thanks b.. so, who is running the msm then? clearly they play a pivotal role in shaping public opinion.. it seems to me it is the 'steady state' as you mention in the previous post... trump isn't running it.. the best he can do is claim it is fake news, which is a pretty accurate term for it... at what point do mainstream america start to turn off the news, and talking heads and look elsewhere for some insight into what is going on? i think many already have..

Posted by: james | Sep 20 2018 18:49 utc | 1

And then there is the question of why?

>> Protect Hillary's reputation after she lost the election.

>> Shout down people that are disturbed at Hillary-DNC collusion.

>> Derail an understanding of who really influenced the election.

>> Keep people entertained/distracted as controlled demolition of the middle class continues apace.

>> Mask elite failings that have led to a new Cold War.

>> All of the above.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Sep 20 2018 19:00 utc | 2

Note too it's now being reported out of Woodward's book that he found nothing, no evidence of collusion, after two hard years of diligent digging. Sara Page, of the Strzok-Page connection, said the same in the last few days. The Mueller Hoax is unraveling.

Posted by: Sid2 | Sep 20 2018 19:03 utc | 3

Sorry that should be Lisa Page.

Posted by: Sid2 | Sep 20 2018 19:08 utc | 4

The whole nonsense about Russian interference, which was obviously nonsense from Day One and has never, for a moment looked like anything but nonsense, seems to indicate that we have entered a post political era in which policy discussions and debates are forgotten and smears and false accusations take their place.
Currently in the US the Kavanaugh nomination which ought to be about the meaning of the law and the consequences of having a Supreme Court which will make Judge Taney look like Solomon at his most impressive. Instead it is about an alleged teenage incident in which the nominee is said to have caressed a girls breasts at a drunken party when all involved were at High School. Before that we had a Senatorial election in Alabama in which the Republican candidate was charged with having shown a sexual interest in teenage girls- whether this was a 'first' in Alabama is unknown but it is believed to have happened elsewhere, in the unenlightened past.
Then we have the matter of whether Jeremy Corbyn is such a danger to Jews that they will all leave the country if he is ever elected to power. This long campaign, completely devoid of evidence, like 'Russiagate' has the potential of going on forever, simply because there being no evidence it cannot be refuted.
Which is also the case with the Skripal affair, because of which even as we speak, massive trade and financial sanctions are being imposed against Russia and its enormous, innocent and plundered population.
In none of these cases has any real evidence, of the minimal quality that might justify the hanging of a dog, ever advanced. But that doesn't matter, the important thing is to choose a side and if it is Hillary Clinton's to believe or to pretend to believe and to convince others to believe (as Marcy at Emptywheel has been doing for close to three years now) in the incredible.
Who says that we no longer live in a Christian society in which faith is everything?

Posted by: bevin | Sep 20 2018 19:43 utc | 5

Sid2 @3--

No, the Mueller hoax is actively being protected by BigLie Media and justified by Trump's own actions vis-à-vis Russia, today's new sanctions being yet another example of the latter.

Journalist Sharmine Narwani relates her first experience with BigLie Media, providing anecdotal evidence that it's the Narrative being promoted that's the controlling device.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 20 2018 19:43 utc | 6

I wonder how many time i will see this, See everyone using the meme they want you to use, For example 'Election collusion' or 'Russian collusion' Etc.

A huge smoke screen allowing the main fleet to escape. The tide of votes going as it did sure did bring out the liars. From the first moment that the results showed that the huge behemoth of their interference blew flat and failed, they went all out to cast the loss as some sort of interference from what ever source, Fact is the entire process is constantly under attack from within by forces that it's ends in their sights and the loss of control of that process forced them into damage control, Today we are seeing the lofty heights they will stack the dung up to direct your attentions away from the FIRST and real interference in the election process.

Well folks say the Hillary creature as she is, What she was a token place marker for, The forces looting North America, The forces driving the 'Order out of Chaos' operation. This operation has been a monkey on the backs of the public outside the halls of modern powers and their use.

The process, even a rigged process FAILED. What ever the dirt they have on the eventual choice you made about your course, they will not allow you to subvert their plans even if you all come together and move the levers of power, I saw the photo that soon came out of Trump rather depressed looking, You say that photo, You knew exactly what it meant, From that picture to today everythng is back on THEIR track not YOURS.

The entire process is under their control as long as the many remain in their comfy places built for them. Fix is a dangerous and frightening path for a very good reason. The eventual outcome of their process is going to be a very hard place to live. Overcoming their control and domination is not going to be allowed, History is coming for the evil of this world and the fix is going to be a very devastating event.

