Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 18, 2018

Syria - Israel's Provocation Kills Russian Soldiers - Moscow Will Take Political Revenge

Yesterday Turkey and Russia agreed on a further de-escalation in Idelb province in Syria (see the update here). This agreement takes away the chance of an imminent wider war in which the U.S. and some of its allies would use a fake 'chemical attack' as a pretext to launch missiles against a large number of Syrian government targets and military positions.

A peaceful solution of the Idleb situation is unsatisfying for Israel. The successful Syrian defeat of the Jihadi enemy inside the country would allow Syria and its allies to concentrate their forces against Israel. Israel wants the Syrian government destroyed and the country in chaos.

On Sunday September 16 Israel tried to hit an Iranian Boeing 747 freight plane at Damascus airport. The plane allegedly carried an Iranian copy of the Russian S-300 long range air defense System for the Syrian army.

On Monday around 10:00pm local time 4 F-16 jets of the Israeli airforce, coming from the sea, launched missiles against at least three targets on Syria's coast. The strike came only hours after Israel released satellite images of what it called "strategic targets" in Syria. The integrated Syrian and Russian air-defenses responded.

The Israeli air force had warned the Russian forces in Syria only one minute before the strike. A Russian IL-20 electronic warfare airplane (red line) was preparing to land at the Russian airport near Latakia just as the Israeli attack (blue) happened.


Source: Russian defense Ministry - bigger
The IL-20 was hit 35 kilometers off the coast by a S-200 air-defense missile fired by the Syrian military towards the Israeli attack. There were 15 Russian soldiers on board of the plane which were likely all killed. Russian ships search for survivors. Some wreckage of the plane was found at sea 27 kilometers west of the village of Banias.

IL-20 electronic warfare version - bigger

The Israeli attack came out of the same direction as the Russian IL-20. The large 4 propeller plane creates a much bigger radar reflection than the small F-16s fighter jets. The S-200 missiles have a semi-active radar homing seeker. These are passive detectors of a radar signal which is provided by an external source, in this case the Syrian and Russian radars on the ground. While the missile was aimed at the F-16 its seeker likely mistook the larger radar reflection of IL-20 for the intended target.

At the same time as the Israeli air force attacked, a Russian frigate (red) near the coast detected missile launches from the French Frigate Auvergne (blue) nearby. The French frigate carries air, ship and land attack missiles. France denied "any involvement in the incident." But it seems that this only referred to the IL-20 incident and was not a denial of missile launches.

Even more was going on says Haaretz:

Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns – most likely to avoid being somehow involved in the exchange of fire over Latakia.

The Russian Defense Ministry accuses the Israeli government of a deliberate set up:

"Israel did not warn the command of the Russian troops in Syria about the planned operation. We received a notification via a hotline less than a minute before the strike, which did not allow the Russian aircraft to be directed to a safe zone," Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said.

After the Israeli attack the Syrian state TV showed the headquarters of the Technical Industries Agency near Latakia on fire. Other targets were near Jableh, south of Latakia, and Homs. At least ten people were wounded due to these attacks.

The Russian military spokesman also accused Israel of "hostile action" against Russian forces:

"We see these provocative actions of Israel as hostile," Konashenkov said, adding that 15 Russian servicemen were killed as a result of the "irresponsible actions" of Israel's Defense Forces, which violated "the spirit of the Israeli-Russian partnership."
According to the spokesman, the Russian Defense Ministry reserves the right to an "adequate response" following the Israeli attack.

Israel (and France?) are deliberately provoking the Syrian and Russian forces. It hopes for a response that allows it to play the victim and to call on U.S. President Trump for help and protection. The help would come in the form of a U.S., British and French attack on the Syrian government and Syrian military targets.

Russia will certainly take revenge for the Israeli provocation, but will likely do so in the political arena. On Netanyahoo's personal request Russia had stopped the delivery of original Russian S-300 long range air-defense missiles to the Syrian military. These would have been less likely to veer off towards the wrong target. In consequence an Iranian 747 was damaged and 15 Russian soldiers were killed. Netanyahoo can forget about any further such 'favors' from Moscow.

Posted by b on September 18, 2018 at 10:09 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Ike

His info was that 10% of Russian's in Israel that were eligible to vote cast ballots in the Russian election.

He didn't claim that 10% of Russians were Jewish.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 19 2018 1:01 utc | 201

Harry@177

“Russia hasnt done either. End result? There will be MORE dead Russian soldiers in the future. Why Israel thinks it can bomb Syria 200x in last few years and get away with it? Because Russia doesnt allow Syria to defend themselves. Why Israel doesnt bomb Lebanon since 2006? Because they KNOW they would be in the World of hurt if they do. Russia should have done the same in Syria, but they overplayed "but Israel are our best buds!" hand and got screwed in the process. If Russia doesnt stop Israel even now, guess what happens next? Exactly, more dead Russians (and Syrians, Iranians, etc).”

Sadly this is true. The Israelis have no respect for life and they only understand force but FUKUS would back down if Israel got hurt from their actions. Putin has too many Jewish allies in Russia and too many Israeli Jews are Russian Jews so he plays nice while Israel kills Russians. It’s best Putin arm Syria and her allies so they can end Israel’s impunity. Damage to Israel is the Achilles heel of FUKUS. Give Syria and Iran air defenses and they will deal with Israel and thus FUKUS.

Posted by: Alaric | Sep 19 2018 1:03 utc | 202

From Jose Garcia comment above: "War is for warmongers who never experience the hell they so desire."

Serious followers of MoA understand that we are at a watershed time and reactive measures are never effective when downing a delusional foe in the throes of death.

Putin knows that this is a proxy fight over ongoing global power and control which empire is losing, not by being beat, but by being seen clearly as a social cancer that is metastasizing.
Yes, we all should offer condolences for the Russians that have died in this incident. I expect that if truth be known that more military than those number of Russians have died in the past 24 hours. Should any of those deaths be a reason to start a nuclear war?

I have said this before and some seem to not understand. The social organization of the West is an aggressive one that thrives on conflict. They cannot continue to exist without war and that is what Putin is denying them.

The West needs to die of its own internal contradictions and it seems to be doing so quite nicely as Russia and China let it flail as harmlessly as possible on the way down.......no nukes......yes, more unfortunate deaths as the beast is hemmed in further and further.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 19 2018 1:06 utc | 203

Just to reinforce the notion that a retaliatory display of force by Russia might bring about the R2P response the FUKUS is angling for. If the Israeli F-16s really pulled off the feint that caused an onside goal by the SAA, well, quite the maneuvre, be it luck or sheer gall.

For all the Putin bashing going on, he appears to be the one riding the tiger. Taking on the entirety of the NATO-zionist alliance without support from China at the very least would undoubtedly be apocalyptic. Let the rooks and bishops set the trap.

Posted by: Stumpy | Sep 19 2018 1:07 utc | 204

The Russians have to draw a heavy price in blood. There is no other way.

Posted by: Ivan | Sep 19 2018 1:23 utc | 205

pogohere@170 thanks for the added info...i know just enough about these systems to be thinking its official statements are BS...it leaves me with an uneasy feeling about VPutin on this one...and i find him otherwise to be an admirable and talented statesmen...what i suspect he is doing here, i find to be very distasteful, even if it may be shrewd...the offhanded aquiescence to the Wests propaganda, is extraordinarily disrespectful of his militaries sacrifices...some in his government will find out the truth of the matter, and Mr Putin will have some serious internal blowback to try to manage...
I wish Paveway was around, he has the expertise on military equipment and is very current...I would like to hear his analysis on this event//

thanks again

OY

Posted by: oldenyoung | Sep 19 2018 1:39 utc | 206

Re: Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 18, 2018 9:01:13 PM | 200

Exactly right.

It'd be more accurate to say that about 10% of "Russians" are Muslim than Jewish.

Posted by: Julian | Sep 19 2018 2:01 utc | 207

@205 oldenyoung.. check smoothies article, and in particular the comments also in the comment section..

http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/russia-loses-recce-il-20-in-syria.html

Posted by: james | Sep 19 2018 2:06 utc | 208

Concerning Russia's next moves. It seems to me that between Putin and Shoigu, Russia immediately moved to present zero reason to react, and a total range of options to react, both at the same time. Russia has drawn a full hand of cards for whatever it chooses to do. Everyone can now wait, and nothing they do can change whatever Russia does. And everyone knows this.

I do admire what one commenter here said, that Putin does Diplomacy while Shoigu does Trouble.

As b reported, Putin has said the MOD's statement reflects the position of Russia and that it is fully coordinated with him. Putin himself has absolved Israel of an act of war, and removed any tension for that kind of response. Therefore the relationship between Israel and Russia can continue, and it will thus be up to Israel to maintain the smile as Russia upgrades its control of the airspace. The immediate response, as Putin says, will be to reinforce the protection of Russians in Syria - this can only mean by air.

