Russia Beefs Up Syria's Air Defenses - Tells "Hotheads" To Cool Down
The Russian Minister of Defense today announced some of the measures to be taken in Syria in response to last weeks destruction of its electronic warfare plane with 15 airmen on board. Yesterday the Russian MoD held Israel responsible for the incident.
Shortly after the event happened we noted:
On Netanyahoo's personal request Russia had stopped the delivery of original Russian S-300 long range air-defense missiles to the Syrian military. These would have been less likely to veer off towards the wrong target. In consequence an Iranian 747 was damaged and 15 Russian soldiers were killed. Netanyahoo can forget about any further such 'favors' from Moscow.
Yesterday we added:
The incident will have consequences on several levels. For one - the airspace along the Syrian coast will now be off limits for Israeli flights
...
The Syrian air defense will be further strengthened and modernized. Its personal will get more specialist training. But the probably worst issue for Israel's military will be cooled down relations with the Russian forces. There will be no more freebies, no more looking aside and direct Russian fire on Israeli forces should they again try such stunts.
These predicted measures are exactly the ones Defense Minister Shoigu announced today. Syria will get the S-300, its air defense will be further updated, Syria's coast will be more heavily defended:
MOSCOW, September 24./TASS/. Within two weeks, the Syrian army will get from Russia S-300 air-defense missiles to strengthen its combat capabilities following the downing of a Russian Ilyushin Il-20 aircraft in Syria, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said on Monday.
Syria ordered the S-300 systems in 2013 but Russia held back the delivery on Israel's request. Syria also had more urgent needs, especially for short range air-defense systems, which Russia delivered in large numbers. It were these systems that allowed the Syrian air defense to disable a high number of U.S. cruise missiles fired against it in April. The S-300, with a reach of up to 250 kilometers, will be able to target Israeli planes over Lebanon as well as deep within Israeli air space.
The delivery of the S-300s via transport planes from Russia already begun. There are several sub types of the system and a number of different radar combinations to guide them. There is no information yet about the exact types Syria will be equipped with and in what numbers. The first deployment will likely be around the capital Damascus.
Shoigu also announced that Syria's air defenses will now be equipped with Russian IFF systems:
"The command posts of Syrian air defense forces and units will be equipped with automated control systems only supplied to the Russian armed forces. This will facilitate centralized control over all forces and resources of the Syrian air defense, monitor the situation in the air, and ensure operative issuance of orders. Most importantly, we will guarantee the identification of all Russian aircrafts by the Syrian air defense systems," Shoigu said.
Identification Friend or Foe systems are the holy grail of any air force. With IFF an air defense radar sends an secret challenge to any unidentified airplane it detects. If the code is correct, a friendly airplane will respond with an identification token. The systems use special frequencies, strong cryptography and a daily changing code that is kept ultra secret. (NATO procedures demand that two officers cooperate in any update of such codes.) Russia held back these codes from Syria to avoid them leaking to potential enemies. It is likely that Russian officers will be present at the Syrian air defense command posts to handle the issue.
Russia will also take additional electronic warfare measures to hinder potential attacks near its bases in Syria:
The third measure announced by the Russian defense ministry is a blanket of electronic countermeasures over Syrian coastline, which would “suppress satellite navigation, onboard radar systems and communications of warplanes attacking targets on Syrian territory.”Shoigu said the measures are meant to “cool down ‘hotheads’ and prevent misjudged actions posing a risk to our service members.” He added that if such a development fails to materialize, the Russian military “would act in accordance to the situation.”
The area where these electronic measures will be applied will certainly include most of Lebanon which air space Israel used several times to attack Syria. That and the upgrades of Syria's defenses will not be the only steps Russia will take. There will be additional political measure against Israel which are yet to be announced.
Israel knows that it can only do little against the Russian responses to its devious attack. That is why some of its lawmakers now ask for even greater U.S. involvement in Syria. The U.S. military will not be happy about that.
Posted by b on September 24, 2018 at 11:11 UTC | Permalink
« previous pageAn explosive documentary
The Syria Deception Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=475&v=2FUpbZXaN9w
Posted by: Virgile | Sep 26 2018 2:12 utc | 202
The article, “Will London, Paris and Tel-Aviv be sanctioned by Moscow and Washington?” draws parallels between the IL20 incident and that of Israel, Britain and France in the 1956 Suez crisis. Furthermore, the “Secretary General of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, (stated that) none of the targets under attack were linked in any way to Iran or Hezbollah. This British-French-Israëli action had nothing to do with the international struggle against the jihadists in general and Daesh in particular. It also had no connection with the overthrow of the Syrian Arab Republic or its President, Bachar el-Assad. Its main objective was to kill military scientists, in particular the rocket specialists from the Institute of Technical Industries in Lattakia.”
http://www.voltairenet.org/article203086.html
Those who decry the lack of an immediate response by Russia appear to follow the John Wayne approach to conflicts. In contrast, Russia chooses to apply a systems dynamics approach that takes in game theory (plus chess)to formulate a response. Russia realizes that nuclear war between the major nuclear powers, including Israel, must be avoided as it would lead to a civilizational ending Nuclear Winter event.
The game is for Russia to attack terrorists backed by Israel and Israel to attack SAA and Shia groups that are killing Israeli backed terrorists. The transfer of S-300 PMU units will allow the Syrian Army to effectively defend itself from Israel air attacks. Likewise, the Israeli agents killed by the SAA along with Al Qaeda in Syria are part of the game. The net affect appears to prevent Israeli F-16s and F-35s from attacking Syria due to Russian radar painting of the planes for the SAA forces.
As for China, they are playing a game of GO strategy to push Western forces out of the third world. Thus, they will provide economic and technical aid to countries under attack by the West.
Given the threat of nuclear war, both Russia and China must play the long game and let the US and its allies collapse on their own corruption. Recently, Chris Hedges has made the point the America will collapse within 10 years unless there is a revolution.