When you have so many heads following your evil ways, It's hard not to have the response to evil fall on your actions and deal with your ways.

We live in a very interesting times. If you thought 9/11 was bad... You ain't seen nothing yet.

The Path towards evil demands BLOOD.

Posted by: Alan Reid | Sep 20 2018 19:44 utc | 7

I have no doubt that there were Russian-sponsored bots and trolls working social media during the election to promote their favorite, Trump, as well as to sow and promote chaos and confusion among and between various political groups. And, they no doubt continue to do so. The US does it, too. That's how cold war works. However, the amount of this activity that has been reported seems to be so little that I seriously doubt it could have had a significant effect on the election.

I agree that there is no evidence yet published that shows collusion or direct receipt of foreign money by Trump's campaign. I do think it quite possible that foreign (Russian) money may have reached the campaign indirectly, without the knowledge of Trump, etc. I'm very interested in what the situation is with the NRA and the amateur Russian spy.

OT, but related, I am sick and tired of every apparent attempt to hack election web sites and state election offices being blamed on the Russians. Attribution is HARD.

Posted by: John Zelnicker | Sep 20 2018 19:48 utc | 8

If you substitute "witches" or "the bogeyman" for "Russia" in most US and European news articles, you get a better sense for how ridiculous and unfounded they are. But as we witnessed in Salem, it's not hard to get mass hysteria going with a complete lack of evidence.

Once people are on the "Trump is a Russian tool" bandwagon it's extremely hard to get them off, as the absence of evidence is harder to prove--while people find the repeated assertion of imaginary evidence entirely convincing.

Posted by: worldblee | Sep 20 2018 20:04 utc | 9

@karlof1 #6: The narrative that has been promoted grows thinner all the time, with the emphasis switching from collusion to corruption and with that fading in the news on to his being deranged. Now we have resistance from Rosenstein to the House Investigative Committee and Trump to release the classified memos showing the shenanigans of Strzok, Comey, et al, plus emerging voices from inside. I do believe the collusion narrative is withering; more important "deplorables" don't give a damn anyway.

Posted by: Sid2 | Sep 20 2018 20:20 utc | 10

John Zelnicker @8--

Well, it's a proven fact that millions of recycled US taxpayer's dollars were used by Zionists to influence the 2016 and most every previous election going back to 1968, if not further. Massive documentation of collusion exists between Zionists and US politicos at all levels of government. Furthermore, there's much publicly available evidence sufficient to indict and convict Hillary Clinton of numerous felonies along with several high officials within the DNC for election interference. Why not rant and rail against these very easily proven crimes?!

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 20 2018 20:24 utc | 11

Obviously. I still love the theater though. The meaningless political theater that last occurred when Clinton was Preznit. What's most amusing this time is that it's only the hyper-partisans (many of whom are not self-aware enough to realize it) who identify (again, consciously or subconsciously) that even care. The rest of us simply get to see each party's idiotic followers on the "left" and the "right" get sucked into the media's chosen narrative.

Meanwhile, the bombings and interventions can continue, Gitmo can remain open (btw, anyone else notice that unlike hurricanes that hit the mainland, nobody ever cares whether Gitmo will be evacuated?), the massive bank bailout can be relegated deeper and deeper into the memory hole and the two parties (including Trump's cabinet) continue to grow closer and closer together where the subjects of domestic surveillance and neocon warmongering are concerned. We'll never see the PATRIOT ACT re-debated and the military budget will increase beyond all imagination while the hand wringing about "deficit spending" on the right stops so long as there's an "R" after the name of whomever sits in the White House.

I love it. I laugh openly at anyone who mentions Russia to me from either angle. "No collusion!" is as entertaining as "Putin got Trump elected!" - Idiots.

Posted by: Mike | Sep 20 2018 20:24 utc | 12

@5 bevin.. bang on.. thanks for stating that! the issue of marcy at emptywheel is fascinating for she appear quite astute but has swallowed this russian meme so thoroughly.. it is a microcosm of just how messed up the usa is at this point.. objectivity is completely gone and replaced with the endless task of going over minor details in the absence of necessary facts.. have you too been banned at ew? the place is a closed shop chorus of ignoramus's at this point, lead by lead dog bmaz.. they can't see the forest by are experts of looking at the bark on a tree..

Posted by: james | Sep 20 2018 20:26 utc | 13

@11 karlof1.. that also gets me... if one is looking for corruption in the political class, it is not hard to find! why start and stop only with russia? i think the answer is fairly obvious.. there has been an ongoing attempt to maintain the unipolar world with us$ and russia and china potentially interfere with this ongoing status... thus we are back to psychohistorians ongoing issue over finances - private verses public, and what we wish to see as a world hopefully moving forward here.. i do believe the proxy wars are really all about this same salient fact - the usa and us$ can not be challenged.. any challenge will be met with war, covert, or overt..