The cards that the MOD drew, meanwhile, call Israel's act "hostile" and point out that the Israeli pilots could not have missed seeing the Russian plane, and thus deliberately hid behind it. Although b linked to the Sputnik report of this, it may help for a visceral understanding of Russia's take to watch Konashenkov deliver his statement. A two minute clip from Vesti News:

Official Statement from MoD on Downing Russian Il-20 Aircraft

The military will move to protect its soldiers from Israel. That's the next visible move. Whatever that takes, and in whatever form is effective. Nothing else is changed. France or the US don't seem to figure in the surface statements anywhere. Israel however is in the sights, and has disqualified itself from having any standing to protest at whatever restrictions Russia places on it.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 19 2018 2:07 utc | 209

No one is talking about the Russian claim that they detected launches from a French frigate. The Russian gov later said the Israeli F-16s used the french frigate for cover.

This is sort of a big deal. If the Israelis launched missiles from nearby the French frigate (FS Auvergne)then this was an attempt by Israel to get Russia or Syria to hit a NATO vessel which is sick but certainly within the realm of possibilities when you are dealing with Israel. If that is the case (i don't know maybe, maybe not) then Israel just failed spectacularly and Russia and France would know what Israel tried.

Posted by: alaric | Sep 19 2018 2:08 utc | 210

Smoothies last update on the shootdown is a link to a Russian news site where an ex Ru airforce type says the Syrian air defences that are integrated with the Russian air defences , don't have friend or foe recognition.
Syrian air defences have been responding to US and Israeli missile attacks for some time now. When the missiles are coming in they don't sit down and have a smoke and wait for all Russian aircraft to land. They respond instantly and there has never been a recognition problem. Russians fully upgraded Syrian air defences and don't allow them to recognize Russian aircraft... bullshit. The US and Israeli's engineered the takedown of the Russian aircraft.
Stumpy's take "riding the tiger" seems apt.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 2:27 utc | 211

@ Grieved with the link to the Russian military response...thanks

I agree with you that despite the loss of life, this further closes the container within which Israel can act. I expect Russia/Syria to further restrict the airspace and force Israel to attempt even riskier attacks.

The moments of truth will come when/if Israel starts losing its jets to failed attacks Will they go nuclear to avoid losing face over their self inflicted demise?

I guess the good part about this situation is that change like this provides opportunity for growth where none existed before. The yet to see part is whether humanity takes the opportunity to evolve or stay mired it the evolutionary dead end it is in.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 19 2018 2:46 utc | 212

Interview posted today from Syria by Vanessa Beeley:

https://youtu.be/UA651DWgDi8

Posted by: jsb | Sep 19 2018 3:11 utc | 213

I very much doubt that the Russian leadership will somehow seriously answer Israel. The spinelessness of Russian politics sometimes simply amaze (it's worth recalling, for example, the epic with the seizure of Russian diplomatic property by the US authorities - there was no intelligible answer from Russia, and still(!) there's no answer).
...
Posted by: alaff | Sep 18, 2018 5:37:06 PM | 173

No answer is necessary. Seizing a foreign embassy was an (unforgettable) violation of International Law and long-standing, unanimously-respected principles of Diplomacy.
It was a public display of ultra-infantile Yankee Dumbfuckery.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 19 2018 3:49 utc | 214

I hadn't seen this quote from Putin but I could have missed it with the troll volume this has brought to MoA

"
MOSCOW, Sept. 18 (Xinhua) -- Operations of the Israeli air force are undertaken in violation of Syria's sovereignty, Russian President Vladimir Putin told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu by phone on Tuesday.
"

It goes on to say that he intends on protecting Russian forces. I read this to say that he intends on insuring that Syria has the ability to defend its sovereignty....including airspace.

Will Israel try more incursions before that capability is in place? Stupid is as stupid does applies to all humans and no ethnicity is excluded.

When does the world get to deal with the base issue of private/public finance? Any alien watching our world turn would laugh at our inability to observe, let alone self manage out of our parasitic social organization.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 19 2018 4:06 utc | 215

Julian@206

Yes. According to the Times of Isreal there are 250,000 Jews living in Moscow. With a population over 11 million thats about 2.5%. Elsewhere the numbers are lower. About 1/3 of the Jewish population in Moscow have Israeli citizenship (83000). Of the 200 richest people in Russia, 25% are Jewish according to some reports. So their power is perhaps greater than their numbers as is seen elsewhere . This is neither good or bad of course unless the power is used to support Israel over their country of residence/citizenship

Posted by: Pft | Sep 19 2018 4:11 utc | 216

I wish the Russians would shoot the Zionist oppressors down the moment they leave Israeli airspace.

Posted by: Fidelios Automata | Sep 19 2018 4:20 utc | 217

I do love Putin's style...almost poetic, certainly high drama. When he says this seems to have been a most unfortunate string of events leading to this tragedy--when the Israelis know good and goddamn well it wasn't, and they goddamn well know he knows it wasn't--I can hardly imagine anything more blood curdling to those treacherous bastards. What dread they must feel!

That this was a carefully crafted provocation is hard to dispute. Actually, I was fearing something serious ever since Russia made it's presentation of false flag preparations to the UNSC a week or two ago. There was plenty of ridicule, to the effect that what did Russia hope to gain, and how could it possibly prove iFUKUS was directly involved with the terrorists, and look how the warned attack wasn't materializing. Well I have a suspicion the evidence was damning indeed, and extremely thorough. Did you notice that there were none of the usual mocking leaks by the West about Russia's presentation? And lo and behold, a few days later the Hailey and the rest of the US officialdom suddenly declared that a chemical attack wasn't necessary after all for iFUKUS to spring into action and flatten Syria. ANY ATTACK ON IDLIB AT ALL would be enough to merit an attack by the West. Almost as an afterthought they started talking about their deep concern for the long-suffering civilians and lovable terrorists. And then I'll be damned if Russia and Turkey weren't able to work out an understanding on Idlib that would help protect civilians!! (Well...)

It was clear from all this that a significant provocation would have to be supplied, and pretty quickly. Now we know what it was. We don't know exactly what was SUPPOSED to happen...that French frigate firing at precisely that time and location is very interesting, and perhaps the hope was that Russian defenses would have immediately launched an ASM at the frigate, and away we go! The war would have escalated so sideways so fast only curious historians would have ever looked back at the Israeli F-16s and strange failures-to-warn and said "hmmm." No, it was a NATO+ operation of considerable planning and coordination. And while what others have commented about this placing additional domestic pressure on Putin will undoubtedly prove true, for 20+ years he has proven up to the task. So with no immediate response, it is the Israelis who are left holding the bag and now attempt to slink away with a weak non-apology, and it is they who they know will feel the heat that is to come--who knows what and from who knows where, but it will come. At the very least Russia will no doubt greatly increase their and Syria's AA defenses, and I could see it being a very extensive no-fly zone. But I'm pretty sure that won't be the only price Israel pays...and it couldn't happen to a more deserving pack of weasels.

Posted by: J Swift | Sep 19 2018 4:31 utc | 218

If it were up to me, I would blast the next Israeli aircraft I saw on radar out of the sky, no matter what it was doing, supposing it was pushing bales of flowers out its cargo door. Unannounced, no warning, just turn it into a fireball. Then I would say, "Oops! That was an accident! Gosh, what a tragedy!" The technique seems to work very well for the Israelis - no reason it shouldn't work for everyone else, and the message should be clear.

Israel is the biggest troublemaker in the Middle East. But that should not be a surprise to anyone; it is, after all, the purpose for which the Jewish homeland was created.

Posted by: Mark | Sep 19 2018 4:32 utc | 219

Here is a report from ZH about Trump being quoted from a speech in Poland as saying,

"We’re very close to being finished with that job,” he said of the fight there against ISIS. “And then we’re going to make a determination as to what we’re going to do.”

The there is Syria, of course

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 19 2018 4:39 utc | 220

Eerie Russian media silence on the il20 shoot down. The headlines were filled up and were pushed down by other irrelevant or complete s**t articles. As well there's a blackout of ongoing investigation of the event that is still developing right now.

This is perhaps already Russian USS liberty right there.

Posted by: cbrown | Sep 19 2018 4:47 utc | 221

@108 grieved.. thanks for that 2 minute video on russian command attitude about israel's responsibility.. the response is clear and firm..

@210 peter.au.. from smoothies post "Syrian AD didn't have IFF codes, which Russia (understandably) didn't want to provide. So, that means the integration with SAA's AD is done by simpler protocols."

i asked smoothie about this and here is his response - "I will try to concoct something readable starting tomorrow. But, IFF is an electronic Interrogation "Friend-Foe" system which prevents "friendly fire" and allows to identify on radar where are "friendlies" and where are bogies by different means (marks, color, notes etc.). In older radar "friendly" marks were small arches underneath (on some above) radar mark of the target. Export variant S-200 (and that is precisely what Syria used) are not equipped with IFF blocks compatible (because of high sensitivity of the technology) with Russian assets."

i am curious.. are you saying bullshit to what smoothie says here?

