Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 16, 2018

Coverup Deal Will Blame Khashoggi Death On Extreme Torture

The coverup of the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, killed on behalf of the Saudi clown prince Mohammad bin Salman, proceeds apace. It is part of a deal between Turkey and Saudi Arabia under the aegis of the United States. The haggling over the details will take a while.

Several media report of a test ballon, floated to find out if an 'alternative' story will fly:

Saudi Arabia was preparing an alternative explanation of the fate of a dissident journalist on Monday, saying he died at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul two weeks ago in an interrogation gone wrong, according to a person familiar with the kingdom’s plans. In Washington, President Trump echoed the possibility that Jamal Khashoggi was the victim of “rogue killers.”
...
[O]n Monday, a person familiar with the Saudi government’s plans said that Mr. Khashoggi was mistakenly killed during an interrogation ordered by a Saudi intelligence official who was a friend of the crown prince. The person, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Prince Mohammed had approved interrogating or even forcing Mr. Khashoggi to return to Saudi Arabia under duress.

But, the person said, the Saudi intelligence official went too far in eagerly seeking to prove himself in secretive operations, then sought to cover up the botched job.

One might expand on that fairytale: "The Saudi general who allegedly botched the interrogation of Jamal Khashoggi mysteriously died in a Saudi air force plane crash on the same day the coverup story was floated." But that would probably take it too far.

The floated story will of course not be believed. A deadly interrogation - extreme torture - in the Saudi consulate is not plausible. One does not need to fly in 15 operators, including a specialist for autopsies, to twist someone's arms and ask a few questions. The intent was either to kidnap the guy or to outright kill him.

The trial ballon seems to come from U.S. sources, not from the Saudis. Trump yesterday spoke of "rogue killers" who may have caused the incident. No one near Mohammad bin Salman dares to go rogue. It's a deadly sin. U.S. intelligence services seem to believe that Khashoggi was indeed killed. The Wall Street Journal reports that Turkey provided its evidence:

The Turkish government has shared with U.S. officials what it describes as audio and video recordings purporting to show that Mr. Khashoggi was killed in the building, people familiar with the matter said.

The Trump administration will have to sell the story not only to the public, but also to the Turkish President Erdogan and to the Saudi King.

Both seem to prepare for a deal. After two weeks of denial that anything happened to Khashoggi the Saudis finally reacted:

King Salman ordered the Saudi public prosecutor to head a probe to determine responsibility for who was responsible for Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance, people familiar with the matter said Monday. Probe results could be announced within days, and lead to some Saudi individuals being held accountable for Mr. Khashoggi’s death, one of the people said.

The Turkish side is also preparing to accept the coverup:

On Monday Turkish investigators – who had been willing to talk for much of the past nine days – were now more cautious. So too were Turkish journalists, one of whom said that his outlet had been instructed to focus less on the apparent crime and more on the political settlement.

The Turkish President Erdogan may agree to a 'political settlement' but the price the Saudis will have to pay for that will be very high. Erdogan again made clear that he aims at nothing less than neo-ottoman leadership in the Arab world:

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on Monday said that Turkey was the only country that could lead the Muslim world.

“Turkey, with its cultural wealth, accretion of history and geographical location, has hosted diverse faiths in peace for centuries, and is the only country that can lead the Muslim world,” he said in a meeting with religious officials.

The "Custodian of the two Holy Mosques" (in Mecca and Medina) is the official title of the Saudi king. It implies leadership within the Muslim word. Since Saladin the title was used by many Islamic rulers, including the Ottoman Sultans. Erdogan wants it back. His aspirations pose an open challenge to the Saudi rulers.

But when a deal has to be made, a deal will happen. Even it it takes some time.

Whatever the deal might be Jamal Khashoggi's children will protest against it. They demand "an independent and impartial international commission to inquire into the circumstances of his death". The Washington Post, where Khashoggi worked, and some Congress members will likely support them. But there is little chance that Trump or the Saudis will agree to any independent inquiry.

An open question is the future of clown prince Mohammad bin Salman. The 'deep state' wants him to leave. The uncontrollable guy - only a heartbeat away from becoming king - proved to be too dangerous to be allowed in such a position.

This detail is therefore intriguing:

The Saudi ambassador to the United States, Prince Khalid bin Salman, left Washington last week, returned to Riyadh and will not be returning, a current and a former American official said on Monday. It was not clear when he might be replaced, or by whom. Prince Khalid is the crown prince’s younger brother.

Did clown prince Mohammad bin Salman recall his brother because he feared that he plotted against him? Or did King Salman order him back to replace MbS as crown prince?

Mohammad bin Salman is already damaged goods. I find it unlikely that he will be allowed to stay in his position. Several high level U.S. congress people, including top Republicans, want him to go. The CIA's darling, Prince Muhammad bin Nayef, will likely regain the crown prince position.

On Monday, while the cover up story was thought out, Turkish investigators were finally allowed to enter the Saudi consulate. Before they arrived a cleaning crew entered the building (vid) to prepare the presumed crime scene.

Trump sent Secretary of State Pompeo to facilitate negotiations between the Saudis and Turks. Ambassador James Jeffrey, the special representative for Syria engagement, is joining him in the endeavor. The Saudis finance the Kurdish proxy force the U.S. uses for its occupation of northeast Syria. One of Erdogan 's demands will be that any such support ends.

Trump is a businessman. The U.S. help for cleaning up the mess MbS caused will not come cheap. He will press the Saudis to sign more weapon deals. He will urge them to stick to random killing of Yemeni civilians.

In the view of the Washington establishment causing the famine of millions of dark skinned people is a lesser sin than touching a journalist and operative they perceive as one of their own.

Posted by b on October 16, 2018 at 06:28 AM | Permalink

Comments
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If Recep Tayyip Erdogan really wants to head a new Caliphate - because that is what Turkey will be, if it becomes Custodian of Mecca and Medina - he had better be prepared to take on not only Syria and Hezbollah in Lebanon, neither of which would welcome Turkish overlordship, but also Jordan and, er, Israel - the latter of the two also with its own plans for expansion in the Middle East. To be President / Sultan of the country occupying the Anatolian peninsula and also of a strip of territory along the Red Sea entails joining the two lands somehow, if they are to be adequately defended by Turkish forces.

And why would Erdogan necessarily stop at Mecca and Medina? Going all the way down to the Gulf of Aden, to capture the Red Sea shipping routes, would be the next step for a would-be neo-Ottoman conqueror.

Posted by: Jen | Oct 16, 2018 6:49:09 AM | 1

'In Washington, President Trump echoed the possibility that Jamal Khashoggi was the victim of “rogue killers.”'

Ah yes, those "few bad apples" again! Where would governments be without them?

"Probe results could be announced within days, and lead to some Saudi individuals being held accountable for Mr. Khashoggi’s death, one of the people said".

One of the nice things about being ruler of Saudi Arabia is that, when people are "held accountable", you can have their heads cut off in short order. Then there is no risk at all of their blabbing the truth subsequently... "Dead men tell no tales".

Posted by: Tom Welsh | Oct 16, 2018 7:30:21 AM | 2

Actually there are rumors saying that the Saudi report will include that the cause of Khashoggi's death is due to a hart attack while he was interrogated by the Saudi security officers.

Posted by: sappho | Oct 16, 2018 7:38:01 AM | 3

@3 -- assuming they kept the head intact it won't be hard to sew it back on a similar enough 'body of convenience' for a public display and 'royal' autopsy etc.

Posted by: imo | Oct 16, 2018 7:44:54 AM | 4

This is hilarious. Yemen experiencing the worst famine in a century due to Saudi/US actions. Palestinians experiencing the worst apartheid since South Africa, Erdogan has about 60 journalists imprisoned ot worse, US Presidents proclaim they can kill American citizens with drones without due process, etc

Yet we get excited over a guy who is supposedly killed (no evidence) that likely had something to do with or at least knew about Saudis complicity over 9/11.

