS talked by phone ( via @SputnikInt):

"......"The leaders exchanged views on the Syrian crisis settlement and the current state of affairs in the Middle East region as a whole," the Kremlin press service said in a statement, adding that the situation around the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi was also on the discussion agenda......."

No doubt Putin coached the young Saudi leader on being more discreet in the future about murdering journalists, but Putin isn't interested in lecturing anyone about human rights. He wants to expand the Russian influence in the Middle East. Russia is waiting in the wings just in case the US cuts off weapons sales to the Saudis. Earlier this week, the Moscow Times reported on The Russian government's view of events in Saudi Arabia ("As Saudi Crisis Grows, Kremlin Is Said to Keep Its Bet on MBS":

"........So far, President Vladimir Putin has publicly steered clear of the controversy over the killing of Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul earlier this month, allegedly at the hands of Saudi agents. While Western leaders have questioned the Saudi government’s frequently changing accounts of events and threatened to downgrade ties, the Kremlin said Monday that preparations for a visit to Riyadh are continuing.


Russia’s sovereign-wealth fund, which has been a central player in Kremlin efforts to cultivate the Saudi leadership, has led the way in standing by them amid the crisis. The Russian Direct Investment Fund is leading a big delegation of executives to the prince’s investment forum this week, even as western executives and officials are staying away over the Khashoggi case. Over the weekend, the RDIF welcomed the latest Saudi explanation of events, issuing a statement saying that it “strongly supports” the reforms led by the crown prince, known by his initials, MBS......."

If anyone believes that Putin will change his approach to building relations with Saudi Arabia over the murder of a journalist, he has not paid attention to the number of adversarial journalists that have died doing their job in Russia since Putin gained power. With the Russians waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces of a US-Saudi falling out, this will be far more influencial in setting US policy toward Saudi Arabia than any attempts at blackmail by Turkey.


Posted by: craigsummers | Oct 25 2018 20:28 utc | 67

Cragigsummers @ 67
I agree with you Craig that’s brilliant news ! Let’s both hope Putin can do a deal with the Saudis and we can all get back to a peaceful live. None of that US funded genocide in Yemen or US funded head choppers in Syria. No wonder msb did kashoggi !!! Look at who he hangs around with! USA &UK

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 20:43 utc | 68

B writes: "since Erdogan's speech proved Saudi culpability". I fail to see why a speech by a corrupt politician with a major vested interested in Saudi culpability proves that culpability. Where is the evidence -- not to mention proof?

The quote from Craig Murray, "I have not seen the video from inside the consulate, but have been shown stills which may be from a video. The most important thing to say is that they are not from a fixed position camera and appear at first sight consistent with the idea they are taken by a device brought in by the victim."

If these photos are authentic, then the photos/video were taken by a member of the hit squad. The claim that they are "consistent with the idea they are taken by a device brought in by the victim" does not make sense to me. Why would the hit team not have their own devices for photograhing/filming, recurring to a device that could be under surveillance?

As for the phone calls that supposedly took place during which Khashoggi refused to return and so MbS told the hit squad to finish him off -- that is absurd. Fifteen men could not have overcome him, drugged him lightly, given him a new, diplomatic passport to avoid any security control and slipped him on to a private plane? Once he was back in the Kingdom, he would have been more useful alive than dead -- just like all the others who had been sequestered -- and eventually finished off at Mbs's leisure.

I continue to contend that it was carried out by members of the MbS's palace guard who were among those who want him removed, backed by the friends, families and allies of those who were shaken down and humiliated. Given MbS's modus operandi, he could be expected to have Khashoggi brought back to the Kingdom, but certainly not murdered in such an clumsy way.

Also, he and those planning the kinapping would have surely known how good Turkish intelligence is, it having been set up and fine-tuned over the decades (particularly after the 1980 U.S. orchestrated military coup d'état) by the U.S. to serve NATO's use of Turkey, hence a 100% probability that the consulate was bugged and a colossal risk of anything done there being known to Erdogan and company in real time.

There is also the question of the two planes that did not return to the Kingdom but stopped, inexplicably, on the way back, which I raised earlier and which has been entirely missing from any discussion anywhere. If the whole caper involved members of the Palace guard, then most of the fifteen would not have dared to return to the Kingdom. In the absence of any verifiable evidence that they got off those planes back in Saudi Arabia, one must entertain the possiblity that all of them did not.

