How Will Caligula Fall?
The king and the clown prince of Saudi Arabia ordered a son of Jamal Khashoggi to appear in front of them so they could express their condolences for the murder of his father. This is an attempt by the King Salman to show that his son Mohammad bin Salman is innocent of ordering the premeditated murder of Khashoggi. The audience for the pictures (and video) is the Saudi public which seem unconvinced. But the act is also an insult as Khashoggi's body has not been found* and remains unburied.
The gaze is telling.
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Sahal Khashoggi is the oldest of the four children of Jamal. Three of them live in the United States. Sahal is banned from leaving Saudi Arabia.
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Notice that his robe is not pressed as the usual etiquette would require. He must have been called up on short notice or was dragged before the king. Also notice that the hand of the bodyguard in the background is right on his pistol.
There seem to be a lot of conspiracy theories being weaved around the case. Some of them were mentioned in the comments here. I don't buy it. Turkey did not arrange the incident. I see no sign that the U.S., Israel, Qatar or the UAE had a hand in this. This was a very stupid crime committed by Mohammad bin Salman. Or even worse, a mistake. The wannabe-sultan Erdogan is a crafty politician. He is simply riding the wave.
Alastair Crooke explains why the Khashoggi murder, while not unusual, has this large effect:
When a single additional, undifferentiated, snowflake can touch off a huge slide whose mass is entirely disproportionate to the single grain that triggers it. Was Khashoggi’s killing just such a trigger? Quite possibly yes – because there are several unstable accumulations of political mass in the region where even a small event might set off a significant slide. These dynamics constitute a complex nexus of shifting dynamics.
Crooke sees three traditional strategic positions that already reached tipping points and are likely to change due to this event: the U.S. relations with Saudi Arabia, Turkey's role in the Middle East and Israel's strategic defenses.
On the U.S.-Saudi relations side it is likely Congress, not the White House that will push the issue. There will be another Senate vote next month to end U.S. complicity in the war on Yemen. It is now likely to pass.
The usefulness of Saudi Arabia for the U.S. has been in doubt for some time. A Wall Street Journal op-ed by Karen Elliott House tells the White House to act:
As the Trump administration wrestles with whether to buy Saudi Arabia’s belated and befuddled explanation for the death of Jamal Khashoggi, a thoughtful Saudi tells me: “Morality aside, the critical question is the sanity of our very own Caligula.”
...
If the crown prince loses power it could be either by the gentle hand of his father or, like Caligula, at the violent hand of cooperation between disgruntled princes and praetorians.
...
What this would mean for U.S.-Saudi relations is anyone’s guess. Surely, however, if Mr. Trump has the ability to influence events, the first scenario is far preferable to the second.
Saudi Arabia under an unstable ruler is a burden. Not only for the U.S. but also for the rest of the world. It's time to remove him.
---
*The earlier 'news' today that the body has been found came from one unreliable 'source' and was officially denied.
Posted by b on October 23, 2018 at 18:18 UTC | Permalink
« previous pageMeanwhile, the investigation of the murder of Seth Rich, the American whistle-blower, has been stalled by Mr. Wassermann & Co. - Yes, Steven Wasserman, Assistant US Attorney at the Attorney’s office for the District of Columbia, is the brother of the perfidious Debbie:
http://theduran.com/debbie-wasserman-schultzs-brother-who-is-assistant-us-attorney-in-washington-dc-suspected-of-burying-seth-rich-case/
It's quite possible that the murder of Seth Rich was "another case of "Arkancide."
https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/10/dnc-emails-a-seth-attack-not-a-russian-hack-by-publius-tacitus.html#disqus_thread
The dirty spy Stefan Halper, who has been heavily involved in the Russiagate (including the Clinton/DNC emails & server stories) has been carefully protected by the UK government (M16). This ugly provocateur still teaches (pollutes?) at Oxford: http://theduran.com/trump-campaign-adviser-denied-collusion-to-fbi-source-early-on/
Posted by: Anya | Oct 24 2018 16:41 utc | 102
Craig Murray: I have not seen the video from inside the consulate, but have been shown stills which may be from a video. The most important thing to say is that they are not from a fixed position camera and appear at first sight consistent with the idea they are taken by a device brought in by the victim. I was only shown them briefly. I have not heard the audio recording.