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-coming-collapse/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeE5WnTUsF8
Posted by: Krollchem | Sep 26 2018 2:14 utc | 203
Frances (Assad being the target), i.t.o. the facts on the ground, it sounds highly plausible to me (GB overflight, France missiles, Israel joyride, terrorist drone activity, lots happening at the time). Under this scenario, the strike would happen well outside the locality of Kheimimm. Some of the speculation may be a bit iffy (f.i. Erd "insisting" on BaA's signature), but there would no doubt have been far less fatuous reasons for an Assad trip to Moscow (or to somewhere, perh. no further than the apron at Khm.). (Ask if you need the links, btw.)
Almost certainly what brought down Il20 was US.GB.Fr action and not Isr. who were in the mix to obfuscate, and possibly unaware of the real purpose. (Also, think hard about some credible reasons why some senior Isr. military men would hasten to Moscow. (Apology? Dressing down? Pull the other one.)
Posted by: Plod | Sep 26 2018 2:41 utc | 204
Well that sure looks like a Krasukha 4 to me..
https://en.muraselon.com/2018/09/russian-electronic-warfare-equipment-syria/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha_(electronic_warfare_system)
Posted by: Lozion | Sep 26 2018 2:47 utc | 205
Krollchem Thanks for the link:
"Russia could forbid the United Kingdom, France and Israël from making any intrusion into the maritime, terrestrial and aerial space of Syria without the authorisation of Damascus."
Meyssan's historical perspective is invaluable to our understanding of current events.
Posted by: Fec | Sep 26 2018 2:54 utc | 206
elijah has a new piece out today and tells me some things I didn't know before.
we all pretty much know now about Israel's 200+ times in the last few years attacking iranian and hezbollah convoys and material etc etc, but in fact at least some/enough of those attacks were clearly against Syrian forces and their infrastructure - like the Sept 18 israeli attack on a syrian "warehouse manufacturing spare parts of the Syrian M-600, the equivalent of the solid fuel precision missile Fateh-110." - obviously trying to degrade syira's armed forces and resistance.
https://ejmagnier.com/2018/09/25/iran-looks-on-as-israeli-arrogance-forces-putins-hand/
"....Moreover, Tel Aviv misinformed Russia’s Hmaymeem coordination centre, claiming that the Israeli attack would come from the east. The Russian command instructed the IL-20 to move west and land at the airport to avoid being caught in a crossfire. But the Israeli F-16 jets arrived from the west and not the east, leading to the downing of the IL-20 and the death of the 15 Russian servicemen.....
....But the most serious decision is not the long-delayed delivery of the S-300 VM but the decision to close Syrian airspace and prevent any hostile jet from violating it. In this regard, Russia may not be able to avoid direct confrontation with the US, whose forces (including the UK and France) are occupying the al-Tanf crossing between Syria and Iraq as well as the province of al-Hasaka and part of Deir-ezzour."
stay tuned for more fireworks before this war is over.
Posted by: michaelj72 | Sep 26 2018 3:09 utc | 207
@196 ashley albanese
Anti-China trolls like you don't even bother to see the facts and reality on the ground.
Western countries and their lackeys are the one practicing capitalism with apologists claiming it is a distorted form of capitalism (crony capitalism, etc) while in fact that's the goal of capitalism - to maximize profit over anything else. Anything is legalized in the name of profit. An idiotic, logic-less way of thinking indeed.
China don't bother with -isms. China formulated her own strategy by discarding the bad from any ideologies and gathering the good from them, creating her own way of thinking, of doing things by keep reforming her strategy following the changes of times.
Billionaires in China are under the close watch of Chinese government and unlike their counterparts in western countries, they don't have the power to dictate and control the government.
For the sake of convenience it is also called "socialism" with Chinese characteristics, and yet the label socialism here can be replaced by anything else. It's just a label, China do things pragmatically, not dictated by a specific ideology.
Posted by: Face The Fact | Sep 26 2018 3:10 utc | 208
Ross @177:
No doubts that the Chinese leadership is concerned with radicalized Uyghurs in Idlib. IMHO, it's the reason why the Chinese is in talks with Kabul in building a base in Northern Afghanistan; it's not just about the CPEC.
Posted by: Ian | Sep 26 2018 3:21 utc | 209
@187 Piotr
I was trying to illustrate tactical and strategic depth, not a comparison of militaries. We , in Denmark , are actually not much into wars. We were once but got trounced by the Swedes, the English and the Germans. Denmark is flat as a pancake and is indefensible because of its small size, it is a walkover, we know that. But it does , together with Sweden controll the entrance to the baltic, and in case of large ships, it controls it sovereignly, as it must be made through the “Store Bælt” which are internal Danish waters, but also an international waterway.
But honestly, we really do not like to shoot at other people, unless we are occupied, in that case some of us would respond.
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 26 2018 4:23 utc | 210
@ karloff1 194
Splendid post, what elaborate summing up of a nations history. You forgot though to mention Lebanon, as another nation with tolerance.
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 26 2018 4:24 utc | 211
@209 Krollchem
"a civilizational ending Nuclear Winter event."
Honestly, who cares? After all homo sapiens sapiens, self-declared pride of creation, is precisely 1 (one) species of a great many others inhabiting this astoundingly beautiful and complex system frequently referred to as Planet Earth.
What did so-called civilization yield for this system other than mayhem and destruction in an ever accelerating pace? Not much in my book, if anything at all. Right now we're in the midst of an unprecedented extinction event exactly because of civilization.
First and foremost, nuclear Armageddon has to be prevented at all costs not for the benefit of oh-so-precious humanity but for the planet itself, aka life.
Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 26 2018 4:41 utc | 212
Hmpf@221
Good point.
Sorry about the oversight. See also the book Doughnut Economics (which I have read)and the Club of Rome model for better perspectives.