It may well be that the two who have since "died" were the only ones who returned, perhaps because they supposed to be above suspicion and could plausibly claim that they were taken by surprise and had refused to take part in anything. However, for MbS, who no longer dare sleep in his own palace for fear of assassination, simply that they had been there would suffice to make them suspicious and worth eliminating.

It is now obvious that MbS is the one being shaken down and humiliated, and, given the festering resentment toward him within the Kingdom, he would seem to be on borrowed time, barring some extraordinary turn of events.

Posted by: RJPJR | Oct 25 2018 20:46 utc | 69

Caitlyn on Echo Chamber propaganda targets midterm election politics but is also useful to see through the media veil regarding the Khashoggi Affair.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 25 2018 20:47 utc | 70


Putin talked with King Salman not MbS--NOT an honest mistake on your part! Ciao!

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 25 2018 20:52 utc | 71

Number 67 comment. What if Putin loves his children. What world domination scenario do you see as credible for Russia? What exists to stop the neo cons from making us all Jeff Gannon. China and Russia, both full of warts and worse but better than nuclear war.

Posted by: steve | Oct 25 2018 20:59 utc | 72

Thanks for the link Karlofi @ 70 that man is awake and knows the game (fake democracy ) could that term be copy righted !

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 21:04 utc | 73

Mina@1 re MK Bhadrakumar on Khashoggi:

Saudi Arabia Gets a Friend in Need - Russia

Can it be a mere coincidence that the West is gunning for MBS today?...The fact of the matter is that the Putin-MBS understanding has blossomed into a veritable alliance and it has great potential to redraw the battle lines between the West and Russia. Putin has made no bones that Russia is moving out of transactions in dollar currency. If Russia and Saudi Arabia at some point begin to trade in non-dollar currencies, it will be a fatal blow..."

If one considers b's posting of Turkish President Erdogan's chief aide Yigit Bulut's claims that "Khashoggi's murder was staged to put Saudi Arabia and the king in a very difficult position and to surrender Saudi Arabia completely to the United States," then an attempt to discipline MBS and return Saudi to US control to pre-empt Russia-Saudi cooperation is a distinct possibility.

Posted by: John Gilberts | Oct 25 2018 21:12 utc | 74

karlof1 @71

Yes, it was an honest mistake, but it does not change my point or refute it. Russia is ranked 148th in the world in press freedom - only 21 places ahead of the Saudis - so Putin is in no position to lecture anyone about a free press. And frankly, he doesn't care about Khashoggi (or obviously a free press). He is interested in advancing Russia politically and economically in the Middle East.


Posted by: craigsummers | Oct 25 2018 21:17 utc | 75

74 "If one considers b's posting of Turkish President Erdogan's chief aide Yigit Bulut's claims that "Khashoggi's murder was staged to put Saudi Arabia and the king in a very difficult position and to surrender Saudi Arabia completely to the United States," then an attempt to discipline MBS and return Saudi to US control to pre-empt Russia-Saudi cooperation is a distinct possibility."

The problem here is that the killing is also very damaging to Trump, and the US and western media response is likely to turn KSA further toward Russia and China. This is why I suspect involvement of an anti Trump faction in the US. A US faction and possibly UK involvement are required to coordinate the MSM narrative. To them, KSA is simply collateral damage in their attack on Trump, though there have been grumblings in the US for sometime about KSA.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 21:30 utc | 76

That’s interesting can you tell me where US & U.K. are ranked ! Way below I’d imagine haveing followed all three for years !! It would help me to acces the credabilty of whoever does the ranking , and I’d love to know who funds them , call me an old cynic but we live in a bad world . Question everything except nothing on face value.

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 21:32 utc | 77

Trust the troll Craig Summers to turn King Salman's briefing of Vladimir Putin as reported by Sputnik News into yet another tiresome tirade about Putin's supposed persecution of reporters and journalists, for which Summers offers no examples of people forced to go into exile or were killed in such a way that can be directly traced back to Putin's government without the British government or news media twats like Luke Harding embellishing such deaths with their own hysterical lies.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 25 2018 21:36 utc | 78

My post @ 77 asking details of Craig’s @ 75

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 21:37 utc | 79

Steve @ 66: Make Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos an offer he can never refuse?