Posted by: b | Oct 24, 2018 9:18:55 AM | 97
Why did Khashoggi feel at ease going into the embassy? Because Turkish Intelligence (virtually) accompanied him and told him not to worry - they gave him a spy camera fixed to his clothes/bag/pen/whatever and told him they'll be looking over his shoulder to make sure he is OK! Meanwhile they are securing their hold over Saudi, and knowingly sending Khashoggi to his death. Hence the Turkish video, and Khashoggi put at ease.
The media hysteria over Khashoggi is all fed by the subserviance of the MSM to the CIA and their friends. As Cynic of Cynics said in the previous thread the whole affair in the media reeks to heaven of psyop.
The strange thing about this psyop and black op is that it must have been a cooperation between the CIA - who not long ago tried to oust Erdogan and even kill him - and Erdogan. The two partners have widely differing motives and goals, and a falling out among thieves seems likely eventually (the Haspel move is an aspect of this).
Posted by: BM | Oct 24 2018 16:50 utc | 103
Interesting information or conformation from Craig Murray on the Killing.
Two interesting aspects 1) the BBC piece linked to by Murray. Khashoggi would have been fully aware of the previous abductions and killings under previous admins that he was part of as well as under MBS. I believe Khashoggi was far lower on the Saudi social pecking order than the princes that had been abducted and killed. What convinced him to enter the consulate for a woman he had known only a few months.
2) Putin stated Russia has seen no evidence only allegations so they would continue to deal normally with KSA. Murray says the pictures and audio evidence has been shown to all countries including Russia. It reinforces my earlier thought that rather than a move to destroy MBS or Saudi Arabia, the main play is to highjack control of MBS from Trump.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 24 2018 16:53 utc | 104
Peter AU1 @ 60 & @98; Re trouble accessing MoA site;
Yep, for the first time ever, I'm getting the same sporadic results.
Posted by: ben | Oct 24 2018 17:06 utc | 105
BM 111
The US faction which I suspected earlier due to the release of the pastor. I doubt it would be the CIA working against Trump unless Haspel is secretly working against him. More likely to be ex CIA with influence, people like Brennon and Clapper. I think the US faction were in on this primarily to damage Trump with the Saudi's being collateral damage. MBS was a big piece in Trumps plans. Damaging MBS damages Trump and perhaps destroys his plans.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 24 2018 17:08 utc | 106
Interesting article from Wayne Madson on Stratetic-Culture. Quote:
“What should be worrisome to Kushner and his friends in Jerusalem is the fact that the Saudi National Guard (SANG), whose ranks are made up of members of various Saudi tribes, is leading a major internal Saudi power struggle against MBS. Thanks to decades of support from various US defense and intelligence contractors, including the CIA-linked Vinnell Corporation of Fairfax, Virginia, SANG has its own intelligence-gathering apparatus. SANG rebels have reportedly made a temporary alliance with the intelligence service of Qatar, since both view MBS as their common enemy and in the Middle East, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” It is this combined SANG-Qatari intelligence capability, coupled with Turkish leads on the Khashoggi murder, that should cause Kushner to have many a sleepless night.”
Plot thickens.
Posted by: Alpi57 | Oct 24 2018 17:25 utc | 107
Bellingcrap is now in. Looks like the anti Sawdi meme is going to be pushed in the MSM for awhile. With his recent statements, Trump looks to be in damage control mode.
"Can we collect and archive every public photograph and video from this conference? Send any links to us here or to helpus@bellingcat.com, and we'll provide a public database for future analysis to identify many of the 4,000+ attendees." https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1054803404583772160
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 24 2018 17:52 utc | 108
Haspel was CIA chief of station in London in 2016,the time and place when the intel agency plotting against Trump started.