Posted by: james | Sep 20 2018 20:35 utc | 14

I love how the NYT mentions how no public evidence has emerged, to skirt around the fact that if there were internal evidence (from some gov agency or private citizen) it would've leaked by now. There is no such thing as evidence which hasn't been leaked in an alleged scandal of this size.

Further, the corporate news media gave Trump something like $2 billion dollars worth of advertising in free airtime. That's a much larger impact -- around 20 times Clinton's campaign costs IIRC -- than any alleged hacked e-mails (though the e-mails were leaked not hacked, and that played a role. As well as the FBI's investigation into Clinton's illegal email server which was public fact at the time) or social media interference.

Banks, defense contractors and oil companies decide who the President is and what their Cabinet will look like (see Obama's leaked CitiBank memo "recommending" executives to his 2009 Cabinet). Russians and the American people do not.

Posted by: David | Sep 20 2018 20:37 utc | 15

John Pilger's essay: Hold the Front Page, the Reporters are Missing appropriately describes this BigLie media item b dissected, while also observing, "Although journalism was always a loose extension of establishment power, something has changed in recent years," prior to providing Why this is so.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 20 2018 20:40 utc | 16

15 Cont'd:

Want to highlight this additional bit from Pilger:

"Journalism students should study this [New book from Media Lens Propaganda Blitz] to understand that the source of “fake news” is not only trollism, or the likes of Fox news, or Donald Trump, but a journalism self-anointed with a false respectability: a liberal journalism that claims to challenge corrupt state power but, in reality, courts and protects it, and colludes with it. The amorality of the years of Tony Blair, whom the Guardian has failed to rehabilitate, is its echo. [My emphasis]

IMO, the bolded text well describes BigLie Media. I wonder what George Seldes would say differently from Pilger if he were alive. Unfortunately, Pilger failed to include MoA as a source in his short list of sites having journalistic integrity.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 20 2018 20:59 utc | 17

on journalism and it being usurped by social media behemoths google, facebook, twitter and etc - i found this cbc radio) interview last night worth recommending..

Posted by: james | Sep 20 2018 21:04 utc | 18

That New York Times piece was amazing. Belief anything the US Gov't/anti-Russian lobby and other nut cases tell you, unquestioningly. Investigative journalism at its best!

Accept the most stupid evidence with blinking an eye. Even if one believes the collusion argument, try to be a bit critical. And always believe that a GRU hacker will put Felix Dzerzinnsky's name in their program. For heaven's sake he was Cheka, the forerunner of the KGB, not the GRU which was military intelligence.

Posted by: jrkrideau | Sep 20 2018 21:46 utc | 19

The timing is interesting. Hillary Clinton was one-on-one wiht Maddow "for the hour" last night (I didn't watch) and has/had an "important" broadside againt TRump in the Atlantic (covered extensively also in the Guardian) .... trying to claw her way back into the limelight or just promoting the **newly released** paperback edition of "What Happened" with and extensive "caboose" or adendum (caboose being irrc HRC's term).

I suspect some of the powerful are realizing what an impending disaster and "anti-climax" Mueller's investigation appears increasingly likely to be. It was !!! Breaking News !!! a few nights ago that Mueller was ready to sentence Flynn (guilty plea ages ago) for the single count of lying to the FBI ... don't hold your breath because it's -- OMG -- happening in December 2018. As far as I could tell, the significance (OMG) seems to be that Mueller feels Flynn's cooperation has been completed. (Flynn may be reassured, given given Papadopoulos' sentence).

People may have said unwise things and acted in unwise fashion, proving conspiracy to commit an actual crime (which is a crime even in the absence of a crime occurring) may be prove unconvincing.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Sep 20 2018 21:47 utc | 20

The absence of evidence is not disproof. Collusion is difficult to prove. It happens all the time in business. Your cable bills, smart phones, internet/cellular package fees, interest rates, on savings/CD's , airline baggage fees, etc are all a result of collusion among price fixers and not prosecuted

There certainly are an awful lot of Trump Russian connections on the financial side though, many who are of the unsavory sort (mafia). But even the MSM and Deep State downplay these connections. Why? Probably because many have Israeli passports and Trump is being protected

Frankly, if one wanted to investigate collusion of a foreign state with Trump, one should probably start with Israel. Dont hold your breath.