Posted by: james | Sep 19 2018 4:49 utc | 222

i apologize if it has already been posted, but it is worth the read ..elijah j. magnier.. Russia, USA, Israel, Iran and Syria: a continuous struggle to trigger or avoid war

Posted by: james | Sep 19 2018 5:03 utc | 223

@james, bullshit to the piece smoothie has linked to which he has taken the information from. Russia are operating aircraft constantly in Syria. Syrian air defence must have and does have the capability to react instantly to an attack. Russia have fully upgraded the systems and integrated them with their own.
Under these circumstances, do find you it conceivable that the Russian upgrade would not allow the Syrian radars to determine friend (Russian, Syrian aircraft) or foe. From my understanding it is the radar or control system that determines friend or foe, not the missile.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 5:08 utc | 224

Governments don't care about people, period. Russia is no different. Putin has to think long term. A handful of soldiers and a plane or two is not a big loss. Turkey is a big price to have on team Russia. Think about gas pipelines to EU, black sea and Ukraine, not just Syria. It's a balancing act with many goals and they of course diverge from what Damascus wants. But like one commenter said, Putin is inching closer and closer to all the goals while FUKUS and Israel throws tantrums and monkey wrenches in desperation.

Posted by: KarlAnderson | Sep 19 2018 5:16 utc | 225

@ 200 Jackrabbit
Quite right. I will have to read more carefully.

Posted by: Ike | Sep 19 2018 5:16 utc | 226

How wide is the beam of the targeting radar.
Senario - going by the Russian mod map the Israeli planes come in behind and to one side of the Russian plane and launches missiles. Syrian targeting radar locks onto the missiles and launch SAMs. The Israeli missiles heading towards the coast further north cross behind the Russian aircraft which is also briefly illuminated by the targeting radar. If by that time the Syrian SMS are in close proximity, a second or so of illumination as the radar is tracking the missiles is all it would take

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 5:22 utc | 227

@213 psychohistorian - who wonders how long Israel can act as a fool (while the whole world continues to ignore the "base issue of private/public finance?")

I think it's really important to remember how thin the slices of escalation are. We have continually been schooled in this by Russia. Russia doesn't operate on the Hollywood scale of proportion of "one dumb white-hat punch versus one equally dumb black-hat punch". This is the unreality in which we in the west have previously been schooled.

Instead, Russia acts as if everything were very real and very serious. She acts in the slow movement of cats, or samurai warriors, when they face each other. Somewhere in the choreography is the killing blow, but where will it strike? Where will it land? Neither cats nor samurai fighters know. So they slice each movement very thin.

There is no straight line from where we are today to where we might wish to be tomorrow. There will be innumerable slices of escalation and play and counter-play as the dialog of violence talks itself through its many paces.

We should not wish to hurry the day when everyone in the world agrees that Russia has won a supreme victory that marks a turning point in the story of the human race. We should instead - if I may offer the suggestion - relish the small certainties of each day along this measured path.

And this is just as regards Syria. But you could extend it to your overarching point too.

~~

As to this other, I suspect the answer to your unending advocacy for human finance will sprout unnoticed from the ground, far away from the battlefields, as an authentic alternative that first they will ignore, then laugh at, then fight against, and then yield to as it wins.

Please never stop advocating for this. You're right that it underlies everything. The reminder is important. Sometimes you have to overturn a paradigm by hand-cranking the wheel.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 19 2018 5:24 utc | 228

Perhaps what the Russians ought to do is open an investigation into the incident in which the Ilyushin transport plane was shot down and require all parties involved to attend as witnesses.

It would be in Israel's best interests then to surrender its fighter jet pilots who sheltered in the transport plane's radar shadow into Russian custody to give their point of view and explain their motives and behaviour. After all, the investigation would be as much to clear Israel of any blame if the pilots were to admit that they were not acting on orders.

If Israel were to refuse to surrender the pilots, then that reaction could be read by the Russians to mean that Israel bears guilt for the transport plane's shootdown.

Incidentally did anyone notice that what the fighter pilots did was exactly the same as what Ukrainian fighter jets were doing to civilian passenger jets during the Donbass war in 2014?

Posted by: Jen | Sep 19 2018 5:25 utc | 229

Ah well the contortions are amusing. Instead of seeking to justify Putin's spinless politicking, the staunch russiaphiles would be smarter to use this debacle as proof the Russian prez doesn't march in lockstep with the alleged russian equivalent of a deep state.
The russian military whose primary responsibility is to safeguard their troops are in no doubt that Israel should have copped a few slaps for their cringing impertinence, but Putin who is confident he has the zionist vote 'sewn up' and who doesn't want the sort of trouble the old politburo copped from the refuseniks won't do a thing lest the unlikely event of a more pro-zionist smooth-talking pol be 'discovered' in Russia by the zionist stirrers.
I reckon Putin is like an old general considering everything in terms of previous campaigns, I doubt the zionists have much pull anywhere outside the immediate Putin circle and he really hasn't much to worry about on that score. The zionists know damn well that the odds of them finding a russian pol more obeisant to israel who can also garner the support of other russians are lower than a snake's belly.
IMO if you are ok with this latest development you are defacto supporting a point of view that declares the apartheid state a set in stone reality that must be accepted. A Syria that doesn't stand up to israel is a eunuch state as corrupt and useless as Saudi or egypt yet that appears to be what Putin is aiming for.
All politicians are corrupt lying vote seducers and Putin is no exception.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 19 2018 5:29 utc | 230

At this point, and in the absence of any evidence, I'm inclined to think the French frigate was unwittingly used by the Israeli's as cover, with the intention to draw fire on the frigate. How do those French sailors feel about being only a flick of a switch from incineration?

The only lingering question is what was the French frigate doing their in the first place?

Posted by: cdvision | Sep 19 2018 5:31 utc | 231

Grieved "Russia doesn't operate on the Hollywood scale of proportion of "one dumb white-hat punch versus one equally dumb black-hat punch". This is the unreality in which we in the west have previously been schooled."

That is what I am seeing here and on other comment threads. A majority expecting Russia to be a hollywood white hat and booing them if they don't measure up to hollywood.

The rest of your post equally as good as that line.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 5:36 utc | 232

Debsisdead

Putin's statement to the press
"First of all, I would like to express condolences to the families of the dead.

As for your comparison with the downing of our plane by a Turkish fighter, this was a different situation. The Turkish fighter deliberately shot down our aircraft.

In this case, it is more a chain of tragic circumstances because an Israeli fighter did not down our aircraft. It goes without saying that we must get to the bottom of this. Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me.

As for reciprocal action, this will be primarily aimed at ensuring additional security for our military and our facilities in the Syrian Arab Republic. These steps will be seen by everyone."
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58586

Note "Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me."

Plenty of links to the statement by the spokesman for the ministry of defence in this thread, also Shoigu's phone call to Lieberman.

Nutty's phone call to Putin..
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/58589
The Israeli Prime Minister expressed his condolences over the death of the 15 servicemen aboard the Il-20 aircraft shot down in Syria on September 17. With respect to a thorough investigation, Benjamin Netanyahu promised to provide detailed information on the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Syrian territory on that day, which will be delivered soon to Moscow by the Israeli Air Force commander.

Vladimir Putin noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future.


Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 5:54 utc | 233

@ Grieved with the words of encouragement for my one note Samba of public finance..thanks

I am not hand cranking the paradigm handle but simply reporting on its movement.

China, Russia and others are doing the cranking on the paradigm handle, thankfully for the rest of us.

The sooner "we" wake up and adjust to the new evolving paradigm the sooner the anti-humanistic old paradigm will lose its appeal and go away.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 19 2018 5:58 utc | 234

Well, you know that Israel f**ked up and went too far when the Zionist trolls come out to play.

Just look at how many new names have appeared in this thread, and all pushing the same line: forget about what Israel did, look instead at how week Putin looks.

Putin, Putin, Putin, Putin, but for goodness sake don't mention Israel.

Here's a thought: if you are flying a fighter jet and you hide behind an unarmed honking-big turboprop plane then how, exactly, is that materially different to soldiers who use unarmed men as human shields?

Either way, it strikes me as a coward's way of fighting.

You know, the way the IDF fights...

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 19 2018 6:32 utc | 235

just checking up on this Fake News. I thought somebody posted a photos, or a clips of the "founded" IL-20 but nothing. Lots of gibberish. But I understand having a fun is also important, as if people are longing and inviting "news" like this.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 6:42 utc | 236

RT is quite relax, nothing on their web page, nothing. complete crew along with spy plane loaded with secret electronics vanished (shot down!?) and the Russian's government outlet is a mum. Go figure.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 6:48 utc | 237

Paul Craig Roberts who is one of Putins biggest supporters is displeased in his latest article. Its been brewing for awhile.

Regardless of where you stand on him, at some point we should be wondering if Israel/US has Kompromat on him. I have speculated on a few occasions that Putin might be controlled and this Cold War II is just a mutually beneficial fiction to feed the respective MIC and maintain/increase power.