Posted by: Jen | Oct 25 2018 21:38 utc | 80

RJPJR | Oct 25, 2018 4:46:38 PM | 69 writes:

"I continue to contend that it was carried out by members of the MbS's palace guard who were among those who want him removed, backed by the friends, families and allies of those who were shaken down and humiliated."

This is an interesting take on the events. However, whether the events were initiated by the MbS or by his enemies, it was clearly the intention of the 'Globalists' to use the Kashoggi murder to remove MbS and to weaken Trump.

It looks like their efforts have fallen short. The result is a significant geo-strategic set back for the 'Globalists' as the KSA will now move closer to Russia.

With each failed gambit (false flag chemical attacks and ineffective missile strikes on Syria, Il-20 shoot-down, etc.) the 'West' is, step by step, being forced out of the Middle-East.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Oct 25 2018 21:38 utc | 81

The whole deal makes Erdogan a disservice I believe.
It is theorized that a joint Israeli/pro-Israel-CIA plan involves a pushing Turkey to attack Greece somehwere in the Aegean, or inciting an incident at the mouth of the Black Sea entering Bosporus inside Bulgarian EEZ which currently GAF is responsible for it according to EU defensive agreements, complicating the Turkish/Russian cooperation, that later could escalate in a full blown Russian/Turkish war as a pretext for an all out attack on Russian territory from NATO.

LIVE: Putin holds press conference with Greek PM Tsipras in Athens | ENGLISH audio | Ruptly 31,459 views

Streamed live on May 27, 2016
Russian president Vladimir Putin will hold a joint press conference with Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras following their meeting in Athens on May 27.
On May 27-28 Russian president Vladimir Putin is set to make a two day trip to Greece where he will meet also with the President of the Greek Hellenic Republic, Prokopis Pavlopoulos.
The leaders are expected to discuss bilateral ties, regional and international issues, as well as the realization of joint projects in the areas of energy and transport. Greece will also be invited to join the roundtable at this year's St. Petersburg International Economic Forum (SPIEF), which will take place on June, 16.

Here you can listen to V.Putin's enigmatic refference to a scenario of a war between Greece and Turkey:
V.Putin: In case of a war between Greece and Turkey, Russia will tke Greece's side.
(don't have time to find the exact minute it is being heard)
Just saying.

Posted by: Greece | Oct 25 2018 21:43 utc | 82

craigsummers @67

Your speculations on geopolitics may be worth considering, but your opinions about Putin murdering journalists are allegations, not proven facts, and should be treated as such. I understand that it is accepted as conventional wisdom now by most Americans, and why not? For years now this narrative has been pushed repeatedly by neocons, neolibs, MSM, the "Resistance" movement, etc.

I remember years ago receiving emails from assorted right-wingers and Tea Party types about the "34 people the Clintons had murdered". My limited research never revealed enough evidence for me to feel comfortable forwarding those claims. Many identified cases seemed outright bogus or politically motivated, and the more suspicious ones I would at most speculate about but would not hold as established fact. My take on the Putin/Journalists issues, (and I have done a fair amount of research), I see through the same lens.

Where there's smoke doesn't prove there's not a fire, but it doesn't prove there is one either. I do feel strongly that the Russiagate narrative, the new and more dangerous Cold War with Russia, and one-sided demonization of Putin all consist of wispy smoke made to appear as a raging inferno.

Posted by: Kabobyak | Oct 25 2018 21:50 utc | 83

Wikipedia: Aegean Dispute

Greece ‘Ready’ to Extend Sovereignty to 12 Miles in the Ionian Sea | Oct 20, 2018

Pro-Atlantic Oped detailing the situation:
What If Greece Extends Its Territorial Waters to 12 Miles in the Aegean? | Oct 21, 2018

Turkey warns that Greece extending it territorial waters to 12 nautical miles is cause for war | 23 October 2018, 4:46 pm

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu has declared that, “The Turkish government is not about to allow Greece to extend its territorial waters to 12 nautical miles.”

Posted by: Greece | Oct 25 2018 21:57 utc | 84

Where is that list of free-press-ranking?

Posted by: bjd | Oct 25 2018 21:57 utc | 85

''He (MbS) will wait for a chance to hit back.''

Without a doubt. MbS is a psychopath, the more he gets away with the more reckless and emboldened he will become.