A retired University of BC professor recently pointed out that humans and their domestic food sources comprise over 95% of the land animal biomass. Not much hope, if any at all.
Posted by: Krollchem | Sep 26 2018 4:51 utc | 213
"Posted by: JohninMK | Sep 24, 2018 2:33:52 PM | 68"
"As such Syria is likely to have complete control of the political fallout of any action but little technical control in it."
"If the situation arises and they hit an F-16 then Syria gets the glory and shit fallout whilst Russia smiles and gets its back slapped. If they miss its the fault of the undertrained SyAF not a S-300 failure."
"there will now be yet another Russian defence system in Syria under testing in a war situation."
Exactly! Same thoughts. I even dare say that the Russians are actually extending their own SAM network, and this "delivery to Syria" is just needed for "plausible deniability", ie. from now on, in practice, the Russians can actually shoot down anyone. And anyone knows that.
Posted by: nyolci | Sep 26 2018 6:21 utc | 214
karlof1 @ 191
The people laughing at the emperor fail to realize they have been naked for a much longer time than him and are about to get hanged for it too.
In all his glorious boorishness, the emperor is actually undermining the power of sundry officials and apparatchiks in the industrialized West.
That is not a bad thing for the well being of humanity
Posted by: guidoamm | Sep 26 2018 7:53 utc | 215
Posted by: Hmpf | Sep 26, 2018 12:41:20 AM | 221
First and foremost, nuclear Armageddon has to be prevented at all costs not for the benefit of oh-so-precious humanity but for the planet itself, aka life.
Even nuclear war would be just a great acceleration of the destruction the economic civilization already is perpetrating upon humanity and the Earth. (Most of humanity is an exploited resource of civilization, not a beneficiary or collaborator. That's always been true throughout history and is most true today. Just ask Syria's farmers, dispossessed by desertification and drought, all artificially driven by civilization.)
....all kinds of Israel's military "experts" are out in force
And the horse they are flogging is multiple public contacts Putin made with Khabad officials.
Those invested into inter-Jewry relationship, what are the dynamics between official Israel and Khabad? Are they allies, enemies, rivals? Why are they different entities - they should have different world views and goals then?
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 9:22 utc | 217
Arioch #53: What I wonder, if there would be a reason for Damascus to roll some of "their" S-300 units into Lebanon.
Harry #117: Never going to happen, any delivery of such equipment comes with a end-user State guarantee it wont be given/sold to any 3rd party, unless manufacturer agrees. Plus there is no one "to give to" in Lebanon. Their government and army are in US/Saudi pocket, and Hezb is non-state entity.
Overlooked it earlier.
I did not say about "giving away" AD units, but of moving Syrian AD units, manned by SAA crew and belonging to Syria into Lebanese land. Just like Russian military are hosted in Syrian land, but stay Russian.
However on Smooothie's I was told, that Lebanese terrain is so complex that positioning there long-range missiles like S-300 has no practical sense.
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 9:33 utc | 218
Lebanon's Military Tribunal has sentenced three Lebanese nationals to three years in prison with hard labor on charges of espionage on Hezbollah resistance movement for Israel's Mossad spy agency and collaboration with Israeli authorities.
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 10:13 utc | 219
Boltons latest outburst means , he needs to be downgraded to corpse.
This particular piece of human thrash is spetacularly evil and malignant. Like skin cancer.
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 26 2018 10:14 utc | 220
@Grieved #200
> The RT voice-over ended by quoting Konashenkov as saying the Israeli statements have nothing to do with reality. The Vesti subtitles and headline go further and translate him as saying the statements are "nothing but lies."
Literal translation is not always most accurate one, cause in different cultures the "amount of insult" in specific wording may differ. So the best transaction attenuates harshness of expressions, instead of verbatim dictionary-in-hand translating.
In this case, RT manned by foreign journalists knowing local culture and being natives to Anglo-sphere might give better (if not literal) translation than one made by Russian journalists at Vesti
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 10:17 utc | 221
In a historic move, Britain’s opposition Labour Party has called for a total ban on all UK arms sales to Israel.
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 10:32 utc | 222
@227 Why would Syria need to move S-300 units into "Lebanese land"?
An S-300 based on Syrian territory anywhere west of Damascus would easily be able to shoot anything flying over central Lebanon, and quite a bit further out to sea.
One unit near Damascus and another near Homs would essentially shut down all Lebanese airspace.
Posted by: Yeah, Right | Sep 26 2018 10:52 utc | 223
@michaelj72 #213
> ....the [Russian] decision to close Syrian airspace and prevent any hostile jet from violating it. In this regard, Russia may not be able to avoid direct confrontation with the US, whose forces (including the UK and France) are occupying the al-Tanf crossing between Syria and Iraq.....
I do not buy it about al-Tanf.
US always can extract their kin via Iraq, I do not thing RuAF would really down any cargo heli coming from Iraq to al-Tanf and back. But even if they would - it still does nothing to stop USA from moving just few miles in cars from al-Tanf into Iraq and get air lift from there.
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 11:09 utc | 224
@ Arioch #230 and Grieved #200
The subtitles are accurate. The last sentence in that video is "nothing but lies"
Posted by: pomkomGRB | Sep 26 2018 11:31 utc | 225
@207 pft
Or the SAA did NOT shoot down the Russian plane... someone else did, ie. France or Israel?
Posted by: xLemming | Sep 26 2018 11:45 utc | 226
@pomkomGRB #234
Guess u totally missed what i wrote about then
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 11:57 utc | 227
Boltons latest outburst means, he needs to be downgraded to corpse.
This particular piece of human thrash is spectacularly evil and malignant. Like skin cancer. Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 26, 2018 6:14:52 AM | 229
Is it is true that, in this world: 'evil' is never thoroughly conquered by 'good'?
Good does not ever seem to actually ever win the laurel (as much one wishes it would).