In any event, its all moot since Trump is just a puppet and his controllers have no loyalty to US. They are Globalists despite Trumps "America First" act. Republican non Bush Presidents tend to be professional actors because thats all a President is these days, reading from prepared scripts. Obama and Clinton were also gifted actirs albeit non professional having chosen politics from an early age. Politics is all an act.

One of the objectives of Russia and there are several objectives, is to create an environment to gain support for censorship. US, UK, France and Russia are all creating legislation or other means to either criminalize fake news (news against government propaganda) , punish criticism of Israel and support tech initiatives to filter out views that endanger the NWO and controlling elites by challenging their widely believed myths

As Mark Twain said, its easier to fool somebody than to convince them they have been fooled, its even easier (former) and tougher (latter) when you control the narrative and news, not to mention education.

Posted by: Pft | Sep 20 2018 22:08 utc | 21

Thanks for the great journalism b pointing out that what touts itself as journalism is nothing more than propaganda lies.

Unfortunately the Mark Twain quote about it being easier to fool folks than convince them they have or are being fooled is too true.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 20 2018 22:32 utc | 22

@ 8 John Zelnicker
Your own comments, John, shows that proof isn't really necessary for those who promote paranoia. You accept that "Russian Bots" are actively subverting naive Americans. When you refer to Russian bots that means bots acting under Kremlin (Putin's) orders. Aren't you just assuming that Hollywood's version of spying and propaganda is reality? Do we really not need proof?

Posted by: Mikeatlarge | Sep 20 2018 22:56 utc | 23

It is immeasurably sad that the first winner of amerika's quadrennial "most capable white or pseudo whitefella liar available" contest to actually take on the unaccountable slugs who run amerika is lazy, incompetent and not very astute.

Not only has trump been defeated in his limp wristed self-serving efforts to cut the ground out from under the slugs, he has been routed making any further attampt by any smarter more competent prez who may turn up subsequently, well nigh impossible.

Real prez power has been eroded over the decades, which would be a good thing since giving so much power to one human always ends badly, but the issues trump and others confront arise from the unaccountability of just about all the slugs who hold the power which was once within the purview of the executive.

Once trump got control and realised if he wanted to get stuff done, he was going to have to do it himself, he didn't roll up his sleeves and get stuck in to unravelling the system and remodelling it to suit his needs, he did what most other prez's do and hired a bunch of 'capable administrators' belatedly and without any proper consideration of who they were and what interests they served.

His indoctrination by Pa trump meant he didn't trust any of the sleek bureaucrats who normally get these gigs, so trump went to the military - a bad choice as those fuc*ers take pride in their inflexibility and their disdain for anyone who hasn't 'served'.

Most prez's willingly allow their power to be dissipated because the biggest part of their job, getting out there in front of the cameras and lying, taking credit for the good stuff and shifting blame for all the bad, simply doesn't allow time to be devoted to getting across all the mundane garbage they are supposed to take an interest in.

The prezzes like reagan and oblamblam who still retain some cachet with amerikans are the ones that were lucky/wise enough to select senior staff who could stay across all that 'nonsense' and effectively triage what a prez needed to know before he got in front of the cameras.

Even if trump had one of those, which he doesn't, Kelly is abysmal outside of his preferred war bailiwick, he wouldn't listen to him anyway - his facile pride would not allow it.

However the real problem is that agent orange's ineffective flailing over issues like whether it is really in the average amerikan's interest to be at war with the rest of the world has resulted in both the military and the security industries developing effective counters to his claims about their overreach.
Defacto precedents have evolved which would make it tough for anyone else to take on the slugs.

Thanks arsehole.
signed,
The World

Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 20 2018 23:30 utc | 24

Thanks man. You got it.

Posted by: Josh | Sep 20 2018 23:46 utc | 25

The zionist run media attacks are a deliberately weak and failing attack to distract the masses from Trumps pro-zionist agenda and even give this agenda legitimacy.

Posted by: turtle | Sep 20 2018 23:51 utc | 26

The role of the media is pure and simple BS generation and dissemination, nothing else. The BS has several clearly discernible patterns:
1) the one b mentions - the title and the first few paragraphs say one thing, after >90% of the text is passed the truth is mentioned - perfectly matched to the readers attention curve (b you could have mentioned the psych research); the purpose - claim objectivity,
2) the first bits reported about some important event are usually the most truthful because the BS generation machine has a turn-on lag; the morning news 7 am about what happened last night are the most truthful because the masters of narratives do not wake up at 6 am to BS, they come to work comfortably at 9 am; the BS portion increases during the day, for the most watched 8pm and/or 10pm news to become pure unadulterated BS.