Posted by: lysias | Oct 24 2018 17:54 utc | 109
The BBC pushed the story even before CNN if I am correct. I thought then, the Brits need cash for post-Brexit. Maybe Qatari cash?
Posted by: Mina | Oct 24 2018 17:57 utc | 110
One of the wider truths that needs to get out is the actual history of Saudi, which will teach people that MbS isn't an aberration at all as he's doing nothing different from the founding Sauds. The following excerpt comes from this excellent if somewhat dated article: A history of Wahhabism and the hijacking of the Muslim faith
"After ibn Wahhab’s death, Wahhabism became more violent, an instrument of state terror. As Al Saud sought to establish an independent kingdom, Abd al-Aziz Ibn Muhammad, Ibn Saud’s son and successor, used takfir to justify the wholesale slaughter of resistant populations. In 1801, his army sacked the holy Shia city of Karbala in what is now Iraq, plundered the tomb of Imam Hussain, and slaughtered thousands of Shias, including women and children. A few years later, in 1803, in fear and panic, the holy city of Mecca surrendered to the Saudi leader, wary of that his army would do to the population.
"Little do we remember the sacking of the holy city of Medina, when Al Saud’s legions ransacked mosques, schools and homes. Al Saud’s army murdered hundreds of men, women and children, deaf to their screams. As imams pleaded for the most sacred relics of Islam to be protected, Al Saud’s men pillaged and looted, setting fire to Medina’s library. Al Saud made an example out of Medina, the very city which proved so welcoming to Islam. On the ground which saw rise the first mosque of Islam, Al Saud soaked the earth red with blood.
"Where the footsteps of the last Prophet of God still echo, Al Saud filled the air with ghastly cries of horrors.
"But such terror has been erased from history books. Such tales of blood and savage betrayals have been swallowed whole by Al Saud as this house attempted to re-write history and claim lineage to the house of the prophet." [My Emphasis]
The reaction to Khashoggi's murder ought to be: Well, what did you expect; Saudis have acted that way for over 200 years; they're doctrinal aberration Wahhabism demands terror be used as a tool of control, which happens to dovetail with methods employed for Colonial control by Europeans and their Settler States. The Outlaw US Empire's very fond of the terms "Shock and Awe" and "Bomb them back to the stone age" both of which result from the gross imposition of Terror. I recall during WW2 the Nazi V-1 and V-2 being referred to as Terror Weapons--yet their modern variants are celebrated with monikers like Hercules, Nike, Poseidon, Neptune, and Hellfire. Tie the loose ends together to see the Global War OF Terror unleashed by the Outlaw US Empire differs little from the more localized massacres of yore; that the ism employed differs little from that of Wahhab. Thus this question is begged: Who are the real terrorists? Yes, most barflies know, but the majority have yet to ask that question and face the brutal ugly reality of its answer.
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 24 2018 17:57 utc | 111
Halper at Oxford? I thought he was a professor at Cambridge.
Posted by: lysias | Oct 24 2018 17:58 utc | 112
One of the wider truths that needs to get out is the actual history of Saudi, which will teach people that MbS isn't an aberration at all as he's doing nothing different from the founding Sauds. The following excerpt comes from this excellent if somewhat dated article: A history of Wahhabism and the hijacking of the Muslim faith
"After ibn Wahhab’s death, Wahhabism became more violent, an instrument of state terror. As Al Saud sought to establish an independent kingdom, Abd al-Aziz Ibn Muhammad, Ibn Saud’s son and successor, used takfir to justify the wholesale slaughter of resistant populations. In 1801, his army sacked the holy Shia city of Karbala in what is now Iraq, plundered the tomb of Imam Hussain, and slaughtered thousands of Shias, including women and children. A few years later, in 1803, in fear and panic, the holy city of Mecca surrendered to the Saudi leader, wary of that his army would do to the population.