Thus our metaphysical world abides as a lesser-worst malignancy does the Bolton X & out.
@209 Krollchem
Many thanks for the links. Very informative.
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 26 2018 14:30 utc | 229
Looking forward to Bolt.on being tipped off his ice floe. Not betting on it.
Posted by: et Al | Sep 26 2018 14:40 utc | 230
Putin is running a balancing act between:
—> the ‘Westerners’ maybe close to ‘neo-lib stances.’ See Russia Today Party, recall Putin ran as an independent last time. Banking! plays a role.
Ex. Idk if all these ppl were pro-Trump?
US congress standing ovation moscow
—> pol. opposition. The Communist Party is the only real / vaguely viable oppo. (Maybe overall 9 - 15% of vote.. off the cuff.. of course in local elections the person counts more.. so between 2% and 55% depending on type of election.) The scandal in Vladivostock ‘Primorie region’ was bad, a Communist won, the election was ‘stolen’ by a Putin-candidate (supposedly), as all the W press will gleefully inform. Without specifying (sometimes) that the win was by a communist, way to the left of Putin, and that the election was cancelled the next day and will be re-run. Ex:
—> The True Patriots who scream for a more agressive stance, Russia can fight and prevail! (US spokesman: Paul Craig Roberts.)
—> Oligarchs who seem to be out of play to some degree though …hard to tell. Monarchists and others are a curiosity. Who else (serious question) ?
The lame W hyper-supported oppo, Navalny and co. are just fringe ppl scraping a living, of no account.
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 26 2018 14:46 utc | 231
If it had not been for the coolheaded response from Russia. we would probably all be smoking corpses by now.
The level and thoughtful response served on Russia shows this is a nation ruled by people who believe in the law.
Few countries , lest not the Evil Empire, would accept a downing of a ELINT aircraft. Russia has chosen to respond in her own way, but having to know 10 % of the Russian way, the response will come later.
The Deafaist trolls and and abruptors which are present here can go packing, their Hashbare upbringing and Zionists aims quelled.
We are still some that can think in the west, we are still some that does not by into the MSM. We are by golly still some that wish to live in peace with our neighbors , and see our children grow up. We are still some that value decency and the right to other people to have a decent life too.
The US has with John Boltons last comments put it self in the rubbish bin. It is no longer a nation of decency, it is a nation of war and agression and should be expelled from the UN.
Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 26 2018 14:51 utc | 232
@Noirette #240
I think Russian "Communist Party" are brand owners, they are as Communistic as US DEM are Democratic.
Latifundist Grudinin is hardly what a communist candidate should look like, for one of examples.
There seems no real nation-wide left party in Russia now.
Our leftists did not switched to worshipping LGBTQ, but they do not seem to have economic-political vision for 21 century too.
Re: Primorye - that is a sad story about provinces in Empires. It seems that both parties either are lying about each other, or committed frauds. At least it seems none of parties published any factual evidence, but both make very loud claims. And in the end an emissary from the capital city - while not an angel herself - has to say "plague upon your both houses".
And western MSM would inflate that mostly evidence-free scandal like they inflated 2012 elections another evidence-free scandal.
> The True Patriots who scream for a more agressive stance, Russia can fight and prevail! (US spokesman: Paul Craig Roberts.)
PCR is True Patriot of which state/nation exactly, Russia or America?
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 15:31 utc | 233
> The US .....is a nation of war and aggression and should be expelled from the UN.
....creating a precedent which probably would be later applied to dissenters like Russia.
Maybe that was not so obviously good an idea in a second glance.
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 15:33 utc | 234
@Noirette #234
—> pol. opposition. The Communist Party is the only real / vaguely viable oppo.
However they are "brand owners" more than communists. Like US DEM which are hardly democratic otherwise than by the brand.
For one example, latifundist Grudinin is hardly a role model of Communist. Khodorkovsky links, too. Etc.
> The scandal in Vladivostock ‘Primorie region’ was bad
> as all the W press will gleefully inform.
It was bad, and it in a sense showcased what happens in vast empires far away form capital cities.
Both parties made louder-and-louder claim about mischief, but they both refrained from publishing any factual evidence of it.
Claims without facts - what there for Western MSM not to like?
Afterall those very MSM were having a similar party about similarly evidence-less 2012 elections scandal.
In the end an emissary from the capital - not an angel herself - said "plague upon your both houses" and scrapped the whole game.
—> The True Patriots who scream for a more agressive stance, Russia can fight and prevail! (US spokesman: Paul Craig Roberts.)
PCR here is a "True Patriot" of which nation? Russia or America?
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26 2018 15:39 utc | 235
First a bit of OT:
I don't think most people who care at all believe in anything coming out of Kiev. Just because the narrative is adopted as "obvious" by the usual suspects and media doesn't mean people buy into it.
As for the US they struggle to maintain paid "friends" when even the EU "elites" (and I have no love lost for them) are getting annoyed.
Just because people aren't being particularly vocal doesn't mean they buy into all the propaganda, maybe most people are far more skeptical to everything from any side than many here believe?
Back on topic:
Maybe "hotheads" refer to those who remain unconvinced by the S-200 narrative?
I find it suspicious that there's so much silence from everyone except Russia and the fake jews who each have different contradictory claims. There's no lack of radar coverage in the region by others.
Yet a lot of people are keeping noticeably silent as far as I know.
Why?
No matter whether the Russians are right or not in the details (personally I don't care as long as they continue to do what's right) there must be a lot more going on here.
I apologize if I'm a hothead (I can be but far more commonly I'm "only" extremely stubborn and perhaps a bit thick :D ), I would like to point out that I have absolutely no first hand knowledge about any of this. I'm not claiming any kind of authority.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 26 2018 15:44 utc | 236
So with Israels fleet of F-35's operational within the past year Syria getting S-300's may not be a game changer some think. In fact they will be good training For Israel as they prepare for operations against Iran. Putin knows this.Posted by: Pft | Sep 25, 2018 7:27:46 PM | 195
Christmas trees.