And so on, I have more patters but for another discussion.

Posted by: Kiza | Sep 21 2018 0:10 utc | 27

I have to give you a compliment for taking the time to read this MSM drivel. No use arguing the point with the Left because he did it no matter what. Full exoneration, if it came, would mean nothing to them.

The controllers know how stupid the US public is, they are the ones who educated them. Their ivy league temples of education have more money than the Vatican. They are the new age religion, they are the priests of this age.

Posted by: dltravers | Sep 21 2018 0:17 utc | 28

Woodward, "Fear" pg 82-85

"After the security briefing and everyone cleared out, McCabe shut the door to
Priebus’s office. This is very weird, thought Priebus, who was standing by his
desk.
“You know this story in The New York Times?” Priebus knew it all too well.
McCabe was referring to a recent Times story of February 14 that stated, “Phone records and intercepted calls show that members of Donald J. Trump’s 2016
presidential campaign and other Trump associates had repeated contacts with
senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the elections, according to four current and former American officials.”
The story was one of the first bombs to go off about alleged Trump-Russian
connections after Flynn’s resignation.
“It’s total bullshit,” McCabe said. “It’s not true, and we want you to know
that. It’s grossly overstated.”
Oh my God, thought Priebus.
“Andrew,” he said to the FBI deputy, “I’m getting killed.”
The story about Russia and election meddling seemed to be running 24/7 on
cable news, driving Trump bananas and therefore driving Priebus bananas.
“This is crazy,” Trump had told Priebus. “We’ve got to stop it. We need to
end the story.”
McCabe had just walked in with a big gift, a Valentine’s Day present. I’m
going to be the hero of this entire West Wing, Priebus thought.
“Can you help me?” Priebus asked. “Could this knockdown of the story be
made public?”
“Call me in a couple of hours,” McCabe said. “I will ask around and I’ll let
you know. I’ll see what I can do.”
Priebus practically ran to report to Trump the good news that the FBI would
soon be shooting down the Times story.
Two hours passed and no call from McCabe. Priebus called him.“I’m sorry, I can’t,” McCabe said.
“There’s nothing I can do about it. I tried,but if we start issuing comments on individual stories, we’ll be doing statements
every three days.” The FBI could not become a clearinghouse for the accuracy of news stories. If the FBI tried to debunk certain stories, a failure to comment could be seen as a confirmation.

“Andrew, you’re the one that came to my office to tell me this is a BS story,
and now you’re telling me there’s nothing you can do?”
McCabe said that was his position.
“This is insanity,” Priebus said. “What am I supposed to do? Just suffer, bleed out?”
“Give me a couple more hours.”
Nothing happened. No call from the FBI. Priebus tried to explain to Trump,
who was waiting for a recanting. It was another reason for Trump to distrust and
hate the FBI, a pernicious tease that left them dangling.
About a week later on February 24 CNN reported an exclusive: “FBI Refused
White House Request to Knock Down Recent Trump-Russia Story.” Priebus
was cast as trying to manipulate the FBI for political purposes.
The White House tried and failed to correct the story and show that McCabe
had initiated the matter.

Four months later on June 8, Comey testified under oath publicly that the
original New York Times story on the Trump campaign aides’ contacts with
senior Russian intelligence officials “in the main was not true.”

Posted by: daffyDuct | Sep 21 2018 0:21 utc | 29

Regarding North-South Korea Summit which ended today:

https://www.apnews.com/e7a420af69414fac96e8bdea33c4c7f5

Buried in the last paragraph is this:

"According to a statement signed by the countries'defense chiefs, the two Koreas agreed to establish buffer zones along their land and sea borders to reduce military tensions and prevent accidental clashes. They also agreed to withdraw 11 guard posts from the Demilitarized Zone by December and to establish a no-fly zone above the military demarcation line that bisects the two Koreas that will apply to planes, helicopters and drones."

So if true, that's 1) mutual confidence-building measures, 2) withdrawal of military personnel from the DMZ, and most importantly 3) a no-fly zone over the entire DMZ applicable to all aerial vehicles manned or unmanned.

Seems to me as if Trump is getting boxed in. Question is, what will he do?

Posted by: alberich | Sep 21 2018 0:55 utc | 30

1. I agree with the author of this article that there is very little evidence yet of "collusion" by Trump with the Russians at this time - at least that which has been revealed by Mueller. However, Mueller has run a very tight ship without leaks about the investigation. Additionally, the Trump campaign team may have entered (or attempted to enter) into an agreement (conspiracy) with Russian representatives at the Trump Tower meeting - Russian help with the campaign in exchange for easing of sanctions (conspiracy). Mueller has turned key players on the Trump team including Manafort who attended the Trump Tower meeting.