"Little do we remember the sacking of the holy city of Medina, when Al Saud’s legions ransacked mosques, schools and homes. Al Saud’s army murdered hundreds of men, women and children, deaf to their screams. As imams pleaded for the most sacred relics of Islam to be protected, Al Saud’s men pillaged and looted, setting fire to Medina’s library. Al Saud made an example out of Medina, the very city which proved so welcoming to Islam. On the ground which saw rise the first mosque of Islam, Al Saud soaked the earth red with blood.
"Where the footsteps of the last Prophet of God still echo, Al Saud filled the air with ghastly cries of horrors.
"But such terror has been erased from history books. Such tales of blood and savage betrayals have been swallowed whole by Al Saud as this house attempted to re-write history and claim lineage to the house of the prophet." [My Emphasis]
The reaction to Khashoggi's murder ought to be: Well, what did you expect; Saudis have acted that way for over 200 years; they're doctrinal aberration Wahhabism demands terror be used as a tool of control, which happens to dovetail with methods employed for Colonial control by Europeans and their Settler States. The Outlaw US Empire's very fond of the terms "Shock and Awe" and "Bomb them back to the stone age" both of which result from the gross imposition of Terror. I recall during WW2 the Nazi V-1 and V-2 being referred to as Terror Weapons--yet their modern variants are celebrated with monikers like Hercules, Nike, Poseidon, Neptune, and Hellfire. Tie the loose ends together to see the Global War OF Terror unleashed by the Outlaw US Empire differs little from the more localized massacres of yore; that the ism employed differs little from that of Wahhab. Thus this question is begged: Who are the real terrorists? Yes, most barflies know, but the majority have yet to ask that question and face the brutal ugly reality of its answer.
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 24 2018 18:06 utc | 113
BM
This indeed is where our focus should be, this has been obvious to me from the start. The demaocrats are making a move on trump with backing from:- Israil, CIA, U.K. and poss Turkey . The Saudis being the stool pigeon, both America and the UK are now being run by out-right mafia style criminals calling them selfs politians ! Trump may have woken up by now. He will realise there’s very little he can do short of desperate dirty tricks!
Oh by the way is it true the Clinton’s got parcel bombs!
Bring on the ‘godfather’theme tune!!!
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 24 2018 18:07 utc | 114
@ Anton 101
Anton, you are being ridiculous. After all, another 500 Million- paltry I know- is needed for another exploratory process for analyzing the potential of a new bridge connecting Portland and sw wash. Seems reasonable. Living in the area and being a pers employee, I need a carbon tax to live dag nabbit. I am perfectly fine with bureaucrats running their nebulous programs so long as the trough is flowing with slop.
Posted by: Nemesiscalling | Oct 24 2018 18:26 utc | 115
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 24, 2018 1:57:50 PM | 112 ...this question is begged: Who are the real terrorists? Yes, most barflies know, but the majority have yet to ask that question and face the brutal ugly reality of its answer.
For God's sake, who are they?
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 24, 2018 1:57:50 PM | 112 ...this question is begged: Who are the real terrorists? Yes, most barflies know, but the majority have yet to ask that question and face the brutal ugly reality of its answer.
For God's sake, who are they?
@ 112
"After ibn Wahhab’s death, Wahhabism became more violent, an instrument of state terror. As Al Saud sought to establish an independent kingdom, Abd al-Aziz Ibn Muhammad, Ibn Saud’s son and successor, used takfir to justify the wholesale slaughter of resistant populations.”
This was and is not now an aberration; the Koran is filled with exhortations to gruesome torture and mass killing of Kaffirs (unbelievers) and of the “wrong sort” of Muslims. Even more so the Sira – Muhammed's biography – telling as it does of the Prophet's reign of terror and mass murder throughout the last 10 years of his life.
Terror, torture and murder are bedrock stones of Islam. If a Muslim tells you that Islam is “the religion of peace” then he is practicing taqiyya – Islamic deception.