Now I dont know much about MBS. I do know he kind of took over from MBN because Trump and Kushner endorsed him. MBS plans to reform Saudis economy and become less dependent on oil surely were not favored by the Deep State. Kushner and Trunp supported him mainly because he was willing to make nice with Israel.

Lost in all this is what Turkey is getting for their role and returning Brunson. Perhaps sanctions relief. Perhaps an agreement to move away from Russia and support US/Israel in Syria. Lets not forget Khashoggi was agitating on behalf of Palestinians so Israel may have supported this operation.

There are so many variables to this given the parties involved I dont know anything for sure except I am pretty sure whatever narrative we get sold involving Coincidence, Incompetence, Accident and Stupidity (CIA’’S favorite theory) is false.


Posted by: Pft | Oct 16, 2018 7:51:40 AM | 5

Here is an article that explains how Washington justifies ignoring obvious human rights violations by Saudi Arabia:

https://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2018/09/how-washington-excuses-saudi-arabias.html


Washington has a long track record of supporting despots who crush human rights.

Posted by: Sally Snyder | Oct 16, 2018 8:14:27 AM | 6

Erdo “Turkey, with its cultural wealth, accretion of history and geographical location, has hosted diverse faiths in peace for centuries, and is the only country that can lead the Muslim world,” he said in a meeting with religious officials."
... is really over the top
have you ever met a Christian Turk? A Buddhist one? a Jewish one? Not to say it doesn't/didn't exist, but frankly... and what? "hosted"?? "accretion"? of what? of Turks on what was Greek, Armenian, and Crusader lands? How "Turkish" is the cultural and historical wealth of this country?

Posted by: Mina | Oct 16, 2018 8:24:41 AM | 7

Right on cue B., and look one of those phones visible on the table! Pompeo needs to get on Slimfast also, fat arse.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-16/pompeo-travels-traveled-all-way-saudi-arabia-15-minute-meeting-king-salman

Posted by: Taffyboy | Oct 16, 2018 8:24:46 AM | 8

thanks b, especially your last paragraph.. not only is the edifice of ksa coming Dow, but the facade of the USA giving a rats ass to anything other then the sale of arms to destroy the planet countless times over, is also coming down.... for anyone paying attention, that is..

for the past 6 or 7 years I have been saying 2020 is a major turning point historically for the world... in my Astro analysis published elsewhere, I have said this is particularly true for Saudi barbaria.. it does indeed look as though it is coming to pass. i ponder just how successful the USA will beat this turning point with others vying for a piece of the arms race, murder and mayhem pie?

Posted by: james | Oct 16, 2018 8:27:50 AM | 9

The CIA's darling, Prince Nayef bin Abdul-Aziz, will likely regain the crown prince position.
uh, that guy - following your wikipedia link - seems to be dead since 2012... guess you meant this guy...

Posted by: radiator | Oct 16, 2018 8:33:39 AM | 10

Excellent article, esp. the outcry in its last sentence.
There is no humanity.

Posted by: bjd | Oct 16, 2018 8:38:51 AM | 11

"have you ever met a Christian Turk?" The Patriarchy in Constantinople (as they call it) still exists. They're about to have another schism with Rome, people were saying the other day.

If there are not many Christians, it is because they foolishly supported the Greek invasion in 1920-1, and were exchanged for Muslim Greeks, whom the racist Greeks wanted to be rid of so they could have their racially pure Greece that they have today.

Posted by: Laguerre | Oct 16, 2018 8:42:16 AM | 12

@radiator @9 - thanks - my mistake - now corrected.

Posted by: b | Oct 16, 2018 9:16:30 AM | 13

It appears that nothing less than the deposing of MBS is going to buy the current Saudi dynasty more time on the world stage. The longer it takes before that happens, the more likely it becomes that the dynasty will fall and SA will be fragmented, with the good wishes of just about everyone, particularly Israel. In fact, it appears that I have finally found one application of the Zionist's nefarious Yinon Plan that I can agree with.

Posted by: JNDillard | Oct 16, 2018 9:19:34 AM | 14

Once more: what is Turkey's standing in this brouhaha? It's the Saudis' consulate, right? The Yanks torture on their bases all across the globe and nobody seems to mind. Don't tell me that that Turkish chick's heartbreak is now a state matter. And if she was an AKP insider, then she knew that these games are not for sissies. Is the Saudis' position so weak today that they're on the defensive just because Erdogan throws a fit? Only thing I can think of is that the US has chosen to take Turkey's side for a while.

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 9:23:33 AM | 15

@6 Mina

re "have you ever met a Christian Turk?..."

Yes, I worked with a Christian Turk in Toronto about 13 years ago. He was quite well read in economics and was a really nice guy.

Posted by: spudski | Oct 16, 2018 9:28:47 AM | 16

MofA was right first time. This was a shakedown, and the Saudis have paid up. All is over.
Whatever the CIA or anyone wants, the US (and UK and others) are far too conflicted in Yemen to allow any full scale PR war against Saudi to begin yet. It would be guaranteed to focus on the real evil Saudi does, starting with Yemen bombing and starvation.
If that poor Yazidi girl can get a Nobel (good call for once), then proper reporting on Yemen might lead to a Nobel for Khameni. Imagine that - if only.

Posted by: Michael Droy | Oct 16, 2018 9:29:48 AM | 17

Where is Theresa May when we need her?

With her incomparable expertise in Novitchok she should be the most important commenter and judge on the death at Saudi embassy:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-16/pompeo-travels-traveled-all-way-saudi-arabia-15-minute-meeting-king-salman

Quickly, Theresa, impose a set of sanctions on the Saudis!

By the way, where are the miraculously survived Skripals? They both are still in hiding (forced on them by M16?) along with Mr. Steele the Golden Shower.

Posted by: Anya | Oct 16, 2018 9:46:45 AM | 18

@2 Tom Welsh

Well it's not like Seth Rich had a happy retirement, or British arms-control expert David Kelly. The truth of "no man no problem" is acknowledged by many.

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 9:50:27 AM | 19

The Yanks torture on their bases all across the globe and nobody seems to mind. Don't tell me that that Turkish chick's heartbreak is now a state matter.
Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 9:23:33 AM | 14

The only issue at stake is this: when various geopolitical players think they have a chance to get something they want, or fear losing something they have, they jostle amongst each other to achieve their aims. Everything else is utterly irrelevant, especially human rights and the interests of those without power. Anything they say is just meaningless babble for the media, nothing else.

Posted by: BM | Oct 16, 2018 9:57:10 AM | 20

Apparently, the Saudis tried to use toxic materials maybe to remove all traces of bl.ood so it wouldn't be picked up by luminol testing, and the probably even did their own luminol testing and when the toxic chemical didn't work and the bl.ood was still visible under special lighting, they PAINTED over the surface, ergo, the need for a forensics guy and a large crew. Then just to be thorough they sent in a cleaning crew before Turkish forensics isolated the crime scene and probably flushed the sewage pipe multiple times with bleach.

Now Turkish forensics are trying to remove the paint to identify toxic solvent.

But here's my questions: was it the flooring that was painted or the walls? Did they drain the body before dismemberment to cause less splatter? Also, what did the do with the hacked remains? Finally, WHY IS THE LAME MEDIA NOT INTERVIEWING FORENSIC EXPERTS TO DEMYSTIFY THE FORENSIC COVER-UP.

Of course it was all 15 hands on deck to accelerate the operation all execu.ted under orders by a psychotic ruler and ally of the U.S.A.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 9:58:39 AM | 21

If MbS's younger brother has been recalled from Washington, the single most UNLIKELY reason is that MbS asked him for protection. But King Salman wanting him to replace MbS as Crown Prince sounds much more plausible (although I dare say there will be many problems with other princes with stronger claims). Hopefully he will be less under CIA control than Nayef, and as Ambassador to the US is conceivably more responsible and effective than MbS. Sounds like it might be a good move to me.

Posted by: BM | Oct 16, 2018 10:04:58 AM | 22

I see brian who called it all a made up fantasy, and ridiculed me for recognizing the truth when I see it, is nowhere to be found now since Saudis themselves admitted Khashoggi was k..illed in botched interrogation (cause you need a 15-man crew to interrogate including a forensics expert with a bone saw).