Recently read that Russia is planning to criminalize fake news. Obviously empowered by peoples concern of western influence but as we all know such powers can be abused .

Posted by: Pft | Sep 19 2018 6:49 utc | 238

ah, yes..."Russia reserve the right to answer..."

anybody remember, "Are you being served"?

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 6:52 utc | 239

Posted by: Ace Hanlon | Sep 18, 2018 10:47:57 AM | 66

Putin did.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 19 2018 6:56 utc | 240

maybe there were language barrier between the Syrian's operators of s-200 and the russian's crew of IL-20?

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 6:58 utc | 241

The Russian military is a defensive one to guard the homeland. Outside of Russia their military is at a disadvantage against the US, NATO, and Israel and they know it. With the US and it's bootlickers using every excuse in the book to sanction and destroy the Russian economy thus the nation Putin has to walk a fine line between all parties and can only spare a small force, which has done excellent work, in Syria. Putin knows full well the Israelis and the US are just begging for an excuse to wipe out the Russian force in Syria thus Putin has to take the punches and use his wits unlike the exceptional American keyboard warriors from the one indispensable nation on the planet who's answer to everything is brute force. One only has to see the results in Syria since the Russians have arrived and agree they have done a remarkable job even with the US backing and supplying the rebels. Russia is in Syria looking out for it's interests and it has no obligation to defend anyone as there is no country on the planet save China that would go to bat for Russia. Most any other country would have buckled and destroyed itself from within with the stuff the US and it's bootlickers have thrown at it but Russia is continuing to thrive thanks to Putin's focus on his country and people and countering those that wish to destroy Russia using his brains against stupid US brawn. As one commentor has said the world should be thankful for Putin's restraint as it's kept WW3 at bay.

Posted by: snedly arkus | Sep 19 2018 7:02 utc | 242

add to 237

Official statement on the telephone conversation between Putin and Netanyahu.

Vladimir Putin noted that operations of this nature by the Israeli Air Force are in violation of Syria's sovereignty. In this particular case, Russian-Israeli agreements on preventing dangerous incidents had not been observed either, and that resulted in the Russian aircraft coming under Syrian air defence fire. The Russian President called on the Israeli side to prevent such incidents in the future.

And - How Russia can respond to Israel following Ilyushin Il20 shootdown

Posted by: somebody | Sep 19 2018 7:11 utc | 243

syrian operator to a russian pilot: العربية
a russian pilot: Спасибо

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 7:17 utc | 244

"Any resemblance to reality is purely coincidental"

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-18/norway-officials-admit-they-knew-nothing-about-libya-joined-regime-change-efforts

Top Norwegian officials have now admitted they "had very limited knowledge" of events unfolding in Libya during 2010 and 2011, prior to NATO's military intervention on behalf of anti-Gaddafi rebels — a war that resulted in regime change and a failed state ruled by competing governments and extremist militias to this day. Norway enthusiastically joined the US, UK, and French led bombing of the country initiated in March 2011 even knowing full well its military knew next to nothing of what was unfolding on the ground.

But what did decision-makers have to go on? Consider this absurd admission from the official report: “In such situations, decision-makers often rely on information from media and other countries,” the report reads.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 7:26 utc | 245

More result of the appeasment by Putin:

Trump mulls idea of permanent US military base in Poland, says Warsaw ‘likes it very much’
https://www.rt.com/news/438771-us-poland-fort-trump/

Posted by: Zanon | Sep 19 2018 7:27 utc | 246

Russia is on reasonable terms with Israel and recognizes the state of Israel. Russia is on good terms with both Iran and Syria and recognizes their legitimate governments and is insuring that the Syrian state is not destroyed by Israel US. Neither Syria nor Iran recognize the state of Israel. Russia does not interfere in Iran Syrian actions against Israel nor does it interfere in Israel direct actions against Syria Iran - till now. Russia has been the mediator.
Until now Israel has not risked burning its bridges with Russia. Now Nutty sends his airforce chief running off to Moscow with an olive branch in his mouth and another stuck in his arse for good measure.
Is Nutty trying to pull a swifty or are US zionists trying to burn Nutty's bridge with Moscow...

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 7:28 utc | 247

NATO's name for the operation was the US code name ‘Operation Odyssey Dawn,’ and Norway flew 596 strike missions during the first five months of the NATO intervention, dropping 588 bombs on Libyan targets, according to the report. Norway had provided six F-16 fighter jets and its pilots were reported to have conducted 10 percent of all coalition strikes against pro-Gaddafi forces.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 7:31 utc | 248

love these Scandinavian freedom and human right people and their naivety.

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 7:36 utc | 249

@partizan 242,245,246

You are indeed correct to point his out. Remember, the word Quisling was invented here. As for our former PM Stoltenberg, now NATO chief, he is the ultimate hypocrite. His best 'defense' is that most likely they have something on him. The happenings of 22. July 2011 was a turning point. The victims within his party were advocating boycott of Israel the day before on that very island.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 19 2018 7:58 utc | 250

@ Peter AU 1 | 244

Russia does not interfere in Iran Syrian actions against Israel nor does it interfere in Israel direct actions against Syria Iran - till now.

I beg to differ. Russia is going out of his way to protect Israel from SAA and Iran, and does nothing to protect the latter from Israel. This policy just got Russia burned, and as I guessed at the beginning of thread - there wont be overt Russia's reaction, neither military nor political. Under the table Israel probably will offer some concesion, thats about it.

There wont be S-300 delivery to Syria, there wont be any brake on Syria's bombing, Israel will just promise "to better communicate to avoid Russian casualties." Want to bet otherwise?

Posted by: Harry | Sep 19 2018 8:02 utc | 251

Harry 248
I'll take the bet. What're we putting up.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 8:23 utc | 252

@ Peter AU 1 Public admission on MoA that I or you were right sounds good? We also should set up a timeframe, 1 or 2 months? If Russia wont deliver S-300 (announcement about near future delivery is fine too) and Israel will continue bombing - I win, if I'm wrong - you do.

Posted by: Harry | Sep 19 2018 8:31 utc | 253

Putin's Forfeit - From Strategic Mistake to Strategic Defeat in 24 Hours

http://johnhelmer.net/putins-forfeit-from-strategic-mistake-to-strategic-defeat-in-24-hours/

Posted by: John Gilberts | Sep 19 2018 8:35 utc | 254

Harry
Public admission on right or wrong is no problems.
S-300 - much depends on how low Israel is willing to crawl. The more subservient to Russia Israel becomes, the less chance that Russia will supply an S-300 to Syria.
After Turkey shot down the Russian plane then kowtowed, Russia has signed a deal for the S-400 with Turkey. The Israeli attack it seems was due to Turkey reaching an agreement with Russia on Idlib.
How about using future Israeli attacks in SAA territory as a gauge.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 8:44 utc | 255

@ Peter AU 1

S-300 - much depends on how low Israel is willing to crawl. The more subservient to Russia Israel becomes, the less chance that Russia will supply an S-300 to Syria.

I'm telling you, S-300 to Syria wont happen anytime soon, maybe after war is fully finished, if then. Nor Israel will stop bombing Syria. Hence our bet.

After Turkey shot down the Russian plane then kowtowed, Russia has signed a deal for the S-400 with Turkey.

Thats the irony, as Russia has no problem selling S-400 to Turkey, Saudis or Israel, it just WONT sell to Syria or Iran. Nice ally we got here..

Posted by: Harry | Sep 19 2018 8:56 utc | 256

Brendan O’Connell has been harping on the theme that Putin and Bibi are best buddies. According to him, Israel ‘acquires’ US tech and sells it to the Russians and the Chinese. He says that Russians living in Israel dominate the high tech sector in Israel and reverse engineer American high tech received by Israel. He is quite insistent that this is the big issue that still goes unrecognized. At the very least, his claims, which may be exaggerated or simply mistaken, should be critically examined. They would go a long way to explaining Putin’s passivity. They point to material and financial considerations—as opposed to ideological or political—as having the uppermost importance, i.e., follow the money. O’Connell suggests that all of these leaders are in bed together and are just playing a game with us rubes. He’s quite the cynic, but also quite entertaining.