Posted by: AntiSpin | Oct 24 2018 18:35 utc | 118
Karlof1 @112
One that is not common knowledge is the massacre of the followers of Musselama Al-Khatthab (probably not the best spelling) and of him and his wife, by the whabbis. This happened at Dariy'aa, an oasis outside Riyadh.
He was a spiritual leader. He is now called the "false prophet" as he believed in one woman/man marriages and didn't have anything against dogs or pigs.
The Whabbis Killed their OWN women first so that they would have to kill all the male followers of Al-Khatthab for new "wives".
This is definitely not in official Saudi history but was told to me by a friend who worked for Saudi TV a long time ago.
Posted by: stonebird | Oct 24 2018 18:42 utc | 120
Khashoggi was planning to marry his Turkish fiancée on Oct. 3
That this is a love story I think is appropriate, since love is something
some people never experience, and some people believe does not exist.
As for women, in my opinion, they are not only beautiful, but divine, and have, in addition to the physical charms given to them by heaven with a prodigal hand, a quality that is not common, that has become rarer day-by-day, and that will disappear from the world, if God does not remedy it: the heart, my friends, the heart; What is called today: heart, do you understand? True talent is a privilege; I am speaking of knowing how to love well and completely, with tenderness, with loyalty, without interest, without bastard looks, yet by virtue of a sentiment as exalted as it is pure. Already, this cult of love exists only in some places in the world; unfortunately, it is being replaced with the horrible idolatry of the golden calf, which is widely extended and gaining proselytes every moment, seeming to be sheltered under the wings of civilization; however I begin to reflect that civilization is the propaganda of everything beautiful and everything good, and that it can in no way be considered such, an infamous greed that kills the aspirations of the soul and mocks the feelings, and ignores all but deaf material pleasure.
@ 114 be concerned something will divert attentions
I hope the media will not use Iran sanctions to develop Khashoggi murder amnesia or drop the extent of human slaughters taking place in Yemen.
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/10/24/577988/Jamal-Khashoggi-Saudi-Iran-US-sanctions
Posted by: Khashoggi_ghost | Oct 24 2018 19:16 utc | 122
First the pastor released from Turkey and now a Japanese journalist who has been held by Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham. Seems lie a few deals being made around Khashoggi's remains.
From August 7
"The singer repeatedly said how much she appreciated the government’s help in trying to rescue her husband, but added that “the Japanese government holds the key to the situation.” She also said she believed that the government would take action and had high hopes."
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/08/07/
Oct 24
"He attributed Yasuda’s release to an effort by the Japanese government to seek cooperation from Turkey and Qatar via a special anti-terrorism intelligence unit Tokyo established in December 2015."
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/10/24/national/jumpei-yasuda/#.W9DFYLX5XtQ
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 24 2018 19:22 utc | 123
Wayne Madsen provides us with a few of the more recent disappearances of Saudis proving Khashoggi wasn't an aberration. He also tells us a bit about the factional fight ongoing within Saudi. Trump calls MbS and the King friends; what did Clinton & Obama call them? If MbS's plan is to wait for the media hue and cry to wane, he may end up waiting awhile depending on the determination of his enemies to oust him.
Guerro @116&117--
Your answer is given within the context of my prose.
stonebird @120--
I've heard of that in The Battle for Saudi Arabia, IIRC, penned by The Angry Arab.
Another point of reflection is the fake news being spun by Pompeo and Jake Tapper on this 35th anniversary of the attack on US Marine stormtroopers who invaded Lebanon to support the Zionists. The clear target being Iran.
Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 24 2018 19:27 utc | 124
Kashoggi-gost @ 122
Yes l’m right with you on that thinking. In fact it’s a certainty ! It may be on several fronts — it looks real bad on the Golan Hieghts / palistine biggest tank formation for years lined up. Iran . NATO at Russia’s border the shit is about to hit the fan and it’s our own apathetic fault !