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 10:09:19 AM | 23

Spudski
I've met Christian Turks too (from Mardin)! But in comparison to Erdo statement you can't say that Turkey is representative of multi religious places (such as ex Yugoslavia, Albania or Syria, to mention but a few next door to him)

Posted by: Mina | Oct 16, 2018 10:09:50 AM | 24

Laguerre
The schism occured yesterday but it was about the church of Russia rejecting the authority of the Patriarchate in Constantinople after the latter has recognized a separate Ukranian church (i.e. a redux of the Uniate schism?)

Posted by: Mina | Oct 16, 2018 10:12:01 AM | 25

I expect that King Salman will fully support MbS. MbS will argue that replacing him would encourage other dissidents.

The Trump Administration and Israel are also likely to continue their support after expressing 'concerns'. They just needed an adequate cover story - which is now available: interrogation gone bad.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 16, 2018 10:13:43 AM | 26

Mina @23
Agreed.

Posted by: spudski | Oct 16, 2018 10:24:05 AM | 27

Of course the King will be reluctant to replace the heir who has no problem acting extra-judicially to secure continuity of the Wahhabi monarchy. Zionists also really respect someone allied with them who acts extra-judicially like they do.

I also find disgusting that Steve Mnuchin is still attending Davos in the Desert when many are already boycotting, but then Zionists are depraved and have no moral quotient.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 10:27:22 AM | 28

b

With all due respect, your continued direct je accuse! against MbS has no basis in fact. If, say, you visited the US embassy in Dortmundt(?) to obtain a license to marry your new American bride, I doubt very much Angela would hear about it, even though I'm sure the Bundesnachrichtendienst knows who you are. The MbS story has no basis in sigint, so it's blood libel. It's like boasting a ball of fresh sour cheese curds is the finest cured Rauchkäse. It's another Las Vegas mass shooting lone gunman. It's the Miracle of the Two Planes and Three Towers. A 'shiney object' IMHO.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 16, 2018 10:31:18 AM | 29

@19 BM

Yes that about sums it up. And no surprise to see Erdogan wanting
a little bit more of everything, from everyon--oh let's not kid
ourselves, the US is the same as him, only then we call it "global
leadership". I'm just observing that, even with Turkey's currency
circling the drain, he seems to be in a position to get it from the
Saudis, even though his leverage isn't clear to me--again, except
if he temporarily has the ear of the Dark Throne.

But then if he pushes the Saudis to kibosh the SDFistan
protectorate, the next Turkey-Pentagon clash is already in the
making? These parties truly deserve each other.

Indeed possible that King Salman has second thoughts about the
Clown Prince, insofar as any part of reality still penetrates
his clouded mind. But can he afford to replace him so explicitly
on US instructions? Wouldn't this open the floodgates to the
Americans demanding, well, a little bit more of everything?

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 10:38:15 AM | 30

20

Just breath, my friend. The Saudi embassy is all epoxy-grouted tile. Have you never been to the MidEast!? A bottle of Lysol and a power washer set on low, done. And an absolute fakery tale that he was even dismembered! They would have gunned him down on the street in a random drive by.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 16, 2018 10:39:11 AM | 31

For the people that convinced the world 911 was about hating freedom, that Iraq was a mortal threat, this is a slam dunk.

Posted by: steve | Oct 16, 2018 10:44:12 AM | 32

A recent article by Federico Pieraccini is much to be recommended, giving a geopolitical analysis of the triad Saudi-Israel-Neoliberal (Clinton-Obama).

The Killing of Saudi Journalist Khashoggi Could Spell the End for Mohammad bin Salman

Posted by: BM | Oct 16, 2018 10:53:44 AM | 33

5

Yes. Journalist Stress Positioning 101.

Khashoggi was a journalist.
He was writing about Yemen.
He got disappeared.
I'm a journalist.
I'm writing about Iran.
I better not.

Meet me in Azadi Square in a fortnight. I'll buy you a New Isreali cafe au lait. We can marvel at all the shiney objects.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 16, 2018 10:55:08 AM | 34

AM - brian - Zionist

You're too transparent. My lying eyes don't deceive, as much as you would like them too. Zionists pollute the world with deception. Stop trying. You're writing about Iran??? LIES, LIES, LIES no doubt.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 11:05:37 AM | 35

According to an unnamed Turkish official, they found evidence of Kashoggi's murder in the consulate.

Wouldn't it be great if, in their zeal to butcher Kashoggi into 15 carry-on pieces, the forensic expert, being the last one to leave, turn off the lights and close the door, in his hurry overlooked one little item, there, tucked away behind one of the desk legs: Kashoggi's middle finger.

Posted by: bjd | Oct 16, 2018 11:06:49 AM | 36

Correction: AW

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 11:07:12 AM | 37

Magnitsky 2 (or Son of Magnitsky)

I have grown cynical but even I don't think Congress will ignore the obvious parallel to their beloved Magnitsky act. Who dies during a normal interrogation?

I'd love it if someone in the U.S. demanded to examine the body and bin Salman went back to his real self and had a temper tantrum about how no one has the right to interfere with Saudi affairs.

Posted by: Christian Chuba | Oct 16, 2018 11:13:37 AM | 38

As I speculated yesterday, after Trump's comments, Saudi Barbaria will pay some bribes and some underling will be thrown under the bus and the corporate media will be instructed to move on. In good time it will all be forgotten.

MbS has been consolidating power for the past 2 years. He's not gonna go easy. So unless another accident is manufactured it could be cloak & dagger scenes at the royal court in Riyadh.

The questions that need some answers is why MbS wanted to take out Jamal Kashoggi and why the neocons like Fred Hiatt at the WaPo triggered the "outrage" machine?

Posted by: ab initio | Oct 16, 2018 11:13:44 AM | 39

AW-Anton worter- German scrabble - hasbara minion - sitting in a Tel Aviv cafe spinning hasbara bullhset.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 11:15:48 AM | 40

Pft @5: ... what Turkey is getting for their role and returning Brunson

Bruson's release was already in the cards.

Turkey gets Idlib, Afrin, and Manjib (eventually) They have announced that they will not leave Syria until a political solution is reached (same position as USA). I think what that really means is de-facto annexation, just like Golan Heights.

While horrible, this killing is also strange in light of the fact that Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and USA have the same goals in Syria and need each other to achieve them.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Oct 16, 2018 11:16:51 AM | 41

@40

You can't extra-judicially annex any part of a country in war. Geneva Convention prevails. It's a crime and Russia could put forward a Resolution before the Security Council or Syria before the General Assembly condemning such an attemt.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 11:26:38 AM | 42

I'm typing two fingers today, lots of typos: corr. attempt

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 11:29:20 AM | 43

the US is the same as him, only then we call it "global
leadership".

Not "global leadership" these days, but "Western dysfunction"/"US hegemony"

I'm just observing that, even with Turkey's currency
circling the drain, he seems to be in a position to get it from the
Saudis, even though his leverage isn't clear to me--again, except
if he temporarily has the ear of the Dark Throne.

The US neoliberal faction (read Brennan/Clinton/Obama) desperately want to get their man back bin Nayef in line for the throne replacing MbS. But Erdogan is closer to the gear levers and grabs his chance, pulling gear levers for his own benefit (some overlap, but different goals, different direction). I suppose the main reason he has real leverage is because of the noise the neoliberals and their media are making, otherwise it ought to be something of a flat squib. However since the neolibs have no direct contact with the gear levers and have to use media noise as their main weapon, they just have to put up with Erdogan's usurpation.