2, In the New York Times story:

".......Today there is no doubt who hacked the D.N.C. and the Clinton campaign. A detailed indictment of 12 officers of Russia’s military intelligence agency, filed in July by Mr. Mueller, documents their every move, including their break-in techniques, their tricks to hide inside the Democrats’ networks and even their Google searches.

snip

The agency, now called the Main Directorate but often referred to by its former abbreviation, the G.R.U., proved agile, brazen and not terribly discreet — the same pattern it would show two years later in the nerve-agent poisoning in England of its former officer, the defector Sergei V. Skripal........"

Between the analysis of Crowdstrike (and several coroborating cybersecurity firms); the offer of dirt on HRC to Papadopoulas by Mifsud; the Trump Tower meeting which explored the "dirt" in the form of stolen emails through contacts with Russians with ties to their government; and the indictment of the IRA and the twelve GRU agents by Mueller, there is no doubt that Russia hacked the DNC and turned over the emails to political ally, Julian Assange. Long time skeptic, Glenn Greenwald, admitted the high liklihood of Russian interference in the US election in an article at the New Yorker:

"......A few days later, on the phone, Greenwald had news. He had “talked to a bunch of people and figured out what I thought, in the most rational way possible,” and now regarded the indictments as genuine evidence of Russian hacking—the first he’d seen in two years. To think otherwise, he said, “you’d pretty much have to believe that Mueller and his team fabricated it all out of whole cloth, which I don’t believe is likely.”....."

Finally, Julian Assange lied when he promoted a conspiracy theory that Seth Rich was the leaker. He also lied when he suggested he did not favor Trump over HRC. He also lied when he said he would return to the US if Obama commuted the sentence of Manning. Assange clearly provided cover for the Russian government - and may have conspired with the government through RT to acquire the emails.

Posted by: craigsummers | Sep 21 2018 1:29 utc | 31

@10Sid2 You don't need to be a physician to note that Trump demonstrates clear signs of dementia. In addition, he probably suffers from some sort of personality disorder (e.g. narcissism plus sociopathy). And almost certainly, his entire adult life has been filled to the brim with underhanded and criminal activities. Nevertheless, the Russiagate narrative being sold to the public by the NYT and other pillars of the mainstream media has been a load of BS from the start. One would think that the story would be on life support by now, but the Times somehow resuscitates it every month or two with a "blockbuster" expose that turns out to be more BS. They seem to have an unlimited supply of the stuff.

Posted by: Rob | Sep 21 2018 1:50 utc | 32

well if i want the mainstream bullshit story line, i sure know who to read, lol..

Posted by: james | Sep 21 2018 2:17 utc | 33

@20, 21

Let's unpack that Mark Twain observation a little and see if it can be made productive.

1. Easy to fool people - Yes, if you use the correct deceitful persuasion.

2. By comparison, harder to convince them they've been fooled - Yes, BUT that's only conditional on all else being equal. In other words, the persuasion and environment should be the same now (when you try to convince them they've been fooled) as they were then (when they were fooled).

To my mind, this enlargement of the equation gives us some scope to play with the variables a little.

Suppose that the persuasion is no longer the same, or else is the same but the change in the environment has altered its strength, either weakening it or strengthening it? Suppose the arguments used to persuade people of a meme continue relatively constant in quality, while ramping up only in volume, or pervasiveness?

Suppose at the same time as the arguments increasing in pervasiveness - but not increasing in quality of persuasiveness - that the environment progressively weakens the strength of general belief that any meme is true, and thus weakens the argumentation through this dystopian degradation?

I have no conclusions. But it seems possible that there are variables here.

~~

I'm a big fan of Mark Twain. And he was certainly correct. But observing that it's harder to persuade people they've been fooled is not the same as saying it's impossible. And this degree of difficulty is not proof against a decaying reality that brings truth home with more force than the original trickery.

Corporate theft is progressively clamping down on all the freedom of speech, movement and action that it can. It doesn't seek reasons, only opportunities.

Fortunately, evil is often done badly, and often redounds to the good in ways unforeseen.

There will always be a struggle, and a hope of winning.

Posted by: Grieved | Sep 21 2018 2:46 utc | 34

Well, looking at the bar's new patrons of late, lets hope Charles Lister wont show up on future Syria posts.. Sigh..

Posted by: Lozion | Sep 21 2018 4:11 utc | 35

Craigsummers, you are mistaken. Assange said he would agree to extradition if Manning was Pardoned. Instead, Obama Commuted the sentence. With a Pardon, all is forgiven legally. A commuted sentence means you're still guilty, put you are deemed time served. Please do not equate the two.