Love your name !!! Is it really you ? If so tell us what happened.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 24 2018 19:35 utc | 125
MBS may well have fucked up but the war on Yemen goes on, and on... with direct US and no doubt UK, involvement on the ground, as well as arming the bastards. Remember Yemen or Aden as it was known, was a key British colony that controlled vital sea lanes to Asia, and of course, oil. And it has a long history of anti-colonial struggles, right up until the 1960s.
What possessed whoever did it, to do it, escapes me entirely! I tend to agree with B here, it's either a monumental cockup, or a work borne of complete hubris on the part of someone. Are the Saudi royals so divorced from the real world, that like Nixon and Watergate, they felt like nobody was watching?
And why take him out? He was basically on the same side, so I tend to think that this was something personal ergo, MBS?
On the other hand, they are a pretty vindictive bunch judging by past (and no doubt current) actions against all manner of perpetrators, alleged and real.
One thing is for sure, it's really thrown a cat amongst the pidgeons! The corporate/state media is incensed because it's okay to blow away local stringers in (put country here) but not one of their own! And to do it so blatently. It simply couldn't be ignored, even though the state apparatus wants it to go away.
I really do think that this new, international ruling class has completely lost the plot. Every day that passes, they become more and irrelevant to the real world!
I can feel a 'Lenin' moment coming on... Sooner or later, and more likely sooner, there's going to be a 'great awakening', most likely too late to make much of a difference but it might make a start on getting rid of the shit capitalism has left behind it.
Posted by: William Bowles | Oct 24 2018 19:35 utc | 126
Just came across this:
It does seem possible that the Assad-must-go curse has reached the neck of the Saudi throne.
By Ghassan Kadi
Source: The Vineyard of the Saker http://thesaker.is/insights-into-the-khashoggi-ordeal-who-and-why/
According to Kadi, 'it's the Turks wot did it'.
Posted by: William Bowles | Oct 24 2018 19:54 utc | 127
I posted a comment earlier on the release of a Japanese journalist who had been held in northern Syria for three years. Not sure if the page had timed out or it is held up in span. Will repost later with the relevant quotes and links if it does not appear as it may be relevant to the Khashoggi play.
The gist of it was that in an article dated Aug 7 his wife said the Japanese government where key to having her husband released. the next article on the case Oct 24 announced his release. Qatar and Turkey had negotiated his release after a deal described by the Japanese as Japan jointly combating terrorism with Turkey and Qatar was agreed.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 24 2018 20:08 utc | 128
@89 debs... thanks for the more complete history lesson and overview debs..that history isnot my strong point, but i a glad you are one of the many fine commentators here who i learn from..thanks..
@91 b.. craig murrays line of thinking on the cia terror head gina haspel makes complete sense..i don’t think it is going to work with erdo.. he doesn’t strike me like the kind of guy to be cowed....
thanks for the wayne madsen overview.. of course qatar and turkey seem to be working together here and there appear to be quite a few parties interested in taking down mbs... i maintain it is only a matter of time and mbs is gone...
karlof1 and others.... thanks for the many fine posts and links...
Posted by: james | Oct 24 2018 21:41 utc | 129
A series of pictures here showing Khashoggi entering through the security fence at the Saudi consulate. The temporary fencing appears to be Turkish police barriers. In the first picture Khashoggi is still outside with his back to the entrance. The women he is talking to appears to be honeypot. In the next picture he is searched by a bald man. In the next picture a woman who appears to be part of the security detail walks towards him.
The security detail are not Saudi's. The barriers have a sign on them which I think says police. The Turks have the camera footage from the security camera inside the fence.
Who is the security detail. Is it Turkish police.
https://twitter.com/beiruttime/status/1054079198816546816
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 24 2018 23:54 utc | 130
james @128:
@91 b.. craig murrays line of thinking on the cia terror head gina haspel makes complete sense..Too little too late. The damage is done. If Trump really was keen on protecting King Salman and MbS, he would've acted much quicker.