IAF: "(little mouse voice) Please, please let us test our 2 F-35 against your S-300...pleaseeeee, with sugar on top"
GAF: "Uhmmmm...like what? We can't let you anywhere near, YOU ARE NOT A NATO COUNTRY, besides there's Russian operators."
IAF: "(little mouse voice) No, no, we will fly some F-16, then an F-35 all by chance....will pass by, all by chance,...so let us test it please pleaseeeee"
GAF: "Oh, well, I guess, is just a routine exercise, what the heck, we gonna do joint exercises anyway"
IAF: "(little mouse voice) Oh thank you thank you..."
A few days later...(weeks)
Russian Operator: "Da da, I saw the C-130 passing by comrade, I did see the f-16, I did see also some F-15, but what was that far beyond near the horizon, it was like a Christmass tree! A Meteor?"
THAT'S HOW IT PROBABLY WENT DOWN.....
Posted by: Greece | Sep 26 2018 17:13 utc | 237
Then Turkey came along, and said.. "We want S-400" to the Russians.
Then aftwr we saw that, I believe we said to the Americans, "What? F-35? No no...just upgrade some F-16's and THATS IT!"
Posted by: Greece | Sep 26 2018 17:16 utc | 238
Lebanon's Military Tribunal has sentenced three Lebanese nationals to three years in prison with hard labor on charges of espionage on Hezbollah resistance movement for Israel's Mossad spy agency and collaboration with Israeli authorities.Iranian Press TV reports
Posted by: Arioch | Sep 26, 2018 6:13:40 AM | 219
This is where IDF buys houses for their spooks and their Lebanese collaborators possibly when they want them out of sight but not far away from the M.E:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangrati
They are probably retasking them for other operations. It has a nice view of the Acropolis complex. I wonder why.......
Posted by: Greece | Sep 26 2018 17:35 utc | 239
https://youtu.be/WV8ao8Z2Gi4 The NATO+ attack on Latakia: something like Karpov's losing move: Qd1.
I second Virgile’s recommendation to watch The Syria Deception: Al-Qaeda Goes to Hollywood mini-doc. My understanding is it’s just the first part in a series. Indeed, you would need dozens of mini-docs like this to cover all the lies that were spread about Syria during the past 7.5 years.
Posted by: S | Sep 26 2018 17:41 utc | 241
Thanks Grieved, Peter AU1. [199,200] It just seemed such a huge mistake on Israel's part, if that indeed is what it was. I take your point, Peter, that there should have been no reason to destroy the plane in my posed scenario. Pardon me for staying on the subject; I appreciate the posts of both of you and of others in fleshing out the entire incident. I can't help thinking if we had had so many able posts and comments during the Gulf of Tonkin incident, who knows, it might have been harder to start that terrible war. Maybe instead of the fog of war, we are entering an era of the mists of war; one can hope. Kudos to the Russians for holding fire, examining the facts, and explaining them as soon as they did so.
Posted by: juliania | Sep 26 2018 21:19 utc | 242
The Lowdown @243--
Nobody "will answer for this crime." Why? Because the policy put in place and agreed to by Syria et al is where the mistake lay, where the "crime" was made possible. Clearly, that policy was debated ever since it was employed. And now it's rightfully been altered for the better.
Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 26 2018 22:52 utc | 243
Juliania @ 242:
The attack on the Russian Ilyushin transport plane may have been intended as part of a series of attacks coordinated with the French and possibly the rest of NATO. The French started denying shooting down the plane before the blame game started. The French frigate FS Auvergne had been firing missiles on Monday evening when the Ilyushin was taken down and those launches occurred about the same time that ATC at Khmeimim airbase lost contact with the Ilyushin.
Tom Luongo of Strategic Culture Foundation explains his position that the Ilyushin attack is part of a prepared narrative intended to deceive the Russians into blaming France and possbily counter-attacking a French warship (thereby giving the French an excuse to invoke Article 5 of the NATO treaty). You need to read the article linked below carefully to understand what Luongo means by "preparing the narrative":
"Decoding Putin’s Response to Attack in Syria"
https://tomluongo.me/2018/09/19/decoding-putin-attack-syria/
Fort Russ explains its view that the French shot down the Ilyushin and that the Russians decided to pursue its own disinformation campaign (by going along with claims that the Syrians shot down the plane) so as to deflate the false narrative being built around the incident by NATO and to do (as FRN puts it) "something unexpected".
Posted by: Jen | Sep 26 2018 23:19 utc | 244
@245 jen... this conspiracy theory has been bandied around for the past week.. it has some merits, so maybe conspiracy theory is a bit harsh.. could be coincidence theory as well.. i am undecided on it's merits... however, i do believe their will be similar moves down the road and at some point, russia will not back down.. meanwhile, russia is ramping up it's position which says to be, we are nowhere near the crest of all this..
"Fort Russ explains its view that the French shot down the Ilyushin and that the Russians decided to pursue its own disinformation campaign (by going along with claims that the Syrians shot down the plane) so as to deflate the false narrative being built around the incident by NATO and to do (as FRN puts it) "something unexpected".
Posted by: james | Sep 27 2018 1:52 utc | 245
one thing i do know.. russia knows what happened, even if it is not telling..
Posted by: james | Sep 27 2018 1:53 utc | 247
Photographs of compenents of S300 anti-aircraft missile defence systems apparently already in Syria and being unloaded:
Posted by: Jen | Sep 27 2018 2:21 utc | 248
Jen, james
I don't believe it.
First the premise that Russia doesn't want to sour relations with France is nonsense. France is a NATO country and a militant member of the Assad-must-go!' Coalition. Russia needs Germany much more than France (because of NorthStream). Macron has been a Trump lackey and deserves all the rebuke he would get if a French ship dared to attack the Russian military.