Posted by: Jeremy | Sep 19 2018 9:17 utc | 257

The main foreign policy issue of concern to Netanyahu is removing Iranian forces (how ever insignificant they are) from Syria. Netanyahu has been able to rely on some support from Putin for this up until now. How much longer?
As for all the idiotic (IQ < 25) losers trolling here, as Clausewitz said, "war is the mere continuation of politics with other means" (not "by other means"), so war is all about politics. As Iraq and Afghanistan have shown recently, you can have the allegedly "most powerful military" in the world but if you don't understand the politics, you will lose, lose and keep on fucking losing. FUKUS have wanted regime change in Damascus for the last several years but it hasn't happened so FUKUS are the fucking losers so far and Putin will now ensure they go on losing.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 19 2018 9:21 utc | 258

Harry, how long would Syria last if Russia handed them the Keys to an S-300 system and walked away. Not long. Russia has inserted themselves into Syria to prevent the destruction of Syria by foreign and proxy forces.
A better gauge than an S-300 is required.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 9:40 utc | 259

Russian interest in the Middle East

- make sure there are no alternative gas pipelines to Europe
- make sure there is no ethnic/religious independence threat to Caucasus region
- sale of arms

Iranian interest in the Middle East
- make sure there is no ethnic/religious independence threat to Iran

Saudi problem with Iran
- ethnic/religious indepence threat of their oil rich region
- the Strait of Hormuz

Israeli problem
- feeling delegitimized and threatened by everybody

So if Middle Easterners could dial down on the threat level ...

Present US interests in the Middle East
- a Christian Zionist electorate
- Saudi money
- sale of arms

Chinese interest in the Middle East
- oil, lots of oil

As long as Saudi Arabia and Iran cannot solve their problem, this rift will be exploited by other powers for their own ends

I probably missed some stuff. But Russian interests are best served by selling to all countries.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 19 2018 9:45 utc | 260

IFF is an add-on pack to the command vehicle in the S200 battery. It is used to inform the battery commander of targets, or targets to avoid, prior to launch.

Once a missile is launched IFF is no longer used.

It is possible that either the SAA S200 battery saw IFF of the IL20 and thought it was spoofed (not unreasonable), or the Israeli aircraft suppressed the IFF response received by the SAA battery.

What is also likely is that the SAA / RuAF integration in air defence is less than optimal.

Posted by: Charles Wood | Sep 19 2018 9:46 utc | 261

Meanwhile back in the real world, the trap that Putin has set for the jihadist losers with the latest agreement is pretty fucking obvious except perhaps to the fuckwit trolls that have infected this site recently.
The Russians have given the jihadists until 15th October, 2018 to leave the demilitarised zone but the jihadists have rejected the agreement on Idlib so they're not going to move. In a month or so the SAA/Russia can slice 15-20km off Idlib any time they like after that with nothing more than a rant from Nikki Haley and some CIF crap. The first 20 km gives the SAA Khan Shaykhoun and Jisr ash-Shugur. Another month and the SAA can quite "legally"*** take the whole southern Idlib. Looks to me like Putin is relying yet again on the complete lack of strategic understand demonstrated by the fuckwits, whoever they might be, backing the jihadists.
Even if the jihadists do pull back, which I doubt, they are stupid enough to breach the ceasefire within a month or so because their imbecilic patrons pay to see "action".

*** - of course, the SAA can legally take Syrian territory any time it likes but FUKUS would disagree and might take illegal actions to prevent it. With the jihadists breaking the Idlib agreement, it would be harder for FUKUS to become involved not that it would necessarily stop them but do they really want a World War in defence of Al Qaeda?.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 19 2018 9:49 utc | 262

add to 257
I forgot the price of oil
Iran OPEC chief: 'Saudi and Russia are taking oil market hostage'
and
Russia tells Washington to Leave Iran Alone

In a plot fit for an award-winning drama series, last week U.S. Secretary of Energy Rick Perry traveled to Moscow to discuss energy topics with Novak. Although no details concerning oil markets were disclosed, these were bound to have been discussed: Perry praised Russia for its readiness to keep oil supply stable just as he warned Moscow to “stop using energy as a weapon.”

In a no less charming puzzle of mixed signals, earlier this week Iran’s OPEC governor accused its friend Russia and foe Saudi Arabia of stealing its market share and enjoying higher oil revenues at Tehran’s expense. A day later, Foreign Ministry spokesman Bahram Quasemi dismissed “media reports” containing these accusations, saying, “We do not agree with some reports of media.”

Everyone involved in this geopolitical dance seems to be walking a thin line between its interests and those of other stakeholders that are at odds with its own.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 19 2018 9:52 utc | 263

Harry and Peter...
I don't think s300's are coming to Syria anytime soon.
I don't think we'll see Israel bombing Syria anytime soon.

I'll stand as arbiter and remind you both in lets say 1 month if you're keen.

Posted by: dan | Sep 19 2018 10:05 utc | 264

Korean defense chiefs sign ‘military pact’ after Kim & Moon adopt denuclearization roadmap
Meanwhile, over on the Korean peninsula, it looks like Trump let Moon off the leash to come to an agreement with Kim Jong-Un. While the Washington Fuckwits would clearly like to put a spanner in the works, Trump has the clout to stop them.

Everybody knows the Republicans oppose this but if they want to come out of the mid-terms without losing too much, they can't openly oppose the president. As for Trump's main Republican critic, John McCain, well, he's dead and buried thank God.

As for the Democrats, they will oppose it but the war-weary American public will see the war mongering Democrats for what they really are and will either hold their noses or just stay home.

If you can get good odds from your bookie on the Democrats losing the mid-terms, bet now!

BTW, looks like Trump cancelling Pompeo's visit to Pyongyang was nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 19 2018 10:11 utc | 265

snedly arkus says:

As one commentor has said the world should be thankful for Putin's restraint as it's kept WW3 at bay

yeah, and i'd say it should be thankful in the future should a volley of those ICBMs, always sizzling in their silos, be launched by the lunatic Americans, and Putin yields.

i mean, whatever else you think of the man, he's no psychopath!

Posted by: john | Sep 19 2018 10:20 utc | 266

Harry 253

People still think Russia will give Syria S300, how to wake these people up?

As you say Russia sell it to Nato/Turkey but not Syria or Iran - "nice ally".

The obvious part in all this that Putin is ok with Israel weakening Syria with these bombings so why would he give Syria S300. The question is why he does this, what are the big benefits? Someone claimed israeli lobby is as strong in Russia as it is in the US? Why appease this small regime?

Posted by: Zanon | Sep 19 2018 11:02 utc | 267

@ ike 199 "so the Israel's are killing their own".


unthinkable!

https://www.wrmea.org/2018-august-september/the-dark-secret-of-israels-stolen-babies.html

Posted by: pB | Sep 19 2018 11:48 utc | 268

Posted by: Zanon | Sep 19, 2018 7:02:46 AM | 264

What did Israel hit this time (apart from provoking friendly fire, which they surely did not intend)?

Posted by: somebody | Sep 19 2018 11:51 utc | 269

Putin is the master of cool understatement, and his comment about what a complex chain of accidents were required to lead to this tragedy I took to be dripping with venom. Especially since the Israelis know perfectly well this was intentional, and they know Putin knows. I would say they are extremely nervous right now.

A major provocation was inevitable. The false flag chemical attack was disrupted with apparently magnificent intel. I heard a lot of scoffing when Russia presented evidence to the UNSC, but it must have been unusually damning and conclusive of direct Western collision with the terrorists. Did you notice there were none of the now customary Western leaks mocking the Russian presentation? Not a peep. Suddenly Hailey and the shills just changed their tune, that in fact a chemical attack wasn't necessary for them to act, that any attack at all upon terrorists in Idleb would be sufficient. Belatedly they started mentioning their overwhelming concern for the safety of the citizens, but then Russia and Turkey reached an understanding which would (at least in theory) address that. The neocons and zionists were apoplectic. Something had to be done!

It is hardly debatable that this was a very carefully orchestrated and coordinated NATO+I operation. The West no doubt knew the Russian aircraft's patrol area and customary length of mission so this could be timed for when it was low on fuel and returning to base, its movements most predictable. The French frigate was just where it needed to be to provide cover and fire missiles. We can only guess as to how the operation was supposed to conclude...probably with the hopes that the Russians would assume the French had shot down their plane and fire off an ASM or two (those Brit planes were probably lurking in the background to provide additional cover for the frigate to beat a hasty retreat and provide quick escalatory counter-attack). It was a quite sophisticated neocon war plan. The only thing that failed was the immediate response by Russia. Now Israel is left holding the bag and no doubt extremely nervous about kicking the hornet's nest. We don't know all the ways Russia will respond, but life will become much more difficult for Israeli pilots, and at the very least Russia will "for the good of everyone and to prevent such accidents in the future" more or less close at least a large hunk of Syrian airspace...but I bet there will be all sorts of "accidents" involving Israeli and other Western operatives. Russia has already demonstrated its intel is frightening, I'd say they will use it.

Posted by: J Swift | Sep 19 2018 11:58 utc | 270

add to 266

This is what it is about - pressuring Syria to drop the alliance with Iran.

A Russian-Iranian-Turkish - by extension Syrian - alliance is what they do not want.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 19 2018 11:59 utc | 271

i'm waiting for more developments before i judge what russia's response is. putin isn't trump.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Sep 19 2018 12:09 utc | 272

Jeremy@254

Thanks for the tip on Brendan O’Connell. Do you have a link as I have been thinking along the same lines, which probably make us one of a dozen out of 7 billion 99% ers, or have I understated this? A quick search shows he was jailed for critizing Israel in AU and his blog was shut down. I dont do twitter

Posted by: Pft | Sep 19 2018 12:10 utc | 273

One thing puzzles me:

The IL 20 must have been squawking their assigned transponder code that
would tell Russian Radars that this aircraft is a friend.