One is left wondering what pay-offs were made.
Haspel arrives just in time to ensure that the secret tape and the circumstances that led Khashoggi to walk into the Consulate are never made public. That might protect CIA and MIT as much as it does MbS.
"You need us!" was Trump's half-plea, half-demand over a week ago. He might've added: so don't resist our entreaties (to remove MbS).
But they did. King Salman and MbS have dug in their heels. Autocrats are paranoid so MbS will likely be even more "erratic", "volatile", and cruel as he faces an opposition that is more united after Khashoggi. Does that put the anti-Iranian efforts in jeopardy - on the eve of sanctions taking effect?
Time to restock popcorn, 'cause the fat lady hasn't sung yet.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 25 2018 0:02 utc | 131
Notice that his robe is not pressed
I was in Saudi a long time ago but I never saw any Saudi without as pristine, pressed tobe.
Posted by: jrkrideau | Oct 25 2018 0:56 utc | 132
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 24, 2018 9:42:10 AM | 93
(Guardian: Only an international court can bring Khashoggi’s killers to justice Geoffrey Robertson.)
Geoffrey Robertson, QC, became a Media Celebrity (via ABC.net.au) in Oz in the 1980s with a spasmodic TV series called Geoffrey Roberton's Hypotheticals. I was a fan. However my enthusiasm for his cleverness evaporated when he defended the existence of "Israel" during an interview some time after the 'Hypothetical' era.
He's a dual UK/Oz citizen, on the fringe of the Brit Establishment and a proponent of the White Man's Burden line of thinking.
i.e. "Justice" for anyone with the wrong coloured skin or religion wouldn't get much support from Geoffrey The Magnificent, QC.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 25 2018 2:15 utc | 133
From what I can find on embassy and consulate security, the host country provides security outside the grounds of an embassy or consulate.
There are Turkish police barriers with guardhouse outside the Saudi consulate grounds front and rear.
An overhead view from the rear.
https://www.dailyherald.com/storyimage/DA/20181008/news/310089866/EP/1/10/EP-310089866.jpg&updated=201810081645&MaxW=620&maxH=620&noborder
They would have let Khashogi through the front police barrier and the Saudi wearing his clothes out through the rear police barrier. The photos of Khashoggi entering are from a security camera within the Turk police barrier and Photo of the Saudi in Khashoggi's clothes leaving will be from the camera within the Turk police barrier at the rear.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 3:47 utc | 134
What possessed whoever did it, to do it, escapes me entirely!
The Mansion Murder videos on You-Tube illustrate many crimes of passion of ordinary rich people.
@BM | Oct 24, 2018 12:50:51 PM | 104
The media hysteria over Khashoggi is all fed by the subserviance of the MSM to the CIA and their friends.
The Khashoggi family is quite wealthy; they can easily finance a media circus and keep it going. The mainstream news is so clearly and so blatantly fake these days that people are avoiding it in droves. Not everyone is boycotting the presstitutes, but enough are doing so that their finances are probably seriously hurting. Their desperation for a profit, any profit, makes them more susceptible to bribery, and the Khashoggis are probably exploiting this.
If I'm right, the story will not die, in spite of Gina Haspell's seeming ability to force the slippery Erdogan to shut up.
Posted by: Cyril | Oct 25 2018 4:57 utc | 136
@130 jr... yes, i think it is too little too late and i don’t think erdo will back down from revealing more.. as to the usa israel game plan towards iran, i think it is jeopardy.....
@133 peter.. did you read craig murrays article? he suggests a camera that was propably on kashoggi as explanation for some of the data made available...
Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 6:44 utc | 137
@ james
Yes. Excellent article and very informative. The photos I am talking about are from just outside the consulate grounds and are the ones the Turks have released to the media.