Indeed possible that King Salman has second thoughts about the
Clown Prince, insofar as any part of reality still penetrates
his clouded mind. But can he afford to replace him so explicitly
on US instructions? Wouldn't this open the floodgates to the
Americans demanding, well, a little bit more of everything?
Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 10:38:15 AM | 29

On the contrary, the US (I assume - in ignorance of the actual facts) don't want MbS's brother in power they want their own man, bin Nayef. One of the arguments which seems to have been used to justify the coup against bin Nayef earlier, and his replacement with MbS, was that bin Nayef was too much a puppet of the US. By replacing MbS with his younger brother the king would be deflecting US pressure to reinstate bin Nayef, without permitting the installation of the puppet. In view of the catastrophic performance of MbS on every single front and his treatment of other lines of the royal family, perhaps the younger brother might be more widely acceptable to the rest of the royal family (notwithstanding problems of precedence in the line of ascent). I know absolutely zilch about the undercurrents surrounding the younger brother, though, which would be an important factor.

Posted by: BM | Oct 16, 2018 11:29:42 AM | 44

In other words: Turkey gets squat on paper and legally; Israel can keep on dreaming too! This is the 21st Century! The rule of law dictates no carving up in war.

That said Erdogan is in a power position to de-legitimize the Wahhabi monarchy but he may be too dumb and spineless to seize this once in a lifetime moment and make it a game-changer.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 11:37:17 AM | 45

The Western media has painted Khashoggi as a journalist who spoke truth, but as this Arabic speaking professor and one who followed his writings in both English and Arabic said Khashoggi espoused an entirely different tune when in front of an Arab audience. There also some insightful information about MbS and his despotic rule in this interview.

Posted by: jsb | Oct 16, 2018 11:52:34 AM | 46

@41 Circe

"You can't extra-judicially annex..." And what are you or me gonna
do about it? I'm reminded of the Dutch film "Admiral" (intnl title):
"The King of England does not decide who will be King of the
Netherlands". In reply, just an amused "Is that so?" Moscow is
filing "serious representations" about this or that outrage with
various bought institutions all the time, which then get forgotten
(incl by themselves) once the next outrage comes along.

Russia had mobilized a "huge armada", which would ensure that Idlib
would go where it belonged, on the forum where the loyalists have
all the advantage now--the battlefield. All "pro-Russia military
experts" ensured us the outcome was not in doubt. Then Nikki Haley
made a fuss, Putin ran for the hills, and the same pro-Russia
military experts were right back at their laptops to rationalize
and glorify the wisdom of his U-turn.

How much can Turkey even be blamed. The country cannot afford a
PKKistan along its southern border, even if as a consequence of
their own greed and shortsightedness. Either the Bear does what is
necessary to restore order and impress on all comers that playtime
is over--mobilizing resources commensurate to the task. Or Putin
starts to play games of his own ("long games" or not), allowing
problems to fester, in which case Erdogan has to take care of
business himself.

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 11:57:15 AM | 47

The Khashoggi case leaves some obvious questions unanswered. Turkey insists that he was tortured and killed within the Saudi consulate. Nobody buys the implausible story of smart watches connected to smart phones deciphered by smart minds. How and why was the consulate bugged, in contravention of articles of the Geneva Convention? Or was Khashoggi wired, which is more likely. More importantly, what did the bug record? Did Khashoggi confess to being an instrument of the Muslim Brotherhood, which he was, and tight with Turkish and Qatari intelligence? He secretly met the Emir of Qatar in the 4 Seasons Hotel in New York, and Turkish officials regularly. Did he perhaps have knowledge of, and was implicated in, a planned coup against MbS? His writings and actions certainly indicated that he aligned with the American deep state, which yearns for a colour revolution in Saudi Arabia, and the replacement of MbS with someone more dependable. The furore emanating from Turkey and the media is now about the loss of their asset, and the discovery of their plans. Why so much hypocrisy? The Saudis are not the first to kidnap or assassinate one of their own subjects, and that on their own territory.

Posted by: SPYRIDON POLITIS | Oct 16, 2018 11:58:33 AM | 48

@43 BM

Interesting points; you seem to have more patience for Riyadh
palace intrigue that I could summon. At least in one regard, MbS
has been very American, and that is his tendency of failing
upward. Up to now that is.

Somewhere on these pages it was written "The Clown Prince has spent
the past two years consolidating his power". If Brennan c.s. are
still pulling this many strings--has Trump?

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 12:10:10 PM | 49

Ziad at SyrPers: MbS "Only Rogue Actor." He explores the back story to the plot thus proving its existence.

This charade reminds me of another incident from the Imperial Past that was used for a 1975 movie script: The Wind and the Lion. And if humanity survives itself, perhaps in another 100 years a film will be made about Khashoggi's murder. For the astute observer, much is being revealed and certain immoral behavioral traits confirmed that ought to delegitimize numerous governments and their officials. What sort of credibility do those nations helping a despot cover-up a murder he condoned think they'll have the next time they cry beware the wolf, bear or dragon? DPRK's Kim must be amused. The word is the Turk's found evidence. Someone up thread put forth the notion that the severed head will be sewn onto another torso, but Islamic law has very specific rites for burial that must take place that have already been broken. Thus, there's no way Saudi will escape overall negative judgement from the Umma, but not enough to provide Erdogan with a boost to become the Custodian he imagines himself. Rather, I see him as the janitor-type custodian cleaning up MbS's mess.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 12:26:34 PM | 50

"The "Custodian of the two Holy Mosques" (in Mecca and Medina) is the official title of the Saudi king. It implies leadership within the Muslim word. Since Saladin the title was used by many Islamic rulers, including the Ottoman Sultans. Erdogan wants it back. His aspirations pose an open challenge to the Saudi rulers."

There are no gods, there is lust for power.

In my view the agreements made after WWII and the history of how the Zionists and Wahhabists were at the table is almost completely over looked. In the 1920s and 1930s there was not just a battle for the oil and other resources the players of the day the UK, Thitchel and others fought also for the "resource" of religion to support their power, taking control from the group who had taken care of the holy sites for over 1,000 years. This has led to one family having control over Muslim holy sites and control of Muslim doctrine (Wahhabi) a vast feudal "kingdom" with influence over global markets\. It is a matter of historical record that the US agreed to a global empire of the three great religions. The story of the Zionists is different but the same principal applies, for real power - get control of a religious doctrine and its holy sites.

The one and only "law" of religion is obedience.

So then the deals were done, the world would be ruled by the owners of the three "great" religions of the West and the cabals of billionaires which surround them.

In the West it is very hard to understand, like asking the fish about the water and the fish says "what water" Extreme Calvinist Christianity together with extreme Wahhabi Islam and extreme Zionist Judaism.

These "great" religions are nothing but power cults and it really does not matter whether the powerful believe in god or not. The rules of the cult are used to maintain discipline among the actors, who (like Abraham) must continually demonstrate their loyalty.

Posted by: Babyl-on | Oct 16, 2018 12:34:50 PM | 51

".......In the view of the Washington establishment causing the famine of millions of dark skinned people is a lesser sin than touching a journalist and operative they perceive as one of their own........"

There is no doubt about the veracity of that statement, but Yemen is in the Saudi Arabia "sphere of influence". Iran has no right to foment rebellion and supply weapons including ballistic missiles to the Houthis who overthrew the internationally recognized governemnt of Yemen. While the concept of a "sphere of influence" was popularized during the cold war, the idea still has merit - according to many apologists for the Russian led war in Eastern Ukraine (“Trump’s Possible Path Out of Ukraine Crisis” https://consortiumnews.com/2016/11/24/trumps-possible-path-out-of-ukraine-crisis/):

".........The U.S.-backed coup in Ukraine in 2014 sparked a New Cold War with Russia, but a President Trump could roll back tensions with a creative strategy for resolving the Ukraine standoff.......The Obama administration helped ignite that war by attempting to yank Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and into the Western security and economic sphere. ..........” - Jonathan Marshall

As’ad AbuKhalil writes:

"........Imperialism is to have the temerity to lecture and hector Russia about the evils of intervention in the affairs of its neighbor, Ukraine, where the U.S. and EU are blatantly conspiring against Russian interests there......”

According to the New York Times:

"......The United States, Mr. Assange told an Argentine newspaper in March of last year, has been the one meddling there, fomenting unrest by “trying to draw Ukraine into the Western orbit, to pluck it out of Russia’s sphere of influence.”........"