Erdogan better be well guarded, he could throw a monkey wrench in Kushner/Israel plans for both Palestine and Iran. MbS is the guy Israel has longed for and the critical figure to their goals.

However, my money says MbS will be assassinated sooner or later by other royals he stepped on...but probably not until the King has died.

Posted by: renfro | Oct 25 2018 22:14 utc | 86

This may help with craigs views.
Have a read Craig and tell me your view on it!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 22:15 utc | 87

'If the Saudis try to cheat away from the deal the photos and audio tapes could still be released. They allegedly prove that MbS himself was very much involved in the killing.'

do they even exist? or is it like the NOVICHOK 'evidence' Theresa may refused to release

Posted by: brian | Oct 25 2018 22:17 utc | 88


Wrong. The US press is owned by large corporations that are part of the "masters of the universe".

The free press is not free and sticks within the Overton Window of Big Brother.

The small fringe internet press is tolerated as a front. Those who get too out of line are simply shut down. Eventually, the non-believers can just be placed in a fusion center.

By the way, the "Freedoms" under the US Constitution have been neutered or annulled. See issues with the 4th and 5th amendment to the Bill of Rights

Posted by: Krollchem | Oct 25 2018 22:23 utc | 89

''"I continue to contend that it was carried out by members of the MbS's palace guard who were among those who want him removed, backed by the friends, families and allies of those who were shaken down and humiliated."

No way the other royals could have subverted MbS's hand picked palace guards.
However if MbS has some of his team take the fall for him and their punishment is severe then that opens up some cracks in MbS's team that can eventually be useful to the other royals.

Posted by: renfro | Oct 25 2018 22:24 utc | 90

Just a quick point for all the China & Russia haters out there, who's got who surrounded?

Last time I looked, it was the evil empire trying to tighten the noose on both of them.

The empire will not abide competition..

What we really need is more diversion...

Posted by: ben | Oct 25 2018 22:25 utc | 91

Thank you b for the leader and all your posts today plus BM and thepair@53.
My take is that the ground will shift further and now we see King Abdullah of Jordan shuffling his feet toward a slightly more independent stance toward Israel by demanding return of a whole 25 hectares of land as the lease has expired. That is a never not ever demand! Israel required by law to give up land is unheard of and will quake the ground under Nutandyahoos feet. Watch that space. Of course it could be just a feint on Abdullah’s behalf but it may be a seismometer foreshock. Perhaps an indicator of a consolidation of Arab/Turkish alliance against an ancient belligerent foe.

The Saudi gravy train to UK and USA political elites is ending, they must be feeling the pinch after last years MbS lock up and shake down of all the princes. MbS is the only gravy maker in town and he nice with Trump and Kushner! The deeper dark state machines like CIA and MI6 must be itching to restore the old lucrative order as well. As others have said, all this coordinated MSM blather is surely the indicator of a dark state assault. Just like the ‘hate russia’ nonsense surrounding the 2016 election of anyone but $hillary and then Trump.

The main game will be for the Muslim Brotherhood to be relieved of wahabbi hindrance and thereby elevate the Turkish sultans standing in the Islamic world. Other priorities include the exit of Yankees as Kurdish protectors and perhaps nErdy getting some Syrian land for ‘safekeeping’. Beyond that being nice for Iran would surely assist nErdy grandeur and create some degrees of separation from Russia and semblance of independence. There is a history of this and Russia is obviously aware of those sensitivities.

I wouldn’t be surprised if nErdy has convinced MbS to invest in Kanal and share revenues or whatever. Would’t that annoy the three letter warmongers.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 25 2018 22:25 utc | 92

Two worthy articles. MBS’s demise might be a forgone conclusion but that will be the start of bigger crisis in the ME. Perhaps, once and for all, it will be the shake up the world needs to stop the madness in motion and end US/Israel grand designs for the world.

Posted by: Alpi57 | Oct 25 2018 22:33 utc | 93

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 25, 2018 6:25:37 PM | 92

But, why Israel even bothered to lease land from Jordan?
They could pull a "Merkel" on them as they did to Greece (through monetary agencies owned by The City and a complicated web of corrupt politicians throughout the EU/Greece/Balkans).
Germany through their Builds, Spiegels and Zeitungs (whatevers) holded them down scrutinizing them publicly, corupt Eu applying strict measures, result real societal/monetary bankruptcy and Israel comes in buying lots of land for IDF relatives, preparing for stage 2 of the "Middle East" wars. Stage 1 was Syria. They be drinking ouzo watching Akropolis, while watching orth Greece/Balkans/Turkey/Russia/Syria/M.E getting bombed with all kinds of new thingamagingies.