If France downed the plane by accident, it wouldn't excuse the Israelis and it doesn't preclude beefing up Syrian air defenses. Those things would still happen and Russia would demand an explanation from France to boot.
If France downed the plane on purpose, then ignoring the attack would not deter those that want war - it would encourage another attack due to weakness.
And then there's the Russian and Syrian military outrage - which Putin would find difficult to contain. Would all Russian officers remain silent? Would Syrian officers silently accept the blame for the downing? And what of French seamen? For how long?
Lastly, we KNOW that US and NATO have been extremely careful about just how far their provocations can go. That's why we haven't seen NATO/YANK/FROG/LIMEY 'mistakes' before. That over years and a wide range of geography. That history makes it very unlikely that the French attack was deliberate and an accidental attack would be a nightmare for NATO/FRANCE, not Putin.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2018 2:48 utc | 249
@242 juliania
"the mists of war"
I hope that history will record that you coined this wonderful term. I will use it moving forward.
You just changed a centuries-old paradigm, in one stroke of the pen.
It is not only only possible to shift the status quo, but it happens all the time.
Posted by: Grieved | Sep 27 2018 2:55 utc | 250
@250 jackrabbit.. i hear you and agree with you what are saying.. i continue to lean towards your position, however the one thing that nags me is the fact that the french frigate did actually fire some missiles.. now, maybe i have that wrong, or that was made up.. if that isn't made up, the timing seems suspect... at present i remain undecided on just what happened here, otherwise, i agree with you - it is much more unlikely then likely france took down IL-20..
Posted by: james | Sep 27 2018 4:13 utc | 251
@ juliania with the mists of war versus the old fog of war paradigm like Grieved wrote...thanks as well
I agree with your kudos to Russia for handling it the way they did.
I also agree with you that public posts and comments may be helping to keep the mists from becoming fog.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 27 2018 4:34 utc | 252
@james
The missiles fired by the french frigate stumps me too as there has been no more news on them. I have taken it through studying Putin's Russia for a while that in official statements, they don't tend to lie, though they will leave a lot unsaid. I have taken it that as the Syrian defenses were firing for 40-50 minutes that the french missiles were fired at Syria. As Russian MoD said the french frigate fired their missile at the time IL-20 went of radar I take it the frogs were set up to take the Russian blowback rather than the Israeli's
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 27 2018 5:14 utc | 253
> Arioch @ 233. Agree about the R Communist Party and
There seems no real nation-wide left party in Russia now.
To me the R Communist Party is rather like the French C. P.
A mixed bag with all kinds of figures with no clear ideology / core platform / shared manifesto. Little agreement but much nostalgia etc. A grab-bag of very varied oppo from the left of ‘center’, with some opportunists mixed in for good measure (because of the no. of voters it can be worth it - e.g. mayor, etc.) Yes about Primorye, evidence is lacking.
I only meant that P. C. Roberts is super keen on pointing out what Putin ‘apparently’ ignores, advising Putin to stop turning the other cheek, to man up and act before it is too late…
There was a recent attack on education in Russia. Very typical of neo-libs. (Besides the pension debacle..other story.)
The proposal was to change the marking system (in R = 5 point scale) as it was ‘outdated’, inadequate ridiculous etc. That may sound like trivia, but upsetting and ‘modernising’ in this way can disturb and negatively impact school systems. Of course the actual ‘marks’ don’t matter (A - B - C, 56%, or 1 > 6 as in Switz) they are just tradition that teachers, pupils, parents, etc. are used to. Trouble - sometimes very destructive (endless court cases, oppo, teachers thrown out, etc.) can result. This proposal was defeated Idk how exactly as most of the main party parliamentarians voted for it.
Putin’s position and hold is the topic, Idk what to make of it.
note. The first measurement that the Donesk _ Lugansk *changed* after Maidan 2014 was the school marking system, to the Russian one. They also altered the curriculum slowly (and took other measures in that direction), this was to ensure that children and youth could look forward to a future, i.e. enter all tech schools/unis/training schemes in Russia.
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 27 2018 14:15 utc | 254
@254 peter au.. thanks.. your quote "Russian MoD said the french frigate fired their missile at the time IL-20 went off radar..."
so, you figure the french were set up by israel to take the fall for the IL-20 from russia?
that has been expressed before..right after this all happened, i remember someone saying france could have been used by israel in some technical way i didn't understand..
Posted by: james | Sep 27 2018 17:24 utc | 255
james @253 @258
If the French were "setup" then Israel was attempting to start WWIII. This is a much more serious charge than hiding behind the IL-20.
It's very difficult, if not impossible, for such a setup. The Russians would certainly understand what happened after the fact. And the 'setup' would require the Russians to act on impulse - which I don't believe is something the Russians are known for.
But what the French presence is good for is plausible deniability for propaganda purposes. Israel must keep their population believing that they are right and strong. Loss of confidence in the Israeli govt could mean capital flight and/or emigration.
<> <> <> <> <>
Regarding your doubts:
If a French missile was responsible for taking down the IL-20, but Russia is covering that up by blaming Israel, then don't you think the Israeli's would be screaming about the injustice of blaming them AND preventing them from conducting attacks against Iran in Syria (something which Israel sees as a crucial for their defense)?
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2018 18:06 utc | 257
james @253, @258
If the French were "setup" then Israel was attempting to start WWIII. This is a much more serious charge than hiding behind the IL-20.
It's very difficult, if not impossible, for such a setup. The Russians would certainly understand what happened after the fact. And the 'setup' would require the Russians to act on impulse - which I don't believe is something the Russians are known for.
But what the French presence is good for is plausible deniability for propaganda purposes. Israel must keep their population believing that they are right and strong. Loss of confidence in the Israeli govt could mean capital flight and/or emigration.