Robert Parry (in one of his own articles):

“........But the real narrative is that the United States and the European Union provoked this crisis by trying to take Ukraine out of its traditional sphere of influence, Russia, and put it in to a new association with the EU.......”

I could go on and on. There is obviously a double standard regarding what can legitimately be called a "sphere of influence". There is no such concept in international law. An area of interest deprives the offended country of sovereignty.

Posted by: craigsummers | Oct 16, 2018 12:35:08 PM | 52

A few observations making the rounds on Twitter. Khashoggi versus Skripal evidence-wise. The Trial Balloon: "Absolutely extraordinary they were able to enlist the President of the United States as their PR agent to float it." The comment thread in 2nd tweet is quite entertaining. And I've barely begun my review of Twitterers.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 12:52:25 PM | 53

@49 karlof1

This is surely entertaining. Again, why did the Saudis allow the Turks to crawl over their consulate? Some instructive comments in this thread, pointing that the Turks may be backed by never-Trump factions in Washington. Most tantalizing, isn't the answer simply that this time the Saudis are broke for real, and the time has come to throw the whole funhouse under the bus?

Save me the earnestness about Islamic Law. There are admonitions for humility, and against bearing false testimony, in all these belief systems. So you pay the imam to enlighten him when to enforce and when not to enforce--it's always been this way. I'm reminded of the two flustered young nuns in "Decamerone", debating how they could benefit from the hunky handyman in their convent. "But we made a vow--" "So what, we make promises all the time that we can't possibly keep".

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 12:52:31 PM | 54

@40 jr.. last sentence... no confusion if you think the group of countries you mention are all vying for poll position and willing to eat there own if need be.. it is a further sign of a lack of agreement or being on the same page her and it is accurately reflected in the results they haven’t achieved that they all set out to get in Syria back when they got into all this.... more wheels coming off as I see it.

@54 Craig..I didn’t know this was the comedy channel! Internationally recognized leader of Yemen... really? try your humour over at pat Lang’s. I am curious how it goes over!

Posted by: james | Oct 16, 2018 12:53:08 PM | 55

Under the Saudi "system", Princes of all sorts do not Keep all the money. They must pass it on to lower levels. Ie. Family (including distant relatives), tribal dependents (down to the most lowly - unmarried or divorced women), Employees/Workers, Those that are owed favours or who have now "retired" (left service). Or use it to buy influence. These are obligations.

As far as I can see MbS kept everything for himself, his palaces, his Leonardo, his Rolls-Royces and Bentley's etc.

He also trod on many other Princes (for about 50% of the fortunes of each one) and there are several (rumour = 13) other Princes who are still held or have gone missing.

So it is not inconceivable that the Saudis themselves also want to get rid of him, and set this up. He has upset a lot of people.

(One proviso ; this was the state of affairs when I was there, which is a long time ago - but in a couple of more recent cases I know, this still appears to be the case)

Posted by: stonebird | Oct 16, 2018 1:07:14 PM | 56

I have no problem believing the botched interrogation theory. One finger too many cut off. A little too much electricity to the genitals. Bit too much pressure with the pliers and bingo....there goes your subject.

Posted by: dh | Oct 16, 2018 1:13:04 PM | 57

The purpose of the hypocritical furore about the ex al Qaeda member Kashoggi is to force Saudi Arabia to go for the US THAAD missile system (plus multi-billion USD arms deal) rather than the S-400 system it was considering. It is also about forcing Saudi Arabia to back off from any rapprochement with Russia. The USD needs to keep control of oil energy pricing in USD for its survival.

Once Saudi capitulation is confirmed, the story will be air-brushed away as quickly as possible. The western MSM and its readers care nothing for the truth.

Look out for Saudi decision to buy THAAD etc.

Posted by: Yonatan | Oct 16, 2018 1:17:57 PM | 58

"have you ever met a Christian Turk?" The Patriarchy in Constantinople (as they call it) still exists. They're about to have another schism with Rome, people were saying the other day.

If there are not many Christians, it is because they foolishly supported the Greek invasion in 1920-1, and were exchanged for Muslim Greeks, whom the racist Greeks wanted to be rid of so they could have their racially pure Greece that they have today.

Posted by: Laguerre | Oct 16, 2018 8:42:16 AM | 11

You are wrong entirelly.
What the Greeks have ever done to you and you post such blattant lies?

Posted by: Greece | Oct 16, 2018 1:22:59 PM | 59

@37 Christian Chuba-

"I have grown cynical but even I don't think Congress will ignore the obvious parallel to their beloved Magnitsky act. Who dies during a normal interrogation?"

Ibragim Todashev... Oh, the hypocrisy of it all!

Posted by: Cynic of all cynics | Oct 16, 2018 1:27:17 PM | 60

Greetings from Bezostan! This talk about SA as if it were a "nation" is silly. It's a territory in the same sense that gangs control "territory," an extraction zone. MbS is the current under-lord tasked with the conquest of Yemen. If he can't do it maybe the Ottoman's will.

Posted by: NOBTS | Oct 16, 2018 1:30:58 PM | 61

@43 BM

Obama, Brennan,Clinton??? WTF

And just where the fuck does Trump fit into this whole debacle? Still busy trying to drain the swamp while valiantly trying to keep those buggers in the deep state at bay?

FFS face facts. Trump is left with trying to maintain his family connection to the Saudi throne in spite of their being caught cold-handed murdering a critic. Remember that there isn't even an ambassador to KSA. Jared looks after everything.

They flogged the shit out of the Russians with the Magnitsky Act sanctions and are now left in a position to explain why the KSA should be dealt with differently.

Trump said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and walk. I guess he can. But if there's any truth to karma he's headed for trouble.

Posted by: peter | Oct 16, 2018 1:33:46 PM | 62

Senator Graham: "MbS must go!" That sure didn't take long. Geroman provides us with the "Joke of the day:" "Saudi prince MBS tells US secretary of state Mike Pompeo they are "strong and old allies who fought ISIS together..."

Partisangirl on "mistake" reminds us of Daesh/Saudi similarities. The female Indie Journalists on Twitter are as fearless as they're ferocious and a great pleasure to read. Compared to them, well, truth is Khashoggi can't be compared since he was no more than a Presstitute.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 1:35:49 PM | 63

@57 Yonatan

Now we're getting somewhere. MbS felt he could do no wrong, because through his arms purchases he was besties with Trump and Trump's own crown prince. And then he goes off the reservation concerning arms purchases--the very one thing the Donald consistently cares about, and owns stock in. And all this without making sure the Saudi house itself is in order; bad move. We will see, but Occam's razor says you nailed it.

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 1:40:06 PM | 64

Sharmine Narwani debated Khashoggi not quite a year ago and tells us she'll again be on Crosstalk: "The show will air tomorrow with Dr. Marandi, @AliAlAhmed_en and myself discussing Jamal’s horrible fate and US efforts to frame this tragedy to save MbS." This will certainly be worth watching, and she provides a link to the previous show.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 1:44:41 PM | 65

Watch out, this thingie might be infected by pure nonsense, Skripals etc, etc, , the strongest killer known to mankind!
Run , you fools, run!!

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Oct 16, 2018 1:50:47 PM | 66

Posted by: Greece | Oct 16, 2018 1:22:59 PM | 59

Greeks have an entirely mythical vision of their own recent past. Present-day Greece was mainly created from large-scale ethnic cleansing, and forced conversions of Muslim Albanians in Boeotia and Epirus, of course fully supported by Britain and France. That's why you hear nothing about it - it was the recreation of ancient Greece, so-called ancestor of our culture. You can tell the way Greeks lie to themselves, by the way they pretend victimhood over Cyprus, when it it was Greek coup d'état in 1974 which created the problem. There's never been any sort of recognition of real history in Greece.

Posted by: Laguerre | Oct 16, 2018 2:02:28 PM | 67

Seems that a selected bad apple will have to get two month sentence. Check "Dilawar" in Wikipedia.

he New York Times reported that:

On the day of his death, Dilawar had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days. A guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling. "Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying. Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned that most of the interrogators had in fact believed Mr. Dilawar to be an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.