Posted by: willow | Sep 21 2018 4:14 utc | 36

The zionist banking cartel sucked up all the Kapital in 2008 and it is sitting in offshore accounts. The only ones left with Kapital are the Russian oligarchs and mobsters. If you specialize in high end real estate, there is nowhere else to turn.

Posted by: Richard E Langness | Sep 21 2018 4:38 utc | 37

Well, well, well, spying in the USA and subverting both its citizens and congress critters. Another brilliant article by Alain Gresh in Le Monde Diplomatique: The truths that wont be heard.

https://mondediplo.com/2018/09/02israel-lobby

I guess there is no point expecting a reveal all for the documentary but it sure makes fools of the DOJ and FBI and all the Russia haters.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Sep 21 2018 6:18 utc | 38

Willow @34

Assange never had any intention of turning himself in to the DOJ. He never thought that Obama would commute the sentence of Manning so he was just grandstanding - plane and simple. According to the WikiLwaks twitter account, Assange’s condition for turning himself into the US government was based on a “clemency” (Julian Assange says he'll turn himself in if Obama pardons Chelsea Manninghttps://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12939232/julian-assange-wikileaks-chelsea-manning-obama?):

"........If Obama grants Manning clemency, Assange will agree to US prison in exchange -- despite its clear unlawfulness........"

A clemency is not the same as a pardon. A clemency can be a commutation of the sentence (or a pardon). In addition Assange conveniently changed the conditions (with the help of his lawyer) to “immediate” release. According to the Independent:

"......The commitment to accept extradition to the US was based on Ms Manning being released immediately, Mr Assange's lawyer told The Hill. Ms Manning won't actually be released until May – to allow for a standard 120-day transition period, which gives people time to prepare and find somewhere to live, an official told The New York Times for its original report about Ms Manning's clemency......"

Assange likely didn't know the differences between the various legal terms anyway so he was just calling attention to himself. When Obama commuted the sentence of Manning, Assange forfeited his offer. Assange lied. Simple. He never had any intention of turning himself in to US authorities. That should be obvious.

Posted by: craigsummers | Sep 21 2018 7:57 utc | 39

John Helmer: A Gift to the Sultan. Turkish media praises agreement.

TEXT OF RUSSIA-TURKEY AGREEMENT OF SEPTEMBER 17, 2018, ESTABLISHING TURKISH PROTECTORATE OF IDLIB

http://johnhelmer.net/gift-to-the-sultan-text-of-russia-turkey-agreement-of-september-17-2018-establishing-turkish-protectorate-of-idlib/#more-19788

Posted by: T | Sep 21 2018 8:24 utc | 40

Heh, craigsummers @37, tell me why Julian Assange should even consider 'turning himself in to US authorities'? Who are the so-called authorities anyway and what exactly is their authority? Anyone who turns him/herself into such mythological entities would have to be declared irreparably insane. Tell me has Assange been charged with a specific crime apart from bail jumping?

Posted by: Quentin | Sep 21 2018 10:27 utc | 41

This is a rare site where the comments are made by intelligent observers and well worth reading. Not failing to mention that Moon analysis is as good as it gets.

Posted by: Robert McMaster | Sep 21 2018 10:32 utc | 42

Mikeatlarge says:

...proof isn't really necessary for those who promote paranoia

in fact, the whole truth/lies dichotomy is losing all practical value and meaning, and imminent technology will assuage any lingering doubts.

anyone else out there have children? well, the next time you give them a hug, remind them how lucky they are.

Posted by: john | Sep 21 2018 10:39 utc | 43

The Mueller Hoax is unraveling.
Posted by: Sid2 | Sep 20, 2018 3:03:44 PM | 3

The Mueller Hoax is unravelling, and concommittently the NYT is digging in; ergo, the NYT is also unravelling! The NYT will permanently damage its reputation with its own readers.

Posted by: BM | Sep 21 2018 12:38 utc | 44

Who says that we no longer live in a Christian society in which faith is everything?
Posted by: bevin | Sep 20, 2018 3:43:13 PM | 5

We DON'T live in a Christian society. Christians are an endangered species, so rare that few people alive have ever seen them. We live in a House of Mammon society, in which faith is everything.

Posted by: BM | Sep 21 2018 12:41 utc | 45

CraigSummers @31

Your long post which starts by appearing to accept b's article's main point (that there is no real proof of collusion or Russia-gate) then works itself around to this message "there is no doubt that Russia hacked the DNC and turned over the emails to political ally, Julian Assange".