Not to long ago, Israeli planes squawked US transponders IDs
so the Russians did not fire at them and they were able to drop their missiles
and return safely home.

In the same vein, if the SAA AD is linked to the Russian radars, how can a
missile guided by this radar go after an aircraft displaying friendly numbers?

What kind of EW were the F-16 using if they got the Russian radars to allow
shooting at an identified Friend?

Then, on approach to a runway, all aircraft will be squawking assigned
transponder codes. Therefore there is something fishy in the narrative
that it was an S200 salvo that downed the IL 20.

Posted by: CarlD | Sep 19 2018 12:50 utc | 274

CarlID@270 i agree...something stinks within the "official" narratives and I probably wont figure it out without getting an analysis from a current mil.spec type that knows the system...smoothie at his blog might be going to help on this///
James@ moa thanks for the link to smoothies piece...found some other good links to chase there as well

regards

OY

Posted by: oldenyoung | Sep 19 2018 13:17 utc | 275

Perer AU 1 @ 108 I wholly agree with Peter. I find the comments on this thread totally out of character with the informed and balanced comments usually found on this site. Russia doesn't do knee-jerk. They analyse, prepare and if necessary act in their best interests (and those of the whole planet) to prevent a wider war. Don't confuse comment for response.

Jackrabbit @ 198 above. For an interesting analysis of this event and the French involvement in it have a look at this: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/ Makes a lot of sense on many levels.

Posted by: Brian | Sep 19 2018 13:26 utc | 276

For all the noise about the Skripals and chemical weapons in Syria, the last thing the British government wants is a war with anyone because unless the government goes straight to thermonuclear weapons, it is fucked if it starts a conventional war with any country other than San Marino*** or Sark. Eight years of austerity and overpriced hardware has gutted the British military until it's little more than a glorified militia which would be locked up by the police if it went with a coup. Back in the 1980s, there was much talk of a military coup in the UK if the Labour Party under Michael Foot won an election. The reduction in the size of the UK military and events in Iraq now mean that anyone suggesting that a military coup might take place in the UK if the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn win the next election would be given a one-way ticket to the funny farm along with Boris Johnson.

As for the rest of NATO, including all the Netherland's tank divisions, it's also pretty well fucked and most likely incapable of organising a piss up in a brewey. NATO can't even do a decent black propaganda operation. Anything more complex, such as a "very carefully orchestrated and coordinated NATO+I operation", forget it

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 19 2018 13:41 utc | 277

Brian at 273: analysis of the French involvement in it; have a look at this: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/ Makes a lot of sense on many levels.

I agree. Flores may have nailed it.

Posted by: Guerrero | Sep 19 2018 13:42 utc | 278

somebody

Israel hit:

In a series of tweets the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) explained that its jets were targeting a Syrian facility “from which systems to manufacture accurate and lethal weapons were about to be transferred on behalf of Iran to Hezbollah in Lebanon.” It claimed that the weapons were “meant to attack Israel.”
https://www.rt.com/news/438712-idf-statement-il20-downing/
An hour-long attack on Latakia began around 10pm local time, and targeted a power station as well as two facilities belonging to the Syrian military. Syrian officials said the attack was “foreign” and came “from the sea,” but could not initially confirm rumors that Israel was behind it. Seven people were injured in the attack, according to Syrian officials.
https://www.rt.com/news/438673-russian-il20-disappears-radars/


Some witness:
‘Rockets falling, explosions over sea’: Witnesses recall moment of Israeli raid in Latakia (VIDEO)
https://www.rt.com/news/438774-israel-raid-syria-witnesses/

Posted by: Zanon | Sep 19 2018 14:06 utc | 279

I just read the following HERE: https://syrianperspective.com/2018/09/stunning-double-ambush-by-af-intel-in-homs-reveals-american-criminal-conduct-attack-on-latakia-still-muddled.html

Whether it's true or false, I can't confirm now.
However, *Igor Bundy* is someone who I believe to be a highly credible source.
Please mind the 'paste job'.
Most Important is YOU see what's been posted the past hour.
>>>>>>>>>>
Igor Bundy

Russia declares no fly zone over Israel coast and northern Israel..

Syrian radar data shows it is not responsible for shooting down the Russian IL20..

comment image

Based on NOTAMs issued by #Russia|n Navy, if an #Israel|i fighter jet wants to fly out of #Israel & even attack #Syria, it must fly above 19,000ft. If flies below, it will be shot-down by Russian S-300F. But flying above 19,000ft will cause their shot-down by #Syria|n S-200s!

#Russia|n Navy “Marshal Ustinov” (055) Slava-class guided missile cruiser which has 64 S-300F surface to air missiles is now sailing in #MediterraneanSea waters NW. of #Israel. However it has blocked airspace over NW of Israel till FL190 but its S-300s are dangerous till FL900!
3 Reply
39 minutes ago
Igor Bundy
Guest
Level 8 - Legatus Legionis
Igor Bundy

#Russia not received data from #Israel on situation with IL-20 in #Syria – Peskov https://sptnkne.ws/j9ce

-#Russia launched an S-400 missile/s against the Israeli jets which were dropping bombs 100Km away, so we’re kept in the dark for now.

-#Russia responded immediately to the attack before the il-20M was lost Because the S-200 missiles were launched 20 min after the first wave.

-The attack lasted about 50 min, so only 4 F-16 doing the bombing is unlikely
0 Reply
28 minutes ago
Igor Bundy
Guest
Level 8 - Legatus Legionis
Igor Bundy

Missing from the Russian map are the two British Air Force planes reported in Israel to have taken off from the Akrotiri airbase in Cyprus, and to have maintained a holding pattern above the flight path of the Israeli F-16 fighter-bombers as they moved into their firing positions.

Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles protect the Khmeimim airbase; their radar and strike ranges are at least 400 kilometres. On Monday evening this meant that Russian air defence crews and the Khmeimim base command tracked the Israeli aircraft from their takeoff positions out into the Mediterranean, and then as they turned north on their attack run. The S-400 crews were also tracking the British aircraft as they took off from Cyprus. When the French frigate Auvergne fired missiles, the S-400 crews at Khmeimim tracked their flight paths.

Subsequent Russian press reports and Defence Ministry releases say the timing of the IDF firing at Latakia, the French missile launches, and the destruction of the Il-20 occurred within seconds of one another.

http://johnhelmer.org/?p=17934
0 Reply
4 minutes ago

Posted by: Veritas X- | Sep 19 2018 14:13 utc | 280

Grieved at 225:We should not wish to hurry the day when everyone in the world agrees that Russia has won a supreme victory that marks a turning point in the story of the human race. We should instead - if I may offer the suggestion - relish the small certainties of each day along this measured path.

Likewise in a chess match, an objective assessment of position rarely admits checkmate.

THE GENIUS

W. Shakespeare

No limit, no space, no horizon;
And leave him drawing from his flight
The gigantic curve in the void.
March on your mission, march; heaven
Does not have the measure
From his wings of fire; the spaces
They shudder at the breath of their life.
Marching is your mission, to go without respite
Of the infinite arcane
Through the dark and eternal path,
Riding, sovereign rider,
On the tame steed of destiny.

Posted by: Guerrero | Sep 19 2018 14:18 utc | 281

More fake news, from the Russian journalist. Interesting comments though.

"Source: #Syrian counterespionage arrested entire 44th air defense battalion, whose S-200 reportedly shot down Russian Il-20"

https://twitter.com/SyriaWarReports/status/1042335555130937346

Posted by: partizan | Sep 19 2018 14:23 utc | 282

just speculating here, but wonder if Putin coddling Israel may refect a hope that Isrsel lobby in response will try to halt the anti Russia frenzy in US and UK? A vain hope to be sure.

Posted by: Ragheb | Sep 19 2018 14:58 utc | 283

This is the only bio I can find on Andrei Martyanov.
Expert on Russian military because he served with the soviet coast guard for a few years. Perhaps. Like Gorbachev, prefers to live in the US.

https://www.claritypress.com/Martyanov.html
"ANDREI MARTYANOV is an expert on Russian
military and naval issues. He was born in Baku,
USSR in 1963. He graduated from the Kirov Naval
Red Banner Academy and served as an officer on
the ships and staff position of Soviet Coast Guard
through 1990. He took part in the events in the
Caucasus which led to the collapse of the Soviet
Union. In mid-1990s he moved to the United States
where he currently works as Laboratory Director in a
commercial aerospace group. He is a frequent
blogger on the US Naval Institute Blog."

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 15:04 utc | 284

@CarlD #148

> I was very unhappy when Pres Putin dismissed the killing of Russian Mercs by
the US by saying that they were "unauthorized individuals", if I am not mistaken.
But lets face it, these were Russians! Working for the good side, at that. Wasn't
their unnecessary deaths worth some solidarity?