The findings of Mr. Dilawar's autopsy were succinct.[4]

Leaked internal United States Army documentation, a death certificate dated 12 December 2002, ruled that his death was due to a direct result of assaults and attacks he sustained at the hands of interrogators of the 519th Military Intelligence Battalion during his stay at Bagram. The document was signed by Lt. Col. Elizabeth A. Rouse of the U.S. Air Force, a pathologist with the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington DC, and listed as its finding that the "mode of death" was "homicide," and not "natural," "accident" or "suicide"[5] and that the cause of death was "blunt-force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease".[6]

A subsequent autopsy revealed that his legs had been "pulpified," and that even if Dilawar had survived, it would have been necessary to amputate his legs.[7]

According to the death certificate shown in the documentary Taxi to the Dark Side, the box marked Homicide had been checked as the ultimate cause of death. However, the military had so far publicly claimed that Dilawar had died from natural causes. It was only by accident that the death certificate was leaked when New York Times reporter Carlotta Gall managed to track down Dilawar's family in Yakubi where Dilawar's brother, Shahpoor, showed her a folded paper he had received with Dilawar's body. He could not read because it was in English. It was the death certificate.[8]

Culpability
In August 2005, lead interrogator Specialist Glendale C. Walls of the U.S. Army pleaded guilty at a military court to pushing Dilawar against a wall and doing nothing to prevent other soldiers from abusing him. Wells was subsequently sentenced to two months in a military prison. Two other soldiers convicted in connection with the case escaped custodial sentences. The sentences were criticized by Human Rights Watch.[9]

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Oct 16, 2018 2:04:17 PM | 68

Tom Freidman Audio clip revealing his arrogance and lack of knowledge of Arab world. Original tweeter and commentators have it right. Previous "botched" interrogation that didn't get the same sort of coverage or generate similar outrage, yet the man was publisher and journalist. Yes, yet another of the all too many examples of Western Hypocrisy.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 2:08:13 PM | 69

Used to be many non-Muslim Turks ......Erdogan the Sultan is converting Christian churches all over Turkey into mosques.....press does not speak about it too much. Even Santa Sophia the iconic and magnificent from Constantin is being transformed ......
Turkey before Erdogan was a paradise ...take from a 32 year veteran and current property owner in Turkey originally from USA. He has ruined it forever...will never recover, not unlike the USA.
But there is a saying from a wise now deceased Polish cavalleri who fought in Russia and France during the world war .......his also now deceased and gifted daughter once told me and nothing could be so true ..." one Turk is worth five Jews ...." . Take it to the bank because that is my experience, and many other foreigners I am sure. They are charming beyond belief to tourists and visitors but god forbid that you become involved in any business or other en devour in Turkey other than to visit and enjoy the otherwise amazing sights to see.

Posted by: Joe | Oct 16, 2018 2:35:46 PM | 70

Turkey's Hurriyet Daily News provides an intriguing item comparing this incident with Greece's involvement with PKK's Ocalan in 1999--both Saudi and Greece were caught "red-handed"--but allowed time to save face.

George Galloway on what at minimum Saudi must do to atone. As he says in reply that it's too much--"Too little"--to which I add my agreement.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 2:36:01 PM | 71

funny you mention the stewardship of mecca and medina and how it's been passed down. saladin was pure class...the ottomans were typical pre-industrial slave junkies...and now to some apes with laptops. #progress, amirite?

i've seen the term "vaticanization" thrown around and have always wondered how long the (actual) muslims of the world will tolerate the (not actual muslim) saudi bogarting of their holy sites. especially give the "map drawn by white europeans" nature of the region and recent stunts like screwing with iranian pilgrims and straight up barring of palestinians.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/saudi-arabia-bans-issuing-visas-600000-palestinians-visiting-mecca-929133513

once again: the guys in charge of mecca and medina are barring muslims who in many cases trace their roots back to the old testament days to appease some blue-eyed european "jews" in tel aviv. classy.

Posted by: the pair | Oct 16, 2018 2:50:33 PM | 72

70

I made the journey from Rhodos to a small Turkish port in the '80s, hitching a ride with a Turkish boat captain and two lovely English hookers, oh, what a sea excursion that was!

Then traveled on by bus through incredible Turkey countryside and even more incredible food, to a small village where a friend lived. We were in a lovely cantina as the sun set, then the generator failed and plunged the whole village into darkness and Milky Way whirling overhead.

Then candles came out in every window, a thousand points of soft glow, and flutes and guitars began playing, OMG, the whole village filled with their incomparable music from every window! Unbelievable!

I always wanted to retire there. Four more years and I would have made it. Sad. My UK friend is just finishing up his career. He wanted to retire in Turkey too. We traded our fantasy sunny village panceon dreams.

9/11's The Miracle of the Two Planes and Three Towers and the New American Century Revelations of the Anti-Christ has changed everything. See you in Tehran! Lu, lu, lu!

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 16, 2018 2:59:16 PM | 73

40

What are you on about? Maybe you should read the drivel you two-finger type before you post it, mate. See that little microphone symbol on your keyboard? Now you can read directly from you spy novels.

Posted by: Anton Worter | Oct 16, 2018 3:16:55 PM | 74

Come to think of it, it says something about our world that "extreme torture" is the cover-up, i.e., the euphemistic version. To humans, that's hair-raising. But Trump is all for torture--where's the problem? So the Saudis did something to their guy on their soil; every "terror Tuesday", Obama decided which of his foes he'd "do something" to with drone strikes, all over the world. Wasn't that just called "being serious"? Why do the Saudis even indulge the critics--is Lavrov now freelancing for them? Seems to me this charade is aimed at Trump as much as at the Saudis, by undermining his mid-East point man and moneybag.

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Oct 16, 2018 3:28:36 PM | 75

Christian Chuba : Magnitsky 2 (or Son of Magnitsky)

"... I don't think Congress will ignore the obvious parallel to their beloved Magnitsky act. Who dies during a normal interrogation?"

Is not it grand that to was Saudi Arabia, the bestest friend of the US and Israel, which has provided enough "interesting" material to remind the world about the Magnitsky Act (based on lies) and its main promoter Bill Browder -- the liar and scoundrel!

Hey, Galvin Williamson (the funny sec of defense) and Theresa May (the expert in novitchok) do act quickly and impose sanctions on the House of Saud!

Posted by: Anya | Oct 16, 2018 4:01:54 PM | 76

Ma Laoshi @75--

Yes, very good points. My earlier point about Islamic Law and the Umma was to acknowledge the very large group that has an interest in this entire affair. In most every practical manner, the Outlaw US Empire far exceeds Saudi in its cruelty and extremis--it practiced terrorism and supported terrorists well before Saudi, first within then within and outside its own land. Its attitude toward unfavored journalists is well known by the example made of Assange. The list of regimes needing to be utterly changed for humanity to have a better chance at surviving itself is actually very short: USA, UK, Israel, Saudi Arabia--together they contain @90% of the planet's extremists and extremist ideologies. Their naked portraits certainly are grotesque; hopefully, it won't be too much longer before the rest of the world deems them reprehensible and unfit for civil society.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 4:10:57 PM | 77

now that cnn announces that the body was cut their priest explains that business must go on because it is needed for jobs etc (definitely not for climate/pollution related matters)

the programme was called Quest means business. clear from the title what the anchor identifies too...

Posted by: mina | Oct 16, 2018 4:18:21 PM | 78

And where are the EU prudes to sanction the SA kingdom? These sanctimonious prudes were very quick to punish the RF for the alleged Novitshock attack on Skripals. The Skripals are still alive -- aren't they?

The "most moral" and "exceptional" was also the quickest to make the decision on Skripals' mysterious poisoning: "US imposes sanctions on Russia over Salisbury poisoning of Skripals:" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/08/us-imposes-sanctions-russia-salisbury-spy-poisoning/

The obedient European vassals, including France and Germany, joined the US (to their own detriment): https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-03-27/russia-sanctions-europe-s-weak-response-to-the-skripal-poisoning

Let's see if the big sanctimonious mouths have any moral fiber and sanction Saudi for the real murder of a journalist -- or the whole Skripals' affair is a cheap spectacle played by the "persons of easy morals."