However, there is doubt because there is no real proof. However much you want it to be true, doesn't make it so.

Your faith in Mueller it's matched in the faith a number of people have in Qanon. Essentially you lack objectivity.

Posted by: ADKC | Sep 21 2018 14:14 utc | 46

@41

".......Heh, craigsummers @37, tell me why Julian Assange should even consider 'turning himself in to US authorities'?......"

You will need to talk to Assange and his legal team about that. Assange made the offer. He also offered to come to the US in an immunity deal. Immunity is "a doctrine of international law that allows an accused to avoid prosecution for criminal offences".  What criminal offense does Assange (or his lawyers) believe he committed?

Posted by: craigsummers | Sep 21 2018 14:28 utc | 47

@john #43

anonymous would be kind of prepared for it: AIBs are environment when no single message have any inherited veracity

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 21 2018 15:23 utc | 48

@jrkrideau #19

But that exactly proves it!
The GRU thug was full of height to his team KGB rivals and tried to frame them!

Posted by: Arioch | Sep 21 2018 15:57 utc | 49

Well, b, you must be doing something right. In the past few weeks the trolls have rolled in like the high tide.

Posted by: Tom in AZ | Sep 21 2018 18:32 utc | 50

@adkc - don't feed this bozo...

Posted by: james | Sep 21 2018 18:36 utc | 51

America is a free country. You are free to determine if you want to be screwed by the Democrats or the Republicans.

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 22 2018 8:42 utc | 52

Craigsummers is an obvious troll. He has opinions that are different from most people here, but his form of presentation of his ideas is confrontative and clearly aimed at creating a row.
God knows what he seeks at MoA, besides being an annoying distraction.
I do engage in a meaningful and becoming discussion, but outright propaganda posts are trolling.
Craigsummers just reitterates common MSM BS. He is a paid for third rate shill.
Ignore him. No independent opinion = Troll.

Posted by: Den Lille Abe | Sep 22 2018 12:53 utc | 53

Jack Rabbit @ 2 answers the question ‘why’ with a good list, ex. 1) Protect Hillary after she lost the election. (…) Yes.

bevin @ 5 sums up, we have entered a post political era in which policy discussions and debates are forgotten and smears and false accusations take their place. Yes.

The accusation, shaming, and punishment become self-fulfilling aims. Completely independently of any other calculation.

Ex. the arrest, imprisonment of Maria Butina, the sexy Russian gun-toting, US-loving ‘modern’ networker. She is a strong supporter of Navalny and opposes Putin I have read (Putin is against liberalizing gun laws.) The Right to Bear Arms org? movement? in Russia is straight-up oppo (imho.) I have no clue about what she has being doing day by day or night, but for the US to pick on such a figure is contradictory, it makes no sense.

She would have made a smashing poster pic for Putin-oppo which is obviously what she was counting on! Better than Pussy Riot with their anti-religion.

So, vague, crossed, political motives exist (see Jack, others, Reid 7), but hysteria and shaming (following bevin) are taking a rapid grip.

Trump proposed to mitigate the the US’ plight (failing empire), by allying with another superpower, the best (land, oil, other ressources, small pop, subservient to a degree, etc.) not to *defeat* the other - China - but to create a multi-polar world ‘balance’ where the USA would still play a tremendous, maybe even leading, role. Core US PTB, Elites, Corps, refused.

The reasons why are so multiple and counter-intuitive Idk how to fit that all together.

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 22 2018 17:14 utc | 54

Mikeatlarge #23 - I'm not assuming anything. b has an earlier post showing that the Internet (something) Agency was a Russian troll farm working a commercial scam to raise some funds. At the same time, such activities can easily be used for the purposes I mentioned. Again, why not, the US does it to many others. Or is that what you dispute? Do you believe that the Russians, Israelis, Europeans, Chinese, and others don't use social media to influence popular opinion for their benefit?

Why do you seem to think such things aren't possible? Or, do I misunderstand you?

I never said that foreign efforts, of any kind, had a measurable effect on the 2016 election. Hillary lost that election all by herself. (Horrible person for a candidate with a lousy history, no policy, bad strategy, wasted $1 billion, yeah, it was all her.)

Also, I need proof that ascribing actions to Russian people or organizations means, by definition, that they are being directed by Putin, as you allege.

Posted by: John Zelnicker | Sep 23 2018 6:51 utc | 55

Thanks for the great article. This is a rare site where the comments are made by intelligent observers and well worth reading. Not failing to mention that Moon analysis is as good as it gets.

Posted by: Peter | Sep 25 2018 8:14 utc | 56