<> <> <> <> <>
Regarding your doubts:
If a French missile was responsible for taking down the IL-20, but Russia is covering that up by blaming Israel, then don't you think the Israeli's would be screaming about the injustice of blaming them AND preventing them from conducting attacks against Iran in Syria (something which Israel sees as a crucial for their defense)?
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2018 18:19 utc | 258
james
If the French were "setup" then Israel was attempting to start WWIII. This is a much more serious charge than hiding behind the IL-20.
It's very difficult, if not impossible, for such a setup. The Russians would certainly understand what happened after the fact. And the 'setup' would require the Russians to act on impulse - which I don't believe is something the Russians are known for.
But what the French presence is good for is plausible deniability for propaganda purposes. Israel must keep their population believing that they are right and strong. Loss of confidence in the Israeli govt could mean capital flight and/or emigration.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2018 18:20 utc | 259
I have another comment about this in moderation (stay tuned).
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2018 18:28 utc | 260
james 257
Have been thinking on it more since posting my last comment.
The french officers and crew would be fully aware that the Russian command in Syria has authorization to destroy anything that launches and attack on Russian forces. It would be pure suicide for a single french ship to shoot down a Russian aircraft without being part of a full scale USNATO attempt to destroy all Russian assets.
Video of supersonic, not hypersonic, Russian missile running through a ship length ways.
There would be few survivors. Flores at fortruss has put up the theory that it was the french ship shot the IL-20 down, but I feel the Russian MoD version is correct, though what I think is left unspoken by Russian MoD it that Syrian air defense is not a separate force to Russian air defense.
Allowing them to be perceived by the public as separate forces is better for geo-political diplomacy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caqRJUFOMlA
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 27 2018 18:59 utc | 261
@259 jackrabbit.. thanks... yes - i really agree with you here- "But what the French presence is good for is plausible deniability for propaganda purposes. Israel must keep their population believing that they are right and strong." i do believe russia knows just the order and sequence of events and the role that israel and france have played here.. i tend to agree with peter au - or was it you that said - russia would not hold back on hitting france, if france was responsible for this... but i especially agree with your read on the russian temperament to not respond on impulse.. they appear to do the opposite..
@261 peter au.. thanks... your last line - that makes the most sense to me as well.. i just can't see the french having directly attacked the IL-20.. that makes no sense.. i don't know what they did attack, but probably it would be the scientific centre and assets which israel said it was responsible for.. israel has a regular habit of trying to knock off the scientists in iran..
Posted by: james | Sep 27 2018 19:16 utc | 262
ref nato what s that story about the libyan frozen accounts in belgium having produced millions of benefits that.... have not been frozen and were used to pay.... many ppl... in libya .. only there?
Posted by: mina | Sep 27 2018 20:42 utc | 263
The Lowdown:
I say 50% is a lot better than 0% and I'm not even Syrian.
Russia nor Putin shouldn't be held to an impossibly high standard only because others like the US and Israel do not hold themselves to any standard at all when it comes to legality and international law. Russia deserves credit for that 50% as does Iran and Hezbollah and of course Syria itself. I say that as someone who is quite critical and opposed to most forms of islam; it does not come naturally for me to say nice things about Hezbollah and Iran.
That aside some of the points you make are interesting to think about, for example what if Russia has more options than those you mention?
Israel might be allowed to make as many attempts as they like as long as none of them are successful. Exactly how that would be achieved would be up to the Russians.
Is an untarnished savior myth more important than keeping those 50% and perhaps working towards 100%? What do the people living in those 50% think about that?
Have the Russians assumed that Israel will keep on being themselves and set them up for whatever the Russians will do next? I don't know but it wouldn't be wildly surprising if they did have some idea about what to expect and what to do.
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Sep 27 2018 21:59 utc | 264
I dont know if its been mentioned but Putin’s party United Russia suffered a humiliating defeat in governors’ elections held before the shoot down. 70% of the incumbents were voted out, and an anti-Western (anti Israel) coalition of Nationalists and Communists won those districts. This was interesting timing as Putins popularity is in free fall in a backlash against his pension reforms.
Putins had to back down on his initial pro-Israel reaction (accidental) to appease military nationalists
So does this help or hinder Putin? As I have said before even countries like Russia and China benefit from having an external enemy. The US has been careful not to engage Russias military so no luck there aside from Sanctions which Russians seem to handle well. Perhaps Israel and/or even someone in Russias military decided to help Putin out and distract the population ahead of the Duma vote on the pension reform (which passed with a few amendments)
Based on Putins initial reaction I doubt he had anything to do with it (or he is a great actor), but he may capitalize on it
The thick fog of the present as always has us grasping at wisps of truth and deception.
Posted by: Pft | Sep 27 2018 22:40 utc | 265
@PFT 266
This is Putin's first public words to the on the shootdown which many are having orgasms about.
http://en.kremlin.ru/catalog/persons/424/events/58586
"Now I would like to say a few words about the tragedy you mentioned. When people die, especially in such unfortunate circumstances, it is always a tragedy, a tragedy for all of us, for the nation and for the families of our people who lost their lives.
First of all, I would like to express condolences to the families of the dead.
As for your comparison with the downing of our plane by a Turkish fighter, this was a different situation. The Turkish fighter deliberately shot down our aircraft.
In this case, it is more a chain of tragic circumstances because an Israeli fighter did not down our aircraft. It goes without saying that we must get to the bottom of this. Our attitude towards this tragedy is set forth in a statement by our Defence Ministry, and has been fully coordinated with me.
As for reciprocal action, this will be primarily aimed at ensuring additional security for our military and our facilities in the Syrian Arab Republic. These steps will be seen by everyone."
.......
Ok, so what did the defence ministry have to say about the 'tragedy'.
.........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS1c5u6gYgA
Russian Ministry of Defence spokesperson Major General Igor Konashenkov announced that Israel was guilty of downing the Russian aircraft Il-20, during a briefing in Moscow on Sunday.