Oh I forgot! There was no EU expansion towards Jordan/M.E back then...

Those israeli's/jews playing these Germans like a never fails...never.

Posted by: Greece | Oct 25 2018 23:10 utc | 94

Even orthodox monks that Putin visited in Mount Athos, talked about a Russian invasion on Israel.
Maybe israeli's starting believing it themselves by the ammounts of property they be buying up here on the cheaply cheap.What should be next? Them becoming orthodox christians? lol

Maybe the first step a russian paratrooper takes outside of his transport droping towards Jerusalem Tel Aviv will be the real ONE SMALL STEP FOR MAN...One huge step for Mankind...

Posted by: Greece | Oct 25 2018 23:18 utc | 95

Peter AU 1 @76--

Saudi turning to the East--yes. The Russian and Chinese Saudi Stewpot's been cooking at least a decade. Neither officially or through their media did they Skripal Saudi; Russia's been holding very close energy related negotiations as has China; both attended the Davos in the Desert confab as planned; and King Salman called Putin to chat soon after things settled a bit--note he didn't call Trump whose "two weeks" quip was deeply insulting whether truthful or not.

Saudi has several serious development problems that must be solved before its net-exports of crude fall much further. Its reliance on desalination for potable water for the long term requires nuclear power generation and its lack of arable land to feed is rapidly growing population requires large imports of staple foodstuffs. There are other areas of cooperation, too, space exploration being one.

Yes, MbS and crew erred massively while purging an enemy of the kingdom. However, the circumspection of Russia and China is quite marked compared to the piling on by the CIA's BigLie Media as insults and waffling were provided by Saudi's supposed friends/allies. We're told Salman talked with Putin about Khashoggi, but I'll wager it was about what will now occur as a result, not of the murder, but of treatment it received.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 25 2018 23:22 utc | 96

For those interested in the latest circus, from TRNN:

Posted by: ben | Oct 25 2018 23:23 utc | 97

Regarding this latest Middle East situation in connection with trumps promise to ‘drain the swamp’ it looks to me as if he’s floundering a bit, and may go under. My advice would be beware of the alligators !!!

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 25 2018 23:25 utc | 98


Only 24% of Isrealis are Semites, the Sephardim. The supra-majority are bastard half-blood Caucasus-Turkics who swarmed into Isreal after the fall of the Soviet Union, and the remainder are non-Semetic converts, or else non-Jewish Arabs, who, ironically, may be more Semetic than the self-described 'White Jews' of Likudim.

Simply by painting Isreal as a 'Jewish State' for the sole purpose of elevating the Zionim to the status of Those Who May Not Be Spoken Of ... does not protect Isreal as 'Semetic', quite the opposite.

If Ted Bundy (or Jeffrey Dahmer) had told the court he was 'fluidly metro-sexual' that would not have made him any less a mass-murderer.

When Isreal may not be spoken of, only Zionism will prevail.

Right now NPR is describing MbS as some kind of evil Satanist for *allegedly* murdering Khashoggi, ... but Obama (and Rodham) blithely murdered their own citizens, *and their children* and they did it without apology and without paying blood money, ... but Obama (and Rodham) is the Great White Hope.

When only Daily Pravda (Given Wisdom of the 97% Old White Men) passes as 'free speech' ('True Science' ©) then there is no free speech.

Free speech is a terrible thing to waste.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 25 2018 23:50 utc | 99

karlof1 97

Yes, I have been taking note of the links you have been posting over the last few months showing hint that KSA is turning towards the East.
When reading Alpi57 comment @ 93 I thought about Putin's approach to problems. An RT video, you may have seen it, Putin is asked about problems and solving them.
Putin's reply as best as I remember it... The American approach to a problem is to eliminate it altogether, but eliminating that problem creates a whole set of new problem. Putin's approach to a problem is to take it down to a level that it is manageable, but not down to a level where new problems will arise.
This is how he will be looking at KSA, King Salman and MBS. If it looked as though US or anyone were to regime change KSA and destabilize the area, he would I think ensure the regime change did not occur.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 26 2018 0:11 utc | 100

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