At that point Putin was not a person mourning on a funeral, but an official voice of Russia.

Binding Russia to the fate of all "Russian Mercs" would only make sure next day some other Russian mercs would be sold by their bosses - like Khodorkovsky killed his three journalists in Central African Republic month ago - to control Russia and trigger Russia's action someone would pay those mercenaries employees for.

Putin - as Russia's representative and decision-maker - distanced from the event and declared it would not have cause-and-effect bind on Russia.

Inhumane? International politics is inhumane.
Russia is a weak part here comparing to the "free world" gang, so it can not afford giving them contro lchords for the sake of making good public posture.

> Israel has been bombarding Syria with the blessings of the Kremlin all these times.

Do you know what blessing is or did you just catch the opportunity to pick on Russia of all the states?

> If Russia knows every time an Israeli attack is going
to occur on Syria and looks the other way so as not to hinder Israel destructive
work, how much of an ally are they to Bashar el Assad?

Enough of an ally to come and turn the tables in September 2015 despite being distracted at their very borderland.

Maybe Russia is bad ally to Syria, I would be happy for Syrians the day they would find better ally.

> Their presence is therefore limited to fighting the Takfiris and other potential threats to the Russian Motherland.

Maybe. I think cons and pros of every potential goal on Russian list are re-evaluated at least weekly and the list is never fixed once and forever.

However Syria is free to find many more allies than just Iran and Russia. Frankly that new Syrian ally that would take the work to keep Israel at bay would make life for Russian forces in Syria much easier.

> Jordan, Israel, Turkey, the US, France, England, Saudi Arabia, Qatar et tutti quanti may abuse Syria ad libitum and ad nauseam. This is of no concern to the Russians.

How exactly would they do it? By sending those very Takfiris that Russia destroys?

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 19 2018 15:04 utc | 285

Nobody mentioned that a Russian SIGINT plane , a very specialised one according to posters with similar specialized SIGINT officers went down in the Mediteranean in front of all these navies present there, Turkey, france, Lebanon, israel, Syria, Russia, Cyprus, Egypt Britain (also a base) USA, Germany (monitors) and IT HAPPENED EXACTLY THE DAY THE US AIR FORCE CELEBRATES THEIR 71st BIRTHDAY?
This was a deliberate message from USAF SpecOps (SkunkWorks) because there is very important stuff burried deep beneath that sea bed that USAF wants. If USAF wants, then Israel has to follow suit, don't they?
Another poster mentioned that there might be a secret deal between France and Russia so some oficial sources played the angle that France might be responsible for the loss of Russian SIGINT planebut these sources didnt expect that Russian mil would denny that "France killed their plane", maybe there is at least some type of memorandum etween France and Russia, maybe to acquire stuff from the bottom and research, who knows, well if true USAF would be raving mad IF THEY DID.

US AIR FARSE 71 years of presence. Happy birthday.
Good luck with your Space Farse too and chain smoker Elon Musk...who now leans to dig big tunnels and already knows how to launch spaceships for the DoD...

Posted by: Greece | Sep 19 2018 15:05 utc | 286

Nobody mentioned that a Russian SIGINT plane , a very specialised one according to posters with similar specialized SIGINT officers went down in the Mediteranean in front of all these navies present there, Turkey, france, Lebanon, israel, Syria, Russia, Cyprus, Egypt Britain (also a base) USA, Germany (monitors) and IT HAPPENED EXACTLY THE DAY THE US AIR FORCE CELEBRATES THEIR 71st BIRTHDAY?
This was a deliberate message from USAF SpecOps (SkunkWorks) because there is very important stuff burried deep beneath that sea bed that USAF wants. If USAF wants, then Israel has to follow suit, don't they?
Another poster mentioned that there might be a secret deal between France and Russia so some oficial sources played the angle that France might be responsible for the loss of Russian SIGINT planebut these sources didnt expect that Russian mil would denny that "France killed their plane", maybe there is at least some type of memorandum etween France and Russia, maybe to acquire stuff from the bottom and research, who knows, well if true USAF would be raving mad IF THEY DID.

US AIR FARSE 71 years of presence. Happy birthday.
Good luck with your Space Farse too and chain smoker Elon Musk...who now leans to dig big tunnels and already knows how to launch spaceships for the DoD...

Posted by: Greece | Sep 19 2018 15:07 utc | 287

@Grom #149

> Il-20s don't grow on trees!!!

True, but it is most probably not the last Il-20 that Russia has. It is a huge loss, but it is not a devastating loss yet.
Same about the SIGINT professionals perished with the plane.

> Why did they allow the Israelis to get *so dangerously close* to their prized asset - the Il-20

They commanded Il-20 to go landing - a bit too late as it turned out.
I also think that Israel jets are barraging in Israeli and international air around Syria pretty regular.
Should Russians down all their planes when Israeli jets are in air? That would be a de facto Israel's no fly zone over Syria.

In a hindsight Il-20 should had better be ordered to land on some faraway airfield instead....
Well, hindsight is cheap.

> What about the Russian EW-systems?

I do not think they were ready to deflect Syrian missiles, even if that could be technically possible.
However the question how can Russian aircrafts be better protected from the event of SAA AD friendly fire is very important.

> Why was the Il-20 not escorted?

What would it change? Would the said escort bomb out al lthe Syrian S-200 stations in the firing range around?

> 4) What about Russian-Syrian coordination??? We know that the S-200s operated by the Syrians had been upgraded/serviced - this *must* have included the surveillance/tracking radars, as well as the IFF systems. So how could the Syrian SAM crews even fire the missile? Even if the Israelis claim that they informed the Russians just short of a minute or so before the strike, the Russians *must have seen - AND - tracked* the flight of the F-16s well in advance and even from their take-off, so they *should have informed* the Syrians.

very good set of questions, but I think most of it would be military secrets.

Few thoughts about though:

4.a) other states than Russia should not get Russian military IFF systems. Or they would end up in USA/Israel hands. For example Iran could not save their lead nuclear physics scientists from assassination. Israeli agents are in numbers all through middle east. Also Israel has a number of Soviet tanks taken form Arab states in 1960-s and 1970-s. All Soviet military secrets that could had been in those tanks - fallen into Israeli/NATO hands then. So, no. Russia would not want USA strategic bombers raining nukes over Russian cities using cloned Russian-Syrian IFF units to disable all Russian AD missiles, period.

4.b) as the infamous video about Pantsir-S1 destruction suggests, Syrian AD crew are not very well educated and disciplined. Of course SAA should not fire old dumb S-200 missile when big ally aircraft was within the range. If anything that was exactly how Ukraine downed civilian aircraft over Black Sea in 2001 and they used exactly the S-200 missile. Frankly, I am not very much concerned about Israel behavior, they are not Russian allies and they are officially at war with Syria. So blaming Israeli on failing to secure Russian personnel is futile. But the [mis]performance of SAA AD crew - if the story reported by Russian MoD is true - is saddening and alarming.

> What about Israeli EW-capabilities? Are Israeli F-16s now equipped with systems that allow them to fool Russian & Syrian radars and EW systems to the point where they can fly and approach a highly hostile area literally *undisturbed*,

If so, then they "showed their hand" prematurely for a questionable limited reward.
They spoiled their top secret then, if that was so.

> Shouldn't Russia lodge an official complaint and demand explanations from Paris?

Maybe. But there would be no point in reading Paris's explanation. If it will even come. Remind me, did Paris answered to Russian enquiry about Skripals affair misinvestigation?

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 19 2018 15:22 utc | 288

no one has mentioned the domestic audience in israel.

the few friends in israel that i talked to and their military "happiness" level is on par with some of the US military folks morale back home. near suicidal sadly. the truth is the more the media and these trolls spin it as some kind of "smart" move by upvoting and jerking themselves off mutually like homos...really has not gained an ounce of approval in their own citizen's hearts, who are tired of war.

this is asides from the traitors within israel themselves drowning from the innocent blood they spill justifying it as some kind of revenge for the yom kippur and early state wars that they know is irrelevant. these little cunts sound like some nerds giggling about murder. their excuse like the nazi's will be "it was just orders"........ ironic. a lot of my jewish friends are great friends to me so i prefer not to paint the entire country with a broad stroke of stereotype.

the younger generation constantly booze themselves and drug themselves to erase the faked reality of being told they are doing good for their countrymen. it is a battle of the subconscious for their own souls and spirit and they are losing it daily. they are preparing for the big war with hezbollah (secretly in their hearts) which they know will not be as easily done as what their media paints it to be. pray for these innocents. from hearing about their grandfathers actually fighting off the entire neighborhood into patrolling the entire neighborhood to their own detriment. they are even losing faith in their God because of these traitors.

some would sell you this as a smart move to force putin to show his cards, but again putin is too sharp to overreact. the more insults the more certain putin is that he made the right move. he has russia's interests in his mind. and making such impulsive moves will destabilize the progress the economy of russia has going for itself. it must be frustrating, i am sure these nerds are hoping that putin grows too old quickly.