"We believe that the blame for the tragedy .....
(hang on, did I see the word tragedy)
.... with the Russian Ilyushin Il-20 aircraft lies entirely with the Israeli air forces and those who made the decision to carry out such actions," he said.
Konashenkov also remarked that in the area, civilian passenger flight was using that airspace and therefore the Israeli side could have created a dangerous situation for them as well.
Konashenkov added that "Israel did not inform the Russian force about its operation in advance - but rather they issued a warning simultaneously with the beginning of the strikes, which constitutes a breach of the existing agreements."
The Il-20 was downed by Syrian anti-aircraft missile systems confused by Israeli air forces, which used the radar cover of the Russian Il-20 aircraft.
"It was impossible for the Israeli pilot not to be aware of the fact that the Ilyushin Il-20 has a much larger radar cross-section than that of a F-16 jet and because of that, the Russian aircraft would be the preferred target for the anti-aircraft missile," he added.
..................
At this point diplomatically there where three options.
1) Criminal negligence on the part of Israel.
2) A faction in Israel without official authorization had engineered the tragic
circumstances.
3) Israel Government had authorized the actions in as hostile action against Russia.
The official Israeli delegation has now been to Moscow and rather than owning up to options 1) or 2), tried to place the blame on Syria. This only leaves option 3) which is now Russia's position on Israel. Until now, Israel has not joined the hostile actions of USUK re sanctions ect and this seems to be the first time Israel has carried out a hostile action against Russian Federation.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 27 2018 23:40 utc | 266
If Israel was wrongly accused they would be SCREAMING about it and DEMANDING that they be allowed resume attacking Iranian interests in Syria.
Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 27 2018 23:41 utc | 267
PFT 266 "This was interesting timing as Putins popularity is in free fall.."
Any links on this. I have run several searches and found plenty of western MSM saying his approval rating is plummeting but none give figures for recent polls.
Posted by: Peter AU 1 | Sep 28 2018 2:11 utc | 268
Neuters via Antiwar.com: Israel prepared to reopen Golan crossing with Syria - defence chief
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-israel/israel-prepared-to-reopen-golan-crossing-with-syria-defence-chief-idUKKCN1M71CG
####
Uh-huh! Sure, it's little more than an agency reported press release, but he's clearly done it for the optics, i.e. 'we are ready to talk'. Even if it is most likely disingenuous, it is somewhat mollifying. Curious.
Posted by: et Al | Sep 28 2018 12:07 utc | 269
Peter AU1@271
I dont recall any numbers being reported, just the election results and a comment on his slipping popularity over pension reform and confirmed by the results.
Posted by: Pft | Sep 29 2018 6:54 utc | 270
@Pft
I dont know if its been mentioned but Putin’s party United Russia suffered a humiliating defeat in governors’ elections held before the shoot down.
Russian Federation has 85 federal subjects. On 2018 Unified Voting Day (9 September 2018), the following elections were held:
• 22 gubernatorial elections (direct vote).
• 4 gubernatorial elections (local parliament vote).
• 17 local parliamentary elections (each federal subject in Russia has its own local parliament).
• State Duma (Russian Lower House of Parliament) by-elections (7 vacant seats).
Here are the results of the 22 direct-vote gubernatorial elections so far:
• 15 acting governors (appointed directly by Putin) have won elections, among them: 13 ER (United Russia), 1 KPRF, 1 SR. (Yes, you heard that right, Putin appointed people from KPRF and SR as acting governors. In fact, Putin is not a member of ER. The party is headed by Medvedev.)
• 3 incumbent governors have won re-elections, all ER.
• 2 incumbent governors have lost re-elections, both ER to LDPR.
• 1 election has not finished yet (second round will be held on October 7).
• 1 election was cancelled due to voting irregularities and will be rescheduled to a later date.
And here are the results of the 4 local parliament-vote gubernatorial elections so far:
• 2 acting governors (appointed directly by Putin) have won elections, both ER.
• 1 incumbent governor has won re-election, ER.
• 1 election has not happened yet (will be held on October 1).
Thus, out of 26 governor seats contested in 2018 elections, ER got 19, LDPR got 2, KPRF got 1, SR got 1, and 3 are still undecided. This can hardly be called “a humiliating defeat” for United Russia. More like “a glorious triumph”.
Overall, out of 85 governor seats, ER has 79, LDPR has 3, KPRF has 2, and SR has 1.
Posted by: S | Sep 29 2018 14:00 utc | 271
@Pft
This was interesting timing as Putins popularity is in free fall in a backlash against his pension reforms.
Putin’s approval rating has indeed gone down because of the pension reform, but it’s hardly “in free fall”. It went from 79% in May down to 67% in July, and has stabilized since.
@Peter AU 1
Any links on this. I have run several searches and found plenty of western MSM saying his approval rating is plummeting but none give figures for recent polls.
The reason Western MSM won’t give any specific figures is because his rating is so high, which doesn’t quite fit in with the “Putin is a horrible oppressor” narrative. Putin’s approval rating as well as other political indicators for Russia can be found here: http://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/. (I’ve already posted this link on page 1 of this thread, you must have missed it.)
Posted by: S | Sep 29 2018 14:56 utc | 272
The comments to this entry are closed.
Juliana@205
Russia is able to track Israel fighters from launch. It would be naïve to believe Russia was unaware of Israeli fighters presence and intentions to attack Syria until notified. Knowing the target may have been helpful
Israeli fighters used the Russian plane as a shield fully expecting Syrian operators who could see both the Russian plane and Israeli fighters would not fire any missiles. Perhaps an unethical and unfriendly action, but the real question is why Syria launched a missile at Israeli fighters shielded by a Russian plane that was likely to be hit by the missile due to its larger radar profile and lack of missiles FF capability
Posted by: Pft | Sep 26 2018 1:34 utc | 201