OT. Two posts with your name in the start of the open thread. Second one you dis-owned in a comment, but I took it the first was not yours as it had an uppercase J.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 7:00 utc | 138
Something I thought of after my last post on embassy and consulate security. It is a double edged sword. The host country can give security outside the grounds as a courtesy, but the host security can also be used to check on who enters and who leaves.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 25 2018 7:08 utc | 139
@ peter.. yes, what you outlined in post @134 now, i think is an accurate and helpful overview on who gets to follow what...i do believe erdo has data and footagevery unfriendly to mbs and more generally, usa, and trump...i think he has played his cards well into this and suspect he will continue in the same vein... we’ll see..
the general thread with someone spoofing me was @5 in that thread.. not the capitalized one which was also there..
Posted by: james | Oct 25 2018 10:13 utc | 140
It would appear that Craig Murray's latest is pretty much the final word on who did what, namely MBS. So rather than repeat it, read it:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/10/khashoggi-erdogan-and-the-truth/
Posted by: William Bowles | Oct 25 2018 14:02 utc | 142
There are several things worth considering here:
1. "Caligula" may already be too well entrenched to be shoved aside. In fact, he has very methodically and ruthlessly brought the most important power centers under his personal control (read: the people with the guns - army, police, secret services). Admittedly this does not preclude assassination, but it will be difficult to catch him by surprise.
2. Caligula has proved just how well entrenched he is when he very publicly humiliated some of the riches and most powerful members of the wider royal family by having them arrested and indicted for corruption at a luxury hotel while the whole world watched in slack-jawed fascination.
3. Points one and two are probably key to the whole situation, along with his willingness to butt heads with the Wahhabi clerical establishment. It is absolutely clear that Salman faces some of the most powerful and dedicated enemies imaginable both inside and outside the KSA. As everyone should know, there is no remotely comparable source of bribes and "side income" than that which the military-industrial complex business with the KSA provides to those in the loop. Broker a single mid-sized deal and you are set for life. It is a good bet that the range of participants includes not only very unsavory, but completely above-the-law organizations and individuals (incl. Western spook agencies).
4. Caligula is not entirely friendless. There are factions both in the KSA and overseas that favor his planned reform course in the KSA - something the old guard cannot possibly deliver. There are actually factions who want to put an end to the corruption, or divert it to different channels. If Caligula were not such a ruthless psycho, he would be dead already, so betting on him in order to achieve such goals may be quite rational - a gamble, but a rational one.
5. I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish in Yemen. My best guess would be that he thought at the outset that it would be over very quickly, and since Western allies encouraged him (in the belief that they could give Iran a black eye), he presumably saw no reason not to proceed. The problem is that he now has a quagmire at his hands that he apparently doesn't know how to extricate himself from - he doesn't want to lose face, and evidently it doesn't bother him that large numbers of people are getting killed while he is figuring out what to do.
6. The Kashoggi affair is a mystery; I think he simply made another mistake, based on his relative inexperience. He's used to getting his way, and may not have thought properly through what could happen if he tried to exercise his power over life and death over in Erdogan-Land. As many others have mentioned, something remains odd about the whole thing - on the one hand, he undoubtedly looks guilty, but many elements of the event at the same time suggest that he may have been lured into doing it somehow.
7. It's a big crisis for Caligula, and yet, I bet he comes out on top.
Posted by: pater eusebius tenebrarum | Oct 31 2018 3:52 utc | 143
Posted by: pater eusebius tenebrarum | Oct 30, 2018 11:52:33 PM | 143
Thank you for that level-headed summary.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 31 2018 4:05 utc | 144
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Apparently, I read, there is a thriving Saudi expat community in Istanbul and Khashoggi and fiancee had already purchased a condo (I think lived there) ...
He was offered assurances but his choices of Saudi Embassies to do this business was limited to those NOT in KSA ... but apparently only they were eligible to certify his marriageable state.
WaPo Saudi writer saw Turkey as base for a new Middle East.
Aren't too many stable traditional Arab capital -- Cairo, Damascus, Beirut, Baghdad -- Istanbut, ironically being safer than most.
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Oct 24 2018 16:30 utc | 101