Posted by: jason | Sep 19 2018 15:28 utc | 289

Another alternative is that Israeli jets have been pulling this stunt of hiding behind a conveninet Russian air asset for a while and orders "from Assad" were to "don't shoot at the Russians". Now this went on for a while and finally a commander on the ground got tired of this and shot at the Russians "by mistake". This wasn't expected in various quarters and awkward regrets were expressed by by various "partners".

It is again noted for the MoA Commentariat's pleasure that the axis of Russia-Israel with naval bases in Med and control over pipes and routes from the energy fields hems in China.

And finally, dear Commentariat, dissent is not trolling.

Posted by: realistic | Sep 19 2018 15:31 utc | 290

Jason 290
Thanks for that view of Israel. As with all groups of people, there are factions.
A few years ago, I would occasionally check on the World Zionist website to see what they were up to. They had one page on converting Israeli Jews to Zionism which I have kept in mind ever since. The page was later changed to Hebrew which did not machine translate well and some time later may have been removed entirely.
I am wondering if there is something in Korybko's theory (which Karlof linked to earlier in the thread), that a faction of American Israelis pulled the stunt with the Russian aircraft to break the relationship between nutty and Moscow (to prevent nutty from telling Trump to stand down again).

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 15:42 utc | 291

Where was the RU task force that just completed its drill in the Eastern med??

I like Harry & Peter's idea of a bet. My money, unfortunately no S300´s for SY, is on Harry though Bavar systems will prolly show up..

Posted by: Lozion | Sep 19 2018 15:43 utc | 292

#287 Arioch

I beg to differ from your opinion. I am certainly not a Russia basher.

I did not blame Russia for anything and am very grateful that they
offer an alternative to the ways of the West.

I am appalled by the (unneeded) declarations of Russia's President
re the lamenting of circumstances. Couldn't he say: "we will investigate
and take necessary actions once we have reached a conclusion."

But, the very existence of the deconfliction line between the IDF and the
Russian military points to the fact that Israel warns the Russians
of impending attacks on Syrian territory. Since these attacks
are not impeded by the Russians, it can only mean that the Russians
are indifferent to the fate of Syrian, Hezbollah and Iranian assets
in the war theater of Syria whenever Israel is the aggressor.

200 attacks in two years are a lot of attacks. Aren't they?

Meanwhile, either the Russians have concluded that the Syrians do
not have the capacity to effectively man their systems or they want
to give an advantage to Israel since they will not sell their AD systems
to Syria and neither to Iran, both opposed by their "partner" Israel.

Maybe Russia's opinion is that Iran has no place in Syria and they
feign being friendly with the Iranians while doing everything to
harm their position in Syria. Maybe this is the reason they let Israel
do whatever it pleases to "Iranian interests" in Syria.

I am judging by the actions I see.

I will say it again, the World must be grateful to Putin's Russia
because Russia opposes the Hegemon. If it not were for this
heroic act, the NWO would be the fact of life for everyone on this
planet.

Posted by: CarlD | Sep 19 2018 15:48 utc | 293

Sic Semper Tyrannis: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/09/the-shoot-down-of-the-russian-il-20-whos-responsible.html#disqus_thread
Comment section:

"In reporting the shoot-down of the Russian IL-20, Haaretz reported that "Not only Russian and (allegedly) Israeli and French aircraft and missiles were in the air. Civilian radar also tracked British Royal Air Force aircraft, which, unusually, had switched on their transponders and gone into holding patterns." If true, this strongly suggests a set-up and with NATO involvement."

"Exactly. It's obvious the Israelis intended for the French ship to be attacked, setting off god knows what chain of events."

One cannot expect human decency from the progeny of the bloody Jewish Bolsheviks and the peddlers of the profitable shoah-business. The Jewish State' cooperation with Ukrainian neo-Nazi is just one of the signs of the tribe's moral rot. The whole tribe is afflicted with hypocrisy.
The ungrateful, treacherous lot -- see the celebration of Purim.

Posted by: Anya | Sep 19 2018 15:55 utc | 294

Lozon, I also suspect Russia will not supply an S-300 to Syria - depending of course on Israeli moves re the shootdown. It is an axe Putin holds over nutty's head - leverage.

The answer will be in Israel's moves against Syria from now on, Russian improvements to Syrian defences and Russian air defence response if Israel does try another strike on Syria. Also, Russia might set terms of engagement for Israeli strikes on targets in Syria so tight that Israel will fail in any attempt.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 15:56 utc | 295

Remember the Kursk incident (2000). Or the Russian army choir event (2016).

The same power which caused those events, is behind the downing of the military plane over Syria. And that power has weaponry even more formidable than that possessed by the Russians (not nuclear, but scalar).

The Russians are not in Syria for the oil; they couldn't care less about the possible pipelines from Qatar or from Saudi Arabia.

The Pentagon is not in Syria for the oil at all; they also couldn't care less about any pipelines. Iraq was attacked so that the Iranians could march, if needed, to Syria, travelling over southern Iraq without any problems.

The Russians are desperately trying to stop something, an unfolding of events caused by the power which downed the military plane the other day.

Posted by: sandokhan | Sep 19 2018 15:56 utc | 296

"Russian response options to the latest Israeli provocation:" http://thesaker.is/russian-response-options-to-the-latest-israeli-provocation/

"So let’s not speculate about all this and wait for the Kremlin to take some kind of decision. Then we can evaluate it. Right now all these speculations are just a waste of time.

Also, speaking of Syria: has anybody noticed that the agreement between Turkey and Russia has removed any justification for a US attack on Syria and that the Israelis have organized their latest little bloody stunt right after this deal was announced? "

Guess, until the nests of the deciders (with their progeny) are eradicated, the planet will be under a mortal threat from the "most moral" and "most victimized" supremacists.

Posted by: Anya | Sep 19 2018 16:04 utc | 297

I have never seen such an armada of trolls. They have crept out of their basements and edifices, and leave their filthy slimy trail all over this blog, spouting their usual russophobic, zionist nonsense, garbled with white supremacy and outright fascism. At every move that Vladimir Putin makes, that does not mean the end for us all, their regurgitate their drivel, non factual masturbated crap, often citing the usual suspects: the complete MSM + Bellingcat and Syrian Humans Rigths Watch.
But Putin phobia is dominant, I think these trolls are US rednecks, with the IQ of a frog (Their symbol) with a knowledge span that is shorter than my dick or even nose, and both are short.
Its time to watch Idiocracy again.
Someone in the IAF fucked up here, Israeli and Russian understanding has ever been good, ever mind you. So I predict someone in the IAF will get a pink slip and be relieved of command.
Putin knows this, therefore the mistake story. And consider this: Nuclear armed countries rarely go to war with each other. India-Pakistan, was an "understood" war with redlines.
Russia has allegedly about 8000 nuclear warheads. That is enough for us all, all 7 billion.
Come on barflies, call out this trollish nonsense, Russia plays chess and the other participants play chequers.


Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 19 2018 16:05 utc | 298

Putin and the Russian MoD have demonstrated a far higher degree of honesty than either Israel or NATO about events in and around Syria in recent years so perhaps the conspiracy theorist commenting here should just accept what the Russians are saying.
It's important to understand that when Putin and the Russians have been accused of lying by the west, it's because the Russians do not clearly understand what has happened and come up with a hypothesis that accords with what they know at that time which is as it should be. That the west and its propagandists like The White Helmets and Bellingcat put out a story and stick with it through thick and thin strongly suggests that their narrative is riddled with fabrications.

Posted by: Ghost Ship | Sep 19 2018 16:11 utc | 299

CarlD 294

I now judge the Putin Netanyahu Israel relationship on the Southwestern offensive. Russia negotiated between Iran, Syria and Israel and arrived at a deal where Netanyahu told Trump to stand down (re US message to proxies that they were on their own on the eve of the offensive). I saw a number of pics taken from the Israeli side of both Russian and Syrian planes bombing right up against the security fence that runs down the demarcation line, with no complaints or reactions from Israel. Also when the SAA reached the ISIS enclave, ISIS fired some rounds into Israel in a call for help. Instead of firing on SAA, this time Israel destroyed the firing positions of the headchopper distress call.

Netanyahu at the Moscow military parade. Many clowns cry about Nutty being an honored guest. An honored guest gets to sit beside the President of the Russian federation. The person sitting beside Putin - between Putin and Netanyahu - was a WWII veteran who had been part of the unit that liberated Auschwitz. Netanyahu had to look at the veteran every time he turned to speak to Putin.

Although I think as much of Netanyahu as I do of Erdogan, both very distasteful, it is the above that I judge the Putin Netanyahu relationship on. Both can be negotiated with and Putin has the leverage to negotiate good terms from the Russian position.

Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 19 2018 16:16 utc | 300

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