Posted by: Anya | Oct 16, 2018 4:18:59 PM | 79

Yesterday I mentioned I was beginning to sound depressing ! I bet i’m not the only one thourghly depressed by this particular rotten episode and the whole sordid mess that is world affairs ! So I thought I would share a little bit of my medicine, I hope no one minds ! And I dedicate the title to ‘b’ !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGpVXHq2pPQ

Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 16, 2018 4:39:34 PM | 80

I always read b's posts and always seem to try to find pft's posts to summarize what I had been missing. Top notch analyses my friend. Keep it like that.
My take is that, as karlof1 mentioned, they brought D.Trump over to pretend he is their lawyer. Such is the state of things in the Kingdom. What a corrupt kind of man he is. Defending such vile acts, without a shred of shame, publicly. A dangerous man. Maybe what we saw here with the Saudi Embassy case in konstantinople, might actually not be abrilliant move by Erdogan or allies. What if was a well calculated scheme for some to gain some more ammo against Erdogan? Israeli's can now load plenty of MbS ammo and knock down Erdogan. I mean, the man is a "madman" right? Who knows what else he will do later in his rage? Perfect cullprit for Erdogan's public assasination maybe? Will see.

So many brilliant other posters, not enough time/space to mention. Indeed MoA seem like a gem.

Then there are strange synchronicity posts, like tapping in to some aetheric medium, synchronizing with other's people's thoughts, private saying out louds, postings (elsewhere not MoA though).
Right Anton Worter. Indeed 2 planes 3 buildings. Though no laugphing matter. Romors that the squadron leader that brought down plane intended for building 7 (CIA's New York HQ buidling with offices on 7th floor) with his F-15(?) was latter "dissapeared"? True/false? Such a sad state of things in the US of A, and now you have D.Trump complicating matters even more.Heading for WWIII as we speak. Nothing seems salvagable any more. Do you agree?

As for the posters who believe other people's posts should be censored. Well, there might be reasons people's focus should for a bit over over that small little country/people, that literally gave you everything and asked literally NOTHING in return. At least can we all pretend to be civilised! For a bit. maybe there is a reason and the intentions are neither bad nor egotistical, quite the contrary. If it "goes South" there, it will start the cascade and it will go south everywhere.
Sorry for trying to make you people understand what the actual future technology/energy projects involve of those who design yours/our futures. Wasn't trying to "discredit" anything (MoA blog) really.
I guess we all so deserve our little WWWIII coming now fast at our way. Nothing of their plans will work. They do not listen. Pray for the time of destruction to be postponed yet another decade. it has already been postponed twice in the recent years, it seems.

Laguerre Such hatred filled posts. I guess, everything has its place here. Why cut/paste and delete, if this is the way someone's feels about something. Unless/agenda.
Kosovo Albanian Nazi past and present!
(2:30 mins video with Lily Marlen playing in the background literally made me roll on the floor laughing)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=VX0XZgJi4KU
Where did you get your history lessons?
The former "Nazi SS Scanderberg Sympathizers Club (NSSSS-CsICftB) supporters for the Israeli Cause For The Balkans"? (which means utilising the stay-behind ultra rights to keep the Jewish London/Israeli Mafia drug/prostitution corridor running)
Listen my (probably albanian/Turkish) friend, if Greece goes down, your kind and everything you hold dear in your little albania or turkey or even maybe israel (and you came here for LARPing), will go down with it. Greeks will get a way to stand back on their feet at whatever Earth will be left to scavenge here and there (been doing this way more than 10 milenia already), sooner or later, you people won't!

Let's drink to the Gods of War! and censorship!

Posted by: Greece | Oct 16, 2018 4:47:56 PM | 81

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 10:09:19 AM | 23

this story and its abettors just gets more nonsensical. also:
'[O]n Monday, a person familiar with the Saudi government’s plans said that Mr. Khashoggi was mistakenly killed during an interrogation ordered by a Saudi intelligence official who was a friend of the crown prince. The person, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Prince Mohammed had approved interrogating or even forcing Mr. Khashoggi to return to Saudi Arabia under duress. '

who is the anonymous person? where have the sauds made a public confession?

Posted by: brian | Oct 16, 2018 4:49:05 PM | 82

@46
you mean Angry Arab:

'Jamal Khashoggi, the Saudi journalist, who disappeared in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul last week is not quite the critic of the Saudi regime that the Western media says he is, writes As’ad AbuKhalil.'
https://consortiumnews.com/2018/10/15/khashoggi-was-no-critic-of-saudi-regime/

Posted by: brian | Oct 16, 2018 4:51:23 PM | 83

'The questions that need some answers is why MbS wanted to take out Jamal Kashoggi and why the neocons like Fred Hiatt at the WaPo triggered the "outrage" machine?

Posted by: ab initio | Oct 16, 2018 11:13:44 AM | 39

so wheres the body? so far its anonymous people making claims about saudi evil .,...reminiscent of 9-11

Posted by: brian | Oct 16, 2018 4:53:30 PM | 84

#Saudi crown prince denies knowledge of missing journalist:
'Trump tweeted that he "just spoke with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia who totally denied any knowledge of what took place in their Turkish Consulate." '
http://xhne.ws/3jk3A

Posted by: brian | Oct 16, 2018 5:00:23 PM | 85

U.S., Saudi Arabia agree on "thorough, transparent, and timely" investigation of journalist's disappearance http://xhne.ws/RTJ41 pic.twitter.com/9xedQJAspu

so no admission by sauds of guilt in Jaamal Khashoggi disappearance let alone murder

Posted by: brian | Oct 16, 2018 5:04:24 PM | 86


Sharmine Narwani
‏Verified account @snarwani
6h6 hours ago

Just finished a taping with @RT_com’s CrossTalk 11 months after @s_m_marandi & I appeared on the show with Jamal #Khashoggi. The show will air tomorrow with Dr. Marandi, @AliAlAhmed_en and myself discussing Jamal’s horrible fate and US efforts to frame this tragedy to save MbS. https://twitter.com/snarwani/status/1051221585779183616

Posted by: brian | Oct 16, 2018 5:26:59 PM | 87

brian @84&85--

Sharmine's show follows on the previous one having similar content.

Many people accusing Saudi are not anonymous. The Turkish newspaper writer and spokespeople for the Turkish investigators interviewed on Turkish TV aren't. Erdogan himself and other members of his government have pointed fingers and made accusations. Many members of the alleged hit team were named. And one of the more interesting Twitter threads I've seen is one supposedly by a Khashoggi family member: be prepared to machine translate Arabic to English for many comments.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 6:01:50 PM | 88

'Sale affaire', dirty business, as the French say. Still, I think it is primarily a matter for Turkey, on whose territory the crime allegedly took place, and Saudi Arabia, whose citizen Khashoggi was. They are the two countries directly involved. Every other nation comes into this only tangentially. Why all the song and dance coming from the US, Britain and Germany? Britain, whose Prince Charles, has been seen dancing the jolly Saudi sword dance alongside other Saudi princes. As if massive violation of 'human rights', executions (remember the non-violent Shaykh Nimr?), jailings and so on were unknown. The Brits kept mum, as it was in their business and commercial interest to do so. Why the phoney outrage now? As to Turkey, how many innocent people have disappeared thanks to MIT, the Turkish spooks? And how many innocent Kurdish civilians killed by the Turkish Army? Sultan Erdogan may have the moral authority to take over a medium-sized Kebab shop. Certainly not to lead the whole Islamic world.

Posted by: Frank Gelli | Oct 16, 2018 6:14:30 PM | 89

And the Plot Thickens:

"Exiled Saudi Prince Khaled bin Farhan al-Saud says he narrowly avoided a kidnaping attempt in Germany by the Riyadh government just a few days before Khashoggi disappeared."

Saudi must have on-call hit teams with their own forensic doctor attached plus the diplomatic jets at the ready to transport them wherever as the following would indicate:

"Daily Sabah: BBC has documented 3 cases in which monarchy-critical Saudi princes living abroad have vanished. Prince Sultan bin Turki disappeared when he wanted to visit his father in Cairo from Paris in January, 2016. Turki bin Bandar and Saud bin Saif al-Nasr vanished in Europe."

More was certainly happening before and during the internal shakedown and arrests/reforms, which negates Khashoggi's disappearance as an isolated occurrence. But of course, nobody from BigLie Media asked about this. Perhaps Saudi behavior was MI6's model for its Skripal pantomime.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 16, 2018 6:25:00 PM | 90

Looks like this story isn't dying down like the Saudis wanted, more and more descriptive details of the murder are leaking out through the media and the mainstream journalists are now baying for blood and have even gotten Republicans like Lindsay Graham to start threaten sanctions (not that Graham has ever need much prodding to start shrieking for retribution). I guess the moral of the story is that starting a genocidal war for Oil in Yemen is acceptable and will get you a fawning interview with Thomas Friedman from the New York Times, but killing one little journalist (part of our modern nobility) is an unforgivable crime against civilization. I wonder if Thomas Friedman will at least ever need to explain that story he wrote about MBS or if it will just be one more inconvenient fact to go down the memory hole

Posted by: Kadath | Oct 16, 2018 6:31:20 PM | 91

Jack Rabbit @ 41

Something in the cards on Sep 24. Of course, operations such as this are not hatched overnight. Turkey signed on for their role at the time and agreed to return Brunson in exchange for something. What that is could be economic and/or something to do with the Kurds in Syria , or maybe even Gulens return. Stay tuned.

Posted by: Pft | Oct 16, 2018 6:37:15 PM | 92

MBS may well be pulling some Erdogan tactics here, playing all against all. US threatens punishment sanctions ect, MBS threatens to turn to Russia and the yuan while at the same time Russian presidential envoy plus Russian ambassador have meeting with MBS and offsider.

Trump tried putting the screws on MBS but MBS may well have put the screws on Trump. perhaps the Russian envoy offered a safety net - who knows. Anyway, looks like between MBS, Erdogan, Trump and Putin, a lot of deal making going on around Khashoggi's carcass.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Oct 16, 2018 7:30:11 PM | 93

For Yemen.

Salvator Mundi is hanging on the Anti-Christ's wall.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 7:42:57 PM | 94

This might be off topic slightly but connected nevertheless. The plan is set to attack Iran and nothing could change it. Not even this massive Faux Pas. Turkey, among others, is in on it as well. US has taken the mask off completely and will not be deterred from their ultimate goal to destroy Iran and change the government there, no matter how many VIP bodies gets dismembered. SA royals will continue with impunity and total protection until Iran is taken care of. Then, their turn will come. And whatever punishment the US will dish out will amount to no more than a slap on the wrist.

If there ever was a moral compass among the leaders in US, and I am being kind, it was just lost irreversibly with this whole debacle. They were all in on it.

Russia and China might as well start parking their battle carrier groups off the gulf and the coast of Venezuela and prepare for the worst. That is the only way to thwart this madness.

Posted by: Alpi | Oct 16, 2018 8:53:27 PM | 95

My @92

Actually, it's presently on loan to the Abu Dhabi Louvre, but he owns it.

Posted by: Circe | Oct 16, 2018 9:01:51 PM | 96

It seems that a singular event that lends itself to aghast gossip and ghastly imagining still has the potential to shake political mountains, where an abundance of less easily imagined horrors can hardly move a mole hill. There's something notably repellent about cutting up a freshly killed human body with a meat saw, and flying off with the meat in suitcases. A cluster bomb can hardly compete.

Perhaps MbS or whoever concocted the scheme of cutting the body into pieces - travel-expediting butchery, let's call it - thought that with so many heads being lopped off real or contrived in the alt media for a few years now, via various factions of the Empire's mercenary spawn, and heads severed officially often and for long in SA, Khashoggi's murder will be just another bloodfest to yawn over.

It remains to be seen whether this particular depravity will have staying power. The incubator babies maltreatment fiction re Iraq and the image of the naked burning running screaming Vietnamese girl with napalm were influential psychic jolts far and wide; news of murder and maiming of millions seems more likely to inducing drowsiness or boredom than outrage.

So now the hypocrites' choirs, if it suits their purposes, given this opportune vivid cause, will declaim long and loud denunciations and protestations. 'MbS is beyond the pale, unlike us virtuous ones'. Something must be done! This cannot stand! And wouldn't you know it, this monster is beloved by Trump!

And those who formerly lauded and fawned over and gushed over the incredibly progressive tyrant of Saudi Arabia, who has achieved a "complete monopoly" (former CIA Brennan's opinion) of power in SA, will have to salvage their stature publicly by giving voice to the pretense that poor MbS was the victim of an "unfortunate series of events", while privately deciding to pass on any invitations in his vicinity. Better safe than sorry.

Posted by: Robert Snefjella | Oct 16, 2018 9:21:48 PM | 97

So looking at the larger picture. The Deep States Propaganda Arm (MSM) seems hell bent on convincing everyone Saudi Arabia/MBS is evil (and they are). Pretty much everything they report is being fed from Turkish anonymous sources and assumed to be true apparently with the Deep States permission, the same Deep State giving us Russiagate. Soon to be replaced my Saudigate or Khashoggi gate?

With Venezuela on the brink of collapse, sanctions set to kick in on Iran oil next month, oil prices inching up, record level deficits in the US, tarrifs impacting prices, housing bubble showing signs of collapse, Fed trying to tank the economy with interest rate increases the time does not seem ripe to start an economic war with Saudi Arabia unless an economic collapse is what is wanted

Trumps rhetoric against the Fed at this time makes me wonder. Have the global elite decided on a change to the current economic system? If so, what changes might it be ? You know its not going to be better given who will make the changes. Can Carbon Tax and a Carbon Dollar be far off?


IPCC has also just come out with another global warming scare attack. Seems like a 240 dollar a gallon tax (2.4 trillion a year)is needed to fight climate change. Nobody will be able to afford oil/gas, industrial civilization comes to an end, living standards plummet, depopulation begins. Might this be the game plan? Any relation with the Khasoggi event which is looking like a triggering event of some sort

No idea. This article by Engdahl worth a read talking about underlying motivations of the neomalthisian elite

http://www.williamengdahl.com/englishNEO16Oct2018.php

Posted by: Pft | Oct 16, 2018 9:23:57 PM | 98

@ jsb | Oct 16, 2018 11:52:34 AM | 46

Thank you jsb. I am interested in the blundering clown prince and his absolute burning of bridges in front of his path. If this regime trembles then Jordan is likely to to get dementia and that is a bad bad thing for immediate stability but a mighty good opening for change.

MBS shakedown of the entire cabal of saudi princedom was vulgar and brutal and I suspect their revenge (if they are ever again capable) will be swift and certain.

Trump and his gold toothed rats appear to be assisting the Saudis to escape down a rabbit hole. Watch for a few public executions.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Oct 16, 2018 9:38:45 PM | 99

This could be quite the economic disaster if the Prince holds onto power. Lindsey Graham is acting like he is going to sanction the Saudis into oblivion. McCain dies and he grows a pair of brass balls? What is the world coming to? The Saudis proudly overpay generously for US weapons systems which they must stuff in some warehouses somewhere in the desert.

One wonders, the prince takes power and locks a bunch of princes up and beats one of his generals to death in a hotel...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/06/how-saudi-elite-became-five-star-prisoners-at-the-riyadh-ritz-carlton

I will chalk it up to a millennial mad with power and money. Sort of a reverse Socialist Marxist who really does not have that many enemies to kill or stuff into a gulag but will kill what few he has. Any other avenue leads to a room with many mirrors and no exit.

Posted by: dltravers | Oct 16, 2018 9:46:47 PM | 100

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